Shogun Episode 8 Recap & Review
Vložit
- čas přidán 9. 04. 2024
- Ross Bolen and Kade Orris digest episode 8 of "Shōgun" from Hulu/FX. Tune in later this week on www.Patreon.com/OystersClamsCockles for further discussion fueled by hotline calls from listeners!
Grab some merch at www.BolenMedia.com/shop...
Video Produced by Kade Orris
Presented by Bolen Media: www.BolenMedia.com
#shogun #fx #fxonhulu #hulu #shogunfx #shōgun - Zábava
I think yabus obsession with death is based around the subconscious desire to make seppuku or dying in combat not seem so bad, if you have a pain death catalog you can justify your own belly being sliced as not so bad one day.
💯
The time Hiromatsu interjected was when one retainer put his hands on his wakizashi. It was a way to deescalate. Otherwise more blood would have been shed in that meeting.
Also, Hiromatsu made a huge error earlier in the episode when he told the contingent of samurai waiting outside the preliminary meeting that Toranaga will attack since he would not send the priest back to Osaka with the message otherwise. Spies could be everywhere and there might be a spy within their ranks; that was a careless leak of communication.
The defeat and surrender needed to be sold and make their enemies overconfident and complacent. And what best way to convince the enemy than to convince your allies. And what better sacrifice than his own right hand man, who, in dying sells the defeat and makes up for the aforementioned mistake.
Also, that was why Hiromatsu called Buntaro to second him, not Yabushige or any of those senior looking retainers. He had to convey to him that the plan is still on. And that’s the coded message of “now you know how it feels to be denied”. It was not (at least not mainly) to humble his son or make him realize what he has done to Mariko. He went further and say “believe in your lord even when he seems to no longer believe in himself”. That was the most direct way of saying the plan is on without alerting any spy that there is even a plan.
Then there’s the exchange where Hiromatsu said to Toranaga that “you do believe in useless deaths” as a callback to episode one where he commits a retainer to death just for speaking out of turn towards Ishido. The understanding passed between them and the deed is done. And Toranaga was left there with the impossible task of keeping his Mask on, not showing weakness, not grieving his friend, and convincing everyone that he was broken.
49 days -- These 49 days are considered a period of mourning and are viewed as particularly important days within the 'kinichi hoyo' (days after death). In many traditions, the urn containing the ashes is interred in a ceremony called nōkotsu (納骨) on the 49th day, and the family stays in mourning until this. Depending on local customs there are a series of events during the 49 days.
It is not just Japan -- Tibetan Buddhists believe that there is an in-between stage known as the bardo which can take up to 49 days; whereas Theravada Buddhists (from Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia) consider that rebirth can be immediate.
Hmm. I think hiromatsu was unsure up until he was face to face with toranaga and finally realized “ohhh… he has to show EVERYONE that he is surrendering in order for his plan to work” so even thought hiromatsu never got confirmation of a plan, he knew his best friend in his heart and knew deep down he was not going to surrender and that he had a plan. A plan that relies on literally everyone being convinced that he has given up. So when buntaro is like “im gonna kms too” hiromatsu was like “no you HAVE to survive and support toranaga even if you think he’s given up” so he’s saying he knows there’s a very VERY secret plan. So hiromatsu goes through with it as his contribution to the “plan” so everyone believes even further that toranaga has given up. It’s the ultimate sacrifice to ensure that the plan works.
49 days is exactly 7 weeks. 50 days would have been 7 weeks and one day. As you can see, 49 days is actually the more sensible number than 50 in this case.
This is my read:
There was no collaboration between the lord and the vassal-his best friend.
The vassal thought the lord had a plan, but his faith withered as time went on and no plan was revealed to him.
The vassal didn’t want to believe this, but the lord had done such a convincing job persuading everyone of the surrender and keeping it so locked up within himself to ensure it works- that the vassal started to believe his lord really was going to surrender.
The lord is sick of the pointless dying. He did not want his friend to kill himself. His friend believed that the lord was truly giving up, and did his duty to the clan to oppose such a defeat.
The vassal threw down the gauntlet. He said he was gonna do the thing if the lord didn’t change his path.
There was nothing the lord could do at that point. He could not fold his hand and show his cards in a room full of men with few he could really trust. He was angry and heartbroken at the way this played out.
That wasn’t the character acting.
This was a most unfortunate outcome.
The lord only trusted in himself to not give any inkling that he was playing possum.
The lord did not predict his son’s attack on his half brother and ultimate demise. Nor did he predict that his friend would kill himself. These were extreme casualties of the insular game the lord is executing.
He thanked them both for being loyal to the end, and is committed to honoring them by not wasting any time and laying waste to their enemies.
Yours was also my initial impression of what happened. But on second watch, I noticed he told Mariko Hiromatsu "knew" what he had to do. What does he mean by that? I'm certain Hiromatsu was not informed of the plan by Toranaga before the final meeting. And like you, I also believed he self deleted to genuinely protest Torinaga's surrender. But the line by Toranaga --Hiromatsu knew what he had to do.--makes we wonder, like the most popular theory-- if Hiromatsu read Toranagas mind at that moment and intentionally committed Seppuku to sell the ruse.
Ur storyline is correct. It's a little hard to understand for non japanese what they believed and how they live for back then.
It's understandable the way Buntarho loved Mariko, why Hiromatsu chose his death and Toranagas pain of losing him.
If some ppl use moe imagination and not to judge with their current standard, the show would be more interesting. Want them to enjoy it!
By the way because how Toranagas did and for what he was, made what it is in Japan after what will happen in this show I suppose
From japan
The intro song goes so hard for shogun
i’m just still confused as to whether this was planned all along or if hiromatsu saw the generals were about to revolt and him and toranaga kind of looked at each other and kind of came up with it on the fly. it seems either is possible.
Here's the thing. Toranaga's cough starts off when he enters and exits a room. But when get's angry it mysteriously disappears. I never bought it from the start. It's all a performance for the priest and the spies to take back to Ishido that this time. Toranaga is finished.
When the generals still don't sign, Toranaga and Hiromatsu have to really sell it to the room. So that even if some of the generals don't sign onto the suicide pact back to Osaka. The main message brought back to Ishido will be that Mr. T was so serious about surrendering he forced Hiromatsu to commit sepeku and his son sliced off the head rolling into Toranaga's lap.
Like a Trojan horse, they have to lull Ishido in a false sense of security. Hiromatsu understood that. Especially since Hiromatsu has seen Toranaga sick before.
Toranaga is playing with all of his Hawks… He’s broken all of them to his fist. He’s released them.. and given them freedom to hunt as only hawks can. He knows them so well.. he’s confident he knows what prey the Anjin Hawk.. Yabushige Hawk and Mariko Hawk will attack. As example.. Toranaga already rightly anticipated that Anjin would seek out Yabushige and that even Yabushige would refuse.. However… Hiromatsu’s sacrifice now opens up the predictable move .. that Yabushige will now seek out an alliance with Anjin for self preservation..
The Tea Ceremony is, in effect, joint meditation between the participants. The setting, movements, and protocol is very regimented.
Toronaga for sure had that all planned out. Hiromatsu has such faith in Toronaga's plan for Japan that he was fine with killing himself for the benefit of all.
It was definitely planned but the trick was not meant for Hiromatsu but for the other generals - that's what Toranaga's orig chess play was for, but Toranaga was absolutely dumbstrucked for a moment when Horimatsu offered himself instead of the other generals Matsu used to take care of - knowing the man Hiromatsu as the man. Toranaga cannot hold back on his decision, and even looked back at the other generals hoping they would offer themselves than his best man, then Hiromatsu shouted, 'This is between me and Torinaga!"... Bro the rest was history...
Lady Daiyan told Lady Ochiba in a earlier episode during the " non play" that she was choosing the wrong ally( Ishida)
Hiromatsu’s death is planned but his son’s death is not. If you really look closely the moment Hiromatsu and Toronaga staring at each other before Hiromatsu says ‘So you do believe in senseless deaths’, there’s a fleet of moment when Toronaga let out a sympathetic expression, but very very subtle, nearly uncatchable, then cuts back to Hiromatsu also has that subtle look of acceptance for a split second. So I bet Hiromatsu understands that he has to die for the cause. Is it pre-planned? Maybe not, but that’s not the point and no need to know. The fact is, he dies to secure the news of Toronaga totally surrendering, also persuades Yabushige to go to Osaka with Blackthorne. They definitely will play a part in Osaka as useful pieces with Mariko as the main chess.
The ending scene is also quite bittersweet on how you view Toronaga, as his son definitely does not die for the sake of giving his father more time, but Toronaga twists the narrative and ‘acknowledges’ the gift his son sends him. If you think about this, Toronaga is very cold to people, even to his close ones, as he can just twists and turns whoever’s death as a gratitude when those deaths are not intentional for his purpose. Thus, Blackthorne is correct. He’s manipulative to the point that it’s scary. Whatever he talks to Mariko in that room after Hiromatsu’s death can all be lies to manipulate Mariko to do things…
Last but not least, Lady Ochiba is not having an emotional impact on the Taiko’s wife’s death. She quickly switch off her emotions in a second once the lady was dead, meaning the ‘crying’ in the earlier moment is fake. She hates her to guts and the medicine she gives her in the last moment might even be poison. Again, she is manipulative to a point that she can just hide herself and no one can know what she actually thinks.
Both Toronaga and Lady Ochiba are actors who can lie to themselves for manipulation…
Great job, y'all. Subbed
I think the benefit to Toranaga was it was the ultimate proof he’s defeated and they won’t be prepared for Crimson sky ninja style
11:15 even in Western militaries, there are strict rules for what uniforms you wear based on the occasion. You wouldn’t go to a formal ceremony like a funeral in full camo and body armor, which is basically what Toranaga’s generals were doing.
I'm pretty sure Yabu is not just putting together a book. But also, recording in great detail his observations on these various ways to die. And conducting the 'experiments' himself!
the generals still believed they could talk Toranaga into fighting, but Hiramatsu seppuku convinced them Toranaga cant be convinced its over give up.
Mr. T likes to use his different species of falcons to describe human behavior. To both Yoshi and now Mariko he uses his falcon analogies to explain why he knows certain individuals will respond in a certain way when sufficiently motivatived. I suspect Mariko is sent to tell the Anjin when the time is right ... to fire his canons on the walls of Osaka Castle.
RIP Barrett!!!😢
Thanks for the spoiler in your picture.
T to H-M: “My agreement at Yokosé was nothing more than a trick to gain time” T said affably. "Ishido took the bait....." T's plan is to DELAY.....
Yes H-M out survives Yabu in the book and after Yabu's head is taken we hear no more dialogue from him. The show choosing to have H-M act earlier in the timeline is a choice - ok - but there will be a cost in terms of deeper plot development. Having mulled on this I agree with the show runners to have H/Old Iron Fist commit Sepu rather than "just" hang around to persuade Tora to delay and delay is a far more convincing plotline -- the show's approach is far more compelling to his potential allies and enemies and more importantly to Mariko and wavering allies. No the show got it right.
In the traditional tea ceremony, it is proper for the person serving the tea not to face the guest.
Yeah! You’re one of the few who catch that Mariko and Blackthorne are low-key dating! 😊 I say, those are their moments flirting each other by giving those moments of arguments and tense conflict…
If you watch the promo of episode 9 which has just dropped, they show them together. Take a look at that, and I’m quite sure that they’ll pillow that night before the big showdown!
"The man who stands at the greatest height is the loneliest man in the realm"
I will die on this hill and I know I would get a lot of flak for this given that I have a male portrait:
I love that Mariko declined Buntaro's offer for a mutual suicide in the tea house scene. How she went about it and her choice of words, not so much. lets break it down.
1. From the flashback on episode 6, we can glimpse that Buntaro had always longed for Mariko. Mariko, on the other hand never really liked him, or even looked down on the Toda clan back then (confirmed by her saying to Ruri-hime that the Toda clan is a worthless alliance and that his father is casting her aside; and later to Toranaga that his father should have married him better)
2. We learn from the Toranaga couple's councelor arc that Buntaro did try ti aooease her but her icy demeanor never melted. And that he had to bear double insult of Sparing the life of a traitor's daughter; who later converted to Catholicism. double whammy right there.
3. then Toranaga revealed that, in fact, distancing her from the fight and marrying her off to someone who ensured she lives was part of her father's plan... BUT, come episode 7, she requests Toranaga to allow her to end her life.
we are coming from all that build up before the tea-house scene. so you can see a great deal of inconsistency in her character. it's either that or she is being consciously spiteful and saying the most hateful and vile thing that she knows will break his husband at this point. AND IT MAKES NO SENSE UNLESS THE PLAN WAS TO MAKE MARIKO SO DISLIKEABLE. and then to go around later and tell blackthorn that "when loyalty starts it has no end otherwise it is not loyalty", I call hypocrite. Just the previous episode, you asked for death from Toranaga who revealed to you your own father's grand design (a betrayal of your duty to your father and then to your Lord), then a scene before you rejected joining your husband in a seppuku of protest (a betrayal of your marriage); you really are in no position to berate and/or remind Blackthorne about the importance of loyalty.
Now, let me throw an olive branch and suggest how to better handle the scene (I am no writer so this is rudimentary but would make more narrative sense and progress Mariko's arc in a more positive way). "When we were a younger couple I resented you for the wrong reasons (this works as a good opening statement as it is an admission also of her misreading the great plans his father for her); and I know i have caused you great suffering by repeatedly asking you to let me die all this years (this shows accountability); BUT I have always respected Buntaro, the great warrior. What you are saying now dishonour's your father who have said earlier that he Believes Toranaga will fight. It dishonours our Lord whom you also doubt. And you dishonour yourself. I would sooner live a thousand years than die in this manner which you suggest"
Again, I am no writer and this is just a rudimentary thing, but I think this would have rounded her character more and would connect with her entire arc from the beginning (where we have been told that she did indeed want to die for she thought that was her duty then) to the present with every new information revealed to her giving her that change in perspective. I especially hate the fact that she did the right thing by rejecting his offer for death, and they use that as an excuse to give Mariko the right to act so vile, petty, and cruel.
And before anyone types the Usual Butthurt crap: NO, that does not mean that Buntaro's previous actions were excusable. Of course it is wrong for her to lay hands on her wife. And if he can show such effort in something as delicate and meticulous as the tea ceremony, he should have tried to communicate better with her wife instead of being this clumsy around her as we saw on screen. BUT. Nonetheless. It does not justify what she did to him here.
I disagree. I think it is hypocritical to speak all those things when she is now being more and more honest to her feelings. I think at this point, she no longer cares and just to burn bridges, but to directly tells him yet again what she wants. I don’t find her dislikable. In fact, thank god she finally slap him in his face.
And as for the term ‘loyalty’ - what kind of loyalty are you talking about? Loyalty to whom? For Mariko, she doesn’t owe Buntaro any loyalty because the ‘husband and wife’ relationship is not truthful, and Buntaro is not loyal to her first. Buntaro’s loyaty is fake. Her loyalty by rejecting him is honest. Her loyalty lies on her own terms, and she was always like this. And I don’t think she was schooling Blackthorne in that scene. I think she is hinting to him that the loyalty she has to Toranaga is beyond a ritual. Her loyalty is not the loyalty most people understand…
@@georgeseurat then why did he ask Toranaga for permission to die on episode 7; when by episode 6 the truth was revealed to her already? And we are talking of Samurai Loyalty here, none of that “my feelings” or “my truth” please. Keep your argument strictly within the confines of the show as presented. I welcome your differing opinions and I commend the way you articulated them. I want this discourse to continue as I want to learn if there are holes in my logic or blind spots I failed to see. Please keep them coming.
@@khaii13 it is under the confines of the show, but the show is full of ambiguity of what the speaker actually means, much of all these wordings are not clear cut with one meaning but can be double meaning. As for episode 7, she ask for death is to save herself. She’s a person who knows when to speak what to whom. That’s her character. As the podcast here said, that scene telling Blackthorne about loyalty is low-key dating. They speak in a certain way, but they mean another way with their bodies…
@@georgeseurat I see. Those are very good observations. But it does not erase the problem that those things, especially her actions by episode 7, directly contradicts her sense of loyalty as a Samurai’s daughter.
To reiterate, we are in agreement that she is correct in rejecting Buntaro’s offer of a double suicide. But how she worded her rejection is a form of pettiness that is beneath her character as she has already learned that marrying her off to someone who would ensure she lives is part of her father’s plan.
I’m sure my original argument was long winded and verbose. So for now, I will focus on the one point we are currently discussing.
It is hypocritical of her to call Blackthorne out on Loyalty given that she herself flip-flopped and directly asked Toranaga for death when her own loyalty was put into question and asked directly to chose between the cause her father laid out for her or the Anjin.
@@khaii13 And that’s why Blackthorne throws back his idea of loyalty, and basically tells her that, ‘you don’t mean that’, and she knows…
Cant wait for the spin off with Yabu, 1 Million Ways to Die in Feudal Japan.
Toranaga: My boy Hiro, we need to make sure Ichibo belives I give up but we cant let our generals know that im not giving up.
Hiromatsu: Okay... hmm. Dont worry, if things go the wrong way, I sort it out.
Toranaga: How?
Hiromatsu: Dont worry. Ill take care of it. DO your thing. I know my duty well.
*general puts hand on swordhilt*
Hiromatsu: SEPPUKU!!!
Toranag: WTF!? I mean, this will do it, but... WTF!?
Please read this! ❤️
//Acknowledging one another's humanity proves key. Unlike every other man Mariko's encountered, John Blackthorne recognizes her as a person first and a woman second. He respects her, values her contributions, and seeks her opinion. He never expects contrition, obedience, or silence. Nor does he demand her time, even after they sleep together. Instead, he offers genuinely selfless affection. Blackthorne's difference, while intriguing enough to warrant sexual attraction, embodies the freedom Mariko lacks. Mariko letting John within her emotional walls says more than their many exchanged words. He sneaks his way through not because he exploits cracks, but because Mariko allows herself to be vulnerable. It's no great leap to assume Mariko has never been in love. Imagine her surprise when her equal and opposite isn't just a foreigner, but a man her marriage forbids her from having.//
//Mariko's upcoming voyage marks the first time she and John won't be joined at the hip. The trailer for Shōgun's penultimate episode does tease an emotional scene between them. Beyond that: who knows? More unconsummated longing and loaded sentences? Do we stand any chance of a kiss? The latter's as unlikely as a happy ending, which, admittedly, makes Anna Sawai and Cosmo Jarvis’s chemistry seem underutilized. They are fraught yet tender, electric but combative. If I thought the hot springs scene was breathtaking, then the brothel exchange left me unconscious. Sawai plays Mariko as taken aback by the depth of her feelings. The yearning in Jarvis's eyes is acute enough to simultaneously melt the earth and burn it.//
//Their pining, their mirrored displacements, and the meeting of cultures that mesh but cannot achieve symbiosis: their romance represents the series' heart. In another reality, this pair might have a chance. As it stands, they're as akin to soulmates as the situation permits. No matter how Shōgun concludes, this couple will destroy me.//
collider.com/shogun-blackthorne-mariko-romance/
interesting you said toranaga (the character) is a good actor, because his real-life counterpart was a huge fan of noh theater (the play that we saw in ep 6 that depicts the late taiko beheading mariko's father and his courtship with lady ochiba). he wrote and acted in many many noh plays throughout his life, so he was indeed a great actor. in fact during the years after the events of this show, noh play ended up being incorporated into the formal training of samurai of several clans (along with calligraphy, tea ceremony, etc). samurai are trained not only in battles. like in this ep, you saw buntaro, who is a master in preparing tea ceremony.
Did this guy just say he’s never seen Braveheart? 🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️ this kid needs some Movie Culture 🤷🏼♂️
"Have you seen Braveheart" , "No I have not"
Me: 😒🤦🏾♂️😒🤦🏾♂️😮😧😳
Anyone notice how much one of the Edo Generals looks like Mac from Its always Sunny....
a small note. You do not use the honorific SAMA when referring to yourself.
49 days because that's 7 weeks
So obviously, this show is very good, but if they dont bring it home with these last episodes, then it will forever be just short of being great.. all this posturing and planning, posturing and planning, posturing and planning since episode 1. There better be a payoff equal to all this.
49 days is based on the Buddhism practiced still today in Japan. Many things related to death and funerary customs are also still associated with bad luck in Japan, which is also one of the reasons 4 and 9 are like the number 13 in the west. 49 days is called shi-juu-ku nichi, 4 (shi) is a homophone with the word for death and 9 (ku) is a homophone with the word for suffering.
The 49 days is related to the number 7
When they said this is the new GOT I didn't expect them to do the suck ass ending as well. This story is getting stupid.
I cannot make a distinct fact about Japanese culture, but since a lot of cultural influence of this country are come from China, I do know that in ancient Chinese culture, class is very crucial as much as the Japanese, and if you’re a lower rank subject to the other person you’re talking to, you cannot directly look at the other person’s eyes to talk to. I think in the tea ceremony, the way that they sit is to avoid eye contact, same as if anyone who is a subject to Toronaga and needs to talk to him, they cannot look directly to his eyes but to look down a bit to avoid eye contact (like the spy, or Fuji talking to Blackthorne), as the wife is a lower rank than the husband, and this is a serious event even though it’s private…
This also is a fascinating cultural detail that, if what in Chinese culture is also accurate in Japanese culture, then those moments when Blackthorne looks at Mariko, and she doesn’t look away are significant. Sometimes, she avoids his eyes, but there are times when she looks straight to him…
I think your fucking thumbnail just spoiled the episode for me...thanks...
Love the podcast, but this Kade guy was wet blanket the whole time (as in not interesting, taking away quality). Previous co host was way better.