Very nice job. LOL at 5:00 that's so similar to the ikkio technique from Aikido. So much for those advocating the "implicit superiority" of eastern martial arts.
0:57 My favorite messer technique :) Also translates pretty well into saber, side sword, etc ^^ Pretty much any one handed sword, really (except really huge rapiers and the like).
Great video, I'm glad there's so much material on Messer fighting, as I've recently developed an appreciation for it. It's light, controllable and great for use with grappling techniques, and I'm willing to bet that it can shear off heads and limbs with ease.
Great vid chaps. People! If parries were supposed to be done with the flat then the quilions would go in the other direction. Swords (and particularly messers) were disposable items.
Excellent video! I've been mostly a Japanese/Chinese swordsman, but I've been wanting to get into medieval sword techniques and considered the longsword, but I prefer one handed swords, so it's best to play to my strengths and this made me really, really want to study the messer.
Its refreshing to see someone get this right for a change. Most of the supposed disarms and binds I've seen on CZcams fail because of poor timing and a misunderstanding of Talhoffer's technique. Well done guys!
This is FASCINATING; I've purchased a Grosse Messer recently and have some practice with iaido and some Japanese fencing in the past. This video is very clear and concise; thanks for the hard work:)
The messer usually has a slight distance disadvantage, so its not surprising that the popular messer techniques feature ways of getting up close, for a grab, punch, chop or lethal parry.
so much edge on edge sword play makes me cry a little inside. but i guess the way the Messer fit into society, they weren't too worried about preserving the blade
The cut from above is the most common type of attack with the messer. 4:224:35 and 4:48 show counters to thrusts, at least two of which could also have been performed against cuts from below.
Thanks! We had them custom made from aluminum by Valentine Armouries, who unfortunately don't make them anymore. You can find similar ones online though, if you search hard enough.
Excellent research and nice execution. It's really great to see the actual techniques from the manuscripts in action. I'm interested in European messer techniques in particular, since I see a lot of similarities (technically and conceptually) between it and Philippine arnis/escrima, especially in the emphasis on hitting the attacker's wrist and "snaking" in the free hand. Great work!
@mailmanofdeth In most cases, you'd be correct, sadly. I'm unashamed to be a student of Bei Shaolin, but I also have a great interest in the messer, the longsword to some degree, and the Russian shashka, though I've found almost NO sources on the last one. More than credit, WMA doesn't really get the respect it deserves and I can only blame Hollywood for portraying it as two people banging their swords together with as much grace as a bull in a china shop.
In that case, sabers are ideal. Most of them tend to have guards protecting the back of the hand and the knuckles. Actually, some moves I've seen relies on deflecting the opponent's blade over the guard.
I think one thing to keep in mind though is that even considering how much poorer people were in historical times, messers are a lot cheaper, lower-class weapons than a longsword. They're basically just machetes (even similar name...). Grid the edge back into shape and it's good to go, no precise masterful razor finish needed. So maybe not as much care was needed? Especially not at the at the cost of a life-saving parry?
Also remember that rising cuts often leave the head exposed, and are riskier than cuts from above. They are also relatively easy to defend against on average and are slower as they work against gravity rather than WITH it, which a downward cut does. Rising cuts are more often done from a quick disengage after initial blade contact like in the technique called "Hendetrucken" by Liechtenauer. Very few techniques begin with a rising cut from wide range, since it can get you killed quite easily! :)
@KissakiSan I see your point. I guess presenting European martial arts to the yet uneducated masses in a more appealing manner would only do good for the HEMA, as more followers equals quicker revitalization. I guess you're right, it's just annoying that it has to be advertised like that.
I was wondering: Why didn't you show any visuals from Sigmund Emring's Fechtbuch? Were there none available or did you have to leave them out for some reason? I think it added a lot of credibility to the figures you've shown by also displaying your historical sources. Overall: Great vid! Grosse Messer are best messer!
Indeed, assuming edge parries weren't used, a simple rotation of the weapon would provide for it. None of the techniques presented couldn't be reproduced with a "flat-parry." Further, the exact perpendicular flat need not be presented, only a enough of a rotation to negate the defender's edge being struck would be sufficient. After all, a proper parry isn't a direct block, it is a deflection.
Question: according to ARMA, re: Codex Wallerstein, "As with other sources, once again no direct parrying (or any "edge blocking") is evident.". I'm not sure how some of these plays could work without a direct parry - I'm not sure whether we should be making more of an effort to parry with the flat, or whether it's a non-issue. Thoughts?
Nice Video! Where did you get your messer from? I am struggeling finding authentic + usable replicas on any manufacturer except albion swords. Can you racomment something else? Kind Regards!
does anyone know why the other hand is behind the back? is it for protection? or is it signifying something, like you only unleash your other hand when you're ready to end the fight?
I will say though, with sabre usually the off-hand is placed on the hip, not the back, related to posture and breathing support. In either case one of the main purposes is to keep the off-hand away from target zones. With daggers this is often reversed as (historical) dagger-fighting involved much grappling.
looks very good. though i cant help but feel the way your recieving the strikes wouldnt be the best for the edge. after a couple of exchanges like them youd see a near saw toothed edge. particularly those static upper blocks.
I'd like to add a little detail my cheater's conscience thought of first - who'd want to advertise the fact that they're holding a dagger or a cocked flintlock in the other hand? That is, assuming it's not a formal duel in question, but rather a streetfight, a robbery or a downright murder attempt in question.
Well, shorter infantry sabers and hangers don't necessarily have a lot of curvature. That's more found on cavalry weapons as I understand it. Some cutlasses kinda looked like messers, even. I'm not sure I see why the lack of a nagel would be troublesome, what with the same going for most other swords. Care to elaborate? As for the reply thing, CZcams kinda does that sometimes. Not sure why.
Messer has certain techniques that require it, and gives more options for disarms and binding with the opponents weapon. Besides the obvious extra protection
first source - the font used is not actually from germany in that time(145x), nor is the spelling or wording. btw I like how all the people depicted have a nice beer belly :D
Overall I like this. However you have some serious edge-hacks in here. I wonder what damage was suffer by your blunts at 1.53, with thin sharp blades that would probably result in deep nicks that can't be filed out.
well its the way that the traditional clothing is used only in festivals, and by reenactors, or people that like to provoke a reaction by say wearing a huge codpiece or stockings too sizes too small. though i think some of the cloths from europ are interesting lederhosen for example, and those skirt things the greeks wear, as well as the baggy pants worn in greek dress dont look so manly but it is and has been for many centuries.
Yowch! I don't know anything about messerfechten, but should the blades make that sort of perpendicular edge on edge contact? Makes me cringe a little!
Only with a katana, or other ridiculously hard steel weapons. Even then, your blade's going to get caught on all sorts of shit from armour, buttons and the like to bone, so you COULD stress about keeping your edge from chipping and rolling, or you could focus on not getting hit by the other guy. Incidentally, binding doesn't work unless it's edge on edge, because it's the two blades biting into each other that causes the bind haha
jomess7879 If you practice or observe good FMA you will see many similar techniques with "binding" but without clashing of swords. It is my view, that since these people are recreating from codices, no one has taught them the subtle art of correct distancing. You will also note that they have not distinguished between a soft fluid at the parry and a hard stopping parry to the set up for the next move. Finally, logically a debilitating hard fast parry to the wrist bones is always preferable to steel on steel. Whereas steel on steel parry is a move of desperation or lack of skill.
@KissakiSan Japanese, Chinese and others practice martial arts in national clothing. If others can't look past leggings of traditional European costumes, well... I guess they're just immature, so to hell with their opinions anyway.
voll lustig die haben damals so geschrieben wie unsere nicht ganz so gebildeten 5 jaehrigen reden, sehr gute arbeit dieses video viele sachen kannte ich schon aber so manches auch nicht
@SirOwenCurunir I have a good messer (steel) from a Czech medieval armoury, if you want i can give you web address... contact me with a private message, i won't do public advertising :)
Very nice job.
LOL at 5:00 that's so similar to the ikkio technique from Aikido. So much for those advocating the "implicit superiority" of eastern martial arts.
Non-issue. ARMA does not believe edge-parries were used. We and many others believe that they were.
0:57 My favorite messer technique :)
Also translates pretty well into saber, side sword, etc ^^
Pretty much any one handed sword, really (except really huge rapiers and the like).
Great video, I'm glad there's so much material on Messer fighting, as I've recently developed an appreciation for it. It's light, controllable and great for use with grappling techniques, and I'm willing to bet that it can shear off heads and limbs with ease.
Great vid chaps.
People! If parries were supposed to be done with the flat then the quilions would go in the other direction. Swords (and particularly messers) were disposable items.
Excellent video! I've been mostly a Japanese/Chinese swordsman, but I've been wanting to get into medieval sword techniques and considered the longsword, but I prefer one handed swords, so it's best to play to my strengths and this made me really, really want to study the messer.
Its refreshing to see someone get this right for a change.
Most of the supposed disarms and binds I've seen on CZcams fail because of poor timing and a misunderstanding of Talhoffer's technique. Well done guys!
This is FASCINATING; I've purchased a Grosse Messer recently and have some practice with iaido and some Japanese fencing in the past. This video is very clear and concise; thanks for the hard work:)
The messer usually has a slight distance disadvantage, so its not surprising that the popular messer techniques feature ways of getting up close, for a grab, punch, chop or lethal parry.
Thank you. The messer really is an enjoyable weapon to work with.
Awesome video! Very well-informed demonstrations.
so much edge on edge sword play makes me cry a little inside.
but i guess the way the Messer fit into society, they weren't too worried about preserving the blade
The cut from above is the most common type of attack with the messer. 4:22 4:35 and 4:48 show counters to thrusts, at least two of which could also have been performed against cuts from below.
4:22 , 4:35 , 4:48 Hope it helps and that I got the times right. The time stamps ceaced to work.
great work!
I love messer/arming sword, i wish there were more manuals about it.
Very nicely done.
Well done. I've learned a few skills thanks to you.
Thank you Rob!
Thanks!
Betsy received a bruise on her hand from that one when the cross hit it...
Impressive! Nice work.
a good job-excellent--wish i could train with you guys
Great stuff guys!
This is excellent, thanks a lot for this.
Very nice.
4:54 Now that's a nasty way to disarm your opponent. ;)
Awesome video, congrats
Thanks again Cory for sharing. Great one. Like that you used helmets.
/Robert
Thanks! We had them custom made from aluminum by Valentine Armouries, who unfortunately don't make them anymore. You can find similar ones online though, if you search hard enough.
Thanks Robert!
Thanks. Well presented.
I may want to look at these treatises, I'm studying mainly out of Lecküchner
Excellent research and nice execution. It's really great to see the actual techniques from the manuscripts in action.
I'm interested in European messer techniques in particular, since I see a lot of similarities (technically and conceptually) between it and Philippine arnis/escrima, especially in the emphasis on hitting the attacker's wrist and "snaking" in the free hand. Great work!
@mailmanofdeth In most cases, you'd be correct, sadly. I'm unashamed to be a student of Bei Shaolin, but I also have a great interest in the messer, the longsword to some degree, and the Russian shashka, though I've found almost NO sources on the last one. More than credit, WMA doesn't really get the respect it deserves and I can only blame Hollywood for portraying it as two people banging their swords together with as much grace as a bull in a china shop.
medieval 2 music
Danke schön!
Very impressive thank you 👍🇬🇧
In that case, sabers are ideal. Most of them tend to have guards protecting the back of the hand and the knuckles. Actually, some moves I've seen relies on deflecting the opponent's blade over the guard.
Thanks, my man!
I think one thing to keep in mind though is that even considering how much poorer people were in historical times, messers are a lot cheaper, lower-class weapons than a longsword. They're basically just machetes (even similar name...). Grid the edge back into shape and it's good to go, no precise masterful razor finish needed. So maybe not as much care was needed? Especially not at the at the cost of a life-saving parry?
very nice work! the slowmotion makes things really clear :D
(and cool Medieval Total War 2 music ofcourse ^^)
*****
As always, stellar work. It really makes me wish that the English had written down anything about their falchion tradition.
Was going to say the same thing- awesome!
Also remember that rising cuts often leave the head exposed, and are riskier than cuts from above. They are also relatively easy to defend against on average and are slower as they work against gravity rather than WITH it, which a downward cut does. Rising cuts are more often done from a quick disengage after initial blade contact like in the technique called "Hendetrucken" by Liechtenauer. Very few techniques begin with a rising cut from wide range, since it can get you killed quite easily! :)
Nice music choice.
Medieval II Total War Soundtrack "Amen"
I'm inclined to agree with you - I can't see how half these plays would work without them.
Just subscribed 👍👌🇬🇧
"No sword for you!" XD
Awesome
nice video. a pity you didn`t add some pieces from leckuchner.
I know: messers are just big sword-like knives, but I've seen that it looks a lot like a germanic saex knife, is there any connection?
Correct. See my reply on our other messer video.
my fav
@KissakiSan I see your point. I guess presenting European martial arts to the yet uneducated masses in a more appealing manner would only do good for the HEMA, as more followers equals quicker revitalization. I guess you're right, it's just annoying that it has to be advertised like that.
I was wondering: Why didn't you show any visuals from Sigmund Emring's Fechtbuch? Were there none available or did you have to leave them out for some reason?
I think it added a lot of credibility to the figures you've shown by also displaying your historical sources.
Overall: Great vid! Grosse Messer are best messer!
That source is not illustrated. Thanks!
Guys, What's the music that starts at 3:07?
fantastic video, but can you answer me a question? i wanna know why they was fight with one hand on back ?!
Its to keep you from cutting your own hand off
We wanted to show these "other sources" here separately in their entirety. Lecküchner is treated elsewhere ;)
Indeed, assuming edge parries weren't used, a simple rotation of the weapon would provide for it. None of the techniques presented couldn't be reproduced with a "flat-parry." Further, the exact perpendicular flat need not be presented, only a enough of a rotation to negate the defender's edge being struck would be sufficient. After all, a proper parry isn't a direct block, it is a deflection.
Question: according to ARMA, re: Codex Wallerstein, "As with other sources, once again no direct parrying (or any "edge blocking") is evident.". I'm not sure how some of these plays could work without a direct parry - I'm not sure whether we should be making more of an effort to parry with the flat, or whether it's a non-issue. Thoughts?
Nice Video! Where did you get your messer from? I am struggeling finding authentic + usable replicas on any manufacturer except albion swords. Can you racomment something else?
Kind Regards!
Nice.
Presumably sabers/hangers are well suited for this too?
My favorite is the last source. Someone died behind the bushes at 4:54? :P
I miss trying to smack people with swords. Thanks for posting this.
does anyone know why the other hand is behind the back? is it for protection? or is it signifying something, like you only unleash your other hand when you're ready to end the fight?
***** thanks much!
I will say though, with sabre usually the off-hand is placed on the hip, not the back, related to posture and breathing support. In either case one of the main purposes is to keep the off-hand away from target zones. With daggers this is often reversed as (historical) dagger-fighting involved much grappling.
looks very good. though i cant help but feel the way your recieving the strikes wouldnt be the best for the edge. after a couple of exchanges like them youd see a near saw toothed edge. particularly those static upper blocks.
I'd like to add a little detail my cheater's conscience thought of first - who'd want to advertise the fact that they're holding a dagger or a cocked flintlock in the other hand? That is, assuming it's not a formal duel in question, but rather a streetfight, a robbery or a downright murder attempt in question.
exelant
There are more sources than just 4.
Well, shorter infantry sabers and hangers don't necessarily have a lot of curvature. That's more found on cavalry weapons as I understand it. Some cutlasses kinda looked like messers, even.
I'm not sure I see why the lack of a nagel would be troublesome, what with the same going for most other swords. Care to elaborate?
As for the reply thing, CZcams kinda does that sometimes. Not sure why.
Messer has certain techniques that require it, and gives more options for disarms and binding with the opponents weapon. Besides the obvious extra protection
first source - the font used is not actually from germany in that time(145x), nor is the spelling or wording.
btw I like how all the people depicted have a nice beer belly :D
Overall I like this. However you have some serious edge-hacks in here. I wonder what damage was suffer by your blunts at 1.53, with thin sharp blades that would probably result in deep nicks that can't be filed out.
well its the way that the traditional clothing is used only in festivals, and by reenactors, or people that like to provoke a reaction by say wearing a huge codpiece or stockings too sizes too small.
though i think some of the cloths from europ are interesting lederhosen for example, and those skirt things the greeks wear, as well as the baggy pants worn in greek dress dont look so manly but it is and has been for many centuries.
Yowch! I don't know anything about messerfechten, but should the blades make that sort of perpendicular edge on edge contact? Makes me cringe a little!
Where'd ya get those messers?
A smith.
@Schmitti1982 Simply to put it out of harms way.
@Gonnakillyou Actually its from Medieval Total War II
how long are your blades
Eric Herstead most one-handed messers should come out to about the length of your arm.
Go Betsy!!!!
What name of song at 0:01?
Duke of Death.
MEMAG Thanks you very much
MEMAG Can't seem to find it, Medieval War has it, but they are clearly not the same song.
nice vids but i thought you were not supposed to block edge on edge.
Only with a katana, or other ridiculously hard steel weapons. Even then, your blade's going to get caught on all sorts of shit from armour, buttons and the like to bone, so you COULD stress about keeping your edge from chipping and rolling, or you could focus on not getting hit by the other guy.
Incidentally, binding doesn't work unless it's edge on edge, because it's the two blades biting into each other that causes the bind haha
jomess7879 If you practice or observe good FMA you will see many similar techniques with "binding" but without clashing of swords. It is my view, that since these people are recreating from codices, no one has taught them the subtle art of correct distancing. You will also note that they have not distinguished between a soft fluid at the parry and a hard stopping parry to the set up for the next move. Finally, logically a debilitating hard fast parry to the wrist bones is always preferable to steel on steel. Whereas steel on steel parry is a move of desperation or lack of skill.
some of the moves look a bit like jiu jitsu moves.
@KissakiSan Japanese, Chinese and others practice martial arts in national clothing. If others can't look past leggings of traditional European costumes, well... I guess they're just immature, so to hell with their opinions anyway.
voll lustig die haben damals so geschrieben wie unsere nicht ganz so gebildeten 5 jaehrigen reden, sehr gute arbeit dieses video viele sachen kannte ich schon aber so manches auch nicht
it seems that European martial arts doesn't get the credit it deserves, everyone only cares about Asian styles,
@SirOwenCurunir I have a good messer (steel) from a Czech medieval armoury, if you want i can give you web address... contact me with a private message, i won't do public advertising :)