Use the Bible to prove itself | Jonathan - AZ | Talk Heathen 03.42
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Talk Heathen 03.42 for October 20, 2019 with Vi La Bianca & Matt Dillahunty.
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Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
Talk Heathen is filmed in front of a live studio audience every week at the Freethought Library of the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop & support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing & friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of government-religion separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists & to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
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My greatest shame in life is that I spent 20 years of my life believing this crap before I woke up.
You must really be living dull for that to be your greatest shame.
Justsayin
@John Daedalus I was christian for decades. But I was particularly good at it, in that I created bible study material, lesson plans for classes, was able to refer to a verse for any occasion. I believed hard core, and it showed.
It took several years to step away from that once I realized I didn’t believe.
I’m not ashamed, though, because like you say, it was how I was raised, indoctrinated, how I surrounded myself, the people and churches.
I can’t even blame my parents or anyone for bringing me up in that life, they were in the same boat as I was.
It’s not for everyone to be able to overcome the fear of admitting unbelief. There are many who say they believe, but don’t, and they continue to go through the motions simply out of fear.
Things I am ashamed of generally involve stupidly doing something I knew would hurt someone, or not taking action when I knew it would help.
Those are regrettable, for sure.
@Amanda Huginkiss, you are not alone in that. many including myself believed it for over 20 years until for whatever reason we decided to look into the claims in that book and not just use the bible as the source.
I'm sure you're a better person now..No drug porn or alcohol abuse..All praise to the flying Spaghetti monster..
And doesn’t it feel so good, just living your best life, minding your own business and being kind for no reason but to be nice 👍🏼
If god exists, then he's trying really hard not to be found and I think we should respect that.
Yeah man, respect his boundaries :-)
Hahaha imagine how much it sucks to be God. You can’t even sleep because all these people keep praying to you asking for help on math tests they didn’t study for etc.
Yeah man, would you want to show your face because of all the death in your name? I'd be a tad embarrassed too.
But ... but he's going to blame us for not knowing he exists ..
Just to be clear, I am making a joking statement there. ^
Neon Shadow no, that’s the funny part. See WE think he will punish us that’s why we keep stalking him
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!” George Carlin
larry sterback 🤣🤣🤣
According to what atheists say
They need/want proof of God's existence (whatever that means)
According to use to be atheists
(Converted atheists)
They don't need/have to have anymore proof that God does exist
Don't believe everything you read
I believe every paycheck I receive when I read the dollar amount.
So don't tell me don't believe everything you read.
@Computer User you can't see God face to face and live
Moses said the same thing
God said to Moses, you can't see my face, but I will show you my backside.......
Moses didn't see God's face, but he did see his backside
He knew God had been there.
@Computer User do you think what you believe about God is going to thwart God?????
I remember when I was a kid
My mother always told me
Don't touch the stove.
She didn't tell me why
She just told me don't touch the stove.
Many many yrs later(when I grew up)
I asked her about that
And she did remember
She told me not to touch the stove
To see if I would do as I was told.
That was the only reason
To obey her.
To you and others that sounds stupid
But to her she meant what she said.
@Computer User this God loved you from Calvary.
This God knew you way before you were on your parents mind.
I can turn Wine 🍷 into Pee 🙏
It's a miracle! Oncor. !
I can turn Wine to water. but scientifically.
What about BEER?
I can walk on water! Only if it is frozen.
But is it vintage pee?
God: "Adam, that is Eve, you are to love her forever and always"
Adam: "Okay, but who is that?"
God: "Oh that's Kieth Richards, he was here when i got here"
Haha! Good one.
That was Betty White, you heathen!
That was soooo funny! Keith Richards! Ha ha ha!!!!
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but Kieth Richards will endure forver.
@Kali Southpaw That was a good one! 😂😂😂😂😂
“The plural of anecdote is not data”. Genius move... Leister
Late to the Game t
It is though? Data is literally a collection and of observations. Anecdotes are often incomplete data, chosen with biais, but it’s still data.
@@LL-wj6yw Anecdotes are subjective.. Data is objective
@@LL-wj6yw not even close.
@@IslanderJerYT It's still data, just not sufficient.
ABC's of the bible
A: accept jesus
B: believe in gawd
C: circular reasoning
Without God, you cant know if your senses are working properly, you use your senses to check your senses, that is circular reasoning.
@@jesussaves2131 you just gave a circular reasoning....what a moron😂😂
The bible is true because it says so right there in the bible.
@@abhikchattopadhyay9080 you are quite right sir
Ace X we both have circular reasoning, with God it is a virtuous circle, without God it is a vicious circle. Unless you are claiming you dont use you reasoning to check your reasoning.
Matt's logic and ability to present an argument are awesome.
The marathon of theist hearing sound objections to his argument, going "yeah" then brushing it off and going on
So, in other words, a conversation with a theist.
But at least he is listening and trying to understand. If he continues to be honest with himself he will find the truth.
That's exactly the way the delusional mind works .
I've had 25 years of this and it got boring in about the first five or six minutes. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing.
at least they are better than flat earthers
4:03 "I'm not actually trying to make an argument for the truth..."
Tell us something we don't already know.
Lol I read your comment the exact time he said that 😂😆
@@nextpersona4802 that prove supernatural. .. then God exists. .lol
@@arimfshapiro7907 - more power to him! religion is poison to the mind.
@@arimfshapiro7907 He's gone soft!
@@osmosis321 Not at all. He hung up on 3 callers in a span of 2 minutes this week.
Matt touched on this. The horror of realising that there are no good reasons for accepting theistic claims is just too much for some people. Because the next step is to accept all the time and money spent and the authority signed over to god's earthly representatives will overwhelm him. It really is horrific.
when a person listens to false religion it's like being coned by the cunning of a clever prostitute. How ever if a person is to do what Jesus Christ did and that is preach about his kingdom it will cost money to do it world-wide. All the churches do is take its members money and do nothing to spread the good news around.
Don't think for a minute that to preach the good news of the kingdom world wide is done without money. The motivation is peoples lives. Knowing the truth and keeping it to ourselves makes us blood guilty/
So true!
@@ronhansen8471 In that case, Uganda's new anti gay legislation is on your shoulders, Bud. You and the wealthy American Christian Fascists who are supporting anti gay legislators there.
Sunk cost fallacy, mixed with the sunk cost being partially or wholly your own identity and ego
"The truth has nothing to fear from inquiry" I like that a lot. New favorite quote.
What is your definition of truth?
@@crosstolerance conformity with reality. (Unless the context is maths, when it becomes more abstract...)
There was a time, when i was a kid that religious folks accepted actual science, and just left their religious beliefs in the realm of faith. Growing up Catholic, and going to Catholic school, teachers accepted ALL secular science and history, and my religious classes claimed Catholicism was true due to faith. Simple as that. Even though i was an atheist even back then, i could at least respect that they were being intellectually honest.
Partially "intellectually honesty" and completely "morally dishonest".
@@insanetester1015 -- Fair enough. But that's another conversation. I'm just saying that admitting you are suspending rational thought, instead of trying to twist it into pseudo-science is a better course, intellectually.
Umm...no they never. Especially the Catholic church😅
Hi I to came through a similar upbringing....... but are we actually doing anyone any favours by being tolerant of others beliefs! For example if a child was playing with a loaded gun believing it to be a toy, you would call out that belief and stop them. Adults with religion are no better than children, they don't know enough to see religion as a bull shit scam...so do not we have an obligation to call out their beliefs before they get used to make laws or actions that injure people?
I certainly feel those of us in society with the IQ to see things others don't have an obligation to help those less fortunate.....for the collective good of society.
@trekkiejunk6322 I also attended Catholic school for 12 years. They did such a fine job educating us that it was very difficult to accept the nonsense they taught in religion class, which was just half an hour on Friday. Even as children, I didn't know anybody who actually believed the fairy tales. 50 years later, nearly all of my old school chums are atheists, though some remain cultural Catholics for their parents' sake and Wednesday bingo. Of course, the pedo mill in Vatican City still claims all of us as members, because we were baptized as infants, and it is impossible to opt out.
And STILL undisputed champion of hide and seek: God.
He sure didn't play hide & seek the day I did 4 hits of acid! LMAO!!!
How about undisputed champion of always being a no-show
@Chucku Farley So.... you're saying and STILL undisputed champion of hide and seek: God.
@Stealth Mode Stealth, your statement is an _Argument From Incredulity._ (Something I learned long ago, probably from watching these videos!)
To clarify, you're asserting that a proposition must be false because it contradicts your personal expectations or beliefs, or is difficult to imagine. You decided that something could not possibly happen, because you cannot personally understand HOW it could happen.
It's a logical fallacy.
_I don't know... therefore... GOD!_ is not the way to arrive at a conclusion.
Furthermore, "God" is never an answer to anything. All it does is appeal to one mystery with an even bigger mystery. Who designed the designer, for example? And then who designed _that_ designer, ad infinitum? How did your god do it? Or was it not the god you worship?
We should get God a belt, to prove that he's the undisputed champion.
But oh wait....where would he put the belt and how would we hand him the belt?
Theism is absurd.
"I found Jesus."
"Oh, yeah?"
"It turns out he's Chinese."
"Really?!"
"Yep. His name's Jesus Hong. He says he has no idea where people are getting 'Christ'".
A Chinese guy goes to the optometrist.
Eye Doctor: "It looks like you have a cataract."
Chinese guy: "No, I have a Rincoln Continental."
From the wiki article of the Taiping rebellion. "Led by Hong Xiuquan, the self-proclaimed brother of Jesus Christ, the goals of the Taipings were religious, nationalist, and political in nature."
Jesus wasn't Chinese, his little brother was though.
So that's why it's called Hong Kong. I always wondered about that 🤣
Family guy ?
Jesus. *H.* Christ
Every once in a while a caller is respectful enough and open minded enough that Matt decides it's warranted to REALLY dig deep... And these fantastic discussions emerge... You really get a deeper look into how he thinks and feels about things... And if you're me, you go ... Wow, I will never be on that level... Lol
Right?. Every time for me goddam it😂
Jonathan is still a believer after watching the show for 10 freakin years? What? Matt's logic is falling on deaf ears.
It happens
Matt is intelligent, like many Autistics. He just is not very believable when confronted by an intelligent religious person
@@markclark2288 Where is your proof that Matt is autistic? Oh wait, you don't need actual proof to believe something do you?
Also, "Intelligent religious person" qualifies as an oxymoron in most cases. LOL!
@@markclark2288 you had me at "Matt is intelligent" everything after that just makes you look asenine.
Mark Clark
Either way u dont need to be inteligent to be a religious or an atheist. U just need a minimal understanding
Matt goes through a methodical, logical, clear explanation of why Jonathan can't use the bible to prove the bible.
Jonathan answers several times, beginning either with "right" or "yeah", and then (as if he never paid any attention to what Matt said) just plunges forward with "but...". Annoying and frustrating.
Hes an idiot.
he has been indoctrinated and is afraid to say ...the buybull isn't real...or god is fake
@@sheezamann2724 thats a good point...they are terrified that questioning the bible god will bring wrath...if thats true we would expect all athiests to be both poor and in poor health and all believers healthy and rich...sadly they cant be reached anymore than pulling a 7 year old aside and informing him theres no santa cause..
He listens in a deaf kind of way.
He basically ignores everything that's said and simply waits his turn to spout more of his nonsense.
Some of these callers if not all, are straw men. You don't believe the Bible because the Bible tells you to. You believe because you have the Holy Ghost in you and the words of God are bread for the soul. Gods preserved words in english, the King James Bible. Jesus Christ the living word of God.
How can you watch this show for 10 years and not abandon these silly beliefs?!!! Wow that's crazy took me 2 months
Supernatural is not silly, we all know that
@@markclark2288 Idk, I couldn't watch it past the 2nd season
@@PronatorTendon Yeah that show is kinda oversaturated.
@@DiamondSan7 Ya when people who previously died started coming back to life and flipping from good to evil or vice versa, too much
@@markclark2288 Was it the first or second time they killed Hitler that you made that conclusion?
"Skepticism is rationality." That's it, right there.
I’m not really going to listen to what you’re saying I’m just going wait till you’re done talking then tap dance around your objections. I’m so invested in my beliefs that I am unwilling to give up on them.
jmaniak1 That’s because the callers talking are always chatting shit, the main theme being the Bible proves the Bible is true, these callers are perhaps the dumbest people in America.
@@markdavids2511 But on a positive note, the percentage of us that no longer or never did fall for that silliness is growing. I guess these conversations kind of intrigue me because I never understood how anybody could be convinced.
Andrew Fairfax I’m English you dumb fuck, the difference between the UK & the US is religion has no political clout in the U.K not including the north of Ireland,unlike America,
Arrogance + Ignorance = American
@Warstar As long as the majority keep being dumb and everybody keeps pointing fingers, the status quo remains.
every time I see Matt on Talk Heathen, I feel like I'm watching "Talk Atheist" or "The Heathen Experience". X3
@Ribeye Robert D hot sibling show action!
The same hosts on seperate shows claiming their opinions/thoughts on a subject. Using their logic against them disproves their accountability/beliefs. The fact that the Bible is flaud is merely their aspect of reality
@@jizzaymz not entirely sure what this has to do with the joke, but sure! opinion noted.
@@jizzaymz no this is demonstrable. There are many flaws in the reasoning and claims of the Bible
Matt is brilliant enlightener, teacher. I always get enlightened and learn from his vast ocean of knowledge. Love him and his awesome crew
How can these people be so blinded by completely disregarding anything which contradicts their "beliefs". It's so frustrating
Because they have chosen to believe the lie. Once you make that CHOICE anyone can convince you to commit religious atrocities.
@@MrKit9 It's called confirmation bias. Look it up.
I like this caller. He’s polite and doesn’t get hostile. He’s exposing himself to different beliefs (or lack thereof)
Usually it's Matt that gets hostile. Generally , he's a dick whether he's right or wrong!
@@jtstar10 oh and you are a saint, who also has spoken to theist for decades? and defending his position? I think I already know, whos the real dick ::D
I gotta admit Matt does seem to be getting a little more snappy as time goes on. Believe me, I can understand why, but even watching as an atheist I still find it a bit bullish at times.
@@alexritchie4586 dont you find it odd that his being more snappy correlates with more people saying "i wanted to talk to matt, but hes too angry, he abuses the mute button..."
I get pissed everytime someone says that shit and im not even on the show
Well, let's agree we disagree. This Jonathan guy declared he had been watching this channel for decades, and he is still a believer. That's says a lot of him too. He still trying to "fight" any skeptical & scientific point of view that does not match his beliefs. That does not make him a likable person to me at all. The words that come to mind are "ignorant", "incapable of processing scientific process", "harcore believer". The fact that he seems polite-unhostile seems then to be just a ruse, a disguise of his real intents : smash Science and non-believers.
I know Matt has discussed these topics endlessly, but this show presents them in a clear, virtually college-level format of information. This is one of the best "keepers" of this kind of discussion.
A story book like the Bible is not proof of anything other than it's a story book.
Most of it is based on astrology as some have shown . Like the part where jesus said to his deciples to look for the man with the pitcher of water,
well that is the zodiac sign for Aquarius.
A World Gone Totally Insane Are you sane?
@@joesmoke9624 Look at it logically, nothing in "The Bible" has been proven true, and there are tons of religions. Why is yours true? Keep watching the atheist experience and try to fight through your childhood of indoctrination.
ibrudiiv I can tell you've not been educated beyond 5th grade 🙄 Where did I say im religious or I have been indoctrinated. You come from the Ego/Conditioned mind which is indoctrination in itself sad to say
@@joesmoke9624 Ironic how you're asking others if they're sane.
I'm getting smarter just by looking at these guys. And now when I start to listen, I turned a genius.
Seriously these guys are so sharp and intelligent
You need to get out of middle school
Well at least you're humble about it
Kings Cross station is a real place in London, hence Harry Potter is 100% true
Checkmate, apotterists!
Maybe so but unfortunately for Harry, he's going to burn in hell for eternity for practicing witchcraft. Let's see him wave his little wand around and cast spells when his entire body is being devoured by hellfire only for it to regenerate just to be burnt off again his eyeballs boiling from the inside untill they burst only to be regenerated and boil and burst again and that cycle continues for eternity. I hope Harry repents and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as his savior. Checkmate
@@worldchronicles4818 is this sarcasm?
@@worldchronicles4818 this can only be sarcasm
@@worldchronicles4818 Burning for eternity is such a dumb idea. All I can say is I will get used to it by day 3. And then it will be such a joy ride.
If the god of the bible had been portrayed as a king instead of a God , he would be remembered as the most evil, mass murdering, tyrannical dictator of all time! Christians give the bible god a free pass because, they say, he is god the creator. I don't see the difference whether man or god. If his actions were evil or immoral, as the bible states, then he'd be just as guilty of being evil as any human committing the same deeds.
I love how it total god kills billions of people in the bible, and satan the ‘evil bad guy’ kills like 4 or something! Haha
@@norswil8763 with gods consent of course.
@@norswil8763 : Not billions! Given the Flood took place only 1600 years after Creation, it can only have been a couple of hundred million.
(Actually Answers in Genesis claimed it could have been billions, given the much longer life spans people had before the flood happened. Doyy.)
Salkafar, yeah you're right, yahweh only murders 2.5 million people. That's including all the tribe genocides and the random spurts of rage where he just kills people for trivial reasons eg. People looking at the arc of the covenant, 42 children for calling a guy bald, etc, etc.
...but in saying that how many times has this god _actually_ genocided the earth? He seems pretty violent and he's obviously a crumby creator, who knows how many stuff ups he's had to slaughter.
@ Oh well that's okay, that he only killed a couple of million people. Why would you get information from"answers in genesis" anyway, they have the worst track record for telling the truth. "Answers in genesis" should have the motto, "why let a little thing like the truth get in the way of a good story". That about sums that scamming organisation up.
The Lord works in mysterious ways...they are so mysterious even he can't understand them.
Random guy in the year 3000 - "Wow people still believed the earth was flat in 2019."
anyone else find that haunting?
No, because there'll always be idiots.
Random guy won’t exist in year 3000.
Some people will probably still believe that the earth is flat in the year 3000.
Humans will always be delusional creatures.
My favorite response: “if you’re not arguing for validity of existing and you’re not arguing for divinity, then why would we care” Beautiful, my thoughts exactly, this guy is confused and totally misses the point. He’s just arguing to argue. Astounding.
When I was a kid I believed the story of the person at KFC who got served a Kentucky Fried Rat instead. I believed the story of the babysitter who got stoned and put the baby in the oven. I believed the story of THE HOOK. I believed the story about spider eggs in Bubble Yum. I believed the story of the older couple who died in a car accident because they thought their newfangled "cruise control" feature meant "autopilot." I believed the story that earwigs get inside people's brains and lay eggs. I believed there was poison gas inside tennis balls and acid inside golf balls. Then I grew up. This guy needs to do so as well.
gspendlove don’t forget The Smurfs kidnapping children
@HearthCricket Let me speculate here...you heard those stories from a friend who heard them from a friend whose cousin's mother knew the family involved...right? No disrespect intended, but when I discuss urban legends with people, someone always tells me "That one really happened in the town next to mine!" But a U of U professor named Jan Harold Brunvand is the foremost researcher on subject, and he writes in his books that every time he's tried to chase down the source of any particular legend, he's hit a dead end. It seems the sources of these stories passed from mouth to ear are nothing more than rumour. Even newspaper accounts can't be trusted, because, as you know, they don't always print the truth. They print what people are claiming as truth. So i take all urban legends with a pound of salt. They're all good fun as long as you don't believe a word.
@@shirleydeebonilla6712 Don't you know that one Smurfberry can power your school for a whole year? We need that energy, so sacrifices have to be made. If they snatch a few kids up now and then and do God knows what to them, that's just a price we have to be willing to pay. 😁
That's why 1 Corinthians 13:11 is my favorite verse - *When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.*
Unfortunately, most people never grew up or are afraid to grow up.
gspendlove . Even though I believe we are on the same side. You need to be careful about throwing out actual facts. As an older person I clearly remember the entire news/police Account of two teenage girls Who got out of their minds on drugs and put a baby in the oven. I can detail facts of the story. They told the police that somebody broke in and did that to the baby they even smashed a window to back up their story. However the detective told them that seeing the broken glass was on the outside of the house the window had to be broken from the inside. So yeah it was very much a true story. Horrible but true. Anyway I’m still glad that you did wake up.
When you passed grade school without understanding what a scientific theory is...
That I hate too.
When they are all home schooled... What do you expected? US allows this. It's no surprise that their education system is at the level of third world country.
@@insanetester1015 yeah I was homeschooled and didnt learn the scientific method until last year. I'm 17
Her voice is exceptionally pleasant.
Vinnie The Poop asmr voice for sure!
skeptic: I need evidence
rational: This is enough evidence
cynicism: I doubt there is evidence
Irrational: I reject the evidence
“People believe you when you tell them they had a dream, therefore when the Bible says it’s true it must be right” -my school teacher
13 billion believers though...think about that
@@markclark2288 Does the amount of believers make something true? How about the tens of billions of humans that believed the earth was flat?
@@SpicyCurrey shhhhh... your logic is not welcome here 😉
@@markclark2288 Right. . .so all those people who believe in Islam, or Buddha, or Voodoo, or Mormonism, or scientology. . .they're a lot of people, right? Guess all religions are true! Makes perfect sense. I think Terry Pratchett covered this topic.
He's learned so much from watching this show for ten years...that he doesn't know what a theory is, doesn't know what reasonable is, doesn't know what the standards of evidence are, doesn't know what likelihood is..........
greyeyed123 yeah, I kind of doubt he has watched the show as long as he claims to.
Evidence for God is huge. No question
@John Digsby Good questions. I will explain. Evidence must be verifiable, reproducible, falsifiable, and predictive. The standards of evidence for gravity is that we can demonstrate it (I drop something and it falls at a specific rate). I can have someone observe my experiment and verify my observations. I can then have them reproduce my observations by dropping things themselves. I can invite everyone to drop things and record their findings...which all agree that all things fall at 9.8 m/s². We can then observe exceptions, such as that caused by air resistance, and hypothesize that if we dropped a hammer and a feather on the moon, they would fall at the same rate in relation to lunar gravity. Then when we go to the moon, Apollo 15 can conduct this very famous experiment on the moon, without an atmosphere, to demonstrate it (as we already had done on earth in vacuum chambers anyway). All of these experiments are falsifiable, because it is possible in principle that the results could have been different than they were, but none were. And it is predictive because we can predict that future results will be the same. And when they are not, such as with the perihelion of Mercury, we endeavor to find verifiable, reproducible, falsifiable, and predictive evidence that explains it. And we did.
Your comment about the microscope indicates you do not understand how standards of evidence work.
You also do not seem to understand what "reasonable" means, which is scary. But nice drive-by comment.
If there were no question, there would be no question. Apparently there is a question because you simply make the claim and run away.
Also can't tell the difference between skepticism and cynicism, rationality and irrationally, and worst of all, blindly accepts claims made in a biased ancient little golden book from the superstitious laden dark ages as if it is equally meritorious to historical accounts of World War II, even though the time difference is easily 1800+ years. In a word..dipshit!!
“The plural of anecdote isn’t data” Brilliant
Matt is the ultimate debater 😎👍
He's the MasterDebater.
Ultimate fool
That’s why his nickname is the masterbater
Perfectly handled call. Props to the theist for being intelligent enough to almost grasp Matt's reasoning.
I thought he was incredibly polite.
Thank you. I have to laugh at most of the comments because they assume so much about me and couldn’t be more wrong, but I do appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt.
I do care about what’s true. I’m merely convinced that the evidence leads to Christianity being true.
timothy clancy
Did you misquote me on accident?
I specifically said “I do care about what is true”.
Props to the theist? He's been watching the show for 10 f'n years and he still believes in the bible.
Trying to say that the fact that we "believe" history books and thus should believe religious books as well is nonsense. For example, I don't really care if Caesar actually existed. Until someone tries to make me behave a certain way based on something Caesar did or said, or not give me a job because I don't believe he existed, I will remain that way. We have lots of writings on Caesar and what he did but none say he walked on water or performed miracles. So not an extraordinary claim like the story of jebus.
History books, especially those from antiquity are believed with just as much faith as any Bible believing Christian believes the Bible. In other words, unless you witnessed the event in question then you have to trust in the author that they are telling you the truth, aka having faith. There is no doubt that Jerusalem is real Jericho is real, Babylon is real. The temple of Solomon was real and the Jewish people are real. Jesus is real, He was crucified, died and rose from the dead 3 days later and lives to this very day, and will live for eternity.
@@worldchronicles4818
"History books, especially those from antiquity are believed with just as much faith as any Bible believing Christian believes the Bible."
No, history books are being studied, critiqued, compared. Historians, archeologists are looking for materialist proofs etc...
No one "believes" in history books.
@@worldchronicles4818 no one believes in history books like the Bible . People study it and try to prove if it is right and they have proven or disproven a lot of it by studying it and comparing it to other writings and what historical sites tell us but nice try snowflake
"All the Gospels, after having run closely together in their accounts of the trial and execution, diverge markedly when they come to the circumstance of the Resurrection. It's impossible to fit their accounts together into a single coherent scheme." - A. E. Harvey, Christian scholar
I have learned a great deal over the last decade from watching you and reading atheist and apologist texts. I have learned concepts and meanings of words and ideas. I know so much more than I knew at the time I formalised my conclusions 10 years ago and I have not changed my mind about the supernatural at all. Learning in action.
Yeah and the Harry Potter novels proves the existence of dementors!
Kelvin Waters keep reading Harry Potter then
@@joesmoke9624 why? there are so many fiction available why settle on just one?
Kelvin Waters Hi Kelvin, ok, but I read none.
Rowling admitted it was fiction
Well in the near future. This will become historical facts.
Vi is a great host!
I once had a discussion on Quora with a Muslim using the same kind of circular reasoning. He was making the claim that Moses and Jesus were Muslims, using a quote from the Quran to back up his argument. I asked him why I, a Christian, should accept what the Quran says over the New Testament and Jewish Tanakh says. He responded with another quote from the Tanakh. I couldn't make him understand that he can't convince a non-Muslim of the supremacy of the Quran by only using passages from the Quran. I eventually had to give up and allow to think he won the argument, as there is no arguing with someone who accepts circular reasoning as a valid argument.
It's so nice to see a respectful and honest theist for a change. He will get there when he recognizes the reasons for his inability to require the same evidence for god as he does for every other situation in his life. Every time a theist discards their "belief", an angel loses its wings! :)
This is scary I'm starting to doubt if Harry even lived in a cupboard under the stairs, never mind that he went to Hogwarts.
+
Graham Reeve
NOOOOOOO..... Do not go down that path. The Evil VoldeMatt has blinded you to the truth as written by our lord J. K. Rowling.
If you ever feel uncertain just ask - What would J K do?
Don't listen to those Hogwarts Haters. Harry Potter is far more moral and decent than anyone in the Bible including the christian god.
I can't believe people actually think I might really doubt Harry. My daughter would Avada Kedavra me if she so much as suspected it.
Graham Reeve 🤣
The abused kid part is true. The magic stuff is just his psychological refuge.
Shit-disturbing rabbi part? Maybe true. Magic parts? Are ya kidding me?
It really doesn't have to be this complicated.
Q - Are there people in the world that are seeking to convince us of things that are not true? (Either through deliberate deception or honest mistake)
A - if Yes - then scepticism should be our default position.
A - if no...... then I have a bridge to sell you.
Q - should personal testimony alone be sufficient to convince us of any position whatsoever?
A - if no.... congratulations! you recognise that people can potentially be dishonest and or sincerely mistaken about the cause and meaning of their own experience.
A if yes ... congratulations on your simultaneous conversion to Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, mormonism, Islam, Scientology, Catholicism, protestantism and your new found belief in fairies, psychic healing, Alien abductions, homoeopathic remedies, teleportation, past life experiences, transmutation etc.
Conclusion - if you are sceptical of any of the above listed categories you should be sceptical of all of them.
My goodness you guys are doing a great job and wonderful public service. Big thanks from me.
26:52 Matt is so spot on about people lowering their standards of evidence when it comes to religion. The caller has a higher standard of evidence when it comes to everything EXCEPT Jesus. There’s a bias there and it’s not hard to understand why that may be the case. Fear of death, fear of changing world view, etc.
I love the phrase used by so may callers, “I hear what you say” when what they really mean is “I haven’t listened to a word you’ve said” or a may have bit it’s been completely disregarded because i don’t understand or like it because it doesn’t fit with my view etc etc.
“Yeah, I hear what you’re saying, but....” Jonathan took every opportunity not to talk because he didn’t know what to say.
Belief is accepting understanding that YOU may not understand. Faith is believing what which cannot be proved.
Jon: "iVe bEeN lIsTeNiNg To AXP fOr TeN yEaRs."
Also Jon: *doesn't understand skepticism or basic standards of evidence, and still believes in magic sky daddy*
Sure, Jon.
“Listening for ten years” likely doesn’t mean listening to everything the channel has put out over the past ten years, but rather “I first heard something from here ten years ago and occasionally hear something from it since then”.
1000 museums on biblical artifacts shows basic standards of evidence for the Bible. It is a slam dunk that Bible was true
@@markclark2288 what? At best that's relatively ignorant and at worst a blatant lie. There's some artifacts corroborating some parts of the bible, but also a bunch of artifacts and research that clearly contradicts much of the bible, and definitely more of the latter.
Perhaps he muted the atheists and only listened to callers’ unfounded claims 🤷
and Ironically, he's worshiping the wrong imaginary god. If he thinks in terms of a sky father he needs to worship Zu - Pater (the origin of Jupiter). Get on with sacrificing those pigeons.
"Why how the then seven if an but?"
-Chris Massey
🤔.............................The answer is green🧐
“Omar did consumeth a bucket full of methamphetamine and was feeble-spirited and shit-faced in the eyes of the Lord.”
@Timbales, A C, et. al. : Aye! Didst he all that, therefore performeth the doing of it, yea, verily, I say this unto you, none shall eateth the bread cooked with dung unless the water floweth truly through the breakfront. R'Amen!
42
Are you guys making this stuff up or is it from something? If you're making it up, it's hilarious! 😂
I have a feeling this guy is gonna become an Atheist soon. I remember being in this stage where I was trying so hard to confirm my beliefs, but I had just done too much research to continue believing in god.
It's exactly what Matt himself did. He was studying to be a preacher for many years, prior to seeing the light!
Same thing happened to me. I had a prophecy from a prophet that I was going to become a preacher, so I started studying the Bible in order to be ready for when that happened. Oh boy!! What I learned completely changed my world.
I believe that most Christians are still Christians because they don't study their religion.
After watching literally hundreds of broadcasts of TH and Axp, I think Jonathan was the most intellectually HONEST theist I've ever heard. I was so interested in how he was approaching the question of his own conclusions. I really wanted to hear more of what he has to say ... and ask. I thought Vi had a good grip on the essence of the conversation. I noticed a similarity with Tracie Harris in her ability to communicate/connect with Jonathan. I think Matt made some excellent points in a way that can be genuinely impactful and, I felt very comfortable with Vi's skills and empathy with an honest and sincere caller. She put me at ease. This was one of the best calls I've ever heard. I'll be looking for episodes I may have missed, between this one and now, at the time of this writing.
"The plural of anecdote is not data" = Beast
We know a lot about antient Egypt and Rome. We know so much because they kept great records and many survived to the modern era. There are extraordinary claims made in both old and new testaments, things that people would have taken note of at the very least. Yet there is NOTHING!!!! None of the extraordinary events or claims in the testaments where recorded. I think that is very telling.
Why they want people to believe and have faith. Because they have nothing.
I've been saying that same thing. If the Roman's executed somebody and they came back to life, wouldn't that have been a huge thing? Why wasn't that documented all over the known world? Why only in one book written how long after the fact?
The Walking Dead event in Jerusalem should have been a big thing as well, but nope, only Matthew mentions it.
@@SgtD85 Exactly. So many people refuse to accept this. "believe" and "faith" are not only useless, but extremely harmful.
"I see what you're saying (no I don't!!)"
That was a very civil conversation....was really enjoyable
That was the best explanation of implicit bias that I've ever heard. Good one, Vi.
Again, rock solid rationality and reason from Matt.
I own a book in my library about flying saucer sightings.
It has photographs of flying saucers. All black and white grainy photos.
One of them has an arrow pointing to the flying saucer in a landscape.
My 5 year old son remarked, sceptically, "Somebody drew that arrow ! "
Or the Eons old conflict between the saucer-ship aliens and the arrow-ship aliens...has reached the skies--and cows--of Earth.
@@brucebaker810
And if it wasn't for the arrow, we wouldn't spot the flying saucer
@@tedgrant2 Or the Saucer Folk cleverly got the perfidious Arrow People to uncloak and reveal themselves to us.
Perspective.
Thanks for this. Very clear demolition of his arguments.
Excellent conversation. Matt and Vi handled it very well but the caller was reasonable and responsive and honest. Nice work.
But I don't think the caller is listening
Presuppositionalism has eliminated all fictional books!!! .. now all books are TRUE!!!
My religion is now the creed of the Mandalorian. "This is the way." And baby Yoda is real, I saw him the other day.
Madisyn Drake actually 500 eye witness saw him just go ask them!
I won’t tell you who they are though just the city the live in.
weapons are my religion.
Mandalorians are actually really cool.
They're not sexists, racists or specists. If you are a badass warrior, proofing yourself worthy, they'll accept you as equal and as family no matter your origin, species, gender or belief. Mandalorians are proud of and loyal and respectful to one another.
What counts are your skills and your honor as a warrior of Manda'lor.
When two mandalorians marry, they accept each other as equal and as soul mates - ready to protect each other unconditionally with their life.
@@FeuerblutRM this is the way
I like Jonathan. He's open and receptive and attempting to be skeptical. And my name is Jonathan. Be like Jonathan.
Intelligence: the ability to learn, understand and deal with change.
"Religion is an IQ test by definition."- Aaron Kuntze
The lower your IQ is the more conservative you tend to be.
"I'm not here to say anything like, "I know alien abductions happen." I just, I wouldn't do that, because that's monumentally arrogant, I think. I happen to believe it because the arguments that I've spent 10 years, reading about and learning about, and the vast amount I've learned from the show, uh, has, has just lead me to the conclusion that, In my mind, the way that I use my epistemology, or whatever. It has lead me to the belief that this is more probably true." And that, is why I believe in alien abductions.
The jewish stories "foretelling" Jesus are even more problematic because they had access to those stories at the time, but still couldn't write their fan fiction to fit with the canon.
Love the respect between the two sides.
Can I just say thank you to Jonathan for being civil.
I always try to be. 👍
Just got an ad saying that the Genesis creation story perfectly matches the big bang theory because background radiation came before the sun, and after that man came into existence. 😂
Jonathan has exceeded the previous world record of using the word "attestation" on an atheist show. Congrats Jonathan!
yespub
Whoo hoo! What did I win? 😀
20:38 - "I don't believe that you have a hundred dollars in your wallet"
(Opens wallet, pulls out $100 to show)
"What's that?"
"It's a hundred dollars."
"Yeah, and it's not in your wallet, is it?"
Jonathan makes sense to me, then again I was the inspiration for Rev jim on taxi.
One of the things students of history should learn is to identify the biases and question the accuracy of any source.
This is actually basic requirements for historians . History is a science, and its tools are basically the ones of science.
@@chefchaudard3580
" History is a science, and its tools are basically the ones of science."
- You must not ever heard a "historian" talk, or watch an "History" documentary (and no, I'm not referring to the History Channel). Most of History is pseudo-history and certainly not a "science". One the most hilarious statements made a "Historian" in recent times was that Guy Fawkes was "freedom fighter". A historian accredited with a famous and very credible British University. There are so many falsehoods spew out by "Historians" about things that happened during my lifetime, that your claim is categorically false!
@@insanetester1015 a documentary is not how History is made, and their quality varies between bad and... better. Historians write books, that are peer reviewed, as it is common practice in science. As such, historians propose hypothesis, backup with evidences, that are accepted, or not if they are not convincing or contradicted. Any hypothesis or major theory can be reviewed if new data are found. As in everything in life, we must find the proper books, talks, documentaries if we want to have proper information on a subject, using critical thinking.
My *observation* (and personal opinion) is that this is one of your best and most informative shows. My *hypothesis* is based on having watched hundreds of your shows before, which I consider to be *evidence*. At this point, I surrender my hypothesis to *peer review*.
If other viewers agree and fail to disprove that this is one of your best shows (I know, subjective opinion, but we'll work with what we have) then the *theory* is that this is, indeed, one of your best and most informative shows!
Do I have that reasonable correct, Matt? Vi?
Kris Aaron Not is everything is an illusion.
what a great conversation ...
Jonathan seems to try to find his path through this hell
This caller was very respectful and at least attempting to be logical and understanding. Wish we had more Christians like that.
If the Abrahamic god of the bible exists, why do we have to go back 2000+ years to substantiate it?
It should be as clear today as it would have been back then.
This "god" should be manifested clearly today with all the same things he/she/it did back then.
Enough said.
God is still working today, but it is not easy to see when He is not in your life and you are not in tune with what He is doing.
@@andyj3624
"God is still working today, but it is not easy to see when He is not in your life and you are not in tune with what He is doing."
- Dear, "god" would be here even if humans didn't exist. That you've to lie to yourself to continue to defend an obvious falsehood makes you weak not strong, makes you immoral not moral.
Love listening to you guys. Hope your expos reach people here in the Philippines. There's a lot of people here blindly follow greedy religious leaders.
It's up to every person to have a mind of their own.
26:30 is a great question from the caller. He actually took a step back and asked why he is coming to a different conclusion than an atheist. More people need to do this rather than just assert they are correct over and over again.
Matt hits the nail on the head with the alien life existence vs coming here to earth.... wish I had it recorded. The conspiracy theory kid and me, he kept moving the goal posts. I kept trying to question why he could believe what he believes.
That would be a convention I'd love to have with Matt. The fermi paradox, not really a debate but a statement on his ideas and why.... I know it's totally outside of just about everything I have heard him speak on. Would just be cool.
When I hear this Bible stuff, I can't help it, my mind always goes back to 'The Life Of Brian' possibly the best made film about that time.
Life of Brian is genius - it even has an accidental alien abduction in it! It's unbelievable!
I read in an ancient book that a god named Yahmakazi created the universe.
Because I have found the truth, I will go forth and teach all nations.
If they persecute me I will gladly suffer for my faith.
James Richard Wiley, you are wrong! My god Vinoshia is the only true god, she breathed and her breath created the cosmos. Repent your Yahmakazi or you’ll end up in my god’s torture realm for eternity, where you’ll be forced to play card games forever and every time you lose you get a hot poker in your butt.
Is the book full of atrocities, fallacies and inconsistencies?
Otherwise it doesn't count.
Is this the God of suicidal motorcyclists?
It's brilliant, Matt.
I moved from New York City to a rural, politically conservative, highly religious area (an area of the Shenandoah Valley west of Charlottesville, Va.) 22 years ago. And in that time, two things have struck me more than anything else about the folks here who are both rabid conservatives and devout Christians.
The first is how genuinely courteous and kind they are (on the surface, at least, though many remain just as kind and friendly even after they discover they're living next door to, working with, etc. an atheist, left-leaning independent.)
And the second is how hypocritical they are. Not all of them, but certainly a majority seem to say one thing at church on Sunday -- and something entirely different at the ballot box on Election Day.
How can anyone who says they adhere to Jesus's teachings and Christian principles -- when they vote for politicians who enact laws and policies that run almost entirely counter to those ideals?
I find the majority of people who call themselves christians to be garbage.
I love the science denying religious ads before these videos. I always turn the volume down and walk away, letting them play out so those ad dollars are spent on silence and go into the pockets of my favorite CZcamsrs.
Nice one mate. I never considered that before. I'm gonna do the same.
@@calumbutter8959 I was literally waiting for an adblocker to download when the thought struck me as a Prager U ad was playing. Now I let em rip and take those fool's money. 15 seconds here and there isn't gonna kill me, but them bleeding cash for nothing will hurt them if enough people are doing it.
"Zarhnon is the father of Drekk, our savior" I made a specific claim, it must be true
Drekkist heretic! Eat your cheesey communion fries and begone.
I love how Vi's final observation about living in a society, where a belief in alien abductions is the norm and how it would change our bias, is a perfect description of argumentum ad populum.
As a Christian, I see this argument everywhere, but if you actually look into alien abduction experiences people can stop the experience instantly by calling on the name of Jesus. God bless
Good episode!
Jonathan had moments of clarity at 6:45. Matt nailed it. Why would a god not provide absolute demonstrable evidence so that there is no debate? Religion is a system designed by humans to control humans period.
Explain it to Jonathon in 10 different ways and he keeps slightly rewording his defense
Even when I was a Christian, I still thought alien life was 100% possible and mostly probable. The idea that we are alone in an infinitely expanding Universe is beyond ridiculous.
Some reality deniers only deny the parts of reality that are too inconvenient... Like,... not being "specially created" by "the most powerful thing in the universe" to be the center of said universe (
I have always thought the same thing. Obviously I cant prove it but mathematically it only makes sense.
If a "small" galaxy has 1 billion stars and 1% of those have a planet in the habitable zone and 1% of those planets can have life then that means there 100,000 planets with life in it
This was a good one.