Defending FSSP/ICK from Taylor Marshall
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2021
- Defending FSSP/ICK from Taylor Marshall
Tim addresses Taylor Marshall’s spurious attack on FSSP/ICKSP’s recent communique (to the Vatican about Traditionis Custodes) as a “cave in.” He explains why the communique was well done and why its critics such as Marshall have missed the mark so gravely
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I'm a convert, a priest, and I offer the Tridentine Mass regularly in my diocesan parish. You are spot on with everything you've said here. We must be obedient to the pope if we are to be Catholic.
Thank you, Father.
When even a "conservative" (for lack of a better term) agrees with Tim....
Obedience has a limit… when on the Table at the N.O. a Pachimama Idol is placed will you continue to show obedience?
You are under no obligation to follow changes that are undermining the faith
Even if that means obeying a abuse ?
It breaks my heart to see the upset between Mr.Gordon and Dr. Taylor. I respect and admire both of you. I’m offering up my Rosary tomorrow for the spirit of disunity to leave you both alone and for your friendship to be repaired. May God bless!
I love both of these gentlemen and their families. I’ve learned so much from both of them. Prayers for both families.
Me too!!! I'm so grateful to both of them. ❤TNT❤
It’s a shame egos have gotten so much in the way.
We must find common ground, the real fight is not among ourselves. It’s s trying to divide us who are faithful to Tradition… Both are good men and have inspired many people. I pray for unity and peace.
@@crowlikemadness Yeah it’s too bad we don’t have hear Taylor’s side of it as he never brings it up. I’m sure it’s a thorny mess of a mix of each of their flaws, mistakes, egos, ideologies, and platform ambitions colliding in an ugly way. Of course according to Tim, it was Taylor who was in the wrong both personally and ideologically and was the one shutting him out. Maybe that’s the case, but it’s convenient Tim frames the whole thing as him being the good guy who’s only ever totally honest and not influenced by the whims of popularity.
Honestly, the two should just box it out in a ring for as many rounds as it takes for them to release their spite and salt.
GENTLEMEN: I PRAY THAT WE MAY BE ONE.
I don't care who came first of why, I've researched all this. As a Catholic..........WE MUST BE ONE.
How did being Catholic become so complicated? Just makes me tired and sad and lost. The devil is in the details has never been more true.
Maybe we spends too much time on social media and not enough time praying, reading scriptures and good books.
@@pavelrazamazov2672 That sounds like "ignore it and it will go away".
Greg Grimer i said too much time, not shut off social media completely. Prayers are much more important for the Church than looking up stuff on the internet.
👏 “The hierarchy of the Catholic Church is a lot like the military.” “This guy stands in the shoes of Peter! Universal Jurisdiction!” -Tim Gordon.
You need the time it takes to get a law degree to understand all the rules that none of the Catholics follow. Waste of time. Focus on a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
If one is obedient to a Pope who acts in direct contradiction to previous Popes, is that person being obedient to Christ?
Well said.
Exactly
Why is it poorly said?
Exactly. By that logic heresy is just a matter of dates.
@@mmccrownus2406 What lie?
There needs to be healing between Tim and Taylor. Things are going to get really dark soon in our country and world.
Don't let the enemy divide this Church,....that's what's happening!
Adrienne Vose, CFT .-. True. Michael Matt from remnant newspaper continually stressed the need to unite the clans.
Pls pray dat things not get 2dark. Christ IS King.
Tim has tried multiple times. Taylor has to want it, though, and for the life of me I can't understand why he wouldn't want to reconcile.
Tim and Taylor used to discuss on TnT; "Why do trads fight and bicker?"
They both agreed back then, that trads will fight and bicker until we have an alpha male in St. Peter's chair who does his job. Punishing Catholics for being Catholic and restricting the traditional Mass just for being traditional is not the Pope's job. It's beyond his authority.
I admire and respect both you and Taylor! You both are good Catholic traditional men. It's fair to have criticisms and disagreements. I hope you guys can eventually work out your differences and work together again. God bless the Marshall's and Gordon's.
The point is not about them being good men with good families. The bigger point is one of fidelity. The church moved on from the Council of Trent. Jesus dealt with the church He had-not the church he wished He had.
I feel your criticism of Taylor Marshall borders on an ad hominem attack. I'm an active FSSP supporter but i don't think your adversarial approach helps its cause. Sad.
Hogwash. If all obeyed the popes we wouldnt know the name Athenius and we would have a false religion. If a popes teaching checked against the faith of ages differs in heresy he is not to be obeyed. He occupys a Seat of Truth temporarily as guardian of True Faith. Marcel was absolutely correct, guided by Heaven
I think it's high time to STOP attacking other Catholic personalities. Everyone will be held accountable by God for our actions and all of us have much to work on in our own lives.
I hope your outrage is referring to a layman (Dr Marshall) saying what he did about two holy orders. They are holy orders!!! Dr. Marshall needs to watch it or he can be damned. It is serious!!! He is very charming and handsome. May He not be a wolf in sheep's clothing.
I myself have been used by the devil for I'll when I wanted to do good. We must PRAY for him.
We all want souls to be saved.
Mr Gordon is trying to help save souls and keep us on the right track. He risks subscribers, He doesn't try to cater to you or me. That's refreshing.
That's definitely not happening here. it is called fraternal correction
I don’t think it was an attack. I believe it was a brilliant examination of the document. I learned so much from this video.
@@lalvee7041 I think Taylor was referring to the leadership of the FSSP but not the priests....It is a shame two good friends and their families are going through this..
"One must resist to his face a Pope who publicly destroys the Church." ~ Saint Cajetan
We are all wrong sometimes. We can't make gods out of men. We are meant to correct each other. Thank you for doing that.
Be guided by the Holy Spirit in all that you say and do.
@@BradleyUK58 Right. "Do as I say, forget what was done"
"Novus Ordo looks like a new church but it's not?" That sounds like mental gymnastics.
I don’t think he said we should be disobedient, but rather show a bit a strength while still obeying?
This podcast was just an excuse to attack Taylor. Envy is not a good look, Tim. And, your argument is summed up in this odd proposition: Francis is evil, so obey him unconditionally.
@@jm08050 tim hasn't watched his full videos and references taylor has given.
@@jm08050 Francis is the pope, so obey him unconditionally. Lol, nice try twisting words
This is more damaging than helpful. Follow Abso Vigano for direction in this regard.
just look at Tims and Loftons subscribers number, compare it to Taylors...everything will be clear to you
I've found the hardest thing about being Catholic is Catholics.
😂😂so Right
I find this very sad. It feels like high school where one girl offends another and the one who feels offered try’s to get their friends pitted against the offender. Apparently this is a cross you have been given to carry, please ask God to help you do it well. I’ve never heard Dr. Marshall attack you.
Cause Dr Marshall is a good guy!
I agree. What a title. Timothy you should be above that. You could be right or wrong but such a title is definitely unbecoming of men that were once friends. You are bright and make a great show yourself without using click bait as they say.
No but misleads catholics into ridiculousness, like calling others "papist"
Our dude here is just tryin to set things straight. Rebellion is fine as long as it ain't GOD'S AUTHORITY
God bless ur heart strong cats 🤙
Marshall has indeed spoken against Gordon. Pay attention
@@newtexan1
That post is two years old and to the best of my knowledge Taylor Marshall hadn’t made any comments at that time. I don’t know if he did after that because I don’t go to either of their sites anymore. If I go anywhere it to, “Return to Tradition.” Anthony usually has the paperwork to back up what he says.
Allow the Holy Spirit to speak through you to your audience. Prayers for you both. Tim + your family❤️ and Dr. Marshall + Family❤️. The personal information could have been left out of this discussion. That just causes gossip which is a sin. Forgiveness is necessary on both parts and let's pray about Unity in Christ for our Future. You both are teachers here. Children are listening, they need guidance and Truth. Teach like our Saints, better yet, Teach on the Saints and stop the who is right cattiness, pray with your hearts on who is causing this... Forgiveness as Christ told us. God Bless ❤️🕯️❤️🕯️🕊️
Tim is not attacking Taylor as a person. He is talking about the disagreements in Catholic theology - which Tim is passionate about - and rightly so.
I agree with Tim’s theological and historical points and his opinion that this is the worst Pope and crop of Bishops in our history.
However I too am at least uncomfortable with his repeatedly calling Taylor dishonest. To be dishonest you have to KNOW your position is false. Just like you can say something that is patently false but that in itself isn’t a lie. To be a lie one has to KNOW it’s a falsehood.
I don’t think the backstory of the nature of their divorce should have been revealed. I was curious also but it really wasn’t any of my business. It could have been handled by just saying there were “creative differences “ and leave it alone.
@@traditionalgirl3943 that attack was very personal. Tim says Taylor wouldn't respond the day after daughter's brain surgery??? Your reply is the epitome of excuse making based on preference for the underlying message. And I use underlying specifically.
@@luxetspes4837, I agree it was a personal issue but Tim uses facts to support his points not insults so in that way it was impersonal. That Taylor didn’t call is a (neutral) fact that is true whoever wants to use it. Friends tend to support friends in distress. Taylor’s (non)action speaks for itself - and Tim lets it do so.
@@traditionalgirl3943 I appreciate the intellectual analysis and the effort to let the facts speak for themselves. There is the problem, however, that we can't truly know all of the facts. Here is what I mean. Was TM truly being callous, or did he make a judgment in an effort to achieve a better outcome? For instance, was TG overly attached to, say, any number of things, like being right, swaying another's opinion, etc., to the extent that this was detrimental to himself or his family or his daughter? Since the fathers of the Church teach that no one chooses "evil" for the sake of evil, but by falsely elevating some aspect of the good, we have to assume that TM's motivation was toward good. Next we have to ask, was it properly ordered, was it a prudential judgment. That can only be elucidated by TM. TG is limited in the facts that he can provide.
This is the very essence of why the public airing of personal issues is so detrimental. TG could have easily addressed the talk "to those who might feel this was a weak response from the FSSP, et al..." The actual delivery was unnecessary to the message.
It was not a fraternal correction, it was very personal.
Love you brother. Love you and Taylor
It hurts to see them beefing it!
That was unprofessional and impolite.
Criticism of Taylor Marshall’s opinion is fair game. But Tim, you made this an ad hominem attack video. Your dislike of Taylor comes through quite poignantly. You’re better than that.
No, he isn't. Clearly.
I would agree, I like listening to Taylor, and if he's wrong then Tim should step in...it's just that Tim can come over as overly intellectual and smug as if we should all be as scholastically aware as he is to get the point. Don't use intellect like a hammer, weave it into something we( maybe just me/I) can understand, digest and pass on knowing it IS correct. Blessings from Scotland everyone.
Ross Hannah - blessings right back at you from Pennsylvania. God be with you.
@@greggrimer1428 Yes he is, clearly.
I picked up on that as well
Timothy , telling your audience how bad Dr. Marshall is by giving us a list of all the wrongs he has done you ,( @28:40 min.), like failing to call you when your daughter had brain surgery is described in the Catechism of The Catholic Church par #2477 as the Sin of DETRACTION:
2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:
- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
- of DETRACTION who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
- of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.
😂 Well said!!
_"... cause them unjust injury."_
_"... without sufficient foundation..."_
_"... without objectively valid reason..."_
_"... by remarks contrary to the truth..."_
@@CatholicismRules yeah... but that involves a lot of extra reading to read the whole thing. better just to stick to the clauses necessary to make a point, amirite?
@@jedediah9622 Oh no, certainly read the whole thing. That's why I put the ellipses there, was so that people would want to read the context. I was just pointing out the clauses which define the context.
@@CatholicismRules i'm tracking. i'm with you. i was being sarcastic.
Tell us again how you made Taylor Marshall popular... My goodness, I can't stand how childish all of this is.
Yes, Tim, stay on topic. You are better than this. Hurt in the past or not, be at peace. Lift it up.🙏
So you are basically the reason Taylor Marshall is popular. Got it.
@@enzobianco5119 No..Taylor is not the one bad mouthing and blaming for his anger...
I haven’t watched any CZcams in awhile bc I’ve found myself watching more CZcams than practicing virtue. Need to make sure I live a saintly life first and foremost by practicing virtue, receiving sacraments, reading Scripture, etc before going to CZcams for current events / gaining more knowledge.
But after a little while I decided to watch some more stuff again, and saw your video. I respect your desire and practice to always remain faithful to Christ and His Church. God Bless you brother!
I love your show Tim and Taylor’s also, but I’ve been watching too much of You Tube lately although most of what I watch is Catholic and good. But I’ve been neglecting some of my duties and with everything occurring in the Church and US it’s been making me apprehensive and anxious so I feel that the devil indeed knows just how to allure one into thinking I’m doing the right thing, so I’m limiting my time. Only watched a little of this but will get back to it. I attend the TLM Mass but if our bishop forbids it I’ll live with the Novus. If the TLM is in God’s plan the Pope will not be able to squash it and eventually will reappear.
I wanted to hear Tim’s take on the FSSP letter but with a title that appears to be a personal attack on TM, I did not want to lend an ear to that. It would have been more charitable to have given an opinion without the public take down. Please don’t start infighting within the TLM community. Just say your say and let us decide what opinion we agree with. You both are valuable. God bless.
This.
A fraternal correction to a fellow Catholic whose rhetoric is leading the faithful into schism is never uncalled for
Please read my words again. You did not grasp the meaning of the entire comment.
In less words: I disagreed with the title and how it appeared.
Thank you and blessing.
@@jilly2848 you should have heard it. It was anything but fraternal.
Give the man a break... You don't know what Tim has been through. When I left religious life.. people were very very hard on me.. the worst being my family. Until they found out what I went through.. then they understood why I left.
Padre Pio was always obedient to the church authorities, so I use his actions as a example.
Ave Maria from Australia
I really appreciate your point. You’re so right. I’ve been entertaining ideas of what to do if churches are shut down again, thoughts of secret masses. Perhaps I need to reconsider, be obedient and offer it up.
@TFEA And over 300 years before him St John of the Cross. So Padre Pio in that respect is a lot closer to our time than St John of the Cross the lesson is the same from both Saints even if you are in the right your respect the judgement of the Church and trust in Christ promise that they will eventually get it right. In both cases the church corrected their errors in judgement against these saints. The lesson is timeless humility is that lesson. Something rad trads seem to have none of the FFSP have been humble in respect in their dialogue rad trads take note.
@@lilwaynesworld0 Pio and John can err even as Saints. And no, not even "eventually gets it right," broski. Either you believe the living person who is the Pope is correct and to be obeyed in all things ordered extraordinarily and ordinarily (check Vat 1's direct wording) and thus cannot order sin even if apparently so, or you believe that the Pope can order sin in ordinary magisterium and that, in those cases, the Faithful can guard the Faith from such worm-ridden Popes.
kaistigerboy, would Pio follow a Pope into sin, or would he say, contra the modernist Solapapaists, that no Papal order can be sinful, and so must be followed even if it is "apparently" sin, like in doing away with the Latin Mass - an action anathematized onto future Popes in Session 7 Canon XIII of Trent (quiscumque means absolutely everyone regardless of time and rank, Pope included)? Do you think Pio would be celebrating the Leftist New Rite without any reverence, which everyone knows is the next step, happily putting forth that awful and Satanic offering slyly praising Cain's abominable sacrifice to God?
@@pdstor St Pio, St John of the cross could error, but they didn’t error in obedience, that’s t one of the reasons the Church made them Saints . Another point , St Pio and St John of the cross , two of the greatest mystics the Church ever had could still error , how much more so can you and I error ?? There is no safer corse to take then obeisance to Church authority. Dosnt mean you have to agree with every prudential judgment made ,
Another example was the obedience the Jesuits showed when they were unjustly suppressed by the Pope . Neither they or most others in the Church thought the Pope was making a good decision in that case , yet they obeyed .
I didn’t take it that Taylor was attacking FSSP, but was asking did they cave in. It was more of a discussion with his viewers. He’s definitely a Catholic inside out and we can see that. It’s just sad y’all had to split. I hope there’s unity again in the future because we need every faithful Catholic to be United in prayer and other things
He was attacking them. Taylor was way off base. I watched the entire video.
Just a thought, I asked my husband after listening to TM's video, what did you think he was saying, which he replied, TM thought the FSSP caved and he is angry. I think Tim is saying Marshall wanted to take the temperature of the audience and base the content of his discussions upon that said temperature. So this is the temperature or what he assumes, people are or should be mad at the FSSP... My question is you might be disappointed in their response but what is TM saying they should have done? What is the option left? Pope has the power and all the say. We did the Protestant thing, it's a dead end.
Pope Francis stated “Vatican II is Magisterium.” Vatican II never abrogated the Latin Mass. How can Pope Francis contradict Pope Francis by then declaring that TLM is rigid and should be done away with? Confusing. Contradictory. Messy. Not reasonable.Absolutely no paternal.
But We all know that Obedience has it's Limits
YOU SIMPLY CANNOT JUMP OFF THE CLIFF JUST BCOZ A POPE OR A BISHOP TELLS YOU TO DO SO.
'Obedience has its limits'
This is an exaggerated example because the pope did not command to commit sin. If a law of a pope falls into the limits of his power and jurisdiction over the church (and that includes the practice of liturgy) then the appropriate response is to obey.
Is Archbishop Vigano wrong for being so negative about the pope?
He is right to be negative just like a lot of saints have done on the popes in the church history. If St Catherine of Sienna still around, she will put the Pope out of the throne…but she didn’t leave the church. You can criticize the leader but save the church.
Damn. Tim and Taylor Marshall's show were my favorite. I was not a morning person but I sure as hell was for those premieres.
I did so as well mildly but my response was not printed. Marshall can get very critical at times. His book, Infiltration, is good.
Tim’s gone overboard in defending this pope who dares to say that the Ten Commandments are not absolutes!!! After his idolatry with the Pachamamas was idolatry; therefore he committed heresy. Blasphemy, apostasy. The pope is not Catholic. His biographer, Austin Iverleighh, proudly describes a rigged election in 2013 and they almost accomplished in 2005 but for Bergoglio twinge of guilt feelings. Praise God we enjoyed almost 8 years with Pope Benedict m.
@asteinmann he does. I agree.
"If any one shall say, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be condemned, or without sin omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed by any pastor of the churches into other new ones; let him be anathema."
(Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon XIII)
A hæretical disciplinary Motu Proprio doesn't outweigh the Œcumenical Council's doctrine about the rites of the sacraments.
Oh my goodness. Tim, you are killing it with this show today! I totally did not watch TM show on the caving of the FSSP/ICKSP for the exact reason you spoke of. I knew it would be negative. I knew it would be really divisive. I totally called TM jumping the shark and you mentioned it today and I am totally yelling, heck yes! I am not an intellectual but was absolutely positive that was what he was doing..... Thank you so much for staying true. God bless you abundantly and may your endeavors increase exponentially!
Love both of you guys. Maybe it is not possible yet but my wish is for the SSPX, the FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King (and other Latin Mass folk) to focus on what binds us together as Catholics who opt for the Tridentine Mass instead of what items we disagree on. Just my two cents worth. Cheers gentlemen.
Velox Versutus Vigilans
Attacking Taylor Marshall and calling him “disobedient” and “Protestant” after defending Steve Skojec is laughable
Right, Tim really needs to grow up!
Hi brother Tim. I think we can do without knowing the personal interactions between you and T. Marsh, would be better for you and for us...just creates animosity between people. Secondly, it seems like you two have different tactics of approach. Do you think it's wrong to take a more defensive stance in consideration of ALL THIS CRAZINESS THATS GOING ON IN OUR CHURCH? It doesn't mean to disobey, but man look around us. The whole Church is crumbling with the world. Is someone making a video *asking* if the FSSP hierarchy caved so wrong? I mean doesn't it make people think about what we should be standing up for in the midst of an absolute crisis? Also, are you being presumptuous in assuming that Marshall is "gaslighting"? Do you know his heart in this? I think that this video makes beef where there is none. Maybe I'm missing something here and correct me if I'm wrong brother because we have to be brothers in Christ. God bless you.
I agree. TM never condemned the Ecclesia Dei organizations, he just said he was disappointed in their decision. These are tough times and no one has the perfect road to travel.
The exact problem is Marshall's attitude of disobedience. Exactly BECAUSE of the craziness that's going on in our Church, this is why we need both firmness in faith AND supreme obedience to the Church and Papacy. By calling for disobedience to the pope, especially in this time of great crisis and confusion, Marshall is leading people astray. Sorry to say, he is leading them to hell if he's not careful. Because, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
@@e.solberg6636 I suppose where the question lies is: with so many questions unanswered, so much ambiguity, is one called to do what a pope says if it is going to put our faith in danger. I see this as the dividing line that doesn’t need to be there. It seems to me like Marshall is saying that our faith is in danger and he’s right. And if we don’t stand up because of what is coming out of the Vatican then what will come of it? He’s asking these questions. The canon laws exist first for our salvation, but if they are not living up to this; well then this is exactly what I’m trying to bring to light in this comment.
I don’t think he’s leading people astray, and you saying that is the kind of rhetoric that perpetuates this invisible divide that isn’t actually there in my opinion. Anyways just my thoughts, God bless you.
So are you saying that the priests can’t even voice a strong opinion to the pope, even as they obediently follow the orders? Because if they are still allowed to at least speak their minds, then I agree with TM. I didn’t miss the nuances. But nuanced language is weak when you have diktats coming down at you from a horrible leader who hates you. Francis will of course ignore anything they write. So it really doesn’t matter.
In your opinion how far can Pope Francis go before priests can “disobey”? What is the line that he can’t cross regarding the Mass? Is there one? I genuinely don’t know this because I feel like no one is explaining it. No one is advocating leaving the church at this point, so i feel like we all must agree on some level. But there are definitely different degrees of frustration with the downward spiral we’re in which is causing a lot of confusion. I happen to be in TM’s camp on the level of frustration, but I do want to make sure I understand correct church teaching.
From the little I’ve seen on the subject, TM has gone the farthest on explaining what Pope Francis CAN do. He already said people may need to be ready to attend a novus ordo Mass. (For the record, I do attend one). He acknowledges that Francis can go that far. Do you agree with this? Instead of talking about what Francis is allowed to do, can we start talking about what is actual overreach when it comes to the Mass specifically?
Pope Francis, whether you like it or not, is the head of the church formed by God himself and therefore he is in the position whether you like him/it or not, because God deemed that to be. Its about obedience, you go against him and hate him and attack him and the bishops and want priests to disobey him, then you are going against God himself. I hardly agree with a lot he does and says but I will see the bigger picture and not be riled up by the anti church youtube grifters pretending they love the church. I suggest you ponder on that just for a moment. God bless
@@markharris5400 What? You didn’t answer my legitimate questions at all. I didn’t suggest that anyone be disobedient. I am questioning whether or not priests are still free to speak their minds WHILE being obedient in action. I also questioned how far Francis can go with changes to the Mass before prelates are justified in labeling him a heretic.
If you don’t have sound answers to these questions backed up by church teaching, you can move on. It is irrelevant to me how you personally choose to manage your world views.
This is literally the dumbest position in the entire comment section.
@@stephen6631 Why? Care to elaborate? I’m on pins and needles waiting for your brilliant mind to enlighten us all.
@@blondekates it was a reply to Mark. I'm not sure why it doesn't show that.
This appears to be a misrepresentation of Marshall's position? He clearly says that folks who went along with the Pope's position were also doing what they thought was best and within tradition. Just that he believed more active resistance (ie - recognize and resist) against the measures was better.
I like Dr Marshall... but i thought his "take" on the letter he read was a bit disingenuous.... that said..I can't pretend to be an expert on this subject...
Wow ! I’ve forgotten about TNT but clearly Tim Gordon hasn’t. I didn’t realize there was an issue. I assumed TNT was to be temporary and a springboard to their own platforms. I’m disappointed at the airing of dirty laundry. I thought Gordon said he promoted manliness? There’s nothing less manly than this passive -aggressive bitter ex-wife diatribe. This is not “ fraternal correction” as he claims. Two faithful men can have different perspectives with good intent. And the throw away line about how he “didn’t call him” and “blocked him on Twitter” is petty feminine nonsense that should have been left unsaid. To his credit, Marshall never put Tim’s name in his mouth once they parted. Tim should have followed suit.
This started as a debate and devolved into personal slights and cuts. Sorry you guys got divorced, try to stay amicable for your kids
😂😂😂 oh, this is good. Someone had to say it!
😂
This is what our present Pope has wanted, discord among the brethren!
This is exactly what he wanted.
It’s also the direct result of poor leadership: infighting. When there’s a power vacuum at the top and no *paternity* no masculine fatherhood, there’s just utter chaos as everyone’s just trying to figure out what to do.
Get an alpha male on the throne of Peter, and order is restored.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 couldn’t agree more
Perhaps TM went too far in his criticism of FSSP, but consider whether you went too far in your criticism of TM. At moments in this video, I felt like you were filled with hate against him. You essentially called him a protestant multiple times, and accused him of not having fully converted yet. I find it no surprise he doesn't respond to you when this is how you address him.
Agreed.
Sometimes the truth sounds like "hate" when the truth is the one thing the other person doesn't want to face or hear. He was well justified in his admonishment of Taylor.
@@Davis1967 Yes in public...How are people supposed to know they're being mislead if someone doesn't point it out publicly? The answer is they don't. Therefore, public admonishment is needed.
@@Davis1967 He did start privately and got no response. Were you listening? There is no need to go through a priest then Bishop unless you'd like to apply that same standard to Taylor Marshall regarding his commentary on the FSSP and ICK but not to my surprise, you haven't. Taylor Marshall WAS leading people to THE church, which also includes the Novus Ordo parishes but now he's leading people in the opposite direction. Like it's been said, he's falling off the right side of the bark. It is very much possible to take things too far even if you start in the right direction. Wake up.
very complicated topic. Obedience does have it's limit's and when it come's to the Mass it's tough to know where those limits are.
I dont think that it really is. The misunderstanding on what the pope can and can not do is why there so much confusion and distrust. The pope has always been free for better or worse to change liturgical discipline and restrict rites. This is clear from magisterial documents but this truth is not being told or at the very least it is being distorted for the sake of an alleged sacred tradition.
@@thunderthumbz3293
Really so every time we have a new Pope he can just makeup His own liturgy and throw every other liturgy in the garbage if he wants ??
How about scripture? Can he decide that he doesn’t like a particular verse or a particular book ? Or maybe write his own book and just insert it into the cannon ??
Where does all this end ?
Or is the Pope the custodian of Tradition whose job it is to protect it and hand down what was handed to him. ?
“It is necessary to obey a Pope in all things as long as he does not go against the universal customs of the Church, but should he go against the universal customs of the Church, he need not be followed.”
Innocent III
@@camovets5719 you're content bears little weight. Scripture and liturgy are not on the same level and therefore cannot be use to substantiate your argument in the way you tried. And to quote Innocent III? Key word is universal... that pertains to dogma and doctrine; not liturgy discipline otherwise EVERY rite but one would need to cease to exist.
@@seanmetz6616 bingo, you beat to the reply
@@seanmetz6616
Well stated.
Man U need to chill out
Tim, it is more important for all the true Catholics to be united. Read Romans 12:18 and stop picking on TM's faults. Like you, he's human. Remember also, the words of the Christ, the "speak and plank one"? ( "Do you focus on the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye or do you first deal with the plank in your own eye?") It's more important for you to be united with your brother than to be "right". Praying for you two good men to be reconciled.
@Rosalind Weeks- Tim Gordon was given an opportunity to finally answer the question as to why TNT split up. Tim had kept this subject all to himself. Now, he speaks up and shares his side. No one is perfect, Tim knows this. This is his podcast. From the start, if you'd like to listen again, Tim stated that he would enjoy having a beverage together with DTM. He has no ill will towards DTM. Not a smidgen. Relax. What the enemy has intended for evil, God will make it for good (Timothy Gordon, and DTM's friendship). Thank you Abba Father for loving each one of us as we learn to forgive, be patient with and carry each other's burdens all for your glory.
So according to Tim, we should obey the Pope even his teachings are against what the Church alway teach. I agree FSSP will use CVII and bew teachings as arguments since the fully adhere, follow and believe, thats the reason they separated from SSPX, blind obedience it doesnt matter what
Tim will obey Francis no matter how uncatholic is his orders.
He’s saying that it’s wrong to say the FSSP et all “caved in”. As laity we don’t take the same vow of obedience that the priests do. It makes it EXTREMELY hard for them to do things. Thanks to V2 we can actually have some what of a voice when it comes to things in the church and we don’t have to take the same extreme manner of obedience as the priests do. What good would it do for FSSP et all to tell the pope to f* off and to just do their own thing? That wouldn’t make them any better than the orthodox or the Protestants. They have to play the cards right. It would screw the faithful if they pulled some bs like that.
@@Jerds well following CVII is more protestant than any other thing, the church was adapted to be protestant thats why we cant follow. Its funny how we are talling about protestanta when all new teachings are protestant and not Catholic, even priest has bow they can follow if it against Christ
“You and I (assuming you’re a layman), we can say more, …Francis is the worst pope ever, BUT he STILL enjoys the office.” -Tim Gordon. 👏Well said, brother!
@@Wonderpattypatty so if you can notice and priest notice that francis is asking them to celebrate the protestant Mass should they obey?
Fantastic unpacking! They were wise as serpents and harmless as doves!
IMHO you are being overly harsh in your unnecessary attack on Taylor. I agree with your assessment of obedience. But, you dwelt on only one of the four interpretations Taylor raised to beat him up. He expressed which of his conjectures he supported. He admitted he could be wrong. He stated more than once he could be wrong. He stated he knew he would be alienating people he knows. Those who listened know he was presenting his opinion. From my perspective all I see is an ax you want to grind. You list several personal reasons you are disappointed in Taylor. Not sure it builds you up to tear down a personal adversary. I appreciate your knowledge and wisdom, but this type of diatribe does more harm to you than good. I recall a podcast wherein you lost it and used poor choices of words online that if you were my child's teacher, I'd demand a formal public apology. I've never seen Taylor put something online that I would not approve for my child to view. I had agreed with what you were expressing, but was embarrassed by your manner. You raised very good insights in your read of the subject letter, but they are your opinion, too. Neither of you have verified your interpretations with the authors. Both of you entitled to your opinions. Too bad you drowned yours in an attack on Taylor.
So beautifully put. Agree with your take 99% and couldn't have put it better.
Period, Taylor always says he is not perfect and to pray for the Pope, what do people be hearing 🤔
Marshall is off the rails ... thise who REFUSE to see that Marshall has made himself the secret voice of the RAD edge of SSPX are either naive or complicit.
R. P. Non sequitur
@@r.pronovost7490 Even if so, people need to think for themselves and choose wat is right, I listen to both of them to get a balanced review
Tim, we need unity in Holy Mother church. How do you think we can achieve this?
Sorry, someone needs to take a stand. Otherwise, what is the whole point of preserving the Magisterium. That power and authority are meant to be used justly and for the benefit of the faithful. This is a clear abuse of power if the intention is to suppress a carism to which the Traditional Faith is connected too. The Pope has Universal Power, but he does not have arbitrary power. His power and authority is supposed to be used to preserve the traditional teachings, doctrines, and dogmas of the church. This does not do that.
Yes, the Pope's authority is to be like salt....a preservative for the Holy faith, teachings and traditions. Sadly, since V2, caustic acid has been used instead. Under P. Francis the quantity of acid has increased exponentially. 💔
I don’t believe for a moment Taylor Marshall sacrificed what was true for what was popular.
Taylor Marshall takes matters seriously. This pope complicates matters, enjoys making a mess and confusing people, stating dogma accurately but then acting contrary to his statements is deceitful, devious. Can one be obedient to one of ho I’d leading us into idolatry? Sodomy? Serious error such as Jesus sinned; that Our Lady doesn’t set appointments? Isn’t mediatrix? That it’s ok to be gay because God made you that way? You’ve got to be kidding.
Yeah he had to have misspoke there. I don’t doubt “What’s popular” had an influence on what Mr Marshall wanted to do videos on but I’m sure he was still going to give his real true opinion and stance and what he thought was true about the given topic.
Hopefully Tim here just meant he didn’t agree with doing videos on certain topics just because they were popular and not that Marshall was actually stating things he doesn’t really believe for the sake of popularity.
@@HueyPPLong That's a fair take.
@John Holmes "Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.” ~ St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: “The Book of Obedience”, Chapter 1: “There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope”)
Hard pill to swallow, man. I know. Same for me. But this is what being Roman Catholic is....trust and obey Christ will guide things to His Will....still hard. I have a naturally rebellious spirit and have gone down the radtrad road myself into utter confusion.
It comes down to are you REALLY a Roman Catholic? Do you TRULY believe the RCC is the One and True Church of Jesus Christ? Hard times, hard questions.
"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not." ~ Matthew 23:1-3
@@pennsyltuckyreb9800 There is no such thing as a “Satan Pope”. That’s an oxymoron. St. Catherine of Sienna’s opinion notwithstanding, this is incorrect. Consider Saint and great doctor of the Church, Robert Bellarmine, on the question of a manifestly heretical “pope”:
“A Pope who is a manifest heretic automatically ceases to be a Pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately LOSE ALL JURISDICTION.”
"If any one shall say, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be condemned, or without sin omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed by any pastor of the churches into other new ones; let him be anathema."
(Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon XIII)
This trumps the Pope's moto proprio, which acts beyond the Pope's supreme authority and contrary to the purpose of his authority.
Don't tell that to the fake Catholics here, they think we owe blind obedience to a pope even if he trashes what previous Councils have affirmed.
Great passage here, I will have to think about this. It's important on two points, it Carries more weight than the Papal Bull Qou Primum, and it you rightly point out, the Pope cannot act contrary to the purpose of his authority, care for souls. Tim, whom I respect is missing this critical point. Vatican I assumed a pontiff acting in good faith FOR the savior of souls.
Yes, Quo Primum was an enforcement of the Canon of Trent rather than a stand-alone document.
And Vatican I explicitly laid out the presuppositions and purpose of supreme jurisdiction (ref. Session II;
Session IV, Chap. IV).
It's ironic that Tim Gordon will concede that the Pope doesn't have supreme jurisdiction to demand that we mow the Pope's grass, because that is not the purpose of his authority. How much less is it the purpose of his authority to impose a Mass that is not a received and approved rite of the Church (original public meaning of Trent) and restrict or abrogate the traditional rites!
So does the Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon XIII trump Quo Primum's restictions? And who does the approving after the receiving? Because many were received and approved before Quo Primum...
"This new rite alone is to be used unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago, or unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind which has been continuously followed for a period of not less than 200 years, in which most cases We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom. However, if this Missal, which we have seen fit to publish, be more agreeable to these latter, We grant them permission to celebrate Mass according to its rite, provided they have the consent of their bishop or prelate or of their whole Chapter, everything else to the contrary notwithstanding.
All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure."
-Quo Primum
In defense of Michael Matt's, "Unite the Clans", i believe he has come a long way toward a more well rounded attitude and he also attends a latin mass at a parish in which the priest also says NO masses. He's not as SSPX minded the way so many think.
That’s really good to hear!
Thats his problem, his mind is not traditional but only conservative
@@ajuanls I- honestly don’t understand how Michael Matt is not traditional. Like, I’m genuinely curious how that works. Care to elaborate?
Very sad. Taylor Marshall just read a letter from the FFSP to Pope Francis and said it sounded weak which I agree with Taylor Marshall
I think the letter was a bit weak but what everyone seems to be missing here is that this occupant of the chair of Peter doesn’t give a rodents behind about tradition. He was put in there by mccarick, Daneels, Casper and others to crush tradition and he’s not letting up. Mission accomplished
Hi Timothy: I like both your and Taylor Marshall’s work. Please consider if there is someway that you and he can reconcile. The times right now are so dark that we need the forces of light and truth to combine forces as much as possible. We do not need to be fighting among ourselves if at all possible. I love your work. God bless you! Signed a Protestant fan.
I don't "cave in to the Pope", I just ignore him when he acts in heretical fashion. I follow Christ's teachings and 2,000 years of tradition and have been a practicing Catholic for 77 years. However, I speak up and know that Christ is head of the Church and pretty soon He will intervene and his Mother will do a good house cleaning. Only Divine intervention will help us deal with this evil mess .
People need to go to the Easton rites of the Catholic Church. The Roman rite has changed all the sacraments including the bishop consecration.. Christ will not betray his church in the gates of hell will never prevail however we will be reduced to a few. The only Catholic Churches remaining that have the four marks of the faith- (which is absolutely necessary as these four marks are dogmatic and traditional "Catholic" grassroots churches founded by men and not by Christ could never fulfill them as it's in direct disobedience to Christ and the deposit of faith) is in eastern Catholic churches. It is true they might go along with some of the modernism but they have their own canon law, they elect their own bishops and patriarchs. They have a completely separate government from Rome. SSPX and other traditional groups are definitely not the answer as they are in schism. They were not called by the church. So it's time for Latin Catholics to get over the fact that the mass can be done in the vernacular and not Latin and they need to get over the cultural differences in the Eastern rites if they really love Christ and want to be in his church. You are both right, and you are both wrong. FSSP has the new rite of ordination, sorry all the new sacraments have been compromised. Invalidity is a major concern. However, SSPX is in schism. But Francis is an Anti-pope- both of you are being half honest with yourselves. I agree we must do what the church prescribed for us- but if you know better, you only can go to Eastern Catholic Rites in these times..Yes, Taylor is mistaken, but your saying it is the same church is ridiculous. The Sacrament of Extreme Unction was completely removed and replaced by a community prayer- So now you are saying the Catholic Church is able to destroy one of the sacraments given by Christ? Of course not. The Church remains in Eastern Rites. "traditional Catholic groups" are not the answer nor you placating the new church -which is not the Catholic Church. Vatican II clearly states Heresy, it is a false council we had 18-20 false councils before Vatican II and 41 anti-popes before Vatican II. Let's be intellectually honest when we speak. Both Rev. Sylvester Berry (1920s) and Archbishop Fulton Sheen (1940s) stated the only way the devil is going to bring on the Apocalypse is that the devil creates a false church, with a false hierarchy with false sacraments but will have everyone believe they are Catholic. They are not wrong, you and Taylor are wrong. You have to stop pretending this is not possible and that we are not in that position now. You two bickering does absolutely nothing for anyone. Taylor has to stop pretending that creating new churches and breaking the Four Marks (which are DOGMAS) is within the mind of the church. Both of you have the intellect and platform to do real good for the church. However, you are both defending the indefensible, wasting your gift from God at this point out of hubris and misguiding souls who deeply want to be Catholic.
Regarding Vatican one, Newman’s commentary is helpful in clarify the doctrine of infallibility:
"a Pope is not infallible in his laws, nor in his commands, nor in his acts of state, nor in his administration, nor in his public policy" (Cardinal Newman, Difficulties of Anglicans, London, 1876, p.256)."
And commenting on the four conditions:
"These conditions of course contract the range of his infallibility most materially. Hence Billuart speaking of the Pope says, “Neither in conversation, nor in discussion, nor in interpreting Scripture or the Fathers, nor in consulting, nor in giving his reasons for the point which he has defined, nor in answering letters, nor in private deliberations, supposing he is setting forth his own opinion, is the Pope infallible,” t. ii. p. 110. And for this simple reason, because on these various occasions of speaking his mind, he is not in the chair of the universal doctor." Cardinal Newman Citing the Pastoral of the Swiss Bishops on Papal infallibility after it was defined.
Also obedience to the pope is not absolute. That’s the huge error of a lot of people to exaggerate it to the point of not being catholic.
St. Thomas Aquinas "if the pope is endangering the faith a subject can resist and even publicly rebuke him" (Summa Theologica, II-II, 33, 4, 2.)
Pope Pascal III commanded the bishops of Germany to hand over their property to the emperor. The German bishops didn't and he publicly thank them afterwards for disobeying him, and knowing where their true duty lay.
Another when Pope Honorius commanded Saint Sophronius to stop correcting heresy, Saint Sophronius, disobeyed him, did the exact opposite and devoted even more energy to rebuke heresy and especially the pope's role in it. Pope Honorius, who was anathematized by the 3rd council of Constantinople "as a heretic." A heretical pope can reign.
Pope Boniface VIII summoned Pietro Angelerio (former Pope Celestine V) to Rome. He didn’t obey him. He is a canonized Saint.
These are real popes giving commands and they being disobedyed.
Your quote of St. Thomas from the Summa Theologica is not an accurate quote. In this passage he does not use the word "resist", he only uses "rebuke".
Also, I'm not sure why you included those Newman quotes. Tim is not claiming the Pope to be infallible in his disciplinary decisions. I'm not even sure if "infallible" is the right word here since we are not talking about teaching but prudential judgments.
@@timmysand08 Hi Tim,
Thanks for your message. Thank you for telling me that. I was unaware. Can you provide a link that shows it in the original Latin.
But I have to say it does not make a difference, you can resist a pope. St. Paul Resisted Peter to the face. And many theologians teach it.
How is Taylor's video saying their response to Pope Francis was 'weak' any different to your videos criticizing James Martin SJ or Bishop Barron? He never said anyone should disobey the pope. He provided a commentary and an opinion on a letter, as 'Dad on a web cam with no authority' (as he refers to himself frequently). You've done the same often. His opinion was that the letter should have been stronger and he explained how it was weak. Do you disagree and think the letter was 100% on the money?
is this a serious question? I critique a man on his actions and Taylor critiqued HUNDREDS on them from one letter.
It's really not that hard, guys.
He critiqued their letter. Lest we forget you critiquing the great Archbishop Vigano and his letter/s not so long ago either. Doesn't seem so clever now with mandatory vaccines coming in.
@@RulesForRetrogrades Tim..I don't know you but you seem hurt..If that is the case, just admit it...don't try to get even..Why would T.M not return phone calls? Seems pretty drastic if he knew your daughter was having surgery..Doesn't sound like he operates.Must be more to the story..
We're taught that the Pope is not infallible unless he speaks from Chair of Peter. Does this have any bearing on these issues?
That is a fantastic point, but l think this action is prompted by decrees to the Bishops. With the power of the Bishops being obedient to their lmmediate supervisor, it's like a wall of water moving throughout the Church. I think that's how it's happening. Someone correct me if l have it wrong.
I would think that even though the pope may not speak infallibly in most cases, he still retains authority.
On fire as always bro hello from Australia
Wow - Such a bitter divorce between Taylor Marshall and Tim Gordon!
The only bitterness comes from Tim, he's acting like a jilted girlfriend. Marshall doesn't talk about him at all.
Hi Tim, I recently started following you and also Taylor's channels in an effort to learn from people more versed than me on the crisis that we are going through in the Catholic church. As a man of faith that tries to follow God faithfully, I'd want to share a bit of perspective on the works that both of you do for the cause of God, as seen by an outsider. Disagreements are at the essence of human nature, while I like your approach on inviting Taylor to a friendly debate, it is my impression that the most important matter to discuss is uniting forces in order to help guiding other lay people not getting lost in the confusing dogmatic teachings we are seeing in these late times. When we get to see our Lord face to face, I know he will not ask us if we agreed with FSSP or ICKSP position in respect to the pope, but what we did evangelizing and saving other souls.
It's hard to unite when they have different opinions on some red-line topics.
So sad what this Pope is doing to Our Lord's Church.
Still , God is in control.
Praying ....
Thank you, Tim! Thanks for reading that letter and picking it apart. Very helpful and VERY CLEAR! Makes me scratch my head at where TM was coming from. This msg - your msg - is very necessary.
I’m glad you made this video, Tim. I read the document from FSSP via an email called “The Missive.” Then I started to watch Taylor’s video and stopped because it sounded like he was talking about a completely different document. I thought the document was masterful. Very much “turning the other cheek” while standing firm. What did I miss?
You didn’t miss anything!
I forgot to mention The Missive email included a small intro which said that the document was intended for the Bishops of France and was not sent to the Church at large. Again, I thought that was cool. You know it will be read at the Vatican:)
Thanks Tim (and behind the camera Steph), I totally get it now. So important to know where you stand and stay there strong and sure.
Honestly, I think you’re both better as “stand alone” shows. Both of you have very particular personalities that never were really that compatible.
Thank you. Agree
I respectfully disagree. It's like the Siskel and Elbert,but as it may make better showmanship it doesn't always make for growing respect. How honest can you be when you're doing it for showmanship and not Catholicism? That's why even though I thought the show was better with both it's better to turn away as it is just a breeding ground for sin
You shine more now that you are not on TNT!
I felt uncomfortable at times watching TNT. Never understood why. Genuiness is golden. I smelled a rat when the idol was thrown in the river and Dr TM had the exclusive video. Later he revealed that he bought Alexander's plane ticket to Rome. I'm glad Alexander threw the demon idol out of the church and into the river but I don't like being deceived. I don't like the story being manipulated by the reporter.
May the Lord forgive me if I am detracting.
@@lalvee7041 I still watch Dr Taylor Marshall, but I agree, I felt the same way.
@@St.Augustine4006 I agree too. I think Taylor was just a bit more intemidating with Tim. I could see the auquardness in Tim's face if the "mighty" Dr. Marshall. Still watch both of them though.
I have been smelling this stench from Taylor Marshall for a while now… and in charity I have been giving him the honest benefit of the doubt (unconsciously avoiding your talks as a result). But my son is a priest of the FSSP, and this hit me, at that time he made that show, me very personally! But I ignored that and just started to “delete” Taylor from my “playlist “.
Honestly, I just stumbled upon your response and I thank you! For not only standing up to the FSSP and my obedient son, but mostly for standing up to the Truths of our Catholic Faith. I wholeheartedly agree that Taylor will “fall” is he doesn’t change his ways.
You can both be wrong and still be Saints in the end 😊 I appreciate your sincerity, stay True 🙏
EXCELLENT POINT!!! Even the canonized popes weren't right about everything.
Tim....I watched Taylor's show on the FSSP/ICK cave- in and, at the time, I was in tune with what he was saying...for the most part. Then, I watched your show and found myself reconsidering and changing my position. Both you and Taylor are in unison about how terrible Francis is as Pope and how caustic he is to the Church. You both stir emotion in your audiences when you bring light to the train wreck that is Pope Francis. As I thought about why I was agreeing with a lot of what Taylor said in his show, I realized I was feeding my vitriol over the injustices of Pope Francis by chewing on the "chum" that was tossed out (FSSP/ICK). I humbly say that I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person. However, I was being intellectually lazy and allowing my emotions to steer my boat when I was aligning myself with the "cave-in". Also, although I am adamant that the TLM should not be abrogated, I don't attend a TLM parish. This lack of understanding and historical knowledge of the TLM made it easier for me to see FSSP/ICK as groups who were supposed to be strong, but seemed to present themselves in a weak position in their letter. I did, however, unlike Taylor, appreciate much of the strategy of their letter, even though some of the phrases were a bit too flowery and rang hollow in sincerity. I'm of the camp...say what you mean, tactfully. Don't blow sunshine up someone's bung if you're just using it as a writing or speaking device. Just my opinion. Anyway, I appreciate your passion in exposing the danger of being driven by emotion only. As you indicated, we wouldn't be chafed and briused by the plenary powers of a pope who was promoting the Truth and Tradition of our Catholic faith. But, can we say the rules should change now that we are being bloodied by Francis? Good video, Tim. Thanks for your insight.
I have often felt uncomfortable with TM. Now I think I know why. I picked up his overweening tendency to want to be ‘popular.’ I think I totally qualify as a “Retrograde & Parish Orphan.” Thanks Tim.
I find TM to have an unfortunate condescending attitude despite him often making valid and relevant comment.
No one should follow the orders of a leader that we know by our well formed conscience is wrong. That applies to everyone who takes an oath, including our military, police, doctors, politicians. Following orders from the top has put our world in a disastrous state. The only thing necessary for evil to take over is for good people to do nothing.
so no leadership then, nice
Satan loves confusion and bickering. Division is his weapon of choice these days
Tim, do you think the Pope has the authority to completely abrogate the TLM? Does he have the authority to completely abrogate the NO and start a new Mass of his own from scratch?
Tim thinks that he does but he is incorrect. He is also incorrect in insisting on how far obedience would go. He seems to forget that it is the duty to resist wrong things to the face.
With regard to these questions, people say that I'm ignorant and apathetic, but I don't know about that, and frankly, I don't care (just kidding - that's an old joke). Seriously, though, yours are far and away the BEST points raised in this entire discussion. As far as I know you're the first person to extend the issues to their logical conclusion and lay them out in stark terms. Great job! I'm no theologian, but it's obvious to me that your questions are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. I think you should post your points until you get an answer from Tim -- maybe not in the comments of this podcast (the comments have gotten very crowded) but if you catch another of Tim's podcasts right after he posts it he might see it. BTW, he also has a twitter and a facebook page. And you've led me to a couple of basic questions of my own, which are really just post scripts to your excellent insights. What are the essential elements that are required to make a mass valid, and where in Church documents are they defined? Got any info on those?
@@stephencuskley5251 - Hey thanks! We are living in crazy times and I appreciate the debate around these issues. I struggle a bit with both sides of the aisle in taking things to the logical conclusions. Hard to do on a YT thread but I figured I would throw those out there in hopes he’ll tackle those on a future episode. I believe there is literature out there on what is the essentials needed for a Mass. it’s been years since I’ve read up on that specifically. I’ll see if I can dig up something. In the meantime the Catholic Encyclopedia may be a good start.
Im sorry to say, this just sounds uncharitable and like a bit of an emotinal vent against your former friend. I disagree with some of Taylor's interpretation, but he is most definitely not acting Protestant or Lutheran by expressing his disappointment in how certain church officials addressed themselves to Pope Francis. Let's keep it civil and not air your private greivances in public. It's distasteful at best, detraction or calumny at worst.
I thought it was pretty smart of them to use Francis’ language like “dialogue” and quoting from his own encyclicals. If this is a war, that was strategic communication.
In the final analysis it is a strategic failure.
The flaw in this thinking is that leftists like Francis care about the truth & not being hypocritical. They don’t .
They only care about winning.
Winning to Francis and the modernist NO Church is when The Faith is destroyed.
For The Faith to be destroyed, The TLM , must be destroyed.
@@camovets5719 This person gets it. The people thinking that "using Francis' own language against him" is a win are the same naive and shortsighted conservatives who think donating to AOC's grandma is pwning the left. You're playing INTO their hands.
I think you extrapolated this in by far the most uncharitable way possible.
I don’t agree with you I think like Taylor Marshall and I’m a cradle Catholic going for more than 15 years to ICKSP I can honestly say I’m so disappointed and disgusted about this letter. They had a chance to stand up to this apostate with the truth and resist him to his face like Saint Paul did with Saint Peter. I think you are wrong and you just have something against Taylor but he is not the only one thinking that
Egos involved here!
Man that was a brutal analysis and something I had suspected but couldn't substantiate. "Throwing chum in the water". Yikes!!! Thanks for the video as I can relate to your sentiment about cradle Catholics having a general holy fear for the holy office as we should. It needs emphasis in this difficult time of low charity towards our neighbor and the seat of Peter.
"the Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls." Keywords: "Care of souls". Anything that falls outside of caring for souls is cause for concern. For example: Pachamama. Statements left open to individual interpretation regarding the faith.. Galatians 1:8 always comes to mind. Ehh what do I know. I know nothing..
Perfectly said, and care for souls is what is getting lost here. The Pope cannot create a heratical mass, he cannot command you to do wrong. By the same token, he can't suppress the TLM, how is that honest good faith "care for souls"? To suppress the TLM and to replace it with the qualitatively lesser NO mass (still valid mass) is not caring for souls. He is acting outside his jurisdiction with this move. It doesn't pass the basic logic test. TLM never was nor can it be abrogated, it was valid in 1600 its valid now, can't be anything otherwise. To shut it away is to destroy part of the faith, again outside any Pope's jurisdiction.
@@ThomisticAmerican13FOX I heard a sermon by Monseñor Isidro Puente couple weeks ago. He said it's best to storm out of Mass than to be complicit in the Liturgical abuse. I never thought about it in the manner he said it. I always wondered why I felt unease, when I saw odd stuff happening in the Mass I would attend. The last time I went to St Micheals Cathedral, the priest sat down while the lay people administered the Holy Eucharist. I have never seen that before in my life.. I'll rewind a bit. I was told tough luck," We can't give a letter for religious exemption or write one saying I attend at St Michaels" I let them know I will not come back and stormed out. That past Sunday is when I saw the priest sit down.. I stood my ground and have been terminated for refusing to stab myself with experimental therapeutic. I worked for hospital system doing I&T from home..
@@ur1man Yes I agree, the lay eucharistic ministers would have been the breaking point for me as well. None of that type of stuff far too common at typical NO parish properly orients the faithful. The liturgy is supposed to have embedded components of teaching the faith by doing. The TLM is not only reverent, it reinforces the core dogmas by the way it is done. This is the whole point, the Pope by suppressing the TLM and leaving in its place an objectively lesser form, not as effective in teaching the faith because it is so incongruent with tradition, is akin to taking sacred tradition and closing it away in a closet. Yes the Pope has universal jurisdiction in matters of discipline and liturgy falls into the category, but with a huge caveat. The TLM being so long running In the church contains within itself tradition. The Pope essentially can only ever make "organic" changes to it. He cant change the dogmas within it, he cant make you celebrate a mass incongruent with dogma or opposed to it. Tim, who I respect, is missing that point. The Pope is only exercising his jurisdiction when it is truly for care of souls, this is anything but that. Vatican I assumes a good faith actor on chair of Peter. Tim wants to see a Vatican document addressing this issue giving us an "out" per see. You won't find it, but no matter. The Pope's actions are obviosuly out of bounds here, pretty easy to discern that.
I applaud you for defending your bodily autonomy and defending the dignity of the lord by removing yourself from a questionable mass. I believe surely, this courage will be noted by the Father.
The TM seems to be the only place where the Church is burgeoning and blooming. The devil of course wanted it destroyed.
@@lucillejerome5511 I have been going to Latin Mass ever since. I could care less now. Yes I am disappointed but God has better opportunities for me elsewhere.
I truly think Taylor is hurting.
We must pray for him, both of yall have done great great things. I give yall credit for joining and truly loving the TLM. With so much going on in the church,to see both of yall split, really makes me wonder, it hurts, that TLM lovers can seperate in friendship.
The spear really hurts my heart. I can only imagine the pain Taylor must be feeling. But we never should separate or divide ourselves. When people hurt we say things to hurt back...its our weakness, it's not fair to attack a person in sorrow and in pain. The pope has truly hurt millions on people. I pray for this frances. But please, dont think this break up is something anyone RESPECTS, or take sides. We Catholics are not happy with the pope. When the pope teaches or lead us to sin we must not be obedient. We are obedient to Jesus first and foremost.
Exactly!!! The Dallas bishop is really bad and is still pushing COVID restrictions, etc. Give Marshall a break. He is discouraged. He is close the edge of hopelessness. Pray for him.
I agree we need to pray for Taylor. Honestly, we need to pray for each other. This is a very difficult time to be a Catholic. I'm an invested and educated Catholic who loves his faith, and I find it hard to know whether the SSPX is justified or not. I think Tim makes many good arguments, but the other side has good arguments as well. I think I have to side with Tim on this because his side has the stronger case, but I understand the struggle on the other side. If that makes me a cuck, so be it. Seek the truth my friends. Don't be satisfied with anything else.
I love both of you. You bring a passion that I appreciate Tim but it's obvious your are wounded. God will repay but we must surrender to God and pray for those who hurt us, then ask for healing for damaged emotions. Trust and pray for all on both sides and do what God has equipped you to do. HE/JESUS will work it out because HE is the only one who can. I agree with Taylor on much of his analysis of the FSSP/ICK letter. You also have good points but............
I thank you for this Tim, it provides much needed clarity. God Bless you and your family.
Guys wake up Satan is splitting the good people up. Tim you and Taylor are included in this pray for help in finding the truth and worrying about our eternal souls
I’m so glad I saw this tonight Tim… Very thoughtful and honest but mostly educational.
Thank you! God Bless🙏🏻
Hi Steph, Abby et al❤️
Needless attack on TM...love both and I miss TNT...
I’ve been waiting for this explanation for such a long time now, but to be honest, I think I am more confused now than I was before! I’m very simple and can’t seem to understand what the difference is in all of the societies. Maybe one day you can make a video explaining what the difference is between these different societies so we can understand what and where the problems are. Thanks Tim for all you do and God bless you.
Diane, you are not simple at all! I will help you with what little I know and hopefully someone will correct me if I make a mistake. Basically, after Vatican ll , the Latin mass was pushed to the side and ,as a Boomer, I witnessed the intense hatred the bishops had for this Liturgy. I was a true parish orphan, as my parents followed the Latin masses from parish to parish until they all disappeared . Some people in the church tried to keep it alive,like archbishop LeVevre in France. Over time, the few priests who remained collected together into these societies, only some of which were given church approval. Some were not given approval because the either thought the seat of Peter was left vacant after the attempt to squash the latin mass or that Vatican ll was an invalid council. Hope this helps.
Thank you Timothy, I often wondered what happened.
I watch TM and agree with a lot of what he says but fell into the 25% on his cave in poll. I attend a FSSP parish. I haven’t seen much of your content but your thoughts on this video are basically right in line with mine. It’s nice to hear a voice of reason since TM’s (vocal) audience seems to be getting more extreme right along with him. I find the behind the scenes glimpses you provided very interesting.
You can be obedient without grovelling, and begging, and using weak childish language. I agree with T Marshall the wording was a bit off. FSSP took this Papa - child analogy way too far.
@@joealger3658 agreed
It is very sad Tim you & Taylor , wish you could be friends once again.
Follow Absp. Vigano as he names names and acknowledged the pope to be apostate.
It's a shame Tim has hard feelings towards his former friend dr Marshall
Thank you Timothy, I needed to hear this today.
Tim Gordon has become the Skip Bayless of Catholicism
Is Taylor is the Colin Cowherd?
This smacks of sour grapes Tim. Like anyone else the pope/bishops can choose to do right or wrong. The laity has the right to resist evil or lackluster clergy giving away their heritage without being called disobedient. This includes the pope. Can. 221 §1. The Christian faithful can legitimately vindicate and defend the rights which they possess in the Church in the competent ecclesiastical forum according to the norm of law.
This was really helpful. Thank you so much. I agree with your critique of the letter. God bless you.
Hello Tim! Your a Good Person thanks for all your work! God bless you and your family ✝️👍🏼✝️
I appreciate your content, but is it right to refer to your appearances on Dr. Marshall’s show as a “partnership?” It appears from the outside that you were a frequent guest on his show, but it seems like quite the stretch to portray your presence on his show as equal. I don’t know what kind of agreement you had with Dr. Marshall, but claiming an equal partnership with him which soured due to your righteous indignation over how he managed his content seems to be an exaggeration and disingenuous. Though I thank you and commend you for your own quality content, save for what appears to be a sanctimonious smear piece on Dr. Marshall.
We were partners. Marshall himself said so. But you’re right, it was his channel and he can decide who is on and when! I was under contract with him for a year.
Thank You so much for Your work. I'm so confused about what to believe and how to behave. Could You please address how this situation corresponds to times of St. Athanasius? I frequently hear it from my trad friends as an example and justification for resisting current Pope.
St Athanasius was a great theologian in the 3 hundreds. He, almost singlehandedly, defeated the first great heresy that wanted to deny the divinity of Jesus. But he had to go against almost all of the Church leaders...he was banished
(excommunicated) by the "pope of the day" and almost killed by others
'of the faith'. He could not go along with authority when it went against the true gospel.
SSPX and FSSP both have valuable roles to play. While we may have to choose sides between them, but that doesn't mean we must abjure the other one.
Yes! The infighting among the trad movement is unsustainable and only makes the TLM look more toxic than healthy
Well done