The Captain Marvel Conundrum: Avengers EMH vs. MCU
Vložit
- čas přidán 25. 05. 2024
- No spoilers for The Marvels here. You're good.
Help support my work: / pillarofgarbage
Or join my channel on CZcams with a Membership: / @pillarofgarbage
Make a (free, easy) difference with TabForTrees: tabfortrees.org/pillarofgarbage
Reddit post: / why_do_you_think_peopl...
Join the Pillar of Garbage Discord server! / discord
Follow me on Twitter! / pillargarbage
Follow me on BlueSky! bsky.app/profile/pillarofgarb...
I'm on Mastodon: mas.to/@PillarOfGarbage
or check out the Pillar of Garbage subreddit at www.reddit.com/r/pillarofgarbage
Second channel: / @quone
#captainmarvel #marvel #themarvels
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
1:46 Carol in Earth's Mightiest Heroes
4:15 Carol in the MCU
7:40 Perspectives
16:12 Brie
18:26 Conclusion
In the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Carol Danvers is Captain Marvel, an ex-U.S. Air Force fighter pilot and member of an elite Kree military unit called Starforce. She was imbued with superhuman strength, energy projection, and flight after exposure to Tesseract energy. In The Marvels, Carol Danvers, aka Captain Marvel, has reclaimed her identity from the tyrannical Kree and taken revenge on the Supreme Intelligence. The Marvels is a 2023 American superhero film based on Marvel Comics featuring the characters Carol Danvers / Captain Marvel, Monica Rambeau, and Kamala Khan / Ms. Marvel. Produced by Marvel Studios and distributed by Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures, it is the sequel to the film Captain Marvel (2019), a continuation of the television miniseries Ms. Marvel (2022), and the 33rd film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU). The film is directed by Nia DaCosta, who co-wrote the screenplay with Megan McDonnell and Elissa Karasik. It stars Brie Larson as Carol Danvers, Teyonah Parris as Monica Rambeau, and Iman Vellani as Kamala Khan, alongside Zawe Ashton, Gary Lewis, Park Seo-joon, Zenobia Shroff, Mohan Kapur, Saagar Shaikh, and Samuel L. Jackson. In the film, Danvers, Rambeau, and Khan team up after they begin swapping places with each other every time they use their powers. - Zábava
The _real_ Marvels, as always, are my wonderful channel supporters on Patreon and CZcams. Join up yourself, we’ll go on our own exciting, interlinked adventure through a magical world of bonus content and perks.
www.patreon.com/pillarofgarbage
@PillarofGarbage
You should check out the Axel Braun parody of Captain Marvel... It's really something 😏
Great Video by the way and I hope you have a Wonderful Day.
So this is a weird inverse to my last take, I hate Carol Danvers, I've hated her since around 2005 and the way she was written for Civil War, and with that being said, I thought the reaction to her in the MCU has been overblown and idiotic. And your video better illustrates that fact that people (mostly men) have been brought to a frothing rage over absolutely nothing when it comes to Carol's movie performance.
@@thezenlu
A lot of characters were written out of character in the Marvel Comics Civil War. Iron Man especially.
@@thezenlu
Marvel Comics were doing their best to ruin a vast majority of their characters in the mid 2000's.
Professor Xavier doing morally questionable things and acting like a villain
Peter and MJ selling their marriage to the literal devil
Everything after House of M
Scarlet Witch's mental breakdown
Iron Man after the Extremis storyline.
Everything involving Maria Hill
The entirety of Brian Michael Bendis writing the Main Marvel Comics.
I half expected this comment to say “the real Marvels, as always, are the friends we made along the way”
I miss Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes animated show and it was a bummer that there was no Season 3 which would have featured Surtur as its main antagonist after being built up as a next major threat in Season 2 through controlling Amora the Enchantress and forging the Twilight Sword for his conquest.
@TheWarmachine375
I recommend checking out the Axel Braun parody version of Carol Danvers.
It's really interesting... To say the least.
If they made a modern revival of EMH they could tie it into an X-Men plotline with Krakoa since it was the twilight blade that cut Okkara into Krakoa and Arakko
i wish we could have gotten more of the EMH Doctor Doom in season 3
It was horrible how they threw it away just for a cash crop when AEMH was already great flow.
I know! This show could’ve rivaled the DCAU. But instead they rode that MCU cash cow and look what happened.
Fight As One opening song of Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes was pure unadulterated awesomeness.
Awesome. I never caught this show so I looked up the theme. thx
Best theme tune EVER!
Our world's about to break
Tormented and attacked
Lost from when we wake
With no way to go back
I'm standing on my own
But now I'm not alone
(Avengers Assemble!)
Always we will fight as one
Till the battle's won
With evil on the run
We never come undone
Idk if it’s necessarily better. But since EMH pre-dates Carol getting the Captain Marvel title, it’s probably the best they could do with her extensive Ms. Marvel backstory pre-2012. And that past ranged from good-ish to Avengers #200. If you know, you know.
Oof. An issue so universally hated that Chris Claremont immediately snatched Carol up wit the X-Men and had her tell the Avengers to f*ck off.
@benwasserman8223
The Brian Reed Ms. Marvel Comics were pretty good.
@@blove88
The Brian Reed Ms. Marvel comics from the 2000s were pretty good.
Minus the tie-ins to Civil War, Secret Invasion and Dark Reign.
That's the brainwashing giving birth to her lover comic who impregnated her story, right? I'd "love" to hear what those guys had to say about that -although "barefoot and pregnate" seems to be their ideal with female characters.
@@Lunictd
Brian Reed Ms. Marvel 2006 Comics were an improvement.
Having a character trait isn't enough, it's HOW that character trait is expressed and dealt with! I can't understate how well the OTHER characters in EMH were written. EMH let these characters clash with their opinions, their humor, and sometimes their powers and abilities. Carol may have had some of the same character traits in both places, but the MCU's writing of her, (and the people around her) are vastly neutered. Carol loses fights in EMH despite her power and has to overcome it. She's powerful, but has to learn to respect the abilities of the others. Any of this in the MCU? Nope... and that's why the character comes across as flat and uninteresting: there's no chemistry being made between her, the audience, and the other characters. All the, "it's the same character traits" arguments tend overlook the most important part: it's not _having_ the trait, but how the trait is _expressed_ through action and dialogue that determines the quality of the writing!
This. This is exactly what I was thinking throughout the whole video the characters traits aren’t the problem but the pore execution
Edit actually rewatching these videos his comparison of EMH’s wasp and the original version is basically the same thing but in reverse old traits either reframed or subtly tweaked to go from annoying to good. MCU just ended up doing the opposite with captain marvel
@@darthrevan4933 agreed, its the bit where she feel men are holding her back stuff that was use in the film. It didn't ring right. Worse was he beating a men cause he was trying to flirt with her and when he say she should smile, her responce was to beat him up and steal his stuff.
Main trainer talk to her about her anger issue and what happen in the end of the film she blast him. In other words they set up a bad trait for her to overcome and she just ignore it.
@@Marverynher stealing the stuff from that man bothering her when she was busy to say she should "smile more" just to be more pleasing to his eyes as if he was someone important was an extremely satisfying scene to watch actually :)
also she doesn't have anger issues, they were telling her to suppress her emotion so they could keep her under control.. that's a very basic part of the plot of the movie
@@manuba_ see this is where we differ. This is like shooting a man for slowing down in the freeway. She took a situation where she could just ignore the guy. she could had told him she not interested and to go away. instead she esculated to the extreme. It be different if he try to pin her to a wall and acted threatening. In the context of the scene was a normal coversation from a guy that couldn't read the room. AT No point the she tell him to buzz off. She just attack him cause she could.
While You claim that keeping her emotion in take was a way to control her? How is that make it better for them. they want her to think before she acts. Beserker make lousy foot soldiers cause you never know what they going to do. Ergo it was good advice not a trait that would benefit them more.
Is being nice and gushing towards men have to be a basic trait that all women in fiction should have? Because it feels like it's becoming more of a crutch to me. Maybe if she explains why she has an attitude towards them, we may understand. Not every woman has great experience with men, or just stay quiet about if they didn't. I know it sucks of being accused of things you didn't do.
it was so bizarre watching people make hating brie larson a part of their personality
I know, right?! It's so bizarre and dare I say cringe.
It's become a part of the grifter personality because it is part of their livelihood as well.
Rage farming.
Rachel Ziegler seems to be next… 🤦♀️
B-B-But she said not all movies are made for old white men years ago!
@@mhawang8204she does say some stupid things...
For the movies, the amnesia plot really wrecked the opportunity to really infuse great characterization and humanization. Idk ive always felt that and that the movie was too “small” in a way. She should have been helping people across the galaxy, and pulled back to earth do to skrulls or something else. Now u have the guilt of leaving earth and her friends but also u understand the massive responsibilities she has inherited from her power sets. They’re were so many ways to do it and even kee the kree angle that they helped her with her powers and ronan and such kinda see her as some sort of demigod idk.
Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
Now that's a show I haven't heard in a long time.
Same here
Over a decade. I miss that show. Perhaps the best avenger show that was very under appreciated
For me the 2 main problems that have zero to do with Bree Larsen are 1. She was introduced SOOOO late that it left very little room for Avengers interactions and 2. Her power levels were just implemented with such an INSANELY high level it left so little room for discovery, upgrading or growth. If Feige was directing the ship with final say then ultimately it falls on him for the poor planning. I dont think there is any way fix her reputation in the reactionary nerd online circles. Websites have made an entire news ecosystem in demonizing and exaggerating Bree's role in the MCU for click and income and they arent giving that up based on better stories for her.
I never get the overpower criticism. The character can grow without their power changing. The story can be about why and how they use their power, or even how to hold back their power. Heck, it can just be about how they interact with other characters, you know, human stuff, not superhero stuff. Maybe I’m in the minority, but these aspects are more interesting than the stats like in a video game. Did Black Widow or Starlord gain new powers? People still care about them, right?
All the avengers have boring fucking interactions
@@mhawang8204a character being overpowered creates so many writing problems. How is it possible for the villain to even stand a chance when marvel or any overpowered can just one shot them whenever they want? Why even team up with other people? You can handle even yourself, you're all powerful
@@mhawang8204
Superman is overpowered, but his power isn't really the point of the story.
Clark is a good man, who happens to have the power of a god.
It's the story of that man that is interesting.
@@theanimerapper6351
"Why even team up with other people?"
Because sometimes power, itself, isn't enough to overcome an antagonist, therefore may require a team of various capabilities that accommodate the environment they exist in...that may have intellectual challenges, "magic", "sorcery", "witches", "fairies", "demons", every "god" invented by humans, "werewolves", "vampires", "monsters", "Nexus beings", etc.
But, hey, are you saying "why have Superman?"?
Is this why DC struggles to get it's ass off the ground? There is an issue with its mythology and how it translates to live action, especially when they pander to two contrasting characters, like Batman and Superman(got to drive home the capitalism and 'Murika propaganda).
"Overpowered" is such a redundant concept. Where is the boundary or standard for being "OP"?
The mythology of both DC and Marvel, have characters that scale all the way to a meta state.
From street level "human" standard physics to above multiversal level fantasy.
For decades, characters with nigh omnipotent abilities have been a thing.
So, why is some sort of boundary being fabricated when more women, especially powerful or has a personality trait that displays (insert average male behavior), are ALLOWED into the genre?
It's why you vaguely suggest "creates so many writing problems".......unless they're a child prodigy, super alien fueled by local source of power since birth, massively wealthy with toys used to instill fear in those "villains", or already labelled as a "god"...oh and a man.
Because the comic industry was built to pander to a target demographic of straight white adolescent boys and young men, maintained beyond the Civil Rights Act, even utilizing token characters framed in an Americanized cishet white male pandering....like the ENTIRE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.
But when women start displaying powers a bit too far beyond the male ego's comfort level, then we have to start talking about the "writing problems".
Weird...
Captain Marvel spent most of the movie believing that the inhibitor chip was actually giving her those powers, so she had no reason to take it off until she learned the truth.
I didn’t particularly like the first Captain Marvel movie (I think it would have been better if the audience could know the truth whole Carol was an amnesiac, but I digress). When the hate for Larson started pouring in, I didn’t think much of it at first; sure, other people didn’t like the movie… but then it kept going, and to this day she is a punching bag on youtube. At this point it’s not movie criticism, it’s personal hatred for an actress. I guess I need to accept that it was never movie criticism and has always been about Brie Larson the person
The two are related.
The movie was mediocre, and The Marvels looks like it's going to be a colossal failure. Brie has said things in the past which, like Rachel Zegler (although far less so) suggest her contempt for the fans of the comics.
But given that the modern comics writers also despise comics fans, that's about par for the course.
@@freman007 So, just because she's not really liking the comic fans (she doesn't have to btw, she's a hired talent, loving a certain fandom is not in the job's description) they decided to give her x1000 more hate as some sort of revenge? Is that really a healthy response to someone not liking the group you identify yourself with? Do they have nothing in their lives except for this obsession over comics and geek culture? It's so depressing that even I'm ashamed to associate myself with comic fans because of people like that. I have friends who are comic fans, but they're not as pathetic and have better things to do with their time.
@@freman007Comic fans are hypocritical idiots that move the goalposts as what they consider to be canon or comic book accuracy as there are hundreds of writers who constantly change however many versions of a character and their backstories are.
Most of them excuse shitty plots with little realism anyways (it's FICTION for crying out loud) just to say stupid noises on every action page. So how the MCU failed comic fans I have no clue. They disrespect themselves by stanning boring or mostly mediocre stories like for example. The Phoenix Force - zero explanation as to how it originated, it randomly went after Jean, just like how the F4 EXACTLY GOT THEIR POWERS. Nevermind that coincidence, then some days she can control an all-powerful force of cosmic destruction and recreation, other days she CAN'T. Lastly, she decides to kill herself when fundamentally she can't ever die.
This is thought to be the best X-Men storyline. Which made even less sense in TAS and even worse done to death terribly 3 times in live action.
But again, actors and actresses need to give a shit about gatekeeping neckbeard losers opinions on comic book portrayals, because? Writer convenience?
@@freman007 Modern comic writers love comic fans, actually. You & your beloved hatemongers are not actually comic fans, however. Y'all are a bunch of extremely contemptible, media illiterate whiners crying about a medium that, outside of the couple decades that conservatives managed to successfully censor the shit out of it, has always been political, and more often than not, left of center (by US standards at least). So I guess if the repugnant scum you've come here representing don't like being treated with utter contempt, then you should perhaps consider reflecting on your failings and resolve to become less contemptible.
@@freman007 What things has she said that "suggest her contempt for fans of the comics"?
The Larson Effect: A phenomenon not too dissimilar to a self-fulfilling prophecy where the vitriolic response to a person's initial point about systemic sociopolitical issues only ends up proving and reinforcing the point being made.
With all the dog-pilling of videos by mostly of straight white bois repeating the same exact thing over and over again, Brie Larson's point of critics needing more diversity REALLY drives it home doesn't it?
Wait, have any of them actually engaged with her argument and not just "wah she hates white men 😭😭😭"???
What, that people who have time to do something as trivial as reviewing movies are frequently white and male, because on the whole that's the sort of thing white men prefer to do?
Man, I am totally stealing this.
that's the thing with feminism in general - the loudest enemies are coincidentally the dumbest ones, who also unwittingly justify it by their presence in the first place. Ironic, they wanted to prove it's pointless, and by accident making it clear that it's useful.
I LOVED Carol in EMH! I don't hate Brie Larson's portrayal, or either movie. But it never hit the same for me and I didn't really know why
Personally? I don't hate Brie Larson, but...even if Captain Marvel was going to be cast with someone...implausibly young...something tells me that Saorise Ronan probably would have worked better. I would have preferred Charlize, but whatever at this point.
People never got the chance to discover who the character was in the films. They were told who she was and everything was wrong with her before seeing her. Then berated with a stream of "think pieces" on why the character could never work.
Even people who question the legitimacy of those critics can't help but second guess the character and any enjoyment they experience. I can't say the political campaign against the character hasn't been effective.
Rare is the commentator who can mention the character without stating their definitive view on the film or the character. When it's a group, each member is often asked to give their opinion about the film. "It wasn't the best MCU film." Yeah, that's also most of the MCU films. "Not the best one." But people only feel pressured to say it about _Captain Marvel._
The campaign worked.
EMH Carol definitely feels like a take that could have had some growth and real earned upgrades if the show got a third season. I really wish it did.
I also think that both Captain and Iron man should of had more interactions with Captain Marvel so then eventually when Captain America or Iron Man can't be there someone like her can be a co-op Captain or be a powerful character like thor at infinity war or Hulk but the bad timing has done the character so badly.
Brie as a person has been acting since a kid so it has been difficult for her to get all of her acting there, but she's a great actress it's also a good point that having her constructed in a wall of mcu copy paste model it makes it difficult I honestly think the second movie would have been the starter for her character not her solo film, since she works better as an assembly or a combo character for a movie/show
She should’ve been revealed when the second group of heroes were introduced like Ant-Man and Spider-Man after the 2nd avengers film. She could’ve then had more interactions with the avengers or maybe even the guardians. Have her join sword but she’s disconnected from everybody and everything and there’s a lack of interactions with anyone.
@@InevitableOption-ic2vx sad, they should’ve made that happen because we were introduced to CM way too late. Should’ve came out in at least 2016.
Do more videos defending female characters that have been crapped on for years, these last 2 have been excellent!
Yes pleaseeeee, he's already made videos on Miles Morales so some on women who get that same treatment would be so nice. I think that Ironheart, Mighty Thor, and Ms. Marvel all deserve this (though Ms. Marvel got very little hate in her original run it's mostly been the MCU version that gets hate)
X2
Last 2?
What is the one before the amber video ?
@@thanos3347haha sorry I meant this one and the amber one 😅
@@matthewreed8036 Makes sense.
Actually reading your original comment it seems I misinterpreted it.
Sorry.
There is an element in characters like Thor and Scarlet Witch, and it is “earning your powers”. I normally classify this as having to pay a price for being a superhero. Both Thor and Scarlet Witch had character development and neither of them started out powerful. They both had fleshed out stories of how they became powerful. Captain Marvel, on the other hand, came to the MCU as already powerful.
Wanda Maximoff is a very complicated character that actually has depth. She is flawed and the movies show us her flaws, and invite us to judge her for her actions. She is indecisive, emotional, unprofessional, and a little more needy. When Wanda did cause harm she just doesn’t get away with it. We do get to see the consequences of her failings, and we see her have to deal with those failings. We can judge her for how she learns from her mistakes as well as for her successes. Her powers develop and she does, and in every movie she’s in, there is a new aspect of her magic. Wanda has had one of the best developments in the MCU. She went from meek and emo teenager to incredibly powerful witch who nearly killed Thanos. Also, Wanda has suffered a lot and struggled through her time in the MCU: she shows constantly that she’s willing to sacrifice nearly anything, including her own freedom, on behalf of others. Her only non-negotiables were her brother and the Vision, and losing them meant losing what mattered most to her. They are the only thing she felt she couldn’t live without, and they were both taken. Without her brother, Vision was the only person she was really living for; once Thanos took him, she felt she had lost everything.
Thor is born as a God, but he still had to learn vital lessons in order to properly use his power: He started out very arrogant, full of himself, and short-sighted, acting on impulse or however he felt justified, and for that he was stripped of Mjolnir (the conduit of his power) and banished on earth, and he had to learn how to become worthy of it again. Then, after learning and experiencing love and powerlessness from humans, he walked up to the Destroyer at the risk of his life in humility, offering his life to Loki to spare the people of that small town. He could have just walked away and let someone else handle it and his life would have been spared. And in fact he died so that people could be saved. Thanks to this he earned back power Mjolnir and the title of God Of Thunder. Howere, he paid a dear price for being Thor. By losing his family, his home, his powers at one point & being powerless to stop it all despite his power. He’s definitely earned his place in the world.
The problem with Captain Marvel is that there hasn’t been a price for her to pay. She just appeared when Infinity War had already happened, and with Kevin Fieg announced she was “the most powerful Avenger ” when, unlike Thor and Scarlet Witch, she hasn't been given the opportunity to Earn her power. She has no character arc at all. She’s just super powerful. She suffers no major losses in her life other than a bout of amnesia. The big moment in her movie was overcoming her inhibitor and getting super powerful. She didn't have to overcome some flaw, or learn some lesson. She just had to want to be more powerful. You might point to her being kidnapped by the Kree, but that’s a Carol Danvers issue. She was clearly fully onboard with what they were doing until she realized what they did. But even then, there’s no sacrifice, no moral conundrum, no real uncomfortable decision that she has to make. She got powers and that’s that.
Captain Marvel is just written as a female empowerment character without any single flaw and when you have characters that can feasibly just do everything on their own, you turn them into plot devices. There needs to be a price for it. Uncle Ben’s saying is a bit corny, but it resonates & applies to every one of these superheroes.
Carol Danvers in the earlier comics was a team player. Sadly she had a lot of humbling moments in her comics run, but like Rocky she gets back up after every fight. The Kelly Sue Deconnick version of Carol Plays by her own rules, and has no limitations. She can do whatever she wants. That's the problem. Superman is loved because in his heart he is just a simple boy from Kansas, though he has these God like powers. The more powerful they are the more humbling humanity we want to see from these characters.
That's the easiest mistake people make when characters get THAT powerful. When you have a "Superman" you just can't write them like Zod and try to make us pretend that's a hero. What makes Superman super is that he enjoys doing what he can eventhough he cannot save everybody.
EHM is heavily slept on.
I had totally forgotten who voices Carol in EMH, so I was caught off guard when I heard Commander Shepard!
jennifer hale is my favorite voice actress of all time!
@@AndreNitroX she's awesome!
@@jedisalamander2457 yes she is also the voice of every one of my animated women crushes
Until recently, I hadn’t actually seen the speech Brie Larson gave that led to thousands of sweaty CZcams rants. And my god, is it even more pathetic now. It’s not inflammatory at all, she stated basic facts about demographics. You can’t even misinterpret what she said as “white men are bad.” Unbelievable
She even did the not all men thing three times in that speech
Sure, and from what we've seen it's the white male demographics that have kept these comic book movies alive. They're certainly not selling to the supposed female/diverse audience that she apparently made A Stitch in Time for.
Even The Marvels appears to have had about a 68% male audience attendance.
Rejecting the audience that makes you money, in search of an audience that doesn't exist, is why Disney is on the rocks now.
@@freman007 she didn't reject them just because she wants more voices at the table and her whole thing was about critics not the audience
@@freman007that white males don't give a fuck about or just say outright "but what about MY voice?"😂😂😂😂😂 after 70 years plus as protagonists and antagonists, get a reality check. That didn't stop a majority White male fanbase still watching everything after Endgame, whether they liked it or not. Conservative fanboys just like fake outrage as their validation cause they literally have nothing else...but living vicariously through another man's artwork and action words on a colored page.
@@freman007Yesh you missed what the comment you’re replying to said. That Larson didn’t say any of the things you just mentioned.
5:56 It says a lot about the impact of a unique character when you can identify many core similarities without too many caveats. It also highlights Garbage’s skill as a critic; he doesn’t lead with bias like many others do. He analyzes and compares objectively, before moving onto perceptions and subjective lenses. Thank you so much for putting in the work! You’ve earned my subscription ❤
6:58 😂 Beautiful series; going to see your Amber review after watching 2X2
And now I’m going to binge on your MCU, Community, and other content. I doom scrolled all the way down to the Loki Season 1 finale review. You’re one of my favorites now ❤️
EMH is based on the original Carol that was fleshed out for years, with a long back story that crossed over multiple popular characters from which she learned and is thankful.
MCU Carol is just a dumbed down version that is a TOTALLY SELF-MADE girl boss from the defaced "all new all Marvel" who is bored of everyone holding her natural talent back.
Yeah of course EMH Carol Danvers is better. She had character development, she was humble, she was unsure of herself and she overcame it. She had an arc. It was one of the best animated shows of all time and THE most faithful depiction of the characters as they appeared in the comics.
Not only that but as an ensemble tv shows, that allowed her to have a presence at least each week, so we know more about her with each passing episode while developping other characters.
Meanwhile, the last time we saw Carol in the MCU before The Marvels was in Avengers Endgame, which was four years ago.
We never saw what she did during those four years so there is no connection with her the same way the EMH version.
And that's on Kevin Feige for failing the character and the lack of connection with her.
Say what you want about the DCEU but it did make wonders, pun partially intended, for Wonder Woman and why we should care about her by the end.
@@DrZuluGamingnot with that garbage Wonder Woman sequel about nothing. So now both franchises have bad sequels for their strongest, cosmic heroines.
@@murk4552The real reason WW even worked it was just Captain America in WW1. It really didn't do more than what it needed to be. What they should have done is kept copying Capt America movies for WW.
As someone who was an adult already familiar with and reading comics when Earths Mightiest Heroes came out, it's super obvious to me that when people say this it's because Earth's Mightiest Hero was their first introduction to Carol when they were kids and there's been a cottage industry built around hating Brie Larson they've been exposed to growing up tainting their perception because otherwise the two interpretations are so similar in characterization I can't even begin to figure out what minute difference people claim to be picking up on that makes the MCU version such a "betrayal."
Then you truly don't know characters at all.
-EMH Carol is far more expressive (which is sad considering that a live-action portrayal should have more realistuc emotions than an animated one, but go figure), she's more fun, humble, sociable, eager to prove herself, maybe a little naïve (due to fully trusting Mar-Vell), sometimes demonstrates conflicts of interest, she still needs her team, isn't falsely marketed as the most powerful out of the blue, and isn't shoehorned into the story
-MCU Carol barely has any personality to speak of other than annoyed, bored, and smug, is retconned into existance (effectively ruining the tenuous continuity at that point), has no character arc, and is said to be the most powerful character because f*ck storytelling
@@ldcg106 "isn't falsely marketed as the most powerful out of the blue" Careful, your real agenda is showing. 😂
@@TheHorrorGuru Teapot, meet kettle
@@ldcg106 Glad you admit it then.
@@TheHorrorGuru Happier yet that you confessed.
Yes she was better in emh. When the captain marvel film was announced i was hyped, because i knew her fom emh. Then i watched the movie, and was disappointed. Boring plot, boring character writing, and not very well acted (for my taste).
They might have the same xharacteristics, but they feel different. Best i can give is this: emh is defined by what she is, mcu is defined by what she is not. The emh version was allowed to be a character in the show, mcu felt too much like they wanted to show she was not a man but doing a mans job. That is nice and all, but it does the character dirty. Yes, you can tell stories like that but a) don't be surpised if some don't like it, and b) make it giod regardless, din't just shove it in or worse, make every one of the groupe you don't like buffoons. We root for characters to win against logical, not comical adversity (unless it is a comedy). But yeah, captain marvel never needed to be compared to others to stand out, be strong and competent. Her actions as a character already showed that, her interactions with other people showed that. And noone ever doubted her powers, but maybe doubted her due to her alligences, world view and the actions those things created. No conflict that felt artificial. Emh is hypercompetent and shown to be, but she still comes into believable conflicts and has to navigate them with her interlect.
That is my opinion, but hey, noone will attack me over it on the internet i'm sure
Well the writing for EMH is miles better than the MCU recently, especially since CapMarv arrived (though it was starting to slide before then). Also, MCUMarv isn't really all that friendly with other people, at least in her appearances up until the Marvs (haven't seen enough of that to tell if this has improved.) EMHMarv genuinely likes other people and likes being around them, not merely a select friend or two. This plays off her military/militant attitude: she may be Ms in the show, but she's still a military officer and she does act like one, whereas MCUMarv rarely acts like any military officer I've ever seen on screen, read about, or met in real life. We're told by the movie about 3/4 through that MCUMarv is the bestest person to be a friend of ever, but we practically never see her being that way, even with her best friend who has been telling her this. (Arguably this could be due to the brainwashing messing with her mind which would be very understandable, but the plot doesn't seem to go there: it just tells us she is definitely this way and that's all, like we're expected to believe it. It was one of the few times I lol'd out loud watching the film, and not in a good way.)
As far as the groups she joins, EMHMarv joined the military because of her core values of service, protection and respect for law, not to show other people she could do things they said she couldn't. MCUMarv didn't really join the Kree, she was brainwashed into it and breaks free of that eventually, having problems interacting with them except for her teacher (and even kind of resenting him sometimes, for good reason as the plot turns out). She doesn't really join the Avengers, she turns up when Fury summons her, and then does things with them for a little before going off to do her own thing, only to (understandably) deus ex machina somewhat at the end. As noted, she's a cog in their project -- but nothing more. She doesn't show any admiration or appreciation for them. If anything, they're written to admire her instead, in order to get the audience to accept her. (Admittedly this is part of her meta-plot situation, having been stapled into the series ad hoc.) Since then she has done very little, and indeed signally failed to do literally anything she had finished her solo movie intending to do -- which the writers conveniently ignore in order to blame someone else for her (actually unexplained) failures! (The Marvels film may somewhat explain this, or hint at an explanation, or talk about it in retrospect as happening between the plots -- I'm not sure yet from the snippets I've seen.)
Note: she has plenty of opportunity even in her small amount of time react to half the life in the entire universe being snapped, but she doesn't. This is consonant with her characterization in her solo film -- which could be explained, again, as damage from having to deal with years of brainwashed gaslighting, but also happens to be consonant with her characterization BEFORE she gets kidnapped by the Kree. She doesn't join the military because she cares about other people, or even for ideals, or even to improve herself really: she joins to spite other people, and glories in being able to show them she could do it after all. That _could_ still be an interesting characterization, if sociopathic perhaps; there are several ways that setup could be taken by competent writers. But her character didn't get that. (Leading back to the beginning comparison in a topical chiasm woo! {g} )
A lot of the issues with Captain Marvel in the movies are just results of problems with the MCU, but also in general people have soured on Carol in recent times.
More personal hang ups people have with Brie Larson herself is just further compounding that into a louder more toxic mob mentality surrounding any actual critiques of the character.
I think Civil War II soured a lot of people on the character, and that carries over to Brie's portrayal, through no fault of her own.
There's nobody as toxic as a Disney defender.
@@freman007 Yeah!
It's not like actual Nazis are anti-Disney or anything.
not really - carol's own story and marketing was the first big red flag with "girl power" "HER - O" messaging and "any one that doesn't like it is toxic and anti women" Brie compounded that with virtue signaling at a award show
then the MCU lies of "she's important for endgame" literally not being true and easily replaced with a hulk rematch we were robbed of
doesn't help end game and the A Force cringe scene cause "girl power" means they have random solidarity with each other
and the end result is a character rushed to her final self in the comics with no build up and nowhere to go
@@marcusclark1339 Funny how her biggest detractors are 'anti-woke' misogynists who whine and complain when women, minorities or gay people get positive representation.
Just admit you hate women, then shut up and sit down.
Being on the side of openly racist people isn't a win, microboy.
I feel both versions suffer from underdevelopment
EMH has a nice arc showing her going from loyal by the book agent of SWORD to realize the flaws in her organization and join the Avengers, but never develops futher due to the series cancellation. Plus I don't buy her relationship with Mar-Vell nor his potrayal in the series.
MCU has good idea of her being a kree soldier who slowly discover her lost memories and rebels against the Supreme Intelligence but we don't see much focus on her life before the accident and Carol personallity doesn't change from the flashbacks to the present and in Marvels, without giving any spoiler, her arc suffers from fast pacing, not giving the impact it should have.
EMH Carol had more of a personality that The MCU wants to emulate but missed the point. Focusing on making her more powerful than everyone just because while completely forgetting to give her a likable protagonist.
@@lucariopokemon13 Their powers are the same and both are likable in their own way, with EMH being a bit more inexperient and having a respect for the avengers as mentors and family, while MCU Carol is more cocky and has more experience due to her time in space.
I'm gonna see it with no expectations because I'm tired of the whiny ass MSheU haters. Especially those who want this movie to suck and bomb at the box office just so they can taunt Marvel and more importantly, Brie Larson, like five year olds more than they already do. I know how hypocritical I sound considering I wanted The Flash movie to bomb because I didn't want WB to keep that POS even after they reboot the DCEU. But that's the difference. Brie Larson hasn't done anything wrong. Her words were taken out of context and seems to have an awkward personality and I can understand how that can rub people the wrong way. I don't have the mental capacity to explain it further and would rather recommend watching the second part of CinemaWins' Captain Marvel video as he gives the movie fair criticism while also examining why people hate her so much.
🗣️🗣️
Those same haters made it hard for me to enjoy She Hulk. I loved her comics and was excited for a show. It wasn't spectacular but it's not the eldritch horror these people see it as. Found it a bit annoying that Jen didn't like being She Hulk, as it's the opposite in the source material, and some of jokes tried way too hard. Otherwise it was an alright watch.
@@shinyocelot04archive I was fine with them playing around with how Jen felt about being She-Hulk since it sort of goes back and forth. But yeah, I would like any future seasons/appearances to basically have her 100% hulked out unless prevented from doing so.
And to OP, yeah. Brie didn't even say it that awkwardly. It's just a fact that the voices that are promoted to be "the critics" is a very specific niche. Which is also why it's baffling to full on comedy that every time one of THEIR anticipated movies gets a shit critic's score they will immediately launch into tirades about the elitist critics. Like... wanna grab and say "do you not get you are making the exact same argument as Brie?"
Yeah after Eternals I've decided to just watch these on my own on specific times. I liked what Eternals was trying to do, everybody aimlessly hated on it
@@solid4340 that was a very instructive case in that Marvel had started getting some heat for the formulaic plots and characters, so Eternals very specifically tried doing something DIFFERENT, and then everyone gave it shit for not being a "superhero movie". It's not perfect by any means, but it was doing some cool stuff!
When they officially changed carol's moniker in the comics(and went on to eventually ruin her charaterization), it was just a formality really. long before that, she was clearly the most recognizable and prominent charater with the "marvel" title.
Functionally, Yostverse Carol IS Captain Marvel in everything but name. And she is my favorite iteration of the character.
yeah that the thing, she not that much different from the "modern" comic book counterpart. And she wasn't well like as a comic book character once they start to make her for "modern audience". Not that was a real popular character to start with as they had remove her from earth a couple of times cause she lack major appeal.
Yost’s season 3 episode descriptions call her Captain Marvel, so it was either going to be an organic change that was always planned or it was probably going to change for synergy.
I've never understood the hate for Captain Marvel/Bree Larson. I really enjoyed the first Captain Marvel movie, I thought it was a lot of fun. I feel like a lot of the reasons that people cite for why Carol is unlikable are character traits that she shares with early Tony Stark. But no one had a problem with him...
it was bad - the marketing was abysmal with "her o" as if it was doing something newfound and crazy cause media loves patting itself on the back for things it didn't do
also on mother's day too i believe cause they tried so hard to make it a high fem movie
the false advertisement of it being important for end game, which itself had the cringe A force scene
the second was brie and terrible award show virtue signaling, then worse as her character was abysmal, then the unicorn movie (saw it , just was mid)
but the character was just bad, had nothing going for her, shoved to her final form with no arc to go on after cause they rushed to get to kamala khan and it shows and now marvels has no idea what their characterization is
@@marcusclark1339 Okay. I don't care about the marketing or the advertising. I generally don't pay any attention to anything like for basically anything. For me I just watched a fun superhero movie with a badass woman kicking ass to fun music and having a good time doing it. I feel like she had a good arc fully contained within the movie reconciling her past and who she was and is with who she wanted to be now in the present. As for her having "no arc to go on after", I guess I don't see what you mean by that.
Carol and early Tony are both boastful and arrogant, yes, but there's a difference. At a party, Carol would go around telling other guests she could beat them. Meanwhile, all the guests know Tony Stark as the host.
There's also his doucheyness is portrayed as a negative trait. Hers is portrayed as positive.
I understand the hate for Larsen and Captain Marvel, though I generally don’t agree with it.
Keep in mind though. EMH was created before Marvel turned Carol Danvers into the Poster girl for all this feminazi nonsense. There is a huge difference between the character pre 2013(when she was still Ms. Marvel) and post 2013(when she officially took the title of Captain Marvel)
bro really wrote 'feminazi' seriously
@@PillarofGarbage Would you rather I write angry man hating man hating feminist made to look superior to any and all male characters to the point t where she comes off as an arrogant, victimhood claiming, total hypocrite and a complete villain, that marvel used to shamelessly plug Hyper third feminist propaganda with? Sure why not?
@@youtubeistryingtocensormeJust proving more of your weird insecurity against women not bowing to all men, yeah. Have you never heard of a cocky, arrogant and quippy protagonist before? Because there’s this series called the mcu that stars Iron Man
@@youtubeistryingtocensormeman the reply 💯😂
@@thomasjohnson1885 more like my hatred for arrogant, narcissistic, misandrist who want to use men for their money and bring nothing to the table except for baggage and toxic attitude.
I hope you get your silver plaque lol. I watched Captain Marvel again a few weeks ago and I do think theres a problem with Carol being over powered and having her confident,self assured personality. I think they wanted to maintain to emulate the Avengerss EMH Carol but I don't think it worked within the context of her memory loss and her not knowing who she is or how they tried to construct the minipulative relationship between her and her mentor. In my opinion they should have focussed on one of the two, if she was struggling with who she was they could tie it to her power and maybe it fails her at inopportune moments etc and once she gains her memories back, her powers are finally unleashed, in this way she can keep her Tony Stark snark (which I enjoy) and still be vulnerable and not too over powered too soon.
You perfectly worded what I wanted to say.
The issue I have with mcu version is that Carol is full of herself not in a cocky way, but in an unappreciative, "get out of my way while I do everything" kind of way. It's like her power is her entire character, where as the emh version was always sort of humble at the idea of needing help or assistance with the avengers. This is on full display in endgame where she states she's going to kill Thanos, in her mind on her own. I get that she isn't familiar with everyone in the room, but she at least knows they are a remarkable group of people more than capable of assisting. It's also why her fight with Thanos being so one sided in her favor just leaves a bad taste in a lot of viewers mindsets. We get it, she's powerful and could stop Thanos by herself, as could scarlet witch, Thor, Dr. Strange, and a few other present. But they go to such lengths so showcase just how much more powerful she is than the main villain of 10 years of films for no reason.
Let me declare my ‘credentials’ up front to avoid being accused of bias. I’m a black African Caribbean woman of a certain age, my politics is left leaning and growing up I only ever read DC comics, never bought or read a Marvel comic in my life. And never watched EMH. So I knew nothing of captain Marvel before the first MCU movie.
When I saw the trailer for Captain Marvel I had ‘a bad feeling’. Something just wasn’t coming across that made me want to watch it. But I went to see it nonetheless.
Here’s the problem with captain marvel. Look at the introduction of Stephen Strange and Tony Stark. Both smug arrogant individuals but over the course of their films they were humbled and learnt important lessons.
Captain Marvel from the moment she’s introduced to us is arrogant and smug. At no point is she brought to a low point where she needs to regroup. She’s smug and arrogant at the beginning and only more smug and arrogant at the end.
She doesn’t make for a likeable character therefore, not someone I feel any connection to or want to root her.
I don’t like Tony Stark but I can respect him and root for him. Equally Dr Strange I grew to really like (although the Multiverse film spoiled his character somewhat).
I can’t conjure up anything for captain marvel because she doesn’t come across with any kind of human-ness (sorry I know that’s not a word). It makes it hard to empathise, sympathise or connect with her. Her arrogance and smugness are a real turn off.
And just to avoid accusations of being anti strong women, I totally love Black Widow and Maria Hill.
Honestly, I like both versions of Carol Danvers. My least favorite is a version not mentioned in this video, the one from Future Avengers. They rewrote her character entirely to be a perfect wife and mother type who's reduced to babysitting the children with no mention of her time in the air force, her time in SWORD, or even how she got her powers. She didn't keep the essence of what made her Carol, something both the EMH and the MCU were able to do. As you pointed out, they both had the same powers, the same personality and the same backgrounds (well, similar backgrounds). The only thing that makes them different is the situations they find themselves in. On the other hand, the Future Avengers Carol is Carol in name only with nothing that makes her who she is.
Having already seen the Marvels, I feel like the outrage machine is going to be especially comedic in their attempts to trash this movie.
And yeah, Brie is fantastic, and she does a fantastic job with the character. Love the De Connick era books, and she captures that dorky, go getter attitude well. She's strong where she's strong, but also incredibly vulnerable in other places, and that shows.
Brie does a great job in other stuff too. Unicorn Store, where she stars with Samuel L Jackson, is a fun Netflix comedy.
To me the difference is that emh carol has a humble likable quality where as mcu carol comes across as a bit arrogant and kind of full of herself. I don't have a problem with mcu marvel but I love emh marvel.
EMH Carol or MCU Carol?
Miguel: "Both."
Tulio: "Both is good."
Since Nintendo has just announced a live-action Zelda movie, there might be a chance for a Metroid movie in the future. Just writing this because after seeing the Marvels, I still want to see Brie Larson as Samus Aran. Please Nintendo, make it happen!
I don't feel she'd respect the character of samus or video games for that matter. She barely respects the MCU as it is.
@@egg8404 Sure buddy. I don't know that I would want her for a live action Samus (Or a live action Metroid to begin with) but you're spouting nonsense.
@@mechanomics2649 I'm not spouting nonsense. I just doubt she'd have an interest in the franchise considering that they don't seem like the type of person to care for that type of gaming. I could be wrong but she definitely doesn't entrust me any confidence she'd pull it off.
No. Fuck no. Stay away
Having watched The Marvels I think they did an amazing job at making Carol less out there, cocky, unrelatable and “perfect”. The movie’s a great time, lots of fun, but also manages to make all characters work well together.
this film was just light fun it has it's problems but it didn't hate it as much as everyone else is saying it was terrible but the same can be said about Thor the Dark World and Iron Man 2 really enjoyed Carol, Monica and Kamala much more than before Kamala was probably a highlight now they just need to work on Cassie
@@danielhindson1840 oh no it was much better than thor 2 😂
I have been waiting to see a discussion on this character for so long
I remember seeing her and liking her design on EMH but remember nothing on her personality or characterization.
The loudest voices in this fandom are obsessed with their comic book films being "for adults." And they find the best rendition of those stories in children's cartoons. I've heard this for years from both MCU and DCEU fans. It's gotten to the point that they hate everything that doesn't fit into their shifting definition of _adult,_ which removes any childlike joy and fun from the genre. This need for "adult content" for people who don't want content for adults is becoming exhausting.
No, they're obsessed with them being "comic book movies" which is to say, movies that depict some of the depth and character we see in the comic books.
Snyder fans are obsessed with making things "dark and gritty" but Snyder has probably only ever read a handful of comic books in his life.
But keep making up arguments that nobody is making.
@@freman007 Comics allow much more diversity of everything than "The Fans" will accept in films and TV. A lot of what "The Fans" have been bitching about for years comes from the comics. The stuff people complained about in _The Marvels_ before it was released, the musical scenes, the kittens, etc., were all in the comics. The general tone isn't outside the DeConnick era of Captain Marvel. But if it gets depicted in films, it's the wrong tone. Everything must be SUPER CEREAL for the _"Adults."_
@@1monki You're missing your own point trying to attack people valid points. You'r ignoring when there was some dark moments they had it brushed away by having bad jokes. verybody was acting like Spider-Man or even Deadpool when they all should have had their own comedic timing. You can't be like th fans wanted everything "super cereal" you could see in the MCU downplay very serious subject manner for a joke. All those people wanted is for them to play the moment straighter and not treat it like a sitcom. It's why it really worked in Wandavision until it didn't.
@@ExeErdna The commentor's demand was that films and shows represent the verity and diversity in the comics. Yes, Miller's Dark Knight and Daredevil are comic narratives. My point is that She-Hulk's comedic fourth wall-breaking and Ms. Marvel's indearing family dynamics are also part of this genre. And they're both pretty silly at times. I get that people like Sony's _Logan_ and the Netflix Daredevil. And I think the MCU needs space to tell those stories. Marvel should give people the R-rated Daredevil they want. But that type of content isn't the only stories worth telling. And they don't represent the only good superhero narratives.
This division in the fandom happened when Marvel announced they were making _Captain Marvel,_ and then some people lost their sh*t. Up to that point, new content was met with an open mind. Not Everything was loved equally, but nothing was despised. But when CM was announced, it wasn't what some fans wanted, so they split from the fandom and went to war. They carried on a campaign from the first trailer drop, and they've never stopped.
They don't try to meet new characters with goodwill. They only want to know what's wrong with them. And approaching content that way, they absolutely will find something to hate, then hyper-focus on it. They're not going to enjoy anything they didn't already like. And they won't let anyone else enjoy anything either. Vote-bombing new shows from go, and then shaming others for liking them is their method of engaging with the fandom. Everything gets viewed through a lens of negativity.
These fans expect the stuff they like to fair chance, but they offer no consideration in return. I totally get why people stay away. Myself, I no longer care that Daredevil's coming out. I'm not excited for the X-Men. The "True Fans" have made me sick of this whole genre. They want superhero content only for themselves. They can have it.
@@1monki You're not understanding these aren't new characters to them. As somebody that too reads the comics the comics don't do justice by a lot of these characters. Then when it comes to the movies creators are openly saying "I didn't read the comic or I don't care" then when the story is jank people gonna call it out.
It's double sided negativity where fans dislike casuals and normies just consuming whatever and saying the same "I liked I don't understand why anybody else wouldn't" That sounds like the other side of coin of blind hatred where people go "This suck it's the worse thing ever made" It reads like BOTH didn't see it and just want to signal boost their side.
Super heroes really was FOR THEM they're the ones that watched when it was lame and then a bunch of people that called them losers before "loved" the content and claimed they always did. Yet personally the MCU was mired by A LOT of BS behind the scenes mainly with how the copyrights were scattered due to the Marvel screwing up in the 90s and almost going bankrupt. Those fans stuck by them through those times. They're why the Blade, Spider-Man, Hulk, X-Men, Punisher movies inspired the MCU. Then most of what Netflix's Marvel dropped was gold. Since it handled adult themes with adult characters well. This is something MCU waited way too long to do.
They should have yet they couldn't because again backstage BS was rampant Ike Perlmutter set the MCU back. Due to he didn't think a woman could lead. This is why CM was thrown in late and BW was made way too late. Yet I can say a lot of characters got done dirty, most of them are female characters. I put that weight on Marvel whom knew better yet kept on pushing for something that they knew was gonna get made fun off. They fed the troll very well.
Like CM's hate is because of the reader base in the comics Carol was an AWFUL person since the first Civil War. Then Kamala being her superfan was just sad because she was a fan of a not so great person. At least they had Kamala call her out and move away from under her shadow. Then Marvel killed her for a month, brought her back as a mutant to align with the MCU ver. Yet the Mutants just wanted to use her for "good PR".
The vitriol on Brie Larson had always seemed unfair in my opinion, especially in the way it started with a comment that was taken out of context. And yes, she might came across as being awkward but that doesn't necessarily mean she's a bad person.
On the character of Carol Danvers though, I wanna see the MCU Carol to be shaken up a little bit more. I want to see a story where she's truly broken, emotionally and physically, but eventually get herself together. Not because she wants to, but she has to as a hero. I feel like Brie Larson could truly deliver on that premise, if only Marvel Studios would be willing to go to take that extent in a movie.
Gotta be honest, part of the reason I like the EMH version so much is because she's voiced by Jennifer Hale who also voices Commander Shepard from Mass Effect, which I love.
I just watched Marvels and honestly it was a lot of fun. Carol being self conscious and kinda awkward helped her a lot. Carol, Monica and Kamala were a really nice trio and their interactions were fun to watch. And let's face it, if EMH came out today the same dudebros would complain about Carol. It's not how the character is written. They complain about every female character but love Eowyn going "i am no man" and oneshotting the Witch King. Anything pre 2013 is good and anything after is bad REGARDLESS of the character.
Eowyn didn't oneshot the Witch King.
She stabbed him in the face after Merry stabbed him in the knee, and she was severely injured in the process.
In the book, Eowyn's line is defiance in the face of almost certain death. In the movie it was portrayed more as a "girlboss" moment, but not so badly as to strip the meaning from the moment.
Engaging in amateur psychoanalysis of people you don't like, usually for completely fictional reasons, is a hallmark of people who've never learned to argue rationally. Usually a product of the American (un)education system.
@@freman007 I'm sorry, but these people complain that modern cartoons are "political" and call things "woke" if they feature a prominent black person or woman.
These people will praise old cartoons like Static shock and call them unpolitical even though the story is about gun violence, cops misusing their power and disregarding people who are poor or black. And then pretend that's not political.
Or pretend Original Star Wars, the movie inspired by the Vietnam War isn't political. I can list you many more examples of how people who complain about this are hypocrites.
Look me in the eye and tell me if a movie came out where a woman takes off her helmet and girlbosses "i am no man" and TWO shots one of the major antagonists wouldn't be followed by hundreds of takedown videos.
Shows like EMH, Static Shock and movies like LOTR and SW aren't inherently less political, they just came out before people could make a living crying over females in media. They came out when people were too young to notice. But now when they see these things in media they think modern media is different instead of realizing they just grew up and media has always had these things.
Merry stabbed him in the knee to immobilize him and Eowyn killed him in one shot.
Also you're the only one psychoanalyzing and projecting things here, buddy. Idk, but people freaking out, harassing women for existing in movies isn't fiction, it's the real world. You're awfully defensive towards me calling it out tho.
its not a good movie, its filled with nonsense plotting and slumber party like two of them aren't over 30
Eowyn works cause she is out of her depth despite her attitude which she realizes
I've honestly gotten to the point where I have completely lost all enthusiasm for the MCU. I've never been able to put a distinct finger on why, but I just get bored.
It's because Marvel or personally a majority of Superhero content is better at grounded levels. Where you can understand the stakes without having to keep up with shows and or McGuffins. Like the movie/show can work as a stand alone piece. Like how Netflix Marvel shows did. Like what the CW tried and failed to do. What the DCAU did perfectly. I always hated Marvel the moment it goes out into space that's the place gods of GODS be. Creatures can just make or unmake planets, treat black holes like paint brushes, stars like shiny rocks. Most people can't vibe with that level of crazy.
They are the exact same archetype, that is true, but the key difference is that EMH Carol is a lot nicer and easy going, and her ruthlessness is used to give her important character development. Let me put it this way, if Hal Jordan was nothing else other than cocky, people would hate him and, indeed, some fans do hate him. However, if those flaws are used for the character to grow, then the characterization is welcomed.
But a lot of people seem to love cocky male characters, as long as they're either funny or badass. Just look at Batman as the icon who is the definition of cocky and he almost never suffers for it (with the exception of Knightfall), because he has "prep time". And his fans would probably hate him if he suddenly expressed genuine fear for himself or became very humble or had more situations where he won because of luck, not because he's "prepared for every situation".
To clarify, I don't mean to say that Batman doesn't have vulnerable moments. But it's not what the fans love him for. They want him to be perfect, they want him to kick Superman's butt or come out on top of every situation. If he was a woman, he'd be called a Mary Sue instantly. Double standards are clearly in play in some fandoms.
@@bloodymares, yeah, that is very true as well.
hell yea this video puts it so well! i had to write down part of your conclusion so i can whip it out when my family is criticizing something. “there’s a difference between a character themselves, how we’re shown that character, and what impression that showing leaves a viewer with.”
i grew up on EMH and always loved carol in it. then the mcu released their movie and i genuinely liked it. there were some parts that made it feel disconnected from the rest of the mcu, but nothing so bad that i couldn’t suspend my disbelief. and then most people i knew started criticizing the movie like it was an affront to god!
i like criticizing movies as much as the next person, but like. sometimes you can just say “it wasn’t for me” and move on. the portrayal of the character left a bad impression on you, we get it. ranting for the length of the movie isn’t gonna help ya, buddy.
MCU Iron Man is a smug arrogant douche bag. This is treated as a failing of his. He needs to learn to put aside his ego, to put others first, and to sacrifice if he is to become a real hero. MCU Thor is a smug arrogant douche bag. This is treated as a failing of his. He needs to learn to humble himself, to hold onto his temper, to think before he acts, and to consider the consequences if he is to become a real hero. MCU Captain Marvel is a smug arrogant douche bag. This is treated as a triumph. She doesn't need to correct anything to be a hero, she already is a hero and she just to needs to embrace that even harder. To really throw her weight around and run roughshod over everybody else. To be more smug. To be more arrogant. To be true to her inner douche bag. Everything that the MCU used to treat as bad and wrong and un-heroic is suddenly treated as good and proper and righteous when it comes from Captain Marvel.
That's the real problem with MCU Captain Marvel: ignoring what we have repeatedly been told to be character flaws and potential sources of growth in favor of the narrative pretending that there are no flaws at all, that there is no need for personal growth, and that the only real issue Carol has is that she is being held back from her true potential by insidious gaslighting agents of male supremacy in need of a good laser blasting. And then laser blasting an insidious gaslighting agent of male supremacy and being smugly arrogant at him solves all the problems. No growth. No arc. Just effortlessly overcoming somebody that was never really a threat to her in the first place. It's lame, it's boring, and it's completely backwards from everything that came before it in a lame and boring way.
ps: "As tough as Thor and nearly as strong as the Hulk" is one thing. Easily handling in a 1v1 the same guy who wiped the floor with Hulk is something else altogether.
I think some of the Captain Marvel dislike, or downright hate, is to do with people's misplaced feelings about the larger part of MCU context that she seems to represent to many fans. The cosmic side of MCU, that Marvel did kind of drop the ball with (not counting the GOTG movies).
Now, I'm not trying to excuse anyone's attitudes, or hate. Many people are just A-holes. But talking about those who seem to dislike CM without being able to give much of a coherent reason as to why.
People were seemingly expecting more from the cosmic MCU. Guardians of the Galaxy movies have been great, but people really wanted MCU to expand more into that direction after Endgame. Characters like Nova, Quasar and Captain Marvel were expected to become the new trinity, after the decade of mostly earth bound heroes. Secret Invasion was expected to become this multimovie length background plot, like the discovery of infinity stones had been. Kree-Skrull war was seen as the next Infinity war. But Marvel let fans down with those. While Earth's Mightiest Heroes (to what I understand, I haven't seen the full show) did those storylines rather well. Add to that the poorly planned let-down that many fans feel the Multiverse-saga storyline has been.
I think in some people's minds (not all of them haters, though) Captain Marvel in the MCU has become the character incarnate of those broken hopes. So they are letting out their frustrations on her.
i think it's interesting how carol did become Captain Marvel in Avengers Assemble but no-one recognizes that because the fandom deemed AA's "bad" despite most of the ones claiming said thing didn't watch the show.
idk maybe im just petty but seeing someone talk about AA and EMH again in a positive light is so hard to digest when both fandoms are mostly dead with aa only staying alive with its fandom being huge with multiverse stuff and the fact that its the only known universe where civil war and secret wars got a happy ending :v
also,, its the only universe where steve and tony get character development and stay together during civil war, which continued on from emh's blueprint in a different timeline but im just gonna yap if i continue speaking :p
Pillar of Garbage please make an AA analysis, it's such an underrated gem of a show with alot of nuance i'd think you'd do good covering it and showing how good it is
I prefer the EMH version but that's mostly colored by my adoration for the show itself and my general love of Hale's body of work. I'm pretty indifferent to the MCU version myself and I can't put my finger on why. It's weird because the character is meant to be one of most powerful Avengers and yet she spends most of her time off planet. On one hand it shows that she's so powerful that intergalactic threats are part of her bailiwick but at the same time when she spends so much time ignoring Earth how are we the audience, made up entirely of earthlings, meant to root for her? Even when she gets her moments to show off her power in the movies, for example going toe-to-toe with Thanos, it's still a bigger priority to show Thanos' resourcefulness to be able to take care of such a threat on the fly than it is to REALLY give Carol a moment of dominance.
Not sure if you've played Midnight Suns but I found Erica Lindbeck's portrayal of Carol to be pretty excellent. She comes across as straight-laced and tough while also feeling upbeat and likeable. As a side note that game makes the incredibly smart decision to cast Brian Bloom as Steve Rogers and it just solidifies to me that he's the best Captain America in all of media. I just wish so much of his dialogue in the game wasn't dedicated to telling the main character how "great" they are.
Liking the video, and agreed the problems start with framing for Captain Marvel (CM) in her first movie and how she starts and ends that movie. But I have a different example for that.
Stop me if you heard this one before. A super powered blond belonging to a heroic warrior culture has a grudge to settle. The warrior goes into battle against the suggestion of an authority figure. That warrior gets in over their head because they ignored advice expressively given to them by that earlier authority figure. In the resulting chaos and resolution of that chaos the warrior gets stranded on earth. Sounds familiar right? That was Thor(Hates Ice Giants/ Goes to Jotunheim/ given a chance to walk from a fight and seek peace but chooses violence/gets banished to earth). It also happens to be Captain Marvel (Grudge against the skrull/countermands superior officer on mission and pulls team into a firefight/gets captured and because she doesn't know how to fighting without her powers or at least limit them blows a hole in the ship/stranded on earth). There is a lot of common ground in the story structure of these two characters until they arrive on earth. The difference is Thor must then go through a character arc, temper his ego, and even embrace some of the advice his father gave him. Thor is expected to grow past his flaws. CM doesn't. She does go on an adventure, but she doesn't have a character arc. Even though she has a character flaw (Pride), it isn't overcome by emotional growth but instead by becoming exactly as powerful as she thinks she is. And that is not narratively fulfilling or interesting.
Ironically if we did want this to be a "Girl Power Movie" as so many of the critics of the character and movie claim it to be the elements are still there, but the writing prevents them from being impactful. If you want her blasting Jude Law/Patriarchy into a mountain, then it would be more impactful if she had NOT used her powers during their initial training exercise. Instead have her follow the rules and have her lose, showing that playing by their rules she can't win/they are holding her back so she can be controlled. At least then it would be her learning to embrace her powers instead of doing exactly what she did at the start of the movie but wearing different colors.
You brought up Captain America and how he lacked an arc in his first movie. You are correct, he has no arc (or at least a heavily telegraphed one), but he was also not set up to have one. Steve Rogers was always a morally good man with or without the powers and how others bouneced off of him was the narratively fulfilling element of the story. How Captain America without powers is still the man Carter would fall in love with, would inspire Bucky to be brave, and once he did get the powers could instill fear in hateful men. He is a paragon and the point of a paragon is to show how the other characters and the world react to him (also to break the paragon but that is a discussion for another time). It deft hand to write a main character without an arc, and marvel pulled it off... at leeast early on. While most of the video was good, this comparison did you no favors.
Captain Marvel isn't the worst written character ever, and she certainly doesn't give anyone cancer, but her initial movie and portrayal in Endgame did her zero favors. She came off as narratively bland and so strong she can no sell Thanos, causing her presence to kill the tension when she was on screen. In short, Captain Marvel in the MCU was boring. I hope the new movie fixes these problems.
P.S. Going after Brei Larson is just dumb, and people doing it as part of their argument are just fools. We agree wholesale there.
I'm going to go see it with my girlfriend, although we already know the usual suspects that want to see it fail.
This made me regret my past ideas and actions. I didn't go out of my way to lay hate on her back but I did jump on that hate train more than I should of. That was mad unfair and I think if nothing else people need to be more aware about giving in to the crowd just because they feel whatever feeling they feel at the time. It can easily be misplaced. All that to say, thanks! This was enlightening and of value to me as an enjoyed of fiction and as someone who perhaps needs to do a bit more self reflection lol.
Cheers to growth man. Happy for you. The content we consume has insane control over us without us even knowing.
The EMH version has chemistry with the team. Big Screen version doesn’t have that same chemistry.
I miss EMH so much and I want it back, everytime I see the concept for future seasons. Is the Yostverse movement still ongoing?
A big factor for me is the difference between a show and movies.
Simply by having the character in a tv show with more time to actually interact with other characters vs a movie where they have much more limited time, makes it easier to engage with the character.
I think she's ok. I feel like they rushed her. I still think she should have been a background like she was in the comics until she gets her powers.
I can't wait for Marvel and hopefully improve the character.
“The Marvels” was okay. Just about on par with the first. I actually still like the first more. Not terrible, not good. Just okay. At least the first one takes a few moments to take in the more emotional beats, where “The Marvels” just fast forwards past them.
The EMH version of Carol was the first version I was exposed to. Despite being inspired to dive into the comics, she’s still my favorite interpretation. I was excited for the first film hoping she would be similar. While she shares a lot of the same characteristics, the cartoons were better. She was just written more naturally in EMH. It always fascinating to me that the cartoons have more mature and naturally written characters.
“Captain Marvel” sits about on par with “Thor” in my MCU movie rankings. Hell, it’s essentially the same film, beat for beat. “The Marvels” sits somewhere between “Thor” and “Thor Love and Thunder.”
Being different from EMH doesn’t inherently make something lesser. Heck, Starlord was his classic comic book self in EMH as Marvel’s Master Chief-like character. The MCU version is a so different, being a lovable doofus that has moments of heart and badassery, but is still a great version of the character.
Im not going to lie i really just wish they would bring back her old color scheme from when she was mrs marvel it always looked really cool to me the rest of the costume looks fine and i know the colors are supposed to be similar to the originals costume i just think the black and red looks really slick
My problem with this take is using EMH Carol Danvers as an exemple of "beloved" adaptation, the show is quite good a lot of people like it but its reach is ridiculously weak there's not a fraction of the public discussing MCU Carol who watched it, even me who has watched the show I barely remembered Carol being in it. That's actually quite the problem, I am mostly familiar with Carol Danvers from her comicbook appearances in team books from the 2000's and beyond and she was never a highlight, it almost feels like she's there as eyecandy being the most prominent female member. They did change her outfit for something less eyecandy and give her a solo title, I admit to not being familiar with her solo title but I did have the occasion to cross path with this new version in the Ultimate comicbook (not the universe, the cosmic team with Blue Marvel) and she still wasn't a highlight Idk I think comparing MCU captain Marvel with what they tried on her solo title might be more interesting it may have been one of the only times they actually tried to make the character stand on her own besides the movie. It's hard to make a movie about a side character with such paperthin personnality they just did not build enough around the character for her movie to feel satisfying to me.
I have copies of her original Ms Marvel series. Not all, but most of them.
She was always a "Marvel version of a feminist icon" but her powers were never so great that she could be untouchable. Like Spider-Man she was strong when she needed to be, and vulnerable when she needed to be.
The problem with Marvel writers is that they confuse "powerful" for "interesting".
Superman is not interesting because he's powerful. He's interesting because he's a good man, with the power of a god, and his struggles arise from being a good man, and therefore always cut off from doing the easiest thing, which is simply to pop Luther's head like a pimple.
MCU Carol is Superman powerful, but with none of the underlying personality. She would pop Luther's head, and so a major source of conflict, and hence interest, is removed.
This is something a lot of non-readers refuse to accept. If you been reading Carol made a wish to be the most popular hero since she was aware she was D list hero. This "meta" commentary ruined her in the comic since she was just an awful person doing awful things. The MCU trying to make her a paragon of hope off of one movie pissed them off when we know Wanda was the most powerful in the MCU which they confirmed.
I've never had a problem with Larson tbh. My issue is with how disconnected and overly important captain marvel portrays herself. I have no problem with her being as powerful as she is, but I think seeing some cracks would have helped to ground her character more for me
I just realized that ronan is voiced by Keith Szarabajka(the reaper harbinger) and captain marvel is voiced by Jennifer hale(commander shepard)
Is that Jennifer Hale's voice?
That's the answer right there
You'll never be better than Commander Shepard
amen
Hope to see a review on the movie but anyways great video 🙏🏽
You missed the part where she unapologetically stole some poor dudes' bike. Dont remember that happening in the emh show...
Main difference was that EMH Carol struggled with figuring out her powers and finding a stable place with the avengers. That made her compelling as a newer hero. MCU Carol had already decades to figure stuff out, so it makes in universe sense how she acts, but for the viewer she comes across as arrogant and overpowered. So it makes sense story wise but not plot wise
Edit: okay, I should watch the video first. Still, EMH is just ❤❤❤❤❤
Absolutely excellent analysis
Whole-heartedly agree with you. As a non comic book fan, I've never treated MCU films as anything but big old dump Hollywood blockbusters. And I'm saying this in the most endearing way. This kinda things have entertained me for almost five decades. I don't see any difference between the first Captain America and the first Captain Marvel. I don't think Thor 4 is that much worse than Thor 3. The are all entertaining, predictable, and comforting.
I agree with some of the points here and the vitriol the character gets certainly far exceeds what is reasonable, but I think only giving importance to broad-strokes characterization is a mistake. Two characters can appear very similar when you just write down their core traits on paper, but they may feel vastly different in how those traits are actually manifested on-screen. How the character is played and how they're written on a moment-to-moment basis has far more impact on an audience's affection than their general traits in most cases. Obviously the two are related, but they're not the same. It's the difference between confident and cocky, funny and annoying, charming and smarmy, cool and callous. It's also responsible for how the traits are balanced. When a character has conflicting tendencies in a scene (by-the-book stoicism vs. enjoying a fight, for instance) how often does each side win out, and for how long? A hard-nose badass who only cracks a smile in the most intense moments of life-and-death struggle is a very different character from a stickler for the rules until given the chance to gleefully throw justified violence at a problem.
I think two major problems exist with Carol in the MCU. The bleeding of the issues people have with Brie Larson and the rushed expansion of her character's role in relation to the events that had been cooking for nearly 5 years. She was definitely shoehorned in last minute and personally I was VERY excited to see get her own movie. What happened, is that she became a victim of bad PR and bad planning from the MCU execs. She didn't spend nearly ANY time with the Avengers....or ANYONE on Earth for any amount of time that the audience could accept. To me, the failure lies at Kevin Fiege's feet. He rushed the character's development and she should have been around far more for events on Earth.
Asking whether EMH did something better than the MCU seems like a rhetorical question. As the answer is obviously yes, they did.
I think a good way to redeem her character in the eyes of the public would be to give her the alcoholism problem from the comics, and it be from a regret of her actions. Have other Marvel characters her through this, maybe have Nick Fury talk to her across a table like in Iron Man 2.
I don’t hate Brie Lawson as an actor or a person. I also don’t love how she portrayed Carol in the movies. Both can be true. It may not all be her fault. I think creators in the MCU might have forgotten that the character she was playing for most of the first movie was a Carol that was a bit of a shell of herself because her memory was whipped and her true personality slowly emerges as the movie goes on. We only see the full Captain Marvel toward the end of the movie and in flashbacks. Another commenter cited that her reaction to a guy harassing her was over the top, but that is Carol in a nutshell. If Bree would have built on that in all her later appearances I would see her as a better fit for Carol. However, in every other appearance it feels like she regressed back to who she was as a Kree soldier most of the time. Bree Lawson, and/or the creative teams around her, tend to want to make her more understated when Carol is best when she is portrayed and a strong personality that fights fire with Napalm. I know you could say that she was more subdued because she was guilty about what her rash actions did to the Kree, but that’s a big L for Marvel for not giving us that movie so we could see that character arc. At the very least, instead of being a reluctant roll model who opens up, they should have made her the fun aunty who loves being looked up to, but maybe doesn’t fully realize that she isn’t being the best influence and has to grow in that way.
That being said, it took Chris Helmsworth a few shots and creative teams before he settled on a depiction of Thor that worked (which everyone seems to forget). I’m willing to give Bree another shot at Carol. She is capable of portraying her in her full glory. We’ve seen it in glimpses. She needs an opportunity to do that throughout a movie.
YES MORE Marvel Yostverse VIDEOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One quibble, in the MCU she does not appear to be "almost as strong as the Hulk" the way she no sells that headbutt from Thanos seems to mark her as stronger because of how easily Thanos beat up the Hulk in a previous film, even if that wasn't the intent. Honestly, I think if they hadn't included the headbutt, people wouldn't mind that scene so much.
I also think the reason the finale of Captain Marvel is unsatisfying is that none of the arcs are set up well or polished. Lots of things in the movie feel like resolutions to setups that never happened, including the scene where she blasts her former superior officer. She is never particularly shown to have a need for his approval and even if she did, her path to rejecting that need is not outlined. The movie just feels like nothing quite comes together completely, like it needed a bit more time in the oven to make connections to its own arcs and not just to a political agenda. It could maintain its general feminist talking points and still be well done, but it's just not.
I also think a lot of people's dislike of the character is reactionary. Captain Marvel discourse online is very charged and people are quick to label people who were not fond of the movie has sexist. This unfair treatment doesn't generally further endear a movie to people. People who are told they must like the movie or they are sexist (even though they enjoyed the Wonder Woman movie that came out a few years prior) tend to develop a greater disdain for the film and its fans. Ascribing poor motives to people tends to radicalize them against you, and if Captain Marvel had just come out, been a kind of mediocre but underbaked origin story, and people who said so were not lambasted, I think people wouldn't think much about the movie anymore. It would be like some random Thor movie or Dr. Strange where some people kinda like it and some don't, but most are indifferent.
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to Brie Larson's Carol Danvers as "dorky". That is not an adjective that has ever crossed my mind regarding that character. Peter Parker and Bruce Banner are dorks. Carol is an arrogant amnesiac.
That was such a great deep dive into how these versions of Carol work and are presented! A legitimate exercise of figuring out their narrative purposes and character traits, really liked it. It’s hard to talk about MCU Carol’s negatives without being dragged into “anti-woke” dumb conversations.
Really enjoyed the new movie though!
Yeah the whole "shoulda done her like emh" never made sense to me. She's up there with Steve, Toni and Vision as versions whose portrayals between the two universes are incredibly similar. Look at Wasp, Hulk or especially Hawkeye for fundamentally different portrayals.
Well wasp isn’t the wasp in the MCU cuz she’s the 2nd Wasp not the first.
YEEEEEEESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! More Yostverse stuff! Can’t wait to watch 🤩
Well obviously the difference of why people like the one from the cartoon is that one is showing some legs.
Im so glad I found this video and your channel! It’s been unbearable to see all the hate train against this new movie, your video and analysis was a breath of fresh air.
the editing of endgame and the placement of both her movies screwed her over with """"fans"""" royally
I love your videos. I can't believe you don't have more subs.
What motivated me to watch the original Captain Marvel was all of its negative attention. I actually like Brie as she was in Community, United States of Tara and the Room she is a good actress so I went in hoping to like it but I found it boring, at the time I thought too formulaic. You make a good point maybe because the movie and character was shoe horned in prevented the audience from properly relating to her and the other cast. Also your numerous signal boosting of Avengers EMH is noticed and appreciated.
EMH had the best version of every character.
My biggest issue with her in the MCU is how much of her origins got left out. Her roots as Ms. Marvel is important to her character, and her taking up the mantle of Captain Marvel after the death of Mar-Vell. Because of how late her introduction was to the movies and that they wanted to introduce Kamala Khan's Ms. Marvel, they rushed Carol into skipping Ms. Marvel and becoming Captain Marvel first.
There was also the poor marketing with Brie Larson making political statements about who should and shouldn't watch the movie based on their gender, when superhero movies should focus on superhero fans, regardless of how they are able to reproduce.
It took me way too long to realize you were talking about Earth's Mightiest Heroes and not the Emergency Medical Hologram.
I’ve never seen a better appropriately named channel after watching their video 😂😂😂
Pillar of Garbage? Name Checks Out! #shorts
czcams.com/users/shorts8Pv2BIq7RfU?feature=share
It is interesting how many small channels try to make a terrible story something better on behalf of Disney.
I hope you do actually like it and are not just cashing a check. It's better to be an honest fool. than
so true!!
I like the future avengers version. I'm really sad no one gives that anime any attention. It's awesome.
You should do a comparison and contrast with the Axel Braun parody version of Carol Danvers.
I always like Carol as a character in the MCU. Her first film felt like a Phase 1 film. Her sequel makes me like her even more, especially with her chemistry with Monica and Kamahla
bot
Her first film threw the whole Phases 1-3 to the mud. Only Black Panther was spared because he had his own lore.
It’s hard to write someone like that truly. I thought she was alright especially in the captain marvel movies
Honestly, the funny thing is, is that Invincible comic Mark is actually pretty similair to Marvel in both power level in the verse and her character is played by allegiances. For me, the lack of cocky attitude and self reflection on how Mark sucks in last fight with Mauler and is what makes his show character quite lacking and feels like a punching bag to soak the melodrama the original source is mocking in a lot of ways while showing how Mark's superiority to most is double edged sword is a thing you need to be worry about, all the while we see gradual shift from asshole teenager to person who tries best but is really doesn't know how and screw up hard to somewhat morally dubious but earnest protector. Show drops most of nuance and let's PTSD drama and patheticness dictate the story instead of giving Mark so needed agency that it keeps stealing from the beginning.
Never thought I'd see you referencing Dave Cullen.
My takeaway from this is that The Quartering peaked too soon with his crusade against Wizards of the Coast and needs something in his life other than making a living grifting angry 16 year olds because black skin and/or females make them uncomfortable.