Atheists Discriminate Against Theists | Jared - Wisconsin | Talk Heathen 02.36
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- Talk Heathen 02.36 for September 9, 2018 with Eric Murphy & Aron Ra.
Call the show on Sundays 1:00-2:00pm CDT: 1-512-686-0279
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WHAT IS TALK HEATHEN?
Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop & support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing & friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of government-religion separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists & to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
NOTES
The views and opinions expressed by hosts, guests, or callers are their own and not necessarily representative of the Atheist Community of Austin.
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It's an old saying, but it's worth repeating: If you're beating someone with a stick, and I come up and take your stick away, _I am not discriminating against you!_
i've never heard that before, but I really like that!
I am a gay Atheist teacher. I had a family of Nigerian Missionaries with 3 children as my students. The Nigerians hated gays. The Father was chastised and demoted in church for his anti-gay, misogynist views. The family was destitute. I anonymously raised $900 in Christmas gifts and food. It was delivered by a stranger so that they would retain their dignity. Tell me again about the morality of christians and the 'lesser' morality of Atheists.
The thing is they will easily contort the logic around that and say "god works in mysterious ways" or simply just thank god for him saving them by working through you. You know because you are in control of your body and can sin, but God can still marionette you when he sees fit.
@@MarjSpiritdoveBut you still don't know who this person is, so it's still anonymous.
An anonymous writer writing an anonymous post based on the anonymous action they did doesn't make it suddenly not anonymous. 😂😂
I can't make sense of this
Look at the morals of the Bible and there you’ll find your shitty morals. If your morals are better than those, then your moral standard is better than your God’s moral standard.
@@a1612 yeah me too. The comment said a lot of contradictory things.
"And then I say that I'm a theist and things get awkward..."
Welcome to the world of the atheist - that's exactly what happens to us when we tell a theist we're atheist.
Happens in all spheres of life ,pershaps with religion it has more of a violence potential -it will have to be real bad for the guitarist to do in the bassist 😂
@@ericscaillet2232 That's only because the best stringed instrument is the violin. Who cares about guitarists and bassists? They might understand how to play music, but they are playing the wrong instrument.
@@GeneralZod99 say that when you repair them 8 hours a day, I like violins but they can drive you nuts
Lol exactly...
@@ARoll925 ...ah the woes of the Luthier. Besides, we all know the best stringed instrument has 6 strings!
"look at it from a theist's perspective.." Are you kidding? I'm constantly surrounded by theistic perspectives! After 5 years of being a fundamentals christian, and 41 years of living In the U.S., I'd like to get away from their perspectives!
Skye ID lol....I hear ya!
+Skye ID, quotes the caller "look at it from a theist's perspective.."
Typical (christian) theist attempt to create a narrative of oppression. "Look at it from our perspective, we are being oppressed by a tiny minority of the population because we aren't being allowed to oppress and demean those we hate anymore"…
I will only look at it from a theist's perspective after my frontal lobotomy followed by electrotherapy and a buttload of heroin-laced LSD.
Skye ID,
Which "belief" is more rational and logical???
Two people, one Christian the other Atheist, are walking through an apple orchard coming upon 377 apples "perfectly" in a row and "evenly" spaced apart.
The atheist concludes "nice accident" and continues walking. Obviously, not thinking anything more about it - as that is how he/she is brainwashed by "secular" society and his/her education to believe.
On the other hand, the Christian sees the exact same 377 apples "perfectly" in a row and "evenly" spaced apart, and concludes "WHO IN THE WORLD DID THAT?"
Which has a more rational and logical conclusion???
Logically, behind "order" is an "orderer". Behind every "building" you see is a "builder" you cannot see.
Behind something that is "moving" there is a "mover" - that caused it to move.
Behind an intelligent "design" is a intelligent "designer".
Now, let’s raise the "accident" odds. For me to write this post I have 3 Billion DNA "perfectly" in a row and "evenly" spaced apart and for you to read this post you have 3 Billion DNA "perfectly" in a row and "evenly" spaced apart, so over 6 Billion DNA working. Now, is that just a random "chance" and "accident" to have 6 Billion DNA in a "row" to carry on this conversation???
www.genome.gov/25520880/deoxyribonucleic-acid-dna-fact-sheet/
evolutionnews.org/2018/04/yes-intelligent-design-is-detectable-by-science/
Is that really a logical and rational conclusion???
Please get to KNOW the supreme "orderer" of this universe, and what He expects out of your life to find "TRUE LIFE" ITSELF.
Now, I recommend you watch former atheist Lee Strobel's "Case for the Creator".
czcams.com/video/ajqH4y8G0MI/video.html
Then listen or read Josh McDowell's "Evidence Demands a Verdict".
czcams.com/video/HRemWMIy2IY/video.html
Follow the "Evidence", facts and "TRUTH" right into the ONE and ONLY established Church of Jesus Christ being the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
May GOD open your eyes and heart guiding you to TRUTH HIMSELF Jesus Christ (John 14:6).
www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
www.magiscenter.com
RiggityRiggityWrecktSonn, they do say atheism leads to delusions and insanity. Actual "science".
www.patheos.com/blogs/faithonthecouch/2013/08/is-atheism-a-mental-illness/
Imagine an atheist going to a church, when the sermon is over that atheist wants to sit around and talk to (debate) Christians when they get done. Imagine how many churches in the US would tell that atheist to not return.
i have been told in Australia mate .
Lee Shackelford
the priest is assuming that he can eventually change your mind.
@@teresaamanfu7408 that is kind of their prerogative. Im not saying they are correct in their "knowledge" of god, or that they argue well or in good faith.. but from their perspective it is the right thing to do. A christian priest most likely believes what he says, and that an athiest is destined for hell -- and many wish to prevent that by converting you.
The priest is also a victim here, even if they do or say heinous things in the name of their god
@@teresaamanfu7408 they realize pretty quick they hold an indefensible position.
I was invited to a friend's church a couple of times. They invited me back, but I told them that I would not because I felt that it seemed to make some of them uncomfortable for me to be there, that it was not my intent to be there to de-convert them. I went fully confident with my position, but totally willing to listen to their positions. When I told them that I did not understand what a blood sacrifice would do for me, they took offense to that, saying that Christianity is not such a thing. I made my argument, and in very short order, the person running the meeting said out loud that Christianity truly is a blood sacrifice religion. Silence. I asked a black attendant how he feels about slavery, and what his opinion was on the support of slavery in the bible. Silence. One person said that the only reason he is a good person today is because he was bad before, then saw Christianity as a way to be good, so he changed. I told him that his morality showed him what good was before he took to Christianity, and not the Christianity that made him good. Silence. They were interesting meetings, and very respectful, for the most part.
I have to admit I don't discriminate against theists per se...but I DO discriminate against a religious person (of any stripe) that use their religion for destruction, bigotry, or just any other insane nonsense.
@Kenneth Schrank yeah bitch deal with it
Kenneth Schrank i dont think that one needs to be a god or anything beyond a normal person to identify things like the crusades, 9/11, abortion clinic bombing etc. Is insane or destructive
Kenneth Schrank If the bible/god says that slavery (owning another person) is ok, does that mean it is ok? Or do people make that determination? So are people god?
I use more of a rationality filter - meaning that if they hold their beliefs within the construct of what (to them) is rational, I have no issue with them even when I don't see or agree with their rationale (it's theirs, after all). When they cross the line in my mind, is when they try to convince me that I (typically: everyone) should adopt their rationale, and persist in an irrational pursuit well after their rationale is refuted or outright rejected. Ultimately, it boils down to a simple concept: honor my right to hold my rationale equal to your right to your rationale, and if your argument is compelling I will give your claims proper consideration - but try to force it on me or apply irrational thinking, and I will feel no compulsion to give your argument undue weight (convince me with a compelling argument, or don't waste your time because you clearly aren't a credible witness).
All too often, they (evangelicals in particular) want to persist with an argument that requires belief without evidence and then emotional hooks to prop up a conclusion that is not supported by anything other than faith. They turn everything around and effect becomes cause, unproven beliefs are treated as fact, wishful thinking becomes knowledge, rationality becomes foolish, belief without evidence becomes noble/virtuous, and so on. The "woo" factor is ridiculous and they create new definitions and phrases to disguise their misuse of established concepts (e.g. "higher truth", as if not being able to measure the truthfulness of a claim can result in something "more true" than a factual event or established truth).
So, yeah, the nonsense part definitely gets under my skin, but mostly because they are typically incapable of realizing how irrational it is to assert anything as "known" or "true" when there is no means to establish the truthfulness in the first place, and they will blindly try to convince others to believe an argument that they (should) recognize is not rational to begin with. So they shoehorn it in, start with a conclusion and work back to cherry pick any anecdotal experience that can be slapped within the framework. I ramble, but yeah - insane nonsense, the lot of it.
T Timeler rightfully so!
This guy said, at about 9:20, that his "god" was "outside of reality". On this, we agree.
Haha. That's right. It's outside of reality, it's not real.
He says that for the argument. But he means Q.
lol true
Outside of reality, which means make believe, abstract idea in the mind
Theists: I'm saving you! Put the shackles back into your mind!!!
Wouldn't something "outside of reality" by definition not be real?
Exactly! A Christian said to me "Why are trying to rationalise God, he is not rational!" I burst out laughing and said "Did you just say God is irrational? In other words crazy?" The guy could not answer because he knew he had goofed.
That’s just an intuitive use of language. What people mean when they say “outside of reality” is that something is separate to the things we can control our own interaction with in any physical way.
As for “God is irrational”, the statement is that there is no logical approach to understanding belief in God.
It’s best to just say “What do you mean when you say that God is outside of reality or that God is irrational?”
@@Stethacanthus no, it is an attempt to remove god to a position where he cannot be assailed with demands for proof. It still fails because you must now then demonstrate how you have obtained knowledge from this irrational god who is beyond reality.
Maximus Reed It can be both of these things. They are trying to describe what or where they think God is. To call it "an attempt" to do anything else presumes knowledge of their intentions which you almost certainly don't have access to. The irrational belief or outside of reality premise is often followed by some form of Pascal's Wager, which attempts to resolve a lack of knowledge by betting to your greatest possible benefit. The answer to "How did you obtain any knowledge from this irrational God?" can be "I don't know, and that's good enough for me" at which point the conversation is effectively over and no one learned anything. You'll be the bitter atheist and they'll be the enlightened one that you don't understand. In a world where atheists are a minority of people, that pattern is perfectly suitable to theism.
Instead of latching onto a linguistic "gotcha" victory, asking for elaboration and clarification often leads to understanding something more fundamental to a person's belief and you can talk with them and not at them.
@@Stethacanthus you weren't there, I can say with confidence what he was attempting based on the flow of the conversation. If he was capable of defending his position, he would have. I didn't end the conversation he did with his silence.
Aron Ra is so good in the talk heathen format. He is fun in the "dumpster fire/shout down the street preacher" format, but in the talk heathen format he is positively educational.The way that every body takes turns and nobody's blood pressure is spiking means that you can hear and understand all the strong and weak points of all the speakers. ... its like watching a slightly more muscular form of street epistimology. I hope he can co-host more often.
'I go into atheist spaces and announce I'm a theist! Why does that make things awkward?!'
Is this caller for real?
sadly, yes he is. people like him really dont see how the group that they belong to treats others.
it's like when white men cry about being discriminated against, especially when they aren't allowed to discriminate against others. they feel they are being attacked when they are treated the way they treat others.
"Magical anthropomorphic immortal" sounds like -my- every middle/high school fursona.
Aron Ra 😮. Smart dude.
I agree with a previous post: I never discriminate against anyone for being a theist. I only have a problem when they use their beliefs to justify discriminating against, or controlling others. Now, if a theist is discussing their beliefs, and speaking rather loudly in a public setting, I will chime in and voice the skeptical viewpoint, but that’s not discrimination.
Yet we haven't seen any evidence of Christians discriminating against anyone just unproven anecdotal stories. Lying to advance a cause SMH.
John H: When my family and friends found out I am an atheist, they all completely shunned me. Sounds like discrimination to me. The reason you’re not seeing it is either:
1. You’re not paying attention
2. You’re completely sheltered, only associating with like-minded people
Or......this is my guess
3. You’re full of shit
John H: You want to know what’s super fucking ironic?
You criticize atheists for claiming discrimination, saying it’s JUST anecdotal evidence. But Christianity/God/Jesus is NOTHING BUT anecdotal evidence, and you’re just fine with that. What a hypocrite. 🤣
@@WinStunSmith
Sounds like anecdotal evidence to me. I can tell you about a young Jewish girl who was *disowned* by her family because she became a Christian.
Your anecdotal evidence isn't a case of discrimination. Your following argument falls flat on it's face. Because it assumes that because I disagree with your argument therefore I am ignorant, clueless, etc...,
@@WinStunSmith
Actually the resurrection of Jesus Christ was witnessed by 500 people. Do you know what discrimination is? Discrimination can only occur when you are deprived of that for which you are entitled. You are not entitled to someone's friendship. Again your story is anecdotal.
And I don't recall critizing atheists....I do recall being skeptical of *your* anecdotal evidence.
Aron Ra is 100% an augmented Klingon!
Atheist Madness , I'm here reading your comments and I can safely say I haven't heard such utter gob-shitery for a day or two at least... I can't help but feel your references to education begin and end with a book, a 'good' book apparently, just not good enough to teach you anything about... Well... Anything! I suggest you enrol in a mature learners course on something other than creationism and sky-daddy worship, and return to the comments when you have an argument that doesn't make you look like a complete shitgibbon!
@@atheistmadness3849 all of Those logical arguments you've argued for have been discredited because God has not been demonstrated as a possibility. The many deist creation myths are all at odds. many sects of the same religions can't agree on the truths of their own holy books. God doesn't seem to care to intervene in anyone's life in a way that cannot be explained by natural circumstance or with any consistency. Most gods own holy books paint them as capricious psychopaths that seem to be undeserving of worship. So no we don't see any evidence for or use of a God or gods that largely appear to do nothing except make people fight each other
@notformebeaky apparently whoever you were talking to deleted all of his/her comments. LOL
Confirmed Dahar Master
@@aliceIMF Yes I just noticed that myself.
I feel like the "nike footprints" analogy (around the 21 or 22 min mark) actually demonstrates one of the biggest issues with religion: when a scientist/skeptic/etc comes upon a verifiable demonstration (the footprint) that the previously understood "facts" ('no one has ever been to the island before') are not correct, they re-evaluate and update their old information. A religious person, however, simply says "well I know that no one has ever been here before, so the footprint must be magic!".
Exactly 💯
The best debatist doesn't exi-....holy shit its Aron Ra!
What in the world is a debatist?
John H A man who can screw you in a debate and debaptist the shit out of you at the same time, with one hand in his back. Happy ?
Mexican-looking black-haired atheist Jesus doesn't exist
Mexican-looking black-haired atheist Jesus:
I worship Bast by providing happiness to my cats, but I don’t really believe (don’t tell my youngest cat, he’ll excommunicate me)
"Faith": A piss poor substitute for thinking.
I have never ended a relationship with a theist, they always rejected me, always.
agreed, i've had several theists that have ended our association due to my atheism.
Best to check their rationality on or preferably before the first date.
Hell im Christian and ive gotten more shit for my beliefs from other Christians then ive ever gotten from atheists.
Yes I just had a female I was interested in reject me once she found out I'm atheist. She told me that my atheism disrespects her God.
@V D.O. Good point. Agreed. I didn't think of that at the time.
Well done aron, great way to get around solipsism "do you agree we both exist."
It is increadible how quickly and easily they get their callers stumbling. I can't believe the callers keep calling. Lol
"If there is a being with magical powers, they can be looked at as a god!"
Harry Potter is confirmed to be a god :D
..not to mention the countless testaments from the prophet Stan Lee. Who has told stories of many gods and they have their own holy books.
@@JKDROB And don't forget the holy movies!
No no no! All of you get it wrong. Only true gospel of truth comes from Enlightened Isaac Asimov:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Look at our civilization from the point of view of Bronze Age shepherds that started the Bible. People, to whom peak of technological advancement was a wooden ship able to (barely) sail across the sea. For them destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah must have been an act of unspeakably powerful deity. For us, it is one push of the nuclear button away.
Perception may alter what you believe is real, but it in no way alters reality.
PLEASE HAVE ARONRA ON PERMANENTLY THANK YOU IN ADVANCE
And then....
A pelican walks by wearing a fresh pair of Nike's
It’s so cute when Theists try to logic.
I agree, but try not to be condescending :)
1:00 caller: "atheist culture... Different breeds..."
Me: different breeds? Maybe. But all from a common ancestor.
Hitchens?
@Kenneth Schrank nah a little more real and apelike
+Kenneth Schrank, writes _"The truth is humans have devolved and not evolved upwards."_
The truth is evolution does not have a direction. There is no up or down, better or worse, more or less in evolution. There is only earlier or later.
+Kenneth Schrank, writes _"That is false. Evolution, it it were true would reflect the reality of what you are claiming. You have humans and you claim they evolved from inanimate atoms."_
This is exactly what I posted about in another post. You're strawmanning evolution by confusing it with abiogenesis. Evolution is what happens to life forms. Non-life becoming life is abiogenesis, you won;t look such the fool if you would remember that. And abiogenesis is only confusing to you because you've imposed some arbitrary distinction between living and non-living matter.
BTW: Evolution has nothing to do with cosmology or the big bang either.
_"This is clearly a demonstrable impetus towards upwards development […]"_
False, you are imposing a valuation of "upwards" based on your own personal likes and dislikes, evolution employs no such valuation. Evolution is based solely on survival and reproduction, if you survive and reproduce your "species" will continue to evolve. But what promotes survival one day may not the next. Bacteria are just as evolved as we are, and if you go by body count or mass, far more successful.
_"[…] and a definite sign of purpose and a form of intelligence or it would be like you just said, no purpose and no inclination towards upwards development."_
Again, you're imposing a valuation of "upwards" where there is none. Evolution doesn't have a goal, it's simply a process. Go look into John Conway's computer simulation "Life", you may learn how complex systems can develop from random input and simple processes -- but probably not.
Definitely not 'kinds' though cause there's no 'evidences' for that.
"...We're in agreement that it's a jar of gumballs even if..."
"There's an even amount in there, by the way."
"You are a heretic and you'll burn."
Bwahahahaha!
("I want him to know where he is going, and still walk there") Clever :). You guys are awesome, keep up the good work.
I want him to know where he is going and still walk there. 🤣🤣😂😅😆🤣🤣🤣
Love Aron Ra! I just want to chill and drink a beer with him
This is an awesome duo! Please have Aron on more!
Thanks, Jared, for calling in and showing your ignorance, in turn, helping create more atheists. You are doing God's work, my friend.
Love the way these two hosts work together. The styles represented here compliment each other really well.
When I hear the phrase "Supreme Being", I immediately think of the floating head from Time Bandits.
Just mentioned Time Bandits today and googled it...there's a series due to be made
"Mum! Dad! It's evil! Don't touch it!"
BOOM!!!!!!!
My mind jumps to the Daleks.
I think of the King from hunter x hunter
"Return what you have stolen"
Good job, nice to hear a conversation where everyone is listening to each other and thinking about what they say.
I don’t know why but Aron‘s voice is magical soothing...I guess god did it :>
Aron would be a perfect Jedi Master. He'd have more would-be Padawans beating down his door than any three Jedi Councils could handle.
You should check out his audiobook for Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism that he narrates himself. 10+ hours of Arons buttery logic.
One time I ended up going to church for some reason (wife’s parents, long story), and after the service, the pastor mingled with the congregation. I told him, “I thought your sermon about Jesus was really incredible!” He said, “Thank you.” And I said, “Maybe you should look up that word.”
I love this call. I .Love. This Call. If you listen closely you can even hear him thinking hard every time Aron drops a logic bomb and just the fact that he had to stop and really evaluate what he was about to say tells me they may have just gotten through the fog a little bit. Good call, good caller.
Wrong place wrong time... i'm pretty sure if atheist started going to churches on sunday and talked about their beliefs there would be some very upset/rude church goers.
I'm just going to add a disclaimer on here real quick to help people out In using this comment section.
Ignore the user by the name of Atheist Madness. They spout false anti atheists comments with incorrect statements and ad hominem attacks. At the same completely ignoring the numerous well researched replies to their insanity.
Don't reply.
Don't engage.
Just disregard as you would a crazy person ranting on a street corner.
So your argument against Atheist Madness is to poison the well? Ok....
Ironically by employing this logical fallacy you demonstrate the madness of atheism.
See above, case in point.
@@atheistmadness3849
No idea, hopefully though they repent, believe the gospel, and receive God's mercy.
John H Can I receive God's mercy in my ass, I just got hemorrhoids.
What's insane is hes having a conversation with himself between 2 different accounts. That's a level of mental illness that goes far beyond functional.
I love your shows. I first started watching you guys when I was about 13. You guys have helped me think more critically about the world instead of the things that are just surface level.
This episode is so much packed with humor, I love it!! =)
I discriminate aginst dumb people who believe dumb things for no reason.
Atheists are surrounded by theists all the time. Everywhere we go, whatever we do... we get god blessed every time we sneeze and every time we offer a dollar to a homeless person. If we're at an atheist convention we're around people of like minds. We don't have to be cautious about tripping over theist feelings. Some of us may be happy to chat with a theist. Personally, in that setting, I wouldn't be. I just want to relax with people I don't have to debate with. Imagine yourself at a church gathering with friends and family, and a random atheist walks up to you wanting to talk. Does it make more sense now?
If you think that's bad....just wair till the atheists find themselves standing before God on judgment day?
@@johnh226 what a horrible fictional setting that you get a hard on for. You're a sadist and God will know that and judge you on it
@@johnh226 if the rapist who 'accepted Jesus into his heart' on his death bed can end up living next to his rape victims in heaven, I think I have a good shot.
@@tlibito
You will have to account for your words here. God makes it clear in His written word that He will judge unbelievers. Repent and turn away from your sin.
@@sharmila8357
That depends on your response to the gospel. If you reject the gospel and die in your sins....you won't have any shot.
"I'm not going to hang you, I'm just going to say that I'm your God" is the most metal sentence I have ever heard and I want that on a t shirt thank u Eric Murphy for that absolute banger
The trick is to be honest and upfront about who you are and why you’re there. If you talk with someone for a while at an atheist convention and then bring it up casually after chatting for a while it will feel like a trap. Like you’ve deceived them.
Dogs and cats living together.... mass hysteria!
Love the GB refs! You guys are the best :)
Matt is still the best ... but Aron ... damn !! those were very good logic bombs !! well played !!
Almost as good as Tracie ! ;) (miss her !!!)
"i understand atheists are descriminated against, but when i go into atheist circles and descriminate against them, they tell me to stop, and i think that's descrimination against my descrimination"
fantastic peaceful informative dialogue from both sides. verbal fluency on both sides. love men with love that use their peaceful side inside of "gotcha" approach.
Discriminating? I live in TN. It is illegal, according to the Tennessee Constitution, for atheists to hold public office.
Tennessee is ranked 9th (of 51) among the U.S. states on both religiosity & poverty. That is the general trend, not just for poverty, but crimes & social ills, like divorce, children out of wedlock, drugs, rapes, pedophilia, etc.
Shawn Simmons So Muslims could be elected and proclaim Sharia law. Good to know.
Article IX, section 2: “No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishment, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.” So that allows Christians AND Muslims running for public office since Muslims consider the Bible a holy book. So, religious Jews, atheists and other believers are excluded, but not Muslisms from what I understand from this article. Muslims consider Jesus "al-Masih".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_holy_books
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
@@chucku00 We all know there are folks out there who claim that this nation belongs to their religion and their religion only. They want legislate their religious rules into law, imposing their belief system on everyone else. If we're not vigilant, Christian shariah will crop up.
Shawn Simmons I totally agree. There should be zero tolerance about religious beliefs in policies whatever these people believe in their private life. Full separation of church and state.
I hate when callers say “your reality”. Nobody has a personal or private reality. If you do then, by definition, you are insane.
Aron is simply awesome. Equal parts intelligent and patient.
Best episode and hosts yet also nice guest. Loved it. Soooo much.
Missed a golden opportunity to ask the caller if he would also feel awkward if he went to a psychologists convention and said, in all seriousness: he has a pink unicorn, who breaths fire and who hates psychologists, sitting in his shed. Some conversations outside the normal setting and/or in the wrong context to the right people will necessarily make the speaker and listener uncomfortable when they speak.
The caller sounded like someone I would enjoy a conversation with, but there would always be an uncomfortable edge due to the differences in factual content between the speakers.
OMG. I love the Dr. Squatch body soap add. So refreshing compared to the ridiculous religious adds that seem to invade our podcasts. And it is hilarious. I think that I will get some for my husband for christmas.
Really? I hate those ads. I hate them so very, very much.
Aron Ra blows my mind. I've been watching his videos for years but his clarity still surprises me to this day.
Great learning conversation !!!
"You are a heretic and you'll burn" - Priceless
When it comes to deities, undetectable and imaginary are synonymous.
One of your best shows ever. Simply because the caller is not trying to push his agenda as the rest of them, but trying to have an intelligent debate with you. Well done guys, well done Jared whoever you are !! :)
AronRa in the house! Yes, that is quality right there!
I live in Ohio and am never around people who agree with me. They seem to be mostly conservative christian and republican, so when I am around liberals or atheists, I love it. I hate always being contrary, but that’s just the way it is.
Yep im in small ass martins Ferry in ohio and theres bout 10 churches
I recently traveled to your state. Upon entering Millersburg, I saw a giant billboard featuring a terrified man running from a fireball. Above him were the words, "Flee the coming wrath...turn back to god."
I thought to myself, why go back to the guy who is causing the problem?
Religionism was rampant in that town, complete with the endemic mysogynism typical of bible belt, Mennonite and Amish towns. The most offensive thing I saw while visiting a restaurant was a poster for a contest for young women. Do you know what the poster said? "Mennonite girls CAN cook!"
Girls are led into the domestic arts alone, and all other occupations ignored.
Even my hotel had books for sale in the lobby...carefully chosen and sanitized bible stories "for children".
I was amazed. The whole culture serves religion...and this happens in America, the originator of secular government...
Jeanette York No wonder why Akron's Mark Mothersbaugh invented the concept of "DE-eVOlution"...
I grew up around Dayton & I understand your pain! I'm currently in Indiana so it's not any better. Just keep reaching out go communities that share your views & you'll know you're not alone!
That's the one thing I dislike about the atheist community, it's overrun with leftists.
And a piece of advice to theists who want to join into a conversation in the type of situation being discussed here, be ready to defend yourself and your beliefs and with things that haven't been debunked hundreds of times in the past. Do some research first, sure everyone at your church might think your argument about irreducible complexity is a great argument, but what does the atheist "community" think about it?
If you're going to argue against evolution, for example, learn what evolution actual is so that you can avoid creating strawmen. If you, for example, come into a conversation and say "a dog has never given birth to a cat" I'm going to immediately write you off as an ignorant fool.
P.S. Telling me what I think, or what I believe is never going to go over well.
Theistic stupidity is the only thing that is irreducibly complex. Intelligent design & irreducible complexity was flushed down the toilet by Science, in the 2005 Dover trial as being comparable to Astrology. LOL!
Ha Ha! The same clown Michael Behe, who was forced to admit in open court that Intelligent Design was no more scientifically valid than Astrology? The same Behe, whose own Lehigh University, Pennsylvania biology department, where he works EVEN TODAY, put out an 'official statement' disowning his ID & IC garbage?
How much more worse can it get for those pseudo-scientific creatards like Behe, Meyer & other jokers from the non-scientific Discovery Institute? The very reason it went in front of a judge in the first place was because the entire scientific community worldwide has rejected ID/IC as junk pseudo-science.
The prestigious U.S. National Academy of Sciences, with about 2500 of the most 'elite' scientists as its members, who provide science advice to the nation, has published several books supporting Evolution and criticizing Creationism and Intelligent Design.
I REPEAT - ID & IC has been flushed down the toilet by science & its supporters (aka IDiots) are only wallowing in its inherent IDiocy, consoling themselves with their pathetic videos, debates, talks with each other, while being completely & thoroughly ignored by the people that really matter. LOL!
+Atheist Madness, writes _"Duke, I realize you're a gullible atheist, but if you think court cases and judges settle science, you are a real idiot."_
They can settle what does and doesn't qualify for as science for the school system though, and creationism doesn't qualify.
_"Nobody has put a dent in irreducible complexity."_
Irreducible complexity has been shown to be complete bullshit, I don't know if that would be considered a dent or not. First it was the eye, then we demonstrated how that developed, then it was the bacterial flagellum until its development was fully explained. What is it this week?
_"The atheists lawyered up to squash ID from getting a hearing in the public schools. That how atheists operate."_
They operate by expecting schools and school boards to abide by the Constitution? The rascals!
_"That doesn't do anything to disprove ID."_
The Dover trail showed clearly that creationism is not science, in any way shape or form.
_"ID is on very solid intellectual footing - irrespective of the committed atheists invested in denial."_
Creationism is myth and legend, and that's being generous.
_"Any non-biased person who looks at Behe's arguments and evidence will see that he is correct."_
Any intellectually honest and rational person will admit that Behe's arguments are complete bullshit, that includes Behe himself.
_"That's why atheists needed his work censored."_
You're free to teach your religious bullshit in your homes and churches, you just can't do it in science classrooms -- it's that pesky Constitution thing again…
Atheist Madness Spank me with your strongest piece of mind, Daddy. I've been a nasty atheist bitch and I need your righteous punishment. Whatever floats your Noah's Ark.
+Atheist Madness, writes _"Duke, I noticed you have no defeator to anything Behe argues or the evidence for ID."_
Why would he need a "defeater" when Behe himself has admitted that it's superstitional bullshit?
_"I don't care whether ID is 'science.'
If you want it taught in science classrooms you should care whether it's science or not.
"_I care whether it's true."_
And it's not -- so there's that.
_"It's clearly the most rational inference from the evidence."_
That's it? That's your best shot? A mindless, unfounded, unsubstantiated, baseless claim that it's the "most rational inference"? Seriously? Well the court in the Dover trial certainly doesn't agree with your assessment and neither does (basically) the entire scientific community.
_"Whether ID is 'science' or not is irrelevant."_
Again, when the topic is teaching it in science classrooms it is most certainly relevant.
_"You and the atheist clowns who suppress ID have failed to demonstrate it's not correct."_
And there's the Shifting of the Burden of Proof Logical Fallacy -- I knew it was coming. You have the burden of proof to show that it's correct, the rational position is not to consider it accurate until you have.
I see Aron Ra, I watch and listen.
I saw this in the list, and dropped out of a Matt Dillahunty video to watch.
How about showing up at a church meeting and mentioning that you're an theist...? How well do you think that would go?
I guess you mean "atheist". Depends on the church. I went to a Pentecostal church in Newport, Wales once and they were fine with it and I had fun.
Obviously I go to weddings and Christenings etc. I always make a point of telling the minister I don't believe and won't be singing hymns etc.
I've not been pushed back on yet.
Great idea! I would like to do this!
If you said "theist", most would not know what you meant. Some might assume monotheist and wonder if you were Muslim or Jewish and being dodgy. Someone might ask what kind of theist, someone would think you said atheist. Interesting experiment.
Wow. This guy is great -- smart, reasonable, self-aware, polite and honest. Why can't there be more theists like him?
Because being smart, honest and reasonable usually precludes overt theism.
@Kenneth Schrank
You have never met most atheists, that itself is childish.
+Kenneth Schrank
To which I ask the question that atheists always ask theists, and with which theists have so much difficulty: Where's your evidence?
@Kenneth Schrank
It's simply not enough, you can't generalize People based off your experiences on CZcams. Very childish idea.
@Kenneth Schrank
You said that you knew the majority of atheists personally.
You failed to follow through on your claim.
Yes you are childish.
Late to the party on this post: I really enjoyed this conversation. Jared was open to having an honest discussion. From my experience with theists, they were closed minded and just wanted to preach at me. There was no back and forth banter attempting to get on some sort of common ground and then move on to a productive discussion. That's what really pushed me further into anti-thesim. I wish I had your patience and eloquence.
I enjoyed this conversation.
Lol I’m not afraid to tell people I’m atheist, but it’s generally easier to just tell people “I don’t believe in religion, but I believe in god” and somehow more people can respect that and don’t ask me any questions lol.
I don't really use the word atheist, but I am honest and say I don't believe in god or gods or fairies or goblins or demons. If I feel mean I say I don't believe in god or santa claus or the tooth fairy. That shuts them up too.
If you believe in god, then you're not an atheist. Or if you're an atheist and you say that you believe in god, then you're lying to people.
Aron you were GREAT today. Well you are always great but EXTRA great. Today was one of your good days...
Atheist Madness how does haveing tatoos or not having a degree (or both) make someone a clown?
Is that what you are saying? I just want to make sure I am not misrepresenting your position?
Atheist Madness was Aron am atheist before the internet, specifically social media, was created?
Atheist Madness
1. What does a lack of a degree have to do the competency of the content one produces? Does it effect the truth of a claim?
2. Is the way we look, the way we conduct ourselves effect the content we produce? The truth of the claims?
3. Does Arons look effect the competency, the truth of the Phylogeny Explorer Project that he is heavily involved in? Does the way he carries himself effect the truth claims of his Phylogeny series on CZcams? His falsifying Noahs Flood series?
Whoever Atheist Madnes is (or was) I'd like to see him walk into a biker bar and insult Aron's "look" as clownish. And the dragon tattoos he and his wife have represent their heritage.
Very impressive moderators . . . Sharp, clear, concise, pertinent!!
You know you’re the first one on that beach because those footprints are the camera mans who’s recording the reality tv show you’re taking part in.
I almost feel sorry for this guy because Eric and Aron tore him apart. Almost.
Not all gods are immortal, though. The Norse gods are long-lived but they _do_ perish during Ragnarök.
Theomachy is a little different from regular living-and-dying though, isn't it?
Kenneth Schrank proof?
@@somethingsomething922 Oooooh, I'll have to look those up! Thanks for the tip! One good turn deserves another: if you have never read the Lay of Thrym, get thee a copy (the Gutenberg Project definitely has a copy online). My Scandinavian mythology class unanimously concluded that whoever wrote it "did it for the lols". ;p
P.s. Now that I think of it, the Hellenic gods weren't immortal either. Nigh impossible to kill, yes, but not wholly immortal. The only instance of it happening I can think of is Phaethon, but one is enough to show they _can_ die.
@@Amigo21189 Hmmm, I can see where you're coming from, but godly immortality as I understand it is more literal than than what we usually refer to as immortality (eg. "Vampires are immortal but you can kill them" which technically means they're long-lived, not immortal).
For example, I'd venture to guess that according to Abrahamists it's impossible for anyone or anything to literally kill their deity (Jesus notwithstanding).
But even if we were to take your point into account, the Scandinavian mythology makes it very clear the gods are not seen as immortal:
For starters, their immortality comes from magic golden apples which grow on an orchard guarded by the goddess Idunn.
Additionally, the tale of The Otter's Ransom explicitly states that if Loki cannot collect the ransom money rightly owed to Otter's father, Odin's and Hoenir's lives will be forfeit in recompense instead (which implicitly suggests they can very much be killed).
As to Ragnarök, the incident which ultimately sparks the war is the death of the god Baldr (he gets killed by being having a sprig of mistletoe thrown at his head, of all things. That's gotta be the deity equivalent of "drowned in a puddle" of embarrassing ways to die, hasn't it? Lol).
And during Ragnarök itself many of the gods are killed by non-deities (though, admittedly, in some instances in the battle "non-deity" can include beings like Fenrir the Great Wolf, who's pretty badass in his own right). The battle is also not solely between the gods; it's basically a free-for-all brawl which includes the souls of deceased humans. (Sidenote: I'm kinda fuzzy on the requirements for what qualifies as a theomachy; can only the gods be involved for it to qualify or can other beings be involved too?)
Norse mythology isn't the only instance of mortal gods though: in Ancient Egyptian mythology Set very definitively kills Osiris, and eventually Hours in turn kills Set after a long back and forth of battles.
The Hellenic gods were also definitely mortal. Sure, it was nearly impossible to do it and you had to be the stupidest deity on the planet to get yourself in a situation bad enough for it to be fatal... but sure enough, there's always that one idiot (in this case Phaethon). As far as I recall he's the only example of a Hellenic deity dying, but it's enough to show it _is_ possible according to the religion's mythology. (It also shows that Phaethon was just some special kind of stupid but I digress)
@Kenneth Schrank Bullshit. Skeptic Atheism specifically parts from the belief that no claim should be believed until there is sufficient verifiable evidence to support it, _regardless of who said it._
You're trying to allude to the false (and frankly dishonest) claims that
a) Socialism and atheism are linked (they're not), that
b) Socialism and Communism are interchangeable (they're not) and that
c) Socialism, Communism, and Stalinist Fascism are interchangeable (say it with me, kids: they're not!)
It's a stupid argument because it has no evidence to back it up (let alone the fact that it requires a lack of understanding of both atheism and the political concepts getting dragged into the conversation for absolutely no logical reason). There are _plenty_ of examples of theists following a cult personality.
For example:
- The evangelicals following Trump (one dude has even legit made the argument in court that his MAGA hat is a religious piece of clothing and to deny him service because of it violates his religious freedom).
- Russia is currently extremely religious in their government policies (eg persecution of gays), and the country has revolved around an adoration of Putin for nearly two decades (complete with pop songs about how all women want "a guy like Putin")
- Francisco Franco was very much a theist in a massively theist country
- Hitler was a theist and leader of a theist-majority country
- During the Vargas Era the Brazilian Department of Information and Propaganda promoted a Messiah-style image of Getúlio Vargas.
- In North Korea people are brainwashed into believing the Kim family are literal gods who must be worshipped and venerated (and they supposedly can read minds and will know if you're not being honest).
For me personally I shut down a bit when someone tells me they are religious in the same way I do when I figure out someone is a smoker.
If you haven't quit by this point there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.
Loved this episode! Truly deep
hey jared your book has the age of the universe wrong by 13.7 billion years, it's 13.7 billion not 6,018 years as your book claims. Quit being silly.
Christopher Ian Lister hey be nice! I think the bible can be interpreted to say the solar system is 6000 years old (light = sun? Earth etc). That’s only with in ~ 4 billion year of reality, i’d say it qualifies being taught in science class
In all fairness, the Bible didn't actually give an age to the universe. The 6,000-ish number was arrived at by a priest counting backwards using probably incomplete and definitely inconsistent biblical geneologies.
I mean, the creation story in Genesis is clearly and demonstrably wrong in many, many, many other ways, but the 6,000 years thing is more fanon than canon.
As we say in dark souls. You died.
Lol and think about how were always killing religious guys in dark souls, bloodborne and sekiro. Deacons of the deep,the healing church,the monks. Kinda fun as an atheist to kill them all😂
I've always loved and found it hilarious how Patches hates clerics.
You guys just are great at explaining things.
possibly one of the best segments I’ve heard! Especially since he was an open-minded theist as he went into this conversation, I think at the end he realized he might be wrong.
I am quite sure people would not like it if go to a church and after the service I would challenge other who attended the service with my atheistic viewpoint.
Some might like to have a discussion but I am sure most of the people there didn't come there for my "preaching".
I just find being surrounded by religion and being preached at is deplorable. Leave ppl alone. Your belief is an opinion,not facts. Go away and leave us alone.
Forget Anakin Skywalker; AronRa has brought balance to the Force.
honesty what a great place to start
Like Aron said, I want to be proven wrong on what I know. If somebody has definitive evidence for God that can't be refuted in any way then I want to hear it. But you have to bring your A game and if it's just an appeal to emotion or reason or whatever then that's simply not good enough.
You gotta have balls to be a Christian and say "I am being discriminated against"
One of the best ways of improving and refining one's quality and quantity of knowledge is by talking to and arguing with people who's out looks and perspective is different from your own
And in an assertive manner - not by calling anyone names or making judgmental comments.
Exactly. You also need to listen. Something these callers don't seem to want to do. Sure, the hosts often don't listen either but it is because they have heard the argument a thousand times and don't need to hear it again. Bring something new theists! Of course, they can't.
“When truth starts to be relative it ceases to be truth.” - Lindsay Walker
Multipass.
I had to.
why are Supernatural/Spiritual Beings given Sexual pronouns?
Because in most religions men control everything.
@@MrKit9 maybe so - but Women who ran Religions used a sexual pronoun(feminine) for their Supreme Being(mostly a Mother). I think it is pure Human(regardless of sex) anthropomorphism myself
@@misterinadequate3518 Although there are androgynous gods. I confess I don't give it any thought as it's all sewer filth.
Great question!
Well because God's were invented as an extension of our psyche so to say. In polotheistic religions there are also female goddesses.
I appreciate that this caller starts out on a good note of trying to learn how to converse with others.
Sad thing is how pathetic he became toward the end. He reminds me of my Uncle John - a devout Catholic who was also a brilliant engineer - was a big part of designing the first CAT scanner. He is a great guy, and far from stupid - until he tries to drag me back into the faith, and then he always ends up gibbering like this guy. I love the guy - and he loves me, but I can't buy his bullshit. I once asked him, if he were designing some important machine, and someone showed him an ancient book that claimed to say how to do it, would he accept it on faith? Or would he test it to see if it was correct? His reply was that knowledge of "god" is different. It is so sad.
Aron Ra...what a legend. 🙌🏻 Tried everything once and thought about the world from a rational perspective. Made conclusions based on evidence and ended up on a show like this because of it. Would love to see Aron, Rationality Rules, Cosmic Skeptic and Matt on one show together.
Them poor persecuted theists ... so christlike, just without the personal sacrifice ...
I pass 5 churches on my way to work. I feel so sorry for them being so oppressed. I mean without oppression every building would be a church!!
“Outside of reality”
Sooo.... not real?
"Since I am convinced that I know the truth already, I would discard real world factual data." That said a lot!
I love how i got an ad from prager u. Hilarious
Listen, Theists, science hasn't figured it all out, yet, but that's not evidence of god(s). With all that science has disproved, from the Bible alone, the evidence of god(s) dwindles more and more, everyday. Unlike Eric and Aron, I'm tired of having the same conversation over and over with Theists, that just turns into angry, name calling. Here's what I have to say, if there is a god and it wants me to believe in it's existence, being a god, it should know where I live, it should pay me a visit and show me some evidence. Then, I'll believe in it, but I still can't say that I'll worship it. It should stop sending these angry, little, evidence-less humans to try prove that it exists. Thank you
Aron is tired of the same arguments "refuted a thousand times", his frustration sometimes shows, and silly people complain of his not being a saintly automaton of patience. Watch his "PRATT" series, an amusing and effective take on this.