As a priest who uses both the 2002 Missal and 1962 Missal in my parish, I'm particular about Catholic CZcams channels. Your channel is the best. Thank you!
2002 missal? You mean the 2011 correction of the English translation? I.E. “And with your spirit” edition. I wasn’t aware there was a 2002 edition… Just curious, father.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 The 3rd typical edition of the Missale Romanum was promulgated in 2002. It's what I refer to it as in the bulletin to distinguish it from the 1962 Missale.
That being said, I do respect Dr. Jones I do respect his scholarship. He’s given us a lot to work with if we keep our eyes on the prize and stop fighting and fighting as Catholics we can get to the other side.
Anti-Trad Youth?? Really? I am very well travelled and I can tell you I have not seen it. There is a huge number of young Catholics and just-starting families at the Traditional Parishes across America. Other than a few messed-up nuts in a dark corner of the Internet there is no youth anti-trad movement. In Steubenville, Ohio for example the Traditional Mass is standing room only of young students.
You seem to be misunderstanding post-trad as meaning anti-trad. Every post-trad guy I know loves TLM, loves traditionalism, and like Tim said, isn’t afraid to say the hard things. They’re just reassessing all of the criticisms of Pope Francis. Basically, they’re former rad trads that left behind their frustration and want to go back to total piety.
I don't believe that the youth is Anti Trad. It is my understanding that the Average age of Novus Ordo attendees is about 55 which is unsustainable being past child barring age and will fade away. Whereas TLM attendees are about 30 and child barring age. Which is sustainable and will grow in numbers. There are about 60% more Babies in the Traditional Latin Mass Parishes and that is a Huge difference. And these are old numbers which means that there are probably more. That is also why that Novus Ordo Parishes are closing in record numbers. In the Seattle WA area alone, it is reported that approximately 110 Novus Ordo Parishes are scheduled to close starting this year. From 170 Parishes down to 60 Parishes. That is just Stunning. Whereas the TLM is growing. And with all the Babies it is unstoppable, God Willing. That is my take on the situation. May The Lord Saturate Our Souls With The Holy Spirit.🔥✝️🙏
Yes, the consolidating in the Archdiocese of Seattle is staggering. The process is called “Partners in the Gospel” which is just a nicer sounding way of saying “corporate downsizing and liquidating.” There are currently over 170 parish and mission churches. This summer, no churches are supposed to close but just be grouped together into 60 “parish families,” which is another nice way of saying “clusters.” So 2-7 churches will be considered one parish. Yes, in my county all 7 churches will be clumped together. They are currently 4 parishes and 3 missions. By 2027, each “parish family” will have to “discern” how to consolidate. After that, I would imagine that closed churches would be liquidated. Never forget that Seattle was the first archdiocese to shutdown in March of 2020 and was the last to reopen. We were still having outdoor masses in the cold rain in February of 2021…
That is very surprising! I hope that Archbishop will continue the effort in making TLM Masses as a Front And Center of his leadership. Deo Gracias! 💖⛪🙏😊👍
@@LeogajeIII He will not. There are currently two FSSP parishes in the Archdiocese, which will remain but are the only TLM offerings. There isn’t a single diocesan parish that offers the TLM. I knew of one a few years back that tried adding one once a month, but it was heavily discouraged and soon abandoned; strangled in the cradle, if you will. There’s one SSPX chapel that I know of. The archbishop and archdiocese of Seattle are absolutely Not interested in making the TLM widely available or some mainstream pillar of their program.
I haven't seen this post-trad thing, but it sounds like a text-book example of astro-turfing. I don't think it's the only astro-turfing in Catholic social media.
There’s always bound to be people who try something and eventually get disaffected. Either it’s too difficult and rigorous for them, or they have some negative experience within a subculture that leaves a bad taste in their mouths about the whole thing. What’s really insidious, though, is when such post trad people actively steer people away from the Traditional Mass and besmirch the Church’s tradition and condemn the whole trad culture with a broad brush just because they had a bad experience or noticed some excesses.
@Timothy Gordon Thank you for this! I'm so glad someone finally addressed the anti-trad tendencies among a lot of youth. While it may be true that the Latin Mass and aspects of traditional theology (e.g., patriarchy, etc.) are thriving because of its attraction to young people, there is still a hesitancy among many of them who are unwilling to acknowledge problems with the current papacy and many members of his Curia. I think the two of you were on point in saying that this tendency comes from a desire for something secure to hold onto, as well as a maximalist approach to the papacy. In my personal experience, many of these "based and red-pilled" guys dismiss criticism of Pope Francis as nothing more than impious cringe, without showing any intellectual openness to seeing the damage he has caused to the Church. One of my personal opinions on this is that the "based" crowd tends to be averse to whatever they perceive as mainstream. So since the traditionalist movement is predominated by critics of Pope Francis, they view such criticism as cringy and are inclined to take the opposing view. It is easier for them scapegoat the problems in the Church on traditionalists (many of who have honestly done damage), while ignoring the worse damage coming from the current pope.
Exactly, the youth (including myself), want the Truth. In a world devoid of Truth, Culture, History, Masculinity, etc, it’s refreshing to see an actual Truth. That’s what’s captivating to us. Not all the cringy songs and displays, but real truth. And things like culture, authentic masculinity and strength, real logical reasoning, real morality that tells the Truth, real good, real culture, real tradition and history, real fasting, real zeal, etc. That’s what we want. Especially because we are denied these things in a culture devoid of meaning and filled with death. The people still being faithful, since the masses have seemingly gone cold, are going to be sincere Truth-seekers, and really interested in all that stuff. Someone coming along and telling the Truth is why Andrew state is so interesting to so many people, despite him being quite wrong on many things. He said a little bit of ture things which is what got everyone so interested in him. And it’s also that most youth are rebellious, and being rebellious now means that you actually stand up for social norms and common sense. We see big problems and want real solutions. So it can be easy for someone to come along and speak bs, but there’s also this desire for real truth, that is pushing people here. And when I learn about how important having a Pope is, and submitting to a Pope, I think great, the Pope is really important. And I must Obey the Priesthood. But then you see people constantly creating conspiracy theories, and talking bad about the Pope, and it’s tiring. I came for real Truth, to change something, not see people constantly bickering, when I couldn’t care less because it’s literally half the time not important. I also realize I’m supposed to be loyal to the Pope, and to always try and see him in the best light, that’s real zeal and real obedience. I don’t want to be an sede, or an SSPX, I want the Catholic Church. I don’t want to be at odds with the Church, I want to respect the Church. And then you find out that half the stuff people are worried about is just blatantly false. The Synod on Synodality did nothing bad like everyone was clamoring. The “gay Blessings”, were strategic in appeasing the German Bishops, but not accepting things contrary to Sound Doctrine. And then you see what this leads to with people like Fr Altman going on absolutely insane tangents. For every bad thing the Pope does he also does something based. Yea, there are better and worse times, and it’s my job to be obedient and always give great charity to the Church. To not call the Pope evil, or call him names or whatever. It seems like people that just aren’t willing to be obedient to their Pastors, and that create something out of nothing, and try to create buzz when something doesn’t go their way.
The interview with EMJ conducted by a buddy of mine. He didn’t say that saying the word Novus Ordo was bad. The context is when one Catholic will call another a “Novus ordo Catholic” derogatorily, as though to say they are lame Catholics.
I notice a post-Trad movement too, but from all I can tell, it doesn't fit your characterization. I've never heard someone in that crowd say Francis is the best Pope or that Vatican II is the best council, and for the most part they're all incredibly solid Catholics, not "nutjobs" or "normies". Rather, this movement seems to be a reaction against the hyperfixation of so many Catholic influencers on the liturgy wars, and the unfortunate tendency of some trads towards sedevacantism. I truly don't think it's an anti-trad movement, it's an attempt to hold onto the best of what traditionalists advocate (modesty, reverent liturgy, strong families, etc.) while avoiding their pitfalls.
Very well said. I think it began under to term “glad-trad” and it evolved into a sort of post-trad (or the medieval grindset - a throwback to medieval era when your common Catholic peasant didn’t know who his bishop was, didn’t know who the pope was, just worked, prayed, and cared for his family, and went to Mass as often as he could). A lot of the post-trad guys are former rad-trads that realized they began to sound a lot like Protestants in how much they de facto went after the magisterium, despite claiming they weren’t. I don’t think any of them have claimed Pope Francis to be the best they’ve seen or that V2 was the best ever. In short, the post-trad movement comes down to a return to piety, even when we can’t fully understand everything happening within the leadership, and reorienting ourselves to Christ.
@@ChachiTelevision1979 That's exactly it. And sure there will always be some who take it too far, like using it as an excuse to dismiss all critique of the Pope, but the vast majority of Catholics I know in this crowd are exactly what you mention; just wanting to live holy lives without getting lost in controversy after controversy.
Yeah, what the Trads have been describing about the NO has always seemed like a straw man to me. I’ve been to NO masses all throughout western pa over my lifetime and never once saw a clown mass or anything out of the ordinary.
EMJ doesn’t know everything but he knows a lot of things. You can push back on him and he’ll relent but you got to come correct you got to come prepared and you have to come with the facts in order for him to do that . I think EMJ is very unfair to you Tim, sometimes he just flies into a rage and he makes these heavy-handed comments that don’t have any basis in reality. Anyway I like you, Tim I’m on your side, I think EMJ’s assessment of you is poor at best it doesn’t make him look good at all.
Dr Jones said he was unfairly interviewed by TNT. Something to do with them persisting in accusing him of something Jones told them he didn’t say. I never saw the interview. But I see his point as to the weaponization of TLM and tradition.
@GenX_Catholic I'm not on Twitter or social media. So the only "weaponizarion" I usually hear is about inferiority of the NO liturgy and the NO rites for the Sacraments. How does a vast minority of the Church weaponize and use said weapons against the dominant majority? Is it through insults and attacks using Tradition and the TLM?
@@adamjj7751 the weaponization of TLM the Dr Jones speaks of is that it is driving some to schism or at the very least to disrespect of Church authority. He believes that an overly slavish devotion to tradition is causing faithful to leave the Church as they chase what they feel is “more true”. He argues that all must stay in the boat/the Church.
@GenX_Catholic ah I see. Sounds kinda gay honestly. Maybe I'll listen to the prophet myself and get a feel for the incredible damage traditional catholics are doing to Holy Mother Church via CZcams and Twitter.
“Certainty in the chaos” can only come from Christ Himself and His promises - namely, that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church. When some CZcamsrs seem to bring that into question, there’s pushback.
I think looking at the entirety of Pope Paul VI’s text which mentions “the smoke of satan”, Pope Paul is talking about the tyranny of which everything is reduced to scientism-scientific absolutism, where there is no room for faith, only for scientific reasoning.
As a priest who uses both the 2002 Missal and 1962 Missal in my parish, I'm particular about Catholic CZcams channels. Your channel is the best. Thank you!
2002 missal? You mean the 2011 correction of the English translation? I.E. “And with your spirit” edition. I wasn’t aware there was a 2002 edition…
Just curious, father.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 The 3rd typical edition of the Missale Romanum was promulgated in 2002. It's what I refer to it as in the bulletin to distinguish it from the 1962 Missale.
That being said, I do respect Dr. Jones I do respect his scholarship. He’s given us a lot to work with if we keep our eyes on the prize and stop fighting and fighting as Catholics we can get to the other side.
The Tribe……heh
It’s ok to notice…..
Anti-Trad Youth?? Really? I am very well travelled and I can tell you I have not seen it. There is a huge number of young Catholics and just-starting families at the Traditional Parishes across America. Other than a few messed-up nuts in a dark corner of the Internet there is no youth anti-trad movement. In Steubenville, Ohio for example the Traditional Mass is standing room only of young students.
You seem to be misunderstanding post-trad as meaning anti-trad.
Every post-trad guy I know loves TLM, loves traditionalism, and like Tim said, isn’t afraid to say the hard things. They’re just reassessing all of the criticisms of Pope Francis. Basically, they’re former rad trads that left behind their frustration and want to go back to total piety.
I don't believe that the youth is Anti Trad. It is my understanding that the Average age of Novus Ordo attendees is about 55 which is unsustainable being past child barring age and will fade away.
Whereas TLM attendees are about 30 and child barring age. Which is sustainable and will grow in numbers. There are about 60% more Babies in the Traditional Latin Mass Parishes and that is a Huge difference. And these are old numbers which means that there are probably more. That is also why that Novus Ordo Parishes are closing in record numbers. In the Seattle WA area alone, it is reported that approximately 110 Novus Ordo Parishes are scheduled to close starting this year. From 170 Parishes down to 60 Parishes. That is just Stunning. Whereas the TLM is growing. And with all the Babies it is unstoppable, God Willing.
That is my take on the situation. May The Lord Saturate Our Souls With The Holy Spirit.🔥✝️🙏
Yes, the consolidating in the Archdiocese of Seattle is staggering. The process is called “Partners in the Gospel” which is just a nicer sounding way of saying “corporate downsizing and liquidating.”
There are currently over 170 parish and mission churches. This summer, no churches are supposed to close but just be grouped together into 60 “parish families,” which is another nice way of saying “clusters.” So 2-7 churches will be considered one parish. Yes, in my county all 7 churches will be clumped together. They are currently 4 parishes and 3 missions.
By 2027, each “parish family” will have to “discern” how to consolidate. After that, I would imagine that closed churches would be liquidated.
Never forget that Seattle was the first archdiocese to shutdown in March of 2020 and was the last to reopen. We were still having outdoor masses in the cold rain in February of 2021…
@@jefffinkbonner9551
Thanks for the detailed information
on the Seattle WA area.
That is very surprising! I hope that Archbishop will continue the effort in making TLM Masses as a Front And Center of his leadership. Deo Gracias! 💖⛪🙏😊👍
@@LeogajeIII He will not. There are currently two FSSP parishes in the Archdiocese, which will remain but are the only TLM offerings. There isn’t a single diocesan parish that offers the TLM. I knew of one a few years back that tried adding one once a month, but it was heavily discouraged and soon abandoned; strangled in the cradle, if you will. There’s one SSPX chapel that I know of. The archbishop and archdiocese of Seattle are absolutely Not interested in making the TLM widely available or some mainstream pillar of their program.
I haven't seen this post-trad thing, but it sounds like a text-book example of astro-turfing. I don't think it's the only astro-turfing in Catholic social media.
I haven’t gone to Catholic Twitter now X in over two years, and I think that “post trad” thing is more loony than the trads.
There’s always bound to be people who try something and eventually get disaffected. Either it’s too difficult and rigorous for them, or they have some negative experience within a subculture that leaves a bad taste in their mouths about the whole thing.
What’s really insidious, though, is when such post trad people actively steer people away from the Traditional Mass and besmirch the Church’s tradition and condemn the whole trad culture with a broad brush just because they had a bad experience or noticed some excesses.
@@MissPopuri+JMJ I have yet to meet a loony trad. Investigate and don't rely on common smear.
There's a name for the part of the youth that's "anti-trad": revolutionaries
@Timothy Gordon Thank you for this! I'm so glad someone finally addressed the anti-trad tendencies among a lot of youth. While it may be true that the Latin Mass and aspects of traditional theology (e.g., patriarchy, etc.) are thriving because of its attraction to young people, there is still a hesitancy among many of them who are unwilling to acknowledge problems with the current papacy and many members of his Curia. I think the two of you were on point in saying that this tendency comes from a desire for something secure to hold onto, as well as a maximalist approach to the papacy.
In my personal experience, many of these "based and red-pilled" guys dismiss criticism of Pope Francis as nothing more than impious cringe, without showing any intellectual openness to seeing the damage he has caused to the Church. One of my personal opinions on this is that the "based" crowd tends to be averse to whatever they perceive as mainstream. So since the traditionalist movement is predominated by critics of Pope Francis, they view such criticism as cringy and are inclined to take the opposing view. It is easier for them scapegoat the problems in the Church on traditionalists (many of who have honestly done damage), while ignoring the worse damage coming from the current pope.
Tim, Maybe you should try stepping into the SSPX chapel Bishop Lefevbre was right.
His pride won’t let him
It’s not that Pope Francis is based, but that being a protesting sede is objectively cringe.
Exactly, they simply have no authority to make these pronouncements.
Exactly, the youth (including myself), want the Truth. In a world devoid of Truth, Culture, History, Masculinity, etc, it’s refreshing to see an actual Truth. That’s what’s captivating to us. Not all the cringy songs and displays, but real truth. And things like culture, authentic masculinity and strength, real logical reasoning, real morality that tells the Truth, real good, real culture, real tradition and history, real fasting, real zeal, etc. That’s what we want.
Especially because we are denied these things in a culture devoid of meaning and filled with death. The people still being faithful, since the masses have seemingly gone cold, are going to be sincere Truth-seekers, and really interested in all that stuff. Someone coming along and telling the Truth is why Andrew state is so interesting to so many people, despite him being quite wrong on many things. He said a little bit of ture things which is what got everyone so interested in him.
And it’s also that most youth are rebellious, and being rebellious now means that you actually stand up for social norms and common sense. We see big problems and want real solutions.
So it can be easy for someone to come along and speak bs, but there’s also this desire for real truth, that is pushing people here. And when I learn about how important having a Pope is, and submitting to a Pope, I think great, the Pope is really important. And I must Obey the Priesthood. But then you see people constantly creating conspiracy theories, and talking bad about the Pope, and it’s tiring. I came for real Truth, to change something, not see people constantly bickering, when I couldn’t care less because it’s literally half the time not important. I also realize I’m supposed to be loyal to the Pope, and to always try and see him in the best light, that’s real zeal and real obedience. I don’t want to be an sede, or an SSPX, I want the Catholic Church. I don’t want to be at odds with the Church, I want to respect the Church. And then you find out that half the stuff people are worried about is just blatantly false. The Synod on Synodality did nothing bad like everyone was clamoring. The “gay Blessings”, were strategic in appeasing the German Bishops, but not accepting things contrary to Sound Doctrine. And then you see what this leads to with people like Fr Altman going on absolutely insane tangents. For every bad thing the Pope does he also does something based. Yea, there are better and worse times, and it’s my job to be obedient and always give great charity to the Church. To not call the Pope evil, or call him names or whatever. It seems like people that just aren’t willing to be obedient to their Pastors, and that create something out of nothing, and try to create buzz when something doesn’t go their way.
This was on yesterday
Title check:
Young women are anti-trad.
The interview with EMJ conducted by a buddy of mine. He didn’t say that saying the word Novus Ordo was bad. The context is when one Catholic will call another a “Novus ordo Catholic” derogatorily, as though to say they are lame Catholics.
I notice a post-Trad movement too, but from all I can tell, it doesn't fit your characterization. I've never heard someone in that crowd say Francis is the best Pope or that Vatican II is the best council, and for the most part they're all incredibly solid Catholics, not "nutjobs" or "normies". Rather, this movement seems to be a reaction against the hyperfixation of so many Catholic influencers on the liturgy wars, and the unfortunate tendency of some trads towards sedevacantism. I truly don't think it's an anti-trad movement, it's an attempt to hold onto the best of what traditionalists advocate (modesty, reverent liturgy, strong families, etc.) while avoiding their pitfalls.
Very well said. I think it began under to term “glad-trad” and it evolved into a sort of post-trad (or the medieval grindset - a throwback to medieval era when your common Catholic peasant didn’t know who his bishop was, didn’t know who the pope was, just worked, prayed, and cared for his family, and went to Mass as often as he could).
A lot of the post-trad guys are former rad-trads that realized they began to sound a lot like Protestants in how much they de facto went after the magisterium, despite claiming they weren’t.
I don’t think any of them have claimed Pope Francis to be the best they’ve seen or that V2 was the best ever.
In short, the post-trad movement comes down to a return to piety, even when we can’t fully understand everything happening within the leadership, and reorienting ourselves to Christ.
@@ChachiTelevision1979 That's exactly it. And sure there will always be some who take it too far, like using it as an excuse to dismiss all critique of the Pope, but the vast majority of Catholics I know in this crowd are exactly what you mention; just wanting to live holy lives without getting lost in controversy after controversy.
Who is behind the surge in TLM & Orthodox Christianity, it not youth?
I just never saw what I was told I would find at the NO, and realized i would rather stick close to the Pope and not people protesting.
Yeah, what the Trads have been describing about the NO has always seemed like a straw man to me. I’ve been to NO masses all throughout western pa over my lifetime and never once saw a clown mass or anything out of the ordinary.
EMJ doesn’t know everything but he knows a lot of things. You can push back on him and he’ll relent but you got to come correct you got to come prepared and you have to come with the facts in order for him to do that . I think EMJ is very unfair to you Tim, sometimes he just flies into a rage and he makes these heavy-handed comments that don’t have any basis in reality. Anyway I like you, Tim I’m on your side, I think EMJ’s assessment of you is poor at best it doesn’t make him look good at all.
He’s a grouchy boomer who’s cucked on race
Dr Jones said he was unfairly interviewed by TNT. Something to do with them persisting in accusing him of something Jones told them he didn’t say. I never saw the interview. But I see his point as to the weaponization of TLM and tradition.
@GenX_Catholic I'm not on Twitter or social media. So the only "weaponizarion" I usually hear is about inferiority of the NO liturgy and the NO rites for the Sacraments. How does a vast minority of the Church weaponize and use said weapons against the dominant majority? Is it through insults and attacks using Tradition and the TLM?
@@adamjj7751 the weaponization of TLM the Dr Jones speaks of is that it is driving some to schism or at the very least to disrespect of Church authority. He believes that an overly slavish devotion to tradition is causing faithful to leave the Church as they chase what they feel is “more true”. He argues that all must stay in the boat/the Church.
@GenX_Catholic ah I see. Sounds kinda gay honestly. Maybe I'll listen to the prophet myself and get a feel for the incredible damage traditional catholics are doing to Holy Mother Church via CZcams and Twitter.
“Certainty in the chaos” can only come from Christ Himself and His promises - namely, that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church. When some CZcamsrs seem to bring that into question, there’s pushback.
People are finally starting to wake up to the fact that the "smoke of Satan" refers to the Protestant "Rad Trad" movement, not the Magisterium.
🙄🤦🏻♂️
I think looking at the entirety of Pope Paul VI’s text which mentions “the smoke of satan”, Pope Paul is talking about the tyranny of which everything is reduced to scientism-scientific absolutism, where there is no room for faith, only for scientific reasoning.