Does She-Hulk Hate Men?
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- She-Hulk hates men. Apparently. If you're convinced this is is the case, or alternatively, if you think this whole idea is moon-man talk, this is probably the video for you. We're talking about why there's really no solid argument for 'She-Hulk as toxic misandry', we're breaking apart some related discourse, we're getting into why narratives like this appear and spread, and we're getting into what She-Hulk - and that now-(in)famous opening episode - actually is saying.
If you haven't seen it, you should probably peep the previous, related video: • The Critical Drinker -...
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Sydney Watson's very intelligent video: • The failure of feminis...
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#mcu #shehulk #marvel
Timestamps:
0:00 Does She-Hulk Hate Men?
0:32 Part One, ..No?
6:08 Part Two, 'Toxic Feminism'
14:22 Part Three, Why it's Happening
20:37 Part Four, Re-evaluating She-Hulk
33:23 Conclusion
In She-Hulk: Attorney at Law, Jennifer Walters has a complicated life as a single, 30-something attorney who also happens to be a green 6-foot-7-inch superpowered hulk. She-Hulk: Attorney at Law is an American television series created by Jessica Gao for the streaming service Disney+, based on the Marvel Comics featuring the character She-Hulk. It is the eighth television series in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) produced by Marvel Studios, sharing continuity with the films of the franchise. It follows Jennifer Walters, a lawyer specializing in cases involving superhumans, who also becomes the green superhero She-Hulk. Gao serves as head writer with Kat Coiro leading the directing team. Tatiana Maslany stars as Jennifer Walters / She-Hulk, alongside Jameela Jamil, Ginger Gonzaga, Mark Ruffalo, Josh Segarra, Mark Linn-Baker, Tess Malis Kincaid, Tim Roth, Megan Thee Stallion, Benedict Wong, Renée Elise Goldsberry, Jon Bass, Rhys Coiro, Griffin Matthews, Patti Harrison, and Charlie Cox. - Zábava
Hey! Was hoping to premiere this but having internet issues. Sorry!
it’s all good 😆we had internet issues all last week in FL which was kinda a relief cuz that way i didn’t have to hear form all the FL men around me as much, xP so regardless, genuinely fr🙏bless u for this video🙌 Oh & 14:00yess plzzz✊😤Would sooO appreciate & share around yet another follow-up where u further put-down more specific examples, cuz😅as u know, NandoV.Movies was kind enough to only just call-out 1 specific youtuber by name (17:45 among the many others he called out indirectly) who was really asking to get called out 🙃Yet since then, only 2 or 3 other fellow properly-researching & thorough good-faith analysts, on YT, have gone out of their way to call out a slightly higher number or percentage of people by name🫠
Oh, come on! You are just being an anti-anti-sjw here!
You claiming that all the youtube critics are hateful anti-sjws and they are all fundamentaly wrong. You want to declare that they have absolutely no real reason or argument at all, and just attacking the show for money. Your rhetoric argue that they are intentionally dishonest just because they fighting the (in your opinion) not existing "feminist agenda". But with being this dismissive to others's opinion and also waging this culture war yourself, you also seem just as biased and toxic.
Like you saying that people can have valid criticism with the show (just not that opinion that goes against mine or agrees with people I hate). Or claiming that Jen putting Hulk in his place with the female anger speech was actually good (and anyone saying otherwise is clearly just a fragile manbaby. ) And of course you dancing back from what you said that not you, I dont meant you fellow civilised freethinker who agrees with me. No, I referring at the bad guys who agrees with my enemies. Including anyone thinking or looking at scenes differently, that I can paint as hating female characters, that obviously caused by the toxic anti-sjws is brainwashing videos.
Oh, but who am I kidding? You all this time just ignored the toxicity from the entertainment's side and pretends like it didnt exist at all, because it contradicts your opinion that the only problem here are the anti-sjws. You yourself said it, that you literally love the toxicity from them. Taking jabs at the viewers who might have a criticism to the show as toxic and ridiculing them as angry manbabies is not "being self aware" its being toxic.
Like what do you think would have been more productive:
A, Intentionally taking part in the nonsense culture war with making the critics the literal villains of the show and painting anyone with criticism as toxic. Like what message this plot really sends out? That they themselves wants this controversy and just giving valid reasons to the "toxic critics". Its being nothing more just unprofessional, lazy, petty and toxic.
B, Making the effort to write an interesting and engaging story about that people dont like Jen's She-Hulk for no reason. But with her compassionate actions, bravery and heroism throught the show she slowly changing the people is minds. Making the audience actually love the show and the "toxic critics" look as fools for not even giving it a chace.
Yeah, we know which option the showrunners choosed, because they are just as toxic as you wants to make the "toxic critics" out to be. But you cant be honest and admit that this is not just a one-sided problem and both sides are at in the wrong with pushing this culture war.
I wish you'd stop using their language. It's not "anti-woke," it's racism. Just racism. Calling it "anti-woke" is their attempt to normalize racism by suggesting "wokeness" is some alien concept promoted by ideologues, when in fact it's just the absence of racism. They do the same thing with "alt-right." It's not "alt-right," it's fascism. It's just garden-variety fascism. They call it "alt-right" because, quite rightly, most people have a visceral negative reaction to fascism, just as they do to racism.
@@NoJusticeNoPeace kinda have to agree with ya
And also, thanks man for doing this.
People need to hear this.
On the "male superheroes don't have time for women" point, Tony's character arc is massively about his marriage to Pepper, Steve's reward for being such a Good Boy is to finally get to be with Peggy, Peter's love for MJ is the most important motivation for him in all his movies, Thor becomes a hero because of Jane, and Clint's wife and kids are so important to him he quits the Avengers. In fact "I'd rather be with this hottie instead of saving the world, but you gotta do what you gotta do" is like the main character tension of most of the classic mcu.
Shhhhhhh we can't let a simple thing like key plot points stop us from owning the libs.
There's a certain moto about responsibility that always seems to rear its head🤔
Maybe the idea is that they push their feelings aside to do the right thing at the moment.
With great power...ya know?
Whereas She-Hulk just gets railed by men but omg! What about her dress for the gala?!?!?!
We gotta go see the black gay guy and omfg! Is that Meghan Thee Stallion?!?!
Omg gurll let's twerk!!
I fucking hate Marvel, but even I could afford someone leaving the hero profession out of grief after a villain decimates their entire family.
Bruh wut? Throughout the show it’s shown that Jen prioritizes fighting for good. Your complaining that the protagonist in a slice of life sitcom, is seen living a life@@theofficialvernetheturtley338
@@dennile_7355 Ah yes, the fight for good. Daredevil but female style. Which includes fighting for names on beauty products, suing elves for defamation because they impersonated Meghan Thee Stallion, cease and desisting a magician, stopping evil redditors who are mean to her, and fighting Abomination, who leaked her sex tape.
Come on. That's really the same heroism as male Marvel counterparts?
I like how Sydney implies that women need a justification to be in a story instead of just being allowed to exist in stories or have stories about them.
So it's Ok for a Man to have Justification to be in The Story but Not Women STFU Sexist and Stop Being such a Woman Oppressor
If you've actually watched her content at all, including the video that this guy barely talks about, what Sydney wants is more characters like Ripley from Aliens, Leia/Padme from Star Wars, etc, and less political agendas. Strong women who are actual characters and are well-written, rather than more mary sue garbage like Rey from Disney's god awful fan fiction trilogy.
I can't speak to She-Hulk and its characteristics because I haven't seen it, though this video did a really bad job swaying me to the other side because.. it doesn't really make any arguments either, just insists that certain things are true instead of demonstrating how and why they're true with reason and evidence that is proportional to the claims being made, but accusing Sydney of wanting there to be a justification for a woman to be in a story when you clearly don't know anything about her is disingenuous at best, and the fact that this comment was even hearted by this video's creator just solidifies my impression that this video was made in bad faith and is just as reactionary as the criticisms he's accusing of being reactionary.
I like to decide what I believe independently based on reason and evidence, and if this is how the response to She-Hulk's criticism is going to be, whether that criticism be bad or good, then I must say I'm not particularly interested in even pirating the show so I can check it out for myself. You're defeating your own purposes of defending the show by being just as disingenuous or dishonest as the other side of the argument that you've accused of being dishonest and/or disingenuous. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I'm more likely to give genuine consideration to what you have to say if you're not a hypocrite.
@Miguel Garay I literally said that I haven't watched the show and that I can't speak to its characteristics, and I did exactly that; I didn't speak about She-Hulk and its qualities at all. Could you at least be bothered to read what I said instead of just assuming that I'm saying that a character can't bring up social issues affecting them in their own story?
If you have to assume that I'm agreeing with a named and/or unnamed "right wing boogeyman" as a default premise before actually reading all of what I said, and then use that premise as a basis to accuse me of saying certain things that line up with your narrative, not only do you not have an argument to begin with, but you're also a cultist.
Leftists trying not to be completely close-minded challenge: Impossible Difficulty. Smh
@Miguel Garay Agreeing with her sentiment that stories should have well-written female characters instead of poorly written ones like Rey doesn't mean that I agree with her conclusions on She-Hulk. How can I agree with her on something that I haven't watched, unless they make good substantive arguments with full-context and spoilers from the show that she obviously didn't make?
I'm not portraying Sydney Watson in a positive light. I'm just explaining what she wants out of female characters in fiction because the person who made this video and the person who wrote the original comment of this thread couldn't be bothered to understand what she wants out of them (as made evident with the creator of the video having an entire middle section dedicated to right-wing boogeymen huddling up and making "anti-woke propaganda" because it'll make them lots and lots of money, and the OP of this thread accusing Sydney of wanting there to be a justification for a woman to be in a story, even though that's literally not what she said). When exactly did presenting the facts become presenting someone or something in a positive light? Facts themselves are inherently neutral, and whether or not the truth is positive, negative, or neither, is based on what the facts convey.
I'm about to go to bed, so I don't have the energy to explain it, but if you've seen the Disney Trilogy, then I don't think it will be necessary to elaborate on exactly how and why Rey is a mary sue. That's just a self-evident truth if you're familiar with the concept of a mary sue/gary stu, though I realize that this comes off as circular reasoning. Like I said, I don't have the energy for this right now. If you need a refresher course on why she's a mary sue, just watch The Force Awakens again.
@Ashwin Varghese ah spoken like someone who hasn’t watched the show. And just regurgitates anti woke CZcamsrs
Actual valid criticisms should cover the actual writing, and Jen's complete ineptitude for the legal profession (and her colleagues inability to separate personal feelings and professional concerns in the Immortal episode). Just calling it "woke" is not that
I completely agree with you.
Using “woke” really only reveals the fact that you are afraid of anyone who isn't a straight cis-gendered white Protestant/Catholic man.
It's the reason for it. They just self-insert their feelings into random characters without doing any of the work and sprinkle in some Message to justify it
To be fair, it’s not a legal comedy, it’s more of a slice of life style show. I guess I would’ve liked more accuracy for the legal profession, but I can’t be too disappointed since the show doesn’t really pride itself on being accurate.
@@user-gw3bs2in5i its been stated to be a legal comedy by cast and staff
@@kai22333 Even then, the show itself basically jokes around about how it really isn’t.
I think the show would have benefited from having the first two episodes drop the same day. Having to stew for a week with Jen telling her cousin, who attempted suicide, that her life is harder than his hit me really hard. And considering how short episode 2 is they totally could have done it.
She's not saying her life was harder than his though, just she believes she's got a practiced skill she can apply.
I can see how it might come across that way though
@@Cheesusful Poor execution bro poor execution
@@seyio1717?
In "The Scene" she was comparing her anger management skills at the beginning of a Hulk path to his anger management skills. Just that. And she quite bluntly told him *he did have it worse than her* in the next scene, in the conversation by the jeep, when she argued she would like to not have a life like his.
@@Cheesusful dude over Bruce's time on the run from the government he tried every possible anger management techniques he could find. But the show was saying that because Jen is a woman, she knows how to deal with her anger better then the hulk because she deals with stuff Infinity more then Bruce ever did
Related to part 2, Ant-Man was also reluctant to become a hero in both his movies and was basically forced, so that is another case of a female character being held up to a double standard.
Ant-Man didn't have special powers, he just had access to a remarkable suit and learned some secrets about the man who invented it. It's not quite a like-for-like comparison
Scott is a different case, though. His powers aren’t as uncontrollable and dangerous as Jen’s, it’s easier for him to live a normal life than for Jen.
@dragonstormx
Dude you need to
Stop with this female
Characters are treated
Unfairly bs, it's untrue
& There are many things
That female characters
Do that get let off the hook
& Could be considered a
Double standard vice versa.
The reason why you were probably recommended many times a video about "she hulk toxic feminism" is probably because CZcams want to see if you will engage with something you disagree with, since most social media algorithm know that anger and disagreement creates a lot of engagement. Negativity fueled engagement but engagement nonetheless by an profite oriented system
And we Americans wonder why politics are so polarized nowadays...
I think you’re giving the CZcams algorithm too much credit. It’s not that smart. Those types of videos are popular across the platform and since you’ve probably clicked on at least one Marvel-related or film criticism video, CZcams assumes they’ll be popular with you as well.
@@flowersinawasteland It's literally an algorithm designed and optimized to keep you on CZcams for as long as possible. It's not "smart", it can just crunch numbers better than any human could dream of. All it knows is those types of videos get the most likes, dislikes, watch time, comments, etc. so it clumps them into a recommendation-hole to send Marvel / film criticism viewers to.
@@jamiemccreath3959 thats exactly what that guy said it does. It recomends videos related on what you've been watching and videos that have a lot of views, comments, likes etc
@@jonzinizin5498 yeah and I'm saying it deserves the credit.
The writers admitted they didn’t do any research on courtroom trials 🤡 but whatever on consistency gotta have muh
COMEdY
The bathroom sequence isn't exaggerated. Pub (UK here) / Bar bathrooms are the best places to find female solidarity. I've stood with a bathroom full of women ready to go out and shiv a strange man who's harassed an 18 year old girl (legal drinking age here for those who don't know) and have gone out of their way to get him thrown out, with prejudice, by the bouncers. I've stood with women telling a gorgeous woman that her boyfriend who told her she was ugly and no one could ever love her, that she deserved better and talked her up for an hour while she sobbed. I've been there through make overs, clothes swaps, hair styling (one of the clubs I worked in had a GHD set up in the ladies and one of the women there was a hairdresser who used it to curl a woman's hair who's husband was having an affair). That scene was the most realistic scene about a ladies room I've ever seen. They are awesome places and the ladies in them are awesome, awesome women.
In your experience of bathroom makeovers, did the helpful women fail to clean the troubled woman up before applying the make-up?
Same here is Portugal. I have anemia, and once almost passed out in a club bathroom. The girls there, who I had never seen before, immediately rushed to help me. Asked if I was ok, if I needed something, even offering to help me find my friends 💗🥰 You know, basic human decency
I wish we could bottle the bar women's bathroom energy and sell it to the world. Maybe then people would stop being so awful to each other.
@lucypeace6132
I think you're lying
& this is what annoys
Me you guys act as
if women are so kind
to each other, I've
Witnessed the complete
Opposite & see women
Being blatantly sexist
To each other.
@@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45
I don't believe this rheotric
it's saying women are all
peaceful & kind by default
that's Nonsense.
I figure Jen's speech wouldn't have been as controversial if instead of claiming she controls her anger more than Bruce, she had said something along the lines of "I'm good at controlling my anger because I've been doing it my whole life".
The former just invites brainless responses like "SHE'S SAYING CATCALLING IS WORSE THAN ABUSE AND BEING HUNTED DOWN BY THE MILITARY!"
THIS. I agree 100%. You can even keep the exact same delivery of the original line.
I agree 100% but at the same time I feel like the bigger issue is that ppl can’t really think critically abt these sorts of things anymore so either way they would have figured out a way to spin it to fit their stupid “She-Hulk hAteS mEn” narrative.
@@nach_0366 Definitely, there's nothing wrong with the speech if you actually think about it, but it would have made it easier to misinterpret. Then again, they probably would have found a way to get angry anyway.
I’m going to have to seriously disagree on that last bit about there being nothing wrong with the original speech. The version you proposed where she keeps the exact tone as in the original but just leaves it at “I’ve been doing it my whole life” would’ve been perfect. However, the second she says “I do it INFINITELY more than you” it becomes exactly what everyone says it is, man-hating garbage. There’s nothing brainless about basing your interpretation of a character, her show, and it’s message around something that is explicitly stated in the script.
Dude, Bruce was brought to the point of suicide cause of his anger problem.
"Got real low, didn't see a way out so I put a gun to my mouth and the other guy spat the bullet out"
--Bruce(avengers 1)
But you and the show are trying to tell the audience that Jen has it rougher cause she's a woman????
Through Episode 1 Jen felt more antagonist to Bruce then Bruce did to her
Bruce was imposing a whole lot onto her, and was openly jealous about her version of the hulk and even did the first act of aggression both when he pushed her off the hill, and when he tried to stop her from leaving.
Meanwhile Jen, in Hulks own words "Said a lot of mean things", and than retaliated when she was prevented from leaving.
He locked her in a tank with a moving wall full of circular saws...
I would be mad if my cousin kidnapped, took me to an island in mexico and told me that i had to live there for 15, after being stuck in a tiny room with saws
@@lillipton8838
After he just barely prevented her from killing 3 innocent guys.😂
@@ramigilneas9274 i would still feel mad if someone kidnapped me to an island lol
if i'm being honest, i agree heavily with all of the points she-hulk TRIES to make, but all it does is make surface level observations about feminist issues but doesn't address them in any meaningful way. i seriously consider myself a feminist even though i'm a man, and even after watching it with my feminist girlfriend, we *both* hate it. i seriously just feel like it isn't trying at all, it just wants people to look at it and say "look how progressive that show is!" without actually putting forth any effort.
what do you actually expect from the disney corporation? of course that's all they want
Im progressive as well and from what Ive seen this show just isn't for me and I just don't consider it of quality. For people who discover she hulk because of this show, good for them.
Agreed. Most shows that try to be progressive are usually pretty frustratingly shallow, which is a shame because it gives people who hate actual progressivism more excuses to do so.
Yeah the mistake the "anti-SJWs" make is thinking Disney actually agrees with liberals, when in fact it just knows they're a marketable demographic.
@@Ismael-kc3ry exactly! if the goal is to appease feminists, it fails because any point made is blatantly obvious since the observation was shallow as hell. if the goal is to convince non-feminists that the feminist mindset is correct, it fails because presenting an issue at its surface level and providing no substance helps nobody understand.
something I thought was interesting was to push back against the scene where she says she is better at controlling anger they list things like him being hunted by the government but like he wasn't controlling his anger at those times and being shot at by tanks is a perfectly acceptable moment to turn into a green ragemonster while in a lawyers office it is generally frowned upon
Yeah, I'd argue what Hulk went though are NOT anger.
Those are outright depressing.
Comparing what Bruce and Jennifer go through are apples and oranges.
I feel like people are forgetting that in-universe the original Avengers and Nick Fury are probably the only ones that know about Bruce trying to kill himself.
@@antonissa8345 yes but his entire family knows he was hunted by the government
Jen is a self center person who doesn’t control her s anger their I said
Totally agree with the problematic qoute about proving cap had sex before peggy. Cap losing his virginity to a random girl at a USO tour is very out of character especially since that event would have been set after his "I figured I would wait for the right partner" scene.
Who knows maybe Bruce invented the USO girl just so that Jen would leave him alone with that topic.
@@gulliverthegullible6667: true.
Although, Steve was on publicity tours for some time before actually joining the war. It's not unreasonable to assume he spent enough time with those girls to have briefly thought one of them might be his miss right, and so there doesn't have to be anything "random" about the hook up.
@@EmeralBookwise so he would have lied to Peggy Carter? That is certainly not his style.
This is probably just a plot hole. But we know that Steve didnt die a virgin because he travelled back in time to marry Peggy. Maybe Bruce didnt know that.
@@gulliverthegullible6667: To be clear, I was only stating that it could be true, not that I agree with it being so. I am much more inclined to believe Bruce was just making it up to get Jen off his back. As for whether Steve would "lie" to Peggy, it's been far too long since I sat down and watched that whole movie and so I won't offer any speculation on the context of specific scenes.
Regardless, I don't think it's worth taking overly serious to the point of accusing anything in She-Hul of being a plot hole in relation to the wider MCU, any more so than I would with Deadpool in relation the X-Men. Both are adjacent to their respective franchises, but take a far more exaggerated comedic approach.
@@EmeralBookwise But She-hulk is way more overtly connected than Deadpool
It’s really just a massive disappointment that a show with a female lawyer as the mc has writers that don’t bother researching the law. It just makes her look silly. Plenty of comedies like it’s always sunny in Philadelphia and the simpsons have actually included legal segments in their shows and actually made some criticism and humor out of our US legal system which isn’t perfect by any means. This means innacuraxy makes she hulk’s identity as a lawyer very difficult to take seriously and reinforces that she’s a complete joke until she gets hulk powers.
People who think hating toxic masculinity and patriarchy = hating men are really telling on themselves.
I've just started watching your videos and they are fire. Keep up the great work.
No man w biceps says "toxic masculinity"
You don't even understand how much it says abt you
Patriarchy doesnt exist. Its a stupid way to weight all wrongs in human kind on men.
You mean hating two imaginary things?
Also Can I say that She-Hulk has never been “Saving world” type. Like from the comics I have read she been more street superhero
I genuinely don't believe the majority of these people have ever read a comic book they just like to complain
@@BlueBeetle1939 Yeah it’s like complaining that Daredevil isn’t saving the world. He always been street level hero and shows a lack of knowledge
@@BlueBeetle1939 Also love your icon ❤
@@laragallahue7127 thank you it's the cover from the September 1944 issue Blue Beetle is a giant choking out a tiny h1tl3r
@@BlueBeetle1939 Awesome, I need to read more golden age Blue Beetle
She-Hulk has been uneven but since it really depends on the co-star- which the show outright lampshades- this is definitely by design. "You want Hulk? You want Abomination? You want Wong? Everyone loves Wong. No, you want Daredevil."
I do want Wong though
To be fair, I think the show did a pretty good job at having the co-stars actually add to the story. Bruce, Emil, and Matt all added to Jen’s arc in pretty impactful ways. Wong, not so much, but I overall liked it.
@@user-gw3bs2in5i Wong taught Jen than while Jen Walters may just be the junior lawyer in a major law firm, She-Hulk has some prestige just by being herself.
For example: Jen herself could never show up late but She-Hulk shows up whenever she shows up.
It's not a lesson she could have learned from any of the other guest stars... wow, everyone really does love Wong...
Is it an important lesson or even a good one? Important, yes, She-Hulk work needs to come before Jen work... there's one She-Hulk, the show literally showed her there's at least dozens of Jens... Good? There's a fine line between "I'm too busy for this" and "I'm too good for this".
The villains are filling that gap... you know... I'm getting the feeling this show may be really smart.
@@tskmaster3837 You’re absolutely right. I never thought about that.
Honestly, I think this show actually does have some pretty smart stuff in it.
@@tskmaster3837 that lesson sounds like the total opposite of the point Pillar is making
Thematically speaking, She-Hulk hates pervs, rapists, and shitheads, and these guys that feel attacked by that are really telling on themselves.
She hates them while being one of them. Allways speaking about captain america virginity and having pictures with his ass on her phone
Yep
Except the majority of male representation in this show is of pervs, rapists, and shitheads. Are you a male, and does that describe you? I thought representing matters, but now it...doesn't?
You folks need to make up your minds lol
This person literally knows nothing, And yea the reaction people were spot on She hulk is a character that lacks consequence, she hates cat calling but participates in twerking ( so your basically doing an activity that encourage the thing you demonize aka being a hypocrite ) She does not have the same rage issues as the hulk but claim she has better control and does it more frequently then him which is almost objectively false cause hulk lost black widow so no she hulk has no right to even say that cat calling so minut compared to the hulks experiences
@@xdrawesome314x4 you're a weirdo
Stop the rant, I'm a she hulk fan from the comics, this show is poorly written and it feels like someones Avenue to vent her anger instead of turning she hulk into a well built character like in the comics.
Prepare for his fans to gaslight you and call you misogynistic
She-Hulk fan since 1993. I love this show.
Unlike you these youtubers just wanna say woke to death. What's the need for that??
@@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722 You could always address the ones that aren't just saying woke to death and calling it bad writing. Instead of just focusing on Critical Drinker's click.
@@lProN00bl Yeah I was saying that over and over to the world but being the Critical Drinker's dog seems easier. This is exactly why I hate myself for joining extremists who hid behind something fake. I almost tore my family apart for being CD's braindead bitch until I was snapped out of it by keeping internet from me for 3 months
Even if you're right about the point of "the" scene being that difference, I would argue that the scene is badly executed, since it comes off as Jen telling Bruce her being cat called is worse than him struggling with self loathing, losing the woman he loved, suicide attempts etc.
Comes off like that to you, and other mostly male idiots, not to me or the person who made this video or the other guy who left a comment above mine. Self reflect about why that is
Most comments be like “while I don’t like the show, I respect your opinion and I’m glad you enjoy it” good job guys
And what exactly is the problem people are allowed to not like things
@@seyio1717 I never said that was a problem lol I’m literally praising ppl for respectfully disagreeing . Maybe you read my comment wrong?
@Miguel Garay you are ignoring context on whh that was controversial.
@Miguel Garay It was a general response to the people that didn't like reeva , mostly because they feared they would do a switch , like making her stealing the spotlight from obi . Werever the complain was reasonable or not , at least you can understand how that response from twt star wars can be percieved in a bad way .
The last couple episodes really helped tie everything together for me, it really showcases how she completely ignored all of Bruce's advice in Episode 1. The blood being taken, the pushing from outside sources (I.e. Intelligencia) to portray her as a monster and make her publicly rage out. Seeing a character on screen make poor decisions and be self-centered is jarring but rewarding once they begin to change.
I wish they had more entertaining moments in this show up until that point. Or at least some more Court scenes where Jen knew how to be an actual lawyer.
Having the character me and Eric and jackass in the beginning but grow and learn from the errors of their way later on in the show isn't a bad idea. But I feel like it's being poorly delivered.
The last time I think of a character who started off as a bit of an arrogance immature asshat would be a Ashoka Tano from Star wars the clone wars. At the beginning of the show people could stand her. But later on as the show progressed, she progressed. She grew as a character and grew on us. So when I go back to that show in season 1, there is some episodes that help you take a liking to her even when she still and Eric it's padawan. Like a drip feeds you the good parts of her as she learns and grows.
I don't feel like I really got that with jen. And when she does do that speech from that one scene, oh my God she sounded so f****** whiny.
, The way she talked to the hawk did it make me empathize with her. It made me want her to tell her to shut the f******. You ain't nobody special, most first world problems that I've ever first world. Especially as somebody who is poor, and is struggling right now since January to get a wisdom tooth pulled out that is actively swelling in my mouth and making it very difficult to talk, I just cannot stand her acting like she's such a f****** victim. People are mean to me at work. Talking to a guy who's literally been through a war. Listen by a guy who struggling to get proper healthcare. But oh the poor deer. Let me empathize with the person suffering the first world problem.
They want to tell the story about a woman suffrage, they may need to find somebody who could do it right. Who could write it better. And then this first world problem b*******. When I think of a woman who's going through some legitimate struggles I think of my own mother. Poor and living out of her van but still trying to keep her kids. Not me included because I am already an adult. But she's trying to keep legal custody of her kids. I think that would make a better story of a woman's suffrage then oh boo hoo, people mean to me at work. And the way she rented I just sounded so nonsensical. My sister didn't get murdered, by who? For what, where? Somebody's going to murder you at work because you know your expertise? I couldn't even comprehend that sentence I straight up went into dial-up mode.
I went into the show wanting to like this character. I really did. And I feel like they could still work with Jen's issues if they did a better job at set up and delivery. Same with the comedy. I know that's a little bit more subjective but still. The comedy feels so juvenile. And not enough fun I feel like a kid again juvenile. More like a trying too hard to be funny just to be liked juvenile.
A second chance when season 2 is out. But if season 3's first three episode does the same thing as season 1, make me drop the show instantly and just can't stand to watch any further then it doesn't even matter if she gets a redemption. I'm not going to sit through eight or nine s*** episodes to get to that one good one.
So far for me the only shows that I liked from Disney plus so far is Loki and Wandavision. Wanda was really growing on me. She was almost becoming my favorite MCU character. Then they did her dirty and multiverse madness and then it just kill the b**** off. There goes our chances of a season 2 to one of their are you interested in shows. To me at least.
@@HK47_115 You're allowed to swear on the internet, hun.
@@HK47_115 I mostly agree, though some of it gets lost in, what I'm assuming is speech to text, if so you may want to take a little bit more time to proofread your comments.
Jen needs one more episode to change last episode she tried to kill Daredevil so I don't know when that change is going to come to fruition but even if it does it won't matter because she tried to kill daredevil and she's a w
It’s funny that there was never such a huge pushback when they did this exact thing with Tony (the arrogant d bag to selfless hero arc)
The fact that these channels (the ones who say msheu) weren't even able to stand a character like Kate Bishop is beyond me, a girl who admires and respects a guy like Clint (a white OG avenger) is strong of an example to state they cant stand women being smart or competent in comic-book movies and shows..
This isnt true at all... in fact if kate bishop was any interesting, she wouldnt a bait and switch kinda character... which is what this shows have become... You can have smart female characters, but the constant need to diminish men in order to elevate the female character is ridiculous, and frankly very bad writing.
Where did Kate Bishop dimish Hawkeye ? Where did she either humiliate him or make any many strong character look incapable beside generic bad guys not being able to take her down physically. This show, out of all the Disney Plus shows, was probably the best and most respectful one to the predecessor of her character. And she isn't such a simple bait and switch as she still has a long way to go to be an adequate successor towards Hawkeye (male).
It's all about trying to drown out the "other" -- namely, the socially progressive / liberal / tolerant / inclusive (i.e.: the "woke") portion of the audience / population.
The simple fact is, the "anti-woke" (regressive / conservative / bigoted / exclusive) crowd can't win hands-down in a contest of total numbers -- even if the newer, younger successive generations of humanity didn't keep skewing more to the liberal left -- *and they know this*. Without the advantage of superior numbers, they must then resort to other means, such as raising their voices to such hysterical levels of zeal as to create the illusion of greater strength.
To paraphrase American author Robert Pirsig (from "Zen And The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"), the whole reason why the Jesuits became so (in)famous for their zealous efforts on behalf of the Vatican was not because the Catholic Church was rising in power, but precisely because the strength of the Church was falling under doubt -- due to the Protestant Reformation movement, then the Enlightenment. No one went running around while loudly shouting that the Sun moves around the Earth before the Copernican model gained popularity, because everyone already "knew" the Sun always moved around the Earth. Only when people began to seriously question this belief -- just like people began to earnestly challenge the supposedly ultimate, divinely mandated authority of the Vatican, did partisans of the Church begin to push back against a growing movement of opposition to their worldview....
These reactionaries are not expounding noble ideas in a vacuum. They see themselves as being in the midst of a holy war. That war is a struggle for the future mind of humanity. They are fighting that war with everything they've got ... & since the overall trend of society & simple reality are NOT on their side, the reactionaries must resort to dishonest tactics -- half-truths, misrepresentations, distortions & outright fabrications.
"You -- you *know* this? And yet you have no trouble with this?? What has become of the world? Is there no integrity? Do you do nothing each day, other than thinking of ways of taking lies and refining them, further and further, until they resemble truth?! It's no wonder you dread your workweek!" -- from the movie "Kate And Leopold"
@@knightheaven8992 The channels you've watching are hypocrites milking the same things over and over brainwashing you too just for cash. If they were on your side would let you think for yourself and not milk videos to death.
@@chriswilson7288funny that no one ever discusses the fact the no one asked for kate bishop 🤷🏿♂️
Most don't even know her.. like wtf
In fact many comic book readiers don't know abt her.. no one is, was checking for her
That makes her a bait and switch... riding Hawkeye's (male)
(idk why you did that but let me join you)🤣
Own "popularity" which wasn't that high to begin with
That show is the only disney thing I warched since the pandy
Mid and trash 3/10
I don’t think the series has the intent to be toxic or send a negative message to men, for me the main issue is more of how they adapt or write some scenes where it feels confusing, forced or lacking.
Seeing how rushed Marvel is making productions now a days, it wouldn’t be surprising that the people working behind the show couldn’t make multiple drafts, revisions and corrections to the narrative and script where it could’ve benefited. This also applies to the vfx team, where the show is also getting a lot of flack.
Yeah, we are talking about a product by how it is premiered and not what it could’ve been, but I still think the show tries to do things in good faith.
I think my big hiccup with the show other than the lacking execution is how much the characters feel like caricatures and not real people, comedy or not this is set in a world where I can suspend my disbelief for Ego The Living Planet more than I can most of the 'characters' and situations they're in, I know mileage may vary for that but still.
@@draykohunter6805 Yeah, I agree. Most comedies work because their characters show their flaws and they point that out well aware of what they're doing. Also, taking advantage of their medium is very creative way to show comedy.
Let's say they want to show a 4th wall break. In the comics, She-Hulk literally jumped from a panel to another just to get by quicker. A cool idea is to point out how a lot of the sets are just green screens and cgi and show Tatiana Maslany in a mocap suit telling the vfx team or editors to cut to the next scene otherwise a villain might get away or something.
@@AnglesSol That's actually a REALLY cool idea, but I wonder if it would be too experimental for the more formulaic MCU fans. I still hope they do that for future movies with She-Hulk.
Yeah, I think the MCU's trying to rush out too much in a whole year. Which is what the Marvel universe does and is fine for comic books but movies take a lot more work. I'm sure COVID didn't help but, at this point, the MCU needs to take a breather.
I disagree look up the stuff
With Jessica Gao & you
Will see that's exactly what
It is.
21:21 the issue most folks have is that's she's saying this to THE HULK.
She absolutely has not dealt with it more than him.
i like your take on the show in part 4. i didnt like her line. but i also knew that just because jen said somethig in-character doesnt mean that this is the writers using her as a mouth piece to project their own beliefs. so i waited until the show ends and to see if the writers actually gonna glorify her for saying this or will this bite her in the ass
the narrative repeatedly and consistently called jen out on her behavior.
1) she chose to condescent bruce's training about the anger control. and the show let bruce have his ''i told you so'' moment. both in episode 2 and episode 8
2) she embarrased dennis infront of the court room. but she did this to defend him against a woman who tries to con him and take his money by victimizing herself. and to help pug.
3) she tried to spice up her dating life by using her she-hulk persona. and the story chose not to reward her for this. her shallow attempt to get attention ended up with shallow results. she either ended up with bad dates or ended up as a bad date
4) in later episode she used her account and the guys she has dated to win her case against titania. she willingly embarrassed herself and the story showed yet again female characters arent above getting have fun or downright being the butts of the jokes.
she even later got wise/helpful life advices from 5 male characters who suppose to be evil. honestly i dont get how people even think that this show's prioritized to antagonized men or something.
honestly, the show can be entertaining, however it has so many narcissitic takes by the writers and creators it is honestly just irritaiting. People need to be observed for quality standards and plot as well. HOW CAN YOU NAIL IRONMAN YET FAIL AT SHE HULK??? makes no sense.
My thought on anger control Jen vs. Bruce:
The commenters you were reacting to, and you yourself, were taking the scene to be Jen arguing her control as a Hulk was better than Bruce's as a Hulk with a decade's experience of keeping and losing control. That's wasn't her argument at all.
Jen was comparing her pre-Hulk control to Bruce's pre-Hulk control. That, upon becoming a Hulk, he had to learn a lot more than she did. That her experience as a normal translated better to being a Hulk than Bruce's as a normal had. That many of the lessons that he was trying to teach her, she had already learned as a normal.
And the characterization-both within the series and the source comics-backs that up. She did regain her human intelligence in Hulk-form almost immediately; Bruce took a decade. She had the ability to force or repress her transformation at will almost immediately; Bruce took years.
I don't disagree with this at all. I could have been DELIVERED better though. Naturally not having the physical strength to overpower someone else kind of as a rule, one would tend to quell one's anger and search for peaceful solutions and it's likely that Jen has had more (no, not infinitely) practice doing just that BEFORE she became a Hulk. Bruce had a lot to deal with before, and after he became the Hulk, and he didn't always choose the best way, not for lack of trying.
That makes perfect sense. If Bruce wasn't a pretty Zen guy before becoming a Hulk then that would translate to his life as a full. But pre-hulk Jen had to deal with everyday annoyances that took required regular emotional regulation and that includes being a lawyer. Lawyers are generally not supposed to get pissed during court even if they're infuriated by the judge or opposition.
You hate She-Hulk because you think it's woke. I hate She-Hulk because I think it's bad. We are not the same.
based..?
exactly my thoughts lmfao
Based. Absolute W.
Same bruh.
Yup
Yesterday while watching a clip of last episode's ending scene, I saw a bunch of comments claiming that the masked incel guys are a reference to Doomcock, that Disney put him in the show because they're so obsessed and scared of him.
This is the level of confident delusion we're dealing with here.
Must be a joke made by them probably
Also I like to point out they stole those mask from squid games.
I understand the point you're trying to make on episode 1 with the scene about Jen controlling her anger. The problem with that scene is she speaking to the wrong person about it . If it was any other character in the series that's okay. But hey tell that to the guy who put a gun in his mouth and get chased by the government and lost most of his friends. Also wrestle different personality within him She hulk doesn't hate men but the writers do
Thats BS. All of Bruce problems are Hulk related, which are all his own fault. He doesnt deal with problems that Real people deal with. You're pretending like he's peter parker, someone who has a shitty life as a person and then has to deal with a shittier life as a hero. Stop babying Bruce
@@Flipitmixit how am I babying him and I'm just laying out the example what actually happened to him you can't get mad at the facts. You said he didn't deal with his problems. Tell me is that other personality controlling him now. It almost seems like he's in perfect control of his hulk powers 🤔. Back to what I was saying I'm just saying is he just went through more then she hulk not saying he's the biggest tragedy in the MCU. And one last fact Black widow and Ironman dying are not hulk related problems and Steve wasn't either they did it by their own choices.
@@lamar9616 I didnt say he didnt deal with his problems, I said he didnt deal with problems that real people deal with. He deals with problems related to him being the hulk. And yes that includes black widow amd iron man dying, cause those are Avengers from his life as the Hulk. Who turned him into the Hulk? She Hulk was saying she been dealing with anger issues Before becoming a Hulk
@@Flipitmixit 1. Did you just say that it’s his fault he got caught up in a nuclear explosion, being out of control of his body while his hulk side goes around killing innocent civilians, trying to commit suicide for the sake of others and himself, and being hunted down by the government because the world perceives him as a monster?
@@Flipitmixit 2. She specifically says “I deal with anger better than you” which is undermining his trauma in so many levels. She’s comparing being catcalled to all the examples I’ve listed above, and saying she’s better… please actually do more research.
I love how they never talk about the actual quality of the show.
They complain about the CGI and “bad male representation” (because, as you know, female representation has always been *top* notch) and take that to mean that the show is unequivocally bad.
Actually they do. If you watched the full videos, instead of just the headline then you'd know
@@danielmwale5789 Exactly
@@danielmwale5789 That would require people like islaygoblins8364 to actually put effort into their criticisms instead of just making strawman arguments and assumptions
@daniel mwale Pretty much sums up the "anti-anti-woke" ecosystem nowadays. People aren't allowed to dislike movies and shows anymore, they have to be corrected about how She-Hulk is actually ok, because...ya know...reasons.
The part when Sydney says “I don’t know any women who actually enjoys this” I was like “… my mom enjoys this”
Good for your mom. 90% of people don't.
@@jeremyusreevu237 thx, she's a big fan of the mcu since the first iron man movie
@@jeremyusreevu237 How would an insulated dork like you know that?
Sydney gives me "I'm not like other girls, I only hang out with boys" vibes, so that's probably why she doesn't know any women who like it lmao
@@rubydown3329 She's exactly like other girls. Of course she says the nonsense just to further her goal of a Feminist conspiracy, which started with poor argumentation of course.
You know, repositioning the first episode to episode 8 does change the context of 'I control my anger infinitely more than you' in a really telling way, when you think about it. If the original intent was that her popping off at the gala was intended to come directly after a flashback where she made that statement, her flawed interpretation of her being able to control Hulk anger vs. everyday anger would have been immediately challenged, rather than the hateclick brigade stewing on it all this time. That said, I don't think I'd have personally stuck around if episodes 2-4 were episodes 1-3 because they were definitely the weaker episodes, so I can see why they moved it.
Re. Cap and the 'he lost his virginity' thing being aphobic it also smacks of ableism imo. Yeah girls weren't 'lining up to dance with him', which first of all 'dance' and 'right partner' it's up to you whether you interpret that as relationships or virginity that he's talking about, right? but that doesn't mean he didn't get any action when he was little Steve, and I guess what I find frustrating about what the show proposes isn't just it spitefully eradicating the demiromantic read for him (i.e. he's waiting for the right partner), but also suggesting he wasn't dtf until he had Chris Evans' bod because he was sexually repulsive or something, which is a whole big yikes.
I feel it comes off as so crass because while it's okay for us to discuss a fictional character's virginity in the real world, this isn't just some celebrity to her but her cousin's recently deceased (so far as she knows) friend and colleague, and it just comes off as really gross because of that rather than just playful thirst stuff. Girls can be thirsty, and I appreciated them showing that aspect in some degree, but the motives are projected on the character (as you show in the quote from the author) and therefore just kind of cringe all round.
You said it perfectly, there are some lines in here that don't make sense to be said in universe and took me out as a result.
@Miguel Garay Nah I cringed at that too, but I think my instinctual reaction to both is based on being slightly too old and out of touch for the demographic? I'm a woman ftr and I'm all for the sex positivity and body positivity stuff, so I get why it's there and I get what it's reflecting, but I've never really been that into the whole nebulous celebrity culture stuff. Let's just say It took me way too long to work out Paris Hilton was an actual person and not a place, and Megan Thee Stallion/twerking/aggressive tik tok make up influencers/fancams of Jensen Ackles adjusting his dick in public are all way outside of the kind of stuff I'm interested in. But that's fine. If someone else likes it that's okay with me. I don't expect every joke and thing to cater to me specifically.
Thank you for the Re:Cap comment. Finally someone else got how disrespectful Jen was. Also to Bruce about his grief over Tony. He’s trying to talk about his trauma and all she cares about his friends sex life. It’s disgusting. How anyone liked her after that astounds me.
@Miguel Garay In the car ride before the accident and again later at the bar. The camera even focuses on where Bruce and Tony carved their initials into the bar top while Jen is going on (about Steve’s ass I think.)
This is why it really rubbed me the wrong way too. It was inappropriate within the context of the world.
And one of her rants was basically about how she was good at controlling her anger because of how she was subject to misogyny and objectification, but also proceeds to pester her cousin about his dead (as far as she knows) friend's sexual history.
I watched this show without any knowledge about the drama and without a mindset that it is "woke" but still the writing is absolutely terrible ....if u consider the actual quality of this show ..it is bad....
THE WRITER LITERALLY CAME OUT AND SAID IT WAS MADE TO TROLL THE TROLLS LMAOOOOOOOOO
As someone who is a former member of the said Anti-Woke group of people, I was dragged into it just like you said I watched video and then for the next two years of my life I become a follower of this type of mindset believing that in the things they said on a daily run through. This caused problems between me, my friends and my family because I become a dick and just a horrible person to be around, but one day I realized what I was doing and decided to improve myself and since then I have become a better person who tries her best not to judge shows on first eps or just because "ANTI-WOKE, OMG STOP PUTTING THIS SHIT INTO MY SHOWS!" or the amazing thing they spam in comments "Go Woke, Go Broke" but watching you and many others make me happy that I got myself out of that mindset and on the road to improvement, so thank you for making this video as I felt like having the opinion I did on She-Hulk put me in danger of just being flamed and I just can't deal with that.
PS. Sorry for the shitty grammer.
Im sorry but if the people around you made you feel like an outcast or a dick for not following the social norm and being “politically correct” all the time then they were the problem not you. And I’m not looking for an argument or trying to knock you, there are always 2 sides of the coin
Dude it still doesn't Justify the Poor Execution of The Show
Good for you but this show is written by an angry radical Feminists
Hearing stuff like this makes my heart happy. I have so much respect for people who not only are able to self evaluate, but also openly admit to their past mistakes. I have my own past flaws and let's be real ones I have now too, but I'm far to ashamed to admit them. You may not be perfect, but you're doing you're best and that's all any of us can do.
Would you say these influencers influenced you? I'm asking out of curiosity based upon the human mind and what things can do to people. Such as influencing them in their lives. If things can influence people so easily and turn us into people who we really aren't, then it is true that we as an individual look to society to see how we are meant to act or behave if you will. Perhaps some things should be far away from people if it is indeed hurting peoples lives. People will not stop consuming or being influenced by others so perhaps we must know the consequences of others actions and realize that it affects everyone's life. Such as rap and being unlawful if you will.
The main problem for me was she hulk was basically a toxic male but as woman sometimes. We can't tell men not to do things then create a double standard and tell people its ok if women do it
Can't women be toxic?
@@albertbecerra yeah that's my whole point tho. But she specifically was showing all the traits people always call toxic masculinity and I was essentially trying to say that people take those traits we call toxic on men put them on women then call it feminism or strong female lead
@@chyarnation girl boss is the term you're looking for 😏
When did she acted like that?
It's really terrible how this is so profitable, the fact so much demand is created by these things makes me feel something is really wrong with people themselves
You can't tell people what they can and can't like
Your comment pretty much applies to the entirety of the far-right outrage machine.
Exactly, it’s fascinating how profitable it is to defend bad products of billion dollar companies.
@@thomascheckie2394 what about Far Left Outrage
@@seyio1717 Oh there's plenty of that too but it's the far right outrage that's gaining all the attention. The "I am rubber you are glue" defence doesn't apply if both sides are rubber. I support everything that is said in this video but i've also seen people who are pretty much about as accepting and understanding of differences as you can get suddenly be accused of discrimination and even receive death threats just because they said something that can be misconstrued as discrimination even though it really isn't. Overreaction is a trait that doesn't care if you're left or right.
I stopped watching she-hulk after how they ended the first episode. That Steve rogers virginity bit really rubbed me the wrong way. But I loved the scene where the gals at the bar immediately statt taking care of her in an act of compassion and solidarity without even needing the full story. That part genuinely made me feel emotional. It was the most honest, genuine, and relatable sequence from that whole episode.
I totally recommend going back and watching the whole show, yes it’s a raunchy line but it’s a one off between two ppl who are drinking. The show is really good I couldn’t recommend it enough if you wanna get a feel for life on MCU earth
The only way a person can come away with an "anti-man" message is if they think the toxic things some of the male characters do is actually correct, and necessary to masculinity. And, of course, if they think women/fem-presenting struggles are made up.
Not to mention how many "arguments" against Jen's characterization are either literal lies, or hinge upon misunderstanding events & conversations.
It really bothers me that a ton of people are upset that cat calling was highlighted as in fact being bad. That is actually kind of sad and depressing on so many levels its not funny.
Well, all of the men in the show are portrayed as evil or incompetent caricatures… and the only guy who seems to be nice makes me question how he managed to become a lawyer because he seems to be a little bit slow.😅
But then again… all of the women are also portrayed as self absorbed narcissistic losers… so I definitely wouldn’t call the show "anti men“ when all of the female characters are the worst negative stereotypes imaginable.
The She Hulk show is Just reinforcing Misogyny rather than tackling it
@@seyio1717 Thats an interesting criticism. Could you elaborate?
@@jazzmazz9214 and we never heard from him again 😂
Can I point out that I found it extremely irritating when she assumed that she had it worse than him because some men chose to cat call her or ‘mansplain’ to her when Bruce had to spend most of his childhood with an abusive father, spend 15 years on the run from the US Military, he also spend those trying to live with the hulk and even tried to commit suicide but the hulk wouldn’t let him. I think all of that is worse than what Jen described and the way she said ‘I do it infinity more than you’ just left a sour taste in my mouth.
Furthermore when Bruce was telling her to control his anger, he wasn’t doing it so he could ‘mansplain’ to her: it was because he was a hulk for over 15 years and he caused lots of destruction because he couldn’t control his anger (before he became smart hulk of course), so he actually had legitimate reason to have this concern.
None of that childhood trauma is canon yet to the MCU and even if it was we have no reason to assume Jen knows about it. Often it's all represed memories for Bruce himself. And yet, all this is irrelevant because the whole point of the episode was that Jen was wrong, both her and Bruce should have listened to eachother and not make assumptions about the other's life.
@@GiubileiFernando the woke mind virus truly is a mental illness.
Jen’s initial reluctance to embrace her powers and become a superhero is also a reflection of the way the women were initially excluded from the “Hero’s Journey”. According to Campbell, women couldn’t BE the Hero. They had to settle for a supporting role in a male hero’s story. Or worse, they were the prize at the end.
Jen, like Bruce, didn’t seek her powers. But Bruce didn’t become a hero because it was the “right thing to do”. It was because he had no other way of gaining control of the Hulk. He had a responsibility to minimise the damage the Hulk did, and the best way to do that was to join the Avengers and get access to Tony Stark, his tech, and his infinite resources.
Jen is ALREADY in control. She doesn’t need to be an Avenger to gain control over her big green alter. Unlike Bruce, Jen HAS a choice. The whole point of the series is how Jen CHOOSES to become a hero.
Bruce didn't become a hero because he needed to either. Bruce chooses to do good because it's the right thing to do on a regular basis. The Incredible Hulk is about him learning how to use the hulk for good instead of fearing it.
Also, I'm genuinely not sure what you mean by your first 4 sentences. If you're saying that Jen rejecting her powers is symbolic of Jen reflecting the hero's journey, hate to break it to you but the hero initially rejecting the call to adventure is PART of the hero's journey.
@@moppermop5287 Bruce does what’s right NOW because he’s been an Avenger for years at this point, but he didn’t at first. He initially sought to keep his head low and practice meditation to keep his anger in check.
As to your second point, yeah, I just sort of let the initial point about the Hero’s Journey drop because I had to finish my comment and go do something.
I am aware that Refusing the Call to Adventure is a stage of the Hero’s Journey. I used to teach a course on it. But I am also aware of the feminist critique of Campbell that he excluded women from the Monomyth, which is true. Actually, I do think that Jen is on a Hero’s Journey, but that the series only covers the first few stages. Jen has basically been auditioning Mentors through the whole series. It’s only with Daredevil that I think she found someone who could speak to her specific dilemma. Matt is proof that she doesn’t have to choose between being a lawyer and being a hero. As Matt points out, She-Hulk can help people when the law fails them.
Channel name fits
This didn’t really hold up very well after the last episode….
All the more proof the woke are on the wrong side of history тм.
"And given the justification the writers have given, comes across borderline aphobic."
This is an awesome video, but thank you for this bit in particular. The show's treatment of Cap's virginity was weird (to say the least) and the audience reaction to it was even worse to watch, so I'm glad to hear someone say this.
@Miguel Garay the undertone is that it would be pathetic if Cap would have died a virgin, without considering that maybe he wasn t interested in sex. I agree that this could be construed as aphobic, but if we all have to be that polifically correct, it would get hard to say anything.
@Miguel Garay I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't necessarily call the jokes aphobic, in and of themselves. It's more microaggression sort of territory and indicative of shitty attitudes not uncommon in our culture. One of the lines was, "That ass did not deserve to die a virgin. That's, like, so sad." But, why? Why is that to be pitied? Why is it bad to not prioritize sex or just straight up not want it at all? Not to mention the fact that in Steve's particular case, the dude's been through hell and his sex life, or lack thereof, is the least of his issues or things worth feeling sad about.
That said, again, these attitudes and jokes are common. Bothersome, but common. I also wouldn't think the jokes on their own indicate anything about the writers, buuuut then we get to the head writer claiming that addressing Steve's virginity "was the prime directive of my life." (And yes, I get that this is likely hyperbole and a joke, but there's truth in every joke.) Why treat his possible virgin as a some problem to be solved and one she's "so happy and proud" to have ""fixed"" or whatever? Even taking the ace factor out of this, it's really weird to be that seemingly bothered by the notion that a character could've been a virgin that it takes up that much space in the episode. And to what end? Especially since this ~reveal~ does not jive with the Steve we're shown on screen, a guy who wouldn't even _dance_ with anyone other than "the right partner" and wouldn't even give Sam (who went to Peggy's funeral with him) many details about his life with Peggy. It's all so needless.
The bottomline is that a show that wants to celebrate Jen's sexuality and the choices she makes with her own body, should not shame Steve because he might've made different choices with his.
@@findtheeyes: yikes, I did not know all that behind the scenes stuff. I'll admit the gag always seemed a little forced to me, but I rolled with it as an extension of Jen's character, especially since as we see later in the show she is clearly both sexually motivated and also frustrated with a lack of sex in her own life, so I saw her making presumptions about Steve as more a case of projecting. After all, Steve isn't even a character in this show, but Jen is the MAIN character, and so anything she talks about should mostly be there to establish what kind of person she is.
Steve was a virgin during WW2. This was more so an example of doing this for the sake of comedy rather the. What actually made sense. Steve is a 1 woman kind of guy. And threw out all of WW2 his thoughts were on Peggy Carter. He literally is the text book boy scout of marvel. But they wanted to throw that out for the sake of making a joke out of him
The show is a comedy it was meant to be a joke you’re seriously going to get your panties in a bunch?
You gave me a new perspective, but I still think the show is trash. The quality is just terrible, the jokes are not funny and the CGI is laughable.
Yo Bless who ever captioned this🙏Thank u Fr cuz my dad is almost 80% deaf & i really wanted to show him one of these videos cuz a few were idiots online were starting to lean him to the dark side when he was already enjoying the show with our fam☠️🙉but lmao if yall could give me pointers on how to edit the captions that would be great cuz they b a lil off😅
She hulk twerking is a cinematic masterpiece enjoyed by all ages, heres why
LOL
You ever worry that when we write things like this it's only ever watched by people that agree with the premise of the video already?
I suppose we could argue that videos like this help those that are already struggling to talk to their community about these issues, giving them a clearer line of debate, etc.
Ultimately when it comes to people changing their minds I do think its more about being near people that'll set you on the right path, good communities raise good behaviour, etc etc.
Nah I have changed alot myself I use to be woke you then I became an anti woke weirdo but then I noticed they were worst then the woke and attacking black people and I was like yea I'm out now I'm just me in the middle politics was the same for me until you see how stupid it is
Given that the "She Hulk Woke Garbage! WORST MARVEL SHOW" videos are coming in droves basing most of their criticism on flat out wrong info, I don't mind having some videos like this to balance things out.
@@epicbruhmoment6985 yeah that's true, think he says similar in the video. I wonder if we'll ever see accountability from social media sites for how their algorithms encourage the negative more than the positive.
Nah I disagree and I still wholeheartedly disagree lol. I think it's one of the most sexist and overall terrible shows to ever air by a major corporation, and I think the creator of this video overlooked so much here
I will say, it seems like the show hates women too (in a more subtextual way), not just men, but considering the main character is a Mary Sue I wouldn't say it's AS hateful towards women as it is towards men
@@JacobGrim Poe's Law is doing some work today.
Bros pissing off all the right people with his videos
i know and im here for it
After watching episode 8 I can definetly see why that was supposed to be the original first episode but ultimately I'm pretty glad for the build up of she hulks first costume and hero team up with daredevil very entertaining stuff
No it's episode 1 that wasn't supposed to come until episode 8. Or more specifically the Hulk origin stuff. So the show would have opened with the scene where Jen fights Titania in the courtroon and then went straight into what we currently know as episode 2. Then after what is currently episode 8 and would have been episode 7 we have then for that episode 8 cut back to her origin and gained context both for how this or started but also for how Bruce warned her.
yikes then I guess you were disappointed in the finale
I honestly don't really care if she does hate men or if she's toxic anymore. The show just isn't a good lawyer, comedy, or superhero product. The main character is "she hulk" as much as black widow's "taskmaster" was taskmaster. Tatiana is the best actor in the show and episode 8 is the best in the whole show, but that's as much praise as it'll get from me. I'm ready for this thing to die and never talked about again like Thor the dark world or the other MCU shows (not saying they're bad, but they stopped being important after it ended).
I honestly think that she-hulk could have leaned more into the fun quirky superhuman cases. I really liked the Light-elf scam case and the case about the misuse of magic, they were funny and interesting to me. But the copyright case, the wedding episode and even the retreat were honestly very boring, to me at least.
They could have done it like Brooklyn 99 focusing the episodes on comedy and reserving 1 or 2 episodes to dwell deeper into the issues that it clearly wants to address. (For example in B99, the episode Moo Moo)
There are legitimate reasons to not like this show (As an example, I don’t like the 4th wall breaking, it feels like lazy writing that the writers use to reintroduce its characters or defend their writing decisions)
But general I feel like saying the show absolutely hates men isn’t true when Pug, Daredevil, Bruce, Luke Jacobson, Abomination, etc. all exist within the show
3 of those 4 examples are proof that the show does hate men
@@nathanieldiaz5254 Which example doesn’t?
It absolutely hates men, as long as they aren't main characters
@@Wade_N I don’t hate the fact that it’s there, I just think it’s funnier in the Deadpool movies, because Deadpool is actually making fun of something like how confusing the Fox timeline is or how the studio couldn’t afford the other X-Men, but in She-Hulk it’s being used to point out basic things like “Look we’re connecting the A & B plots together!” But that’s not a joke, it’s just pointing out the obvious
Okay, but they made Abomination terrible. You can’t convince me this isn’t an act of feminism propaganda.
20:58 as a Star Wars fan I take offense at that metaphor; the clone army in Star Wars was physically brainwashed and had no way to fight against its instinctive behaviour.
fair
Why does this channel hate the critical drinker? Jealousy
Clout-chasing.
I don't know why but ever since phase 4 started it seems like the quality of critique in the MCU has gone down substantially to the point where people will make hour long video essays that just don't make sense if you actually pay attention the media they're critiquing and talk in the most pretentious and obnoxious way possible while acting as if their opinion is just common sense or the "right" one.
It's because the individuals getting the most attention right now have an agenda to push, and they won't let the reality of what they are "critiquing" get in the way.
The average quality of content went down just far enough to where it's a lot easier to pull people into these wild fantasies without any strong basis.
@@Whispernyan saying it's not strong basis is pretty invalid
@@seyio1717 and saying there is a strong basis is somehow more valid?
Phase 4 has had a lot more nuance and diversity. Couldn't possibly be related >->...
Here's the thing. Even if they did not intend it to be like what everyone is saying... It comes off as it is to the general people. If we remove all the criticizers on CZcams, twitter or wherever else who make a living talking about it, including you, it is a pretty clear for the general consensus that this iteration of She-Hulk and the show made around her is... in general opinion... hates men, woke, a mary sue, and has toxic feminism. I, for one, do not agree that the show "hates men" but I do believe that it is full of toxic feminism and a lot of people, pages, and publishers who have proven time and time again to be toxic feminists support the show so it is hard for me to change my view regarding this part.
So yeah, IF they did not mean all of it and as you said mean otherwise... then it is clear the showrunners and writers FAILED in sending the message. Just know that even females I know feel that the show went too far in most of the scenes being criticized by those content creators.
She-hulk in the comics has always been loved even in her darkest storylines and she has always been a girl-boss, inspiring both men and women alike. INCLUDING being mistreated by men and written properly to the point that EVEN MEN feel ashamed that there are men who do such things. Stories WITHOUT having the need to assassinate the character and competency of other male characters.
Why then was Super-girl, a DC and CW show which has suffered from bad writing and bad cgi not criticized for the same things She-hulk did? There was feminism there as well, a female lead with superpowers and a cousin who has the same superpowers but MALE. Familiar?
Why were they so received differently? Why did I enjoy Supergirl Season 1 while not enjoying She-hulk at all? Why did my female friends feel the same? Were all the scenes and episodes bad? NO! And IF Disney hasn't done the things they did in the recent years, then maybe a lot of people would give this show a pass... but reality is, if there was another Disney show after the Little mermaid that shows just a little bit of pandering rather than focusing on writing a good story, then expect even more backlash from those content creators you mentioned, and more people will dump hate on it. Just know that if the Little Mermaid hate was because of Racism only, then look at Encanto, A DISNEY MOVIE, with a FEMALE LEAD, NOT CIS-WHITE and the most favorite character of the populace was the muscular Luisa, who is pretty much like Jen in her She-hulk form. Just that example alone breaks everything about Jen's character in the show. WHY? BECAUSE IT HAD GOOD WRITING.
If it was only the critics on youtube who said the things you are saying are wrong... then maybe I'd believe you. Now you are saying these content creators are talking about it because they want to make money... Why not? You are doing the same, aren't you? So does Disney and marvel.
Now let's talk about "The Scene"... IF SHE DID have worse experiences that made her control her anger as she said... she would have blurted out harsher examples rather than being catcalled on the street or being undermined in her job by men. Not to mention that just in that moment when she said she was controlling her anger "Infinitely more than" Bruce, that scene clearly was intended to be a signal to the viewers that she was trying to convince herself more than her trying to convince Bruce. But it didn't have to be written that way. That scene didn't need to exist at all. A agree 100%. But it was and it does.
So while Episode 8 kind of "Fixed" a lot of things, how the early episodes handled things set the story in stone to be an example of wokeism and toxic feminism. You can't just go and say: "Hey watch She-Hulk, just ignore everything that happens before Episode 8." now, can you?
In other words... if the story is properly written, who cares if there is feminism or wokeism in it? You don't see those same content creators dumping on Encanto or Arcane, another show with female leads and yes, it has wokeism and feminism in it as well.
You can try to defend the show for what it was meant to talk about... but how it was received is how it was portrayed by the writers. Those content creators? They were just adding fuel to the fire that already existed.
Dont bother, he will never answer to real criticism. He literally refuse to admit that anything can be wrong from the entertainment industry is side and intentionally ignores their toxicity.
Watch somebody here reply to your comment by calling you a misogynist without even reading your whole comment💀
@@angryhead7728 Wouldn't have made a comment if I would be hurt about that.
24:23 Yes, Banners childhood trauma may not exist, but I would argue that it has it existed in MOST if not all of his comic book incarnation. I mean, you kinda of need the childhood trauma if Devil Hulk is a thing that the MCU plans on using. Also, I think the MCU has referenced or at least hinted at Banner's complicated relationship he has with his father, but they obviously couldn't go deeper because of the whole rights issue with Universal.
IDK, jen not having "the other guy" leads me to believe the Hulk is a result of preexisting trauma given literal form due to gamma exposure on unique DNA rather than a whole cloth creation of said exposure.
@@pathevermore3683 That seems to make the most sense.
Just because other iterations has the drama, does not mean this specific one will.
Take Ancient One being female here, or Thanos doing things for the better of the universe for example.
@@diinouhothead9362 "Just because other iterations has the drama, does not mean this specific one will."
But that doesn't mean it shouldn't, what reason is there not to address Banner's childhood trauma? Especially given the storytelling possibilities.
"Take Ancient One being female here, or Thanos doing things for the better of the universe for example."
Creative liberties are one thing but neglecting fundamental character elements is another.
@@realityshifter3399 Thanos' change isn't just taking creative liberties a core part of his backstory was radically changed.
You're fighting generalizations with generalizations.
Instead of attacking the half baked arguments of alt right trolls it would have been more productive to ponder why people outside these circles seem to have issues with the show
I'm happy I watched this video, but I do have a couple issues with it. 1. It feels like a significant portion of the vid was dedicated to simply insulting the critics of She Hulk, and insulting people who watch their videos, without any form of empathy as to why that sort of community has grown in recent years. It's more than just mindless hate. Blaming people for being bigots and not "just looking around" doesn't help, just further pushes people into their views. 2. [I'll edit and expand on this later if I've got time, but basically, marvel shows/movies with male leads very rarely show the bad experiences men have with women in day to day life, but it's pretty much a staple when there's a female lead. Which is why it feels like marvels pushing a "men bad" narrative with shows/movies like she hulk and captain marvel. It echoes how society offers understanding and support when women have issues with men, but generally ignores and victim-blames men for any issues they might have with women.]
Exactly 💯 Damn that's a Good Point!
Thank you so much for mentioning the Cap stuff seeming a little aphobic! I'm a person who is asexual but not aromantic and is in a happy relationship, so to have Cap shown to have lived a fulfilling life with romantic desires in spite of a lack of sex felt really nice and like a potential bit of unexpected representation from one of my favorite characters in the MCU... until the end scene gleefully shot that down. I understand that it's clearly not the angle they were going for, but I felt a little let down and having someone from an outside perspective call out the sort of "at the end of the day everybody wants sex" narrative was really validating! Thank you for a great vid, looking forward to more!
I wish this show featuring another superhero lawyer actually had more of this lawyer being a lawyer. And had writers that know how to write a court scene.
Overlook criticism has been making my eyes roll to the back of my skull since Wanda vision. I thought that show was good. Though it had some total problems with trying to make sword look like the bad guy. Or at least the main agent of sword. When you really look at it he was a good guy. But some scenes had a confusing tone cuz of the music. And it felt a bit rushed at the end. And they did Wanda so dirty and multiverse madness. Plus that was the doctor strange film and it's acting like a conclusion to Wanda vision.
There are plenty of reasons to like and dislike everything in face for. I just wish people would stop defending these films like they're perfect or giving b******* broken criticism and just straight up acting like some scenes and actions didn't happen within the show or film that progressed the story. Acting like oh this random action in this end just happened out of nowhere it doesn't make any sense. Because it totally wasn't set up in the previous scene that you're totally ignoring in this b******* ass "woke" review.
I'm a guy who likes to binge on video essays a lot. And I like to hear many diverse opinions. But boy does it annoy the hell out of me when people give unfair broken criticism or defend the film or media as if it did no wrong. If it's not one extreme end of the spectrum it's the other.
So the first episode I kind of liked the scene outside the bar after the accident, it's something that happens, and most likely if Jen hadn't hulked out they would have assaulted her that's my feeling anyway. Also if I remember correctly in the comics she did have control over her powers from the jump.
I agree with you, but I disagree with your take on "the scene". As a guy... given a very feminine guy. I am diagnosed with a lot of issues including being on the spectrum, and the anger issues I had when I was younger were very out of control. I always thought of the Hulk as symbolism for being on the spectrum, what would usually result in minor anger would turn into what other people saw as a monster, and on an emotional level I related to Hulk as people had once seen me as a monster (given, not all people on the spectrum have the same reactions). But like him, I worked hammer and nail to manage my emotions and be the master of how people see me. To have someone be entitled, and tell me to my face that their struggles are worse than mine, while I had been a monster to the public eye and unknowingly rip apart towns out of anger... I'd be more than upset. It just doesnt work with the Hulk, any other random guy in the show maybe... but not the Hulk. But I do love the show, and i think most of the critique is silly for such a fun show.
Yeah I wonder how much of Jenn's supposed "women handle stress better" attitude is steeped in neurotypical privilege as well. This perspective is not one I've seen really brought up before. Hell instead of all this garbage "woke agenda" brand of "criticism" that's currently choking the internet's discussion of the show, maybe the show actually does deserve to be critiqued under the lens of neurodivergent scrutiny.
Hell for all we know, the show is actually guilty of ableism (I'm pitching a possibility for investigation, not prescribing that it IS guilty in my one, limited analysis comment) with how Jenn is basically going on an self aggrandizing rant to paint herself as better than her cousin when the struggles aren't even comparable, or would be handled differently by people on vs off the spectrum, regardless of gender.
Also want to say, same. Hulk means a lot to me for similar reasons.
At this point I just feel bad for u dude defending this trash while the writer themself stated it's to troll the trolls
It's a ego thing. They like the show, and woe to anyone who doesn't.
30:00😮Holly sh*t✨the editing throughout this whole section or bit & how you used so many of the expressions & even micro-expressions directed within almost just this 1 single scene alone to convey the delivery & tone of your own voice throughout this bit, just makes me appreciate the show’s attention to detail & micro-expressions, ~( & the VFX artists & art-directors responsible for all this )~ so much more than i’d ever thought i could for such an already solidly-complex scene🙏💚
ik i’ve said the following like 10 times today already, but bless ur soul for this video man🙏seriously🫵u deserve much more praise 4 ur own efforts, explanations, observations, & outside-the-box use of those observations👏👏👏
Simp more, dog
So, in the spirit of discussion I'm going to lay out my biases before any talking points in this comment. I haven't seen the show, nor do I intend to. Not really a fan of Marvel content in general, for that matter. Most of my exposure to the show comes from The Critical Drinker, whose opinions I generally agree with, and who I find has similar values when it comes to character and story writing as I do. Naturally, that means a lot of my exposure to this show has been negative, and going into this video I fully expect to find examples of good quality writing and characterisation existing in the show itself. I also believe that a show (or any piece of media for that matter) should stand and be judged on the merits of what is presented, not on any potential 'what if's or audience interpretations, so I'm going to dismiss out of hand any point along the lines of 'this piece of dialogue doesn't properly convey what the character meant, if it was changed a little it would be more clear,' because if that's the case, it should have been changed in editing before the show went live. That being said, I'm now going to watch the video, and if a point comes up that I disagree with, I'll address it below. If I don't address a particular point, you can correctly assume I either agree with the point, consider it a matter of personal preference, or don't feel strongly enough about the point to want to address it.
~4:00 - the women coming to help Jen. My main issue here is nobody stops to assess the situation or call for further assistance, they just assume they know the situation and decide to give her a makeover. Always happy to see people stepping up to help other people, but if you're jumping to the assumption that she's been the victim of abuse, there's bigger issues than her looks.
~5:30 - this is more a point on media production in general than She-Hulk in specific, but yes, your first impression is extremely important. You can't exactly dismiss out of hand the idea that people will assume that a show will go on much the same way that it started, and creators of all stripes are aware of that. Again, more a point on creative work in general, than She-Hulk specifically.
~6:55 - were there really no examples you could find of a cohesive argument? I agree that the criticism you've chosen isn't a very good one because Jen isn't trying to be a superhero, nor is this a superhero show, it's a false equivalency. That said, I am kinda surprised that even if you don't think any of the arguments hold water, that you haven't been able to find one that's solidly and clearly presented. I can't comment on how widely you've searched, so that's about all I can say.
~8:00 - ~9:00 - kind of an addendum to the previous point, could you not find any arguments that frame her as the character she is? Some of the work from the Drinker addresses the idea that the show is a legal drama that includes superheroes as a framing device, not a superhero show, as one example.
~9:40 - again a point more on media production in general, you've got to admit this does happen; companies do quantify aspects of diversity when creating characters. One glaring example is the diversity charts Blizzard uses for Overwatch characters.
~12:30 - hoping to get some clarification here. My understanding of this scene and its context is that Jen uses her She-Hulk identity exclusively on a dating app to attract attention, gets a date, then after the date reverts to Jen and is upset when her date isn't interested in Jen, only in She-Hulk. There's two ways to take that which kinda coexist, that the guys is shallow for only being interested in She-Hulk and not Jen, and that Jen basically catfished him by only presenting one of her two very different physical identities. Like I said, looking for some more explanation on that scene, it might be that the content I've seen has omitted things.
~15:00 - agree with this point, just making the observation that with the way social media networks are designed, this happens on both sides of the coin- you yourself admitted you were surprised to see anti-She-Hulk content on your recommended list. People who strongly support something are fed content that strongly supports it, people that oppose it are fed content that strongly oppose it. It's one of the many things that make me grateful I was taught from a young age to seek out and try to understand viewpoints that conflict with my own.
~17:00 as I said, I generally agree with the Drinker's points, so I'll go check out that other video of yours later. It's almost midnight at the time of writing, so might not be for a while.
~21:15 comparing trauma is never a good look. From a writing perspective it probably also wasn't the best because we've seen the Hulk's struggles and come to understand what he deals with, so belittling it isn't a great idea on that front. Are there ways this could have been written better to get the point across? Absolutely, but don't do the writers' job for them.
~21:40 I completely agree they've had different experiences. This furthers my point of why it was a bad idea to directly compare them. The idea that Jen can manage her anger better because she has more life experience doing it is absolutely solid, but the issue is that she compares constant low-intensity aggravation (not trying to downplay the severity of harrassment women face) to individual, high intensity trauma suffered by Bruce to the point that he attempted suicide. Nobody's pain is equal to anyone else's, and nobody's ability to handle pain should be compared to anyone else's.
~21:45 she also had the opportunity to realise this, let's be fair here.
~22:20 this also supports my point that this scene was poorly handled. As presented, Jen disregards the notion that Bruce's experience is different to her own as much as he does to her.
~23:00 I said before that I dismiss out of hand arguments along the lines of 'maybe this was the intent of the scene but it was handled poorly,' but in this instance I will reiterate that if the intention of this scene was to demonstrate that men and women handle anger differently, then it isn't fair to lump all the blame on Bruce. If the intent of the scene is to explore the idea that Bruce doesn't understand the way Jen deals with anger, then it should also explore the idea that Jen doesn't understand the way Bruce deals with anger, as they both deal with it on a fundamentally different level. Just as men are often unaware of the problems women face, women are often unaware of the problems men face.
~23:22 yes, yes he does. The example scene you're using here comes after a scene in which Bruce is held at gunpoint by Black Widow. Remember that the Hulk also responds to danger; clearly Bruce is well enough in control of himself that he can have an entire platoon of soldiers pointing weapons at him with intent to use them, without feeling threatened. He ultimately only transforms on the helicarrier because that was the objective of Loki's entire plan, and it's understandable that if you have an expert manipulator manipulating you, you can give in. On the idea that it's accurate to say that Jen can control her anger better than Bruce, at this point in time Bruce calmly threatens ("Please take your hand off me.") while Jen transforms and roars at the men who were harassing her. Bruce has overcome his inner rage, he is now in control of his Hulk form. Jen started in control of her Hulk form. This speaks to greater effort to achieve this state, no matter who had the easier starting position.
~25:15 circling back to the prior points. Again, whatever the intention of the scene is, she directly compares the causes of their anger. If you want to make the point that it's an exploration of the way men and women approach anger differently, she is also in the wrong for not appreciating that Bruce has experienced his anger differently to her. The observation that Bruce and Jen have inverted reasons to fear losing control is a good one, and loops back to the men and women often not understanding each others' issues bit. A good example of this is catcalling- women frequently have the problem of too much attention, while men frequently have the problem of receiving little to no attention out side of partners or family. Unfortunately, from what I've been exposed to, it seems this point is never addressed in the show.
~26:00 agree on the point, just want some clarification on if the show ever demonstrates that her viewpoint is flawed. Authorial intent aside, if you present a viewpoint and support it without opposing it, you are showing it to be correct. Again, if the show does at some point demonstrate that Jen's viewpoint is flawed, please let me know.
~27:20 wanting to clarify the above point having just heard this, you say that her rejection of his advice is proven to be premature, so I just want to clarify with the above, does it ever get called out that her claim that she has had to manage her anger more than him is proven to be flawed, based on their different experiences?
~27:30 again, if you only ever present one viewpoint without challenging it, you are kinda endorsing that viewpoint.
What a well thought-out and insightfully written comment; you basically highlighted the issues I have with videos like these. I have yet to bump into an essay defending She-hulk that properly represents what the opposing side's arguments are while simultaneously providing intelligent rebuttals to those criticism. I especially loved your point about people making arguments on the basis of "maybe this was their intent," essentially calling out the dangers of audiences doing the writing for the writers; that's not how reviewing a person's work works. Regarding Jen's infamous rant to Bruce during ep 1, I've also suggested that if the show really didn't want Jen's outburst to come off as poorly as it did, then it could have highlighted throughout series run (or even during that episode for that matter) the ways in which men and women deal with anger differently. Rather than having Bruce oddly nod abject validation of Jen's point of view, he could have retorted acknowledge her struggles as woman while highlighting his own struggles, not as a pissing contest, but as a way to illustrate to her his own struggles while both of them come to the conclusion that anger is a bitch to control and that they both have huge chips on their shoulders. Hell, they could even bond over stories about anger control, ultimately realizing that their both at different starting points. The way the show handles that whole exchange is just unfocused, petulant, and an example of poor character writing. All of this is bookended by the fact that the show never ever suggests that Jen's viewpoint on her pissing contest with Bruce was misguided ; so yea, to answer your question, no; Jen's viewpoint isn't demonstrated as being flawed nor is it challenged by any of the characters or themes in the show, certainly not in any kind of insightful manner.
@Miguel Garay I’m aware of the episode order change, but it still doesn’t address the actual issue I brought up in my comment. And yea, while Bruce ultimately ended up being right about needing absolute control over her anger (which we already knew he was), up until this point of the story, the narrative made no attempts to demonstrate how Bruce’s warning about one mistake leading to people seeing them as monsters loomed over the ensuing story beats leading to episode 8 . It would have been nice if the story actually built up to Jen struggling to keep her composure as the episodes went on; no I’m not talking about her whining about not feeling appreciated for being Jen; I mean the story actually making a nuanced, competent effort to portray her growing inability to keep her anger in check over time as life’s challenges start to pile on her, ultimately leading to the big outburst in episode 8. The narrative never once addresses this problem in a meaningful way until the most recent ep, and until we see how the last episode wraps up, we can’t say for sure if Bruce being right has or will be acknowledged by the writing as having any impact on Jen’s self-reflection or future characterization. The fact that Bruce’s warning is highlighted once in one episode, then never explore it in a meaningful way ever again, only to have Jen hulk out in the penultimate episode in some attempt to connect her actions to not properly heeding Bruce’s warning is a sign of mediocre writing, the way I see it. Some may argue that episodes 6 and 7 explore Jen’s flaws as a person and how she was losing so much of her self-esteem and capacity to take anymore bullshit that this sent her off the edge, but the context of those moments, I would argue, don’t meaningful reflect what Bruce’s warning about being in control of one’s anger and emotions entailed. At the end of the day, I can see the dots the writing was attempting to connect: the problem here is in the execution of the writing. It’s all so basic and lacking proper insight into the complexity of the emotions that drive people to self-destructive behavior the way the show was TRYING to build Jen’s arc to in order to capitalize on this moment
@Miguel Garay But that’s the thing: the sitcom formula could easily support what I suggested. What I’m asking for doesn’t need a full blown genre switch; this is just a simple request for better character writing and emotional insight in conjunction with its comedic expression . Don’t sitcoms also have their moments of drama? Don’t sitcoms have moments where character vices are taken a bit more seriously? There’s no reason She-hulk can’t retain its comedic trappings while exploring Jen’s character interestingly through situational comedy, satire, and a dose of black humor; so as long as a writer possesses the skill to balance these elements, you wouldn’t have to change a thing about She-Hulk’s general tone.
Doesn’t She-Hulk already attempting to explore Jen’s characters? Don’t people who argue for She-hulk say that it’s got some good character writing that explores Jen’s flaws as a person? So then my request shouldn’t be that big a deal, right? That could still fit into a comedy; as a matter of fact, I’ve already envisioned how it could be integrated without changing the identity of the show. At the end of the day, I just find the show to lack maturity in its writing: it’s not all that clever, barely has any wit, and demonstrates a myopic perspective on the themes and characters underlying the show’s driving force.
@Miguel Garay "but ultimately this in no way makes the show objectively better, just different"
I don't fully agree with that. Sure, that's what I think would personally make the show better, but that's because I also think it addresses the flaws found in the very show itself. My proposal arguably suggests a more logical unraveling of character motivations while properly synergizing said motivations to stronger, clearer themes as opposed to what we're getting; It's more than just making the show "different." What's the point of criticizing work if everything can simply be boiled down to: it's different? There are certain approaches that are less effective than others; would you agree with that? We perform analysis and criticism art in order to understand the "science" behind what works and what doesn't, right? Therefore, it can be said that the reason why I find She-hulk to be underwhelming is because it engages with storytelling processes that don't yield a cohesive or comprehensive outcome. But let's forget about what I think would make the show better, I'd like to hear what you think are the themes of She-hulk and how the show uses mechanics of storytelling to spool an engaging narrative
@Miguel Garay Ah; well that's good that you were able to take so much from the show; however from my point of view, almost nothing you wrote about She-hulk is properly represented meaningfully or with consistent level of competence in my opinion. Oh and look; the finale just dropped and basically proved my whole point about ep 8 not having much weight without a proper follow-up that would explore the consequences of Jen's flaws with insight and significance. Oh well; at least the show's over and with that, the toxic debates some people are having over it will die down.....eventually
This show actually reminded me of Jim Carrey’s film Liar Liar. What would happen if everyone started just saying what popped into their heads? Something like She-Hulk 😂
I can only be influenced for so long. Then I get tired of it.
Honestly the scene about rage in the first episode, really irked me due to the fact that as an old comic fan (and in the mcu Bruce background is not fully explained), Jennifer (that more than a cousin she is like Bruce sister ) compare his experience with the trauma conga that has been Bruce life even before becoming an hulk aka his father perennial emotional and phisical abuse, him witness his father killing his mother, his own mental problem...it looked very callous and narcisistic; i know that the writer intention were very probably more akin at your explanation, still it unintentionally put Jennifer under a very bad light for a lot of people that know Hulk history
That's the problem with Bruce's advice on anger, Bruce is a rage machine who would lose his shit at the drop of a hat thus becoming the hulk. Jen said "I don't have your baggage, stop treating me like I have your anger issues, I'm better at controlling my anger than you were." Bruce is like a Chapelle Show sketch of "When Keeping it Real Goes Wrong" every issue in the comics because people wouldn't have read it if the hulk only showed up 1 in 20 issues.
@@AngryCosmonaut no, no she can't. We can clearly see with obvious evidence that she cannot control her anger at all. She can control her powers. There's a difference. And from last time I checked, the hulkk abilities are controlled by many other emotions. Not just anger. Typically it just has to be very very strongly emotions. So technically they can transform out of fear or even excitement. The incredible hulk movie is canon. And I do know from one scene that the guy cannot even f***. God forbid he becomes a big green angry monster inside a woman. Lucky Jen doesn't have to deal with that even as a hawk. Though I can imagine her having to worry about breaking her dude's dick. 😬
So I will say this, it means it's perfect since life she has better control over her ability. Yeah, she doesn't have the same trauma baggage as him. But to talk now to him for his baggage and trauma or at least that's how it came off as because of her tone and her attitude, it is maybe wanted to slap the f*** out of her in the face. It was just one of those characters you wanted to punch in the face so damn badly. Not that that would matter since she's a hulk. But still, that's a type of feeling I get from this type of character. It's the type of character you just want to see get a beat down and learn a huge lesson.
So just to be clear, again I agree that it makes perfect sense unless you have better control over her abilities since she doesn't have the same baggage or they still need to say mental disorder with fighting with another eagle in control over her own body. And there's one thing I can say, they did represent that very well. But they're also clearly showing us that she can't control her anger for s***.
So it really just looks like she's talking out of her ass. It also feels like those who keep saying and that she can control her anger did not pay attention to that sin at all. She can control her ability, not her anger. And her abilities are not only powered by one emotion. The Hulk abilities never were just powered by anger. That's just a primary emotion that triggers it.
Now, a personal series that I had is maybe to use the control her all the time no problem before the hulk abilities. Then after getting them maybe it's causing some sort of hormonal imbalance which is able to switch back and forth between hulk and regular form. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if this happens to anybody Bruce included when it comes to these powers. But for a woman maybe it could be a bit more of a struggle. That could have been interesting to see if they managed to write it well and deliver it well.
And for me personally that's all it is. For what they're working with when it comes to Jen as a character, there is potential. I think with what we have it could be worked with. Had they had better writers and what the hell they're doing that is. But at the same time this could partially be due to Disney serious time constraints especially like with the bfx artists, maybe also the writers are also struggling. If that's the case then maybe I shouldn't be so harsh on the writers. But boy does it feel like this show was written by freaking 12-year olds. Show about a superhero lawyer, I would love to see her be more of a superhero or a lawyer at the very least. We see her use her abilities and get used to that.
In about her first world problems. Don't even bring up that scene of her being surrounded by the men cuz she barely even mentioned that later on in the show. She barely even talks about it. Everything else she keeps bitching about or first world problems. Oh boo hoo, oh boo hoo, this poor American woman and her first world problems. Oh boohoo. Let me play My world's tiniest violin while I struggle to see her a song with a swollen tooth in my mouth.
And that's another thing, I come to this show for escapism. Sweet business from my own issues. Scrape isn't from the swollen ass wisdom tooth in my mouth that is trying to get stuff out at this point.
And then I watch the show hoping to get a good character but instead I'm sitting here listen to some lawyer complaining about her first world problems.
@@HK47_115 Getting furious because she got revenge-porned in front of her family, friends, and co-workers is a little bit different than getting angry because some guy bumps into you in the street and made you spill your drink (which did happen to the Hulk in the comics).
Why is it when Marvel shows women having problems its "First-World Problems" but when they show a man having problems its "complex world-building that leads to character development"? I have no clue why you expected Marvel to deviate from the "Heroes With Problems" thing they've been doing for almost 70 years, but that's on you, not the show.
She-hulk has never really been about the trials and tribulations of being She-Hulk, its been about the problems with how society views her as She-Hulk. But Hey! Thank you for being one of the jerks from a She-Hulk comic, its like you popped out of a page!
@@AngryCosmonaut You may disagree with them, but you need not insult people, c'mon.
@@AngryCosmonaut
EDITED: *Marvel shows women having... "First-World Problems"... they show a man having "complex world-building that leads to character development"*
There's your answer.
EIGHT 23min episodes of She-Hulk (3hrs+)
ONE Iron-Man movie (2hrs6mins)
"Telling us/Bruce her life is awesome WHILE bitching about her life"
Doesn't wanna be a superhero cos "college debt/job title on LinkdIn"... perpetually bitches about her job/"dating in her 30s", using work to dismiss an admirer while at a bar... bitches about seeing Abomination on Sunday...
Tony Stark took a shell to the chest and was held captive in a cave and forced into slave labour, having been shown to be a brilliant inventor/investor but self centered/narcissticm, banging chicks that wanted to write "hate" articles about him...
"i don't have time to be a superhero, too much "trash for "MoneyPenny to take out in the morning, and need need jobs"...
22:55 Jen controlling her anger over catcalling = Bruce controlling his anger at being separated from Betty Ross or Bruce witnessing the suffering of poor people in South America and India, or the anger over the fact that he has a green rage monster inside him as the result of a stupid accident...that he is angry that he can't allow himself to get angry.
Poor Jen has to 'suffer' mansplaining 😢
One of the best parts about She-Hulk is that Jen really has that classic Bruce Banner/Peter Parker syndrome where everyone she meets just wants to give her some amount of guff for no real reason and she just has to role with it.
But she was catcalled!
You don't see how everyone was written that way so she looks better? She's nothing like Peter Parker
@@ninjanibba4259 The word "everyone" was literally in the OC's comment. "Everyone she meets just wants to give her some amount of guff for no real reason." EVERYONE. Because that is a lot like classic Hulk and Spider-Man comics where Peter and Bruce have put with everyone for no reason. Although Peter was largely a dick to everyone after he got his powers.
@@DarthTingleBinks yup, except Peter isn't a condescending person, he cares about others and actually saves lives as a hero, she does nothing
So stop comparing them, they couldn't be far apart, this Jennifer is s villain....comics Jennifer on the hand is an inspiration
@@ninjanibba4259 Peter is a complete asshole in the comics, though. When he first gets his powers, he ignores literally everyone, he bullies and talks back to Flash, and yeah, he also saves people. And acts like a dick while doing so.
Jen, at least in the show, has made it obvious numerous times she doesn't want to be a hero. She doesn't want her powers to interfere with her life. She's stuck with them, and she has to deal with it, but she doesn't want to be a hero. She wants to continue helping people as a lawyer, something she trained years for. Except her powers do interfere with her life. In her first case after getting her powers, the courtroom is attacked and she's forced to fight of Titania. By being both Jen and She-Hulk, she's taken advantage of; her job wants her for the publicity, and everyone she's dated only cares about She-Hulk. Titania even tried to steal her identity which shr was then forced into defending and keeping for herself despite never really liking the name. It's not until episode 8, with Daredevil, that she realizes that she can be both a lawyer and a superhero. She realizes, with the help and advice of Matt, that her two lives don't have to interfere with one another. In many ways, this version of She-Hulk is better than in the comics, where she immediately abandons her life and her Jen persona in favor of being She-Hulk and being a super hero for the attention. She cares less about her actual life than her powers and the spotlight that comes with them in the comics. Not what I'd call an inspiration.
But yeah, Peter and Jen are very different people. In fact, their arcs in the MCU are completely opposite so far. Peter accepted the responsibility he thought came with the powers (a responsibility that isn't inherently there) and then struggled to balance Spider-Man and his personal life before realizing he needs to focus entirely on Spider-Man and put Peter Parker second. Jen, however, first rejects the responsibility that Bruce tries to force on her, afraid it will interfere with her personal life and then comes to realize she can balance the two lives just fine and accepts She-Hulk as part of who she is.
Either way, both characters are great characters with great arcs. Objectively speaking. You might subjectively dislike MCU She-Hulk, but she is objectively good.
She-Hulk may not be attacking men indiscriminately but that doesn’t mean it’s not toxic
Then watch something else stop crying over a show about a green woman who talks to the camera
@@Flipitmixit silence bot
@@Lex_Luthor777 silence lexbot
@@Flipitmixit the show sucks and people want it to be better because they are passionate about the franchise. Dont gatekeep dork
@@-Diceman I thought the show sucked too, then I actually watched it and had a good time. Get that stick out your ass and try and enjoy things, or let people enjoy things.
I mean I get some of your points but her saying she had it harder than the man who lost both of his parents in a double homicide, tried to kill himself repeatedly, and was trapped in his other persona for years just didn't sit right with me. Also I cannot think of a single evolution in her character over the course of the show. She just didn't grow at all and that isn't good writing
she hulk hates high ratings and general favorability
She Hulk is literally beating Andor in views.
@@compareandcontrast9833 That's because Andor isn't Woke, and therefore didn't generate any controversy, and thus no "Critiquing the Critics" videos to drive traffic and interest in the show.
Besides, we all know a large percentage of She Hulk views is hate watchers looking to crap on it, as it deserves.
@What's The Takeaway? You should have told the internet that. When the first trailer dropped, they said it was woke and starting controversy. You could just type in Andor and woke to see both shows got the exact same treatment.
@Compare and Contrast How would I have told the internet that Andor wasn't woke when you are talking about the trailer?
And who cares about the trailer? I haven't found any videos talking about the show being woke. I see mostly positive reviews, with a few "Its not Star Wars" videos.
But the only videos praising she hulk are these types, which is more of an attack against certain types of content creators, and less about the virtues of She Hulk.
@What's The Takeaway? Learn what sarcasm is for Pete sake. Also, yeah, it was just the trailer, but that didn't stop certain creators from crying woke/blaming the creators in multiple videos before the show even came out. It's a bizarre pattern that seems to happen a lot more, and it's far from genuine critsim.
I like this video and the points you made but It’s similar to the videos you are opposing, having an opinion about a sentence or action in a scene and saying “this is what they meant, not what these other people say”
I like that! For me that’s the joy of a show that we can get so many perspectives but I don’t like ragging on those who disagree 🤷🏽♂️
I don’t feel like people get their message heard if the target group for the message is being invalidated in it.
I saw a video recently that opened my eyes, this show doesn't just hate men, it also hates it's women characters too.
1:23 "Our protagonist is a good woman"
ASSHURTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE!!!
Like Hulk, you have simply LABELLED HER "superhero/good"!!
Now i see that you don't understand the Hulk story arc.
The MCU did not invent the idea of a calmer, more self controlled Hulk. This is the the Gray and Green hulk story arc.
The full anger of Green Hulk is revealed as the Green Hulk separates itself from Banner. This makes the full raging Green Hulk, with no self control, and the Grey Hulk who is Banner trapped I a Hulk's body, unable to change back to a human. Grey Hulk is intelligent and calm, but he is at a disadvantage when attacked by powerful villains.
The whole Hulk story is about controlling the anger. An anger that wants to get out of control.
But what you are saying is woman better than man because she can handle anger better because she does it every day or she will be smacked down by some guy. so she can handle a fundamental change in her DNA which gets stronger as it gets angrier because she has been heckled on the street. She is better because she doesn't need the wisdom of the male Hulk who had to learn to control the anger or be destroyed by it or as a result of it. Why? Because Banner has never been catcalled before?
The character has no arc because her life is perfectly fine. Banners life was destroyed and he had to come back from that. She is already a yoka master so who cares if her DNA was fundamentally altered.
But she is just a better person than I am I suppose.
Kinda ironic how some of these reviewers try to convince us that She-Hulk is all about Gender when in fact, they are the ones that try to immediately make everything about Gender
Dennis is a perfect example of why this show is about *gender* . reviewers wouldn't pay attention to it if the show wasn't constantly drawing attention to it. Especially when the writers themselves stated they made the show intentionally antagonistic.
If the criticism isn’t valid, why is this show getting terrible reviews?
If the show is bad why is it doing better than the previous Marvel shows?
@@compareandcontrast9833 It isn't
@@thehonorablereverendaddiso1943 It is.
@@compareandcontrast9833 No, it isn't. You are being lied to by Disney's corporate stock takers
@@thehonorablereverendaddiso1943 So who's lying to you?
I want to hear YOUR personal opinions on the show itself. NOTHING related to the discourse, just you and your thoughts!
Yet fan baiting is still a thing, and the show runners are using it to build hype. As the show may not directly say agenda the producers, cast, and crew are screaming it.
Just wanted to drop a comment to help your numbers. Watched the whole and appreciated your take.
At the end of the day, if the thing isnt profitable and gets a market, it doesn't matter.
She literally invalidated hulk's struggles because guys call her Hot. Lmfao
@Miguel Garay she literally said " I can control my anger infinitely better than you" forgetting that hulk can't fall in love because he will transform or his radiation could kill his partner, is one incident away from being hunted by the government, still seen as a monster & responsible for the deaths at Johannesburg, was a test subject for his abusive father who killed his mom. Yet she complains that people hit on her or correct her.
So that’s not actually what she said. She said she does it ‘infinitely more’ - it’s a quantity thing, not a quality thing.
@@PillarofGarbage so she compares controing her anger more than someone who losts way more than she has? It's pretty easy to control your anger by a guy calling you cute than idk being chased by the government & 1 slip up away from being shipped to a war planet.
@@WGPhil-uw5cs Mr., you just proved the “quantity, not quality”….
@@tuojiangoman3228 would you rather be hit on or chased after the government that no matter how much you do they'll still see you as a monster.
She Hulk is not my favorite show (most of the mcu shows are kinda meh to me) but I see why people enjoy the show and I don’t want to dump over people who enjoy this show.
And if you don’t like the show itself that’s fine, the writing is not bad but it’s not that good either, and the dialogue is kinda bland (in my opinion) or maybe the show doesn’t click for you. That’s fine, but valid criticism isn’t “woke garbage” or “m-she-u ruining marvel” or anything with the word feminist involved.
To judge a show/movie you have to actually criticize the stuff that actually matters in a show/movie, writing, dialogue, characters, and pacing or maybe you simply just don’t like it or it’s not your cup of tea.
Another thing I have a new found respect for you mate for part three: why it’s happening?
Because I was one of these guys fans, yeah I used to be one of they’re fans, personally mine was yellowflash but his voice was too annoying to deal with. Mooler was also one I followed personally also, and also especially Critical Drinker. It’s true How the CZcams algorithm pushes rage bait videos onto they’re viewers in order to feed outrage. People want to feel the burn of hating something especially if it has anything to do with women or people of color. So I’m glad you’re bringing that to light.
Imo I don’t think they’re wrong but I also don’t think he’s wrong either. It’s somewhere in the middle with certain episode leaning towards one side more than the other
Would you really describe MauLer's content as "rage bait"?
Great vid!
Regardless of all of that, the show is really bad... it was not funny at all and the writing was really bad, the acting was really bad.
First, walking on broken glass was great for that scene because it foreshadows what happens with Josh. Mind blown.
I love how the people who say “She Hulk hates men” are making a total generalization out of the loud minority. I, as a man, am not offended by the show, and I rather enjoy the realistic nature of the relationships in it. And corporations aren’t feminist, they are masculine to their core, they just promote feminism to attract women to their product
Realistic nature of relationships in it? You must know alot of sluts.
You Are Narrow minded AF
This seems to be happening to any media that is even mildly critical of sexism. Hell, Wonder Woman got this for a while despite having no less than three heroic and sympathetic male figures and then the people who made those accusations pretended they liked it to crap on Captain Marvel.
@@cui8789 I don't remember that at all
Yea a totally core male dominated insurgent when the WRITERS are women????😂😂😂😂
From ep 1 I never thought it was anti-men. Sure Dennis was negative but Bruce was layered. He was right that Jens life had changed whether she wanted it or not. But he said as projecting some of his trauma on to her. Bruce was not bad at all. The guys at the bar weren't inherently evil but they were displaying toxic male behavior. They didn't attack her but they need to learn to get a hint. So more a teaching moment to guys to not intimidate women like that and it is intimidating. Dennis again isn't evil but he doesn't give constructive help just wants to man-splain and hijack the case. So from ep 1 I never saw the show hate on men, just try to teach male viewers maybe to not be toxic in their own life. Again titania was the only "supervillain" in ep 1.
Then how about a show that Addresses Misandry and teach women about their toxic female behaviour you would call it Misogyny wouldn't you
@@seyio1717 what? She hulk also shows toxic women and not to be like them so what are you talking about
@@TheDCbiz Yeah they showed them like for a few minutes in the superfluous wedding episode.. Women were actually...mean. But since no other man interacted with her except an actual "nice" dude she liked and eventually boned, maybe that was because there was no one else to target?
@@stevenrogers2684 No the bride said workers had quit because I'd her attitude
@@TheDCbiz still only a minor portion in the whole show
It always blows my mind when you quote the numbers on these negative videos when I hadn't heard of any of these creators (apart from Nando) until I started watching your channel
yeah, blows my mind too :(
Pausing to say I love this video!! I've been enjoying this sitcom for the 23-minute relaxed bit of fun that it is. I like how they've been teasing other characters, love what they did with Daredevil, and I'd be happy to see more!!
I really appreciated this take. Amidst seas of "show bad, don't watch", it's great to hear from people who actually enjoy something *why* they enjoyed it when other didn't. I do, however, think there's a lot more going on under the hood when it comes to this show's mixed reception. Sure, there's PROBABLY an unpleasant chunk of people who really are as delusional/misogynistic as the strawmen She-Hulk claps back at (and those people deserve to be called out). However, I'm convinced the average person not praising the show is rooted more so in a combination of Superhero burnout and simply...well, not being a fan of the genre choice.
Like, I wouldn't expect the average target audience of, say, _Sex and the City_ to rave about a movie like _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_ , "so why should I, a hypothetical MCU fan whose favorite movies include Iron Man 1 and Infinity War, be expected to enjoy a bubbly lawyer comedy?" The answer, of course, being: they're not. This show chose to take a significantly different direction from other Marvel properties in order to target a different audience, and that's that. But a lot of people won't see it like that, sadly.
Your _Infinity War/Endgame_ fans who are craving the next "Dramatic Main Plot Shakeup" will see She-Hulk the same way mainstream audiences saw Ant-Man 2 when it came out a month after Infinity War. They'll be expecting the sort of drama and stakes they loved and now crave more of, only to be confused when they see Marvel Products that simply aren't looking to do that. Then they'll question why Marvel would "suddenly" start making things that don't appeal to them specifically, and then latch onto criticisms posed by other people who were similarly unsatisfied.
That's why a lot of, say, Drinker's complaints (especially when you analyze his proposed changes) are proposing something tonally different than what the show is actually going for. She-Hulk is simply not his cup of whiskey, but -instead of just acknowledging this and avoiding the show- because there's more money to be made if he engages with trending topics, he'll criticize the spoofy superhero-flavored slice-of-life comedy for *not* being a complex dramatic NOIR thriller and blame this-or-that on why it ended up the way it did.
...Anyways, thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I think that's not what drinker is trying to say here, but rather he thinks the format and how she-hulk executes it is rather poor overall and that's mainly on the lack of substance and engagement within it's own plot in general, most of the show have you watch via jen goes via relationship problems, little instances of her 'lawyering' and hyper-feminine obsessions like weddings and 'therapy' without actual circumstances and reasons for her to be there whilst building up her 'real' antagonist in such a rubbish way without adding in the necessary significance for them to be there...like for example: Titania? what is she meant to be for Jen exactly? what does she even do? Intelligentcia? they meant to have a deep disdain for jen, but with the way, the writers just have bestie mention them numerous times with literal no avail due to Jen's carelessness...it makes them look like a total joke, which is the case with the very 4-chany vibe it has to them....if you wanted a comedic, slice of life done right...there's a plethora of anime hanging about...I do not see the point of this television series fully embracing the genre in itself that doesn't even respect its character's senses and intelligence.
@@justthatguy9077 That's it, most of the show feels like it doesn't respect Jen's intelligence as it set up for us, with everything it shows us Jen's not that great at her job but with everything it tells us she should be, sure she was the assistant DA but since then it's been downhill there's so much Legal Information that she should know that she doesn't that's just one facet of her personality ruined by the writing.
88888888888899
@@draykohunter6805 @Drayko Hunter Where I heartily disagree with Pillar of Garbage is in the writing. Case in point: Jessica Gao has said "none of us are adept at writing...courtroom scenes". I have yet to hear her say ... "so we hired Legal consultants"
Excellent point, thank you. The backlash here reminds me a lot of the early Wandavision criticism, about pacing and plot and pointlessness and misogynistic writing - until suddenly the show revealed the more traditional superhero action plot it had been hiding. A lot of people genuinely just haven't accepted that Marvel Studios isn't just a single movie franchise anymore, but also a proper STUDIO, and naturally when you've completed a successful superhero franchise using one formula... you branch out into other genres, the way other studios have, the way the comics themselves did as well.
Or, maybe, just maybe, it was a bad show?
Because?
Impossible! It has valuable social commentary about...um...green lawyers and bathroom grooming parties? I dunno...lol
The problem isn't that "she hulk hates men".
The problem is that it's a badly written show. And it hides its flaws by using feminism as a shield. (Pretty much like a lot of modern productions don't try to be good, but just hide behind some social cause by painting anyone who doesn't like it as "-ist").Thing is, some people attack the shield without looking deeper into it.
At the same time, you yourself are defending the shield, also forgetting the actual issues of the show.
If you look at any serious criticism, you see that while they talk about this topic, it's ultimately a portion of the points they bring. And we can't bring it down to simply "it sucks because it hates men", as it would make us ignore all of the other issues.
Moreover, there is a difference between "The show hates men" and "The story has taken a backseat to let a political agenda take the wheel". The first one isn't a valid criticism. The second one absolutely is.
That's true.
And also many men as long as not a cameo character are potryed as either bad or dumb.
This I might agree with. It almost feels like that's what Doctor Who has been doing in recent years as well. And i'm saying this as someone who is far from being anti-woke. Honestly i've seen politically correct shows with fantastic writing, it's not impossible.
Might be the best take here
@Miguel Garay not always. Sure some people may like some movies/tv shows while others don't which is quite subjective, but one could analyse bad writing objectively too, which doesn't have to do anything with grammar/spelling etc.
@Miguel Garay It can be objective.
A character with godlike powers, with everything going her way and succeeding at everything is a badly written character.
This is why Empress Teresa (The book I'm referencing) is widly considered as one of the worst pieces of litterature ever seen on this earth.
There are other objectively bad writing issues that exist : Continuity errors, retcons (if handled badly), repetitions, clichés, bad pacing, and so on and so forth.