SHOGUN Episode 6 SPOILER REVIEW!! | FX | Hulu
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- SHŌGUN, a brand new series based on the James Clavell novel, dropped its sixth episode "Ladies of the Willow World" on FX and HULU. The series stars HIROYUKI SONADA, COSMO JARVIS, and ANNA SAWAI. Lady Ochiba returns to Osaka in order to accelerate the Regents' campaign against Toranaga. In Ajiro, Toranaga tests Mariko's loyalty to his cause.
The Outlaw John Rocha is joined by his The Cine-Files cohost Steve Morris who is steeped in the knowledge of James Clavell and Japanese culture to SPOILER REVIEW the SHŌGUN series!
Chapters:
0:00 Intro and Overall Thoughts
6:15 Lady Ochiba, Ishido and Her Past with Mariko
24:24 Blackthorne and Mariko Gets Complicated, Toranaga Prepares for War
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The cool thing about the scene in the brothel is about half way though her translation Mariko stops saying “she” and starts saying “I”
oh wow.....i didn't pick up on that. yeah that scene was amazing. kiku using her words to be translated pretty much FORCING mariko to tell john how she feels. a lot of ppl didnt pick up on that quick flash back to her childhood when she's translating signifying her internal struggle, her feelings for john and her obligation to her family and her lord. then she gets ask if she is going to join and she declines which lets the audience know, her duty is to her family and her lord.
Interesting trivia fact: The real life characters that Mariko and Buntaro represent had 5 children together and one of their descendants was Prime Minister of Japan in the 1990s for about a year.
Plus Buntaro in real life might be a hot headed but wasn’t an a-hole to his wife like in the show
@nont18411 100% right.
@@joeyartk But for me, I think Clavell put the most creative freedom on Yabushige, because Honda Masanobu (Yabushige in real life) is a very trusted advisor of Tokugawa Ieyasu. He only betrayed Ieyasu one time when he sided with the Ikko Ikki monks but after that, he saved Ieyasu’s life from Akechi’s army during Honnoji and stuck with Ieyasu until his death. Yabushige is straight up a snake, completely 180 from Masanobu.
@@nont18411 Yep. This series seems to want to elevate the women at the expense of the men.
I find the hierarchy really confusing. I tried to explain to my girlfriend and quickly realized I wasn’t sure.
Who was Muriko’s father in relation to Taiko? Her husband seems to be a Lord under Toranaga. And who was the boy heir’s grandfather (lady Ochiba’s dad)? And who killed the boy heir’s grandfather and why?
All hail Ochiba-sama!
Also, thanks for comparing the show to the book without spoiling everything, yours is a very tactful approach and is a good resource for someone like me who is holding off from reading the book and watching the ‘85 minisiries until after completing this one.
That tea house scene was EPIC. Everything was subtext.
1. First she said that “this is a private place where it can be dark if you wish it”. As if to say “I know whats going on.
2. Then Kiku mentions to his apparent ice how you notice something when its gone. Translation “this must end”
3. Then, after observing his guests says “a woman cannot look away when someone else suffers”, which subtly hints at him deducing whats going on between Mariko-sama and Blackthorne. But also hunting they can have a moment one last time.
4.Then comes the part where Kiku sits behind Mariko while she behind to explain the willow world. Where she is saying the words but Anjin can only see Mariko. Mariko, on her part, started bu translating for Kiku dono, saying “she says” etc; but gets all caught up and started translating as if she herself was saying it.
5. And it caps off with Kiku-dono asking if Mariko were to join them. It was all well staged. So well staged that, thankfully, they did not add the actual pillowing scene which would have cheapened the whole thing.
Then the walk the morning after was a highly ritualized public display that was meant to dispell any rumors, and Mariko did warn Blackthorne not to make a scene.
'It's dark, nobody can see what's happening here. If you and the Anjin want to go in the back room for a bit, I can stay out here and chill.'
So much build up and forgoing a passionate sex scene wasn't a great move; this is a man in a foreign country, who braved a treacherous sea for months, faced death more than a handful of times, and in all reality who would likely sleep with a bowl or ramen given his circumstances. He has never been allowed to remedy his pent up sexual tension in a any meaningful way; depriving the audience of this aspect of the character's experiences is terrible script-writing; the novel exemplified the sexual aspects of the human experience through Blackthorne's romantic encounters. As far as sex "cheapening the scene," it's obvious you have no understanding or appreciation of sensuality, eroticism, and physical passion. Sex is inextricably woven into human nature and existence; to remove it from the show is to sterilize and debase that which in central to our instincts as human beings.
The first few minutes revealed that Mariko was unaware of his father’s plans and held contempt for Hidekatsu Toda-sama even then, and i didnt know this until this episode, she views him as below his station as evidenced by her comment in the flashback about how her father is discarding him; also telling Ruri-hime (Ochiba sama) what a joke and worth less alliance it was to marry her off to the Toda family;and also by his comment to Toranaga about how his father should have married her better.
And so, when Toranaga revealed truth bombs to her, clearing up her misunderstanding, i was literally shouting at the screan “YES! THANK YOU!” (And it tracks to what the opening flashback was implying) So much so that the next door neighbour knocked on my door to check if i was OK. Lol😅😅😅
Also, though her words were subtitled “i have failed my father”, it could have also been translated as “I have betrayed my father’s trust”
And it puts Hidekatsu Toda-sama in a more sympathetic light, though of course, we still disapprove of the Domestic violence. But now, you have to wonder if that was a common occurence; or if this is just the case that, after all these years, the man has reached his breaking point.
THANK YOU John & Steve for all the great reviews you post. Whether with The Cine-Files or these Shogun reviews, the way you go through each section with rich story and character details makes me appreciate the shows even more and go back in for a second watch to see new things.. just wanted to express my sincere thanks!!!! love when you both team up! and LOVING Shogun
Im really enjoying these breakdowns with Steve.
Im really loving his understanding of the culture and character motivations and am definitely going to check out the cinephiles podcast.
Would love to see more of Steve maybe on the geek buddies as a guest or on future breakdown videos for other series.
Keep up the good work guys
Absolutely indispensable! John and Steven are must watch/listen post viewing an Episode of Shogun. Terrific work!
Another amazing podcast discussion gentlemen. Starting to look forward to your discussion as much as the show itself! ✌🏾✌🏾
Also, i think it is apparent that in the show, Toranaga likes to poke a hornet’s nest to create a reaction to learn and/or putting him in a better position.
Example is ep2: Anjin reveals world politics, but he doesnt know how truthful the info is. So he delays the black ship and reveals what Blackthorne has told him to the portuguese priest, which seems reckless and stupid in the moment. This prompts a reaction from Ohno. The assassin arrives and it was out for the Anjin. And at the end of it, Toranaga gains more concrete knowledge.
And i think he is manipulating many situations in the show, using this template.
So much going on in the scene in the pillow house.
I feel like Toranaga has to know that there are feelings between them, but he's also depending on Mariko's loyalty and devotion to duty as a translator and as a bit of a 'chaperone.' I think part of Toranaga actually does worry that Blackthorne might run his mouth at the brothel because he's disappointed in not being given back his ship and he does need Mariko there to keep tabs on things.
But it's gotta be pretty obvious to most people that the two of them are attracted to each other; the madame at the brothel basically says as much. They're always together and people are noticing.
The entire subtext of their actual time in the pillow house, though, is that this is a 'safe' place that Mariko and Blackthorne could be together and let go of the pretenses for a little while. If they are willing to give into the freedom offered by the Willow Women.
They specifically talk about how the place is 'dark' and that there are no prying eyes. It's 'dark' nobody can see who is doing what in these rooms. We can even go back to a 'more private' room if necessary. Kiku sits behind Mariko because her duty as a courtesan is to fulfill the unspoken needs of her customers. Mariko and Blackthorne need each other but cannot really be together, but if they can let go of the outside world for a few minutes they could be together.
I have no doubt that Kiku would have stayed alone in the first room if Mariko and Blackthorne had requested privacy in the other room.
But Mariko is not willing to let go of the outside world, and she probably knows about Kiku and Omi and that things still aren't truly 'safe' for them, even at the pillow house.
This is lightly touched upon when Mariko speaks with Toranaga afterwards. The pillow house is a refuge for MEN but women are always at war. Even in the pillow house they aren't safe because the institution is mean to serve men and they will sell her out if they can profit from it or if they feel their duty is to the Lord over the customer.
Another fantastic episode. Loving this show!
Man, the show just get better and better... Awesome!!!!
The "I need a new will" thing sends chills down my spine - but that's because my grandmother used this particular form of emotional abuse for so long we made her a board with our names on it so she could track who was in and out (yes, she's now dead, and no, I was not in the final will)
I looked forward to Tuesdays now for these shogun reactions wit Steve.. this is really good and I hope we can stay in the shogun world much longer than intended.
Wow! That was an amazing interpretation by Steve. I thought at first this episode was very good, but it could stand out as a masterpiece episode on its own after Steve carefully elaborated the subtle symbolisms and meanings, especially at the brothel scene.
If the bird doesn't sing..... wait
I'm enjoying these reviews and I just went and found the Cine-Files channel that I'd been meaning to for a while because I want to see the Back to School episode. That was one of the first VHS tapes we had when I was a kid, I think my parents bought it from Erol's when I was 10 and I've been a big fan ever since.
That ending 😭 CRIMSON SKY IT WILL BE
RL Toranaga had Ishido in his power prior to the Sekigahara campaign and let him go because he knew that Ishido wasn't as capable as some of the other daimyos...that's how far ahead he was..
loving the show it's quickly rising the rankings as one of my favourites. Also loving the breakdowns with Steve, thanks for them
Loving the show and really loving these recaps with you guys.
Ochiba is the most beautiful evil character I’ve ever seen. The way she moves and looks and talks mesmerizes me while leaving me terrified
She's a snake. That's why Toranaga never considered marrying her.
Japan was one of only 4 countries on Earth not swallowed alive during the age of colonialism, and leveraging the collective memory of bushido was an significant part of that. If anything, regarding their little islands in Western maps of a wider world poised to enthral them propelled and amplified Japan's drive for self preservation, and called for a brutality that would rival our own. In very real ways, the Japan of WWII was a monster of the West's own creation; in the game of colonialism, one is either colonist or colonizer. To this day, the vestiges of the Western advisors they imported to help build themselves into a modern power are worn by their children - the Prussian uniforms of schoolboys and naval uniforms of schoolgirls.
You saw what pissed Akechi Jensai off, he, The Taiko, and Toronaga were very Pure Land Buddhist, the scene where you see Karoda executing the Pure Land Buddhist Monks, and Kuroda had for most intents and purposes had declared war on the monks
Exactly. Yes, like their historical counterparts, the pureland buddhists and ikko-ikki massacres were probably Akechi's motivations. I'm a bit confused how that is still a mystery to people.
It's one scene and the focus is more on Mariko being told it was a dream, so....
@@michaellockhart554Sorry, maybe it is subtle if you don't know the history it's based on. The taiko mentions "going to the pureland" in episode 2 so you know he himself is a Buddhist. There are lots of visual cues, etc if you know what to look for too. Of course the BIG downside to knowing the period is it's an automatic spoiler and ruins alot of the mystery, surprises and plot. Like I already know what's going to happen to everyone, which kind of sucks.
@@MichaelCorryFilms I agree, I've read the book several times and looked at the history of it all, so... I'm trying to see it without prejudice and actually enjoy some of the deviations
@@michaellockhart554I very much did the same. Read the book, looked up the history and then contrasted the book the second time. Man, I hope you know what at the end of the book gets more than a paragraph. That's a necessary deviation IMO.
I thought this ep was super GOT-like, too 👍🏾 There wasn't much action in this ep but the dialogue + plot development is setting up a devastating & bloody clash that feels like will envelop the remaining 4 eps...ending the season on an exasperating cliffhanger 👀
Ok, taking bets now... tea ceremony in 7 or 8?
I'm really enjoying the SHOGUN reviews. You guys should team up together and do House Of The Dragon Season 2 when it drops in the summer time. I like to the super deep intellectual discussions.
2nd comment here! This episode was so good! Major feminine power showing and I'm so excited for next week's episode!
Love your reviews of Shogun. Have you ever reviewed the movie “Breaker Morant”? It’s about Australian soldiers court-articles during the Boer War.
Lads, When Toranaga issues Red Sky. We all know Toranaga, does he mean today, tomorrow, next week or next year? He's tricky that fella.I don't know but with all thats to come and as things start to ramp up should this show have been 12 episodes? Cheers, Chris Perry
Yes this is a great show and my only issues with it come from my lack of understanding why certain changes are being made. I agree with your overall analysis and Yes the tone of the relationship between Blackthorn and Mariko is changed - but not as much as you indicated. I wait to see how "faithfully" the relationship develops over the next couple of episodes.
As one who has read the book every year since 1975 - and boiling the head of a pin -- We "heard" from the show runners that some changes were made to make the show more historically accurate -- I therefore assume the Isigi Yabu becoming Yashigi Yabushige is such a change (as are a few other of the Japanese names). BUT I do not understand why Vasco Rodrigues (who is clearly Portuguese in the book which is historically accurate) self proclaims as Spanish in the show. In the book Blackthorn calls Rodrigues spanish as an insult. Like he did with Father Sebasito in Anjiro.
The Franciscan Monk (Friar Domingo of the Sacred Order of St. Francis) Blackthorn met in the prison is indicated to be Portuguese in the TV show when in the Novel he is clearly Spanish. This was one reason why the jesuits applied pressure on Christian Dayamos for other members of the order to be killed and him to be imprisoned and other converts murdered in 1598 (twenty-six Six Spaniard Friars, seventeen Japanese neophytes, and three others martyred - "Our churches throughout the land were to be destroyed, all our congregations to be torn apart"), while securing the Jesuits exclusive rights to Japan.
I am waiting to read Frederik Cryns (the historical advisor's new book "In the Service of the Shogun: The Real Story of William Adams" which is released on 1 May here.
I wonder why the Spanish conquest of Portugal is played down and why nationalities are changed -vs- the book.
On Goroda -- Toranaga rebelled against Tadazuki and joining Goroda, who was Lady Ochiba's grandfather. There is nothing I read in the book that supports the assertion that Toranaga was involved in Goroda's death. In fact he fought the future Taiko upto and after this death.
Ochiba -- This "issue" between Ochiba and Toranaga in the book is "her" concern she witnessed her having "relations" with a peasant in the woods while riding, which lead to the birth of the Yaemon. Toranaga had repeatedly declined Ochiba as a consort or wife. In Chapter 17 - Toranaga says to himself: No - never "because she is a wildcat, a treacherous tigress with the face and body of a goddess, who thinks she's an empress"... "For all sorts of reasons, not least of which is that she's hated me and plotted my downfall, ever since she whelped for the first time, eleven years ago" (ie gave birth to a sickly child who died shortly afterwards and then 4 years later giving birth to Yaemon another son miraculously health this time...).
Willow, together with flowers, are terms referring to prostitutes in Chinese. Don't know whether the term "Willow World" has its origin in Chinese or not. However, the title of this episode in Japanese is "うたかたの女たち" which Google Translate produces "Singing Women". Don't why the difference.
Did you guys get a screener? I'll be back to watch this after I see ep 6 tonight.
It dropped at midnight last night on Hulu here in the US, brother.
@@JohnRochaSays Thanks for the helpful info!
These ladies bruh 🔥
hamamoto or hatamoto? 😊
23:20 You forgot to mention that Alvito also said that Lady Ochiba hates the church. In a flashback in episode 2, she also insulted a priest that “the god is up in your ass”. That’s why Alvito thought that it’s necessary for them to side with Toranaga because he’s more neutral towards the church.
The Catholics siding with Ochiba would feel like the Jewish siding with a certain Austrian art school reject in world war 2. It doesn’t make sense for them and is very dangerous.
Good point!
Japanese is easy to learn in my opinion. No masculine feminine, very few irregular verbs. Only hard part is memorizing kanji
Good to know!
Today’s morning after walks of shame got nothing on 16th Century Japan 😬😳
When comparing Game of Thrones, it should come second. They are only separated by decades.
Sorry, have I missed something, everytime I look it up I get that this is a 10 episode limited series not 8 episodes?
Nope. Konichiwa is a general greeting. Konbanwa is good evening.
Forgoing the tea house sex scene was detrimental to the theatrical aesthetics, sensual themes, and erotic architecture that was strategically laid throughout each episode; the incredible sexual tension and emotional frustration shared between Mariko and Blackthorne was remedied with awkward side glances, a fleeting touch of their hands, and an abrupt cutaway. An absolutely terrible creative decision. Sex isn't just about physical pleasure or hedonistic proclivities; in its most profound form its an emotional, passionate, and even spiritual experience; this is why many cultures recognize and appreciate this aspect of the human experience through art. Additionally, the decision to exclude the sex scene deviates significantly from the source material, which is truly disappointing. Even if you're completely unfamiliar with the original novel, you have to imagine and fully appreciate the circumstances of each character; Blackthorne was on a ship for months at sea, without the emotional, psychological, and physical connection of a woman; he faced death more than his fair share of times and would arguably be feeling a sense of fleeting opportunity; Mariko's relationship with her husband has been that of abused and denigrated slave; the first genuine romantic connection she's felt in years has been with Blackthorne--why not allow their passion to materialize in its purest form?
This is by far my preferred podcast review of this series; always an open, knowledgeable discussion of the source material AND historical accuracies of the era, EXCEPT that you not only fail to mention the inaccuracy of, but salivate upon the newly discovered female warrior trope, that is shoe horned into every F-ing current remake. Correct me if I'm wrong but women in Japanese culture on every level were not trained, known to be or expected to be in combat. Maybe , maaaaybe a few exceptions existed but still extremely rare in a very rigid and honor coded society EVEN TO THIS DAY. Such a weak oversight in the light of people who consider themselves intellectuals and pursuers of truth in the warrior/ artist vein. P=ssy shit. Unless Im wrong. Love the elements of strong female protagonists when it's AUTHENTIC. Hopefully these two will not be in a combat scene ONLY to appease this current false intellectual class.
I stand mostly incorrect : czcams.com/video/ZmK7E4fYa9Y/video.html
Mr. Rocha would not understand the Japanese used on the show. It is a rustic/medieval Japanese. Also IMO the Mariko Blackthorne relationship sucks. What attracts her to him? He's a boor and an oaf. He has no charm. His only good quality is his bravery. By the time of this point in the book, they are completely into each other.. and have fun checking out the sex toys available there. This relationship has no charm, no chemistry and Blackthorne's character in this series sucks. He's the dumbest one of the them all. Btw. Ochiba never took over the council , she has no such power. but she manipulates in the space,/power that she has. Too bad they can't mention how the Taiko's son is actually a peasant's .. when Ochiba impaled herself on him and that's how she became pregnant.
There are 10 episodes, not 8.