Off-Grid Garage
Off-Grid Garage
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The impossible Gobelpower DIY Kit. Unfinished product or am I just unlucky?
I really wanted to show you the BEST DIY battery box kit out in the market, using a 200A JK Inverter-BMS, DC circuit breaker and a fantastic quality of material choice and design. At least that was my expectation...
I was always a big supporter of Gobelpower and was very exciting, that they sent two of the new DIY Kit battery boxes with JK Inverter BMS so quickly. Maybe a bit to quick.
So, after making this video, it turned out, they did send me two DIY kits from their first batch to test. They just didn't tell me that🤪
In the next video, I will show you how to build this battery correctly, even though there are still some issues with holes not lining up and forgotten parts not been included in the box.
Well, this video was already uploaded and they have to suck it up for now. I'm sure they will improve and also now have a checklist so nothing will be forgotten any more. And a manual... gosh, how good would that DIY Kit be with instructions how to build it.
Gobelpower DIY Kit. It is a DIY project, so...
off-grid-garage.com/diy-kits/
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***** These are the batteries you are looking for *****
🔋➡EVE LF280/304 LiFePO4 cells 3.2V/280+304Ah: off-grid-garage.com/batteries/
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⚡➡Cables, Inverters and Electronics: off-grid-garage.com/electronics/
The Sunfunkit DIY battery. Great product to build your own 12V battery. Use OGGA at checkout to get 6% off. More info here: off-grid-garage.com/diy-kits/
Video review: czcams.com/video/lpn6m2wNwVA/video.html
Best prices for Victron gear in Australia: Auto Parts Co has you covered.
www.autopartsco.com.au/?pd_products%5Bquery%5D=victron&pd_products%5Bpage%5D=5
(they have 4WD parts and accessories too)
Take a live sneak peek at the Off-Grid-Garage in the Victron VRM World (link at top of the page):
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Here is my Tesla referral link, if you want to buy any Tesla accessories or even order a vehicle. This is a great way to support my channel. Thanks a lot to everyone who have used it so far 🙏 www.tesla.com/en_au/referral/stefan96963
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zhlédnutí: 9 272

Video

JK Inverter BMS Frontpanel for Seplos Mason 280. But wait...
zhlédnutí 9KPřed 12 hodinami
This new front panel is supposed to replace the original front of the Seplos Mason 280 DIY Kit and will enable you to install the JK Inverter BMS in this battery box. I ordered two of these panels to upgrade both of my Mason battery boxes. The BMS, communication board and display are fitting perfectly behind the new panel, so let's mount it on the battery case and see how it looks like... Wait,...
Network Cabinet ready, power and network connected. Then this happened....
zhlédnutí 11KPřed 16 hodinami
These are the finale steps in installing the new network cabinet in the Off-Grid Garage. Most of the cabling is done and we can finally connect the cabinet to the DC-DC converter in the battery shelf. The first lights are flickering in the cabinet, it looks good. While tightening some nuts on the fuse block, I could feel something weird though. Of course, this happens AFTER everything is connec...
Boost converters, fuse block, wrong connectors, first test. How everything comes together.
zhlédnutí 14KPřed 21 hodinou
I'm making good progress in the design and assembly of the network cabinet. The two boost converters are being connected to the fuse block, I mounted a 120mm fan inside the cabinet and installed an air filter at the front of the cabinet. It is almost time for a first test... if there wouldn't be a samll issue with the round connectors. Boost converters 12V to 24/36/48V and up to 20A: off-grid-g...
Off-Grid Network Cabinet Power Supply. This was not my day...
zhlédnutí 14KPřed dnem
I was maybe a bit too excited about having all the components ready to be mounted inside the new network cabinet. A bit more planning would have helped me in the end and saved me some time. But mounting all these exciting devices to bring power to my network cabinet was far more fun than screwing a simple aluminium backplate in place, right?! I really should have started with the back panel...😅...
Getting ready for Solar Winter! Every little bit helps... And why I hate MC4 connectors!😡
zhlédnutí 25KPřed 14 dny
It's that time of the year again! No, I'm not talking about Christmas, but Solar Winter Time!. When every kWh counts to make it through the day. So far, I had no real issues coming into May and not using any grid power. BUT, I had some help from all the spare and test batteries which were still charged for storage, like 50-60%SOC. Whenever I needed more energy than I had, I just connected these...
Gobelpower 12V/280Ah Battery on the testbench. Apparently waterproof 💦🔋
zhlédnutí 17KPřed 14 dny
This is the new Gobelpower 12V LiFePO4 battery with 280Ah of capacity and 3.5kWh of stored energy. It has some interesting features I want to show you. Like the capability to series connect 4 of these batteries to build a powerful 48V battery. Or the IPx6 rating... wait! Let me refine that point: The lid, terminals and vent valve are IPx6 rated. In the video, you will see why I'm so specific wi...
Everything is changing in the Off-Grid Garage. Just kidding... Am I?
zhlédnutí 14KPřed 21 dnem
Today's video will be the start of a new series of... different videos here on the Off-Grid Garage CZcams Channel. I call it the 'Garage-Transformation' Series. It will be a big project so you will see such videos from time to time... In this first video, I remove some of the existing roof insulation (very yucky and disgusting!). The roof underneath looks so clean, I really like it. I also buil...
EVE MB31 314Ah Cell Test and Review. Have I gotten selected cells to show on the channel?
zhlédnutí 17KPřed 28 dny
Here is the quick and short video with the test results of the EVE MB31 cells, as I promised😉 Both, the MB30 and the MB31 are awesome batteries, so which one to choose... I really don't know. I think at the end of the day, it does not matter and solely comes down to the price. The EVE cells will last a very long time with thousands of cycles. Do we have to compress them for a long life or not? ...
Brand-new EVE MB30 and MB31 from QSO on the testbench. These are the cells you want! 🔥🆕🔋
zhlédnutí 24KPřed měsícem
This was a very quick and direct delivery from QSO directly to the Off-Grid Garage 😄 They delivered the brand-new EVE MB30 and MB31 cells for me to test and review. Both LiFePO4 models come with either 306Ah and 10.000 cycles (MB30) or 314Ah and 8000 cycles (MB31). While we are charging the MB30 for its first test, we are having a look at the specifications of both cells and, oh boy, have they ...
Installing the JK-BMS in a Seplos MASON DIY Box? Well, it's not that easy... but here is how!
zhlédnutí 15KPřed měsícem
I'm pulling the Seplos Mason Battery Boxes out of the corner. Today, I want to replace the Seplos BMS V1 with a JK-BMS. This seems to be a challenging mission as nothing seems to fit. All mounting options and cutouts are different, and we also need to make a big opening for the JK communication ports. Not to mention the question on how to install a JK-display in the front panel... Thankfully, w...
Inaccurate SOC calculation of the Seplos BMS V3. Here is what I found...
zhlédnutí 11KPřed měsícem
This morning, the battery was fairly low in SOC and I thought, lets discharge it all the way and see what happens with the SOC calculation at this low state of charge. Well, what I found just confirmed my suspicion I had for a while: the accurate calculation stops at certain point at low and high SOC, while the battery keeps charging and discharging. Therefore, the BMS drifts away from the real...
Back to the Seplos, Part I. Testing the new Firmware 0.7 on Seplos BMS V3.0. Fixes everything?
zhlédnutí 14KPřed měsícem
Today, we are going to revisit the #Seplos #BMS V3.0 with the new firmware #update 0.7. I show in all details what to consider when upgrading the firmware and paralleling the BMS afterwards. I also 'clone' all settings from one BMS to the other two, to make them all the same. The older firmware version had some issues with calculating the SOC when the battery was either full or empty and also d...
The 100 Balance BMS with 1A Active Balancer and Wifi. A true JK Competitor?
zhlédnutí 33KPřed měsícem
In this comprehensive test and review, I'm sharing my experience with the 100Balance BMS. I saw this online and wanted it in my garage for testing. This Daly-style BMS has a 1A active balancer, Bluetooth and Wifi, RS485 and CAN communication for your inverter and it can handle 100A. First thing which came to my mind was: 'Do we have a JK competitor here?' All the specs and features looked good,...
Why Sodium Batteries will not replace Lithium. AI powered FAQ and my personal outlook and verdict🧂🔋
zhlédnutí 24KPřed měsícem
Everything you ever wanted to know about Sodium Batteries and my personal verdict in how I see the future of Sodium Batteries. Here it is: the final video (for a while) about Sodium Batteries. We have done a lot of testing in the last two weeks, answered a lot of questions and have learned a lot together. Thank you for all your comments and sharing your thoughts about Sodium Batteries. In the f...
Sodium Battery powers Inverter. But for how long will it run?
zhlédnutí 15KPřed měsícem
Sodium Battery powers Inverter. But for how long will it run?
12V Sodium Battery Teardown. Who would have thought what I found!?
zhlédnutí 22KPřed měsícem
12V Sodium Battery Teardown. Who would have thought what I found!?
Reached the Discharge Limit of a Sodium battery? A voltage plateau at 0.3V!
zhlédnutí 8KPřed 2 měsíci
Reached the Discharge Limit of a Sodium battery? A voltage plateau at 0.3V!
Discharging Sodium Batteries to 0V! Useful or just a marketing gag?
zhlédnutí 12KPřed 2 měsíci
Discharging Sodium Batteries to 0V! Useful or just a marketing gag?
Balancing Sodium batteries: active / passive, when to start, top balancing?
zhlédnutí 15KPřed 2 měsíci
Balancing Sodium batteries: active / passive, when to start, top balancing?
Absorbing Sodium batteries. Capacity gain or worthless?
zhlédnutí 12KPřed 2 měsíci
Absorbing Sodium batteries. Capacity gain or worthless?
Sodium Battery C-Rate Test and Comparison. Better than LiFePO4?
zhlédnutí 31KPřed 2 měsíci
Sodium Battery C-Rate Test and Comparison. Better than LiFePO4?
Sodium Cell Charging and Discharging Analysis, Hardware Compatibility. Future or Niche product?
zhlédnutí 32KPřed 2 měsíci
Sodium Cell Charging and Discharging Analysis, Hardware Compatibility. Future or Niche product?
JK-BMS Code Generator to Force Updating your BMS for repair and FW downgrade!
zhlédnutí 12KPřed 2 měsíci
JK-BMS Code Generator to Force Updating your BMS for repair and FW downgrade!
Reset the old JK-BMS to 100% SOC when fully charged with no OVP. Here is how.
zhlédnutí 17KPřed 2 měsíci
Reset the old JK-BMS to 100% SOC when fully charged with no OVP. Here is how.
Be aware of these options, features and flaws of DIY Vertical Battery Boxes. A comparison...
zhlédnutí 26KPřed 2 měsíci
Be aware of these options, features and flaws of DIY Vertical Battery Boxes. A comparison...
Gobelpower HSEV Cells in Seplos MASON DIY Box. What a result!
zhlédnutí 14KPřed 2 měsíci
Gobelpower HSEV Cells in Seplos MASON DIY Box. What a result!
Building the Seplos Mason 280L Vertical DIY Battery Kit. PERFECT!!! Wait... it's not.
zhlédnutí 21KPřed 3 měsíci
Building the Seplos Mason 280L Vertical DIY Battery Kit. PERFECT!!! Wait... it's not.
Gobelpower EVE LF280K HSEV Cells. Perfect for DIY? All tests and what you need to know!
zhlédnutí 23KPřed 3 měsíci
Gobelpower EVE LF280K HSEV Cells. Perfect for DIY? All tests and what you need to know!
Heltec Internal Resistance Tester HT-RT01. Not what I was expecting...
zhlédnutí 11KPřed 3 měsíci
Heltec Internal Resistance Tester HT-RT01. Not what I was expecting...

Komentáře

  • @finnerutavdet
    @finnerutavdet Před 4 minutami

    I read one comment (unknown source) stating that Lead Acids would degrade over the years no matter how much or little you use them, simply because of the materials inside degrading (as with corosion) over time. ........ Could something like that be the case with LiFePO4 as well ?,........ that the cycles doesn't really matter that much ? ........ Any comments ?

  • @engineer0.510
    @engineer0.510 Před hodinou

    Hello sir, I want to learn about that on which basis design the battery pack for electrical vichles

  • @larryheij1783
    @larryheij1783 Před 4 hodinami

    Hello Starting to thank you for all the good movies you make. Looks like you can finally get it a little cooler in the garage. See how you measure the temperature and that it doesn't go down that much. It becomes a bit inefficient with this type of cooler as it takes all the air from inside, some of the air comes back cold, the warm air that is blown out is also taken from inside, this means that you get negative pressure in the garage, which means that the warm air from outside is sucked in via the ventilation. SINCERELY Larry

  • @iprrr
    @iprrr Před 5 hodinami

    HI Andy! In the bms there are two cables both going to cell no. 8. How did you set them up? Thank you

  • @danielardelian2
    @danielardelian2 Před 6 hodinami

    Balance cables - you could cut off the 3 mm ring lugs and install new 6mm insulated lugs...

  • @samsuffit6229
    @samsuffit6229 Před 6 hodinami

    Thank You Andy, interesting, I was told that the Battery kit was not available anymore. I asked Gobel Power via their site but got no answer. Happy to see that it's available again. I experienced Gobel Power as very reactive, sure they will help You too. Good luck and I hope to see the next video soon ;-)

  • @typxxilps
    @typxxilps Před 7 hodinami

    Is there a rule of thumb what current the integrated Balance should be capable of based on the battery size ? I can remember that many had taken the 2A JK BMS for the usual 14,3 kWh EVE LF280K batteries, but what about a 3,6 kWh LFP 16S battery (74 Ah) ? 16 x 74 Ah x 3,2 V = 3789 Wh or 3,8 kWh which would mean 27% of the big 14,3 kWh. And these 27% would equal with a 2A BMS just 0,54 A A 0,6 A balancer should have even more reserve, but the main question is still: How should the balancer be layed out to get the battery balanced (battery capacity) and when to get a 4A or a 2A or 1A or 0,6 A on

  • @MarkPrince1317
    @MarkPrince1317 Před 7 hodinami

    Oh Andy 🍺🍺

  • @batteryman2852
    @batteryman2852 Před 7 hodinami

    17:15 This is my personal experience with A.I chatbot, is to not generalize the question too much, give it an more accurate example, tell it that you discharged it normally, then shorten its terminals, i think the bot take into consideration of shortening a battery at an unknown remaining capacity and energy. my guts feelings is if you ask general questions, you get those standard baby-safe paper-manual text nonsense. 18:42 much much better generated answer in my opinion.

  • @jimginnyohio
    @jimginnyohio Před 7 hodinami

    That's too bad! It's a good looking and strong box. But it appears there are too many problems for now. I hope they get those issues fixed!

  • @SS59A
    @SS59A Před 8 hodinami

    you have the wrong polarity on the BMS, you have connected the negative of the BMS to the positive pole of the cell.

  • @peterstone6307
    @peterstone6307 Před 9 hodinami

    Sodium will be the future of home power storage

  • @torpemonguz
    @torpemonguz Před 9 hodinami

    Abc avoid to buy Chinese.. but in this case we do not have solar systems..😂 a bit shitty..😂😂😂

  • @energieundhobby
    @energieundhobby Před 9 hodinami

    Typical case of banana battery. Matures with the customer. 🤣 Thank you very much for your honesty. 👍👍

  • @MrSqueegey
    @MrSqueegey Před 10 hodinami

    I bet they designed the battery box for 100amp cells.reason for build not fitting well

  • @bloepje
    @bloepje Před 10 hodinami

    If you change the polarity direction of the batteries, you will probably have enough space to mount the cables. So the circuitbreaker cable will not overlap with the cables from the bms.

  • @twistedthrottle8513
    @twistedthrottle8513 Před 10 hodinami

    made for 280ah cells not 304ah

  • @MSIrtx
    @MSIrtx Před 10 hodinami

    People think that if the products are expensive, then they buy quality goods

  • @saschahorstkotte3331
    @saschahorstkotte3331 Před 11 hodinami

    Moin Andy, last year I build 2 /Seplos/mason Boxes with EVE LF280K Cells and the compression plate works fine. Now I build the third one with new LF280k HSEV cells from Gobel and I had to add a plate to get the cells compressed. Are the new cells with octagonal contacts 1 - 1.5mm thinner than the old ones and Gobel use them for his Boxes to design their case?

  • @cdonuts7335
    @cdonuts7335 Před 11 hodinami

    Yet another add to cart, but by the end of the video remove from cart! Been nothing but donkey balls lately!

  • @lerrypage
    @lerrypage Před 12 hodinami

    Kleiner Tipp: Ich würde die Zellen andersrum rein stellen, dann geht es sich mir den dickeren Kabeln auch besser aus und in die Zellverbinder Löcher bohren und ein Gewinde rein schneiden für die BMS Kabel, das ist in kurzer Zeit zu machen.

  • @HelmutWernerKulicke-wk6oo
    @HelmutWernerKulicke-wk6oo Před 12 hodinami

    Mybe The 280 Ah Cells are a tiny Bit smaller. As Gobel subscribe The Box for 280 Ah Cells

  • @ranatayyab3312
    @ranatayyab3312 Před 12 hodinami

    Can pace bms works parallel with daly bms

  • @schunkelndedschunke6914
    @schunkelndedschunke6914 Před 13 hodinami

    You could screw up your existing GobelPower battery box to can see how the connection cables are to be used. Be happy that the balance cables has ring lugs. My 200A BMS I ordered to change my "old" 150A GobelPower BMS came with a balance cable WITHOUT ring lugs. Good that I can use the old balance cables. As I told, I ordered one and hopefully it comes with a display. The missing built up manual is really bad. Hopefully GobelPower made a download on there WebSite. The position of the Neeeey balancer is really bad. If you want to change the balancer you have to srew up the hole front....horrible. My GobelPower DIY Box I have ordered with the 200A PC200 BMS and should come with a screen so that than all my 3 GobelPower batteries are the same.

  • @schunkelndedschunke6914
    @schunkelndedschunke6914 Před 13 hodinami

    You could screw up your existing GobelPower battery box to can see how the connection cables are to be used.

  • @schunkelndedschunke6914
    @schunkelndedschunke6914 Před 13 hodinami

    You could screw up your existing GobelPower battery box to can see how the connection cables are to be used.

  • @lua-nya
    @lua-nya Před 14 hodinami

    Can we have a white DIY box for JK BMS that doesn't suck?

  • @BromideBride
    @BromideBride Před 14 hodinami

    On a positive note: you can't accuse Gobelpower of _influencer bias_ by sending you perfect equipment and dumping bodgebuilt rubbish onto the rest of us. And nobody can accuse you of being singled out for special treatment. So that deserves a couple of tadpoles if not a whole frog.

  • @MrMandala1111
    @MrMandala1111 Před 15 hodinami

    Hey Andy, thanks so much for this one Looking at a Gobal purchase myself but with the PACE BMS. What would be fantastic is to hear from you about regulations and certifications needed to use these China boxes in Australia completely Off Grid. I am in country NSW and very very close to buying one but the legalities are holding me back. I know the EVE cells at least have the IEC62619 certificate but the Gobal products only have full IEC62619 cert on the Premium fully assembled model and not on the Standard or DIY model's. It would be really nice to know what you can share on this. Cheers

  • @extendedp1
    @extendedp1 Před 16 hodinami

    51 F isn’t “fizzing cold” lol. Sounds nice to me.

  • @ZdenkoMeglic
    @ZdenkoMeglic Před 16 hodinami

    Hi! When you set your RCV time to 1h and RFV time to 6h. This will charge the battery twice a day. Once in the morning and once in the afternoon. Or am I missing something?? Thanks!

  • @extendedp1
    @extendedp1 Před 16 hodinami

    Years ago when I started an aborted foray into solar I bought some used CALB 100ah cells. What are the recommended cells to buy today, and from which vendor’s? Thanks!

  • @GregOnSummit
    @GregOnSummit Před 16 hodinami

    At 16:20 ... could this box be for a smaller battery? Maybe 220 or 230 AH cells?

  • @extendedp1
    @extendedp1 Před 16 hodinami

    Thanks for these videos. I was wondering if the 40A tester in this video could also serve a a charger for initial cell top balancing, and then for 48v pack charging if needed? If not, do you have a recommendation for a 48v lifepo charger? Thanks!

  • @joesmith1142
    @joesmith1142 Před 18 hodinami

    Its as if ten guys designs fifty different components of the system on a computer, not a single one of them speaks to each other, and they are in four different countries and they go straight to production in 17 different provinces without ever even building a single prototype.

  • @turnerhayes5303
    @turnerhayes5303 Před 18 hodinami

    is the box a parallelogram? get a square and check!

  • @angelcsa46
    @angelcsa46 Před 18 hodinami

    I believe I know why those brackets don't fit. The manufacturer should tell you what Size AH batteries is needed. Your 300 plus AH batteries are too large. They should make the box universal to use any AH batteries.

  • @SunInLithium
    @SunInLithium Před 19 hodinami

    I just recently put together 6 gobel diy kits. With the pace bms. You have the main positive on the wrong side. And it works best with the top wire on the breaker to loop towards the front panel. And the to the terminals. Also the rubber covers are for the main positive and negative, of the cells. The newer 280 cells that test over 310 ah are getting thinner every day. I needed to stack up close to 10mm of pcb board just to make the cells contact. The pressure plate. So maybe the modified the newer kits to make up for that. I do wish they would use pcb balance leads. Or at least trim the excess wire. And of course in this case add bigger terminals to fit over the 6mm bolt. I im currently ordereding 8 jk kits and cells. I've also recommend they use adhesive pcb board on the bottom sheet as it seems it could slide off to the side. Keep up the great work. Cheers Elias

    • @MrMandala1111
      @MrMandala1111 Před 15 hodinami

      Hey man. Good info for me there thanks. I am very close to buying one of their PACE BMS diy models too with Eve 304 cells hopefully, the new MB30's have ran out of stock everywhere. How have you found the PACE model, be great for some real world feedback thanks. I am not interested in the JK model as I don't have a good feeling about the company in general and after their unforgivable dangerous update a little while ago well need we say more.

    • @SunInLithium
      @SunInLithium Před 6 hodinami

      @MrMandala1111 The pace bms seems to be good, so fare. It has a couple of quirks to do with the optional internal heater. It will only turn on if the battery is charging, and it will only charge if it is warm enough. So, if the battery falls below low temp charging disconnect, it will need to be warmed up with an external heat source. Also, there is no bluetooth app, and the soc, Volts, and amps are not readily available on the display.

  • @peterryan7340
    @peterryan7340 Před 19 hodinami

    Dunkelflaute here in Eastern Australia

  • @kenbell6347
    @kenbell6347 Před 19 hodinami

    the W is probably for white

  • @leeshively669
    @leeshively669 Před 20 hodinami

    Glad you do what you do, Thank you! Had similar experience with Basin Green. Apparently thier are more than one alpha testing center on different continents. Stay charged, 2x EEL v4 inbound.

  • @pmacgowan
    @pmacgowan Před 20 hodinami

    just Macgyver it Andy ... use your 3d printer to make adapter brackets

  • @dreckbaer
    @dreckbaer Před 21 hodinou

    I really would love you to build/ test the "Apexium" DIY Box (from eg. Docan Technology (shenzhen) Co., Ltd.), just to get your verdict on it.

  • @vladislavlozitskyi671
    @vladislavlozitskyi671 Před 21 hodinou

    Greatings from Ukraine! Thank You very much for Your work! I have such BMS with HW v15. I updated it to version v15.17 from v15.11 based on Your instructions, but I can not find any changelogs for this firmware. Does this bug persist in v15.17? Is there any way to read what have changed between FW versions? Thank You in advance!

  • @davidpatrick1813
    @davidpatrick1813 Před 21 hodinou

    thanks for the duck alert!

  • @caesarvalenti2763
    @caesarvalenti2763 Před 21 hodinou

    Uh-oh. I ordered the kit and the batteries. I am getting the PC-2000 BMS. I am expecting an opening for the display. I got an email that the cells were shipped on 4/28...not sure if the shipment also includes the kit. I am in Northern California and, according to the tracking, it has already arrived in Southern CA.

  • @angyp74
    @angyp74 Před 21 hodinou

    I have an EEL battery box with the JK and the cabling between the BMS and the battery is also a nightmare. At least your cabling looks like it has some girth. I have 2x10mm2 between the battery and BMS and BMS and negative terminal. The positive is 20mm2 to the breaker and the positive terminal but it's a tight and tortured path. What happened to custom-made flexible busbars. Also, the EEL box has a solid bottom plate.

  • @wayne8113
    @wayne8113 Před 22 hodinami

    Thanks Andy

  • @sammaimas155
    @sammaimas155 Před 22 hodinami

    I definitely prefer to have the LCD display to quickly check values. You always need options and I get sick of using the app all the time.

  • @todamnbad
    @todamnbad Před 22 hodinami

    I have always wondered what happens to cells that go from compression to uncompressed back to compression again, should it be dine at low voltage or does it even matter once the expansion has already happend.