"Do you know of any civilizations or empires started by atheists?" | Jake - IL | Talk Heathen 03.26
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- Talk Heathen 03.26 for June 30, 2019 with Eric Murphy & Dr. Darrel Ray.
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Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
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We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
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Caller: "Religion is required to have a successful society."
Also caller: "Well atheistic Sweden is falling apart because religious people are coming to their country."
🤦🏻♂️
The magical thinking of the Availability Heuristic.
If atheists had the opportunity to found a civilization in the past we would likely be colonizing other planets right now.
The thing is that they might have, but then someone makes up an religion to 'unite' (aka control) the masses and what usually happens? They attack and talk over those who don't believe, and people who want to survive will join.
maybe...
As the caller didn't make enough bull shit, that you had to start a new one
😂
You are colonizing other planets, today. The imaginary ones you live on where your ideology is winning.
Speaking as an atheist Buddhist, thank you for knowing we exist 🙏
Same. I (like a lot of Buddhists) see it as a philosophy/psychology of life. Buddha was just a guy with some interesting ideas.
I've seen people in the comments saying stuff like you can't be atheist and religious at the same time... That always gets me. 😅
@@Ares_V Do these people know that religions with no gods exist? Such as the many, MANY forms of animism found all throughout the world?
@@MegaFrog I choose to think they are a bunch of "edgy" 12 years olds who have never looked into other cultures and world views... But whoever they are, they're on the Internet
@@MegaFrog That is an oxymoron. The definition of religion is based around a god or gods.
….”the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods”.
"My god is clearly real, because, empires"
"Islam started one of the largest empires in history"
"I don't believe in that god"
Next caller!
Exactly!!
Yeah this seemed like a simple call to refute. Not all of these religions can be true, so clearly it’s not necessary.
Now that's a spoiler alert!
Actually that is his god too....the god of abraham.
He is ignorant of that
"The Roman Empire existed, that proves God".
"As The Roman Empire collapsed, does that prove no god?"
The romans had many gods. They even killed christians during a period in time.
@@lextalionis8263 I think when the roman empire broke in two and later fully collapsed, it was christian. But if not, at least the "Holy Roman Empire" was definitely christan, and that collapsed too.
Gyallarhorn1 But that’s because of external factors. They didn’t find “the one true god” themselves.
@@lextalionis8263 Which makes it even more intersting in terms of arguing "for christianity". The empire was founded and worshipping the old roman gods. But when they switched to christianity, it collapsed. Jupiter and his pantheon must be the true god.
This is the immediate question they should have asked. It's such an easy way to debunk his entire argument.
1:16 "People can't really unite with atheism" he says on a TV show designed with atheists as its main target audience.
His argument is like saying that water is poisonous because 100% of people that died drinked water.
It's found in 100% of all cancers. COINCIDENCE!?
@@CPCGamer
And in 100% of all drownings on the planet! Coincidence? 🤔
@@JB-yb4wnto be fair you can drown in other things ;) I heard a story about a boy that drowned in cow shit
@@Kulascus
I have heard also of people drowning in wheat pools.
You can also die of water poisoning. If you consume more water than your kidneys can process. Generally, more than 1 litre per hour for an average healthy adult.
Yeah, because history has been so awesome. Religion has been with us throughout history and just look how peaceful it has been.
Jake was keen to base his argument on history. Let's do that: The Roman empire was created using the world view based on gods we now consider archaic (Zeus, Athena, Cupid, etc.). And when it became a "christian" empire under Constantine (approx. 330AD), it very quickly declined and collapsed within less than 100 years. Not a good reason to accept christianity. (And I'm speaking as a christian myself.)
Rob Whythe exactly what I was going to say. When the Portuguese brought Christianity the feudal daimyos of Japan were dealing with constant instability and shut itself away once it united once again because of that. The protestant reformation and great schism tore Europe in half with at the time largest conflict in human history. Crusaders states were corrupt and weak with the exception of the Teutons. Latin America was and still is unstable and corrupt which goes back to licking the Catholic boots of Iberia. Religion is a dangerous thing for civilizations.
Constantine converted the empire to Christianity in 313. Rome fell in 476. The Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire) lasted until 1453. Gibbon blamed a lot of the fall of Rome on the Christian conversion, however that really isn't popular today.
Not 100% sure, but I believe that the roman empire was without religion. That their emperors was regarded as Gods. The greek mythology is nice stories, but did not rule anybodies life and society in the roman empire. It was quite decadent, and adaptable to the whims of every insane ruler there. The roman empire went under, but that was not because of christianity, more complex. It was because of imperialistic empires crumble, unless you are brutally terrorizing the colonies, having policestates there. Once you give a little freedom, people will seek more freedom. That was constantines error, he recognized peoples worth a bit more, and let them be more free to seek their own destiny, a rookie mistake that despots hardly ever make. Those who do, they get toppled. People seek commonalities then, through religion, ethnicity, class, etc, and fight for more autonomy for that group. So an empire then fights nationstates, cultural groups, and classes. I am not sure about what constantine gave them, but before constantine, you had to serve in the military or be of higher class to have private ownership rights and voting rights. If he gave that to common people without serving, then it is obvious why he was toppled. Linking personal freedom and prosperity for the common man to loyal and brutal service for the despot guaranteed power. If he gave that to people freely, he strengthened the common man who became stronger and could revolt, and he weakened his army.
@Thomas Dendtler Good enough, I take this as agreement.
@@dnciskkk9037 Constantine died of presumably natural causes after ruling for 24 years in 337. He was never toppled. The empire lasted another 1100 years.
egyptians, greeks & romans where polytheists and have ruled over the world for centuries, so does that mean that polytheism was the right religion?
I don't believe he was trying to prove what the right religion is, but only that atheism is wrong.
Atheism would be a great idea if...if...I'm not sure how atheism would be a great idea.
Mr T Plus Rome became weak after adopting Christianity.
Came here to say that.
@Syed K hardly. What we can prove though is people can't split the fucking moon in two or walk on fucking water.
Wow, y'all managed to get an actual Victorian Era imperialist to call in
Impressive
Jeeves Anthrozaur he used a special time-bending telegraph.
Time passes slower in areas of high density. That's all I'm saying here..
Eric's like a preschool teacher, he cheers and claps for callers when they manage to use the most basic human level of listening and politeness. :)
"HOORAY!!! You didn't respond by interrupting me with an ad-hominem or fallacy, you're such a great caller!"
God, the default of the unimaginative, the refuge of the dishonest and fearful, and tool of the malicious and ambitious.
@S Gloobal Bahahahaha, typical nonsensical drivel from someone who believes in bronze age mythology which is filled with stories relating to mystical and magical powers of a man made deity but refuses to accept facts, hahahaha, oh the irony.
S Gloobal the troll who says dumbshit and thinks he can prove the existence of god without ever providing the evidence which he claims he has
@Jimbus Rift what did they say? Less than 11 hours and their comment is already deleted.
Damn, I missed Gloobal’s BS? I had popcorn and everything.
Also a breath mint!
If theism tends towards empire building, this is a great argument against theism.
This show is really helping get over my fears. I am so happy that I found you Talk Heathen!!!
How are you doing now
Jake's own argument reflected back against him:
"Look at Sweden - it's being taken over by Muslims!"
Okay, then what you're saying is that the Muslims have the right god, then? Is that it?
KlaxonCow I was gonna say exactly that
Does he realise that they aren't even taking over Sweden?
As a Swede, I fucking hate it when people who don't even live here and have no idea what is going on talk about it. The only thing he does is listening to Fox News and think he have all the facts without actually looking into the issue itself.
Except that that in sweden we actually out assimilate the Muslims for every generation they live here, many second and third generation immigrants tend to lean more and more toward secularism as it is a much more palatable choice for the younger generations.
KlaxonCow Same god different religion.
thegeorgezila Shid is good presumably. People just seem to confuse the fact that those three religions worship the same god but just have different ways pf going about it.
The moment he linked the downfall of empires to every standard right wing talk point we learned all we needed on his position
How civilized are the religious based empires? Most of these civilized empires Conquered and destroyed whole groups. They used god as one of their reasons for their inhumane treatment of those under them.
Empires were built by religious and non religious leaders.
All failed.
@@JamesRichardWiley I wouldn't say the British empire failed. I know it isn't nearly as strong as it once was but it still exists
@@JamesRichardWiley The British Empire didn't fail and cases can be made for the success of other empires.
Yeah, he kept bringing up empires like they're *good* things.
According to my values conquering = success which = good. I’m not a universalist. My goal isn’t less harm for all of humanity or living in some peaceful secular utopia which tries to suppress human nature. I gave up the Christer toxic “peace on earth” egalitarian non sense along with my gawd belief unlike most atheists.
"Do you know of any civilizations or empires started by people who believe smartphones exist?"
South Sudan
@@himedo1512 I understand where you're coming from but it already existed within Sudan. Therefore smartphones are useless and weak.
Do you know of any civilizations or empires started by people who do not possess an anus? That surely proves god exists. It gets so tiresome.
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”
Seneca quotes (Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD)
My fellow atheist we must build Ericlandia grab your shovels
But we havent. we wont. y? Thats the callers point.
KrattAzzi can we base our government off the book of Eric
Start digging!
I don't believe in shovels
Jake is the king of moving the goal posts. Also, Star Trek always proposed a religion free society.
Yes. Star Trek ! !
@@doneestoner9945Did anyone catch the “ain’t it ironic you’re talking about religions in THIS country” towards the end? Shows you the underlying threat of THIS IS WHAT IS TRUE AND YOU WILL BELIEVE EVENTUALLY.
They gave this fool way too much time.
cshubs agreed
I think he didn't put that argument in a good way. His point is that atheists are not good at building things. This argument was not about God. He was trying to point out that why should we follow atheism. What has atheism given to the world? Dont get me wrong we have had great atheist scholars philosophers but as a civilization atheists haven't done so much.
He was trying to point that an atheist hedonistic society is not sustainable.
He was just pointing out that why should we follow atheism and that's my question also why be an atheist?
The Chinese cilization and culture, which is 4,000 years old consist of a population that is 4/5 non-religious. The most common reason for the collapse of a civilization is not because the lack of a religion, instead it is because the people have exceeded the carrying capacity of their environment, e.g. Mayan civilization or the Civilization on Easter Island. Too many people and not enough resources.Dr. Darrel made a good point.
Big TT spreading too thin as well. And the people being subjected by the empire usually unify to rebel and fight back. Barbarians sacking Rome is a perfect example of tit for tat mentalities reciprocated by empires.
Plus civilizations and successful countries progressed due to a wealth of natural resources or in the case of the US natural resources and cheap labour at the beginning.
@@timothyirwin8974 We still have cheap labor today, the rich as they always have been are parasites.
Ah, not exactly. The interest in Christianity in China today is so great that the government has to regularly breaks up churches and demolishes church buildings. According to Pew Research, Christianity is projected to grow by 7-percent annually for the next 50-years. Given that China has a current population of 1.38-billion people, that means in China alone there will be 96.6-million new Christians just this year. That's just China...
James, this in no way anti-christian. I agree that there is growth in China. However in Europe it is on the decline. You understand that the same will happen in China too, over time, right? Peace brother.
Pretty sure human civilization started without theism
Could be, but humans have always found comfort in putting something between them and stuff they didn't understand (yet) or were afraid of (like dying).
So some form of belief probably started pretty early I'd reason.
It's still mayor superstitious nonsense of course, it's just that we took a long time (thank religions for that) to get the tools to prove it is nonsense.
@@Virtualblueart I agree
Hmmm. Small gtoups of people perhaps, but as far as i remember, mesopotamia eas the first civilization , and they were religious, though jesus wasnt in the equation, the annunalis were.
@@Alientcp I'm afraid your understanding of religion in Mesopotamia is a bit simplistic. There were no consistent theology or cosmology, every city had its own patron deity, and myths were created or rewritten in favor of it. Annunaki is what newagers like Sitchin go crazy about, but nowhere near as prominent in the Sumerian / Akkadian texts as individual deities like Ea, Enlil, Inanna, Ereshkigal etc.
@@LukeVilent Does it matter if i get the details wrong? Im not trying to do a lecture on mesopotamia's religion. Im just stating that as far as i remember it was the first civilization and it already had some sort of religion. Which was the point i was trying to make.
This question is about as useful as asking if any civilizations or empires were created by people who like Captain Crunch.
Atheism is not an ideology. It includes an understanding of the importance of evidence because the thinking brain will not be naturally convinced when an unfounded claim is put forward.
no gods, no masters. I know this comment is 9 months old. I guess as long as atheism is strictly a response to a claim then yes atheism always involves a step of skepticism, so even though it only addresses 1 issue, it implicitly includes skeptics. However some people who call themselves atheists do not apply skepticism. Mainly teens lol. Or people who were hurt by religion. In that case god could be real and also just be a shitty guy. Or people who believe in aliens or the supernatural and don’t believe in god. This is why it can be hard to assign extra attributes to the name “atheist”. Many different people call themselves that word. We have “secular” as well though-implying that we navigate problems through objectivity without religion’s “help”. Ideologies usually involve a group of several disparate tenants that don’t deductively follow each other.
Atheism doesn’t include an understanding of the importance of evidence, you just said it yourself atheism is not an ideology.
You can be unskeptical about 99% of things and somehow disbelieve and you will be an atheist.
There is some correlation, of course, especially in strongly religious societies since you’d need that kind of skeptical mind in order to get out of religious shackles, but atheism doesn’t include skepticism in any way.
Anyone who's played Sid Meier's _Civilization_ knows that a religion is a strong unifying force in your empire, but Daryl's original question rather begs the question of whether an empire is a good thing on the whole.
Jake,
The Brazilian tribe Piraha has no religion. It may not be an empire to you, but it is a culture group of people.
Also, if you think cultures fall apart and have atheists in the end, consider these two points:
Perhaps they fall apart because the atheists were the stronger people and the religion failed.
Perhaps you are unaware of the the studies done by Gregory Paul, who surveyed about 30 developed countries and found that the more religion they had, the worse off they were for cultural traits.
Bazinga.
66000 people in Brazil are killed every year. That's the religion and poor people relationship
If I were on the show, I'd hang up on the caller the moment they laughed out loud.
I have no knowledge of any Empire that was established by Atheists, I'll be honest. However, I do know that all those empires that was established have fallen apart, and no one still exists to this day.
Perhaps if an Atheist had established one, it might still exist.
Kenji87 ahh touche
Think callers argument was. As soon religion is dropped. Empire falls.
You don’t know about the USSR, or communist China ?
(Just to be clear : I’m not saying those are good examples, but these were regimes that were technically atheistic, although they had ginormous religious influences)
“30 pages ain’t gonna do shit”
Gold!!
I dunno. I only had to read 30 pages of the bible to realize it was a crock of shit.
The 30 page comment was a condescending judgement without true merit. The caller never said the paper he read was a doctorial thesis.
@Tom Dick I think he said that 30 pages ain't worth shit, "compared" to the 400-500 page thesis on study of said "religions." I'm guessing.
@@valkyriefrost5301 what’s it like living your life without a sense of humor?
@@telsonater - Holy hell, man! You're replying to a comment from 2 YEARS ago!!!! That really made me smile!
I thought it interesting that he seemed to start with a premise that empires were apparently inherently good.
I seem to remember many if not most empires being quite willing to commit countless atrocities to expand their empire.
Certainly you could argue that empires did some good things, but I would argue that empires almost by definition focus on expanding and controlling their empire. With results that tend to be very ugly for anyone standing in their way intentionally or not.
I think he may have meant that empires are "successful" or"dominant", which seems logical if he is talking about societies that are begun by religion people.
Also, what you say is true. Every powerful society has both committed and condoned atrocities.
I noticed that as well, what a tool.
I absolutely LOVE when callers giggle like this guy after making a point that makes no sense.
"Do you know of any civilizations or empires started without atheists?"
Yes, first humans.
When Adam and Eve were getting kicked out of the garden of Eden, they were probably walking out saying, "Yo! Fuck that guy! Let's make our own garden!"
@@neutronpixie6106 1.adam and eve didnt happen
2. Thatd just be saying you hate the god you believe in and isnt atheism
3. Atheism is lack of belief in a god
@@catnerdadrian7601 4. he was joking
Why doesn't he look at the world today? The most prosperous countries on the planet (Scandinavian countries and northern European countries, Japan, etc.) are the most nonreligious societies that has ever existed.
I would be very wary of lumping Japan into those other countries. It's not even a matter of whether Japan is that nonreligious (and this alone is very debatable, religion is simply practiced differently but it is very much part of people's life and to an extent that would surprise many), when it comes to a society's health Japan has all sorts of red flags.
For starters, there is the absurdly high suicide rate. Japan very rarely drops from the top ten annual list as compiled by the OECD and every now and then even climbs into the top two. Then there is the dismal record when it comes to women's rights (this includes everything, from a steep wage gap, to having little access to decent jobs and recently there is at least one university that is on trial for deliberately fudging entrance exams of female applicants to med school; and the list could go on), an even more dismal record regarding LGBT people...etc, etc.
My point is, if you are concerned with what makes a society healthy and what promotes its citizens welfare then Japan is not the best example you can pick. It surely cannot be at all put in the same category as Sweden and Scandinavia in this regard.
Anyone know of any atheist civilizations that failed? I can think of plenty of theist civilizations that did.
Christianity was one of the reason the Roman Empire collapsed.
*British Empire collapses*
53 Nations like this.
Ghosts? That’s nonsense
Holy Ghosts? Lives within me and blesses me every day praise the lorr
Eric´s got the smoothest voice...and a huge patience with stupid people :D
Eric’s vomit inducing niceness to everybody is truly irritating imo
@@charlotteleveire9479 Kill them with kindness
My favourite answer to "Do you know about this thing?" is this guy's "I probably heard about it, but I don't know much about it," rather than "No. I've never heard of such a thing." Kids, let's just grow up and be honest...
If theism gives you emperors and tyrants, then I'll vote for no theism. Oh, that's atheism.
Ayatollahs, religious crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.
@@rojh9351 noone expects the spanish inquisition!!
Bring on the comfy chair!
I love how Eric can turn almost any call into a something other than the dumpster fire it starts out as. He uses the same techniques I used while working with children with behavioral and mental health issues to deescalate callers who are combative and stuck in a loop.
The nations whose citizens enjoy the BEST lives by every measure of freedom, accommodation, happiness, quality of life, etc. are the LOWEST in religiosity...and absolutely the reverse is true as well.
Took them 25 minutes to get to what I realized immediately.
Nations are overwhelmingly founded by religions because religion makes it easier for the people to organize in the first place.
That doesn't mean any of the countless gods humanity has worshipped actually exist, nor does it mean atheists couldn't start a nation; it means religious people play the game on easy mode.
That's exactly what I thought, it's easier to control people that are brain washed by the thought of a god/gods than those who think for themselves
Schweden is one of the best countries to live in, by the way... this guy has no clue what he is talking about.
Les Brown, I’m so glad we don’t have prostitution in the United States. We are blessed beyond measure.
Another weak attempt to show atheism is empty or has no strength.
@MrStripeyDog Yes. To believe without evidence is irrational, therefore not believing without evidence is rational. Since atheism is not believing without evidence that there is a god, that is rational.
@MrStripeyDog no. I meant that atheism is based on lack of evidence that god exists. Thanks for pointing that out, I will fix it
@MrStripeyDog And theist is not based on evidence,it is based on belief and lack of evidence.
@MrStripeyDog And lastly, proving non-existence is nonsensical. Cause that is impossible, so you're shifting of proof to opposite side is a dishonest way of arguing.
Here look, prove to me that I am not a god that hides his strength, prove to me that ultimate teapot exists, prove to me that this is not a matrix. You can't. That is why your burden of proof shifting is dishonest.
@MrStripeyDog
"But you said atheism is based on lack of evidence and belief too."
>>I tought my point about evidence was clear. I stand corrected, so I fixed it so you could understand. Also I never here used belief and atheism in same sentence(one directed at other)
"So your belief about gods not existing is not based on evidence, but lack of it. Isn't that called faith?"
>>1st. I don't know if any of gods exist.
2nd. Correct way of saying it is disbelief in your claim that god exists. Those two things are not the same(believe in non-existence and disbelief in existence) one is possible to prove while other is impossible for example.
3rd. My stance is based on your given lack of evidence(given that it is impossible to prove any non-existence outside of illogical things like square triangle).
Now, that we got it out of the way, I want to say that atheist can have faith. Some even believe in afterlife, reincarnation, etc. So I fail to see where you are going with it.
What if aliens come down and destroy our entire planet! I guess Jake will finally admit that he didn't have the right God religion but these aliens do!!! Lmao
Jake’s argument might as well be, “might makes right,” which is infantile reasoning at best.
10:50- If that's his definition of "faith", I wonder what his definition of "gullible" is.
This guys argument fails on one simple premise:
Correlation does not imply causation.
I don’t know if any cultures that weakened as a result of atheism, so I can’t really say, but this guy actually has to show the causal link between atheism and geopolitical decline, or else I’m just going to point out how Rome began to decline when it embraced Christianity.
Kudos!
A devout Christian would love to throttle me for not believing in his god.
After I am beaten into submission or dead, civilization can begin.
@@JamesRichardWiley I suppose it is rather easier to form a civilisation when one has killed off or otherwise removed all those who once disagreed with you.
currently, modern China, and even Japan. I'm sure I could dig up others. But these two just came to mind off the top of my head.
USA had secular forefathers
“No unifying capabilities” calls the atheist COMMUNITY of Austin..
Uno Dos religions don’t agree on anything else but their imaginary friends and are massively divided about everything else. See how stupid you sound now?
I can think of lots of countries founded by non-stamp collectors. I can think of lots of failed civilizations that didn't have cable television. I can think of lots of civilizations that were founded by non-Christians. I can think of lots of organizations or groups that aren't christian. Now what's my point?
@@dannyslag
If there is any justice in the world, all of them.
@@dannyslag
There is a reason that vanilla is the most popular flavor!
Followed, of all things, by cookies and cream...
If you want cable tv avoid failed civilizations?
This caller forgets the first christian empire fell apart. And the USA was founded on secular values and not any religion. And as Eric Pointed out, that just because you are an atheist, does not make you a critical thinker.
The founders promoted Christianity. They just didn't want a national religion like England.
Bad Atheist true. That's what you get when you are influenced with religious believes. You automatically filter and discard important information. Bet a lot of people believe Trump is a true Christian.
@@keithherring7677
Some of them promoted a form of Christianity. Some of them. Some were deists and some were atheist.
@@keithherring7677 So why did those same founding fathers write "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" in the Treaty of Tripoli?
@@keithherring7677 wrong.
They could have shut this nonsense down early.
Jake: "You can compare the number of societies with a god belief to the ones that don't have one, and you can see how many were successful vs how many weren't."
Follow up question: So Jake, you just said that *all* societies you know of were founded on a god belief... care to guess how many more have collapsed than are currently successful?
The The Three Plagues of Abraham: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have caused more harm than everything else combined.
Malaria is a contender.
im glad you didnt let him go down the "how is sweden now" rabbit hole, cause i guarentee you this guy is a white nationalist and was going to throw down some dog whistles and alt-right talking points about the immigration "problem".
edit: ooops, spoke too soon.
Yeah. He did actually say that Sweden was being overrun by big bad scary Muslims. Ha ha ha ha.
Be happy that the gaslighting was well controlled by Eric.
These theists want to see the world destroyed just so they can say their absurd prophecies came true
We have a huge "immigration" problem. No dog whistles here that only some can hear.
@Phelan "tens of millions of Norwegians..." made me lol irl, but I get your point
That holy ghost moment was a total gotcha! Congrats Darrel
I read Jared Diamond's book "Collapse" - it is an excellent study of why some societies thrive and why some collapse from ancient times to what was the present when he wrote it.
Sweden have had a freedom from religion policy for almost 70 years now. And we are one of the big research and science producers of the world, despite having a total population that is less than New York. Let that put things in perspective...
if every empire that was built by theists has fallen....then he is making our point. how about we stop building empires based on theistic beliefs. Maybe atheism if the answer? (yes, it is)
All that is necessary for a successful society is agreement between it's members on interactive behavior.
I can swing my fist, but that right ends at your nose.
It doesnt matter what the majority believes because the majority can be wrong. End of discussion.
Jake: No I was calling in only for my "gotcha" question
Rome, prior to Christianity: Owned entire Mediterranean Sea.
Rome, after Christianity: One city.
Make of that what you will.
@@dancerxfox-8113
I know, it was a joke. That is why I don't give an actual conclusion.
Diviance I'm sure any good bible thumper, will blame the decline of the Roman Empire, on the crucifixion of that hippie guy that no one can prove ever lived!
@@dancerxfox-8113 not to the one-neuron apologetics who can't account for multivariability.
@@dancerxfox-8113True! As did the rise of Rome and other civilization's. Geography, socio-economic factors, human ingenuity, politics and luck can all be historically evidenced and verified. Whereas none of the various deities can.....
@Jubei Yang And it keeps up the Roman practice of Pedarasty too....
In Sweden right now: lots of swimming, ice cream and other summer vacation activities. A huge problem we have is too much consumption of Halloumi cheese. And there is also a lot of debate about the salary of soccer players.
I'm so tired of people who have never lived or visited Sweden saying it's falling apart or being taken over by Muslims (a silly "argument" that just breeds fear). There are some problems right now, but they are far from affecting the vast majority of the population or the country's institutions. Every country has its problems, Sweden too. However, if you look at the objective facts of the country's and its citizens well-being, Sweden is still holding on to its high ratings.
Basically, Jake thinks that violent conquest, under the banner of a God, is way better than the civilisation that falls before it - nice guy!
The common denominator for empire's is violence not God
Violence in the name of God(s)
Actually it's technology
I love it when "Christians" play the religion card on behalf of other religions, when it suits them. "People have always believed in a supreme being in one form or another!" ;O)
If you want to talk about "Empire Building" then "Christian" nations sought to subdue "heathen" religions and enforce the "one true God" on them. God had now to do with it! 😉
Watch enough of these videos and the topics blur together. Awesome unique call! Thank you!
This prat says we should consider "what is now happening in Sweden"...???? WHAT is happening in Sweden? It is one of the best countries in the world to live in, so what is happening? He should stop listening to altright preachers. I am so glad I live in Sweden and not in the US as Sweden treats people with kindness and compassion and looks after people. No detention centre, no death penalty, no poverty like in the US.
His argument with Sweden and Norway died down with how long they have been in existence..
Well, most values we have today like secularism or freedom of speech have been in existence for a very short time.
False, they've existed for a long time, they've just been expressed only for a short amount of time. Anyone who expoused them were not treated too kindly.
Isn't the basic idea that CORRELATION doesn't equal CAUSATION!
close - it's correlation doesn't imply causation. That distinction is important because correlation can equal causation but not simply because the correlation exists. There has to be additional evidence to support the correlation actually having a causal effect on the outcome.
sshhh, don't antagonize the lesser-evolved species. you don't want to load them with too much info. it could be too much for their one-neuron brain
@@GrammeStudio So what you are saying is you don't want to educate your neighbors? How is that any better than a religion?
Anyone know what the book Darrel recommended is called?
Which makes one question why the Holy Roman Empire crumbled. It grew without christianity, flourished for a thousand years, yet dissolved while under christianity.
Flourished for a thousand years? Is was a bordergore of dozens of kingdoms, duchies, bishoprics, etc. Individual realms within it were flourishing but not the HRE as a institution. And the HRE existed for less than 1000 years.
This conversation played out two minutes into it.
Sooo...empires typically have God, so God is a good thing whether or not he exists? Or could it just be...that empires are bad and religions are part of what enable that badness?
Every time someone asks me about an “atheist world view” I always just ask the same question back but with the word “theist”.
In this case: “Can you name 1 civilization that started just based on THEISM, not any particular religion, just the belief that god(s) exist?”
“Ok guys we’re gonna make a new society! We believe in a god, but we aren’t gonna make any doctrine or create any moral systems around it.”
Thank you for noting the US Constitution is based on the principles of the Enlightenment. So often people let Christians get credit for the concepts in it.
USSR and the PRC
And i don't know if taoism or confucianism are theist???? That would be a lot of empires that were atheist
Japan. Some parts of the original India, before the British made it into one big country.
I'm sure Jake would agree that the Roman, Egyptian, Greek, Norse and pagan gods were all false gods and not real at all. I seriously doubt that he would want to pretend that those gods are real gods, just to try to prove his failure of a point. SO, if we can agree that all those civilisations were founded by NOT by religion, but rather by people who were religious, then we've made some progress. The next step is to ask: Were those gods real? He's already agreed by now that they were false gods, so our analysis of his position has revealed that PEOPLE are able to found civilisations, based on false gods. Does that mean that god is real? How could it possibly mean that god is real? Why would any "real" god allow civilisations to grow and flourish, when they are (or were) based on false gods that don't exist and have never existed?
Furthermore, if a successful, continent-spanning empire/ civilisation can be built -on a false god- by people with faith dedicated to a false god that doesn't exist, then what we're saying is that successful civilisations can be built, that are based on bullshit. How does THIS prove the existence of god? ANY god?
Erik and Dan, I love you guys. But your responses were a bit 'weak-sauce' in dealing with this nutcase. Whether you guys pulled your punches or whether you guys just failed to engage, the end result is the same; You didn't deliver the knockout blow that this shit-for-brains deserved. Moreover, you weren't seen to be eviscerating his shit-for-brains, so that all those 'undecided' neutrals out there, could see for themselves that he does indeed have shit-for-brains. I just dunno why you guys took it so easy on him...
Hi Razar,, I don't think it is that simple, from what I understand theists prefer faith in (any) God to a lack of faith. Bad faith strengthens their "true faith". I know it sounds mad but at least they can share an equally bad idea with other theists, atheists on the other hand are harder to convert to nonsense.
And the whole 'we're here for a reason' thing never made any sense to me. It's basically saying they think some creature that is more powerful than them, has something it wants from them. Personally I prefer creating meaning for myself and my own life and not living for something or one else's reasons and meanings. I don't see how living for someone else's whims could be a good thing, on any level.
Jake: Crystals, ghosts, bigfoot... HA! Those people are just crazy! Now let me tell you about my god..........
'Civilizations and empires were started by people who believed in a God so God must exist'
Righto dude
welcome to trolling with Jake
This guy is simply twisting current events to try and make a very poor connection.
I wanted to see his reasoning behind bringing up Sweden so much. I have a feeling it may have led to "But immigration is destroying Sweden" despite no evidence of such a claim.
If the vast majority of the countries at the time of their founding were religious and the countries fail, shouldn't Jake be making his fallacious reasoning that religion actually leads to countries failing?
6:52 "There is no empire/civilization that *could be started* where the people are atheists..."
I could have missed it, but I wish you guys had pointed out what he did there.
He went from:
1. "Do you *know* any empire/civilization started by atheists."
...to...
2. "There *is no* empire/civilization started by atheists."
...to...
3. "There *could be no* empire/civilization started by atheists."
Just because you don't know of any - doesn't mean there is none. And just because there is none - doesn't mean there could be none. I wished you had asked him what evidence he has that there could be none. Cause that's a pretty bold assertion.
Genghis Khan was a devout, practicing atheist and he founded a VAST empire that was actually larger than the Roman Empire. You could also argue that the (failed) communist expansionism was based on an 'Atheist' ideology.
People's Republic of China and the old Soviet Union. Both qualify as empires, both unequivocally atheist.
Says you.
I concur. I work for the Chinese; they are very proud of their history, very patriotic, and they have their shit together. That's how you forge an empire.
Soviet union was not atheist as the Russian Orthodox Church was part of the state.
@@rowleyj31 USSR was an atheistic state.
@@AlexS-hw4if History says otherwise.
He doesn't understand the difference between religion as a device to build and manage a society vs the popularity of a belief does not validate or confirm the belief.
The caller made one valid point but didn't know why it was valid. Atheism doesn't have anything to do with politics, tribalism, culture, or any other reason that countries are started. It's a position on one and only one topic.
And the caller has no idea that there are more than 25 countries in the world today where more than 50% of the inhabitants of the those countries are atheists and there are far fewer problems than when the countries were largely religious. Among these are the UK, Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Ireland, France, Spain, and Australia.
Jake. The master of circular reasoning.
Master of the circle jerk
So, I had a conversation with a Christian who adamantly told me that all of their prayers come true. So, I asked the Christian if they could do me a huge solid...
I asked them to pray as hard as they could that God would cure world hunger. The Christian has yet to get back to me because, I am sure that they are praying to end world hunger...
I never knew that in order to end world hunger all one had to do was ask a Christian to pray for world hunger to end. We should all ask our Christian friends to end other terrible things like natural disasters and cancer!
We did it! We saved millions of lives! We are heroes! Just got to wait for the prayers to be answered!
When I was very young, I prayed to end world hunger. I did it every single night but one day it dawned on me that maybe I wasn't being too sincere so one night I prayed very hard. I asked God to stop world hunger, in particular to help the children in Africa who were starving (and whose images haunted me).
I went to sleep that night feeling great which was very rare for me.
The very next day, what do I see on TV? The same ad asking people to please donate to the starving children and warning that without our help they would die. I was furious. In my innocence I truly believed that God would intervene and save the children and lo and behold, absolutely nothing happened. My prayer wasn't selfish so why didn't God answer it?
I did not reach the conclusion that there was no God, that came much later but I did realize that God wouldn't do diddly squat to help anyone. If God could watch the suffering and death of the innocent, as He clearly did, then he wouldn't help me either. We were entirely on our own, which was bad, and God could snap into righteous wrath and just wipe us all out, which was even worse.
It wasn't a happy childhood, no.
@@Nocturnalux Wow, thank you for sharing. I know that it is a very difficult thing to talk about sometimes. Especially when at a young age you are realizing that your epistemology is changing the views of the world that you where taught.
May I ask what was it that had changed your views later in life? I understand if it's a touchy thing for a lot of us it is. But I still find it interesting to hear how other peoples epistemology has changed their world views.
Again thank you for sharing this. And, I am so verry sorry that you had a rough childhood. Hoping that now things have gotten a bit better for you and those around you.
@@Ashenshugura Thanks for your kind comment.
I was heavily indoctrinated in Catholic school (from kindergarten all the way through high school, it was much worse from kindergarten through grades 1-4) and this event must have taken place when I was 6 or 7.
Before that I had prayed for myself (but it never ever worked, I knew this was because I was a bad girl and any kind of succor I needed would be dismissed; it might even be a sin to ask for help in some contexts) so I already had no illusions as to the power of prayer- on its own- to work.
In school we were told about the starving children in Africa (in fact, this was used to guilt trip us into eating food that we had already spat out...yeah because it was our fault they were dying!) and it caused me great pain. I'd stay up at night thinking about it.
When I decided to pray for them, I thought my prayer would get through because it was for the sake of others.
One thing that Catholic school taught me is that it is not terribly difficult to dash a child's sense of worth- I felt for most of my childhood that I was sinful and horrible so all the bad things that happened to me were my fault- but it's much difficult to convince anyone that others are worthless.
The starving kids in Africa were not 'bad', that was me; they deserved help and were getting none; God *should* help them but He did not. The conclusion was that God was an utter monster.
I think that what helped me leave this terrible head-space was the fact that I never felt a love for God or the religion. Church and mass caused me anguish, forced confession nearly made me throw up and God was an evil monster along with his minions, the nuns, priests and everyone else who was on their side. Fortunately my parents were not terribly religious so the moment I stepped out of school I could relax.
Still, I spent quite some time in therapists at the ripe age of 8, developed nervous migraines at the age of 7...and I'm not entirely sure I got away unscathed. I feel very anxious even when I'm about to do something fun and I suspect this is an artifact from my religious upbringing.
I can remember when I realized that God could not be real. I was 12 years old and was sent to a religious retreat. It was the last time I gave it a genuine shot and tried to believe all I was told. At the end of time, after much 'God this and God that', I remember emerging, taking a deep breath, and thinking, 'nope. None of this is real.'
I always had doubts and every now and then even thought that grownups were in cahoots by pretending to believe unintelligible garbage.
@@Nocturnalux Your honesty rings very close to many people who have gone through this experience or is going through it right now. So, for me, this heartfelt anecdote is very appreciated.
It's telling how the illusion of knowledge can be harmful to others. One reason I really enjoy talks with others who have overcome this, is it brings light to these kinds of problems.
Do you have any kind of advice for others who are currently in the same position you where in?
By the way, I hope that you understand that being the best you that you can be is to allow yourself to enjoy the things that you love to do despite your own walls. Because, ultimately happiness is what I would like to see you get out of lifes experience.
Im from sweden and norway and most of us are atheists and the foundation of the society is a separation between faith and society.
Politicians dont even talk about god, not even the ones who believe. 😂 If they would, everyone would laugh.
Our society is based on humanism and conversations. And its false that our society is taken over by muslims. Thats a misconception and false. We have freedom of religion so they are allowed to practise their religion, and of course we have religious fundamentalists but religious views are not influencing politics. We have a feminist government.
You got proof of this? Who would know better what is going on in their country someone who lives in it or someone who lives in another continent?
wanderinglord2 I have lived in Sweden and Norway my entire life 😂
Fidus Achates lol no not a chance. I have many Muslim friends and they hate fundamentalists. I’m not saying they don’t exist but they don’t have a chance to influence Swedish society. Don’t underestimate Swedish feminists 😂 men and women are feminists here.
wanderinglord2 and I currently live in Gothenburg Sweden 🇸🇪
His argument is that because a baby can breathe, eat, poop, sometimes walk, needs external help or it will die, etc., but it can't drive a motorcycle. It grows to adulthood, it can drive a motorcycle but it still needs to be taken care of like a baby.😂 Any adult that needs to be taken care of like a baby, shouldn't be driving a motorcycle.
Let's just say for the sake of argument that Darrel is good at gardening. I notice that Darrel has a mustache. Therefore I conclude that Darrel is good at gardening because he has a mustache, and if I were the manager of a landscaping business I would be hesitant to employ anybody who didn't have one. Right, Jake?
Caller: "There was no country that was founded by atheists"
Same Caller: "There was no successful country without a religion"
How do we know that the successful countries are successful because of religion if we do not have an unsuccessful country that was founded by atheists? Even if we had one, it is not enough proof of his claim. Correlation and causality are different things.
Also the scandinavic countries are the most atheist states in the world. And they are doing better than every other state imo.