SHOGUN Episode 8 SPOILER REVIEW!! | FX | Hulu
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- čas přidán 8. 04. 2024
- SHŌGUN, a brand new series based on the James Clavell novel, dropped its eighth episode "The Abyss of Life" on FX and HULU. The series stars HIROYUKI SONADA, COSMO JARVIS, and ANNA SAWAI. Toranaga's defeated clan moves to Edo; Blackthorne must decide who he fights for.
The Outlaw John Rocha is joined by his The Cine-Files cohost Steve Morris who is steeped in the knowledge of James Clavell and Japanese culture to SPOILER REVIEW the SHŌGUN series!
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That line Mariko tells her husband about living 1000 years than to die with him doesn’t mean she now wants to live. It means that she wants to die for her family’s honour, so living is painful and shameful, but she’d even rather to live for 1000 years be as painful and shameful than to die with him. That’s what she means…
When Hiro said, "So you do believe in a pointless death," it made me think of Toranaga's son. Then, when Toranaga stood before his son's ashes and thanked him for earning him more time (for the death ritual), I realized that his son's death was in fact, not pointless after all. He finally earned the respect from his father that he had always sought. This was a difficult episode to get through, but the best one yet.
Excellent point!
I thought that was alluding to what they said while in Osaka in ep 1.
I saw right through it at the beginning of episode 8 when they brought up the 49 days of mourning. Personal story, my family are Vietnamese, and we also went through a 49 days period of mourning for my grandparents when they both passed last year. I didn’t know Japanese people do this as well. But when it was brought up in the episode, I said out loud that this will buy Toranaga more time to plan. Although I really have to applaud Toranaga for absolutely committing to his plan to “surrender,” and made sure to convince almost everybody of that. I don’t think Toranaga intended for his son to die, but that opened up the opportunity and gave him more time
The 49-day mourning period comes from Buddhist tradition. It takes that long for the soul to be reincarnated into another being.
On the official podcast they said Hiromatsu commits seppuku to spare the lives of the generals. You can see the genuine shock on Toranaga's face.
Thank goodness, in the real life story of Shogun, Hiromatsu didn't die but lived to see the Shogun rule.
Def seemed like a necessary ad lib to ensure the rest fall in line and continue with Toranaga.
Oh, that’s interesting. Like many others, I thought it was a plan (maybe even Hiromatsu’s solo plan to benefit Toronaga.). Sometimes I can’t work out if the writing is being deliberately vague or something is getting lost in translation (theme of the show😂)…
Toranaga had no choice but to stand his ground, especially when Hiro stepped in to commit seppuku, despite not wanting or planning for him to. But had Toranaga intervened, then Ishido's spies would have been exposed to Toranaga's true intentions. He expected his generals would commit seppuku, which he was fine with, however.
Few notes for your critiques:
Omi's reaction to Nagakado's death:
In the previous episode, they established that those two were actually long-time friends when Omi referred to the more halcyon days of the childhood he and Nagakado-in part-shared. His manipulating Nakagado into the canon attack might have been a bit tough (and an act of desperation), but that doesn't disqualify friendship. Also, someone as insightful as Omi could easily see himself in Nagakado since they're contemporaries, causing something of an existential crisis after the tragic death. I mean--Toranaga literally watched his best friend commit Seppuku in front of him. So...the rules, parameters, and thresholds of friendships are different in the world of Shogun than how it is for us.
As for Mariko's response to Buntaro:
I'm shocked that Steve didn't think this clocked. Maybe just overthinking on his part.
It goes back to the dreaded double date from a few episodes ago when Mariko actively CHOOSES to translate Blackthorne's criticism of how Buntaro treats her. Remember how selective she is when she communicates on Blackthorne's behalf? She explicitly states how John thinks Buntaro doesn't treat her well. Much like John says in and around that moment (in reference to her telling the tragic story of her family), she could've said ANYTHING but chose to make those words explicit.
On top of that, this guy--Buntaro--not only physically abused her, but also emotionally abused her, citing her family's dishonour and how she's basically worthless and a nobody. Basically browbeating her about how she's lucky he ever gave her the time of day. I'd say Mariko's response to his overtures for joint suicide was pretty fucking fitting, all things considered. In fact, what she said was probably nicer than Buntaro deserved, as savage as it was and even though I felt some pathos on Buntaro's behalf.
Lastly, on Blackthorne's "dumbing down:"
I haven't read the novel nor seen the original miniseries. But I assume this was a careful decision of the show's writers.
Making Blackthorne the "ace" of the show who's one step ahead veers him right into white saviour territory. I understand the need to make the main protagonist incredibly savvy and aspirational. But Blackthorne isn't the main protagonist in this version of Shogun. He's certainly a central character, but this version of Shogun is Toranaga's story, not John Blackthorne's.
Blackthorne's portrayal as a man out of his depth who's a bit hapless and flailing (up until now) only serves to make Toranaga appear more intelligent. IMO, this is a success of the show, and everybody's struggle with it revolves around their conditioning that the white guy is the lead protagonist. Plus, let's not act like Blackthorne hasn't been given moments to shine. And more moments of him shining are most certainly pending.
Mariko's response to Buntaro asking for them to die together os the absolute coldest thing I've ever heard, that was just strait up a gut punch with a nagakata
I actually felt sorry for him, for a short while.
Then Hiro tells Buntaro the pain of being denied.
Hiromatsu was never in on it. At least that is the sense i got from the official podcast. Torinaga expected his generals (who had served him for decades) to protest and then comitt seppuku when he didnt heed their demands. That would have demonstrated to Osaka that he was truly defeated. Then Hiromatsu stepped in and made himself the face and voice of the protesting vassals. He figured that his words would have much more weight and meaning to Tironaga. They did. But Tironaga could not backdown at that point or all would be lost - the ruse would fail and he would be left with the choice of either truly surrendering or fighting an unwinnable battle like the warlord he defeated as a 12 year old.
The sad irony is that Hiromatsu’s sacrifice was a much more effective display than the generals comitting seppuku would have ever been. So even with that awful act he served Tironaga well.
He was in on it.
Thank goodness, in the real life story of Shogun, Hiromatsu didn't die but lived to see the Shogun rule.
I love the ambiguity. I’m not sure if Hiro was either fully read in or if he inferred the play or was calling Toranaga’s bluff
@@JohnRochaSays in the official podcast the show runner says Torinaga “is in shock because he did not intend for Hiromatsu to do this”. I was surprised by how definitive he was.
*Toranaga
I think the reason Mariko's relationships seem a little off compared to prior versions is because the driving force of this version is feminism, not romance. If you watch closely every episode, Mariko doesn't really hate Buntaro, she hates arranged marriage, which was the norm then. And she isn't really driven toward Blackthorn for romance, but more for the freedom he represents. Hence, they have only slept together once, when she thought Buntaro was dead. Since then there have only been occasional small romantic gestures between the two. She is more concerned with fulfilling her own destiny.
erhm I dont think she hated arranged marriage. she knew it was her duty. what she hated, at first, was the buntaro's low status (she straight out said that to lady ochiba when they were young and how her father should've married her better). because of that, she also hated the fact that it seemed like her father casted her away.
@@iamai_iggsBuntaro wasn't lower status than her. How low class is Blackthorn then, btw?
@@joeyartk Mariko came from the Akechi clan, which prior to its demise, was a clan of higher prestige than Toda's.
@@KoyomiHiroyukiHis actual clan in real life is the Hosokawa clan.
@@joeyartk well that's what mariko said in ep 6 so idk how to tell you otherwise.
lady ochiba: your marriage to buntaro will be an alliance for both families to smile on
lady mariko: that's a joke. you know the toda clan is a worthless alliance
lady ochiba: but your father treasures you
lady mariko: then why is he casting me away
then at the end of that same ep:
toranaga: (your father) had great plans for you
lady mariko: then he should have married me better
I also thought Mariko’s response to her husband’s offer to kill themselves was off but then I remembered that Toronaga had already explained to her that she had a different purpose in life for her and that killing herself was not in the cards.
Mariko wants an honorable death associated with her family, not assoiated with Buntaro a low class samurai who does seppuku to give up
you have no idea what you are talking about. Buntaro is Hiromatsu's son and not a "low class" samurai. Completely the opposite. You also show no understanding of samurai Japanese culture where seppuku is considered a very honorable death.
I will say that I did love the bit about putting the courtesans next to the Cathedral (this was also not in the book). Historical troll! LOL but it shows you what Toranaga really thought about the Catholics and their Church.
More likely, it shows what Hollywood thinks of religion.
@@cocoacrispy7802Ironic that the land of make believe is cynical about make believe.
I think Hiro was not in on the plan directly, but he inferred the plan.
Also, I think his threat to seppuku was in fact a final test to determine Toranaga's intentions.
If Toranaga really was defeated and wanted to give up, then Hiro would perform the biggest wake up call in order to change Toranaga's mind.
However if Toranaga was being deceptive all along, then his sacrifice would solidify the plan and give Toranaga the best possible chance of carrying it out.
With all that said, I believe Hiro realized Toranaga's true intentions near the end when he was told, very coldly, to kill himself.
With their entire life spent together, he knew that Toranaga would not be so heartless towards him, so he accepted the duty realizing that it was his final sacrifice for his lord.
I think the "forgive me" backs this up as in forgive me for not trusting your resolve
Why people automaticaly think when Mariko rejected Buntaro, she chose BT? What if she was choosing herself.
Women can't divorce. She is stuck with Buntaro. She has no choice to make.
Cause this aint 2024. This is feudal Japan. There are laws and rules in place that put certain women in certain positions they can't get out of. Notice that Toronaga only asks Buntaro why he won't just divorce Mariko. He never once asks Mariko if she will divorce Buntaro. She can choose herself all she wants behind the eightfold fence, but her historical reality won't let her be able to do that outwardly.
But I think in this TV show version, she _is_ choosing herself behind the eightfold fence. It's clear that historically her only options are limited to decisions which are internal & psychological. Besides, I become less & less convinced that this retelling of Shogun is in anyway interested in elevating the love affair & soul connection between the two once lovers. It's left a budding fan of their romance in the early episodes, wanting & overall disappointed.
I would say, the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorne is based on ‘co-existence’. This is not a conventional romantic take on a ‘romantic’ relationship because the stakes are high, and both of them have their own goals to achieve that ‘pure love’ is not their driving force in their relationship. Their attraction is obviously their yearning of freedom, and Blackthorne, unlike other Japanese men here, will not stay down and take whatever to given to him. He finds way to survive (first attraction is at the end of episode 3). Also, I said before that Blackthorne is tender to her, sees her as who she is. He doesn’t try to change her to what he wants her to be but try to persuade her to change. Over so many episodes, he still persists to try and persuade her and she knows. Their exchanges are bittersweet as they can’t accept each other, but trust me, those exchanges are flirting to me, because they’re intimate and transmissive.
perhaps but what you are missing is that at least in the book, which is superlatively intricate and takes you inside the thoughts of each character, never really indicates what Mariko's "goal" is.. outside of TWO .. allegiance to her liege Lord, Toranaga,.. her Christian faith AND when she falls in love with Blackthorne she strives to protect him however she can, knowing full well he's a completely powerless pawn in the big political game being played around him. That's why the "white savior" comments infuriate me. He can't even save HIMSELF . much less Toranaga, or ANYONE ELSE. (outside of acts of individual bravery)
My favourite review/breakdown channel for Shogun! Thanks
Agree 💯
I watched the 1980 version 1000 years ago & questioned the intensity of the Blackthorne/Mariko affair. Not to say it couldn't happen, but for Mariko to turn her back on her husband, her social status, and nation, or that a European would become so infatuated, so quickly, with Mariko was unlikely, since both would consider the other an uncivilized savage. I know it strokes western male vanity, it makes no sense. That said I'm glad the romance between these two is downplayed and the palace intrigue is taking a front seat.
It would make sense that after Blackthorne finds out he is never going back home and his status in Japan is secured he takes a Japanese wife and raises a litter of mixed brats.
It made sense as it happened in real life.
actually the infatuation of the European with the Asian female would make perfect sense . and as modern woke scholars point out.. the sexual fetishization of "the other" etc. But what made Mariko infuatuated with HIM is a different matter. It was his charm, his bravery, and his kindness that won her over (charm and kindness being 2 qualities that Buntaro did NOT have) (this happened even more so with Fujiko, who here and in the book initially loathed Anjin san as a Barbarian. It's only this kindness and personal care in treating her recovery from her burn wounds that changes her opinion of him. . The other thing this series misses, because they want the woke version of European as "colonialist" is Blackthorne's actual interest and desire in learning things Japanese.. his conversion from the original colonialist is one of the thing that makes him a compelling character. Plenty of other Europeans remain ;colonialist - apart from Blackthorne who becomes more Japanese than all of them, perhaps even more than Alvito who has the Catholic Colonialist mentality. - but they refuse to make make Blackthorne likeable and more honorable . and stayed to their woke agenda.
@@bogeyb200 like I said, The book & the 1980 version appeal to western male vanity bcuz the author of the book and the adaptation of the 1st series are western males with the same trope we have seen in fictional works since Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote Tarzan. The western man becomes master of all he surveys whereever it may be. That state comes through attrition, but it isn't natural.
This current version of Shogun is a collaborative effort of people from both west AND east. You call it "woke," I call it "real" and it pleases me that the romance between the Anjin and Mariko has taken a back seat to the palace intrigue and culture of feudal Japan.
@@jeffreyrobinson6988 you are obviously not reading what I am writing. I completely AGREE with your last paragraph.! and always have. Your first part is a lot of gobbledygook that was indocrinated into your brain at the uni by your ____ Studies Professor. If you know history and even a have a basic understanding of the story, Blackthorne (nor any other "western man") can NOT become "the master of all he surveys" in these circumstances. Blackthorne in particular is vulnerable, as he has many enemies there, both domestic and outsider (Portuguese). The love story is relevant because in the end it's Mariko that saves his white ass and if she didn't love him/was in love with him, she wouldn't had.
My read of Blackthorn in this episode is a representation of what Mariko said to him - "It is you who are trapped. If you seek individual freedom, you'll never be free from yourself.” At this point, because he's no longer in service to Toranaga, and although he might have had his own ambitions in going to Japan, as his crewman said they did so at the behest of someone else, so now he his completely free of any responsibility - and instead of feeling emboldened, he feels lost, and is trying to find his place in this new status quo. So trying to align himself with Yabushige because he needs somebody to serve to give him a purpose, but still not 100% understanding the culture and not realising what the implications are, ends up messing up (all of which aligns with Toranaga expects them to do). You can still feel that it gives him less agency but that was my perspective on his character. In any case I thought it was a really affecting epsiode because although the plot didn't advance all that much, all the character intrraxtions and the heightened tensions between the characters made it really engrossing. Looking forward to next week's episode and hearing your thoughts on it 🤙
Re: Blackthorne and Mariko’s romance (with Buntaro in between) -
One seems like they’re in an intimate space for a private event, but an iceberg is between them; all the rituals that are supposed to indicate ‘love’ are merely rituals - ‘respect’ is just a tool to exercise distance…
One is blatantly in a formal meeting, and though they seem to be not on good terms, underneath their words, the tone that they’re using to exercise their arguments indicates a sense of clarification - ‘rudeness’ is what they utilise to inflict intimacy…
Why the difference? One ‘loves’ her through order, the other loves her through persuasion - and she knows who actually ‘sees’ her…
So it’s not just Yabushige who is ‘seen’, she is also ‘seen’; saying Yabushige is a man who ‘understood the importance of taking fate into his own hands’, isn’t she as well?
And if you ask me what is romantic: this is…
This Blackthorne is not stupid. He might not be a hero in conventional sense, but he is absolutely aware of who he is and act accordingly to survive in his own terms, and only Mariko gets it, because she is also the same: she honour her duties in her own terms…
28:36 Into the video, I agreed more with John Rocha that Mario was using that moment as a modern days approach of domestic abuse victims moment of courage, to a period piece in the past. I believe it was nuanced in a way of she wanted to do seppuku in honor of her family. When Toda Hirokatsu gives her permission to commit seppuku with him, so they can be married in the afterlife, she snapped on him, because she hates the thought of being with him, his abuse, and his control. In that moment she wanted to hurt him, as he had hurt her multiple times, and put him in his place.
Great video guys.
The poem scene in the rain was one of my favorites.
In this portrayal of Mariko and John, the motivation on Mariko’s part is more a low-key lust than a romantic love for John: he’s far more smitten than she is. Their time together alone, whether it’s intimate or collegial, is a brief distracting respite for her as she waits for the right opportunity and permission to die with honor. This John Blackthorne is not the same as in the original story, nor is he held in the same regard as William Adams reportedly was by Tokugawa Ieyasu: he is, at least to this point in the story, first and foremost a chess piece in Toranaga’s gambit like most of the other main characters. I really respect the decision to clearly differentiate this version of _Shōgun_ from the original story and past adaptation: partly because it adds gravity to just how amazing a feat it was for the real-life Tokugawa Shogunate to come into existence, and as a vehicle for Sanada Hiroyuki to be a true prominent leading man in a work primarily intended for western audiences. He is not second banana to Tom Cruise, Keanu Reaves, or Jackie Chan this time around: he, and his character, are _the_ man!
I think in this version, a romantic relationship between Blackthorne and Mariko purposely takes a backseat to Marikos' love and loyalty to Lord Toranaga and the redemption of her family's name. This storyline is so much deeper and compelling to me than just another love story and white savior narrative.
Why so loyal to Toranaga when he opposed his father after the assassination.
I really enjoyed the 1980 mini-series, but all of the “I love thee” sequences between John and Mariko got sappy.
Mariko overhears Hiromatsu telling the others he thinks Toranaga will fight. She probably informed Toranaga who then brings Hiromatsu in on the plan.
In response to what Steve said 16 minutes in, I think Mariko is grappling with the idea that Buntaro is doing what he’s doing out of his own interest and her facing those feelings that she doesn’t have for him. I also agree with Johns point where Blackthorn and his presence is opening up Mariko.
I think as Steve was saying during the review, Toranaga was using that signature scene as a test for his generals, using both Hiromatsus death to convince Osaka of his surrender and to put blackthorthe and Yabushege into place as his pawns for Mariko to be his Trojan horse. Makes the scene at the grave more powerful when you realize what he has lost/given up to that point
//Acknowledging one another's humanity proves key. Unlike every other man Mariko's encountered, John Blackthorne recognizes her as a person first and a woman second. He respects her, values her contributions, and seeks her opinion. He never expects contrition, obedience, or silence. Nor does he demand her time, even after they sleep together. Instead, he offers genuinely selfless affection. Blackthorne's difference, while intriguing enough to warrant sexual attraction, embodies the freedom Mariko lacks. Mariko letting John within her emotional walls says more than their many exchanged words. He sneaks his way through not because he exploits cracks, but because Mariko allows herself to be vulnerable. It's no great leap to assume Mariko has never been in love. Imagine her surprise when her equal and opposite isn't just a foreigner, but a man her marriage forbids her from having.//
//Mariko's upcoming voyage marks the first time she and John won't be joined at the hip. The trailer for Shōgun's penultimate episode does tease an emotional scene between them. Beyond that: who knows? More unconsummated longing and loaded sentences? Do we stand any chance of a kiss? The latter's as unlikely as a happy ending, which, admittedly, makes Anna Sawai and Cosmo Jarvis’s chemistry seem underutilized. They are fraught yet tender, electric but combative. If I thought the hot springs scene was breathtaking, then the brothel exchange left me unconscious. Sawai plays Mariko as taken aback by the depth of her feelings. The yearning in Jarvis's eyes is acute enough to simultaneously melt the earth and burn it.//
//Their pining, their mirrored displacements, and the meeting of cultures that mesh but cannot achieve symbiosis: their romance represents the series' heart. In another reality, this pair might have a chance. As it stands, they're as akin to soulmates as the situation permits. No matter how Shōgun concludes, this couple will destroy me.//
collider.com/shogun-blackthorne-mariko-romance/
I'm really enjoying the weekly reviews. You guys should team up for House Of The Dragon S2 when it drops in the summertime on Max. Maybe something like Silo S2 on AppleTV+ or Outlander S7 on Starz+ in the Fall/Winter. Then segway into Foundation S3 on AppleTV+ in 2025. These type of shows are all based in literary works and so well written and cerebral with so many things to discuss and talk about. You guys do such a great job breaking everything down.
Man, this series is pure CINEMA!!!! This episode was purely Shakespearean...... My God!!!! Love the breakdown as usual...
An adaptation of a novel will and can be always an adaptation. Sometimes filmmakers decide to go with the book as close as possible, sometimes the opposite, mostly inbeetween. I have read the book and seen the 1980 series and appreciate they didn't make John the "white savior" in the new version as well. And you have to admit: the whole love and sex thing was very 1970s. So I don't mind they toned that down either.
again, I'm going to say you have never READ the book. If you did, you'd stop with the White Savior wokester nonsense. Blackthorne was never a savior of anything or anyone (barring his saving of Yabu and Toranaga and the Spanish pilot). He was always brave and he's brave here. But that's it .. Blackthorne was always a pawn.. a POWERLESS pawn in all the Japanese political intrigue around him.. and in the book, in the end.. it's Mariko and her love for him that saves his ass, as Toranaga, though fond of him, was always ready to use him as a gohawk for his own reasons. . Please show me where and how IN THE BOOK.. he's the "white savior". Whom does he "save"??? How does HE contribute to the ultimate machinations that occur in the final chapters?? He's completely POWERLESS. As your distaste of romance and sex ..did that bother you in KIko's love scenes? Or...are you just happy that the "white man" didn't get the (Asian) "girl"?
@@bogeyb200 Shut up, bloody racist! I READ the book and he WAS the white savior in the 1980 series.
We don’t need another white savior so I’m personally glad the show isn’t going that route making blackthorne this great infallible guy instead he’s flawed just like a real person! He’s likeable without being perfect and that makes him more likeable to me anyway!
Also u guys keep on going on about Mariko needing all these reasons to be attracted and drawn to a person - that’s not how it always happens in real life. Attraction happens and sometime u don’t have all these monumental reasons for it like ur suggesting is missing, sometimes it’s for reasons on a subconscious level. Y’all acting like she needs all the grandiose reasons- I respectfully reject that notion!
"We don't need another white savior"... Fk off with those politics.
I'm not saying he needs to be a white savior. He needs to be a character who shows true charm and intelligence and know how. He started out that way in the first two episodes, but he has receded as the show has gone on. No one is saying he needs to save anyone. What we're saying is we need to see why Mariko might risk her marriage and standing with Toronaga for him. We haven't seen that yet.
@@JohnRochaSays I hear u- and that’s fair, but he’s good looking, he’s from a far off u known land that makes him mysterious, he’s brave and he’s cunning those are more than enough of a reason she could be in to him. I’m just saying he doesn’t need to keep doing this amazing feats for her attraction to be there I think there’s already enough there as is- but that’s just my take, a slightly differing viewpoint than u guys! But I understand what ur saying…
@@zerekanthony2203 Personally I don't think her love for Blackthorne has to be as deep in this version. The attraction is what has beeen most highlighted. I agree with you that what has beeen presented is enough. For the attraction.
it would be really nice if wokester idiots got off the "white savior" theme and constantly compared this to the Last Samurai. Anjin-san was never supposed to be the "white savior". Have you READ THE BOOK?????? the BOOK! .. in the book, he is as Toranaga says here.. a short winged gohawk,, he is ALSO a pawn, and ultimately super powerless among the all the political intrigue around him... but you can give his character, as Clavell did, some dignity, some charm.. not just boorishness and being an oaf.
Agree with Mr. Rocca. I’m fine with Mariko’s decision to reject suicide with Buntaro. She is willing to die, but not on his terms.
I went from watching this episode to watching the latest X-Men '97 episode back to back and was heated for the rest of my night! Still digging this show but man, my empathy for Toranaga is wavering right now.
John, Steve. One of the most interesting thing's happening with this show is the number of people who are watching the first Shogun series. They compare the same scenes to see which version handles it better. Everyone seems to like the more reactions and tensions between Blackthorn, Mariko and Fuji, from the first series with some exceptions. But prefer some of the more political tensions from this new series. I wonder if the series should have been 12 episodes not 10. Trying to pack all that is to come into just 2 episodes now might be just to much? Lets hope it does'nt fall flat. Cheers, Chris Perry.
i think you nailed it. The original series had none of the necessary Japanese intrigue and character development.It was all about Blackthorne because they believed that's what the audiences in the 80's wanted. But that betrayed the spirit of the book. This version honors the Toronaga centric story of the book, but completely betrays the spirit of the book vis a vis Mariko and Blackthorne. This Blackthorne has no charm,, isn't particularly bright. In fact, he's very much an oaf and a boor, albeit brave. There was never ever any "chemistry" between them at all in this series.. zippo, zilcho . whereas in the original (and the book) there, very much is, and of course, Blackthorne stokes it by his charm and his acceptance of Japanese culture. They deleted the key Blackthorne attempted seppuku scene
My problem is that the character Blackthorn is based on was a big part of the real story. He became a general and samurai and married a Japanese woman had children and lived the rest of his life in Japan as a trusted advisor. He has shrines and his home still stands to this day
He was never a general and wasn't even involved in the battle at all. He never even met the Mariko character. He was helpful after the war, not during it.
I’m thoroughly enjoying the show even though the flaws you guys point out are glaring. I totally bought the sepuku too 😮… however I think a subtle scene between the two old friends earlier in the episode could’ve laid some groundwork. I’ve already written it in my head😂! it works! But if I wrote it my way it wouldn’t have shocked me so much…😅. So what do I know?😂
I think Hiromatsu committed seppuku without Toranaga knowing beforehand. In the episode, one of the disputing samurais put his hand on the hilt of his blade, and Hiromatsu only acted after noticing. I think the show going out of the way to show this is showing that Hiromatsu is acting on newly acquired information as opposed to a previously formulated plan. I think he realized that Toranaga tried to force the disputing samurai commit seppuku, and he decided to spare the others and do it in their stead. This would mean that Hiromatsu was the cruel one because he forced his friend to force him to die.
Just want to say you guys rule. It's gotten to the point where I'm almost as pumped when your post-show discussion comes online as I am when the new episode comes online.
I love that Mariko declined Buntaro's offer for a mutual suicide in the tea house scene. How she went about it and her choice of words, not so much. lets break it down.
1. From the flashback on episode 6, we can glimpse that Buntaro had always longed for Mariko. Mariko, on the other hand never really liked him, or even looked down on the Toda clan back then (confirmed by her saying to Ruri-hime that the Toda clan is a worthless alliance and that his father is casting her aside; and later to Toranaga that his father should have married him better)
2. We learn from the Toranaga couple's councelor arc that Buntaro did try ti aooease her but her icy demeanor never melted. And that he had to bear double insult of Sparing the life of a traitor's daughter; who later converted to Catholicism. double whammy right there.
3. then Toranaga revealed that, in fact, distancing her from the fight and marrying her off to someone who ensured she lives was part of her father's plan... BUT, come episode 7, she requests Toranaga to allow her to end her life.
we are coming from all that build up before the tea-house scene. so you can see a great deal of inconsistency in her character. it's either that or she is being consciously spiteful and saying the most hateful and vile thing that she knows will break his husband at this point. AND IT MAKES NO SENSE UNLESS THE PLAN WAS TO MAKE MARIKO SO DISLIKEABLE. and then to go around later and tell blackthorn that "when loyalty starts it has no end otherwise it is not loyalty", I call hypocrite. Just the previous episode, you asked for death from Toranaga who revealed to you your own father's grand design (a betrayal of your duty to your father and then to your Lord), then a scene before you rejected joining your husband in a seppuku of protest (a betrayal of your marriage); you really are in no position to berate and/or remind Blackthorne about the importance of loyalty.
Now, let me throw an olive branch and suggest how to better handle the scene (I am no writer so this is rudimentary but would make more narrative sense and progress Mariko's arc in a more positive way). "When we were a younger couple I resented you for the wrong reasons (this works as a good opening statement as it is an admission also of her misreading the great plans his father for her); and I know i have caused you great suffering by repeatedly asking you to let me die all this years (this shows accountability); BUT I have always respected Buntaro, the great warrior. What you are saying now dishonour's your father who have said earlier that he Believes Toranaga will fight. It dishonours our Lord whom you also doubt. And you dishonour yourself. I would sooner live a thousand years than die in this manner which you suggest"
Again, I am no writer and this is just a rudimentary thing, but I think this would have rounded her character more and would connect with her entire arc from the beginning (where we have been told that she did indeed want to die for she thought that was her duty then) to the present with every new information revealed to her giving her that change in perspective. I especially hate the fact that she did the right thing by rejecting his offer for death, and they use that as an excuse to give Mariko the right to act so vile, petty, and cruel.
And before anyone types the Usual Butthurt crap: NO, that does not mean that Buntaro's previous actions were excusable. Of course it is wrong for her to lay hands on her wife. And if he can show such effort in something as delicate and meticulous as the tea ceremony, he should have tried to communicate better with her wife instead of being this clumsy around her as we saw on screen. BUT. Nonetheless. It does not justify what she did to him here.
youtube.com/@khaii13 She does not like Buntaro. She does not like being married to Buntaro. She's been suicidal for the entirety of their marriage. Why would she be kind now? She never has been before. It's not about reason. You can dislike someone just because. If you happen to be in an arranged marriage to that person, you're likely to feel resentment regardless of their behaviour, good or bad. Why does she need to justify what she said? It's how she feels, that's enough. It sucks for Buntaro, but such is life.
@@jollyrayda I never said she had to be kinder, only that with the perspective she got by ep 6, that her disposition softens a bit.
Otherwise, I agree with everything else you said. It is what it is. Nonetheless, it still makes no narrative sense; I’m not even a writer and I could see that.
Thanks!
Coming for all the Emmy’s 🙌
I never really cared how Clavell wrote romance in Shogun, with all the "I love thee" and so forth. However, just jettisoning most of the romance from the story I fear will make the future of both characters, esp Mariko, less impactful. Overall I give this rendition of Shogun a solid 9 for staying true to the spirit of Clavell's novel. Much like Jackson was good at staying true to the spirit of Tolkien with Lord of the Rings, even with some changes I didn't always agree with. My biggest gripe is with Blackthorne's character arch in this episode.
it would be nice you knew WHY that was used so in the book. They had to speak in LATIN, since there were other people around who would understand if they spoke Portuguese. and even English. For their trust and romance to bloom, Latin was necessary as it kept them both safe. Since they couldn't show their affection for each other outwardly in their mannerisms, it was also done with WORDS.
@bogeyb200 I understand it was just it was too sappy imo. " I love thee Mariko, oh how I love thee" . It was just too much verbal declaration of their mutual admiration for my tastes.
@@farmgirlrebel1333 oh FAIR POINT. I hate sappiness myself!!!! but they were actually in love.. they had to speak Latin, Latin can be a sappy language when speaking out declarations of "love and affection" when they couldn't display any outward physical signs of affection/love for each other. So, as sappy as it was.. it made sense.. neh? (as the Japanese might ask :)
Steve's really sold me on reading this book
I haven't read the book so my perspective is 100% from watching these episodes a few times. It seems like they are intentionally diverging from the source material with Mariko. I don't think this Mariko is madly in love with Blackthorne. It seems more like a lusty infatuation with someone who brought something out of you that you like. But then you get to know them and they start getting on your nerves😆. When Buntaro asks her about being under the Anjin's spell, I believe that we're supposed to understand (as an audience) that Buntaro is wrong again and that she isn't making her decisions based on a fantasy future with Blackthorne. She may ultimately end up with him in this televised story but she easily may not and would still be happy that if she is simply free.
Those are excellent points and now I have new perspective on how they are presenting Mariko to us.
I think the series (if you haven't read the book) has already layed out what will happen to Mariko. She will sacrifice herself for Toranaga and in doing that, does her ultimate duty to her Lord and cleans her family's name.. So the only person she might be with in the end will be her "Jeessuuuuss"
It's my belief that Hiromatsu was NOT in on Toranaga's plan all along, and only having shared a significant look with Toranaga (where Hiramatsu obviously realises his Lord's real intentions - something that's communicated with wonderful subtlety by both actors' expressions), does he follow through, in the knowledge that the act will indeed serve to help his friend's cause. But that's just MY opinion. Also, I'm fine with appreciating the connection between Mariko and John without the need for overt declarations and displays - especially when this show's strength lies in having YOU as a viewer, reading between the lines of dialogue and observing every gesture.
Steve only cares about what's in the book and is unwilling to see why Hiromatsu would make this decision out of self-sacrifice to save the generals Toranaga had planned to execute to sell the surrender ruse. Toranaga didn't want to sacrifice Hiromatsu but he believed heads had to roll. He would rather it have been one of the dissenting generals but Hiromatsu, being the honorable and generous soul he is, took one for the team instead. It's so clear if you're willing to actually enjoy the show for what it is instead of treating the book as gospel. Steve should just go back to the book and stop watching this show, it's obviously making him miserable.
Well, first you don't know him so maybe cool it on assuming what he cares and doesn't care about. And second, he loves the original book and has offered great insight over these reviews so maybe cut him some slack as he comes to terms with this adaptation versus how the book does it. Try practicing what you're asking Steve to practice....creating a little space for a different POV that doesn't agree with yours.
@@JohnRochaSays He's putting his opinions out in a public forum just like I'm putting mine out. I'm giving him exactly as much 'slack' as he's giving the show. The book and the 1980 show were widely panned by Japanese readers and audiences because it made assumptions about their culture and values based on a strictly outsider perspective and ended up looking like a knockoff version of their historical epics if not an outright parody. This show has been brilliant at striking the right balance and turning what would've just been a self-insert fantasy into an ensemble epic but Steve still can't see it even when you can. You're right that I don't 'know' him, but I do know the opinions he's putting out and people can only be judged by their actions. He has his perspective and I'm passionate about mine. And quite frankly I don't think he needs you speaking for him - if he wants to engage, I'm right here in the comments. If not, he's free to ignore me or delete my comment or shadow block me or whatever else is standard procedure for you guys. Everything he's complained about has an explanation if he'd just pay attention. Hiromatsu sacrificed himself because he realized Toranaga needed some dissenting heads to roll to effectively sell his surrender. Hiromatsu took one for the team even when Toranaga would've preferred it be one of the others. The subtext is all there but Steve, as always, is choosing not to notice because he's already going into this with a one-track mind: that this show is butchering the story as HE wants to see it. I know you feel you have to stick up for your friend, but I think you know my points are valid.
I also care what's in the book, as the book is so masterful and engaging that I never put it down for three days except to sleep. I read it while eating and defecating. Best book I ever read. and the book unlike a move can show you how almost EVERY character in the book does, as Harris has said ... plots to improve their lot/standing in life and how Toranaga is the master puppetmaster to make it work toward his own ends.
@@boxtears I believe you are wrong about their reaction to the book, correct on the show. yes it was COMPLETELY panned in Japan and for very obvious reasons. The book is Toranaga centric and the 80's show written to show on TV to American audiences only incorporated the parts of the book where Blackthorne plays a major role. So this is completely logical and fair reaction of the Japanese., but I haven't read/seen anywhere that the original book was panned by the Japanese. Can you please show me where and how you make this assumption? Evidence? because I'm going to call BS on that part of you claim (the Japanese hating the book) as it's actually highly respectful and focuses on Japanee characters and culture. ()and of course Clavell threw in the white guy to engage his what would mostly be white English reading audience. )
@@bogeyb200 That's funny because I've never met anyone who says the book has a strong second half, if anything it blueballs the reader by essentially being incomplete. So if that's what you consider the "best book you've ever read" you need to read more books. I recommend the Foundation saga.
This is leading to the civil war of Toranaga. The episode was awesome. What is Mariko's part in Crimson Sky? Because it's obvious that she has to do her part for Toranaga.
They are so off book at this point who knows what they are going to do. In the book, Mariko attempts to lead the hostages that Ishido is keeping out of the capital. Historically, Mariko's counterpart did the same.
there is no Crimson Sky (and there won't be) as charging the castle would never work and Toranaga in whatever version cannot be painted as that stupid and reckless. It was always a ruse.
Don’t like how they mad John useless but BUTTTT I’m so happy we don’t have to watch a relationship.. we don’t need that.
I think the show may have lost me with this one. Not because I don't care about the characters but because I care about them too much. You can only watch so much of people being moved around and sacrificed like chess pieces.
They're _NOT_ doing it at the expense of Blackthorne! Have some faith, there's a bigger picture, things are being done for a *reason* I guarantee it. C'mon, guys, I expect you to pick up on stuff like this, you're usually on point...
you're right in the sense that Blackthorne doesn't play a role in the major story, outside of acts of individual bravery and his romance with Mariko. He's a PAWN, with most people outside of Toranaga (and Mariko) wanting him dead (especially the Catholics, again excluding Mariko)) That's why I get so infuriated with idiotic simplistic, exhibiting full ignorance of source material comments of "white savior" nonsense. But he has become a NON character. granted I think one could argue Clavell wrote him to be interesting and charming for his (white) English reading audiences but in this version he's an oaf and a boor.
I love that BlackThorne hasn't been made to be some sort of 'white saviour' in the show. He's flawed, a fish out of water and messy. While he opens Mariko's eyes to love, it is in the setting of Japanese honour. I'm happy he isn't portrayed as swooping in and saving everyone. Everything feels earnt and there's growth so don't agree with Steve as while it's in the book, it was written in 1975 during a different period.
again, he cannot be a white savior or any savior (have you READ THE BOOK!!!) He can't even save himself much less anyone else. He's powerless to the great game around him something Mariko recognizes and in the book she protects him best as she can in the end) . However, he can be a more charming and sympathetic character (how would he "get the girl, were he not?) They also refuse to honor the book character and the real life character by his authentic and genuine interest in Japan and Japanese culture. because the writers said they wanted him to be a European "colonialist" (that's what all the OTHER white characters are FOR!!!) Blackthorne by not being them is what makes him interesting, and intriguing (and more attractive to Mariko)
@@bogeyb200 didnt read your whole comment cause you sound like a little b-tch. Blah blah blah.
I’m glad they don’t focus on the romance or Blackthorn. That’s the least interesting part of the show.
guess what. I agree! but there is zero chemistry or romance or anything between him and Mariko on this show. And there needs to be, because Mariko saves his white ass in the end.
Toranaga is a political figure and not meant to be loved. That said, if he truely surrendered, Hiromatsu would kill himself after Toranaga's death to show his loyalty, as Mariko has explained to Blackthorne. It would be satisfying if Toranaga chose to fight alongside his best friend, and might consequentially die with him as a military hero. This however, is not Toranaga and it's OK to hate him for that.
Feels like you're missing the bigger picture...
@@jollyrayda The bigger picture of winning a war? That's not what I need to care. History is littered with people excusing authoritative people with "bigger picture. History is also full of critisms about these people's behaviours in spite of these "bigger pictures"
fair point but people, and our histories are complex. They can be all these things. Political.. hated.. AND loved. or even a mixture of both)
Underselling blackthorn is hurting the show as there is no sense that Mariko has any doubts about her path and desire to slip away with John. John as comes across a bumb ling idiot so her disinterest is even warranted in this version of show. Toranaga is the star of this version and that's cool but it's at the cost of John's development.
couldn't agree more. This Blackthorne is brave, yes and learns Japanese yes, but otherwise an oaf and a boor. Absolutely no charm and zero chemistry with Mariko. Have zero idea why she would had pillowed with him even once (unless out of complete curiosity)
The one thing I don’t get, and maybe someone can help me out with this, why would ochiba want to even get married? Marriage for woman in this time is not a good deal what so ever? As they have said I the show a husband could just kill his wife if he chooses and there would be no consequences. And plus I would imagine she loses a lot of power (which I also dont know how she has so much)
So, if the writers are intending to make Blackthorne more of an antagonist via portraying his more colonialist side than in the book & old TV version, are they going to establish this within the next two final episodes, or contrary to what the creators have said, will there be a second season? I can say that if there is a season two & Blackthorne's character is furthermore diminished in the show, I'll probably lose interest & stop watching altogether.
yes, they are very much keeping him as a "colonialist" (interesting observation, I haven't thought of it that way, but that's very astute of you and would FIT the political ideology milieu of the moment) . Unless they make major changes in the plot, at this point, Blackthorne is completely powerless to everything happening around him. He doesn't have his ship. He's a delivery boy. In the book only Mariko's intervention and own machinations save his white behind. It's all very intricate in the book. If this version turns you off re Blackthorne development (and Mariko) as it also does me .. I would really urge you to read the book. It never ceases to captivate.
there cannot be a 2nd season, unless they're going to write their own new book. The book/story is nearing its climax with Mariko's and Blackthorne's (and Yabu's) travel to Osaka and what happens there.
@@bogeyb200 Yes. I will. I'm a sucker for an epic love story, & it looks like I'm not going to find it here in this TV adaptation.
@@bogeyb200 I have no idea how it ends. That's why I wondered if, despite the creators saying there is no season two, there would be. They really duped people who loved this iteration of Blackthorne (in the first few episodes) into thinking he would be a more prominent character, didn't they.... Yeah, glad the finale will be final. Lol
@@ameliacraiig4193 well their love story is just one aspect of the book. but what's really fun (for me at least) is how the book goes inside the brain and thoughts of almost every character)
Ooh boy...just quit, fellas...do something else 😂
You can disagree as much as you want about the way Blackthorne is presented in this version - though I happen to believe it throws the show badly off balance - but underlying that problem is Jarvis's acting. He does't 'sell' this version - no way. It's glaringly obvious in his altercation with Salaman. And I'm inclined to think that's intentional. It's how the 'Showgun-ners' wanted it. It's the definition of 'woke.' Straight white men cannot be allowed to be heroic or admirable or superior in any way. On the contrary, they have to be cut down at every opportunity so that women and BIPOC can be centered.
Be careful or you'll get swept up in the great awokening that is coming. Boo! 😂