Sly Cooper: Thoughts On Penelope's Betrayal - Clockwerk's Means To An End?
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- Penelope was first introduced in Sly Cooper 3 Honor Among Thieves. After the gang’s surprising discovery, Penelope joined the team and helped them access the Cooper vault. Not only that, she got into a relationship with Bentley.
Many fans in the series completely disliked the fact that a character who used to be an ally decided to go bad in Sly Cooper 4 Thieves in Time. I honestly liked the idea, but its delivery wasn’t the best. It felt too unexpected and the reason is because it wasn’t clearly explained. How did Penelope suddenly turn her back on the gang?
If Clockwerk returns in Sly Cooper 5, could Penelope be the one to do so? Judging from her personality and words that she used in Sly 4, it makes it seem like she did talk to someone other than Le Paradox. We don’t have much information on Clockwerk’s brain. Arpeggio from sly Cooper 3 mentioned the brain, but after he died, the brain remained a complete mystery.
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Honestly, the idea of Penelope betraying the gang isn't that bad at all. If it weren't for the fact we had to live 8 years between games believing Penelope would never do something like that; then people wouldn't care as much about the plot twist. I really want to see Penelope redeemed or have a bigger role in the series, I really like her as a cute geeky counter part to Bentley! But hey, who knows what's in stored for her in the future? I just don't want to wait another 8 F**KING YEARS to find out!!!
Very good point! This 8 year waiting period made people get used to Penelope being a good person. What if Sly 4 had happened earlier right?
I feel like this twist would’ve worked a lot better if Penelope was simply under the possession of Paradox. Had they done that, that would have given sly and the gang more of an incentive to go after him.
While I was initially shocked at Penelope's reveal as the Black Knight
(which to be fair, was kinda obvious in retrospect.)
After giving it some thought..I'm not as upset about it as most people are.
I mean, yeah. I feel for Bentley. and, playing Blood Bath Bay again gives me mixed feelings now.
But, I view Penelope as being like a kinda parallel to Dr. M.
Dr. M was also a member of 'a' Cooper Gang that betrayed them in the end,
and like Penelope was very tech savy.
And, it's like Dr. M said to Sly: "Time does strange things to a person."
Ahh a nice comparison!
i didn't hate the idea of penelope betraying the team it just felt random like it just kind of came out of nowhere
We only had her as a good person in Sly 3, I think there's more to this character, something Sanzaru will have to deal with.
i love this theory and all but heres one that might make more sense:
what if Penelope was replaced by a doppelganger? it would explain the sudden personality change, all the hurtful words she said about Bentley and why she went as close as to try and kill Sly. because if she was brainwashed she would have instead praised La Paradox instead of saying "he's just a means to an end" like you said and considering all the evidence of black magic, it seems pretty possible for someone to create an evil copy of Penelope so if this WAS the case where's the real Penelope? if its not the case, like you always say "its fun to speculate"
i hope you can find this comment Vivi :)
A doppelbanger? If so, I hope they clear this in Sly 5. Thanks for sharing!
VTNVIVI no problem :)
It makes sense. LeParadox wanting to emotionally break the group
I actually have a theory that I worked with for a story of mine that went with the idea that there are actually 2 Penelopes, but from parallel timelines. In general, I have seen a a couple sci-fi movies that have eluded to the fact that you could access a different timeline using a time machine of some kind. What if somewhere along the way, Penelope went to go get something for Bentley, and was captured by Le Paradox? He might have found out through differing channels in his syndicate that Bentley was building a time machine, and could have been working on one himself, but was missing some key components/mathematical equations to make it his own time machine work properly.
Since Penelope was working with Bentley, he might have seen this as an opportunity to get a fresh perspective on the design, and made Penelope steal a copy of the blue prints. Once Paradox's machine was complete, he might have been making a test run, and ended up in a parallel timeline instead of the past. This timeline's Penelope and Bentley could have split off from sly at some point, and did what Penelope was talking about making a ton of money from Sly 4: make billions. The second Penelope could have been trying to get the Bentley WE know to become the Bentley SHE knows.
Interesting!
My theory about Penelope is thoroughly outlined in "Did Clockwerk have a secret Ally" but I will reiterated here briefly. I believe you're on the right track. I have a feeling that his brain has been kept alive by Penelope (see my comment on the aforementioned video) but that none of it was happenstance, or luck. it was all a plan orchestrated by a genius intellect that has survived for centuries. I have a feeling that when the group return to the present (Epilogue of Sly 5) they will find the true threat staring them in the face. Clockwerk reborn, Penelope at his right hand, Neyla on his left, and a collection of other criminals that could not be redeemed at his back.
Then we will get the final chapter of a six part series: Sly Cooper 6 War between Thieves - It will be Sly Cooper, his friends and true allies from all the games coming together to face off against their final threat, and nobody is safe. I imagine that the game will end with Sly and his friends victorious, but like with Sly Cooper 2, it will be a bittersweet victory. Allies and enemies will be injured or dead with our main protagonist looking on at the utter devastation and wondering if it was all worth the cost.
The epilogue would be them talking to family, loved ones, burying the dead, before the scene would turn into a page (similar to Eternal Darkness) with a hand closing the Thievius Raccoonus. Sly's voice talking to his little girl saying "That is the legacy of your family, and though we now work with INTERPOL to help take down criminals, remember that tomorrow you will inherit this book and this legacy." at which point there's a knock at the door, and Carmelita pulls her shock pistol... worried that history is about to repeat itself... only to have Murray and Bentley enter the house with cake, and decorations wishing their daughter a happy birthday.
Thank you again for this great read!
Thank you for taking the time and effort with this series. As a fan, I have greatly enjoyed your insights and opinions 😀
Aww thank you so much!
I think that the twist with penelope was ok for the series, even though I liked penelope as a member. Without any evidence, I think that penelope is working for clockwerk. She is good at hiding as vivi said and the series showed that a lot of times before
Thank you for sharing!
you know what sly is illuminati
It all makes sense now.
Who knows, maybe Penelope found out the dark truth in the future since you know, she time traveled... what if she time traveled somewhere before she time traveled into the mid evil age, Penelope used Le Paradox to get the chance to "borrow" some of their advance technology to time travel and so, Penelope used it as an advantage and maybe for some reason decided to go to the future since she was interested in most technology and what better chance is to find out in the future, but then later realized the dark truth to the cooper gang in the near future... something may have happened badly and the cooper gang could've been villains and took over the world. Time travel has many paths, Penelope may went into the bad future and thought it was actually the real path into the future and so she decided to change the past to insure a better future of what's left of. After what she had seen, she was suprised that the cooper gang was involved into the time travelling plot hole so what better way to do it is to make machines to eliminate the gang while at the same time, killing one of the ancestors in the mid evil age a.k.a sir galleth cooper. Penelope could perhaps been convincing Bentley to join her and create a better future without any bad circumstances in sly 4 since Penelope can trust Bentley into making the right decision and is probably a capable person to be helpful, could all the things Penelope had said means a way to let Bentley join on her side but once Bentley joins her side then she would convince the truth?! Penelope is still aware of any changes to time travel that she doesn't want to make any mistakes and maybe that's why she was saying the stuff in sly 4 and Bentley in the future is a bad guy, which could have shown Penelope breaking up with Bentley in the first place, thanks time travel, ya ruined the story plot for sly cooper and has made the fan base out of control -_- lol.
With how there were owl patrolling enemies in the “Of Mice and Mechs” episode existed and that there were background owls just flying around (a few with a mouse in their claws), I think that’s the game company’s way of hinting:
Clockwerk was mortal and possibly old or dying in the time period Penelope was in, and after the Cooper gang ruined her plan (causing Le Paradox to leave her trapped in time), “had no other option” than to help Clockwerk with the mech replacements of his living parts.
Thus helping the one hell-bent enemy that had the tenacity and newfound lifespan to eliminate Cooper permanently. I doubt the gang ever brought up the whole “we beat Clockwerk years back” aka the first game, so she wouldn’t have been aware she ends up failing in that endeavour.
I’m sure she didn’t do the mech replacements on herself since she’d need someone else with the knowledge on how to accomplish that (one can’t operate on themselves).
🧐
Actually, Dr. M did try to use counterfeit canes to open the vault. You can see them on the floor outside of the vault. I doubt it's magic, but the canes do have some sort of unique property to them.
Hmm... Never noticed that. My life has been a lie.
I personally really liked the idea. It was unique and had potential for great storytelling. And the bossfight was very enjoyable. In fact, out of all the boss fights in Sly 4, Penelope/The Black Knight is probably my favorite one. But the execution is what really bothers me. It wasn't told very well, and it was SO poorly paced, having to wait until 4 episodes later to finally get an answer.....that doesn't even make any sense. What probably bothers me most about Penelope's transition from a hero to a villain, is her feelings towards Sly. Now I know, she could've easily been faking them the entire time, but tell me, how do we go from, "My hero!" To her believing that Sly was stealing Bentley's potential from him? Personally, that just makes no sense to me!
When it comes to writing, making sense is important! I feel ya!
VTNVIVI see, I feel like if they were to make a new Sly Cooper game, one of the new features I think they should add in is the ability to play as the villains. It would not only be unique, but it would also serve as a great way of learning more about the story of that specific episode. I feel as though, if that was the case for Of Mice and Mechs, it not only would've worked MUCH better in my opinion, but also, it would've served as a great way for us to understand the true character of Penelope, and what it really was that she was trying to do. But unfortunately, while the idea was interesting, the pacing, confusion, and flat out disappointment I felt during the end of that episode really shows me that this part of the story didn't have too much thinking put into it during development, in my opinion, anyway.
Great video!
Thanks!
Vtnvivi The only thing I can think of right now is like you said the 8 year gap between sly 3 and sly Cooper thieves in time, who knows what honestly happened in those 8 years that made Penelope decide to betray the Cooper gang. I also agree with the fact that the route they went with Penelope being in anti hero in sly 4 could have been fleshed out more creatively, perhaps, Also another factor that may or may not have contributed to he betrayal is she grew fed up/tried of sly faking his amnesia for eight years also to be with carmalita. and she felt resentful of the fact that in her mind sly may never return back to the gang after that. But this is my best guess/opinion right now.
Nice analysis!
Cool vid Vivi!
Thanks :D
If you look closely on certain maps in Thieves in Time, you can see Clockwerk perched above everything. I can see Sly being in trapped in Ancient Egypt as a ways to see Clockwerk's "true" origin, while the rest of the team plus Carmelita tries to get him back to the present.
Yes those easter eggs. I could imagine Sly finding Clockwerk before he transformed. He has to be careful, Bentley will find him on time and warn him.
Its not just you I like the whole Penelope's betrayal like I was sad but I do love plot twists so I think the story really needed that.
Flareon girl i like it too
Flareon girl Yup 😃
Flareon girl Nah it just don't really make no since. If they make it serious and more reasons why she did that. It will be awesome! But want to make weapons and money.... That sound like every bad guys reason.
Alright!
CCG agrees :D
so is the sly cooper movie and sly 5 coming out? pls answer i want to know
The Sly movie is still at early stages of development. Sly 5 still remains a mystery.
clockwork in sly copper is like Megatron in transformer's, no matter how many times and ways you kill him, he has to come back because is villains like clockwork and many others that make a good story
I know right!
everyone always says that hero's always win, hero's this, hero's that but what about the villains? what made clockwork hate the copper clan? what did the copper clan do to clockwork? is the copper clan the reason why clockwork went mad?
we know that the coppers are thieves but they did something to clockwork that made him want revenge
we also know that clockwork supposedly had a loved one (that's what I got from his final moments on the first game) what if a copper killed someone special for clockwork, maybe some rough copper ancestor that became a murder that we don't know about or something else, I always had that thought in my head
We need answers I agree with you 100%
you're probably one of the few since everyone else just cares about the good guys, I hope in the movie they give us some background on clockwork and why he became evil
Poor Bentley. In the serie of games he is the one who suffered the most. He doesn't deserves such suffering. This betrayal was a heavy blow on his shell. I don't think Penelope is a bad person. She will regret the decision she made in a time of rage and jealous and will seek for redemption. I think she will be the one who finds Sly in the past and with this she will earn the gang's trust. I don't think she will join forces with Clockwerk but she will be conected somehow. Looks like everyone in the Sly's world knows about the danger of Clockwerk after the Paris final battle from Sly 2. She will help then fight against this evil and Bentley will forgive her because he still loving her. All this betrayal stuff is forced to me. After that episode on Blood Bath Bay she would never hurt Bentley's feelings. Fix this will be hard and Sanzaru should think two times before doing forced plot twists. When Penelope returns as ally Bentley must be the one who refuses her appologies. She will need to proof that she is trustable. Doing all this in tue story will be challange for Sanzaru. Penelope's motives for betrayal seens foolishness.
She will regret it I'm sure! You are right, Bentley has been through some stuff. That could be one scenario where Penelope finds Sly. But that look on her face when she escaped prison though. This will indeed be a challenge for Sanzaru, I DO NOT want an easy cheesy excuse.
To be honest, I do agree with that Penelope being revealed as the black knight was surprising and that perhaps the developers could've done that in a better way, though here's my thought. After the events of Sly 3, Bentley and Penelope become very close to where most likely Bentley shares all of his adventures with Sly and Murray over the years. Over time, if taken literally, Penelope begins to believe that Bentley wasn't living up to his potential from how she stated "you work for a thief" oppose to being an equal similar to how Dr. M felt, seeing how Sly would take credit for their heists. Then at some point, Penelope gets a message from Le Paradox who wanted her to help him in getting rid of Sly cooper & his family legacy, Penelope being on the fence is then swayed with the idea of Bentley being far more than "a puppet to a thief" and agrees to help him.
Overall, Penelope's intentions were for Bentley to no longer be hindered by being a "puppet" for Sly since she thought he wasn't living up to his potential perhaps from believing that he was merely a sidekick for Sly. Penelope didn't hate Sly but merely felt Bentley wasn't using his talents to the best of his abilities by being an associate to Sly, if you take it literal on the amount of time that passed within the game of Sly 3 and Sly 4 it does make sense. Penelope had good intentions but were misguided and wrong to a degree, seeing how Sly would take credit for their heists & didn't believe Bentley was viewed as an equal.
Great video
Thanks :D
Man, people must have really liked Penelope if nearly *all* of them are this upset about her betrayal. And I won't lie, even I thought the betrayal came completely out of left field, until TV Tropes reminded me that a.) She used to run a flying competition scam that regularly got people killed with no remorse. And b.) She only agreed to help Sly if he could beat her Black Baron persona, not out of gratitude. So she technically never truly underwent a proper Heel Face Turn like like Panda King and Dimitri did to begin with. So yeah, realistically speaking, expecting a person like that to remain a loyal friend for life is honestly (Hey! TV Tropes' words, NOT mine!) a fool's errand. Seriously, I liked Penelope too, but when stop and think about it, TV Tropes was right.
Tropes certainly makes valid points!
I really like your videos and theroys I would make a game out of all your sly theroys
Aww I appreciate that!
I have a theory on Penelope’s betrayal. We learn in Thieves in Time that one of the clockwerk eyes survive the destruction of the hate chip what if there was still a piece of clockwerk alive in it? and Penelope just so happen to be the one that found it and when she picked it up in activate it and implanted his memory and personality onto her and he’s been slowly taking control ever since. I know it sounds crazy but anything is possible right?
Honestly I have mix feelings about Penelope's betrayal. I would've rather not have Penelope betray the Cooper Gang, but after thinking over your reasons that could work out. I just wished that the game led up to her betrayal differently.
That's what I mean, it's a good twist, but we didn't have enough background info to justify it.
Ok, a Game Theory who talks about my favourite videogames series?
I've fucking discovered heaven.
You're a fan of Sly as well!! Awesome :D
Can somebody help me with a technical issue in sly 4. When I start the game there is no sound. I tried to search a solution but I didn't find one. PLEASE HELP ME.
First time I hear this :O Does your PS3 have sound output? Is your disk scratched?
There is nothing wrong with the ps3 sound system because other games are fine :/ .
There is only one little scratch and it's really weird because the last time I played was about a year ago and everything was OK .
I have a Sly Cooper theory: What if Penelope was Clockwerk's friend/sidekick then she finds out that he got destroyed by the Cooper gang. Then she wants revenge. She pretends to be a friend in Sly 3,then steals Bentley's time machine plans and becomes allies with Le Paradox. Since they both have the same interest of stopping the Cooper Clan. And maybe that's why she didn't act like " Le Paradox knows all" type of thing.
I always wondered if she was acting this whole time.
A couple of questions I always wanted to ask you.
1.how do your rank the sly cooper games from best to worst?
2.how do you rank the ratchet and clank games from best to worst?(main games, not spinoffs)
3.how do you rank the jak and daxter games from best to worst?
1. 4, 2, 3,1
2. ACiT, UYA, GC, Tools, Deadlocked, Ratchet & Clank. We don't really have spin offs I'd say.
3. Jak 2, Jak 3... Jak 1 just feels so different it's my favourite. Never played Lost Frontier.
Bad News VTNVIVI, look at what I found:
If players unlock the game's secret ending, a clip is shown that hints at a potential future installment in the series, but on November 14, 2014, Sanzaru Games released a statement that they are not developing a future game.
I've gone over that statement multiple times :P These days, Sanzaru is showing interest. In short, the team keeps saying to tweet at Shuhei Yoshida. Other than that, Sanzaru is working on a secret project right now.
If that were the case, then they may have to have some interaction between Penelope and Arpeggio. He was the one that had the Clockwork brain in Sly . Maybe they knew each other? They're both pretty intelligent in machines.
Who knows!
Finding Clockwerk's Brain, huh? I seem to remember a moment in the Sly Branch of the "Infinite Loops" fanfic project that being in the presence of the Hate Chip under the wrong circumstances could result in a rather deep perversion of a person's psyche... perhaps that started to happen with Penelope?
Also, I'm not sure a prequel would work... Remember, many of the moves that we take for granted in the later games were LEARNED in the original game. Thus, anything BEFORE that point in the timeline would have Sly not know how to do things like Ninja Spire Jump or Rail Slide, thus severely limiting what could be done from a gameplay perspective.
damn these are some awesome ideas
:D
vtnvivi this plot twist was one i wasn't expecting but also a little interesting, i used little context clues to infer Penelope was the the black knight.Eg: she was the black baron ,and considering that the black knight t suit was somewhat advance it only seem logical to me that she was evil.Also both her black Baron,and black knight persona were a coincident,but that is still my opinion!.
To be honest after recently beating the series recently I'm interested in something: ClockWerk got 'lava'd' to death, ClockLa exploded, La Paradox got sent to jail... What happened to Dr. M? He was such an interesting villain (as well as a nice change of pace after 2 robot owls) I want to see him come back. I don't even think it was explained what happened to him after Sly 3. I'm curious as to what he could be up to.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's actually alive.
Exactly. He's smart enough to escape the collapse before being closed in.
I actually saw it comming the second you meet the night the first time mostly becuase of the high pitched voice for such a large charecter but im sure im not the only one but i actually enjoyed that little twist as much as i liked Bentley and Penelopes relationship
Glad someone agrees!
After Bentley, Murray and Carmelita rescue Sly from Ancient Egypt and go back to the present I'll bet when Penelope escapes prison and shows her face to Sly, Bentley, Murray and Carmelita I'll bet Carmelita would simply punch Penelope in the face.
If there was a part where Carmelita punches Penelope in the face for breaking Bentley's heart and selling Sly out that would be totally satisfying.
i like the idé but i think its was a way to make the games Possible to like fit in the game so Lapadox not just had a time machine out of nowhere so i like the idé but i think it was most to fit in the game for Lapadox but great video btw
The plot twist caught me off guard the first time I played the game
I liked it, but needed more background.
I honestly did not mind the whole thing because I never truly believed anyone who just joins for a gig then stays with one of the members after the gang disbands from said gig will truly stay good. Think about it, for 2 games we were told the Cooper line and any of their gangs were honorable thieves and only stole from criminals. In Sly 3 we got Murray's teacher who is a Guru so nothing to really worry about there, Panda King learned his lesson from Sly 1 and more so watches over his daughter but would still be cool to see him come back as a fight in another game, Dmitri....well what can I say about him honestly as we see him in Sly 4. All 3 of them had no real need to follow the Cooper code, but did as part of the gig and moved on afterwards. Penelope stayed with Bentley cause she loved him, as we gathered from the last parts of Sly 3, and as we gathered in Sly 4 she says she did it all to help Bentley and get the Honorable Thieve code from Sly out of his head and use his knowledge for personal gain and profit.
If that is to be the truth in all then we could see this as a chance for a kind of Batman and Catwoman deal between the two of them which I would not mind, I mean we already got the criminal and cop one going on between Sly and Carmelita, and could lead to maybe a future job where Bentley gets more development in one or more of the games or at least tests of their skills. The whole thing might have been rushed and/or the not intended person to be the villain, but it can still lead to some interesting plot lines in future games.
Sorry if this was really long, but I got started and kinda kept going since I generally see negativity towards this plot twist and wanted to throw my hat in on this positive video.
I was a fan of this twist, it just needs more background. Thanks for sharing!
Love the point you made. I never realized it but, yeah, if you fail the fight with her as The Black Baron, she WILL kill you
See??? Although her 180 lacks backstory in Sly 4, Penelope does have traitorous nature.
The betrayal was a good idea, just poorly portrayed. Oh well waiting for sly 5 still, I really need closure.
I love your videos
Aww thanks :D
VTNVIVI I love you 😂
VTNVIVI I heard the black knight was orginally suppose to be a mole.
Nathaniel Foga that is true
Yes :)
What if clockwork is penelope? We know that he hates the Coopers but we don't know why. What we do know is that penelope hates sly because he was the main reason why Penelope betrayed bentley. In the end of sly 4, bentley recieves mysterious post cards from penelope, In one of them which is showing a lab and a time machine. Penelope could use this to find sly one way or another so she could kill him, since she hates him. She travels to plenty of time lines without finding him, as a result she gets stuck in time so she builds clockwerk and uses it to kill every cooper in history since she's stuck. So clockwerk is penelope stuck in time all along waiting for sly.
crazy theory
Knowing Penelope, sure she has a grudge against Sly, but to go to such lengths to give up your body, I don't think she'd do that. By the way, that's not really a lab, it's from the ship from the Sly 4 special if I'm not mistaken.
the clockwerk idea is neat
Glad you think so :D
Penelope's super-objective, in Sly 4, is to liberate Bentley and herself from Sly's influence.
The obstacle is Sly Cooper causing Bentley's participation and obsession with the Cooper gang.
Her super-tactic to accomplish her objective is to gain resources and power from a powerful source so that she can eliminate Sly and persuade Bentley to join her with her new source of wealth and materials.
There. That's a very simple overlook at Penelope's role in Sly 4. Let's look deeper.
At the end of Sly 3, Bentley and Penelope have gained a mutual affection for one another. They have also gained a large amount of money thanks to Sly. With the disappearance of Sly, everyone has moved on with their lives. Murray goes into racing and Sly into his relationship with Carmelita. Everyone moves on with life, except for Bentley. Bentley and Penelope construct a new safe for the Cooper legacy, he invests in building a time machine to look into the future of the gang, and he uses whatever spare time he has to study the Thievius Raccoonus. From Penelope's perspective, she is still being used for Cooper gang even though Sly is NOT THERE! Sly's influence on Bentley is deep. So deep that he is taking him away from her without even trying. All the money that they got from the old Cooper vault is just sitting there in the new one that Bentley and her built. Everything needed to live a happy life with your loved one is there for them, yet Bentley is still honoring the thief code.
It's very clear that she feels strongly for Bentley. At the very least, she sees how useful his brilliance is. Over the years spent building a time machine, Penelope obviously grew tired of spending time doing something for Sly rather than something bigger. Enough was enough. What to do? She can't do anything with the time machine in development. Bentley is so close to it and would see very quickly that she had other plans for it. She most likely doesn't have the time or resources to build herself one. By the time she would get her own done, Bentley would have finished his and dragged her into another Cooper adventure. In their spare time, while Bentley studied the Thievius Raccoonus, she sought out a source of materials and money that she may take advantage of and use to her desire. This area may vary depending on where the time machine fits in, but La Paradox was found and he may have hired her for her connection to a time machine that could achieve a very large life goal of his, or Penelope may have reached out to him in hopes of getting the machine built for her uses. Either way, a deal is struck and he agrees to supply her with his wealth in exchange for a time machine, a Cooper cane, and a dead Cooper legacy. The last one being something Penelope would be overjoyed to do. She also states that he is a means to and end in regards to the resources she plans to take from him.
In Sly 4, Penelope tries to communicate with Bentley and get him to stop following orders from Sly. With her money and power, they could have the life that she didn't get with him and make a difference for something bigger than just a thieving raccoon. Bentley stands strong to his beliefs and Penelope becomes enraged by his choice and chooses to cut her ties with him.
Now, I'm not too sure what you may say, but this is textually backed up. The info here is present in the Sly story. Dots had to be connected of course, but they are not exaggerations due to story based evidence. Penelope was not derailed at all. There have been a lengthy amount events between the stories we are aware of. She has an enormous amount of sub-text with her character now. Much deeper and richer than her former self. It's easy to see a gap in a story as large as the gap from Sly 3 to 4 and be caught off guard by her development, but it is still development grounded in the events of the Sly universe.
In defense of the choice to make Penelope a villian, at one point Bentley straight-up says to her that La Paradox is making a puppet out of her. She gives strong body language of not caring about that. That is a wonderful source of questions and mystery. What is she thinking? This isn't textually based, but she may have had a bigger plan overall to overthrow La Paradox in the end. She may be thinking of something much bigger. The credits show she's out of prison and will probably be strong character in what will mostly likely be Sly 5.
Penelope's behavior, going off her history as the ''Black Baron'', didn't really surprise me....However, I still wish Sly 4 had better delivery. Yes if we try to connect the dots, we could make sense of it, but that's all there is to it. As you mentioned, ''Penelope obviously grew tired of spending time doing something for Sly'', a mere little flashback to that could've added much more substance. And yeah, she might have other plans seeing as how she escaped her cell, hoping it gets handled better. Thanks for diving deep by the way, fun read :)
What if they made it to where Clockwerks robotic body was just being controlled by Penelope the whole time. Then when it failed she had to start to get physically and personally involved
Question is, what would push Penelope to reach such a point :O
@@VtnVivi they could add in a story with Sly’s parents accidentally causing Penelope’s parents to get locked up if they could incorporate her family legacy also as a thieving clan
I like your new profile picture.
Glad you think so!
Let's face it. The real reason Penelope betrayed the Cooper Gang, was because of her own intellect. There's no case of brainwashing, clone or duplicates, or even someone who tricked her. She just viewed Sly as the same way Dr M viewed Sly's father.
The cutscene when the Black Knight's identity was revealed very much shows that she believes that she and Bently are better than everyone because of how smart they are.
I think that's a very logical argument.
what about that girl who was final boss in sly 2 is she still in clockwork
Zomic The Hybird no they destroyed her hate chip
What Mean Steam Gaming said.
She couldn’t talk to clockwork because either a his soul still alive or be that’s impossible because they destroyed the hate chip in sly two
0:35 - And unfortunately I count among the group that didn't like it. :( Also where's this soundtrack from? I can't recognize it.
1:06 - I don't want to say your wrong to like it but still.
1:55 - Can you recognize those words? ;)
2:11 - It actually started with Sly but over time she realize that he was not the ... brains of the gang. :/ That didn't come out as I would've expected.
2:43 - Yeah but back then she wanted out after a few too many victories.
3:04 - And she also had a shy personality from the start up to facing Lefwee but still a little shy afterwards.
3:25 - I remember that.
3:53 - :(
4:03 - They obviously wanted to surprise us fans but they could've made a better motivation for her like say she was blackmailed to betray the gang or something like that.
4:20 - I'm certain she wasn't in it for the money back then.
4:26 - But don't pilots have parachutes?
4:37 - By doing what they do the best?
4:56 - That one actually does make sense, she built the security alongside Bentley so technically speaking she should be able to get away with it.
5:25 - The Cooper Vault was going down at that time so perhaps that would explain it?
5:37 - You mean Sooper Cooper's videos? ;)
6:08 - That's where blackmail can come in! She must've intended to get back at Le Paradox in order to avoid going against the gang.Either him or it was Clockwerk or anyone else.
6:43 - It's most likely possible that she saw sense as to why Dr. M tried to steal from the Cooper Vault and so she wanted to save Bentley in her own way, she most likely saw Bentley as Dr. M when he couldn't.
7:36 - Wait so Clockwerk only knew where the vault was but not the book whilst Dr. M knew where the book was but not the vault? That ... wouldn't be out of the question.
8:20 - Exactly! :D
8:32 - All of which are from the first game when we battle him. ;)
8:40 - Not just them but imagine the entire criminal underworld fearing him. So much that they'd be willing to work for him in exchange that they live! :D
9:00 - I agree.
9:30 - I already gave my idea of the Gameplay on that video SimplySlyUK made yesterday so your more then welcome to see that comment there. ;)
9:43 - It was already story driven in the first 3 games but I get what you mean, more explanation right? Got it!
10:07 - I already stated that it wasn't good to me but if they do bring her back with a reason for it that makes her a good person then I might change my mind. ;)
10:11- And as always, we are all happy to watch. :)
The soundtrack in Sly 3 main in slow motion, adds a cool dramatic effect. Blackmail sounds more likely to me than brainwash. You have a point there, parachutes why didn't I think of that :P Sooper Cooper did talk about brainwash yes! I believe Cloickwerk can easily ''hire'' old bad guys, perhaps break them out of jail even. The Sly series followed the same formula since Sly 1, go here and there and face the bad guy in each episode. Sly 5 or the future could make it a bit different by simply focusing on one major villain, instead of having one bad guy for each episode.
Impressive soundtrack. 👍
Clockwerk can break the old villains out of prison yes, maybe they themselves begged him to in exchange for their services.
Nothing wrong with how the Gameplay worked since the 2nd game though they can change things up a bit. Look at the Crash Bandicoot series; we had Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath Of Cortex that faced a lot of criticism over its lack of innovation and a few years later we get Crash Twinsanity which changed things up for the better. 😃
please do a video of what you think of this so doctor m actually survives and they bring back clockwerk and Penelope teams up with clockwerk and doctor M
I wouldn't be surprised if M survived actually :)
hey vtnvivi there is a game that is similar to sly cooper except you are playing as "two freelance police" from telltale named sam and max.
Oh!
they should forces on Clockwerk's I'm not sure I said or spell right.
I like the theory but the only issue I have is the fight on the wing. I doubt Penelope could just push him off so easily lol
She might end up in the same time as sly trying to take out the Cooper ancestry... Clockwork exist so sly can meet the gang go through the games she goes back and becomes clockwork slowly and then start the series over
I just can't imagine her willing to go through such a complicated road. Does she hate Sly that much really? Wanting to erase his family?
Maybe Penelope was "good" only because of her love for Sly (and then Bentley). But when the love decrease with the time, her "bad" side took the lead of her. She just took the first opportunity she get to be evil again. Maybe she wasn't happy with Bentley anymore
If so, we need more explanation in the next game.
I hope they don't just ... forget about this plot and actually give us some explainations !
If another game comes out and the developers don't cave in to fan bitching we might.
Also, the fact that she didn't mind about lying about his identity and cheating to win as the Black Baron prove that she has never been an example of morality
Personally, Penelope having some involvement in how Clockwerk himself came to be the metallic reaper is very interesting. She could do it, especially with le paradox's help before it went down the crapper, and if she REALLY resented Sly, it would be a motive. The third game sadly didn't give us enough time to actually know who she is, and the fourth one decided to try and show us their interpretation, albeit poorly. She's someone who doesn't seem quite right in the head, if she's willing to try and kill her former friend for holding her and her lover back and then turning on Bentley when he tried reasoning with her. So her problems that she can't deal with on her own would be pinned on Sly as well, giving her more justification to help Clockwerk. Some things still need to be thought out, but I'm tired.
Yes I'd like something like the Ratchet and Clank: Future Series or the The Legend of Spyro Series.
wonder what kind of villain will be in sly 5
They could introduce a major villain at the end maybe ;) I will talk about these things eventually.
I just thought for a vile. What if Penelope betrayed them on purpose? What if she didn't betray them on their own will. What if there is more about? I mean think about it: the messages from Bryner Noggin same mentioned by Penelope's robot in Medieval England, Clockwerk's shows up even in Ice Age, the postcards, Sly ended up in Ancient Egypt where his (technically) legacy began. That aren't coincidents. You said yourself, that Penelope is connected with Clockwerk. In game said "Make things the way they should be" or whatever. Maybe she knew something but she was watched and the only way to knew more it was gain a trust and the only way was betrayed the Cooper Gang. After all she master of disguises and masks. I know it sounds crazy, but there is possibility. After all this story or series is full of plot twists. Maybe you should make a video about. What do you say?😎
If she were Clockwerk's loyal apprentice this while time, mind blown :O Building a ''relationship'' with Bentley as a way of gaining intel. Clockwerk has seen many things and perhaps calculated all of Sly's moves, that includes the gang contacting Penelope in 3.
The idea MIGHT have worked if Sanzaru had developed it properly. But, instead, it comes across as if the folks at Sanzaru just didn't know what to do with her and said "F**k it! Let's turn Penelope into a rehash of Neyla. Sly fans liked the Neyla twist, right?".
Selling this twist would be hard even for GOOD writers. But because the people at Sanzaru are hacks, they thought it was a good idea to taint the third game by changing Penelope's character motivation to "psycho, gold digging whore". And I really hope that, if Sly 5 gets made, they don't tarnish the first game by diminishing Clockwerk and making Penelope the reason he exists. Clockwerk would lose all his menace if it was revealed that he only got to where he was because Bentley stuck his dick in crazy.
Thanks for sharing! What I wish happens is this, Clockwerk was turned robotic thanks to someone, not Penelope. That someone could be the next major villain in the series.
I am sure a sizeable portion of the plot twist haters hated it simple because BentleyxPenelope was their precious ship.
And... Sly Cooper had been plot-driven since game 2. Any more plot and it'a interactive movie territory. I WANT MY GAMEPLAY TO STAY!
The Sly series has always been about episodes and dealing with bad guys in each and everyone of them. I think something a little like focusing on one major villain would be cool. It's an interesting topic to go over.
But is that good for a videogame? Remember, you have to play the game, and it needs to be consistent in its type, and challenginh throughout.
Her excuse was halfly bad for my taste. The bad half was that she wanted to make weapons for profit. Really? Just weapons? She and Bentley could have made more than just weapons. However, her reason in the part of Bentley not reaching his true potential is reasonable. Bentley just keeps working for / with Sly and not doing anything else even that he could do who knows what. Also, their relationship is build around the gang. They both work for it and lived around it. They didn't have almost anything else in common than just being smart and working in the gang. Bentley was too focused on working on stuff and ignored Penelope which lead her to think about the situation, becoming to the conclusion that she needs to get rid off Sly so that she can have Bentley's full attention and that they can do something else than just work on gang's stuff.
About that, Bentley had small doubts in Sly 3, Murray helped and Bentley realised they're friends ever since childhood. Yeah her reasoning sounded off, as if she was hiding the truth. She could be hiding a dark secret.
other cool sly Cooper theory ☺
Yay
I kind of saw the betrayal coming. I've always disliked her as a character. By this I mean I never trusted her in sly 3. Then she's magically missing in sly 4? I knew there was something fishy when there was another masked villain. She is a good character in so far as I have consistently not trusted her and she's irritated me. I mean in sly three I distinctly remember yelling at the screen because she manipulates every situation she's in to her advantage.
Thanks for sharing :)
you dont even have to do clockwerk focus'd games, just make comics with events outside the games, pretty much everyone is doing that
More comics would be sweet :)
I honestly was shocked and like nooo pls no but u know nice plot twist. But a bit to obviously that it was her I mean she is the only one as far as I remember that tried to hide her self behind som fake carekter whit black in her name
I think it was interesting because she could have steal Money from paradox
Glad others agree with the twist!
It could also be hinted that she is the reincarnation of Neyla.
I doubt...
Rumor also has it that Penelope is the longtime apprentice of Clockwerk.
YES BOIIII SLY
Yaa boiiiii
did any one nodes that all of her diskises have black in them may be it will be talked in sly5
Black is her favorite color?
If you want my opinion I say Penelope was a spy the whole time. A triple agent to be precise.
Michael Noble Hmmmm.... That be good ideas and both sides will be happy.
See that could better explain her doing.
Penelope not only was the BLACK Baron, but also the BLACK Knight. Does anyone else think that this may be more than a coincidence? If so what could this hint at about penelope?
Favorite color is black.
it was mass up what they did to Bentley that was his 1st Gf ever hope sly 5 right around the corner
Sly 5 where you at :(
Lol man I beat all of sly games I want more lol
I think the reason why people dosent like the Penelope betrayed the gang plot is because theirs no build up no hits or sighs no foreshadowing she was gonna betrayed them, to me I wasn't too upset that she a twist villain because she only show up in the third game and become the villain in the 4th game am like okay she a villain, and I think her reasons hating on sly it doesn't make any sense , she doesn't have good reasons to hate on sly I mean everybody go on their own thing in the 4th game in their lives I think she not brainwash either, I do believe one of the villains told her some bs that sly likes to use people to get what he wants and let it rewind on her head, I can get maybe she jealous of sly s Bentley bro to bro relationship and she just the third wheel they could be calling each from time to time be like hey what's up man , she just listening them talk all day but if this is the case is still a silly reason to hate on sly , hating sly himself is one thing but hating all the Cooper clan ! What?! I can see the main villains hating on all the Coopers clan! but why Penelope hates his clan! I mean I would just fine of her hating only on sly but his whole clan ? What beef she has for the Cooper clan? All the villains have beef with his family but why Penelope hates his clan ? Hopefully that got better plans for her in the 5th game.
Basically this is the issue with Sly 4. I liked the twist, but it just needed more background.
@@VtnVivi sorry I made a long comment am a deep thinker
a sly cooper prequel not a band idea
I know right!
noice!
Remember Penelope escaped at the end of Sly 4
She did!
I sure didn't like her betrayal.
A prequel, huh? There's a good idea. :)
I really should see what those Ratchet & Clank games are like because I still don't know anything about the series.
A prequel yassss!!!!! You should get into the R&C series, if you have a PS3, pick up the remaster of the first 3 games on PS2.
I never owned anything from PlayStation, and I should have. I don't even play games anymore. I only watch them on CZcams instead.
I also forgot to mention that I still don't want Sanzaru to do Sly 5. :(
I know the game came out years ago, but still a spoiler in the title just isn't cool
What if Clockwerk was friend's with sly father?
Unlikely given how long Clockwerk's been attacking the Coopers.
Unlikely, considering what he's done for 100s of years. As for Slytunkhamen, that is a different story :)
the reason i hate this plot twist is the boss
What if Penlope needs money to help her mother?
I mean trying to kill Sly and then realize she need to help her mother, well that'd be unusual wouldn't it?
No, I mean what if she needed the money way before she became the black baron? She later realized that she and Bentley could make money together, but for some reason kept it to herself.
The betrayal shocked me and it was unexpectedly fun. Personally, I really don't enjoy Penelope as a character.
We only had her in Sly 3, so in my opinion we still don't know her that well.
I didn't like that they turned Penelope evil :(
I liked it, but it needed more background.
I feel sorry for penelore
She put that on herself.
Maibye she talked whit Dr.M?
If he's alive maybe.
Pretty sure he was killed by falling rocks. He was unwilling to leave the vault when it was collapsing.
I just view her betrayal as history repeating itself. Dr.M left the gang Sly's father had because he wasn't satisfied, he believed he was just a sidekick.
Her reason for betraying is pretty believable, She wanted Bentley to work with her making weapons. But she wanted to kill Sly and the others first. To have Bentley all to herself, sort of like a yandere.
Is Penelope Redeemable?
Yes. Look at how they "forgave'' Panda.
Worst twist ever in any videogame.
Sly 5 (TBA)
Who knows.
About that.
Yes @@TheUltrasora?
@@JeffreyBarkdull you edited your op
Yep @@TheUltrasora
I say if Clockwerk returns he will kill Penelope.
Or Panda.
Or both
Sorry I just feel they wanted something for shock and nothing else.
In simple words yes.
I still think she is clockwork
I'd lean more towards her simply knowing Clockwerk instead. I don't think Penelope would waste her time turning into a bird and going back through time.
She went back and tried with Le paradox and became the black knight
she was very mean
Indeed.
I'm sorry, but Penelope's betrayal was the stupidest thing that's ever happened to this entire franchise. Such a big mistake. It was completely out of character, Penelope from Sly 3 would never act like that.
I was waiting for this comment.
Your theories are SO repetitive. Why do you think everything in Sly Cooper has to do with Clockwork!?