The Budget MIATA has REDEEMED Itself
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- čas přidán 28. 07. 2019
- Testing our budget 1999 Mazda Miata MX-5 after modifying it, we realize why the Miata is one of the best and most fun track cars out there.
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The Miata is the most fun you can have on track with a small budget. Like if you agree!
Α ~200HP car cannot power oversteer with semislicks on a track unless it is badly balanced. Miatas have 50/50 weight distribution, so they are perfrect for small slides with scandinavian flicks or trail braking but cannot power oversteer when the tires have grip for >300HP. My 5c.
If you want to reduce rear grip in the corners I'd take away some negative Camber from the rear, negative Camber increases your grip when cornering so u don't want that in the rear 🤷🏻♂️
@@law5223 or a lot more lol
@@ashas7730 like stance boy Camber? Then you'd have no straight line grip 😂 but I guess it'd work, zero contact patch must = skids right? 😄
@@lifesgo0d yeah the super grippy track tyres and won't help 😄 most low power cars are momentum cars for sideways action tbf.. that being said at drift days in the UK there is consistently a couple of Miatas so it can't be too bad at skids 👍🏼 they seem to do ok, almost certain they'll have welded diffs though 😄
"It's just a full throttle car everywhere!" You guys are understanding how to drive Miatas now. :)
"It just grips". What a great problem to have.
Such great cars. Something about driving a slow car fast is so much fun.
Damn if only more CZcams channels would listen to thier viewers! Great result guys
Last episode I commented about budget and how it tends to get away from us sometimes. But I forgot something important: Never compromise on what you want, even if that means going over budget. Always make sure your car turns out how you want it, even if that means undoing, redoing, or completely changing something, and even if that costs more than you want it to. Trust me, I learned the hard way after 4 cars and being impatient. Now I'm taking my time, spending the extra, and building something I'm going to love.
Make sure you have a spare Cam Angle Sensor and a 10mm wrench. These are known to die when the bay gets too hot, if they're old. Very quick swap. Also it would be a good idea to keep a main relay in the car as spare too.
You sir, are a legend. I can't recommend this more!
Just have a spare Miata parts car follow you everywhere...
i can second that lol
Is that the mk2 & mk2.5?
@@jmpcrx Yup
Alright, ten minutes is apparently my limit for watching two guys try to figure out why their MX-5 handles like an MX-5.
pause video
scroll down to read comments
see this comment, and look to see how far ive gotten
9:58
Mikael Gaiason it took you ten minutes to figure out how slow a Miata is? Nice.
@@jacobwest7893 Got it at 12:07 guess I'm patient
With the car's ability to now run 'enough' front camber (with the side benefit of creating more upper tire clearance room), maybe now add a little front fender roll and then some 10mm spacers each side to widen the front track and increase the front tire width. As an industry example of how critical this small change was, when the 997GT3 came out, the car suffered almost uncontrollable understeer - what fixed this issue was changing the rear sway bar to the slightly thicker GT2 bar, rotating the front strut to the increased camber zone pin location (benefit being the huge increase created in upper front tire / fender space and thus the ability to easily run a 245 width tire (or even a 265 with a fender roll) but also running a more aggressive offset wheel to increase the front track - the car transformed dramatically - and in fact, when the 997GT3gen2 was released, this is the exact change they made to the car's front end. Finally, I would consider reducing the car's rear camber to the -1.8 to -2.0 range in combo with the above front track - another small change that should very very slightly free up the rear. I might also suggest bumping up the rear spring rate 100#s to reduce front lift under throttle. Car looks like a blast and brings back some great memories of my tracking days.
Lets do all these mods that add tons of grip
Lets try to get the rear end loose on the track
???
they should say eliminate the understeer
I have more fun in my 140hp car with old worn street tyres than with nicely scrubbed in AD08s. Quite a bit slower, but less wear and tear on the brakes and on me.
Do you have a spreadsheet/summary on how much $ and hours have been spent for this built?
3 mins in and i'm still happy you guys did the upgrades, love this series, happy you carried on with it
I’ve got a 95 with coil overs, sticky tires and exhaust and what it lacks in speed it makes up for in smiles. The exhaust sounds just push you faster and faster and turn boring commutes into time trials and the car is just “cute” enough to keep you humble. Love this build, keep it up!
Put the front bar back in, and set the rear camber to 0 degrees. Chassis engineer Mike Kojima suggests this for cheap drift builds. It's fun as hell, super progressive rear breakaway.
That front shimmy, I've heard a lot of Miata guys suggest fender braces for that.
Glad Y'all got it sorted out, they are great little cars to go rip on. can't wait to see future videos with it.
Great results! Well done, look forwarding to seeing many more laps on the silver missile!
I just purchased an 02 NB so these videos have been awesome to binge watch.
Adding a lot of “wants” to the list, thanks guys!
Liking the mod and test / drive approach guys
Who else wishes they would have tried to make the pass on the SRT!?!?!
Slow SRT!! Lol
@@manolom1669 Well, it's a real tight track and those cars don't handle amazingly. They're quite heavy. And it's possible he had stock tires and brake pads on it.
Gotta give playboiz proper room. They will just ram you video game style and then you are just a clip in a crash compilation
Big cars are never going to be quick in the corners.
srt4 understeers like a mofo lt would plow right through this track lol
1:11 As suggested by Keith Tanner (head of Flyin' Miata) in one of his Miata books, you "increase rear toe-in" to get rid of mid-corner (not corner-entry or exit) understeer. He also suggests softer front springs and stiffer rear springs. Better yet call Flyin' Miata and see if he could give some advice.
Good to hear the head of Flyin' Miata actually knows his stuff.
ALL CARS should run at least a little rear toe in and the proper way to make a car oversteer is with spring rates.
Funny 949 runs stuffer fronts and softer rears.
Guys, you have toe-IN on the front of the car, which helps straight line stability but can make the turn-in feel a little sluggish. A more performance-oriented alignment usually wants a little toe-out, but that alignment readout sheet is showing toe-in. They should re-do it if toe-out is what you asked for.
glad someone else caught that.
From the title I'm going to assume the mods helped.
SHAKE IS THE EBAY LIP VIBRATING. I have that lip, it needs some sort of support to stiffen it. If you take the lip off it’ll go away.
I think they said the vibration is through the wheel.
@josh if the lip is moving the whole car then you might feel it through the steering
Love this format in combination with your regular build and track format. A nice change every once in a while.
Wow, great series gents! Really improved & validated my framework for prioritizing/fine-tuning mods to my 2002 Miata SE (focus on street-performance w/ compliance for my NVH-averse pooch 🐕🤢). I'm just getting started after months of agonizing analysis paralysis 😅.
Just got started w/ proper 15" wheels/tires that dropped 8 lbs each corner - huge improvement. Swapping the PO's crap coilovers for Xidas in the next couple days. Thanks to you guys, I'm way better prepared to dial it in. The shifter rebuild seems like a no brainier now that I've seen how easy it is.
Strong arm fender braces are on their way, then frame rails & sound deadening while the carpets are out... I'm optimistic now that the car will be sufficiently transformed!
Glad we could help out and you enjoyed the series.
Sooooooo glad i watched this and have now just ordered a shifter rebuild kit. Thanks a lot chaps.
yeah that's next on my list, assuming I need it. Previous owner may have done it already. I need to pull my console out to check.
I said it in the last video, but I’ll say it again... check the front sway bar for binding. The aftermarket front sway bars bind up on new bushings. The bar binds and will tear the front mounts.
The stock front bar will help though.
"We don't want to spend $1000 on a diff"...
Yes, you would. 🤣
when they lost grip from 1 tire, my first reaction was LSD!!!!
They could always buy a locker ......$130.
Cant wait to get mine out on the roads,, bought a nb in boxes, needing framerails, and it is in complete gulf racing vinyls
NA/NB Miata requires a lot of precision on wheel balance, more than most cars.
Yup, I've had to take mine back to some tyres places due to this - especially on the rears.
Second this. Tolerance is small. Get it done as precisely as your tire balance can possible offer. You will feel the difference. If this still doesn't eliminate it, I'd say just leave it.
mine was really bad. i had balanced mine myself many times at work as precisely as possible, but youd still see the top of the windshield shaking back and forth on the highway. a small imbalance that would normally be imperceptible will resonate in a miata and shake the whole car.
I've had 3 mx5, but only 1 had the illusive vibration come in at around 70mph. The others are smoother the harder you rev.
Great Miata you made there guys, looks like alot of fun to throw about. Can't wait to see some people in this 😄👍🏼
If you have a torsen dif, try the redline ns diff fluid. It is specially formulated to work with those type of lsd's. It made a huge difference in my 99's diff when I changed the fluid. When I bought my car it didn't feel like the lsd was working. After I changed the fluid the diff immediately starting spinning both tires.
I've been out of the game for a few years but I always dialed in my suspension with tire temperatures.
Outside hot = not enough camber
Inside hot = too much camber
center hot = too much air pressure
etc.
That's how I found that on my car (not miata), 350 pound springs needed 6 degrees of camber and 450 pound springs needed 3.5 degrees camber.
After I get tire temperatures good, then I tweak it by how it feels on the track.
Glad those mods worked out for you. Unfortunately with 200TW 225 wide tires on near stock power, I don't think I ever really could power over in my Miata either. On track when I slide the momentum eventually slows the car down enough and it grips again on stickier tires.
i love track day on Speed Academy
Well done getting the Miata sorted PT & DP! This is gonna be fun. 😄
Wow. Such an amazing transformation
Same issue as the TRD 86. Once they put the sticky tires on, it changed the whole dynamics of the car.
I'll spin it out for you guys!
we believe in you, Rich! 😆
The shakiness seems to be more common in NB1 series over nb2. I had the same annoying issue but getting the wheels balanced on a hunter tire balancer and getting the road force balance made it a lot better. But the biggest thing I noticed was actually getting a hard top for the Miata. It makes the most improvement on chassis rigidity in my book.
Nice series! Swapping sway bars will affect your mid corner much more than corner entry.
I’ve been telling you guys since the beginning, run the stock sway bars. My NB has a open diff & still oversteers/drifts like crazy, even with sticky 225/45 BFG Rivals. I love it. Also, the camber difference between the front & the rear should not have to be more than (.5).
I mentioned it in the last shakedown video but was watching closely on this one and it's happening at 105kmh which would match up with the "65 [mph] shimmy". It happened in the 2000 Miata I used to have with all similar mods as yours and didn't go away until I added a hardtop. It's just the chassis flexing/resonating still; aka just the nature of the car.
Potentially the "65 shimmy" (105 kmh for you guys). It's especially noticeable without a hardtop. If it's only happening on left-hand turns then most likely something else like a wheel bearing.
www.miata.net/garage/65_mph.html
100% agree
I was gonna mention in the previous video.. Oem is best for what you're looking for, the closer you are to stock suspension, the more lively it will be
Just a heads up 0.18 degrees is positive toe in the front which is toe in, not toe out. Although that will change a bit under braking but you guys know that. love the content!
This is one of the best sounding miatas I have heard
I don't understand why you're so obsessed with making the car slower. It looks like it handles great. You have to drive a MX5 on the limit for it to get loose.
The federal 595ss is the perfect tire for the NA NB platform it’s characteristics are right on that threshold of grip and loose. It also follows the budget mindset. !
That looks like so much fun. I don't have a track in my area other than a 1/2 mile oval. So I sneak in short power burst where I can.
Castor at 5 and camber at 3 with a tad of toe out on the front sounds perfect but I’d have 2 degrees of camber and a tad of toe in on the back and start the car level but be prepared to tip the car about to dial out any understeer. NS2R are probably a bit too sticky for a Miata so I’d go up on the spring rates.
Front end shake is fixed with fender braces. All you need are Garage Star fender braces, I installed those in my '99 and the random shake from the front is gone.
Hi Guys,
I like you channel and learn a lot of the mods you do and what to upgrade on the cars (haveing both a Miata and BMW in my garage).
What I´m missing is some budget.
You through in a lot of new parts into your project cars and for the Miata it would be interesting to sum up how much $ spend on new parts.
Thanks and keep up with your show - I might be a sponsor.
Per from Sweden
The shake goes away when you put a hard or softop on
Keep the big front sway bar for less bodyroll. Keep the rear and put on regular street all seasons on the back and try to do a hot lap ;)
Awesome video guys, way to improve
What you may feel as a wheel balance issue may actually be a radial runout issue. If you can find a balancer that can measure road force, you will be able to minimize the runout and reduce vibrations. The balancer will measure the runout of the assembly and then measure the slight out of roundness that most wheels have. It will ask you to rotate the tire on the wheel a certain number of degrees to take out as much out-of-round in the assembly as possible. Worked for me!
That car looks super fun, can’t wait to see some head to head action 👍
That's crazy. I had to take the rear bar out of my NA to keep it from crazy overseer and it will still swing out if your not careful.
I've got the same shake in the front end of my NB, I've balanced the wheels, I've replaced all the bushes and balls joints, it's still there.
All the research I've done suggests the cause is "Scuttle shake" or "Cowl shake" from not having a roof.
It's a shame you couldn't fit those door bars in because they might have solved it, otherwise a hardtop reportedly dampens it.
Even having the soft top up makes a noticeable difference. I've seen people put a couple of bars from the middle of the top of the roll bar to windscreen top. Does take a bit of welding though.
I’m sure you’ve done the research to know why I’m asking this, but is it right at 65-75 mph?
I had the same issue on my s2000, I agree I think it’s because the car has no roof. I’m guessing because my car body started to flex over repeated track use. It became really evident when I go off my driveway at an angle. You can hear the car flexing. Just a downside of having a convertible I guess. Maybe more bracing would have helped, though I did have double rollbar installed. That shake was annoying for sure.
@@setra23 thats exactly what i did. made a MASSIVE difference as youd expect from "closing the box". i can yeet over railroad tracks and the car doesnt twist one bit. for reference i had already gotten the FM frame rails and butterfly brace and i couldnt even tell if they made a difference or not.
Try a front strut tower bar. I have one in my nb and there’s no shake. I can go 70mph+ and it feels as stable as it is parked.
What about trying narrower tires? Would be an interesting comparison to see how much tire width effects lap time's
Fender braces help with the cowl shake quite a bit. Take a look at V8Roadsters or Garage Star for a set.
It’s really great all the mods you put on..I think the problem in the end with the over gripiness is you put 8j wide wheels on..This is too wide..Would be better with 7J wide rims..Don’t forget the stock wheels are something like 6j wide..No wonder it grips too much!!Apart from that really awesome mods and super vid’!
You have to throw the car more if you want it to slide on the Nankangs, another way is to increase tirepressure in the rear. If you want a faster and more edgy handling miata you want the Kumho ecsta v70a tire which has very much stiffer sidewalls and higher grip, that way the car gets more agile and will rotate better.
I wish I loved closer to do a hot lap with the miata!! Great work tho! The miata looks fun.
its just a big flex from nangkang not letting you oversteer
I'd try putting the rear bar to the "soft" setting, just to test it. It'll definitely make the diff happier. As I've been saying, those adjustment holes really dont work well and the inside rear gets up in the air too much.
Oh and that alignment, that's toe in up front btw. Toe out would be negative. Unless your guy has his machine set differently ?
the shake could be coming from rust or debris sandwiched between the back of the brake rotor and the front of the hub. Take off the rotors and clean both surfaces with a wire brush. Solved the shake on my 01.
Disconnect a rear sway bar link and see if the diff is still fighting the tires. Obviously it will understeer more but like I said way back when the big rear bar will lift inside rear wheel and unlock the torsen. I ran stock sways and more spring rate to keep it from rolling in the turns and pitching on the brakes.
Another thought is because those juicy tires make so much grip that it's flexing the shit of the chassis effectively lowering the wheel rate. My car was it's best on 185/60/14 smoked 120tw Nankings that camr off of niko's legacy lol it looked cooler on 205/50/15 615k+ and 15x8's but it was nearly as fast and 10 times more fun.
you could try stipping weight in the back more than what you have done... like literally removing extra metal without touching the chassis of course.
I've said this for a number of the videos in this series, but I really hope you guys will get/be able to get Rhett & Link to drive this car. I think that that will bring you a good viewership and also be great content for you and them.
the shake youre experiencing is the 65 mph shimmy, i have it on my NA
Seeing this video makes me very happy iI just bought a miata for a track car
Both of you appear to be wearing your harness belt quite high?
I've always read that the lap belt portion is supposed to be across your hips to prevent internal injuries in the event of a crash. Which is correct?
next set of tires i'm going smaller. i have 225's now and it takes a lot of power to get loose, even with 230whp
youre doing something wrong then lol. my stock engine nb will rotate on power in 2nd gear easy, sometimes even in 3rd, and thats with 245 hankook rs4s. 8k/6k springs, stock sways, more rear camber than front.
Great video, guys.
Yooooo...I was there at the track when they were shooting this...Yellow Mustang waaaay in the back in the pit.
If i remember correctly miatas tend to get positive (out) toe in the rear under suspension loads
Looks like a super fun track car! "F" it whether it rotates or not....sticky cars are where the times are at. Just clutch kick if you want to drift.
It won't get loose because you guys are using track tires on a car with pretty much stock power.
Idk, I have a stock powered civic with the same ns2r's and it oversteers more than this miata lol. Same track too
@@Jon95McC different layout. Light rear end, lift off oversteer and all that...
Talking about the rear diff, on stock lsd's I have had great experience with using Redline heavy schockproof gear oil. that really makes the diff work better, also some stock diff are really worn out and you need to adjust the shims to make it actually lock up, but mostly that gear oil does the trick...
this car doesnt have a clutch type lsd, its a torsen.
@@ICKY427 ah okey, I think my friends car had a torsen diff (might not remember correctly) but he also got a tighter diff by running the heavy shockproof oil.
Im about to do this exhaust set up on my NB1 miata. I already have the ISR, and im really happy with how it sounds. No drone on free way, and no rasp. Which from the video, it doesnt sound very raspy. With the header, does it sound extra droney at all? Most worried about on the free way at 3k rpm. Thanks!
Miatas/mx5/eunos have clutch locking , open or Torsen type diffs depending on the year or type (all special editions have Torsen lsds (s, rs, etc) though)
Have you checked which you have? Mine is a Torsen type 2. It rotates much better than the clutch types as they are usually burned out open plates by the time they are 10 years old.
Its a 20 min job to swap over your diff and costs $200 for the parts.
My mk2 had a torsen and it was a great match for the car and its power level. They should definitely do this.
I'm guessing it's open based on this video but if it is LSD it would be torsen because it is an nb1... open diffs are a dime a dozen but to swap in a torsen it would be close to a grand pretty easily.
Got a stock mk2 mx5 with a torsen 2 diff, oversteers very easily, lots of fun,, maybe it's my tyres?..
You should go 4.77 gear ratio! For the power level will be awesome.
You guys going to do any like semi-pro/pro stuff again like with the Scion FR-S?
All the kit is ordered to make my 140hp '99 NB into a very similar car except with less radical camber and with just AD08s. What power did yours have in this video?
I just started watching this channel. Did you guys fix the EGR CEL?
Miatas really really need perfect wheel balance. Otherwise they'll shimmy above 55 to 60mph (100kmh) to no end and it's incredibly frustrating. Took my wheels and tires 2 times to balance.
I've heard of the shimmy alot, but I have yet to experience it. I do remember once have bought some new tires and going in a light amount of rain and the back end would struggle to stay straight at 40mph and over. It was quite scary, I have to complain to the tire shop for a different brand.
I had to take mine twice as well. It got a little better (but not gone) in the 65 mph zone. I try to just stay on the gas through that and then smooth as glass over 70+ and below 60-. Not horrible at all. Just annoying on a road trip where you get stuck at 65 for hours on end due to speed limits etc....
@@lostboys8297 u follow speed limits?
Did you end up doing control arms to get that camber or was it just the bushings? If so what bushings?
haha I spy The Straight Pipes in the background doing their Veloster track episode (massive camera mount/scaffolding on the back of the Veloster)
Love these guys!
I know that you don’t have infinite track time just for suspension adjustments.
But adjusting four clicks down front, four clicks up rear and also tire pressures in one go… it’s more likely that you are messing up an already balanced car… or you might find what you need by luck. There is no way you are going to pinpoint if all the adjustments you made are on the right direction. You may be masking a bad setting (eg suspension damping) with a good setting (e.g tire pressures).
Speaking of damper settings. Generally, both extreme ends (too soft and too stiff) are going to reduce grip on the adjusted end.
But if you find that there is an already neutral baseline… then actually, a bit higher damping at the end you want more traction during weight transfer is the way to go. If you need more turn in, on an already neutral setup, then you should try to increase by a click or two the front suspension damping, OR decrease by a small bit the rear.
I thing that you are generally applying the rule : softer front for more front grip and harder rear for less rear grip… which is usually true for spring selection and anti-roll bars.. but not for dampers (unless of course you go to the extreme ends)
All in all, the car showed impressive handling from the first minute of this video. I am not sure if it’s you, knowing the track like the back of your hand, meaning that you involuntarily mask any possible imbalance through properly timed transitions and appropriate corner speeds… But honestly, I would stick to middle damper settings for both front and rear and the aftermarket ARB on both front and rear. In the beginning of the video, it looked like the car steered effortlessly with the least steering angle. (or maybe you pushed harder later on the video so there is no way I could judge car balance solely by steering input)
Great content overall! Keep up the good work!
why don't you guys swop the rear tyres with budget road tyre's and not semi's? that would make it oversteer...
Stefan Schoeman aaand would be budget lol :D
Thinking about getting this exhaust do you think this would be a good one to get or is to loud
Great stuff!
"Just when I think you couldn't possibly be any DUMBER, you go and do something like this...and COMPLETELY REDEEM yourself!"
great video!
Can you do a full list of mods you’ve done?
I've seen used torsen diffs for £35-50 and they don't seem to degrade like the viscous ones. Given the money you've spent it seems a shame to not do this. The 1.8s versions had them over here, I had one in mine and even for fast road use it was pretty noticeable.
Thinner tyres that are more appropriate to the car would improve this no end, you’d be a little slower but it’d be more fun.
You’ve added so much grip that that the car only dances at much higher speeds. Keep at 195 tyre width. You only need massive tyres if you’ve got a turbo conversion or K20 under the bonnet.