Why Sodium Batteries will not replace Lithium. AI powered FAQ and my personal outlook and verdict🧂🔋
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- Everything you ever wanted to know about Sodium Batteries and my personal verdict in how I see the future of Sodium Batteries.
Here it is: the final video (for a while) about Sodium Batteries. We have done a lot of testing in the last two weeks, answered a lot of questions and have learned a lot together. Thank you for all your comments and sharing your thoughts about Sodium Batteries.
In the final part of the video, I also give you my thoughts about why I think Sodium will not replace Lithium and give you a bit of a personal outlook into the future of batteries.
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
2:56 Thermal Runaway of Sodium Batteries
4:50 High C-rate charging of Sodium Batteries
7:08 Charging Sodium Batteries to 100% every time?
9:25 Recommended DOD for Sodium Batteries
11:11 Capacity increase after a few cycles?
13:43 Formation Cycles for Sodium Batteries?
14:56 Shorten Sodium Batteries to keep them at 0V?
17:23 Can we frequently discharge Sodium Batteries to 0V?
19:35 Compression of prismatic Sodium Batteries
22:03 My Sodium Battery Verdict and Outlook
Sodium FAQ PDF document with all questions and answers:
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GEB Sodium 18650 and prismatic Sodium-ion cells (scroll all the way down on the following website):
off-grid-garage.com/batteries/
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Take the LLM response on Sodium Ion batteries with... a grain of salt.
funny and clever...lol
I see what you did there--because salt is the solution. ;-)
Yes, absolutely. These are the 'best' answers we have atm.
Pun unintended 😂
@@jiaqingw I think the dramatic pause says otherwise. 😀
Wow I have learned more about sodium batteries from Andy in the last week then from any other source. Simply outstanding.
I don’t think you can take the output of any LLM too seriously when you’re talking about a new technology for which there is very little training information on the Internet. LLM‘s are great at generating text, they are less good at generating, correct answers.
If you have to train AI, It's not AI
true, the AI didn't know that Sodium ion battery is definitively safer than Lifepo4, it has been tested in paper titled "Sodium-ion Battery Testing" -Rachel Carter, et al.
What's great is that they cite their sources, so you can check if it's on to something or just spewing a load of BS. On niche topics like this, I've found they tend to take a truth and stretch it to fit whatever bias might be present within the prompt.
Yes, correct. That why it wants me to do the testing😁
@@kevinroberts781AI is as intelligent as the milions of human answers it compared, emagine how clever one will be if you can compare milions of answers to a problem in a split second. So to my mind AI still has a dependance on human interaction, it will change in the future. But for now a human are still superior, AI cannot exist without human input for now.
I completely agree with Andy about the here-and-now of sodium batteries that they aren't ready for prime time right now. However, I remain a strong believer that sodium batteries will have their moment in the sun.
LiFePO4 batteries have well over a decade headstart to sodium batteries. So I would not be surprised if in ten years' time, stationary storage was dominated by Na and Li was mainly reserved for mobile applications.
In the vast majority of tests, the LiFePO4 come out on top, but given that it's reasonably close in some tests is extremely encouraging to me.
Of course only time will tell, but given the amount of storage we will need to transition to a 100% green grid, I still see a bright future ahead for sodium.
Thank you, Herr Müller, for sending this battery over for me to test. We all have learned a lot from that. Thanks a lot for your contribution.
Thanks for putting in the work testing these batteries and making videos about them.
AI just summarizes what is out there and does not distinguish between the current Na-Ion chemistry and any earlier versions of Sodium batteries out there.
I believe that LFP has set a very high standard for batteries, and it will stay dominant in mobile applications for a while.
But we can not store the worlds green energy in LFP alone. There is simply not enough and even LFP has it's drawbacks.
We will need so much cheap storage all around the world that Sodium is going to be the only element able to meet this demand and CATL, BYD and other competitors are already scaling up for the inevitable change.
Andy, you've done a fantastic job in this sodium ion battery series of videos. Thank you for all the knowledge you provide to the community.
In my opinion, sodium batteries are particularly suited for high-voltage inverters. The benefits of sodium in the automotive industry will become apparent when sodium battery charging times can be reduced to 15 to 30 minutes, as sodium batteries outperform LiFePO4 in several aspects:
- They perform well in cold weather, such as temperatures as low as -12°C.
- They can reach 0 V without degradation, ensuring that if a car is left without charging for a long time due to an accident or any other reason, the batteries will not become unusable.
- Car inverters can operate at lower voltages due to the wide voltage range usable from 300 V to 800 V.
- With reduced charging times, fewer batteries need to be installed.
- Sodium is widely available, making sodium battery-powered cars potentially more cost-effective.
- While sodium batteries reduce reliance on some rare materials, they still require resources like lithium and cobalt, albeit in smaller quantities compared to lithium-ion batteries.
- Companies like CATL are heavily investing in sodium batteries, with reported improvements such as doubling cycle life to 8000.
In my belief, sodium batteries are tailored for the automotive industry, and we can anticipate rapid technological advancements in the near future.
Seems like someone has been reading the marketing hype rather than paying attention to the actual testing here. Sodium charge rates are slow. The reduced range you are talking about from smaller battery packs, which already have less than half the energy density of NMC batteries means NMC can already charge faster, for the short ranges you would be taking about, with 15-30 min sodium charge times. Teslas, for example can already charge 100 miles of range in 5-6 minutes.
While it's true that current sodium battery technology may have slower charge rates compared to lithium-ion batteries, it's essential to consider the trajectory of technological advancement. Lithium-ion batteries have undergone multiple upgrades and optimizations over the years, leading to the impressive charging capabilities seen in Tesla vehicles today. However, sodium battery chemistry, although currently at an earlier stage of development, holds significant potential for improvement.
Investing in sodium battery research and development can lead to breakthroughs that improve charging times, energy density, and overall performance. While it may take time to achieve these advancements, prioritizing the use of more abundant and cheaper materials, like sodium, is crucial for the long-term sustainability and scalability of battery technology.
Furthermore, sodium batteries offer inherent advantages such as better performance in cold weather and reduced reliance on rare materials, which could outweigh current limitations once the technology matures. Therefore, while lithium-ion batteries may have the upper hand in the short term, it's essential to recognize sodium batteries' long-term potential for delivering cost-effective and environmentally friendly energy storage solutions.
@@ElieHarfouche More marketing hype. Speculative promises that can only even have a possibility of coming to fruition if sodium batteries can find some market relevance to keep them interesting and profitable enough to justify further massive investments on the order of those for NMC and LFP. Right now, it is hard to see a case, and with LFP prices dropping, and more and more lithium mines in development, the business case for sodium looks less and less appealing.
@@daveduncan2748looks like someone heavily invested in lithium companies, manage your risk my guy
@@wasd713 you guessed wrong. Pay attention to the actual reasoning rather than inventing straw men.
Sodium batteries are a cold climate solution
The density looks to be about 2/3 of LifePO4 (10Ah verses 15AH in the 13xxx cells). The power for weight is a bit better but I think the big thing is the price. For home storage and EVs Sodium Ion is meant to get down to about 1/3 the price of LifePO4 and 1/4-1/5 the price of Li-ion. That is very compelling from a home storage point of view where capacity is substantially cheaper once we have inverters that can utilise the wide voltage range.
I think it has the potential to become the battery that people want for home storage systems but the price has to meet the marketing and we are going to need inverters designed to utilise the massive voltage range these batteries produce alongside some tuned BMS for them as well. Its got potential but none of the pieces are there yet.
Not to mention if these batteries don't spontaneously combust, then the insurance aspect of having them in your house would be a lot more favorable. That said, asking an AI about it is about the dumbest thing I've seen all month, and I work in IT. I'm not sure I'll be watching much more from this channel.
The price is 4 times that of lithium. No thanks
@@big0bad0bradI see most people ditching insurance within 20 years. It's a scam just like AI
@@kevinroberts781 They have only been available to but for a month or so, FFS!
@@kevinroberts781 - Maybe research economies of scale? Na-ion batteries, once they are being produced at the same scale as LiFePO4, will cost about 1/3 as much. This reduction in cost, and the decreased reliance on rare earth minerals, especially cobalt, is why sodium batteries WILL become quite popular for a variety of applications. You proved it, yourself, by stating the single motivating concern for most consumers - PRICE. When we get to the point where LiFePO4 is 50 to 65% more expensive than sodium, the choice will be very easy, and you'll be just as convinced nothing will ever replace sodium.
I get the impression Sodium Ion batteries still have a lot of development left to go before they become a serious alternative. From what I can tell there are still quite a few variations being explored to try to overcome some of their shortcomings. It will be interesting to see where things are a few years down the line, with improved chemistry and some large prismatic cells.
Thanks for all this testing. It helps a lot of people around the world to understand this new batteries :)
Thank you and you are most welcome!
Natrion used to make sodium-ion batteries it guaranteed for 50k cycles at 20C charge/discharge rate for datacenter, telecomms, grid storage and fast-charging buffers. They have updated their site since the last time I looked, now they are only promoting their solid-state lithium composite batteries. Having a company created for and named after sodium not do sodium anymore sounds a little awkward.
I can certainly see sodium batteries replacing LI-PO in cold weather grid storage. The wider temperature range and lower material costs are a bit of a game-changer IMO.
Not having to heat your battery shed (or even maintaining -15C instead of 0C) would be a huge energy savings.
Not at today's costs. It's 4 times lithium costs
Uh, did you see Na battery capacity disaster at low temps? May as well not even have the batteries at those temps. They will require insulation and a heater otherwise you will not have a battery bank. Insulation solves nearly all the problems especially if you place next to your house and only problem is charging LFP, not discharging LFP... so? If there is a power source charging them, then it requires next to zero power to pull a tiny enclosed space up to 0C via a heater. --> Big hint: everyone living off grid has a gas/diesel generator with a giant battery bank bud as Solar doesn't work except 9 months out of the year unless you live ONLY in the tropics and even then during rainy season, you have to have 2X or 3X as many solar panels.
@@w8stralNo I did not see how capacity drops off in low temps. Not a deal-breaker if competing chemistries are similarly impaired.
The data sheet for a LFP battery I was looking at seemed to indicate it disconnected at -20C "for safety" (Read: warranty). You could charge it from -30C with the help of built-in battery heaters though.
All good info. Thanks for what you do.
Very interesting video , thank you Andy for all your research.
My pleasure!
Sehr schöne herangehensweise an dieses Thema der Batterietechnik! Bin begeistert, was so alles in deiner Garage entsteht! Dein Intellekt läßt noch auf vieles Interssantes hoffen!
Werde dir weiterhin folgen, um nichts zu verpassen! Gruß aus Deutschland.....
I like your videos a lot. And i also can follow your conclusion. I learned recently, that there is again not just one sodium ion technology. A variety of anode/cathode materials will show up.
Great work! Early days for Sodium and I am confident to buy batteries and put them to work, with a view towards better things to come.
Someone got a 360 camera? The intro looked great! I'm glad your channel keeps growing.
Got the 360 for a while but have only used it for my other channels so far. It's a fun toy😉
yeah, the start of the video looked very nice :)
Super information ❤❤
Its obvious from the AI answers that it does not watch your channel 😂 🚀
I believe the answer for Na is higher voltage inverters and lower cut off.
Thanks Andy
the cost of sodium ion battery is going to replace lithium market share, even if they are not replacing it to 100%
👍👍👍Congratulation from Romania !
I like that you've done this video Andy. I was so excited for these batteries.......that was until I got my hands on a data sheet last year. I didn't even bother getting any to test.
Super, congratulation from Lithuania
When your first video about the sodium batteries hit and I saw the voltage range, already then my thought was, hardware would need to be re-designed around the use of the sodium technology, one would otherwise not be able to utilise the full energy capacity of said battery, but, this is indeed another stepping stone, so, we wait and see how it all develops ... Thank you Andy for all your hard work and information given..
Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.
Interesting. In another space a Technician from Schneider (huge multinational Company)came into the discussion and pointed out that they tried extensively to get Sodium batteries to work in a household storage environment and just couldn't make it work.
The main issue was that they simply could not cope with instant sudden load changes like an aircondition coming on. So for the time being, they gave up on that idea of intergrading Sodium batteries in their storage solutions.
We have 40KWh in LFP batteries at a cost of AUS $35,000,-. This includes the cabinet but not the special Inverters (which you need anyway).
When our system was reasonable small, we had started with two (they are 4KWh each)..then purchased another one a year later and added another another year later after that. We then increased our system multi fold to 10 units. The older batteries were used in a conservative matter ...discharge to maximum of 40% only. With the new ones, they are showing 0% degradation. The current ones are setup to 35% SOC, so maximum discharge of 65% before either the Grid comes in or the Generator kicks in (in case of Grid loss).
The lowest we have been was either 42% or 48% SOC (can't remember) and this was just a day after install, as they didn't have a chance to be fully charged via Solar yet.
Na-ion batteries are a direct competitor of LFP, but they will not have an easy time finding their own niches where they can replace LFP.
The ability to operate in low and high temperatures is a major advantage. For EVs that makes a difference especially for people who had trouble charging their EVs in winter. Note that if you can eliminate the need for an active thermal management system, you can boost the energy density and you won't be wasting energy cooling or heating the battery. So effectively you can get similar range from Na-ion as you do with LFP.
Most people rarely use fast chargers and when they do often the temperature reduces the charging speed. When using a home charger or level 2 charger it doesn't matter whether you have LFP or Na-ion.
I am in the tropics where lifetime of Li batteries just isn't good enough. If Na-ion has longer lifetime at higher temperatures, then it will replace Li-ion in the tropics. Note that about half the world population lives in areas with high temperatures.
Very interesting video, thank you very much. M
Have you looked into Flow batteries as an alternative to your LFP banks? I'm curious how viable they are for a home off-grid system.
No, never. you cannot go online and order them just like LFP. Flow batteries are way too expensive and certainly nothing for a DIY project.
I think they will take over, personally I would just keep voltage within the usable range for inverter so you would get about 75-80 percent usable capacity but they will be 1/3 the price. It will soon be an even exchange for density to cost 1/3 the price and 1 1/3 the size/weight of usable energy. No different equipment just program to usable range for your equipment. If I can have a 10 kwh usable sodium ion the size of a water heater for $500 I'm all in
Heya, so it is depanding of the use at your specifications situation what battery kind you can/have to use.do I hear totally at the end what the new battery types your gone test ?!?!?!
Thanks Andy, outstanding evaluation of sodium battery technology. I learned quite a lot, about a new product on the market with very little information. Granted as you say sodium batteries are too expensive at the moment though the claim is it is a cheaper technology. The charge curves are way different than lithium technology, so I presume if it can't be catered for software wise one will need new hardware. Happy testing!!
Thanks for your feedback and thoughts.
Thanks for your insides in this new technology. My opinion is that it needs to reach a certain age before one can say what it will replace of add to the current lineup of batteries. It will depend on the application and maybe the cold discharge and chargeing might help placing batteries in harsh climates and not bother much if they hold charge with even a limited timespan, that's what's engineering is all about, exploring possibilities and working out your problems. Nevertheless I also found Andy 3 (copilot) fun to witness and it made sense, good to see this AI at work with your questions and saving you a ton of time reading and interpretating all which has been said and researched around these batteries. For now I must get to work (still) to get the LFP's running at home with Vitron equipment (I need a bit of stable warm weather). Thanks for sharing and this series!
The BYD seagull was supposed to have a sodium battery this year. Or was is suppose last year but never release?
but then they put LFP batteries in the vehicle and shipped it. Sodium is not there yet for mobile applications.
Ty, I was curious. Sounds like a bit tricky to charge, maybe I specific charger is required or at least a custom config. Maybe by changing high end stop charge voltage below what 100% shows. If full V is 13.5, then set charge cutoff at 13.3? I would think both high and low charge limits should be set by the bms to a frickin safe number, jeez! I am curious about Sulphur batteries, but they are not yet available.
ich denke auch das es für Grid Storage eine sehr gute Alternative sein wird. Außerdem kann es Blei Batterie in kleinen Fahrzeugen wie Motorroller oder Rickschas ersetzen. Immerhin doppelte Kapazität bei gleichem Gewicht. Ich denke also in Asien wird das massiv helfen bei short range Fahrzeugen.
Gabelstapler, Baumaschinen. Da wo es nicht auf Gewicht ankommt.
I agree
@@LittleSpotungeeignet für Baumaschinen, nicht wegen dem Gewicht, sondern weil du viel zu viel Volumen brauchst. Und grad Gabelstapler brauchen das Gewicht, du kannst sie aber nicht einfach größer bauen.
Als Ersatz für Starterbatterien sind sie auch ungeeignet, weil sie Spannung konstant abfällt.
Great video, but I think you’re missing the point. Sodium is obviously not intended to replace lithium. However, it is just barely reaching scale manufacturing, and it’s lack of lithium will allow its price to drop. We will see applications of sodium in grid storage and other uses using equipment designed to handle its characteristics. Will it replace lithium in 12 V home systems? Not soon. Does it have a bright future? Absolutely.
Lithium is not a problem, rather mass manufacturing of the infrastructure is along with more than 1 country refining it. Insane voltage drop and poor cycle life is the problem with Sodium batteries. No one will put up with low cycle life.
Good job , thank you !
John. :-)
Thank you too!
while looking forward of testing LMFP batteries to the end of this year, have you considered to test Lithium Titanate batteries? they're available on the market for a few years already and have superior advantages compared to LIFEPO4
Hi Andy my question is it a good idea or possible(@low voltage set to say 3volts).
Can we use this as stand alone batterie charger. To charge battery's say @36v,24v,12v,6v and 3volt
Batteries. Please tell me what your thoughts are. Stay charged andy
New BMS, that'll be fun. 👍
Any updates on the new jk inverter BMS in parallel operation?
Has JK fixed the issues!??
What issues? I have two BMS in parallel for weeks now and no trouble...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia
That what I like to hear! Danke.
They will get better in a few years, maybe after puting some lithium in it. Nice videos Andy
Thanks for your testig Andy.. Intresting that catl put out those "mixed battery, i mean lifepo4 and na+" like they are interoperable, i wonder how that would work, being so drastically diffrent in voltage and all..
Both battery types in parallel won't work. There is absolutely no benefit in doing that.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yeah kinda my thoughts on that... Thats why i thought strange catls in the slides for "na+" advertising like hybrid stack cells with lifepo4 and na+.... Perhaps there different types of sodium chemistrys, no clue man...
Redflow are getting established with their flow battery other than that yeh nah, Andy your intros are top notch 👌🇦🇺
Thank you. Flow batteries never took off in any market. Too expensive, too much maintenance, too large and heavy. Sodium may replace them rather sooner than later...
Hi Andy, just two minutes to ask you a question:
I have a 24V system, 8 REPT cells, and I just got another 16 EVEs. I have 2 options in mind:
1. go to 48V and keep the 24V as an emergency system (but how to integrate the two systems?
2. Divide the 16 cells into two 8-cell packs and put them in parallel with each other.
Or do you have any other better ideas?
You're the only one I trust on the web! Super! 😉
Keep the 24V system and make 3 separate battery banks out of these cells.
My guess is that these will be marketed as more environmentally friendly as they will be called salt batteries for the masses aimed at the storage market for large community batteries and house batteries. Also a competitor to flow batteries. Price would need to plummet to get the uptake.
Price is certainly the main driver for any battery coming to market.
Sodium batteries are not suitable tfor 48V batteries, but for "HV" it could be the way. Most of the hybrid inverters have range of battery from 200V to 600V. But still you need a proper bms
HV could be an application, but most batteries for home storage are still LV.
This all makes me think a hybrid battery would be best. LFP would be the primary use battery, and the sodium battery would be a bulk storage battery. The LFP would be the first to charge and slowly feed the Sodium battery since the Sodium battery has to charge slower and the LFP would be the primary use battery since it has a more level discharge curve. Then the bulk Sodium battery can be replaced cheaply as needed whereas the LFP battery is more expensive, but smaller and last longer than the car.
when sodium is cheaper in the future, just double the capacity and you can charge faster :D
- I'm curious to see if/how Na battery chemistry advances. Maybe it could be a bit more competitive to Li at some point.
- I want to know what's happening with that plateau towards the end of the discharge curve. Is it going through a chemical change? Is it starting to use the passivation layer at that point? Very interesting.
- If Na cells can be produced far cheaper than Li, that could be a game changer for large grid storage as it's somewhere between NMC and LFP for cycle life.
Thanks Andy 🤔
Thanks Wayne.
It will depend on price for me. LFPs are getting cheaper than good lead acids. Perhaps sodium ion batteries could be assembled in affordable high capacity packs for home systems, like 50k watt hours, to compete with flow batteries.
Andy, I really enjoy watching your videos. The enthusiasm with which you approach these experiments is infectious in the best possible way! :) With that said, I think you are choosing to ignore the biggest obvious reason why sodium ion batteries will eventually become even more common and dominant in the battery market than LiFePO4 is, right now..cost! As production scales, and costs plummet due to the relatively cheap and easy to scale supply chain for Na, the relative value of these batteries will be far greater than anything else currently on the market. Since I respect your experience and vision on this topic, do you truly not see the cost of sodium batteries dropping much lower that LiFePO4, making them the best value for consumers?
No, I don't see prices coming down for the reason you mentioned. If there is no demand, the price will not come down and will stay above that of lithium. Even if we would see a price parity and an increase in market share of sodium, it would free up more lithium production capacities and their price would come down as well (that's what we see right now due to the massive increase of production lines).
@@OffGridGarageAustralia - You understand that BYD is already building sodium-ion batteries, at scale, for their EV's? Cost and demand are always interrelated, so if a company thinks they can offer a Na-ion battery at a lower adjusted cost than LFP, the demand will be created by that cost advantage. Another major advantage of Na-ion is that they use far less materials that could be influenced by geopolitical instability. I'm surprised you don't realize that the lower cost of materials will inevitably be leveraged to result in a lower overall cost of production. When that happens, the reign of LFP will be over.
The cycle life, price and availability are the determiners. Lead acid was the standard and they are now considered sub-standard. The price makes the different discharge curves rather insignificant. So long as the quantity of sodium ion batteries can be secured at a lower price, the charge rate becomes unimportant. The BMS must be tailored to the battery.
Have you thought about using relays for Charge and Discharge Cut-off and connect with the different voltage of the technologies you have with all the chemistries and having all of them hooked up, But for example at 3.3 the lfp stops charging But li-ion keeps going til 3.7 and Cut-off and sodium keeps going til 4.xx values are off the top of my head, But same going Down so allowing each chemistry to absorb in the range They can
I have found the same with my SiB’s as well. We’ll see if anyone else comes out with better cells
Hi And
This has noting todo with the sodium batteries, as i do not know where to send it.
I am from Germany, living in the Philippines for many years .
I have learned a lot from your channel, also building Lithium batteries and learned
a lot from you. I have now a Seplos Smart BMS 3.0 but i can not start it.
I topple check all the connection, measured all the voltage all is normal.
I also contact Seplos but there have no answer what the problem could be.
Do you my have any Ide how i can start this Seplos Smart BMS 3.0.
Regards Michael
It does not start, when you press the reset button?
The BMS will also turn on when you start charging the battery.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia
Hi Andy, thank you for your reply. I tried but still noting, Not starting.
i also bring it to an electronic shop he tested it, no fault no short.
i am still waiting for an answer from Seplos.
Love this guy...
Love you too, Jason.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia If you were my neighbor you'd have to adopt me as you could never get rid of me:) I would be over there daily watching the projects- Thank you for sharing your experiences!
@@jasonhensley947 We could have a beer once a week... I could really use someone as an assistant, helping me with all these projects.
I am currently (pun intended) testing sodium batteries. I think you missed the overall purpose of your results, but the tests worked. I am using some 46mm by 150mm batteries. I am willing to share my results with you, so you can let your viewers see or hear the results. I am not creating videos, but you might like to know that others are testing them as well. Good luck, my friend.
I bought a pack of them too and will make a more practical test, since I am assembling an e scooter with them right now. It'll be interesting to see how they fare in real world scenario, as o pposed to Li-Ion. I am using an old Li-Ion Based device and swapping the electronics on it, save for the motor and will leave a new driver on it, so I can compare the two battery technologies.
It'll be interesting and I'll share, as soon as I have the time to test (also not making videos, unfortunately for you all, ha ha).
For grid storage and home storage, energy density is not real important, price is a far more concern, and with safety aspect a major concern, I do see these replacing Lithium in lots of situations, and if the energy density reaches parity, then vehicles may be forced to use them, for safety reasons and for material availability, I would like to see some real torture tests done on these batteries, also, I wonder if a hybrid battery using Sodium Ion and a cache of LF would be the future for Vehicle's?
Interesting thoughts...
Andy, I have been busy moving across the country why "battery life" has been on the backburner for many months. So, I have a fresh "reacquaintance" with OGG and it is very inspiring and good learning, particularly sodium batteries which I have just not gotten engaged in. Using AI was stroke of genius too, makes good discussion. As for formation/initial charging I have some experience with this. Formation is the bottleneck of battery production as you cant cut corners, it takes the time it takes according to the parameters of the cell as well as it is a consumer of energy, even if most batteryplants recycle energy as you do. So, if a manufacturer can, they will produce the least required effort in formation. This is akin to doing a run-in with you new ICE car, let the consumer do the final and important manufacturing step.
BYD SEAGULL has a Sodium option I think
It launched with an LFP battery from what I can find.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Wheelsboy channel The BYD Seagull 2:05. Mentioned it, but as production only started recently it may not be available yet.
Sounds like they would be ok for a car crank battery. The temp may be a benefit?
Who are you kidding? Did you see that voltage drop? It is far worse than Lead Acid and loses far more of its capacity due to cold than lead acid. LFP has better discharge when cold than Na-ion does and maintains its charge better to. Now charging is a bit different but not much.
@@w8stral You need to read what I wrote... my implication was to have a replacement for LA that is better for the environment.
No its not better for environment, that is just bunch of bull you made up out of thin air in your own "mind" with ZERO knowledge regarding mining/refining/ recycling. Just what do you actually think is in sodium ION batteries? Give you a hint: Sodium is the vast MINORITY of what is present. Just as Lithium ion batteries have very LITTLE lithium in it. And no, mining lithium is not toxic to environment and even if it is? Who cares? It doesn't matter. Said lithium was deposited there intially and there was zero life until the land healed itself, well it can do it again just fine and there are these things called humans which can help heal it after mining. @@markwright196
Hello I have a question I think you might can help me with I have 2 12v lipo4 400ah batteries running in series to get 24v lately my in veryer been going in default mode code 03 saying battery disconnected and when I go check it says battery under voltage stop discharge and the breaker is triped as well but the battery is showing 26v this has been going on for 2 months.
I'm using a 24v 3000w Hybrid inverter 80amp mppt built in and 3400w in solar panels I have 2 inverters side by side running my house off of both of them each inver has there on separate set of batteries connected to them both identical the other inverter has no issues all the settings on both inverters are the same setup I can't understand why I keep getting this code and why the batteries keep getting disconnected can you please help me
Measure the batteries while discharging. I assume one of the BMS inside these batteries disconnects for whatever reason (current, temperature). Do you have access to the BMS of each battery via Bluetooth? That's how you can find the fault.
Most likely, the breaker tripped because the voltage got so low and the current so high at the end of discharging.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia No I don't the batteries has no Bluetooth and I have no way to access it I think one of the cells is either higher or lower then the rest is there anyway I can level them all out or get them close without breaking open the battery? I have it back working but I think I know what battery is the problem I took them apart and charged them separately at a low amp but think I need to do it again not sure if that fixed the problem do you think a battery balancer will also help I have one but never used it for the two batteries in series what do you think
@@rontech34 It's probably worth opening them up and replace the BMS with a JK so you have control over each cell.
There is probably a very cheap and nasty BMS with a 25mA balancer inside. If you charge them slow or faster will not make a difference. Hope you can cut open these batteries and have a look inside.
Comparing third or forth generation of lithium batteries to first generation sodium batteries. Both technologies have there place but take into account cost of mining raw materials and availability.
Andy eres un referente mundial en lo que respecta a las baterías y sus accesorios, cuando alguien me pregunta ,le digo mira lo que hace andy el esta ahí
Excellent work Andy & thanks for all this testing, data & info.
It’s lifepo4 for now at least with the knowledge & gear we have readily available, it’s a proven product.
I think as battery manufacturing & the tech scales up to accomodate Salt battery use cases to a greater market we will see more of them if they can prove them to be substantially safer & more cost effective than LiFePo4 tech as they still have many shortfalls & require special gear to handle the wide voltage variations.
I guess time will tell if this tech shows a considerable reduction in EV’s catching fire because of their use.
I think one of their best use cases right now would be in solar street lighting if they made a modular, cylinderical plug n play type variant that would fit into a whole range of street lights via a built in service door at the base of each pole, it could be aesthetic so you would not even notice that a round pole has a door and make a battery or controller card change easy access. Cheers
I noticed improved capacity on 100% of my 32650 that i tested if i did formation cycles. Each cycled added less, 3 cycles were a trade-off between my patience and possible gains. Gains were around 5-10% mostly close to 7ish.
32650 is LFP.
I actually get asked frequently about Sodium batteries (or other Lithium Alternatives) from German customers...so there might be a market for Energy Storrage...especially, if price comes down to LFP-levels. Once affordable, we could actually use the 16S JK-Inverter BMS and use at lease 70% of the usable capaicty with a MultiPlus-II.
Just show them the graph of the voltage drop along with its poor cycle life and you will not have any more questions regarding Sodium batteries...
@@w8stralhow many cycles they will last ? I have only found sodium ion on aliexpress and the seller told me 3000 cycles and 20% loss after that.
Hello Andy, I like your tests. I said correctly that there is not much published about salty batteries. That is why IA can also not answer all of your questions. Remember IA does not do tests like youndo. It can only read and summarize what is published ( even if the published data might not be true).
So please keep testing, the world needs to see this. There is so much solar potential in developing countries, but the battery is too expensive for this target group.
Exellant effort and strength for Sodium project😇😍...however i feel time is enough mature to explore LTO66160 phainomenon. By the way...owned old JK-BMS has the option for LTO handling !!!
Seems like a joke for 2 year old BMS to have such function...
Hey Andy, this may throw a spanner in the works... I got 200Ah out of "220Ah" Sodium cells when charged to 4.0v. But I just tried charging them to 4.3v (which is mentioned on various places online as being the maximum) and they then produced about 265Ah. Maybe you can re-open the Sodium files and delve deeper. ;)
However, note that 3 of the 4 ZKE testers dies while doing this test. Shortly after the discharge (down to 1.5v) to charge transition, it seems to have stopped. Not nice smells coming from them, so be wary about killing test equipment.
That would mean overcharging the cells though.
Why would the ZKE die from this test?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Some data online suggests 4.3v is fine. But I really don't know at this stage. It certainly worked.
As for the ZKE death, unsure yet, I still need to open them up.
I think what people sometimes miss is that chemical elements are political. Choices are made for reasons of war, supply, ownership and pollutants. This is what influences the zeitgeist of battery development.
But it compares both Na-ion and LiFePO4 to Li-ion rather than to each other as you asked (I'm responding to the first question here.…) because I assume there's little literature for training data comparing the two.
Edit: ah, you just said the same thing 😅
Edit 2: I'm pretty impressed by it suggesting a testing process for Na-ion batteries as it knows there isn't much data on the subject. I feel an off-grid garage project coming on!
Yeah, I found it funny, that it wanted ME to do the testing myself😄
thanks for doing some testing, there's far to little data out there to do any meaningful assessment of these cells so any extra testing helps.
If the price of these come down as predicted i expect they will be fairly popular for storage where space isn't an issue. also if you just look at them as a better option the lead acid i don't think they are all that bad. if iv read your previous graphs right then running them at between 40-90% gives around 3.65 to 2.75 volts per cell which is 11- 14.6 V so the same as a LA battery and compatible with most inverters out there. granted your only using 50% of the cells capacity but that's the best you can do with LA anyway and these are definitely more tolerant of deeper discharges.
only time and real life use will tell what the actual cycle life will be for the end user.
if getting the most energy on a small space is the goal, then these have a long way to go, but they have to start somewhere.
In Alaska, any battery that can take a charge at -30 sounds good!
i think it will be a good solution to store energy in the summer for the winter. if they are super super cheap
for this no high charge rate is needed because the battery will be so big
ROFL... can you math bro? You are going to store 30,000 kWh of power... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, good one bro! Yup, this is the internet... Store power from summer for winter... --> ROFL!!!!
@@w8stral i only need 1000kwh for winter to be 100% offgrid for heating.
now i have 100% offgrid electricity and 50% of heating
Right, a sedan EV alone genius will require the average owner 10kWh minimum per car a day and 15kWh for a SUV sized car. Household power, not including heating will require another 3kWh even on a tiny home a day and for an average home around 10kWh. Hot water for a family will set you back another 5kWh assuming you have a heat pump source. Even assuming you heat with firewood you will still require another couple kWh a day to turn the pumps, or blowers etc. Sure boy, tell another lie unless you live in a shoe box under a bridge... there is no way you are even close to the truth. Oh yea, and good luck buying that 1000kWh battery... ROFL! For a fraction the cost you can buy an ENORMOUS solar array and a much smaller battery. @@mosfetkiller3851
Copilot got entirely wrong what you were trying to ask about keeping the batteries shorted at 0V. Once you've got the battery to 0V at a normal discharge current, it isn't going to suddenly put out high current if you short it out once it's already been discharged to 0V
Andy has an idea for another video. Discharge sodium battery to 0V and charge to reverse polarity. I think this could be the last video of these batteries 😅
Can you charge sodium batteries at freezing temperatures ? I haven't watched the whole series on these .
Yes. Though one datasheet he looked at requested a [20 hour] charge rate below -15C.
@@jamesphillips2285 0.2C not 20C :)
@@upnorthandpersonal no 0.05C I meant 20 hour rate.
11:00 of "12V Sodium Battery Teardown. Who would have thought what I found!?"
-20C to -10C 0.05C (20 hour rate)
-10C to 0C 0.2C (5 hour rate)
0C to 45C 0.5C (2 hour rate)
@@jamesphillips2285 Yeah, I knew you meant that and not 20C.
So might work for a solar powered LoRa node I am thinking of putting up . The other option I consider is a small lead acid AGM.
good analysis and honest opinion and I think so too. Sodiums are not 100% safe either and thats the fact and as far as I know any moisture and sodium will ignite that`s what it does anyway if you throw a piece of sodium in water but I don`t think lithium element itself would just ignite or react in water that violently.
I highly doubt they use pure sodium in there, as much as they don't use pure Lithium in lithium ion batteries. We'll see how safe they really are. Li-Ion batteries are walking time bombs.
@@xxxblackvenomxxx well I am just saying what I know so if Lithium can go into thermal runaway I don't see any reason then why Sodium wouldn't be even easier to do the same 🤷♂️
I'll wait a few years before buying sodium batteries for the price to go down. I'm still convinced of improved safety and cold weather performance. Could potentially even store them outside or at least they will be less likely to catch up in flames inside the house.
For Stationary storage,
Sodium ion battery is best.
Hello Andy, it would be intersting to test how cheap we can make batteries (undressing them) for the benefit of developing countries with so much sun. For example what happens if we don't use a mbs on the salty batteries? Maybe the steep curve will keep the cells ballanced without bms. Would be interesting?
That is far too risky and would only work for a few cycles until the cells start drifting apart. You can also argue that circuit breakers can be made obsolete as the light will also turn on without them. A BMS is a must!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Thanks for the feedback. Do you believe also lead acid batteries require a BMS? Because I can't seem them and each 12V battery has 6 unmanaged cells?
We should take into account that some LLMs have a training deadline of maybe a year ago. Even now there is not so much information available about sodium batteries. This restricts AIs to smalltalk when asked about this topic.
How can I contact you?
Perfect sunny weather down here. Got sunburnt on Saturday. How a wonderful day, Andy.
Allow me to share another experience with battery manufacturers. This time the needed help in recycling. The way to extract and separate the valueable materials is by chemical separation, in order to do this the cells need to be crushed/fragmented...!!!. So, hence they cant have significant charge left. For NMC/NCA this was deemed to be 2,0V. My client already had a method they considered superior, immersion in a conductive fluid. While it worked in the lab (so-so really) we said that industrialzing this would be major headache and really costly. Our recommendation was an automated, adaptive electrical discharge. But no, they wanted the chemical process. So we designed this whila also shaking our heads in disbelief. After selecting a less critical engineering firm, they came back and asked us to suggest electrical method...As you have noted, there is a chemically related rebounce after short circuit, but it is also time/temp related. After a while the cell is dead for all intents and purposes. Perhaps you can "frankenstein" it by some cycling and so on? Funny is the AI is vague and you spotted it right away. In part this relares to the mysterious electrochemical life in a cell, its is not only the main and desired chemical, reverrsible reactions going on but a also smaller side reactions. Electrochemists rarely have a full understanding what they are and its consequences....Your work and discoveries are now reaching right into these domains, very impressive. I have a mentor, a german physicist I would like to tie you up with. Message me privately if you want this.
Hello from Maine. You never asked about inverter technology to work with sodium battery.
There are far too many questions to ask as I said in the video. Feel free to ask the AI and post a summary here in the comments.
Hopefully the AI will look at your findings. The replies do make me wonder just where the AI got its information from. There is a lot of hedging, irrelevance and contradiction. I decided some months back that they would be no use at all for me as a 12v and inverter system user, where LiFePO4 with its flat 'curve' is ideal. I like that I can combine my LiFePO4 with a small lead acid battery which enables me to upgrade to lithium without having to change any of my existing equipment or settings so long as I set the BMS in the lithium battery up correctly. This also enables use with vehicle alternator charging without risk of committing alternatoricide if / when the BMS disconnects on a full charge. Thanks for the info in this series on the sodium battery. I think its place will probably be in high voltage storage with equipment custom designed to work within the wide voltage range. I'm not sure how good it will be in vehicles due to the lower life / usable energy density over LFP batteries although it shouldn't be too hard to modify the inverters in cars to cope with the voltage range.
Here's something a little bit more challenging: how can we make a switch that activates a high current connection (like 100A) when the voltage of a battery drops under a given value (like 48V) ? This is for connecting an emergency battery when a main battery is on low voltage.
It would be wasteful to keep an emergency battery charged all the time just for the rare occasion of the main battery being low. It would be better to integrate the spare battery into the system, so the overall capacity is already larger and an undervoltage situation does not even occur before they are getting charged again.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Emergency one is classic lead, it would not fully charge and drain from the pack to sustain itself. Main will be LFP-NMC hybrid anyway, quite the experiment but it should end up in a "best of both words" thing. Plus I can remote manage the lead battery charger and only activate it when needed. It will not drain anything when I don't want it to.
One tip when you talk with an open AI LLM: at the end of a sentence add "no yapping" to get straight answer to your question.
Ps. Do not judge the whole technology on its very early stages of development. There may be some advancements in the future that will eliminate the major drawbacks.
Nope. This isn't AI at all. This is propaganda made up to look like AI. It's junk.
We don't know what will come in the future. Maybe sodium will improve, maybe not.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia true. Judging on your experiments, the current generation of sodium batteries is not suitable to be used in my Outlander 😜
Will they take off and replace LFP batteries? I agree with you they might not, but at the end it all comes down to $$, if production scales up, prices drop, demand rises for e.g. inverter manufacturers to adapt their new equipment to these extended voltages. But who will tell...
Price is only one factor. It can be cheap as chips but if it is larger and has not the capacity as other batteries, it's not good for certain applications.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia good point, i guess to really get to low prices, it will require a wide application range and high energy density, amongst other parameters is key for that
The current Sodium Gen1 is no match for LFP, but Gen2 will meet and quickly exceeds it. In Germany and Spain CATL is building new factories to deliver the demand on EV. The same process can be used to produce LFP and NA+ batteries. Country's don't want to be dependent on the price politics of Lithium. I think that Gen2 will relatively soon be available for us when Tesla and other car manufacturers demand them and hope then you want to test them also.
We will see how much demand there is...
There is no doubt that sodium batteries will eventually replace lithium in situations like solar storage batteries in residential settings, and grid scale storage. Anywhere that weight doesn't matter. And that comes down to price. Most independent estimates I've seen suggest sodium batteries will have a price-to-capacity ratio between 50-75% less than the best lithium batteries today. The only variable is how long the manufacturing technologies of sodium batteries will take to catch up with lithium.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Yes Please LMFP would be great. There are also Manganese rich ternary batteries and NMx type. The battery industry is moving away from Cobalt and is replacing it with Manganese. The added voltage manganese gives LFP really puts LMFP at an advantage. Plus the higher voltage allows the ability to blend in NMC material to add additional benefits.
The Manganese rich ternary or Lithium rich Manganese batteries will offer low metal costs with higher energy densities than LMFP with the same safety and better recycling. New battery factories will also beneifit because of the ease to produce ternary batteries compared to LFP.
Andy, you should have asked the AI if any of its information gathering sources included 'The Off-Grid Garage'? In the future, if it starts to begin its replies with "well...according to Andy" we will know the real truth! Well after this sodium mini series we sort of do haha!
Haha, go and ask it. Let us know what it says😃
Now please rest some of the LMFP cells that are now available.
With about 40% capacity available for a decent lifespan and lower power density, I'd imagine they'd need to be about a quarter of the price of LiFePO4 batteries for home or industrial storage apart from niche cold weather environments.
Yup and even your niche is not true as to charge EITHER of them let alone for capacity you need to insulate them and have a heater to maintain temps. If you have to maintain temps anyways, then LFP require less maintaining of temps as Sodium ion start losing capacity and C rate for charge/discharge quickly below 20C.