Discharging Sodium Batteries to 0V! Useful or just a marketing gag?
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- čas přidán 13. 03. 2024
- In the last test with the Sodium 18650 cells, we want to follow THE feature we all know about: discharging the cell to 0.0V. I want to measure the capacity gain from 1.5V down to 0.0V and if it is worth discharging that low. Not that this is even possible with any inverters out there, but just for the sake of testing...
Unfortunately, the test failed because none of my testers could actually measure that low, but I accidentally found another interesting feature of these Sodium batteries. This questions though, if the whole 0V feature is nothing more than a marketing argument...
GEB Sodium 18650 and prismatic Sodium-ion cells (scroll all the way down on the following website):
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The UREG message means Unregulated. The electronic load tries to tell you that it can't handle itself and stay in CC mode while the battery voltage is that low. It started doing that at 0.6-0.7V battery voltage, which seems awfully close to a standard diode voltage drop!
Thank you.
Being able to discharge Na-ion batteries to 0V supposedly without harm has nothing to do with gaining additional capacity. This is all about being able to ship large batteries fully discharge to make them effectively inert and intrinsically safe - no chance of them starting a fire no matter how much physical abuse is applied during shipping. The voltage may creep back up due to galvanic voltage intrinsic to the cells' construction but there is hardly any energy at play there: 1.8V @ 0.000A is 0W, 230mA @ 0.00V is also 0W.
UREG on your tester likely means that the voltage is too low to regulate load current.
Wow! The depleted cells were automatically converting the sodium ions back to sodium. This phenomenon occurs within the sodium rich state; it likely doesn't occur in the initial uncharged non cycled cell: it likely stops occurring after multiple cycles as the sodium rich state decreases. So, likely they can be shipped at Zero voltage uncharged.
Here we have a cell which repairs itself, has no thermal runaway, and can be discharged and charged easily at 5c. What more? Berlin and Prussian white has been perfected giving increased cycle life and greater energy density so we're in for pleasant surprise as China's largest energy cell manufacturer invests 1.5 billion into manufacturing of SIB'S. Low temperature capabilities is significant too. This technology doesn't abruptly shut off power but rather slowly tapers off. Excellent video Andy. Lindt Lindor Milk chocolate truffle bar❤
Interesting explanation, thank you.
0314’24/1455h 🇺🇸\ 0315’24/0755h 🇦🇺 Guten Tag Herr Andy. Danke scheon for reviewing/ testing discharge sequence in Na cells. Perhaps about 07 years ago while discharging Li-ion cells, I experienced the similar result , though I was unable to discharge to 0.00V. But found the similar result of voltage rebounding to, even to 3.2V from 2.8V. Sounded / felt like some thing to do with Chemistry. I Terminated test and kept quiet about it.
Thanks for your Na cells test, that opened my eyes. Danke Mein Freund. Have a great day ahead.
Thank you!
Hey Andie, Developer/code owner (sfstar) of the home assistant victron integration here. I'm sorry to hear that the integration isn't working correctly for you. Starting from the end of march I will have time to improve the integration and resolve some of the backlogged issues. Are there specific problems for which you have opened an Issue?
despite what andy said I am about to start using it, so thanks a lot for your time.
Thx from me as well!❤
Thanks a lot Sven. I started using your integration a few months ago without issues and LOVE it.
I am going to open a problem ticket over the weekend with screenshots and all details what happened.
Is it maybe a Victron server issue? My VRM has had a server issue notice all week.....
i was using your integration too but time to time it got stuck. But i dont think its problem of your integration. i experience same problem with other modbus devices used before. I think, problem is in modbus implemetation in HA. i could simulate this after switch reboot, ethernet cable disconnect or so. Then i switch to mqtt and everithing is running.
Next test would be to short a cell in order to KEEP it at 0V for a week and then test to see if there’s any loss in capacity.
On my list for later...
Sooo curiuos to your findings on the diybms. Nice work Stuart!
It will still be a long time until I get it all together. I still don't understand what parts I need. It's super confusing and not beginner friendly. It's a geek-BMS!😉
@@OffGridGarageAustralia you need an esp-32, and some battery modules or the all in one board and a 50mv shunt in the size you want if yo want to test out intgration with victron venus os or cerbo 😉 thanks to you i have it configured to my pi running venus os and a can hatnin conjuction with the diy bms
@@4444voort I probably need a step-by-step procedure when time comes to put this all together. I told Stu to make a video and show/explain all the components needed for his project. The starting point is super high for this kind of BMS and confusing for beginners. Sourcing all parts needed is a huge hurdle as well.
Stuart has a video where there is a very good overview of how to connect all the components, i have some screenshots but I cannot share them here
It's about being able to fully deplete a battery without any damage. So the fact that it is bouncing back after a full discharge is a good sign.
This is also nice for mass transport of batteries, where you want as little energy as possible for safety (yes, there have been fire incidents with battery transport).
Maybe you could do a discharge test with a few of these in series so you can get to a really low voltage per cell?
And after that we need to see if these cells have degraded in any way, but I expect you will show us this in the next video without asking anyway.
Once you deplete batteries in series fully, there’s EVERY chance that some will be reverse charged. That would be the real test. (Haven’t watched the whole of the video yet to see if Andy does that, however I suspect not.)
Yes, so the marketing should be: can be safely transported with 0 energy stored.
As far as I have seen that, they don't go into any reverse polarity when discharged to 0V. The voltage is always pushing back in the correct direction.
@@OffGridGarageAustraliaThanks Andy- great to know. Cheers
It basically means it can also be used in seldomly used batteries, so they can self-discharge as they like without damage. Also the BMSes wouldn‘t need a low voltage shut off
The voltage isn't what makes transporting them dangerous if they have no significant current capacity left. The most they could do is MAYBE create a spark.
We measured 0.3A even at 0V... So there is still charge left in the cells.
Thanks Andy, as always appreciate your hard work. Cheers. 👍
Thanks, Dave!
Salty tests - love ‘em!
DiyBMS - I was using it, but swapped to JK. JK is much easier, much less wiring, active balancer built-in and mosfets.
Interesting you swapped to JK...
I'd argue that you can indeed discharge them to 0V and in fact you did.
The residual energy is so small that as soon as you try to extract it, you fail.
Ultimately this is what makes it safe: there's no leftover energy that can trigger an overheating reaction that would result in a fire.
Yes, correct. This is probably the same with all batteries but sodium does not get damaged in the process.
Lol, has been random cloud lately. I like keeping it simple with my system but super interesting watching all your trials and testing. 👍
Thank you. We make this a weather channel slowly😄
Yah, on measuring current with the voltage that low you basically have to connect up a resistor across the battery and you can then calculate the current by measuring the voltage. I = V / R. It still won't be perfect, though, the multi-meters you have do not have a high-enough input impedance.
A regular multi-meter just won't work in this situation... they can measure micro-amps, but only for low-impedance current paths. The discharged battery has a high-impedance current path. The internal shunt resistor in the multi-meter will effect the results and it won't report an accurate value.
By the way, the same effects can be observed when measuring solar panel output at night. Multi-meters have the same problem.
-Matt
Yes, the equipment is certainly not made for tests with such low voltages. This can be seen as part of the actual battery test as well😄
Very interesting
Thanks Andy!
Thank you.
18650 holder it was not very clear but + contact is connected to clamps holding + side battery. It is short circuit waiting to happen. It is relying only on shabby shrink wrap on cells which likes to be torn, cut and fail.
Yes, Stu was short of heat shrink...
Hi Andy, you have to adjust your counter at wall..
I did!
Thanks Andy for all your entertaining content. If in the future you would like to try and implement Node-red. I will gladly help. Program it for you. If you want? Node-red can be a little intimidating but whiten our solar needs it is not that bad once you understand the basics. And it is very reliable. After using all safety measures in the BMS and the complete system. With node red you make it run even safer and even better. Not the other way round!!!
Thanks a lot for your offer. If I don't do it myself though and learn how Node Red works, there is no benefit in having someone else doing it. HA is much user friendly and versatiler as it integrates with just everything.
Heya, nice test results I guese nobody would have especeted these 0 volt getting back to 1.6-7-8 volts amazing but still there will not much power left in them
Yeah, they bounce back very quickly. As soon as you introduce some load, the voltage goes near 0V again. That is maybe the advantage they are talking about when advertising this feature.
I think the load is towards the internal resistance to heavy to see any end curve. On disconnecting the load, the left-over electrons build-up the voltage. Long-term connecting a load will drain the leftovers i presume, like you already mentioned for a testing item.
Using the power in the lower part of the curve is no big advantage, but the main selling point toward LiFePO4 is that it shouldn't harm de battery when it occurs over a longer time.
A great test is to connect the load overnight and then see the voltage on disconnect. Assuming the tester isn't delevering any current to the battery. When the battery arises to a full load when charging and acting normal, then you know for sure it isn't damaged. Hope you can do this test.
That's what I thought as well. I can try again with say 100mA discharge current from 1.5V upwards...
What may be occuring is a reaction that converts the sodium ions to sodium metal. Unlike lithium the crystals are FCC and wont form dendrites, but sodium is an excellent electrical conductor. What is most likely going on is it is making the cathode material more conductive. The cathode material is a ferricyanide salt called prussian white that is prussian blue but minus the water that gives it the blue color. It is a rather poor condctor.
Interesting explanation...
Thanks Andy
Thank you, Wayne.
I am looking forward to your DiyBMS testing. My name is one of those silkscreened on the back :-)
Stewart says you don’t have any cell boards. I have a surplus of individual cell boards. I could send 16 of the v4.5 boards your way if you’d like. It’s the same protocol and the work interchangeably with the 16S board.
I just have to solder the uC on the boards and program/test them and then send them your way. They’ll be ready to use.
I thought I don't need cell boards any more with the new 16s controller board???
This DIYBMS is sooooo confusing.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia the controller board is just a controller. It has no voltage sense wires. But it is also so much more :-).
One controller board could manage many 16S cell boards. Think of a stack of 16S batteries, each with its own 16S cell board. The Rx/Tx daisy chain loop from controller to 1st battery, then second, etc, then back to controller. One web interface. One configuration, one set of relays, and one CANbus communication to the CerboGX, one data stream to InfluxDB or MQTT destination of your choosing for your stack of 16S batteries. You define which cells are parallel group 1, group 2, etc.
The DiyBMS protocol on the Rx/Tx loop is the same between individual cell boards and the 16S boards.
A minimum DiyBMS setup for a 16s battery is:
- 1 controller board
-1 16S cell board
If you wish to do passive balancing, the the 16S cell board has an optional resistor daughter board but this has a fairly low current capability. The individual cell boards are much better at passive balancing with their 800+ mA resistor array.
The controller board Stewart sent you has a power monitoring chip on it (INA229), so to count mAh in/out, you will also need a current shunt. I believe the documentation for that assumes the shunt will be on the positive side of the battery. I have wired mine to the negative. I am actually piggybacking off of the Victron SmartShunt, which gives me a good comparison of the two monitoring systems.
Now we all have the same question: did the 0-volts excursion reduce the Sodium Cell capacity, SOH or cut life-time cycles ???
We all know the LFP cells can't be discharged below 2.5v per cell without problems, now we need to know for Sodium.
It increased the capacity. It will be in the next video.
Hello from Valencia (Spain).
I love your videos.
Here in Spain we have your brother Juan Olaria.
I want to ask you a question. What do you think of Pylontech batteries?
Thank you and hello to beautiful Spain. Been there many times...
I'm not a fan of Pylontech batteries as they use a 15s setup only and therefore cannot be paralleled with other LFP batteries which all have a 16s cell design). So, once you buy Pylontech, you have stick with them...
Hi Andy, thank you for the sodium battery testing thus far. But now what? Specifically for home storage they don't seem much of an alternative to LFP yet. And you would have to wait for cheap big (prismatic) cells to get to market, anyways.
Did you find out the specific chemistry?
There are already 210Ah prismatic cells on Alibaba. I'm in contact with some suppliers to source some but as you said... it's very hard to make them work with our equipment. It will be in one of the next videos...
Andy, I just read about LFMP (LFP with manganese), which may actually beat sodium batteries to market.
Any chance you can get your hands on some of those cells?
Nothing like this on the market yet. These are lab tests so will take some time to be produced. But I also see this as the next big thing (rather than sodium). Energy density up to 230Wh/kg sound really good!
What if you discharge and then store the cell shorted for, say, a full day. What is the voltage then when you remove the short? Can the cell be charged normally?
Good question. Will it damage the cell?
awesome, thank you !
Thank you.
I would guess the switching dummy load is limited on how low it can go because of the resistance. If it had some smaller value resistors it could go lower. Also at .1V power at .6A is .06watts. So who cares if you can go that low. That's why I say you should give curves show power output vs state of charge.
What is the energy gain below 1.5V. :)
Good Video!
Yes, correct. I was just curious what will happen below this 1.5V. Certainly not worth doing as we have now seen with the 12V battery test here: czcams.com/video/iAbtlVWLzek/video.html
Thanks!
Thank you very much for your regular support, Sree🙏
thanks for testing, where did u buy the Sodium 18650 cells? are they ready for real-life-usage?
Yes, you can buy and use them. Link is in the video description.
@@OffGridGarageAustraliajup got it keep it up, what BMS to use with those? :D
I wonder how they will behave when charging from scratch in a sequential connection without balancing? Will the polarity change on the cells?
I have not seen that behaviour. The voltage bounces back right to over 1V very quickly and the cell can be charged normally.
Hi! Please, I need to know something about the battery tester product (ZKE Battery Tester EBC-A20) that you use in a lot of your videos before I buy it. Does it have the function of saving the data of the graphs easily? Like a file similar to an excel table with voltage and current value along time in many time points.
Pls!! You would help me a lot answering this question! 🙏🙏🙏
Yes, the EBC-A20 and EBC-A40 both can save the data in CSV format so that it can be loaded into a spreadsheet. I do it all the time.
@@DavidPrue Thank you very much for you answer!! Really helpful!! Im going to get a EBC - A20 for sure then. Have a nice day 😄
If you have the load tester still connected, it may be back feeding power to the battery, hence not allowed to discharge properly.
The DL24P can only discharge, the EBC needs to be programmed to charge. Not sure where such a back feed would come from...
Hi Andy, I know it's complete overkill on current, but could you use the EBC-A40L Battery Tester for this test? It appears (from the manual) to be able to discharge right down to 0V.
I'll have a look and test it out. Thanks for the tip. I thought they are all the same...
Edit: I think the problem here is the PC software which does not allow lower settings than 1.0V. This is necessary to take the curve though. Unless I use both testers at the same time...🤔
Hi Andy, have you seen or tried the batmon integration for home assistant yet. I set it up recently and have it communicating directly with my jbd bms via bluetooth. It also connects to jk and others as well. Works great to setup automations based on battery state.
The problem is, the HA computer sits inside my house and the BMS are all in the garage. I only have network connection, no direct BT.
I also use Zigbee inside the house, hence the closer proximity to HA.
I have been using batmon for a few years now. It works great.
What do you think about MQTT integration with Victron Node-RED? Node-Red in the Large Image can update the integrated MQTT server in Home Assistant. At least, it is incorporated. I may need to be corrected. This is based on a video I've seen.
No idea how this would work... as I said, my main focus is on solar battery stuff, not on programming or HA. This is just a tool I'm using, like a hammer or screwdriver. If it does not work reliably, it will be replaced with something else...
NodeRED is officially supported by Victron, so you can be sure it will be working much better for controlling stuff. Plus, it runs on the VenusOS itself.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The fact that a person may not understand how to use a tool properly does not make it a bad tool. 😲
No, of course not. I just don't have the time (and probably interest) to learn Node Red.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia node red is easier than HA in scripting and controlling, harder though on GUI stuff
Hi Andy, im a amateur on this, want to ask you, i guess these test are the same results you will get with a sodium "brick shape" battery like the lifepo4 we are using right?
You mean prismatic vs cylindrical cells, that does not matter.
That is prismatic i didnt remeber the term. Thanks Andy @@OffGridGarageAustralia
Andy this is MikeG from the MikeG channel.Why didn't you recharge the battery to 3.95 after depleting it to 0 volts to show that it has no adverse effects.that is what is important to us solar people
It will have no affects at all if you only do it once. Like discharging a lead acid battery to 0V. If you recharge it, it will continue working just fine even there is some underlying damage done. It will be the long term reliability which is in question here.
If you discharge lead acid to 0V capacity will decrease right away.
Maybe, but noticeable.
Now you got such a nice PCB from Stuart for the sodium batteries and you don't even use it for your last battery test ????? Come on... Danke für's Video :)
It for future projects and testing with 18650. This test was already setup...
The board needs some tweaking as the metal holders need to be protected with some heatshrink to not short the cells...
👍👍👍
Not sure if it matters after a voltage below say 2.5v. What good is a 4S battery at 4v or 2v? Or a 16S battery at 16v? Or ANYseries battery at S*.1v?
It's a test. They advertise it, I test it.
Hello.
I would like to ask you a question.
I want to make a 16s 48v battery. The cost of 16 280Ah cells is 2690 dollars in my country. However, if I make 16s 48v as 3p16s 48v 100Ahx3, the cost is 2390 dollars.
My question is, will connecting 100ah cells in parallel in threes cause any problems? I will use JK bms.
total capacity makes 48v 300ah. ((3x100Ah)x 16) = 48 cells
You can do it, but for safety reasons you should use fuse on each cell. If one from 3P fails, remaining two will push unlimited current to failed. So you will need 48 fuses. Price for this can really cut from your saving.
Voltage witout Amps according to Ohms lav equals zero energy...
your soks get more energy than these battery while while walking on shop floors ;)
This is probably what they refer to when they advertise sodium been discharged to 0V.
Once again another great video, I would like to ask a question about the EBC tester is the power supply 120 or 240 volts and if it is 240 will a 120 volt at 19 v and the correct amps work . Also just a suggestion as you are always talking about shaded panels could the problem trees be topped or trimmed, Also inves some of that beer money into a few sheets of plywood and cover your workbenches, I guess that I may be a little anal about those gaps between the boards. Again have a great day and stay charged.😊
The trees are staying!
David no one said take the trees down simply top and trim, also the last I looked Andie owned the trees NOT David..@@davidpenfold
@@johnturner9561 I mentioned the same thing once, and Andy said no. I'm not in the habit of talking for other people 🙄
The EBC A20 tester uses a notebook power supply with 19V and 3.5A
I had one tester failing (PS burned out and supplied 45V into the tester for a while). I have since got a new tester and replaced the PS with a 19V and 6.8A unit. Much better.
If you would like to come and trim a 50m high gumtree, get the cut branches safely down without damaging the ground, cut them to firewood or remove them from the property somehow, all this without machinery to get to the actual tree or up this high, be my guest. I supply some beer after work.
I wonder how many cycles these Na batteries can do before they hit 50% of original capacity. That would be a good test Andy.
Yes, that would be a good test. But then, it would only test this particular type, brand and model of sodium batteries. Can we conclude other batteries will behave the same?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Well its a good start. We really need to test the cycle life of any Na-ion batteries. I know its early days for Na batteries and some brands might get more cycles than others. But we don't have any idea what they can get now. Samples and data points need to be taken!
I remember reading some research paper that said that Na batteries only get the same cycles as regular Li-ion batteries, it would be good to know.
I'm thinking of building a Na battery for my electric boat as it driven by a DC motor and wont really care about the large voltage drop. Cheers Andy.
Discharge down to 0.0V?
Hmmm... I am not happy to discharge it down to 2.0v, let alone to 0.0V.
Hey Andy, don’t they mean that the batteries won’t be damaged by taking them down below 20% SOC?
I don't know🤷♂️
UREG = Unregulated, not operating in a constant current mode.
Dear Andy, another page change is needed. that 1 is obsolete. Congrats.
I know, I shouldn't have started this😆
Voltage not danger if no amperage (mA).
really? so you would touch a 115kV 500mA line without a problem right ? 🤣 (this is meant as a joke, i get what you mean ofc there are no hundreds of kv on that battery or any battery)
But there is both voltage and current.
Did the cells survive this test?
Yes, absolutely no problem.
yess, Number One
1:20 It is time to update the background again...
I know, I should not have started this...😄
Can it be paralelled with a 12V Lead acid battery?
No, that will damage the lead acid battery.
Also if the voltage will be inside 11V- 14.4V?@@OffGridGarageAustralia
Lead acid should only be charged with 0.1C to prolong life. How do you control the current from the sodium battery into the lead acid battery when in parallel?
I'm not a fan of paralleling different chemistries. I will test it though but don't see a practical use or even advantage of doing so.
All batteries will recover that very low voltage
Yes, correct.
Wenn deutsch rauskommt
you know its frustrating
but nochmal geht always😊
🐸🐸🐸
🦘🦘🦘
advertising you can ship at 0 watts might not make sense to some people. then if you say ship with zero coulums or jules like this is hard to sell. 0V they can get away with and elaborate when asked.
Yeah, very confusing what they actually mean and what the benefit is.
Like# 1
#1 of what, Paul?😄
@@OffGridGarageAustralia #1 Rabid Fan!
Puncture test
We will all watch your channel when you do it. Let us know when your video goes online😉
You still get normal ☁️ all I see is plane exhaust...
Is it right, that you have a german background? You said "nochmal" and your english sounds like here in germany 🤣
What???
use node-red not home assistant...home assistant is kinda closed
I don't know anything about Node Red. It seems far more complicated, I mean heaps more complicated than HA.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Vivtron has it already in Cerbo GX. you need to activate it from cerbo gx.
you can interact with victron directly from node red, basically you can do anything with node-red. I can teach you some of the things. just let me know. we'll find a way to introduce you to it.
Hello Andy....now play with somthing real 3.2 v and use over 300ah batteries...let see what is the new generation. Good luck m8.
Hey Andy, I think you might benefit from a low sodium diet.😂
Yes, I will start right now with that😆
First! (Kidding 😉)
It is a good joke😆
At about 15:50 he gets perplexed about how the fancy test equipment does not allow the battery voltage to stay on zero. Later he clings to his faith about that test equipment even though he does not understand the results. Why not use a voltmeter to check the voltage? Why not use a light bulb to discharge the battery further if needed. Instead, he still thinks the readings he got are valid enough to cast doubt on the manufacturer's claims. Now he wants to ask an AI brain to explain it. When you get a funny result like that then he needs to simplify the over-engineered test to make sure that is goes to zero, and then rises up. He is using a constant current supply that is controlled by software and digital circuits and diodes. I doubt the validity of the test at this time.
If AI has no relevant training data it might just decide to use something related to another chemistry and be *sure* it's true
We will see. I got some interesting information...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia interesting 👀
I don't usually comment, but I had to for this masterpiece. Amazing!
Thanks my friend for your first comment!😉