DON'T ENGAGE THE HIPS... Instead Do This!
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- There has been sooooooooo much information on the hips coming out recently that I felt like we had to put out a more comprehensive video on how they work in the throw. In short, the hips will probably take care of themselves if you BRACE properly. Other than that it will be impossible for them to work correctly.
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0:00 - Intro
0:38 - Engage the hips camp
2:33 - Hopefully helpful example
4:11 - The inevitable end to rotation first
5:13 - The good way
5:43 - Good Style 1
7:01 - Pro example
8:29 - Style 1 action items
8:40 - Good Style 2
9:30 - Pro example 2
10:46 - Style 2 action items
11:08 - Which style should I use?
12:20 - Caution
12:50 - Groove with us - Sport
When I reference the gravity/leverage style and the speed/extended plant style I am using some of my verbiage as well as common verbiage from those I see as in those style camps. This only represents my view of where these coaches stand based on conversations I have had with them or from consuming their content so as always, take my representation of their views with a massive grain of salt.
Putting people into nice little boxes, while making it easier for the consumer, has the tendency to oversimplify or misrepresent views.
I have a personal relationship with all the coaches I listed (except Leon) and did my best to represent them objectively.
well said josh
How does one get in contact to get form review/coaching. It would be for 2 ppl.
@@campitts9356 that’s done via Patreon. The link for that is in the description below the video
@@OverthrowDiscGolf I'm on Patreon, I'm subscribed. I see your content here. I should use it: LOL
I'm cross dominant. Regular footing and placement don't work for me. You try using your off foot like your dominant one when your throwing arm is on the other side. I actually took a lot from Stokely and from Olympic discus throwing. Some of my footwork looks more like a bowler or tennis player. The important thing is that I've found an effortless throwing style for me. It won't work for you. I agree there are points of commonality in all throws, even if you are armless and throw with your feet, but past the basics it all depends on how your own body works.
Jaani's "don't hit the moose" advice clicked with me. I noticed I was an early rotator from watching myself in slow-mo, facing forwards at release. My last round I really focused on stopping myself hard behind a strong brace leg and keeping my head down staying behind the hit until the disc is gone. I was balaced on my front foot after follow-through. I had one throw that flew at least 50ft past my best throw on a hole, into a headwind. I was stoked.
I never knew bracing was a thing until I saw one of your previous videos, it pretty much blew my mind. I'm working toward making my backhand clean and controlled... and less like a toddler throwing a tantrum. I'm now somewhere in the middle. You're all fantastic.
I feel like I’m past the toddler stage barely. Lol. Still prepubescent
Some of us must self-coach because it is just too costly. Your videos have made a difference in my quest to improve my disc golf game. Thank you, Josh and crew!
Yep. I get it. We’re in an interesting time where it is necessary for a bunch of people to self coach so hopefully I can assist in your navigation through it
I commented on the arming video and told about putting into words the most important aspect of the form. And here it was, I just found it! Very nice, thanks!
That's a great setup you got there!
Thanks for yet another great video.
I'm going to experiment with all three styles.
Thanks for doing this to address the different form. We definitely need to have a word for each of these forms.
Good info. I was working on engaging my hips but after watching this video and reviewing my own. I see that I use the longer brace step. I can see the hips engage as I pull. Yay.
Once again, another great video. I’m figuring out which style is best for me and I’m loving how you broke it down clearly. Keep up the great content.
Fantastic video, so cool to see you evolve as a coach.
Much appreciated Josh!
This is great overall! One big point about why "rotate the hips forward" isn't really going to create power is that the body is already moving forward, so there's nothing for the hips to push against to create power. This is just physics!
On another note, my two big lightbulb moments in form were -- first (second chronologically), when I decided to try to do absolutely nothing with my arm, to completely relax my shoulder,, and I found the whip. Second, and more relevant here, was to think about pushing my lead hip back with the brace, and I found the brace! I just hadn't understood that I needed to do *that* with my hips. I thought that I was supposed to stay facing the side of the teepad and then in the follow through my hips would turn to face the target, so I was basically stuck with muscling the disc. I didn't realize that the brace is supposed to turn your hips. So, saying all that, I think it can be a good thing to start out actively thinking that you need to turn or push (and I think "push" is the better term here) the lead hip back with the brace. Of course, we eventually want to get to not thinking about this at all, but baby steps first!
Lead hip back towards butt cheek or back leg?
@@nickytfor3 back towards your trailing leg- or rather back on a line opposite your momentum
I'm trying hard to hit this "Ah-ha" moment... I feel like I can hit it without a disc in hand... once I put a disc in hand, it goes out the window...thnx!@@micdavey
oh man, I'm working through the same problem! I think the biggest thing is that it takes time. I'm very inconsistent with a disc, but pretty consistent without one. I try to drill as much as I can, both slow and a little faster. I also do drills just holding like a business card in my hand. It's not a disc but it's not nothing where you can just relax everything shoulder down. The thing for me seems to be focusing on keeping my shoulder relaxed so that I don't pull with it, but still grip the disc. The more relaxed overall I am on the course the better, and when I throw well my friends say that it looks like I'm not even trying but the disc will go as far or farther than when I muscle one out there. It is at least obvious to me now that we use the body to sling the arm --I know that's the way so I'll keep practicing until I can do it well. I also recently got a net, so will be throwing into that as much as possible. I guess the takeaway is to just keep at it! @@nickytfor3
Awesome breakdown! I appreciate so much, when you show examples of different forms so we can find our way through the weeds!
This was very clarifying for me. Thanks!
Absolute best disc golf tutorial video ever made, seriously, Josh is a real coach and truly understands biomechanics.
It really isn't. DG Spin Doctor and Leon Sonnleitner are just about the only 2 youtube coaches teaching proper technique.
@@guyincognito. I'll check them out, thanks.
Thank you for this clear discussion. My take is that video analysis is key. It is difficult to bridge teaching a sensation vs a specific movement.
I believe it is difficult to coach with general advice. As a coach you might advice a particular student to rotate their belt buckle as a cue to engage the hips, over emphasis on a particular movement. As a player you might feel like you are rotating forward.
It comes together with video to see what you are doing vs what you think or feel.
With that said, it has been helpful to listen to pros describe what they think or feel when they throw.
love this style of video
I needed this video 5 years ago :P
That’s so awesome, you gave a shoutout to our young Austrian Leon Sonnleitner 🇦🇹✨🥏⛳️. Also the comparison with Simon’s form and the high quality analysis was great to watch. 💙🩵🤍
Josh, you sir are a genius!! ❤❤
Awesome video! Seeing these forms compartmentalized is great for understanding what coaches are actually teaching and how they might not overlap. Any thoughts on comparing active (muscle added/"pull") vs passive (whip) arm techniques?
That video is on deck
I agree with everything except comments which suggest "it just happens." I tend to feel if it was in any way natural or "just happened" so many of us would not be struggling. I do believe that if you have any type of training in other sports, that the motion is so similar, that your body remembers and transitions naturally. For those without a sports background which utilized a similar motion, we have to teach our bodies first. I say this only because I've been struggling with these concepts for almost 20 years and it's only in the last year or two since you and others have been hitting these topics that I've really been able to learn these movements and improve my form.
I found Leon's tip to get the hip backward and out of the way really helpful because it pulls your foot back onto your heel and allows the foot to rotate after the release. If you put your foot down and push up with your whole foot, you can dang near twist your knee off. You can also pivot on the ball of your foot, which is really inefficient form.
The discussions you and other coaches have had lately have been instrumental in the development of a lot of players, so I'm quite appreciative of your time and effort in putting out these videos.
Overall I think a lot of what the "it just happens" people are usually *trying* to say is that, a lot of the time, people tend to get caught up in trying to focus on a particular motion as the main thing they're thinking about when that motion is actually something that will happen naturally if the overall throw is done correctly. Like, for me, at one point (very early on) I thought that focusing on rotating my lead foot out on the heel during the throw was something I needed to specifically think about, when in reality it's just something that generally happens naturally if you're doing everything else right.
I think they're right, but terrible at explaining things, largely because of a deep sports background like you mentioned. If you've been doing something since you were 4 or 5 years old (and receiving continuing instruction in that thing), you often don't realize that something you consider to be a "fundamental motion" that you "just do" (like a full baseball swing/throw, or popping up on a surfboard, or even non-sports things like connecting your breath support to your voice when singing, which I've taught a lot) often needs to be broken down quite a bit more granularly for people that have never learned that motion (that's usually a bit more complex than we assume). If you're learning fresh, you usually need to learn what each of these parts feels like individually before you can even think about connecting them into that one major motion (and then it takes a good deal of practice to truly feel like you've linked them all together into a seamless move).
It's definitely one of the reasons that some people who are naturally gifted at something are often not the best teachers of that thing (and on the flip side, why someone who had to put in a lot of work breaking something down to teach themselves can be a far better coach than someone that's a lot more talented at actually doing the thing). Obviously that's not a hard rule though - plenty of talented people do take the time to really deep dive on fundamentals and want to know exactly why the things they do work/don't work and can be really good teachers...but not all of them.
@@vocalimpactplays217 well said.
Seen the lead leg push back once before. It had to have been you because you're the one I watch nowadays. It's good to see you expanding on this.
Damn it Josh, you are a genius. It's easy to listen to a pro's advice, but a lot of times, it seems like they don't know how to explain what they're doing because they FEEL it so much. Can't teach feel very well. I plan on dictating my form in the off season and I will be using your instruction first and foremost. Thanks for relating to the normal players.
Dissecting not dictating.
I think you're right on this. There appears to be a lot of leeway in the way certain things are done, but also a lot of things that are not optional. There's debate on certain order of operations, but other things like planting before you throw is not really up for discussion. It would be nice to see a list of these things and see if the content creators can agree on some number of things. The rest can be sorted out over time.
I have been waiting weeks to put this and the Evan Smith video to the test. This weekend I played two rounds.
My shoulder has never felt better post-round and my throw has jumped an entire stability slot. Super excited to spend this spring working on counterweight and bracing. Horizontal seems to work best for me.
Would love some content/ideas on protecting leading knee and hip joint, or the pieces of form that prevent injuries. Rotating the plant foot is always awkward for me but getting my weight on the heel seems inevitable?
that's and awesome setup with the screen!
Josh you saved my life with this vid! I'm one of those self-coaching idiots, but I pretty much stick to you and Spin Doctor. SD pumped Leon's new video and I went out to the field Tues morning to try to "add more hips" into my swing, and it was the worst field work session of my life. Felt like i had completely forgotten how to throw anything at all. Told myself to shake it off and i'd come back to it in a couple days. Then this vid came up perfectly timed and gave me the confidence to really genuinely FORGET all of that crap and go back to focusing on sinking into my brace. This morning's round was FIRE. Felt like i had more power and aim than ever before.
(to be clear, i don't think Leon is "wrong," just that his feel and my feel are so different that trying to mentally add hips was a disaster for me)
Self coaching is tough but necessary for some. Glad you found the style and cues that work for you. I’ll echo for clarity that i obviously don’t think Leon is wrong, just didn’t mesh with your style.
Sounds like you're throwing by retracting the scapula and swinging the upper arm out. Try keeping the upper arm stationary, perpendicular to the torso and letting the snap come from the forearm. It should feel like you're pushing the disc at the target when you release. A lot of people really don't understand the hip engagement in relation to the plant, it's something that eventually just clicks and if it ruins your throw then another part of your form is wrong.
+1 for horizontal style!
Good stuff.
this feels very much like your treatise on whether the off-arm initiates the swing or not, and i really appreciate the approach you've taken here as well. of course the hips are involved, but they are not the key. you've also re-ignited an old curiosity that i feel like i still haven't quite figured out: if i'm throwing like example 2 (horizontally bracing), will the length of my final stride be proportional to the speed/power i intend to generate, or is it the same every time? awesome work as always; i love seeing the OT notification pop up and knowing i'm about to get schooled
The length of your final stride is 💯 tied to the speed you’re bringing in
I have been having hip issues, lower back to high right hip pain. I always thought that firing instantly and creating lag the moment you fully plant was how you generate the most power. After watching this i think im somewhere in the middle and maybe firing too quickly. This is another video i desperately needed. Thanks guys!
I think Josh explained firing hips too early is correct for some, but firing hips at the right time can still be correct depending on your style. Leon, who’s mentioned in this video mentions, which is contradictory to what Josh mentions here, that firing your hips at the point your forearm releases is the right timing. DG Spin Doctor mentions the same. All while not intentionally not pushing through the front brace leg as mentioned to me by DG Spin Doctor. I think both styles emphasizes a late acceleration, but rely on different timings and biomechanics.
Thank you master
There are so many "form coaches" on YT and many are preaching completely opposing philosophies when it comes to beckhand. This caused me to become quite confused because I didn't know who to believe. For example, slingshot disc golf teaches the opposite of this haha. But after lots of trial and error, your technique has clicked with me the best, and my throw feels natural and my body doesn't feel like I am forcing anything. Thank you!
I tell everyone to watch Simon from a drive where the camera shot is waist up. From the front or from the side or behind. Doesn't matter. Any drive from the teepad where it's a camera shot from waist up it looks like Simon's floating like a ghost. That's what I want Josh. Make me flow like water
This is a much more mature and respectful way to have this conversation than your last attempt. Thank you. 🙌
Bad coaches/techniques need to be called out. I personally have tried some of sling shots "expert" advice and gotten hurt. It sucks because it is popular, but a lot of it is wrong, or worse, dangerous.
@@nathanwilson7929 one of the few things that OT and SS agree on is that you should pick one coach and exclusively listen to them. Im sorry you got injured but its no surprise if you were just taking “some” advice.
It's these types of videos that I think set you apart from others.
Watching the slow motion footage of Drew and Simon makes me laugh to myself remembering a time when people would say "keep the shoulders closed until the arm comes through". Two of the farthest throwers in the game absolutely do not do this.
The brace mechanic you're mentioning here is something I remember hearing Trevor Bauer discuss in a video answering fan questions about pitching. Something to do with planting and envisioning pushing the hip back and around with the brace foot rather than thinking about rotating around it or doing something special with the hips. If your "front" hip is pushed back, the "back" hip has nowhere to go but forward and through.
Interesting that you put Leon in the horizontal brace camp. I understand he doesn't seem to drop into the throw the same way Drew does, but he does put a large emphasis on initiating the throw with your plant foot pushing into the ground to get the front hip back.
Yep. There is a comment thread on that video between him and Seabas22 where he firmly places himself in the horizontal camp as well as his instruction on not pressing down but back
Is it on yt video? What is the seabas yt name? Would love to read that conversation.
@@newsYk it’s a comment on Leon’s hips CZcams video. The name is Seabas22
In discussing this Leon says "you want to push into the ground almost sideways" and explicitly contrasts this to the pushing-down approach. It's exaggerated, but his demonstration of his bracing action (starting at about 5.50 in his video) has his plant foot literally sliding on the ground, about as horizontal as it could possibly be.
Best vid
I was actually trying to focus on engaging the hips first for a while, and a few months ago, I actually started hurting my shoulder because of that lag you see. It was putting a lot of unnecessary whiplash and strain on my shoulder joint.
Been there and done that
This is such a hard topic to get across and discuss. I still firmly believe you need to engage the hips, but I think what your video is trying to get at is that you aren't 'spinning' the hips or really trying to 'rotate' them, which is what I was certainly trying to do for so long. I definitely think your methodology and teaching style here is on point, but to say you aren't engaging the hips is probably not entirely true. I forget where I first heard this, maybe on DGcoursereview forum, but somebody noted that it's not a twist and you aren't trying to spin your rear hip forward, you're just trying to push/clear your front hip backwards. This definitely requires hip activation, along with the glutes, and when it really clicks, you'll start to feel the soreness after some heavy field work.
They noted a REALLY good example of an NFL QB warming up and really exaggerating and demonstrating this motion. I think watching this really helped it click for me.
czcams.com/video/s5Smep-Xp0Q/video.html
Yep, i talk a bit about it in the leverage based style. The “hip engagement” I’m hoping people stop is the first kind mentioned in the video where people try to rotate the hips forward. You can definitely clear the front hip by pressing up with the leg.
00:29 📝 There are three approaches to hip movement in disc golf: one emphasizes rotating the hips forward, the second focuses on a down-up movement, and the third involves an extended front foot for hip rotation.
04:16 📝 Emphasizing rapid hip rotation forward while keeping the hand back may not be an effective technique, as it can lead to loss of balance and accuracy.
07:43 📝 A gravity-based style involves a down-up motion, where you drop down into your front leg and then push up, allowing the hips to naturally clear during the throw.
10:38 📝 Another style involves an extended front foot to kick the hip back for rotation. This method is often seen in players like Simon Lizotte.
11:19 📝 The choice between these hip movement styles depends on your body type, experience, and preferences. Beginners may benefit from the gravity-based style, while the extended front foot style may require more hip mobility and experience.
12:40 📝 It's essential to be cautious when consuming disc golf content about hip movement and not overcomplicate your form, especially if you're self-coaching.
So I haven't even watched the whole video yet. But I wanted to say, I just played a round where I focused on turning my hips first, and a lot of my shots were going to the right, like you say. 😊
That's because you're pulling the throw instead of letting the snap come from the forearm at the elbow joint. When you release the disc your upper arm should be pointing directly out in front of your body, not out to the side with the scapula retracted which is what you're currently doing.
Josh, thank you for the content you provide. I’m 61 started playing about a year ago. My right knee just can’t take the hard plant that I know is needed to reach more distances. Best drives are around 250. Mostly throw from a standstill. What advise could you provide for the older folks. Thank you.
Knees are tough. If you know that you can’t have a solid plant, then there is going to be a necessary amount of “spinning out“. So unfortunately, the brace is probably off the table. But, I definitely threw over 400 feet while spinning out And you can get some distance
If you plant like Josh shows in this video then you will definitely get knee injuries. The plant shouldn't ever be hard, you should just be extending the foot out to create a stable platform for your body to throw from. Josh shows the plant with almost the full weight of his body over the front foot, but actually the foot should be extended out away from the body (see Drew's drive at 7:45) creating the 'brace' that you pivot against. If you brace correctly there's no stress on the knee.
@@guyincognito. big disagree on this one
Youre awesome bro thank you ❤❤
This clip addresses something that's been bothering me. Simon commented on one of his videos where he was playing a round with somebody like me "You're over rotating." His response was what I'd say "I know"
I hope he was able to deprogram and reprogram. I hope I can too. Mikey's demonstration throw, that's me. My left foot comes around and I feel it in my arm. But deprogramming and reprogramming.... how do we transition from method 1 to 2 and or 3. How do we break me down and rebuild me correct. Instincts tell me this would be very helpful. Give us a drill boss:)
You should mention in the chat how much film you have studied. i think that stat will really shine with videos too!
That would involve a lot of counting haha
It's interesting that in contrasting the horizontal and vertical styles there seems to be less discussion than there used to be about crow hopping. Perhaps this is because there are so many hybrid styles. Seppo's run up has a pronounced hop, and yet he gets impressively horizontal behind his brace.
I come from a center fielder baseball background, in going through a motion that I would throw from outfield to home, I crow hop, (I don't in disc golf hence the baseball reference) but a crow hop isn't very vertical. For me, you do drop down into your back leg a bit, but then take that momentum and explode horizontally into the plant foot. I'm not dropping onto my foot after a hop.
Paul is very horizontal with his crow hop wear as someone like Philo is very vertical with it. Seems to be some diversity even in that
@@blakeh1234 Makes sense, and I guess that was kind of the point I was going for. Seems like a few years ago the hopping style would typically be described as 'vertical.' GG and, famously, Steve Brinster have dramatic vertical crow (or crow-like) hops and get explosive power from them. But if you look closely, many other players have at least a little skip or hop in their run up, and a lot of them use it to kick forward rather than up and down.
Lag literally can't come from collapsing your knee inward, it comes from reversing the tension you create through a proper reachback (which is also reached from rotation). I think that the problem is in nomenclature and thinking rotation ONLY happens at the hips. Your hips rotate and your hips are connected to your lumbar spine, which rotates. Your lumbar spine is connected to your thoracic spine, and this also rotates. It is this last part here that people really struggle with (myself included, I just started throwing again after ~12 years off but i've been consistently gaining like 75 feet a week). The """"reach back"""" is also rotation, just not exclusively from your hips.
I am a strength and conditioning expert and I'm really excited about trying to make some content about specific programs to apply to disc golf as well as just thinking about these processes in other ways, which are ultimately saying the same stuff for a "correct" throw. I like your content a lot and I think you do a great job of explaining advanced physiological concepts via analogies like throwing a bucket of water, etc. I think you also might be interested in watching/reading about/learning about high level javelin technique and the "block" for more analogies about the front leg. Thanks for all the content!!
to expand a little- I think something like "belt buckle forward" is a great analogy *if you have the physical literacy to know the most efficient and powerful way to get your belt buckle forward*, which as you addressed is via creating this strong block and rotating around it.
I subbed to you to see what type of content you created. I think that's a niche with more room in the disc golf content space. Yeah basically the head, shoulders, hips, legs all rotate, and the spine is essentially what everything is rotating around. It's all those details (generic to specific) in between that are harder to nail down, from timing and order of operations, to positioning and placement. The coil is a result of it, among other things.
@@NickCarroll give me a little bit and it will be up and running! I'm really excited about it
@@CFagan heck yeah!
Since you mentioned jevelin, here is a fun fact:
several elite jevelin throwers throw disc golf discs in training but don't play on actual courses
(Sorce: Olympia gold medalist Thomas Röhler on the german pidcast ParTherapie)
Wow, gonna have to try that tip on pushing into the ground to get that hip rotation. I’ve always been under the assumption that it was a conscious effort every time the hips have to rotate, I’ll have to try. Thanks for these videos, they make a huge difference to those who have limited time and resources to be efficient and avoid injuries.
These hips be Lyin’ 😂😂
I may have misinterpreted Leon's video on hips but it doesn't look like he's striding super far or says to stride super far. His emphasis is on the hip fire mentality of pull the front hip back instead of the back hip forward. Drew's stride is as long (if not seemingly longer) than Simons in the two snippets you put up here. To me it also looks like drew is pulling his front hip back more than pushing 'up' to have it rotate at 8:08 slowmo from behind, it looks like his front hip is starting to pull back before the front leg looks like it's 'pushing'. Also drew's stride being that long would account for a natural 'drop' due to the length of stride. But it also may be an optical illusion due to the camera angle on the two. I could be totally off but that's what it looked like to me. Great vid!
He talks about it around the 5 min mark of his video. Emphasizes the horizontal move and demonstrates against the vertical
@@OverthrowDiscGolf yeah 100% but he doesn't imply or suggest striding out 'as far as you can'. if a stride is, lets say... 4 feet. Going up and down to plant 4 feet and gliding horizontally 4 feet are the same end result... 4 feet. That's why i mentioned the snippets of drew and simon, their strides look about the same in actual stride length.
It was at 2:20 that I knew I needed to finish this video lol. Many of my shots pull around 45 degrees off line..
Thx Josh! If it is worth any encouragement to you, I have gained near 100ft on my LHBH golf lines since your backhand series. I came from around 300 feet to consistent 380 but haven't yet broken the 400ft mark but it's a dream of mine to throw 400ft golf lines! Appreciate all you and your team do at Overthrow!
Congratulations!
You're shanking because you're fully extending the arm and pulling the upper arm out to the side. Look at Josh at 2:22 with the upper arm out to the side and show me a pro whose arm is beyond perpendicular to the torso at the point of release. If you throw with the forearm (like the pros do) and not the upper arm (like Josh does at 2:22) then you won't pull your shots any more.
@@guyincognito.Garrett Guethie comes to mind …
Also, spike. Did you create another account just for me?
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Garret Gurthie also throws with correct technique and does not pull with the upper arm, I can't find a single drive of his where his upper arm has gone into extension before the release so I don't know why you mention him as an example. Do you actually coach people that upper arm extension is just a 'style'?
Standstills I can stay behind my throw and it feels really good. When I do a walk up though, its like ring around the rosie time for some reason. like my body doesn't know how to get rid of that energy without falling over my front foot.
Probably a bad brace and spinning on the front foot instead of stopping
For style 1 i am slightly confused. Do you actively press your leg into the ground? Because when I do that I can tell it straightens my leg into my knee and over time will not be good on my knees. However when I do this i do feel that my hips jolt forward however it is so fast that I am unable to feel a connection to my upper body.
You do. And that upward press actually takes the weight off the foot by the time it wants to pivot to avoid injury (when done well of course).
Okay that makes sense. The pivot disperses the weight off the knee. Another thing In gibsons form, it looks like he starts his throw with the uncoiling of his upper body and uses the lower body to aid in the speed of his arm? Or am I missing something? Because to me It seems as if the brace brings your arm into the power pocket and then you actively pull the disc with the brace to not avoid leaking power.
@@ranndomz Yeah there’s a little bit of a nuanced conversation that happens with how does your hand get into the pocket, but it’s not gonna happen totally on its own.
Neat shirt
It is all in the hips!
I am of your opinion with your direction with the technique.
But i think version one (Drew) and version two (Simon) are the same. The only difference between what there do is, Drew starts with extended legs and Simon with bent legs. This is why Drew goes down.
Keep it up, I like your content and how you present it
I found this video very interesting. As a female player I've always heard that our power comes from our hips so I've tried to engage my hips more and shift them forward. Does any of this information change when it comes to women? Or is there one (between the horizontal or vertical) that you think works best for female players?
So it depends on the lady a little bit. The same principles apply here regarding speed versus leverage. You can see for example Paige Pierce using more of the speed based version while Catrina Allen’s old form is more leverage based. I get into a few more specifics in our “Ladies Only” video. Have you watched that one by chance?
@@OverthrowDiscGolf I have watched that video since I have a problem with rounding around! And I have actually been trying out two of the styles: the one where your arm comes through higher and the swing style. I think (think being key here) Tattar has her arm come through above her chest. I never noticed it til your video so I've been trying that out and I like it. I also like the swing style too but I think I've been focusing on shifting my hips rather than the leverage concept you mentioned here. Ill have to look at Paige's form to see the speed style in action!
@@musingsofarover Yep. And Paige can get through speed wise because of how she is built. So you’ll have to mess with it and see what works for your body.
Would love to see an analysis of Kristian Kouaksa, dude throws easy over 220m. He has a lot more flat to up motion which just seems the most energy efficient and easy on the body.
Same
His 'how to throw really far' video is pretty amazing. It makes me think of some other folks whose throws are called 'effortless.' Certainly he is very smooth and I mean it as no criticism, but those 700 foot drives come with like a nine step run up (he is really running) and a massive grunt. He vaults right over his brace as well.
I think sometimes we say 'effortless' when we really mean 'smooth and athletic.'
Would you liken the gravity style to a ground stroke in Tennis? Seems very similar to coming up through the ball.
Yep. Specifically the one hand backhand
Any tips on not air bouncing when doing style 1 (Drew Gibson)?
Would have to see it but check your swing plane. We have a video on it called “swing plane”
@@OverthrowDiscGolf thank you, will check it out❤️
I know this might seem silly and dangerous. But can you try and make a video where you somehow throw on a slippery surface. I think it will show if you power come from your legs, or you throw against your bodyweight.
I would definitely pull a groin muscle
How big of a factor is the orientation of the plant foot in either style? Is it a must that it stays closed or is slightly open acceptable?
Slightly open (like toes pointing slightly towards the target) is generally not acceptable.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf does that just help with giving the hips more range of motion basically?
@@nealeash1445 it gives you more stopping power for that front foot.
Interesting that Drew Gibson was trying to get Bodanza to shorten his last step and instead push down. Seems like he was just trying convert Bodanza from a more Simon-like long last step to his (Gibson's) own bracing style.
Yeah probably a good move for Bodanza all things considered
Good to hear my hips be fine, my plant, mehhh need more lateral stopping power, or come into it less momentum.
Im just an explosive guy, its real hard for me to wire my upper body exsplosive and not have my legs come with it. But I need less run up speed (probably) till i figure a more effective plant cause i get decent transfer from plant but not great.
I have 2 artificial hips. Which style would you recommend
Oh goodness. I wish I can make a recommendation, but I would really have to see what your limitations are on that front.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Don’t have a ton of limitations. I’m 48 and 900+ rated. Play a lot. I can shoot a video over. I need to come see ya in person for a lesson, lol.
Teaching myself is tough. I never listen and I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Bahahaha! Great comment
Uh oh; I'm going to be an asshole here but I've been struggling with heel down rotation sequence from reachback. If it were me at 1 min 15 sec in I would self-critique that I rotated prior to the weight shift. I make mistakes all the time. Did you pivot early coach?
That was an example of a poor swing where I was trying to pivot early.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf But to me, it's like when I poured the coffee and then stopped thinking about it and low and behold throwing nose up. Your recent video reminded us (not just me) we forgot morning tea
How I can gat that system??Where you Buy it??
Which part of the system?
All System.
All System. It’s because I started to play this game like three years ago and at 1 AM trying to improve the game but I want to monitoring my arm..
@@joelcolonrivera237 The screen and projector are linked in our description. The tech disc is also linked and is what is giving us the statistical analysis that you’re seeing
It seems to me that I anticipate excessively the hips rotation and I lose part of the energy before the snap... is it possible?
Very possible
Fat guy: downward brace, skinny guy: horizontal extended plant! Got it.
In the end, it's about being hip. "runs away from dad joke" 🙂
Aw man I didnt make the list of channels that support the brace fir hip turn?? 😢😂
I just don’t have you in a camp yet is all lol
@OverthrowDiscGolf I'm probably not there yet. In principle, I align more with Jaani. But in practice, I'm not sure
@@discsmd right. Once you mess with it a bit longer you’ll figure out where you stand
Josh, maybe I’m just confusing what you’re saying, but Leon and DG Spin Doctor have contrary advice to what you’re mentioning in this video of them doing. I was just speaking with DG Spin Doctor yesterday, clarifying what Leon was mentioning and how DG Spin Doctor was teaching, and it isn’t what you’re mentioning here.
I’m not here to start drama. I just want to learn more, but I’m feeling there’s some battle amongst coaches on YT now. Leon and DG Spin Doctor, according to what they mentioned to me just yesterday, mentioned there’s no straightening of the leg, rather an active movement of the front hip backwards.
I’ve been in the community long enough to know some people don’t know what they do and what they teach, but here’s two people saying opposite of what you’re saying, one of which throws 600 feet, and they’re in agreement with each other. This just leads to more confusion for people like me. I get there’s many ways to throw, but there should be some discussion amongst YTubers if they’re going to mention other coaches throwing styles.
Now I feel like the bad guy, just pointing out what I’ve heard directly from their mouths being different from what you mentioned here. I still like the gravity assisted style Seabass teaches, and you mention here as well. Keep being you, but please if you’re going to cross into other peoples teaching, do some additional work into understanding it before rushing a release of it, as this video is contradictory of Leon’s and DG Spin Doctors teaching. I don’t mean any ill will, and I still like much of your teaching here on YT.
Hey,
I do think there is some confusion on your part. There is no battle amongst me and anyone in either of the two style camps. As I stated in the video I use both regularly.
I talk to DG Spin Doctor all the time and would consider him a friend. Trust me, if I was misrepresenting his view he would tell me. Lol
I don’t know how to say this without sounding arrogant, but this isn’t something I put out just Willy Nilly; it was a cultivation of years of study and hours upon hours of conversations with other coaches. This was the third recording of this video, the first of which was recorded before Jaani or Leon had posted their videos. I’m trying to consolidate schools of thought that work here and identify people that teach in that style. There were no shots fired against anyone I named. Again, no shots fired.
The only person I named that I haven’t had literal hours of conversation with was Leon.
This video is not a contradiction of Jaani or Leon’s videos, but further supports their points. Perhaps different verbiage, but not conflicting certainly.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf just going to slide in on your ... uh, comments? Maybe you should have a podcast episode with Leon and touch base with him, and maybe with you and him going over these topics together, it might make for an interesting conversation. Thank you for your consideration.
@@NickCarroll that would be fun.
This seems odd to me too. What I'm saying is, that you don't need to actively straighten the leg, as in lock the knee. That is not the way to move the hip. That may happen as you move the hip and push down, but that is not something to aim for.
Also, while technically you can feel the brace being a horizontal push back, it's quite impossible to not push down also since the leg has to work between the ground and your body, so there will always be both vertical and horizontal push.
@@dgspindoctor Maybe I’m not just the type to understand then. I’ve watched Leon’s vids, and he says not to push through the leg, rather twist through the hip. Josh here, says differently.
I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I’m just trying to digest what I’m hearing and seeing. Let’s try this; if you’re really wanting to help everyone learn the basic mechanics behind launching discs, maybe you all should communicate together. To be honest, this feels like a war between viewership. Despite what Josh said above, both you and Leon literally mentioned opposing views. Even your youtube commenters Harped on the differences between what Josh says here and what you and Leon (and his commenters) say. I’m not going crazy here. There’s a big, BIG, difference between what Josh says here and you both say, which is also being picked up by both of your viewers. I don’t know if you push or pull anymore. I’m honestly confused between all 3 of you now, yet you mention similarities between yourself and Leon. Can we please get together to hash out the differences in terminology, which i think will benefit many of us who are viewing this content.
Let me lead off. You and Leon say don’t drive through the brace leg (push up). Now, there’s a difference between knee leading (over foot, which is BAD BAD BAD), and knee leading behind foot. The. there’s this confusing push horizontally. It’s very difficult to conceptualize pushing (back) horizontally when you have weight shifted forward. Are there further examples? I must have watched Leon’s video I don’t know how many times, and he skips through that part like a dry math example. I don’t know what pushing horizontally means - I don’t even trust most of your viewers to know what it means. I also want to push this example to the extreme. For you, Leon, and Josh - Dave Feldbeard (miss his beard), has always extended through his knee (hell, he overextends his knee, even when he states he has bad knees). His body is fully over and beyond his brace knee. It’s ridiculous, and he has bad knees! Is there any comment or a video explaining how he does this, which seems to be contradictory to what Josh mentions in this video?
Next, me trying different versions of all 3 (what I’m getting from your videos) of your form teaching, along from other coaches, online and in person. Let me preface this, I’ve gotten more feedback in my form from all three of you than I’ve learned in the last. You guys are all helpful in learning pieces (minute), but pieces of form. A further preface, I used to throw 450 feet, completely wrong. No strong-arming - just perfect timing (literally less than a second) with tendon bounce, which was completely effortless. The disc would whoosh out with the sound of a 777 jet taking off in front of me. It actually scared me a couple times from the sound alone. I have been tempted so many times to go back to the old ways of incorrect form over the last many years out of frustration to learn something formal, and after a couple knee injuries now from a few here (not to list names), and further frustration in coaching, I’m becoming even more frustrated. I just want to launch a disc 450 feet again with proper form.
I’ve tried gravitational assist (Josh, sidewinder), and Ive tried hip rotation (as stated by Leon). My furthest distance has been gravitational assist, but with different timing than I think they mention. 1) plant leg toes reach ground, back leg pushes forward and plant leg drives heel to the ground then up (slightly back). This has so far resulted in max distance, but my brace knee is really sore/tired after about 16 shots. 2) inner brace foot makes contact with ground, the hips turn (again as I read from your and Leon’s videos), which results in slightly less distance, but no brace knee soreness/tiredness. 3) corrected by sidewinder, front inner brace foot reaches ground, then push through foot, yet again knee soreness. 4) back leg pushes forward and inner brace foot/leg pushes backward (haven’t tested in field). 5) Back leg pushes forward, followed by brace leg push up - do not do this! this has resulted in film of brace knee in front of foot, and has resulted in knee injury.
So maybe I’m just a visual learner? Or maybe I just need an even more dumbed downed version of what you’re all trying to teach? However, after watching all of your videos (many times nonetheless, which I’d take as a compliment), I’m confident to state, along with commenters on your and Leon’s videos, that you and Leon’s are significantly different than what Josh is speaking about in this video. That doesn’t mean to say that it is, but I along with your viewers are confident that it’s different - please see your video comments if you disagree. So if we (and your viewers are wrong), we need some additional clarity to go by. How are your videos now, completely, contradictory to Josh’s video here? I’m going to stand up and be the voice of your viewers, as I’ve read probably 95% of them, and they all agree your and Leon’s videos completely(!) contradict what Josh mentions here in this video. Again, I’ve watched yours and Leon’s videos many times, and I’ve read most of the comments of yours and Leon’s, and I’m stating here that there is something gone astray!
This has been a long comment, and I hope you and maybe Josh has gone through this comment to understand, maybe, what many of us, from your viewership, has learned from all of this, if anything. I sincerely hope you understand our frustration, and I applaud any attempt at to answer our frustrations either here, or preferably in video as it may be easier to understand for us more visually inclined.
I don’t mean to bash on all three of you, and I think what you guys are doing is good, but I think there could be more communication and in-depth examples provided for us more visual folk, and maybe others as well. I, among others just want to throw a disc far, maybe not as far as some top pros, and at least for myself I can say spending a lot of money for pro coaching, despite a lot of practice, hasn’t resulted in much further gains. I don’t have a lot of money to spend, and my happiness in disc golf has been drastically reduced from trying to find the formal way to launch a disc, among other things.
Edit: Reading through what I typed here, I can ask one question. What do future students of yours wish to gain, when you all contradict each other? At least on video, and it’s easy to see, both in video and in comments. Having spent a lot of money and time with pros, I can’t say I’ve learned much of anything. What can we learn from you, if you’re stating contradictory motions, that have clearly injured many of us?
I’m so confused so am I gripping the disc right if not…
Sorry Cory. I don’t understand the question brother
@@OverthrowDiscGolf I’m supposed to hold the disc with my hips, right?
@@CompletelyCory wait. I still don’t get it. You’re not supposed to move the disc with your hips on the backhand side if that’s what you are asking
@@OverthrowDiscGolf 😂😂😂
Watch hitters at bat in baseball. They have tremendous front leg plant before swinging through. Disc golf follows a similar pattern but you're pulling through inside of pushing through.
Stop losing weight Josh, It's difficult to recognize you on CZcams from thumbnail view. Just kidding; Proud of you
everything is hard
Le sigh
Watching Overthrow and Slingshot is hella confusing. I might have to choose OT at this point.
Pick one or the other.
I follow Slingshot, it's been working great for me.
I like some of the tech disc stuff OT does, but he has an incredible misunderstanding of what slingshot teaches.
Trying to pick up tips from both will just destroy your form lol
First! 😂
m.czcams.com/video/75MCdx7zURI/video.html&pp=iAQB
Imo, you are confused. The front hip rotates backward, which straightens the knee. Not the other way around! Hips are stronger and faster than the thigh muscles. Period.
You literally cannot rotate hips without pushing off the ground. Period.
Uhhh. yeah. This is all correct. So much misinformation out there. You once again show the most credibility in knowing what you're talking about.
I feel like he might be taking jabs at Slingshot Disc Golf at the beginning. Which is funny because in SSDG’s videos he’s adamant that Paul McBeth gets into that athletic shoe strings down position. But here Josh says no pros do. So I dunno who to believe 😂🤣😂
Let me backtrack slightly. I don’t remember if I said explicitly that “no pros do,” but if I did I would like to clarify that I’m saying pros with good form in general do not get the back knee internally rotated that far.
See this is why I just throw and throw on my own in a wide open park to practice and develop a shot that works for me and wins rounds...If you listen to all these DG videos on YT about "not doing this and not doing that but do this instead and also turn like this but keep your shoulders like this and your feet like that" brooo u might as well learn to throw while laying on the ground with your eyes closed.
I’ll have to try that
You say not to turn the hips towards the target then the demo video you use of Drew's throw shows him turning his hips towards the target. DGSD and Leon are correct, the form you show in your demonstrations is not; you've always got your body weight over the front foot which prevents the brace actually engaging. Also Simon and Drew have fundamentally identical throws - they're not using different 'styles' (what's a 'gravity' style btw?!) and Drew only has 'drop' compared to Simon because he starts the run up with straight legs while Simon goes into it already crouched. I dunno man I feel like there's a ton of long winded fancy sounding analysis in your videos that doesn't really get to the meat of what constitutes a proper throw. The othe youtubers you're casually dismissing in this video are teaching form that will actually help people throw far. Change my mind?
I can already see a ton of comments in here from peope saying they tried turning their hips forward and now they shank all their shots. I've seen this many times and I know it's because they're throwing by pulling the disc and retracting the scapula, extending the upper arm out to the side instead of letting the snap come from the elbow joint and the forearm. They think the hip pivot is wrong because their upper body form is wrong, but correcting the upper body and incorporating the proper hip movement is the only way they'll ever siginficantly improve their throw. You seem to be telling them that the hip pivot is the culprit, essentially hindering their progress.
Weak
Correct
Just the latest BS in the neverending videos to throw farther. Ya all should be throwing 800+ for all the 'it added 50 feet to my throw' comments.
This video was on hip use, not distance. So I don’t know what you’re getting at.