Einstein VS Jung | Imagination VS Fantasy
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 06. 2022
- Jung spoke at length about fantasy, and how it can be used for working with the psyche. Einstein, however, had a different approach for working with imaginative material arising from the unconscious. In this video, we discuss which approach is better-suited for personal development: actively working with the spontaneous generation of unconscious material, or, actively generating it ourselves as a virtual holding space.
Today’s show hosted by Steve and Pauline Richards, & James P Dowling.
Jung To Live By, presented by the Institute for Psycho-Systems Analysis™, is creating videos and podcasts on Jungian Depth Psychology for personal development and study.
Visit our website:
www.jungtoliveby.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📚 Books and Manuals
Instant download handbooks, the IPSA Collected Works, and a Universe of Jungian Fiction
jungtoliveby.com/book-shop/
➡️ Shadow Integration Manual (free download)
Complete introductory guide the psychodynamics of the Shadow
Free Download:
jungtoliveby.com/shadow-integ...
➡️ Discover your Personal Myth
Our flagship handbook for personal development ~ Become Who You Are, and "Know Thyself"
Available worldwide on Amazon:
jungtoliveby.com/discover-you...
➡️ Hypnotherapy Handbook
Learn the basics of Self-Hypnosis
Digital Download:
jungtoliveby.com/product/hypn...
➡️ The Charing Cross Method
Restore your vitality and recover from Burn-Out
Digital Download:
jungtoliveby.com/product/the-...
💬 “Grail Knight” Discord Server (Elite Membership)
Instant access to our Personal Development/Deep Study server, with thousands of posts by Steve Richards and a community of peers
jungtoliveby.com/product/jung...
🏛️ Professional Training
Become a Psychotherapist, Hypnotherapist, Coach, and Psycho-Systems Psychotherapist through our online professional training course, under the direct tutorage of Steve and Pauline Richards
jungtoliveby.com/professional...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Music used:
"The Hibernian" by Mike Bastow and Luke Jennings
🏛 Applications for Cadre 5 of our IPSA Professional Course are now OPEN 🏛
All the details are on this webpage:
www.jungtoliveby.com/ipsa
When I was a more neurotic man, fantasy was an ever-present aspect of my life. Incessant daydreaming. My life was quite literally passing me by as I re-lived the same fantasy narrative each day. I lost years to this. When the escape into fantasy began when I was a teenager, it kept me together and was a suitable crutch for me to lean on. I leaned on it too much however and the adaptive quality the fantasy had quickly lost its utility and held me in stasis.
Only many years later into my 20s did I finally escape that state I was in, with the collected efforts of close friends and colleagues, as well as my desire to make something more of myself. Those fantasies now are nonexistent to my internal life. What once was a daily occurrence that insisted itself upon me is now barely a forethought; it is now simply a marker along the trail I've walked.
As I've begun to understand the Meta-Instincts for what they are within my own life, I discovered only 3 days ago at time of writing that contact with the Meta-Instinct has a wholly different character to that of fantasy. The updating of my Self-Concept was immediate and the understanding of my context as a human being within a natural environment was as well. Where the fantasy would beckon and give nothing but repetitive time wasting, the imaginary prompts given by the Meta-Instict presented a clear and open contractual agreement. It *was* the context and calling to live as a human, unimpeded by yet understanding of the blessings and impediments related to existence.
It was a simple yet profound discovery which words fail to articulate properly. The most natural experience I think I've ever had.
Hi again Zach, thank you for sharing your profound insight, it’s arisen from your honest and authentic engagement with the task of Individuation. Respect and Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline 🙏🙏
This feels personally impactful for me, as I’ve been hard pressed to step up to what reality has to offer, from several directions simultaneously. As I abandoned fantasy under that pressure, I simply waited to receive what I needed. What I experienced in a moment was orders beyond anything I’ve fantasized. I can’t even imagine turning back now.
Hi again Banal Vulgarian, you’ve had a tough journey and you’ve been very generous in sharing your progress. Fellow labourers in the vineyard, will understand. Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline🙏🙏
@@JungToLiveBy Thanks, Steve and Pauline. After all the knocks I’ve taken, especially recently, your kind words are most appreciated. 🙏
What an interesting topic.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"- Einstein
So aquiring a lot of knowledge can be sort of a holding space for fantasy (knowledge-fantasy). What I understand from that is that imagination needs to interact with the knowledge to be put to use in action in the world, so it has a purpose. Without it knowledge is essentialy fun facts "hey did you konw that..."
Great video guys, enjoyed it.
Hi again godo, yes, you’ve assimilated the understanding of how imagination furthers knowledge, and how fantasy is a holding space, that should only ever be temporary. Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline 🙏🙏
"The main impediment to experiencing the unconscious as it is is the insistence that it must wear the mask/the persona of a specific psychological theory. Immediately that changes everything in the wrong direction, and we have to get away from that. The advantage of hypnosis when it's done properly is that you do experience the unconscious as it is."
"So basically, (hypnosis done properly) it allows you to bypass complexes and internal projection and allows you to go straight to the unconscious."
-Steve and Pauline Richards
Absolutely amazing video guys! Thanks!
Cheers Nolan, your journey has been authentic, and I am privileged to have witnessed ypur personal and professional development. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
Thank you for such great insight, another important distinction. Best wishes from Bolivia.
Blessings, Carlos Rolland, Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline 🙏🙏
Very good, I can see the distinction, that's why soap operas are so addicting. I never understood the fascination of watching problem after problem pop up and why is my mother so engaged in it. So many projects she had prepared for, not beginning and things begin to expire. It's very important to start to know and how to finish. Setting things in place so another can start.
Hi again Amarillis Melendez, thank you for your thoughtful insight and contribution. It’s very much appreciated. Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline 🙏🙏
I like how Steve and Pauline emphasize the goal-directedness of imagination, which I've found as the best marker for differentiating between what is being produced and directed for action and serves the whole person vs the repetition compulsive-like fantasy of Janetian complexes which serve 'themselves'. I noticed too, within my own personal development, that from building my ego strength, I am able to notice much better, fantasy seperate from myself and it's given a better understanding and ability to understand my own transference embedded within those fantasies as part of my own PM process. Thank you to the JTLB team for such a wonderful video and insight.
Blessings Fordy, yet again, your dedication and hard work show your professionalism at the highest standards. Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline 🙏🙏
@@JungToLiveBy Thank you, to you and Pauline, for your support and the nonstop work put into this field and the teaching to another generation 🙏
Blessings Fordy Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline 🙏🙏
So much truth in this. I'm not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but when I found love and married my wife, my pull to watch fantasy diminished greatly. Now we have a baby on the way and I'm finding the pull to watch get less and less with every passing month. I feel like I am on the right path and I'm finally understanding the why of my past behaviours thanks to you guys. Much gratitude to you all once again.
Blessings to You, your Lady Wife, and your Baby on the way. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
Hi, when you say "it emerges from within", it is soo spot on for me, it's like a finished painting that emerges from the underworld, and then my conscious is like "ohh what is this", but it does not feel like it's a part of me, like it's a revelation from the holy spirit...is this the genome??
Hi okay, thanks for your comment. You could model it ‘Meaningfully’ as being either the Holy Spirit, or the genome. Your Ego position would be the same either way, but the value of intrinsic meaning, for you, over your creativity, is that which matters. Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline 🙏🙏
Very important topic, especially among the demographics that are drawn to this channel, myself included.
To this day, I’ve always been heavily invested in fantasy, mostly through video games. It’s been an addiction of sorts for me for about 20 years. I’m drawn to mostly the same kinds of games: open world action adventure set in medieval time periods. Interestingly this has been a fantasy I’ve been drawn to as far back as I can remember, even before video games when I’d play with action figures or play with sticks in the yard. I can’t seem to pull myself away. Most weekends I waste away with a PlayStation controller in my hand. Every time I think about actually doing something productive I suddenly become completely exhausted, as if all the life force is being sucked out of me to keep me from breaking away. How do I go about breaking free of this?
Hi Jake, essentially, your psycho-social homeostasis, needs a re-set. The resistance you experience when you attempt to change, is the result of a sub-optimal setting, being taken as ‘habituated.’ The PlayStation games, as you understand, present as a virtual holding space (by substitution) for real-world adaptation, along the lines discussed in the video. To change, your Ego’s self-concept needs updating, so that your psycho-social homeostasis adjusts in support of it. As things stand, your comment suggests that your homeostasis acts to support the virtual version of your meta-instincts. I believe you’re on the Discord? That’s the best place to work this through. Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline🙏🙏
@@JungToLiveBy thank you. It’s something I’ve known has been a problem for a long time but this video made me realize how big of a problem it actually is. I’ll do some reflecting and follow up in the discord. I deeply appreciate everything you guys do for the community that’s been built here and in the discord. 🙏
Blessings Jake 🙏🙏
New to your channel but great discussion and respectfully framed dialogue, subbed !
Welcome @shogun9450, thank you for your kind comment and support for the channel and our work. Respect to You and for Your Journey, Kindest Regards, Steve & Pauline🙏🙏
Thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. I loved the comment about myths being a product of and even a dialectic with a collective imagination. This not only allows myths to be demystified by also allows it to have clinical value as those myths do have personal significance as well. Amazing!!
Blessings John, your professional experience and developed character, show through, in all of your posts. Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline🙏🙏
As always, incredible content, thank you Steve, Pauline and James.
Kindest regards / Edvard 🙏
Blessings Edvard, you are one of the best of your generation. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
This is so helpful, thank you.
Beautiful. I'm so glad to hear you speaking more of Pankseppian instincts. I've found it to be one of the most practical and accurate frameworks for understanding the psyche as of yet.
Hi, Hideaway Coaching, thanks so much for your support. The integration of Jung and Pankseppian Instincts, by IPSA has been published in the Proceedings of the International Neuropsychoanalysis Society this month. Kindest Regards, Steve🙏
So good! And as often happens- the timing of this topic really resonates :)
Blessings Joy, Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
Yesterday I read some text with a title "Individuation is not the divination" (religious text, some thinkers from eastern orthodox church) where there is a segment about imagination and fantasy. That caught my attention instantly, and now your video pops-up. Here in Serbia, today we are celebrating "Vidovdan" (St. Vitus, Svetovid in slavic mythology), so is it message from the divine realm, synchronicity or mere coincidence? :D Great video!
Hi enxiom, to address this, I’d suggest that you ‘hold in mind’ consciously, that there’s a possibility that this is synchronicity. Then ‘ask’ internally, and respectfully, to be allowed to understand more. Then see how the unconscious responds. Some synchronicities align in order to build receptivity to an ongoing and developing dialogue. Kindest Regards, Steve and Pauline 🙏🙏
@@JungToLiveBy I appreciate your kind answer and thank you so much. I wish you all the best.
Blessings 🙏🙏
Potent, useful and elegantly delivered thank you.
Cheers, Dan Maertens, Kindest Regards, Steve🙏
Thank you so much for this !
Thanks Richard, that's very kind of you. We have a Part-2 coming out today June 30th. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
Great video! Thank You!
Hi Alessandro Eeri Laupmaa, thank you for your kind comment. Kindest Regards, Steve🙏
I’m just trying to clarify this Genome business, from what I understand the Genome is the DNA or instructions for an organism and this doesn’t make a lot of sense to me communicating with the genome. Are we really saying connecting with ourself by connecting with out DNA and that our DNA has a form of consciousness.
Hi Paul, thanks for your comment. I'll have to be brief, here, I'm afraid, as the level of potential detail is enormous, but I hope this helps: The genome is the sum total of all genetic information within a cell, and thus, as you've said, the "instructions" for building an organism. Every cell in one's body (minus the gametes) has the same genome, but, not every cell has the same properties: rods in the eye are different to the cells that compose the epidermis of the skin, for example. The reason for this difference in manifest properties, despite having the same DNA, belongs to the field of epigenetics: not all genes are turned "on" or "off" at the same time, in any given cell. The difference in algorithms of "on" and "off" in comparative cells gives rise to the different properties. Considering Steve and Pauline's Psycho-Systems Continuum (the biopsychosocial model), instincts and complexes will both have informational representation in the biology: in the DNA. I've discussed the reasoning (necessity) for this, from the biological angle, briefly, in the "Logos Vitae" video on this channel, and it is expanded on greatly in my upcoming thesis, which will be published for general release this year. As instincts and complexes both have informational representation in the DNA, both also, de facto, have informational representation in a transcriptomic (gene expression, broadly, but not exclusively) profile, too. Thus, "communication" with the genome, as elucidated by Steve and Pauline, means, from the genetic angle, a literal alteration of the transcriptome mediated by psychology, away from complexes, and towards instincts, as per intentionality of both. The difference between the two, genetically, as mediated by psychology, is also discussed in the upcoming thesis, but, briefly, on the consciousness angle, the genome simply "does what it does". That is, through innate kinetics and thermodynamics, due to its cellular context, it interacts with the environment to release "human potential", in line with lifespan adaptation. Thus, the consciousness innate within DNA isn't "ego consciousness" - this is an essential point raised by Steve and Pauline, and addressed most recently in our series on Synchronicity. The human genome certainly has a telos, but, in order to model it, one has to step outside of the ego and move down into the physics. Reciprocally, using Steve and Pauline's informational monism approach, this has huge implications for what we call "consciousness" in the first place. Hope this helps - all the best, James
Some thoughts:
I think this version of fantasy is abound in many massively online role playing games, and in role play forums where many people use as this “holding space” for their libido. I see in “serious” role players their “acting out” of their social/power fantasies in lack of real life social interactions and close relations.
Another thought is about the learning of philosophy. I was having a chat with a friend about it recently where I described philosophy education as one’s training of one’s orienting principle (compass). However, like fantasy, people can get lost obsessing over their compass and not actually using it to go places (engage with life). At which stage you go “what’s the point?” I have a feeling this is why many philosophy teachers are so dull as they themselves have clearly not used their vast knowledge for engaging life-it’s been put in the “holding space” instead.
Hi again, Michael Chan. Very astute observations, thank you for sharing them. I continue the debate with Professor of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, Dr Erik Goodwyn, in the next video. Kindest Regards, Steve🙏
This is such an important discussion! So many of my friends are trapped in different forms of excessive fantasy, movies and series for some, ideas for others. Throughout my life so far I have also been often stuck at having imaginary conversations with people as a form of imaginal rehearsal. No doubt this has been helpful to craft some arguments and prepare for certain discussions but at times it has also just been a waste as a few "paragraphs" would repeat over and over in an almost compulsive manner. What's interesting is that as I have developed more ego strength, a stronger position and more confidence this compulsiveness has markedly reduced automatically. Of course, imaginal rehearsal of this sort was even a part of the making of this comment and that is justified but it is important that this function has it's proper place in the ecology of one's mind and not become a defense mechanism or a self-serving dynamic. Exploring these things, I also can't help but speculate that CBT's approach to such an issue would be so inept at helping someone as it would require the patient to simply "change their thinking patterns" with complete disregard of the underlying reasons for it emerging in the first place. Thank you again for a great video!
Thanks Petar, your insights and understandiing will be of great benefit to those you help, professionally. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
Oooffff… so, in my life time since I was maybe, 18 I have played out, internally at least 3 fantasies, two sporting and one Sci Fi. I always thought I should write them down but while they do have general themes, the underdog, self sacrifice, over looked genius or skill, and a general narrative, they have no real ending and are horrendously derivative and yet I often pick them up. Obviously never spoken about these bc, well, I’ve always thought about them as weird, childish and mildly embarrassing. To think of them now as a play pit for diverted instinctual pressures and perhaps a diversion that’s preventing me from addressing my general malaise leave me in a quandary.
Contrast these with what I think have been at least 2 maybe 3 spontaneous moving experiences I’ve had during meditation and / or semi meditation while listening deeply to emotive or inspirational music and I think I can see the difference between fantasy and imagination.
How can you lean more into the latter to get to the underlying drives of the former and can you do it on your own?
Hi again NilSatis1878, engage with it, fully. Respect the psyche, and it will reciprocate towards the Ego. We've a follow-up video coming out today, 30th June, which may help as the topic is expanded. Thanks as ever for your support, keep the creativity going. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
Very useful video, I find it a great supplement to the latest video with Prof. Goodwyn. Which probably is my favourite JTLB video.
A lot of what has been said in this video I've found in my personal development journey. For me watching my own fantasies and analysing them has been of tremendous value. Knowing what instinct the fantasy narrative is depicting, and try to put it back into the context of my own life. Sometimes this is easy, and sometimes it is a bit harder, since a very small narrative can hold different instincts at once. Then I had an amazing clue of what to follow up on, I was very confident in this which made me not fall for any distractions by the complex. My rapport with my unconscious just went up very quickly (very noticeable increase in "quality" of hypnosis, interpretation of dreams became more accurate, dreams seemed more significant). Probably because I was going about what my unconscious wanted me to do/work on, and not what I (the ego) wanted to do/work on.
It is very powerful and easy, it set off a chain reaction in changes and insights. Thank you guys for giving me (or us) the tools.
Thanks for sharing your insights, Bram, as ever, they signpost your journey as professional. Kindest Regards, Steve🙏
Thank you 🙏
Thank you, Baljit Hayre, Kindest Regards, Steve🙏
Very interesting discussion, I am wondering about the relation of the hazards of fantasy to 1) the work of an artist 2) the practise of visualising intended goals. In relation to 1) I’m a painter and actively try to channel imagery from the unconscious, in the sense that I don’t know exactly what it means but it feels significant. Sometimes meaning presents later and provides the title. The concern I have is whether I am simply indulging fantasy rather than doing anything productive? Perhaps I am even harming others by encouraging their own attraction to fantasy? I scrape out a living from art, which is actually pretty hard to achieve for most people, but sometimes I’m afraid that I’m being merely an entertainer, or am locked into a childish phase - I have desires to drop it all and become an engineer sometimes, to have a regular job and life, (but this could also be motivated by trying to escape financial insecurity/ social isolation.) The second question I have is 2) about the use of visualisation: I have been attempting visualisations while in a hypnogogic state as a way to concretise what I am aiming for and control negative patterns, and am conscious that this can easily slip into undisciplined mental patterns, which i imagine would fall under what you describe as fantasy, so perhaps I should not be doing this and instead just focus on action? I mentally bring myself back to the intended visualisation when I notice I have drifted off, but still there is the quality of fantasy there at some moments.
Hi Scott Breton, artists are some of the most important people in any culture, which is why art is always represed under tyranny. Creativity, is an instinct, in and of itself. Keep making your contribution, we need it. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
Is active imagination achievable through goal orientation ( there is a focus point for progress/adaptation)?
Secondly,I read a portion of The Distracted Mind: Ancient Brians in a High Tech World by Adam Gazzaley and Larry Rosen.
It mentioned the problems of goal interference and distractions including forging for food (information in modern sense) as primates, and the marginal value theorem.
Multi-tasking seems like a good everyday example of what complexes try to accomplish in the context of imagination.
What I’ve learned from this video is that there is a narrow process how to contact the unconscious yet the expectation of an experience can be an interference.
Does that sound accurate?
Hi Josh Phares, the psyche can be very forgiving, and it and its biological substrate (as Jung himself put it) the genome, will accomodate a bandwidth of 'approaches' by the Ego to the unconscious, However, some, are more efficient, and natural, than others. We're doing a follow-up video, tonight, 30th June. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
I suppose fantasy and internal projection are closely linked? It seems result oriented or objective based from the perspective of the ego and its complexes. Imagination seems to be something spontaneous, free flowing or creative and is detached from a particular outcome (albeit fulfillment of genomic potential). I've noticed in myself a difference. Imagination comes from a place of earnest communication and a willingness to receive while fantasy and internal projection come from a place of wanting something, and wanting it now. That "wanting" prevents true communication between a conscious ego and the unconscious.
I suppose that place of imagination can deliver pretty amazing advancements in society ie. the case of Einstein's Theory of Relativity and how that's changed the way we view space and time. Pretty damn cool.
Hi again Ian, many thanks for your thouyghtful and considered comment. We develop this on, in the next video, where I debate it with Professor Erik Goodwyn. We'll be posting more on this very important topic soon. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
I have been wondering about curiosity and desire.
Hi Jesse Ball, both, fundamentally, are driven by instinct. Pankseppian Instincts have their context for expression via Meta-Instincts, Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
aka -- intp vs infj !!
Hi again Lexicon Artist, its a moot point what 'type' Jung was. He believed himself to be thnking dominant with intuition - and both, being introverted. If we 'MBTI' him, then we may as well use Big 5, as neither reflect his type theory as he created it. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
I get it now. Nofap day 1
Fap, is a 'sandbox' to discharge instinct and affect, until it can be released through relating. Kindest Regards, Steve 🙏
Still going strong, moved on to quitting nicotine but am on a hump
@@locustwalkman1894 nofap is a meme and you fell for it