The ONE PROBLEM the Moza R12 has | Moza R12 Direct Drive and KS Steering Wheel Review
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- Check out Moza products here: mozaracing.com/?ref=suzuki (affiliate link).
In today's video we are having a look ath the Moza R12 direct drive and the KS steering wheel-
Simagic Alpha Mini: simraceshop.de/en/simagic-alp...
0:00 Intro and Disclaimer
0:24 Price and Specs
2:40 NRG Quick Release
3:30 Connection
4:00 KS Wheel
8:15 PC Software - Base Options
12:05 Wheel Options
14:02 - iOS Software
15:05 - Would I recommend it?
16:05 - The Problem of the R12
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I switched from R5 bundle to R12 with KS wheel and there is so much more details in FF! I have it currently on 70% in ACC and it is plenty. There is some weird grainy feeling when the wheel is turned on but it dissapears when ACC is launched. The KS wheel is amazing for the price, it is lightweight, comfortable for small hands, I can be much more precise, tactile feel of buttons is excellent, paddle shifters are great. Es steering wheel in R5 bundle is crap in comparison. I think R12 with KS steering wheel is great value combo for many simracers. Of course the competition is raising so we all can benefit from that. Products are getting better and cheaper...
It would be intresting how you compare the Asetek La Prima to the R12 and the Alpha Mini
It's a pretty simple answer, asetek, alpha mini, moza in that order. Even listening to his words on these when hearing what he's thought about these brands and bases can tell you that.
Glad to see when it comes to the wheel, I was on point with my review. Great job Dan. Although I feel like the one design choice on the KS was wrong was not having 7 way funky. It is truly a great value and I did test on the VRS w/ the hub, no issues there, cannot see the wire having any issues. :)
Just got into sim racing and this is my first ever rig. Now that you’ve pointed out the dragging, I can’t unfeel it. THANKS. guess I have to upgrade already 😂
Alpha Mini owner here: One interesting thing to mention, the Alpha Mini base was actually measured at 12Nm max torque by the iRacing developement team, there is a forum post about it. So you can run it at 12Nm in sim, so your feeling about it was correct. Maybe it is not advertised with this spec due to not being able to sustain that maximum force constantly over a long holding time due to heat issues, like other comments already pointed out.
I personally never felt a decrease in FFB after long sessions at 95% set max torque.
thats really nice from simagic because the moza will overheat to over 70°C and i image that the R12 will overheat even more since im only using the R9 and they have the same base but i bought moza because im not paying 200€ for shipping ☠️
Helpful video. I am coming from a T300 with lc pedals, I was thinking about the R12, but going for the Alpha Mini. Between the lower end encoders and not as detailed ff, and a few other concerns, I feel the my money will be better spent on the MIni. Just hope I can get a black friday deal
I have an r12 and the cogging is there before powering the unit up, then it pretty much dissapears. You'll always feel the cogging if you turn the shaft with your hand, as you are very close to the point of rotation. The further your hands are from the centre (150mm either side in the case of the KS) then the more it subsides.
You may have a unit that slipped through QC, it's not unusual.
“Pretty much”, so it’s still there correct? Looking for a wheel but don’t want to shell out +$800 for a wheel and base that feels like I’m fighting a low res stepper motor.
@@TalksWithNoise I came from a G29 to an R12 with KS and ES wheels. I honestly can't express how good the R12 is. It absolutely does not feel like a 'stepper motor', and I can only imagine that anyone saying that has been lucky enough to use the most expensive SIM equipment on the market, and test equipment out back to back to micro analyse the differences. But for normal simmers the price and availability of the R12 is a no brainer and I don't regret it for a second.
That's great to hear. I've been doing quite a bit of research and was considering the R12, but quite a few on the forums suggested Simagic over Moza.
I have the R12 and not sure what you are talking about with clicking while turned off. Mine turns freely without any resistance. Also I have seen people talk about heat problems but mine never gets hot even after many hours. As for force feedback, I have it at 70% and that is plenty enough for me. I am happy with my gear, but I am just a rookie newbie.
The "random" section you talked about was one of the best settings for me since i like a crisp end on the steering wheel because on fanatec you cant do that and just turn like 30° into thin air before the ffb doesnt lets you go further and these 30° are obviosly wasted because if i need to turn back im turning 30° for nothing 😂
I've had the ES, GS and KS wheel from Moza. The Moza KS wheel is their 2nd cheapest offering but by far the best they offer. The KS is just lacking nicer grips to be Moza's best wheel in all categories.
Right? They absolutely nailed it with the KS wheel.
Funny you mention display on wheels are not ideal or very useful,but say the led light are very helpful. Please make it an option of the new GSI wheel so I can buy one. Thanks for the great reviews!
Ok: twitter.com/gomezsimracing/status/1716427377717154150
Wow. Amazing any ordering info and release date? Just what I have been waiting for. Thanks Dan! @@DanSuzuki
Preorder will start Nov 10th, price should be 300 below the Hyper P1 and it should hopefully ship in about 6-8 weeks 😊
Alpha mini look Great but the steering wheels are more expensive and i like more the Moza one, i need a round wheels with enought boutton on it (for other than racing game )and the first one from simmagic is at 450€.... , i don't wana use a wheels with a cable atached on it , Moza wheels look great , feel good and the price are competitive , they have a shifter and handbrake not expensive too and good enough, for all that point i'm gonna probably choose Moza R12 , i have some time before buying and the Fanatec Clubsport DD look a good alternative (even if i don't realy like fanatec's wheels) it's not out yet but it's near to come and it's probably the only one on the road of Moza for my choice .
Thx for the review .
Do you experience ripple effect on the alpha mini? Also ive seen many complains of base overheating and lowering force to prevent wheelbase damage. Mostly on lower fb bases such as the alpha mini and r12 since people use them close to if not at max force. Unlike the higher end bases where people set them to 40-70% ffb.
no the alpha mini is very smooth
Moza went through many software updates since the launch and this video. I wonder how it compares vs Alpha Mini now.
simagic vfm, maybe consider testing the alpha U??
dan, now that you have had the opportunity to review both, would you recommend the R12 over the alpha mini?
No, the alpha is much better
interesting seeing the R12 being so notchy, the V1 version of the R9 doesn't have that at all when you rotate the wheel without power.
One kind of unrelated question
I know you don't do reviews pf GSI products due to you working for them, which I really respect. But have you considered making a kind of "overview" videos of their products just showcasing the wheels in action?
Since there are very few detailed overviews/reviews available online for products like the Hyper P1, X29 and the new one they just announced, the Hyper SL.
I will probably do something like this in the future when I have time!
I had that cogging effect on my R5 but I used wheel base recovery and reset feature in moza pit house and it got rid of it
Thanks for so detailed review :), I'm deciding between Moza KS and CC F-Core. As you tested both of those wheels, could you tell which of those do you prefer more?
Or which of those do you think is better value for money?
I know there is a big price difference between those twos but after listening to many reviews, I feeling like they might be close to each other in overall performance.
They are both great, I think the Moza is better value! If you’re not bothered by the plastic housing (imo a non issue) then go for it! The F Core has the perfect ergonomics for my hands - but that might be very different for you 😅
does the r9 also have that bump feel of the magnetic windings ? and the R5 ? is this a Moza thing or an r12 thing ? thanks
Unfortunately no idea, I don’t have those
I have had r9 v1 since June 2022 and I don't notice anything it says...maybe if you look for something, you will find it, it also happens with VR, if you concentrate on enjoying the driving you will have fun just as with any other base...
I tried for months to buy a mid range DD setup. After multiple orders having to be cancelled because of waiting weeks and having no tracking no nothing I was forced to give up until the new year. So I’ve spent the last month just having the time of my life on my old G923. Everyone these days wants to act like these wheel bases are junk but they are all 100 times better than a belt drive wheel. I finally just decided you know what. I can get moza r16 , nice wheel , shifter , their best pedals , and a e brake all for 1600 bucks max. There is no way it’s not going to be far better than my G923. We gotta stop acting like only the best most insane over priced gear is acceptable. The mind set had me thinking I HAD to only go with something insane. But two years ago every single channel was saying moza was the best for the money. Now it’s garbage ? Not saying you’re saying this but most are.
Agreed with this been researching for the last 3 weeks and this was my take away.
A lot of people are on one side of the spectrum and others on the opposite.
This makes upgrading so hard 🤷🏽♂️
Exactly i came from a Thrustmaster TS XW to a Moza 12 night and day difference and i definatly don't need anything else i am not a fanatic :)) all the high end ones also don't feel like a real wheel and drive anyway so..
Ks steering wheel compatibility with r5 ?
Not sure if this indicative to all r12 and ks products... But just got mine and it feels like the QR mounting isn't up to the task with forces of the ks. Not sure if this is just mine. But when getting high forces fast it feels like the QR needs to catch up with the base shaft. Or another way to explain it is its like skipping a bike chain when peddaling and your foot slips but then the gear and chain catch and you get a sudden jolt of resistance. Its much like that. And I'm having a hard time feeling this was worth my money. Only have the ks and r12. So cant test other wheels or bases with them. So sadly may return.
You have something wrong or you don't position the steering wheel correctly...
@@JoseFcoBN yeah, that seems off. mine is as sturdy as it gets, probily could lift my whole rig by holding on my wheel.
I would like to purchase the alpha mini with the ks wheel but as Dan mentioned at 16:32 the shifters dont work when connecting the wheel base to the ks wheel. Would apreaciate a comment if possible that can tell if it is possible to play with this combo thx.
Nothing works, not only the shifters 😅 not sure if there are usb adapter for the KS wheel
@@DanSuzuki ok thanks 👍Do you know by any chance wheels that could be connected with the mini that arent from simmagic?
@@y0x435 SimagicIt has an adapter...
@@y0x435 I don't have any of them but I have read a few topics on Reddit that you can connect simagic base with moza wheel by just adding moza USB hub and connect that hub with wheel and hub with PC by USB cables. And wheel should work as it suppose to. But read about that more 😉
@@ArqSa thanks I read that to buy I'd just buy a la prima wheel base and wheel it's about the same price range anyways
Nice video as always Dan. I with this would have beed out when I bought my Moza base (R9), I could not find any videos or people that where comparing the two in terms of smoothness or detail :) Since it was my first DD I went for the Moza R9, kind of regret it now..
Really hoping someone will talk about the insane oscillations on this wheel when you’re not gripping at full force. If you aren’t totally focused and gripping the wheel in a straight it will just rip out of your hands. I’ve trained all kinds of feedback setting an and I can’t seem to fix it.
This is the case with many direct drives unfortunately and depends a lot on game, car and even car setup. The best by far is the Simucube - anything else will always oscillate for me
So, can you use the Moza KS Steering Wheel on a Simagic base? Are they compatible? You mentioned you couldn't use the paddles though!
The QR fits, but that’s all, none of the buttons or LEDs work 😅
I don't have any of them but I have read a few topics on Reddit that you can connect simagic base with moza wheel by just adding moza USB hub and connect that hub with wheel and hub with PC by USB cables. And wheel should work as it suppose to. But read about that more 😉
For me, once the unit is on its smooth as butter.
All of them are smoother once the power is turned on. That's not the point. It goes to show what kind of motor it is relative to others. In this case, it's just that there are better ones out there for similar money.
I started sim racing not that long ago had a r9 v1 And I can't recommend their software more for people getting into sim racing. They have little information tabs next to every setting slider, explaining what the settings do and how the wheel will react. Made the process so much easier than watching a tutorial video or something on what each setting does. I have since got a simucube pro2, but my r9 will always have a place in my heart for making this hobby so seemless and easy to get into
How much overall difference do you see between the R9 V1 & SimCube Pro 2? I almost went with the SimCube, but I got the R9 V2 and had money leftover for the Moza FSR Wheel. Besides power supply issues, the R9 has been great.
@scottydvintagevideos Well I I can definitely say that there is more detail. I've noticed little things that I haven't before in certain games. And it's so smooth😁. But do I think it's (almost) a $1000 better than my moza r9? Hell no I don't. My r9 was great. But I still don't regret my step up to the simucube ether. It's hard to explain. I'd say it was worth it, but it's hard to justify. It doesn't make me any faster. It's definitely something I wanted but didn't need.
why you not drive with this KS?
Have you run the Wheel base recovery and reset option in the pit house software? Moza should really notify every customer to run this out of the box and after each update. I had a similar problem with my R5 but after running recovery and reset it is now butter smooth now.
I haven't - let me try this!
Hm no, that didn't really change anything. It's interesting that it's actually doing a "cogging force" calibration though :D
@@DanSuzuki You might have to run it a couple of times, it still needs work IMO but, it removes the cogging feeling from the base
You do know right, that when you calibrate the base it fixes the cogging completely
it doesn't! it definitely gets much better, but you can still feel it when comparing to a true servo direct drive.
If you call the R12 weak, what youll call 9,8,5nm? Is R12 weak? I mean it seems quite upper middle range in torque. Next is what 15 and 22?
Pretty sure fanatec's mclaren wheel is still best bang for buck
i was wondering why you have my wheel base on the background the alpha mini , i didnt expect it to be the only problem of the r12
I still dont get why they have a analog joystick that cant do analog signals. Button/Dpad basically changes nothing
The Simagic GT Neo looks beter, but I did not want the hassle as I has a Moza R9....
You think 12nm is weak? I think the 2nm on the Logitech wheels and the 3.9 on the thrustmaster wheels are weak. 12 is plenty enough for me.
If you’re used to 25 then 12 feels weak 😅
@@DanSuzukiI get that, but do you normally play with 25nm of force? Sounds tiring 😅 and I guess even more force than most real cars.
I actually do ... that way you get a nice workout in while gaming 🤣It's most likely not very close to real life indeed.@@marcushillerstrom25
@@DanSuzuki Wow, that is a lot of force. What games and classes do you race the most? My favorites are GT3 in AC and ACC and Rally in Dirt Rally 2.0
I do not like the moza sharpness. They have detail but they do not feel polished. The ffb doesnt feel accuratee with what it tells you.
Man I feel like such a peasant when you say that 12nm is a weak base and I'm over here with the Logitech g920 😂
Ffb low…. 12nm weak lol . I thought r9 was strong 😂.
I can only advise against Moza. I have now had two R9 v2, both overheat after 20-30min and reduce the ffb. Really stable ffb you have only if you set the ffb no higher than 3nm.
The customer service is a disaster. They answered me and ignored me since then. I write and get no response anymore.
I went with alpha mini and gts wheel, no regrets here 😊 just buy alpha and forget mooozaa 😎
r12 running at about 80 - 90% there is no issues of overheating..
Just watching and never buy one of this thing 😂
I still love my diy direct Drive
I wonder when wheel manufactures will grow out of printing button names onto the wheel e.g. Turbo. Makes it look more like a toy.
My thinking: As for the turning, I had to turn my Moza R9 base right away and there it is - the jerking. I have noticed it, but never thought about it, never really registered. We actually tend to buy a base and a steering wheel from one manufacturer, especially when it comes to support under circumstances. Since you introduce base and steering wheel from Moza, a similar comparison (if you already throw that into the balance) with a steering wheel from Simagic would only be fair. There is nothing in the range of 300€ for the steering wheel (when it comes to budget). Maybe I also misunderstood something. Nevertheless, successful video.
I hear where you are coming from but to isolate the comparison on just the base, it has to be tested with the SAME wheel. I think that's the point here.
I have the r9 and the granular cogging effect you describe is completely absent when the unit is on. I wonder if you received a faulty unit.
edit: Also the fact you said it made a noise at some point further leads me to believe your unit was bad (not uncommon with Moza). My R9 has never made a sound.
Can confirm, have exactly same experience with R9
Exactly my own experience. I would say that, perhaps, the calibration was not correctly done.
I remember distinctively that during my first use it was apparent, but after recalibrating it became - as it currently is - silky smooth.
I can confirm once unit is on its smooth
I can't really comment on the R9 ... but it's definitely apparent on the R12. Did you ever compare it to something like a Simucube? I think sometimes it only becomes really noticable when you go from something that is perfectly smooth to something like the R12 or the Fanatec DD bases.
@@DanSuzuki to quote Forrest Gump, "I'm not a smart man, Jennay, but I know what [smooth] is!" I have not compared my R9 to a Simucube, but the granularity you're feeling plus the noise it's making does not sound normal to me. Moza also added new high frequency FFB effects that I'm personally not a fan of, and they did make me think there was something wrong with my unit after the firmware update they came in, so it's quite possible that is what you're feeling, or is in addition to other potential manufacturing issues. I think those effects were a mistake on their part, but Moza said you can remove them by lowering one of the high frequency faders (can't remember exactly which one).
Appreciate the review, by the way! You're making me want a Simucube....
I have the Simagic Alpha mini. It has lots of pros. But there's an elephant in the room about DD bases that no reviewers took the time to dig deep into. Electric motors gets hot and they loose a significant amount of power when such happens. I measured the alpha mini temp after a 40min session at 85% strenght in ACC, while at 100% on Simagic software, at circa 65 celcius.
At such temperature a DD looses tons of torque, tons of speed, tons of power. This means you start the stint at 8nm and finish the race at 6nm (hyphotetical) and no it's not because the front tyres wear out, it's because the base got hot.
I know it gets complicated to measure that BUT this is a huge limitation any base that's not developed with this issue in mind has, or that has enough power to allow for much more conservative settings. Basically the car doesn't feel as it's intended when the base is hot. This might be the reason why Simucube doesn't market anything below 17nm, or why the new Clubsport DDs have been considering this issue in development. Now Fanatec advertises this on the product page. Since you're an engineer or thereabout I hope you can understand the issue. Thanks!
Indeed. Always get hardware with enough 'headroom'.
@@RAKEuutje Or the new Fanatec CS DD/DD+ which have been designed with exactly this in mind.
Absolutely, sustained torque is a thing to look at. My Simucube 2 Pro also gets really really hot after a long stream (I use it at around 80-90%) - I've never noticed any performance drop though. Those servo motors are rated for insanely high temperatures, but manufucturers need to start throttling much earlier because of consumer laws (you don't want anybody to touch a motor that is running at 100C).
It's a good point though, I'll put this on the list for future DD reviews.
@@DanSuzuki90% of 25nm? 😳
Thing is at 10nm peak used at 80% if you loose torque and power when they get hot, you really end up at 6nm. The car is totally different because of that. You start with an Alpha mini and end up with a Thurstmaster T300.
I've had a Alpha mini for years. Really strong. Yes it gets toasty but never experienced FFB reduction ever even after multiple races at 3 hours or longer. It's passively cooled. Have you reached out to your Distributor? Customer support is faultless as well.
Some anecdotes:
I had an end user with oscillation issues on R12. I had oscillation issues on Alpha Mini in the older firmware, but they have changed PID parameters in the last firmware updates and it works much closer to intended now. I was initially disappointed and was thinking I should have got an R9, but that's changed now.
So beware; good chance Moza doesn't know how to make software for FFB wheels. Well, the damping doesn't work as it should so they definitely don't know how to, seeing as damping is very easy to implement.
A WHOPPING 9 euros of SAVINGS!! 😂
Looks like someone is getting nervous: F...TEC.
Tip off the day get a different mic please 😅
Doing a paid Moza review with a GSI shirt lol
It's not paid, that would be illegal 😅
I have not found anyone really happy with the R12 other than moza fans. Everyone seems to hope it is a setting problem, but I have my doubts.
I got a R5 and it has ZERO cogging effect either on or off i think you got a bad unit my dude
They all have it, be happy if you can’t feel it 😊 like I said in the video, it’s not really a dealbreaker - but when you are used to a very smooth motor like the Simucube it’s apparent
They definitely have cogging. You can feel it when you're not in game with the base powered up. Try and turn the wheel by just gently pinching it with your thumb and index finger, and you will feel the resistance change in uniform steps as you rotate. It's not a big deal though, the feeling goes away for me with my R9 as soon as I am in game
$300 is cheap for a wheel!? Whut?
"why would you want to use Android"
Which is when I disliked and stopped watching all of your videos. :p We don't have space in the sim community for elitists. People can use any product they want and shouldn't be judged for it.
I hope you realise that was a joke 😅
It works on Android, and I will still watch your vids Dan, and we can still listen to Billy Strings on a Android or a Iphone lol Great job as always Dan.@@DanSuzuki
Not that serious lol
Moza reliability is questionable at best and support is downright terrible. Janky Chinese brand with zero support. It was a joke. My R9 died a year in and I tried to have it warrantied. Absolute nightmare. They have no processes or SOP. They literally told me to just send it to an address in China. Lo and behold, it's stuck in customs with no way forward. I'm making it a personal goal to share my story. If I can stop someone else from losing money, that's a huge comfort. Do your own research on Moza reddit, discord and other forums.