15th Century fighting demonstration
Vložit
- čas přidán 18. 06. 2011
- 15th Century fighting demonstration by CdO.
Most footage was taken while fooling around at our event at Dever Castle, but we liked it enough to make this video.
--
10-Mar-2012:
Because of the overwhelming reaction to this video I'd like to stress this was just a relaxed training session we filmed while trying and discussing techniques with each other.
This accounts for the lack of intent and speed in some of the shots. :)
Music:
Firesong by Kevin MacLeod, incompetech.com
A Challenge of Honour, Only Stones Remain (Instrumental) - Sport
As has been mentioned by others, the human body is much the same all over the world, so techniques for using the human body to hurt or kill other human bodies are going to show some similarity. Ancient Greek Olympian, French knight, or Bruce Lee, they all learned how to punch a guy in the nose. Chinese monk, European man-at-arms, Japanese samurai or Zulu warrior, they all had a long wooden staff with a blade on the end.
Extremely true, but it's the subtle nuanced differences that make it interesting :)
Absolutely. And it could get one to thinking about martial arts for mutants, or for aliens.
Hardly the clumsy weapons that most believe they were.
This is one of the best reference videos for swordfighting! Thank you very much for the upload, I feel like I can understand swordfighting a bit better now. :D
The more long sword fighting I see the more I realize it was used more like a lever then a big knife. Something to weave around the guard positions and wrench the blade from the foes hands.
One the main principles with any double-handed weapon is to exploit the lever given by the front hand. Still, a proper thrust can be an easy to end a fight. Not to mention against an armored opponent, thrusts are much more efficient, so it's relative. It's the point of half swording for example. This principle of the rear hand giving much of the power is rarely understood from the start by sword enthusiasts.
Thank you! I always appreciate the ongoing commitment to educating us.
WOW I DIDN'T KNOW THEY HAD CAMERAS BACK THEN!
It is not actually from the 15 century.
Woosh!
I've been doing martial arts for 13 years, trust me, there's some mindless bashing that goes on... haha But I seriously hate when people think European martial arts were worse than Asian martial arts... Regardless of what HollyWood believes, the western world actually has some of the most sophisticated and effective martial arts ever. They had to! The western world has been fighting for a LONG LONG time... Please... You don't just have almost constant warfare for hundreds if not thousands of years and not come up with countless, sophisticated fighting systems... I'm gonna go "mindlessly bash" my freaking head into my table... While I do this look AWAY from me or STRAIGHT at me... Nothing in between...
I think the myth of mindless bashing comes from the fact that lots of knights used blunt weapons, such as maces and morning stars, which when glanced briefly appear to required less skill/technique than swords. Ultimately all parts of the world where war was commonplace quickly forged the best techniques and weapons available to them, though in a real fight much technique is often forgotten.
My simple way to put shit: CApoeira is closest to actual, hollywood the farest from fencing skills.
The makulele fences knifes, stilletos, machetas and batons... the pendulum step is outflankings base...
the "fleur", handstands n salti... well a flikflak turning beeing pushed downs kindetic energy to jump up again is the fastest way to do... yet: do armored... and try to harmonize a 1+1/2hand longknife´s keys into "fleur". If u mastered that: Poleaxejumping & -dancing moves... force ur opp to halfswording and use his arm to step on it and his shoulders...
I fence a weaklings style... avoiding the Oberhau but to use it mostly for finting, turning to "heavenward" attacks... and to block to turn my back, our arms bound in the cross over it into my opp, to at the point our collision allows it: Most often my point at his plow pull my blade up in a role-forward motion.
Cecile Sphinx As long as you win and didn't get stabbed... haha
True story. When one looks at the actual MARTIAL arts of period (as opposed to modern competition arts), Western and Eastern are actually quite similar in many ways. Especially in close/unarmored combat. The things that work, work everywhere.
Damir Pryce Well, considering the majority of the soldiers weren't professional, well equipped knights I imagine there was a lot of simple flailing and poking and the likes! X)
Hollywood and the movie industry could learn moe than a thing or two from this video. Fantastic :)
Right, I spoke too soon. This is an exceptional presentation. Thank you so much.
[TheSwordTroll]
This is a nicely-done video and the techniques are both interesting and obviously effective. Good job on the authentic clothing, too!
Fantastic video, really nicely done. Great to see the Fechtbuchs brought to life.
Very impressive skill and videotography! Great work!
Wonderful, great video!
Great job on video and thank you for sharing.
Enjoyed watching this. - good music too -
The poleaxe fighting is marvelous.
Glad there were no accidents without the secrets! Health and safety pah. A lot different than fighting in a block. Some of the moves looked oriental. Very instructive and entertaining. Thanks
That's amazing - great skills well done! Great spotting the variations in technique from Japanese styles and good to know we weren't all just bashing each other in the head with sticks for hundreds of years! (we were, we just made it look good!)
This is really cool stuff, Ben. I also love the background music.
This all makes me wanna pick up a poleaxe and find a sparring mate and go "Oi! lemme AXE you some'in!"... I would be the first amateur poleaxe fighter to die due to self-distraction by idiotic laughter.
A lot more physical contact than what they show in the movies! Very cool!
Beautiful!!!!
Amazing!
Some really nice techniques! (and I appreciate that 15th century rain gutter)^^
AWESOME!
Swords are cool. HEMA is cool. Those pants are not.
Will nonya
That's right. They're very warm quite hot even.
+Will nonya I love medieval hosen :(
+Dandy me too, although its probably because I'm bi…
+Will nonya
It's weird, my eyes weren't really drawn to them. Women don't seem to mind a man in hose though.
rchave It worked for David Bowie in Labyrinth.
Very good video!
Superb!
amazing you sir are a master
brb, applying that poleax stuff to naginata
Good work guys. Always nice to see serious technique in action.
That was pretty badass. I always thought of polearms as just a stick with a pointy end. Not any more!
well thats why i said "werent originally supposed to" in fact, the quote "coward was he who was the first archer, he dared not come close to his foe" was originally related as pages, they did what they had to win, but they were honorable, close combat fighters, and usually had archers and such doing that kind of fighting in field battles, but relied on such methods when defending from a siege
I wish guys like this were utilized more in movies.
OHP77 While accurate and entertaining kinda if all movies fights were like this movie fights would be boring. They would need some more speed. Because this is real life the bar is set differently.
@@jacket2038 A real fight would usually have a faster pace. And they would probably strike harder aswell.
Thanks, this is one of just a few videos in youtube with historical based demonstrations and without idiots which are trying to punch their enemies shield. ;)
Yeah, sadly we may never know for sure. Unless some documentation comes up that will shed some light on it.
Very nice. I really like the camera on the ground, wide angle shots. Seeing the plays from inside is great. That was mostly Fiore right? Who else?
Nice winden with the longsword!
Nice video!
I enjoyed the poleaxes very much!
mostly ringeck, but all sorts of stuff we happened to come up with, some jeu de la hache, some codex wallerstein.... bit of everything
You'd be surprised how often I hear that assertion. Especially from fans of eastern martial arts.
Great video, well done. There are guys in my group like the first guy in black, they just move so smoothly and naturally from one move to the next. I am like the red shirt, kind of okay but usually ends up on the floor :-D
Like the wide angle lens. GoPro?
I shall check out all these...thanks so much!
I'm still muddling my way through the Battle of Stoke. My secret weapon: Don't provide tooooo much detail, if you're unsure, then run it past people who know their stuff to fill in the gaps, LoL.
Judy T.
Ben, Yesterday I downloaded this Vid to use 3 seconds of Sword Fights in a Kickstarter Video, Then ended up using 3 or 4, 20 second segments of it, intercut w/ other stuff,.... Its in the background, & I'm floating over it asking for $, to make 3D Shakespeare movies... it was just too awesome, I couldnt stop including parts... I really want to put it on Kickstarter, like next week... Is that OK? can I credit you? Let Me Know!!
I haven't seen anyone from the 15th century use them. But according to the fighting manuals from that time (Talhoffer, Le jeu de la hache, Kal etc.), it seems to be rather accurate.
Just out of curiosity, how would a polearm be used according to you?
swords mostly by mark Vickers
armour by loads of armourers but the main suit is by luke binks and jeffrey hedgecock
pollaxes by Mathijs Witsenburg, Ben Anbeek en Klaas Kloosterhuis.
How do you fight with swords without damaging the cutting edge ?
Wow what training have you been taking? For how long?
Actually (though I can well imagine Fiori describing similar techniques) most of this is Ringeck, codex Wallerstein, Talhoffer, Paulus Kal, a bit of Doebringer (and jeu de la hache). (in no particular order)
Turning the blade upside down was rather common. There are a lot of fighting manuals about longswordfighting that teaches you to hit someone like that, especially in armored fights.
If you want to know more about it you can search for mordhau, mordstreich or mordschlag. So I would say that that strike has indeed very high historical accuracy.
@BrokledeBen if only more re-enactment groups took their fencing as seriously as they take their costume ... love you guys!
I have always read that the attacker always has the advantage - he who strikes first, wins - yet in every demonstration I see the defender is the one shown as defeating the attacker (the one moving to strike first). I would love to see a first strike kill demo - what technique from an attacker will win against a defender?
Most of the old sources say not to wait for your opponent to attack but to rush forward and cut fiercely and the like. However, a large amount of the techniques described talk about how to counter different attacks. That is what these guys are demonstrating. They also have counters to those counters.
In general though if you are only trying to defend eventually your opponent will find an opening. So you have to attack while defending, and defend while attacking. If that doesn't make much sense I'm sorry. I'm a bit tired.
MarvelDcImage Absolutely, you SHOULD always strike first, and the offensive fighter will normally win. These techniques and the like are designed for when things go wrong, to get you out of the 'danger zone' of fighting defensively and put you back in the advantage of offensive attacking. Interestingly it is the same approach still taught in pretty much all combat oriented martial arts across the world.
James Tolson I would love to see a viable set of first strike techniques - my comment was I have never seen any demonstrated - only the defensive stance is always highlighted in these demos because it is more dramatic and probably easier to describe.
+MarvelDcImage
First strike kill would nearly always be a stab to the face. If someone isn't trained then it's the most likely outcome of a fight, it's difficult to parry a quick jab... I suppose the techniques are counter moves to stop that happening. Then there's counter-counter moves, and so on... But you'd need 2 people with lightning reflexes and immense training for it to go on more than a few seconds.
Proportionally though, if they were "real" fights and not demonstrations, then i reckon well over half of them would be over with a very quickly stabbed face. It's just not as informative :)
It is interesting, as I have studied more and learned more not all masters say that you should always strike first. Fiore is quite happy to wait for you in many of his guards, even Ringeck who tells us to always strike first latter says, well some times it is good to wait for them to do something first.
As far as a demonstration of a first intention technique... That is just a basic cut or a thrust. And that makes for boring demos ;)
Where can people learn this? Like any other martial art? It is hard to find a club.
where can i get some clothes like this? i started practcing HEMA longsword
True and I think I can make out electric wiring on the buildings in the background
cool video, but when did people use these techniques? Was this used in judicial combat, or battle?
What is the source of your poleaxe blossfechten. if I may ask. Very nice.
Robert Kirby
Jeu de la hache and paulus kal and talhoffer, mostly
A grand tradition that Star Trek proves is still the same in the future :-D
Bravo excellent half-swording
1:20 and i know i don´t waste time with critic. And am rewarded a sec later with all the arts essential.
I love the angles and the way the music giff off that omg vibe like it really depends apon a life omg and the style of the art of your fighting skill ye thou would be please thus this is a ya not a na a ya I like thee
because the bigger part of the "sword style" have a "grab and stab" move?
Dear Ben,
May I have your permission to share the link to your wonderful video with readers of the E-version of my forthcoming novel? The story is set in the late 15th C. (and BTW, I own a copy of the book of medieval combat - it was fabulous to see the illustrations "brought to life"!)
Email me with any pertinent details, that I may properly credit you and the others.
Many thanks!
Judy
are their places i can train in medevil combat techniques
where did they get their armour
Blunt edges used for safety are a little less fragile than sharp edges, and also edge-on-edge contact is generally avoided. When you deflect an attack you normally use your edge against the flat of their sword (for more leverage) or your flat against their edge (to still have the edge in a position to attack while intercepting their attack).
I hope that helps!
the sources specifically tell you to use the edges in very particular ways, also original swords show the edge damage you would expect.
furthermore, when we tried with sharps, the edge damage was not as terrible as you might assume. When you fight really carefully, the edges stick a lot more with sharps, but if you go a little harder they stick less
Impressive
It looks to me like using the quillion hammer technique is something you can only do once before your enemy is upon you.
Im in the UK unfortunately. I think that this is popular on the continent, but not in the UK. Shame, as it fits in nicely with our Medieval heritage. How do you go about setting up a group like this?
no, i mean like modern sport fencing foils. they could make it happen to create an almost completely safe sparring weapon, so it should be possible for longswords, too.
My take on that one is that a pommel strike is indeed a possibility. But it far from the only option. In many cases a pommel strike may be the best thing to do but sometimes it's not. If for example your grip of the sword is losen by the disarm you may disregard your sword instead of the possibility of your opponent disarming you.
Just as with the pollaxes right after, one time he thrust with the end and the other he strikes with the head.
I really enjoyed all of these techniques. Which sources did you get them from?
+Redneck Ronin
14th-15th century manuscripts, mainly. Look up Talhoffer, Liechtenauer, and "le jeu de la hache" as a few good starting points :)
+rchave I've been studying Talhoffer's sword and buckler techniques in my hema group. I'm looking forward to trying out the polearm techniques too though!
Jeu de la hache is well worth a look then. Although I wince when I see it done quickly without wearing a bevor!
Where'd you recommend getting a good pollaxe that'll withstand some fighting (at least semi-cooperative) while being good quality steel and balanced? What were you using? Who's a good (and maybe affordable...) smith to ask about that, or does anyone produce them regularly (to an acceptable standard)?
+Spec This really depends on how much you're able to spend. If you want something steel, safe, and also aesthetically pleasing then you're looking at around £450-500. Anything much cheaper and you're asking for trouble.
Jacob Deacon Sure, that's about what I would expect
If you're based in the UK check out Whitewell Arms. Not sure who to check out in the States though.
+Spec
There are quite a few lower end options on Amazon.com
+Spec we got them from Mathijs witsemburg and Ben Anbeek
they are a little less expensive than quoted in this thread, i paid 375€ and still lasting after about 9 years or more.
Pull your blows as much as possible but nicks due happen so regular maintenance is a must.
(5th) Compagnie d'Ordonnance part of 'die landen van herwaerts over'.
Fancy fencing is practical for unarmored duels.
When facing armored foe in battle you use the polearm the way it was supposed to be used. Long pole provides great velocity of the mass concentrated at the tip, which results in a powerful blow.
The sharp tip on the other end is not for striking, but for sticking it into ground, by the way.
Swing, wind up, swing. Simple as that. Thrusting isn't the best choice against plate unless you want to lose your weapon.
thrusting is by far the best way to defeat plate armour, as is mentioned in period over and over again and the treatises are full of it.
what group is this?
well done.
2:41 looks interestingly smooth.
How can I find the information of this kind of ancient european martial art?
wiktenauer has a huge repository of original manuscripts and images and translations
I agree to an extent. I'm sure that the weapon was used somewhat different in battle, at least as long as you don't happens to come across someone one on one on the battlefield.
But here they depict unarmored and armored duels. Doing large swings in that context doen't work that well because your opponent is very aware of what you are doing.
It's a bit like a haymaker. It may work in a pub fight. But in a boxing ring you have to do some set up first.
Out f first person, see a forlorn, thumbling Thorn grabbed blindly and nailed into... mhh, excellent placativity in ur tempo for a very clear demo... and the very thang: Smiling death. A lill choreo n show... i miss that armored bullrush, for what else did u close ur sallets visor then "then a brute bashing charge" Sire?
Händegeklapper & Knicks Euch zur Huld: Probat, probat!
Flos Duellatorum ?
I wonder if any of the styles actually worked?
But while in armor, only heavy swings can do any damage. Armor offers protection much higher than it is believed. From what I've read, armored duels usually would end up hand-to-hand, trying to knock the other one down.
So to answer your question:
I believe the use of and weapons themselves depend on your enemy, so I cannot give you single answer. But even the simplest chainmail will neutralize weak swings, making you vulnerable instead, don't you agree?
BTW, if you are Dutch or Fleming, I'm looking for good resources on late 15th C. Brugge and Amsterdam, also...the little things that don't make it into most history books.
JT
haha yeah that was weird, but it is done and recommended in the manuals, strangly enough.
yeah, not like it even hurts with the adrenline going and decent armour, but you just look at the "grills" on their helmets and you despair.
What sources are you using?
it is quite a mish mash
from ringeck, to talhoffer, to paulus kal, to döbringer, some fiore (been a few years)
In terms of your dagger disarms it was kind of stage fighty in a sense, as it is shown like a lot of martial arts instructors demonstrate with the attacker just doing one big slow stab when in reality ppl don't do that they fire a knife/dagger all over the place trying to stab you. Other than though i didn't see much that would be considered stage techniques.
genius!!!!
Isn't there mail in the gaps of armor? How would you like to go past mail? With w thrust? That's a myth.
I would say that guy was holding his sword wrong, but someone who actually knows something is probably gonna give me one of those "NUH-UH" replies
If you had intent and speed in these moves the other guy would not be getting up. Interesting video.
@DecayingFlower funny that! felt a bit spotty in places, uncommital in others, we have done much better at times.
Cool video.. especially since it is done in my garden almost...)-
Tights are badass.
Yes they would try to knock the other one down. Because then you will be able to do that large swing that will do much damage even trhough armor and the poor guy on the ground will have a difficult time protecting himself.
It's still difficult to thrust the tip of those into someone's face with full intent. Everything's a compromise.