Should Twitch Streamers Pay Their Moderators
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- čas přidán 24. 11. 2022
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I think it entirely depends on what you expect out of your mods. If your mods are just long time chatters that you gave a badge to and they happen to help clean up chat when they are on, then nah. If you would be upset with your mod for not showing up regularly, then you are treating them like an employee and should pay them like one.
This is exactly what I think; if you're gonna treat it like a job, pay it like one. Otherwise they're doing it because they feel like it, and naturally you'll probably get worse effort too.
It also tends to spread the mindset that all good deeds should be rewarded. If the streamer doesn't boss them around, they're basically just reporting people but with more power. I don't expect Riot to pay me for reporting cheaters and harassers in Valorant, I take that time myself because it's the right thing to do.
Bang on, volunteers can come n go. Maybe some run a rota to try to get as much coverage over stream times and stop having hordes of mods all on at the same times but they're not going to start getting warnings for being late or demands for a sick note if they miss a day.
Doing paid work is a 2 way street. It's not just do work whenever it takes your fancy. You are making a commitment to do the work on the employers schedule and to their expectations.
The most reasonable take so far. People who think mods deserve payment in general are freaks.
I agree with this as well. If a mod is doing more then just modding a stream then why not.
If you treat your moderator like an employee, give them hours, and expect them to *act* like an employee, then you should damn well pay them like one. This is especially important for streamers with thousands upon thousand of people in chat, and they need to be on the clock constantly.
that's fckd up, but as much as i hate to say this... what stops the mods from showing up? they must be some kids who take pride in that badge OR (worse) streamers often have close communities in discords etc, and mods just pressure each other to it. i once was in such discord (although i wasn't a mod) and it was as bad as it sounds. worst part was, there was no way of explaining to these kids that none of us HAVE TO do anything and if we just stop either now the streamer has no mods, or he will have to respect our opinion. the streamer was the most wholesome guy ever, but his discord was the worst community i've ever seen (well, on par with SOME)
I mod for a relatively large streamer who started paying their mods recently. Doing the flat "everyone gets paid equally" felt pretty unfair so currently we have a system where you can sign up to mod during a certain time slot, and then get paid for the amount of hours you did. Only a couple people can sign up for the same time slot, and the rest can volunteer to help out if they want to. The system isn't without problems of course but as of right now it's the best we've come up with and at least I've been happy with it.
if a large streamer can afford it this is a great idea, it's very ideal
@@dylandykes1237 what he should be gratefull for? Doing work for free??
@@dylandykes1237 Ikr and those pesky sweatshop workers are always complaining they only make a dollar a day but atleast they make money. Suuuper ungrateful of them. 3head
@@ria_x_rose huh?
@@derhytel Sarcasm
If the stream can NOT function without moderators, they should absolutely be paid for their work.
Nah
@@hongomybongo9684 Here's the attention you wanted
but it can function
@@sphinxyt5810 What are you basing that opinion on
@@shortsrus common sense
I'll be honest, when I first found out that moderators don't get paid I was genuinely shocked (this was when i first got twitch btw and i don't think they HAVE to be paid)
Yeah especially with the ways they boss their mods around sometimes, it's crazy
Let's be honest chat mods are just glorified VIP chatters, they're degens who spend their entire life in their community (wether it's in chat, discord or reddit) and the streamer feels bad about how much time they waste so they get offered a mod badge to feel like it's not a waste of time anymore.
yeah, it's time you could make money if you were working. or could get some education that could earn you real something. imagine if some of them mfs got 4 hours of education on them mon-fri (or whatever) everyday for years what would they achieve. some do even more hours it's crazy
@@MFillmore I mean oftentimes they're fans like everyone else watching lol, they're probably just happy to be a big part of their community and don't realize they're being taken advantage of lol
Yea on Twitch, Reddit and Discord. These people spend their days moderating communities, wtf else do they do if they can do that AND not, y'know, die of hunger or whatever.
It's crazy that all of a sudden big streamers became the ones who say "we're family and family doesn't have to pay, we do it because we want to. Out of our own heart right?" Calling them janitors, but even janitors get paid
is there even a job were you DONT get payd? other than voluntary or church stuff? but even priests and nun's get a paycheck, i think.
@@trythis2006 I mean, in the end, mods are voluntary. I'd love if everyone could pay their mods, but if one can and another can't that seems unfair.
@@callmecei9246 i dont think its unfair at all, if you care about the stream you moderate you grow with it too, so eventually you Will get payed if you stick with it and see potential
@@trythis2006 don't say that. The literal problem is these mods already believe"i'll get paid eventually! and if i don't then someone needs to force these streamers to do it becuase its corrupt" Don't give them the idea that you will get paid eventually. because most likely you WONT
@@trythis2006 Even slaves got paid
The dude talking to XQC is 100% the type of person to make a mess at a fast food joint and be like “it’s their job, they signed up for this”
If you don’t like working for free don’t... easy as that, like seriously if you’re modding for someone you know doesn’t pay for his mods why be a mod for him to begin with? You volunteer and complain when you don’t get paid!? Makes no sense to me...
@@jackwitter3526 can you not comprehend any complex issues, everyone always talk about the parasocial relationship between content creators and fans and you can't put the two pieces together?
fans volunteer for these jobs because they like the creator without considering many other factors, when your boss is someone you idolize, the relationship is immediately imbalanced. many people modding are younger and they also might not understand the implications of working for free especially when that job should definitely be paid
there are so many more factors than "well they volunteered so they shouldn't be paid."
@@Turtlee. I think mods that work it like a second job, and don’t get paid should re-evaluate the way they want/should spend their time. Not saying they shouldn’t get paid for working a second job, it’s just I don’t get how you could continue to agree to work for someone that clearly doesn’t value your time and hard work... their has to be some sort of gratification in doing it if you can convince them to stay, imagine if McDanks just told its employees that they will be paid 0 dollars for working that day, no smart person would show up... same thing don’t do the job if it’s not rewarding
@@jackwitter3526 not saying it’s the same thing but your argument reminds of people who say “if the relationship was so abusive why didn’t they just leave”
@@JustAFCasual ya i get where you are coming from, but when someone gets out of a shitty relationship where their time isn’t valued (job, Romantic, and even family) they look back and wish they should have left sooner... the truth is, it does take 2 to have an abusive relationship and you are doing nothing but hurting yourself and giving the abuser the power he wants. Not trying to victim blame, but most people willing to stay in a relationship like that have very low self esteem issues that they have to work on!
As a former mod for some big crafters, I was spending 40+ hours a week on chatterino and discord being exposed to the most disturbing shit I’ve ever seen. At a certain size of community, at least having a paid community manager is the bare minimum. It was a struggle to even enjoy streams when having to deal with 20k chatters, doxxing, and death/sui threats.
but why? why do that shit for free??? I don't get why you would enslave yourself to someone just because you enjoy streams???
That sounds absolutely awful. Streams with bellow 1k viewers generaly have OK chats. More than that, and especially really big streamers, the chat becomes an absolute cesspool of spam with the same emotes and memes 24/7. Looking at that chat for more than 5 minutes is painful, I don't know how you could do it 40 hours a week for no pay.
But why did you keep doing it if you weren’t getting compensated??
@@ymetro1530 that’s what I’m saying lmao imagine if people volunteering at soup kitchen’s were like “ok so where’s our pay I’ve given up all my time and have even been harassed I deserve something at least” literally just stop doing it or if it matters that much go find somewhere that’ll pay.
I try to be less mean to be people, but this is genuinely hilarious and makes me laugh. Sorry you played yourself.
If the streamer is successful and making bank and the mods improve the quality of their chat and community then yes pay them! Small streamers obviously don’t have the income and shouldn’t pay their mods, but the big streamers definitely 100% should.
i dont get why people mod chat
E y
nah no one should
Nobody is forcing the mods to work, they volunteered to do the job because they care about the streamer and the experience, if they really didn't want to work for free then it's as simple as them not doing it, they aren't forced to sit in the streams, they aren't forced to ban anyone or timeout people. They aren't forced to sift through ban appeals, they can just be a normal chat member if they no longer want to volunteer their service. You all are speaking on the behalf of these mods as if this wasn't a conscious choice that they made or like they're being exploited somehow. Plus as Lud said it creates a weird dynamic where you start getting less people who mod because they actually care and more because it's their income and quality drops, plus there's hardly even a way to track who's doing what work so you wind up paying some guy who's practically doing nothing the same amount as someone who spends more time banning people than they do actually watching the streams. It's messy and unnecessary to do that for a position that inherently voluntary. Is it nice to pay mods? Of course, if you want to pay your mods then go for it, but you shouldn't be expected to do so.
Even more reason is the small streamers don't need dozens of mods to moderate their streams. So even less of a reason. Top 100 though? 10k+ viewers yeah. It's hard to moderate that.
1k a month is still pocket change and can be used by the mods to do fun things. IMO, of course.
If you can afford to pay your mods, absolutely you should. For smaller streamers, I think entrusting close friends who want to support you would be a good alternative and treating them every now and then from whatever you do get. I can definitely see the issue of a lot of people only being in it for the money, so maybe there could be an option to only begin paying after a certain amount of time has been put in, that way people who just want to make a quick buck would be deterred. But if you can afford the option, 100% pay the people who work for you.
why pay someone when someone else will do it for free?
@@Koltenyoutube because if they're actually putting allot of effort they deserve money
@@Koltenyoutube because you’re not a shitty human being? Idk that’s my first thought
@@lancetheking7524 they watch it as much as a regular chatter except they have perms to ban and timeout. they need to timeout people like 5 times an hour its not much work bro why do you think they have so many mods
@@Koltenyoutube because 100k viewers on average means at least a few hundred to a thousand bad eggs per hourly or longer stream?
If you want someone to do work, then you pay them. That's how it works. When people say streamers should pay mods, I don't think 99.99% of people mean small streamers.
I think a weirder dynamic is asking people to do thankless work for you for free.
honestly though, like if your putting your time to take care of a streamers chat when thats kinda of a part of their job then they should get paid for the time they put in
It's slave labor. It's EXACTLY how it works. You'll work for free because if you don't, we'll throw you out and replace you with someone who will. It's LITERALLY slave labor.
Exactly
But again most mods are volunteers they want to help. If I volunteer I don’t expect to get paid but also the streamer should expect to always be there
Alot of time its either volunteer work or friends doing it.
I think if you’re doing a job that takes a ton of work and time you should definitely get payed. Especially if the streamers are as big as some like XQC I’m genuinely shocked that his mods aren’t being payed.
This is what happens when your audience is made up of 99% children. They'll work for free. No adult with any substance to their name would work for these big streamers for free. Putting in basically FULL TIME hours on some streams while having to be glued to the monitor at all times isn't something any human who actually has values would do.
Didnt know a streamer as big as xqc dont pay or reward their mods, thats crazy. I couldnt be that selfish. Must suck somehow for some mods. Feelsbadman.
@@pinokio3785 They choose to be a moderator. Now how exactly do you determine how much work a moderator have done in the past month? Do you base it on how many timeouts / bans they've made? As he stated himself, he doens't want the employee / employer relationship in case shit gets weird. Equality and work ethics is exactly how shit gets weird, especially for a job that consists of moderating a chat window.
@@MrBa143 "as he stated himself, he doens't want the employee / employer relationship"" okidoki
@@MrBa143 he tracks hours like every other employer on the planet. labor laws were invented specifically because of people like xqc who think they are owed people's labor for free or slave rates. Labor laws just haven't caught up yet to the streamer market.
I think those in the top 0.1%should definitely consider it, especially those that end up working like Otto did, or Wojito. People that provide more than just being in chat.
I think people the top 0.01% twitch streamers should pay their mods. If it's a small chat(up to 1k concurrent viewers), it's VERY easy to mod the chat. It can also enhance your viewing experience and not detract from it. It's not a "job". But once you become a 5k or higher andy. It becomes a huge detraction from your viewing experience and it becomes a "job". Tbh, I think Platforms should add a counter to how many active(chatting/modding) hours you were on stream for the streamer to look at and determine how much you get paid. I think big streamers have no excuse on this.
Saying that if someone makes "400k a year" they cant pay their mods is fucking awful and greedy. I make more than that with my business and STILL pay a competitive and fair salary for the work done (plus bonuses if we get big projects out the door on time) and can still live my life and reinvest in my business.
I understand if these are smaller streamers and the mods are their friends, but when you get to the 3k+ range of viewers you should be giving your mods something, even if it's only a 100 bucks a month. Nobody is saying pay them 6,000 for doing this shit, but if they arent your friends and you had to do applications like a job to "hire" them they should at least receive something.
@@DrCranberry Congrats this has now involved a taxable income. But in the words of Miz he tossed away $10K and he might memeing but a liability for payroll/salary adds layers to this business model. What if the mod isn't in your country? Good luck with the taxes
@@ErikPT
You are aware this would fall under "self employment" correct?
@@DrCranberry i don't think he knows what being self employed means in terms of monetary actions/accountability. Like how when your self employed you have to pay yourself your salary from a business account or that you can use earnings in the business account to buy things for yourself as long as you can prove it qualifies as a reasonable business expense/investment.
If mods improve the quality of your stream pay them for their work its that simple. They are providing you a service and should be paid for it
even if they aren’t pay them otherwise you’re literally stealing from them
@@SKULLKR3W How can you steal something that is free?
@@SKULLKR3Wstealing? Most of these mods are just doing it voluntarily . It definitely ain’t stealing
The simplest way to put it 🙌🏼 if they added value 100% agree
Its voluntary work, I dont see why they should be paid
I agree, smaller creators can't really afford to pay mods. However, if you have a select few people who do a lot more than just deleting messages in chat. Like finding you content and organizing it, clipping content, compiling the clips and maybe doing event managing and more. They are a content manager/assistant more than mod basically and should be paid. Otherwise you're just exploiting your power as a creator and public figure over someone who may look up to you.
If you are expecting your mods to show up as if it's a job, pay them like a job because you are expecting them to treat it like a job. It all really depends though. Stream size, earnings, importance of mods and actually respecting the dynamic between creator and fan/employee. I think it's easy to exploit fans in a way to essentially make them your employees through their passion. It might not be a good thing to exploit your fans. Who knows though, just some wild ravings I'm having.
I’m the only one ever mentioning this but Kai hired ppl to host a hibachi grill thing in his house. Once they finished, he purposely didn’t tip them and was very vocal about not tipping them “bcus he didn’t have cash on him”. But he knew they were coming and didn’t mention anything about tipping electronically. This small occurrence told me enough about Kai’s character. Of course he does not pay his mods.
Yeah he's just a raw pure trash human. It's why Twitch never gave him no recognition for the longest time until people started forcing the issue because of "color"
He's fucking scum man. Everything he does reminds me of hood/ghetto shit I used to live near. Definitely not someone who should have a platform. Anyone with that kinda money that doesn't tip doesn't deserve shit.
@@CrustedPork interesting, because I always wondered why it seemed like he just came out of nowhere on top
Did they get paid normally? They did get hired….
@Peste You must have 0 clue how the food service industry works. A huge percentage of their income comes from tips. Being just a normal average joe and not tipping already makes you an asshole. Being a teenager who makes an absurd amount of money sitting in a fkin gamer chair all day and not tipping makes you far beyond an asshole. Personally I think tips should not be an expected thing and they should just up the wages so workers get paid adequately regardless. But thats simply not the world we live in
Yeah I mean I don't think all streamers should pay moderators but I think people who get like 10-15k+ viewers maybe should at least consider it, cuz there's a lot of activity and that is actually quite some effort especially when you consider how long a lot of these people stream. And mods generally also do stuff for their disc and whatever else the streamer needs help with.
No.
no
Don't give them a fixed salary but some minor perks if it means monetary then yes. A streamer can't be liable to pay upwards of 100,000 for 20 mods or 30,000 a year for 10 mods. Not all streamers are Ninja or XQC
Big streamers - yes, absolutely.
Small streamers - compensate them by being open to helping them with their projects when they need it.
Always compensate peoples' time.
Small streamers moderating for eachother is a great way to do it, neither of you can afford to pay so you can just help eachother out
@Helluva really based
@@siannn a very good solution! ^^
No. If you yourself volunteer to be a mod, no. If a streamer contacted you to be their mod, then yes.
@Bully peter fall into a wood chipper
It’s time. They’re spending their time. Should and can’t are different sentiments. Mods SHOULD get paid or compensated. But many streamers CAN’T pay them. And I’ve left many streams because they’re not moderated well. They’re LITERALLY making your community a community. And the streamer depends on that to grow. For a streamer that employs mods, there are ways to track their time spent working. Also, a mod doesn’t have to be a ‘fan’ it can be a position with responsibilities. They’re spending their time helping a streamer grow and make more money. And saying their time is not worth compensating is a bad take. Bad mods= bad boss.
This is why streamers hire people for the positions they want filled or skill sets they want available. A mod shouldn’t have any responsibilities other than MODerating chat. The “mods” that go so above and beyond do it on their own accord and shouldn’t expect monetary gain from it. If they want to apply for an actual position within a company to utilize a skill set they have, then it’s a different story.
@@guy1641 There are such things as entry level positions. The idea of doing a task for free is nuts. People need to stop putting this job on a pedestal. Maybe some mods wouldn’t get out of hand with a power trip if they could be fired. Keeping a community an awesome place to be is important. And it’s not an easy task. So many people act like being a mod is a place of honor or something. But it doesn’t have to be like that. It’s a job. And if streamers can’t manage their mods then that’s on them. And if a mod can’t fulfill their tasks or abuses their position they can be fired. It’s so weird that people think being a mod is this popularity contest. Talk to mods that have to deal with crap from viewers and they’ll probably paint a different picture. They get threatened, abused, and harassed. Sure. They should do that for free. 🙃 for someone else’s gain. They can’t even be open about their identity in many cases so they can’t even use it to apply for a job someplace else for another streamer. Or other jobs you seem to think streamers have to offer. Or in other sectors where moderating is important.
@@SewSewLive lmao it’s not a job. There’s no employment contract, no benefits, no taxes, most streamers wouldn’t even be capable or have the means of managing things like a payroll. It’s volunteer work at most. That’s where the disconnect is. This sounds like a whole lot of victimizing to me. If someone’s a mod that’s getting harassed and/or not enjoying being a mod….why do it?
@@guy1641 yea. Why do it? Especially for free. Why should anyone spend their time building someone else’s business. For free. I get it for a small community. But that’s it.
Honestly any fulltime-streamer should pay their mods if the mods are there helping steadily enough for it to be considered a parttime job.
but as many know, out of the top 1-2 k streamers dont make enough to pay someone else
@@tamhuy10full-time streamer usually mean they make easily enough to support their own life
@@cngotham4111 . supporting their own life is different than having enough to pay others. they should also save up for when they go downhill. I see a lot of full timers who get about 100-200 average viewers. i dont think they make enough to afford paying mods regularly
I don't think ALL full time streamers, I think of the people who treats their mods like employees, if you expect them to be there regularly and help with ever they can or else you'll "fire" them (take away mod badge) then you should pay them.
If you don’t have any requirements or expectations for your mods. Like how many hours they spend moderating, on demand title changes, etc. Then you shouldn’t have to pay them. Once you start expecting them to do things for you, when you want it, that’s when you should be compensating them.
makes a lot more sense to it for 'commission' wise than a wage. If you need people or something to happen for an event, that would be fair to pay those putting in that effort.
@legioinvigilata For moderation for a stream I could see an hourly wage
Since yk
Streams arent necessarily set start and end times
So that makes sense
Anything else yeah I agree
Moderators are effectively performing the role of Community Managers.
1000% there should be a transition from volunteer to paid/contracted.
Not all mods are Good. Most streamers' mods are extremally sensitive and ban you in a heartbeat if you don't say something they don't like. I have rarely had good encounters with mods and It's not like I go into a chat and start talking trash or talking non stop, I literally don't do anything they are just sensitive as hell.
@@Quinners08 but that is the point. There are good community managers and bad community managers, but community management is a job. Ideally the streamer would fire bad employees
@@josephdemarchi2128 idc Kai is better than u
@@saviors9148 and joseph is better then you, but what's your point???
@@saviors9148 Keep sucking his dingle then lmao
I think it's entirely case by case regardless of how much streamers make. If larger streamers moderators are just good chatters, who help out when watching, but have no requirement to be there and don't actually have to do anything, just doing what they can or want to - they should not be paid imo. If they help out more, with setting up bots, discord modding, helping with titles, link verification that's where you should start paying
As a moderator, manager, graphic artist, etc. for multiple streamers: If you are doing what you're supposed to do for most of these large channel, not being paid is just outright unpaid labor. Especially in cases where twitch mods are also Discord moderators. Setting up events for the community, giveaways, collecting suggestions, etc.
If streaming is your actual profession then yes, absolutely. You are essentially running a business. Mods are a vital part of that business and work hard to make it a success, not paying them is exploration. If you're a small time streamer it's another story, but if not, your stream is a business and you should pay your employees.
I know you mean exploitation but I can just imagine some mod going on some grand adventure to get paid.
they are volunteering how is it exploitation
@@Koltenyoutube because genZ doesn't think labor should ever be free even if you volunteer... and they think they should get paid just to get out of bed in the morning
It’s not exploitation because it’s volunteer work. If you go to a soup kitchen to feed the homeless, do you demand to be paid?
@@gamefreak2016 are soup kitchens for profit enterprises making millions of dollars? Is ludwig a charitable organization?
I think that the extreme reaction from big streamers when their mods ask for pay is ridiculous. T1 threatening to ban his mod for even ASKING to get paid for their time is pretty cringe. I guess you can have someone do the job for free for a time, but what happens when they need to pay bills? They'll have to get a real job or just do it part time I guess. If you want mods to actually do a good job and stay with you, paying them seems like a no brainer.
he has such an ego that he thinks he mods should feel blessed to moderate his chat
T1 has always been cringe
Do you think being a moderator should actually be a substantial job to pay off rent, mortgage, taxes, debt? Relying solely on a creator's kindness to make a living is an irresponsible mindset.
"What happens when they need to pay bills?" Moderators need to get their ass up and go get interviewed. It is not the content creator's responsibility for their livelihood.
*this does not pertain to the hardworking mods who realize this line*
But maybe you just dislike T1 but he didn't raise his voice solely because the mod asked. But because the mod insinuated other mods from another content creator are getting paid xyz amount.
Alike to what Ludwig said, most time it's the senior mods that are reliable and more trustworthy. You create that interface from the beginning.
Do I agree that mods shouldn't be paid? No.
Do I disagree with your reasoning? Yes.
@@bebong6412 no one’s saying that it needs to be, but, mr. Salty for no damn reason, there’s no reason it CANT be. If you put in the hard work to give a service, then you should be paid for it plain and simple.
@@ployter94 The first I heard of him was a couple years ago when he played in Minecraft Monday and was toxic to Technoblade. Worst first impression he could've made. I haven't liked him since tbh
i agree with all the points, i mod for more small time indie streamers so of course payment is never an option, but i do like working as a mod, maybe one thing that i'd agree on less is when you said that there when one mod leaves because they dont get payment there will be 5 others but they're not as good, i do think if you try hard enough/wait you'll find a replacement that is just as good and entrenched in the community.
i do think being a mod is a thankless job, but not because we dont get a thanks any time we help, but rather because its such a new "profession" that we have yet to figure out how it works.
either way i appreciate each and every mod out there that is there to help and is being selfless about it, keep on trucking. and remember to do it in your own time and dont let it sip into your personal life.
Love the return to form a bit here Lud, I've been waiting for a non drama related Mogul mail for a while now and It's nice to see :) keep up the good work
I think you also have to consider the the whole “you chose to volunteer” thing for this. Like, if you choose to volunteer as a mod for someone with like 100 viewers, and they then grow to have like 8k, I don’t think you should still be held to your initial agreement of volunteering. The sheer volume and scope of your work has increased so much, you absolutely should at the very least “renegotiate” (for lack of a better term) to see if any form of compensation is possible.
Personally, if I was a full time streamer, I’d probably try to pay my mods like 5-10% of the streams total income, provided it didn’t hurt my bottom line too badly.
Also I really hate Kai’s (is that his name? I don’t know) attitude about this. It’s fine to disagree, but he’s like getting genuinely angry and berating people for even daring to bring up the question of compensation
you can literally stop modding whenever you want and no you would not pay up to 10% of your revenue to mods alone
@@justyahz796 Of course you can. That’s why I said you should try “renegotiating”. If you don’t like it, stop.
And yes, I would do that? So long as it’s a reasonable amount, I can’t exactly convey the full scope of my economical considerations for paying mods in a relatively short CZcams comment. It was a general statement. Who do you think you are to tell me what I would and wouldn’t do?
@@T0NI_ ehh based on data you probably wouldn’t... talk is easy, but actually doing it is a whole another deal. Paying 10% of your earnings to mods is actually nuts and I’ll call fuckin cap. Most Mods I feel do it for free because they want the status of being mods...
@@jackwitter3526 It's 100% cap. I'm just confused on how people want to actually get paid. like as a channel grows theres no shortage of mods. I've actually modded for a larger streamer and also helped moderate their discord. dealing with their discord was much harder than moderating a stream especially when you have bunch of other mods there too.
The work is not hard and you don't need to be there every stream, it's 100% volunteering and people acting like it is hard work and if you're not there the whole stream will fail without you.
A mod is just a viewer who is trusted to keep things in order, there is no requirement or needed training, if you want to be paid that's 100% on the goodness of the streamer, but to me it's just paying someone to watch a stream
@@Ilint You're right - any top streamer could get rid of all of their mods tomorrow, open up applications, and have hundreds of people pouring in ready to mod. I think a very important part you're ignoring however is that the difference between a great mod and a bad one is massive. It's exaggerated even further when we're talking about more specific cases like head mods and community managers. These are usually people who have been around for a very long time, have more responsibilities, have a crystal clear track record, and are likely modding for the right reasons. Most streamers also have spaces for their community to interact outside of Twitch on platforms like Discord and Reddit. How are these spaces with tens of thousands of members going to be healthy, warm, and welcoming environments that accurately reflect the values of the streamer without quality moderation and engagement? Without some type of organization, moderation guidelines, rules, checks, and balances? Communities don't blossom out of thin air; they are cultivated by people. You need to build trust, transparency, and consistency. There is so much more to all of this than clicking an icon in chat every once and a while during an otherwise ordinary viewer experience. Mods being "easily replaceable" isn't a good argument against paying them because the _best_ mods can't be easily replaced in any meaningful way.
This conversation does not revolve around every single user with a green sword next to their name on the website. Ludwig literally gives known examples of people _by name_ from different communities who have found themselves with employment opportunities. This is about similar people who work without a wage and whether or not that should increasingly change as we move forward. Whether you personally think the work is "hard" or not - whatever your conception of that work even is - is irrelevant. These are human beings performing a _necessary_ task of clear value - especially if they do their job well!
There are tons of ways to structure all of this. You could have a team of 3 really solid people. You can have one community manager doing all of the heavy lifting but still working with a team of more casual mods and compensating them in smaller ways for smaller workloads and secondary support. You can have a slush fund like Ludwig that's divided amongst the mods evenly every month. You could have mod appreciation days where viewers get a chance to donate to a different link that all goes towards the mods; potentially incentivizing them to do the best job they can in the process. Certain ways will undoubtedly be messier than others but I think the ultimate point people are advocating for is that paying professional mods, a community manager, an assistant, whatever their title ends up becoming, is a higher quality solution on multiple levels for tending to and cultivating a community than a revolving door of "volunteers" even if it costs some money in the end. It really just comes down to whether or not the streamer recognizes that value in those under them.
Going off of the title alone: Yes, I think that bigger streamers should pay their mods.
Only if the mods don’t have any requirements that they have to meet
for big streamers, it’d be pretty nice if streamers gave their mods a little bit of money every now and then, as a gift of appreciation for their hard work
@don't be surprised nobody cares lol
@@therealinfinito well reading is needed to be a mod.
Should someone get paid for the job there intended to do ...... yes end of story
I think it really depends on the work you do like wojito showing his value with the slicker scandal.
I think of it this way:
If the streamer treats it like a job (expectations, bossing around, etc.) it's neutral on them to pay and bad on them not to.
If the streamer does it casually with no expectations or demands, then it's good on them to pay and neutral on them not to.
Regardless, any significant-sized streamer should at least have a couple paid assistants that do more significant work, but that itself is more just a good idea to keep quality up than a moral implication.
I love how that one streamer perfectly explained why getting random volunteer mods hurts your stream and didnt even realize it lmao. Mod literally offers unbans for payment and laughs about it. Whats gonna happen if he loses mod? Not like he was getting paid anyway, and whats to stop future mods from doing the same thing if they arent incentivized to do a proper job moderating the channel?
Paying your mods works both ways. It validates what they do and provides compensation for it, but it also sets up a dynamic where if they are not putting the work in, you can let them go. I know a small streamer who feels somewhat trapped with the mods he has cultivated. He basically has the stance of, "Well, 80% of my mods don't show up and do the work, but they're doing it for free so what can I do?"
I mean they’re doing it for free so you can just unmod them and mod more active chatters just because they’re mod now doesn’t mean they’re entitled to it
"Well, 80% of my mods don't show up and do the work, but they're doing it for free so what can I do?"
You can also take that quote as "Well, they work for free so they can just show whenever they want to."
Or, "If they're paid, they have the responsibility to show up and do what they're paid for."
This is like those Hotel Nightmares by Gordon Ramsey. Owners never paid their employees and gets mad when those employees doesn't take the job seriously.
If possible you could just have 5x more mods. If that isn't possible there's no choice but to yeet the inactive ones.
If you cannot effectively control your entire channel without the use of moderators, then you should pay them (if you can afford it) or compensate them in other ways. If the moderators are okay with not being paid because they genuinely have fun, then whatever. But if you have the income, the offer should always be there.
I think these top level streamers not paying their mods is disturbing, considering theyre making probably a million+ per month.
it’s rlly not tho
It rubs me the wrong way how Kai and Tyler1 view their mods as disposable.
True, i was shocked, how the mods tolerate these people. i know people in my work life that would quit the moment someone talked to them the way tyler and kay were speaking to their unpaid labor.
To be honest this is not Tyler and Kai fault, if these mods want to be submissive and work for free to someone a making bank, that is not even their friend(not that that changes anything) there is nothing we can do except make fun of these mods for the beta males they are
I've tried being a mod before and it's not easy and there's a lot of work involved, both on and off stream. I definitely do think mods should be compensated. The overwhelming majority of streamers can't afford proper wages for their mods, and trying to keep track of how much modding a mod actually does sounds nightmarish, but some form of compensation monthly or bi-monthly is definitely deserved. After all these people likely work all day then choose to spend their free time helping you, so the least you can do is show them you appreciate and value their time.
Lol what. If a streamer wants to pay their mods, there's nothing wrong with that. But mods "shouldn't" have to be compensated; it's literally volunteer-work. If you're unhappy about not receiving any form of payment, just dont mod the chat, that simple
@@2mac_mini952 I get that. I just personally don't feel it's right to have someone work for you, profit off their help, then not give them any form of compensation. Just because that's the norm now doesn't mean it should be.
The vast majority of streamers also can't afford proper wages on their own. Most of them are doing it as a hobby or earning money through a side hussle.
@@Abyssionknight Then just don't help them if you want to be economically compensated
@@Abyssionknight If they're doing it without expecting to be paid, why should you pay them
If everyone decided to stop moderating streamers, they would become unadvertisable IMMEDIATELY. If your career is so fundamentally dependent on the work of others, they should get paid, for you and for them. Whether you "need" to pay them is irrelevant, it's about whether you should. Even if you think any individual moderator is not valuable because you could replace them, the moderation community is crucial to your career and you should play your part in supporting it.
Yes!!! Absolutely!!!
this is an excellent point
Wouldn't say so, bots replace mods in most cases
Yea I don't agree that there dependant on mods
A lot of those streamers seem to forget without mods. That the things chat has said and if it stays in chat can and will get them banned it's happened before and can still happen. Hence why mods are needed in the first place.
I went from chatter to mod, the streamer is a for fun streamer, they're doing this as a hobby. I've also drawn a few emotes for them and over time we've become friends.
I don't think they're ever gonna go full time but if they do and it takes off we'll talk about it. I'm very pro honest covos with them.
It is strange that mods aren’t paid. Some of them do a ton of work for streamers. I get that it can be just friends helping and volunteering when you start. But if you get bigger and have thousands and thousands of people watching, that’s a legit job to attend every stream and babysit those thousands. People like wipz for tatman had better be paid. That guy runs the stream more than tim does. He’s like the puppeteer up Tim’s ass controlling everything he does on stream.
Yeah, size does matter in this instance. If you're small, you don't need to pay them because it's not going to be enough people or it's People helping, but when it comes to bigger stuff, it's very taxing
@@Arlesmon you could give something in return that isn't expensive just as a thank you from time to time if you are a small streamer.
The comment section: "Pay your mods!"
Ludwig: **"NO"** *with exceptions*
In general, I agree with ludwig in that it's case by case. It depends on the relationship you want to build with your mods, as well as what kind of mods you have. Ludwig's mods actually work hard to help Ludwig in his content, and since he makes alot of money off of said content, he pays them. But if you're just the chat police? Well, it's hard to justify paying someone to be a fan of you.
Edit: I sometimes wish you could turn off comment replies.
they do work, it needs to be paid. it's not hard.
don't matter if people will do it for less, it matters that it's being done, it's the whole minimum wage thing, same shit different name
@@ThaGr1m lmao no
Yeah agree 100%
@@ThaGr1m LOL
@@enzoarweq4525 come on explain, work is done, work needs to be paid, just because some other desperate fool wil do it cheaper doesn't mean that should be done.
now you go ahead and tell me why "no"
i think a lot of it depends on how much the mods actually bring to your channel as a whole and if there's an expectation that a mod has to be there during a stream rather than a person who can do a quick ban if they happen to be there. a lot of my friends have each other modded on their channels with no expectation of any pay or anything like that just because we trust each other if something needs taken care of
I think that you should pay your mods that kinda takes it as a job. Which means they put in the effort. They aren't there as viewers with additional privileges, they are there to do a job, which is to help improve the chat and hence the streaming experience, for both the rest of the chatters and the streamer.
Problem is, I don't think that counts for many. Be it Xqc or Kais mods. I've not paid much attention to most streamer chats, but a few like Mizkif and Luds chats are definitely improved cause of the mods. Which I guess is why they also pay these mods.
If your mods are helping your streams and you can afford to pay them then a streamer I think absolutely should. I agree going from donating your time to an employee is a difficult shift because when you throw money into the equation it can muddy relationships. But for those top streamers that can, should because in the long run it’s a worthwhile investment.
I used to admin for a large streamer and the amount of work that goes not only into moderating the chat, but ensuring that the streamers reputation stays intact is mind boggling. We not only moderate the chat, we do damage control, image control and more. Depending on how big the streamer is, there often is some form of hierarchy, some who show up less don't have that chance to move up. I feel like on and off mods should not be paid, they kinda show up whenever they want. , but those who are present every stream, or admins/community managers should get some form of compensation. I had to quit once I got my first corporate job because it genuinely took so much time that I wouldn't have time for me at the end of the day. I basically ran a team of 40 people for free, did the HR, training material, recruitment, damage control, dealt with staff issues, and so much more.
I stayed because I absolutely loved it and got so much experience out of that. It's fun but no way should it be free labour. I also did all of this without a single thank you from the streamer I modded for. I understand they wanted to be detached from moderation but we all want to be appreciated for what we do at the end of the day.
You have definitely never ever been- as a mod... that is such bullshit and so much romantizising of what a mod actually does xD
@@LoFiAxolotl I can guarantee you without a shadow of doubt there are great mods in countless communities doing every. single. thing. the comment described and much more in some (paid) cases. These job positions quite literally exist in the world today regardless of what ANYONE in the comments wants to say: they're called community managers. The people who represent this role in the streaming space are typically called "head mods". You absolutely have to manage the mod team and collectively work towards a desired community culture if you want the community to be the best it can be. If the Discord, Twitch, or Reddit needs new mods you'll have to go over their applications (if you even recruit that way) or speak with them individually as sort of an informal interview to try to gauge their temperament as much as you can beyond what's already observable from their behavior in the community. Once you bring someone on you'll have to walk them through whatever moderation guidelines you have along with your community's bots and commands. Furthermore, when someone is outright abusing their powers or simply handling moderation inappropriately - you guessed it - you have to deal with it! You need to remember we're talking about new frontiers of the service industry. Streaming wasn't even really a respected career in our society 10 years ago and depending on who you ask it's probably still not! All of this might not resemble some corporate office structure with full blown HR, PR, Management, etc. but head mods are effectively doing all of the same things for the space as it exists now. And again, this is REALLY IMPORTANT: we're talking about specific people in specific communities on the platform. We're not talking about every single user with a green sword.
Apologies for the long comment but for anyone who believes good mods aren't worth even a dime: what do you genuinely think would happen if every mod disappeared tomorrow? These are human beings performing a *necessary* task of clear value - especially if they do their job well.
@@LoFiAxolotl i don't care if you really believe me or not, when i admined the streamer had 15k-90k conçurent views per stream, the roles of admins and community manager and their tasks grow with the streamer themselves. i'm not saying everyone did this, we were a handful that got to have the leadership position (admins and senior moderators). it also truly depends on the community, the content and moderation culture in that community forced us to have rigid structures like this
@@ty-td4gq thank you you said it better than i could
@@peachmaze I thought you did great! Just wanted to add anything I could to support once I saw, no offense IDDQD, such a closed off response to you describing *very* common community structures in this space. Much love!
Yes. If they are putting in hours to make YOUR stream a better experience then you should pay them. If someone wants to work a part or full time job for free that's their prerogative, but you shouldn't expect them to work for free. And once you're a big time streamer who makes a lot of money you should just pay them regardless.
Nobody is forcing the mods to work, they volunteered to do the job because they care about the streamer and the experience, if they really didn't want to work for free then it's as simple as them not doing it, they aren't forced to sit in the streams, they aren't forced to ban anyone or timeout people. They aren't forced to sift through ban appeals, they can just be a normal chat member if they no longer want to volunteer their service. You all are speaking on the behalf of these mods as if this wasn't a conscious choice that they made or like they're being exploited somehow. Plus as Lud said it creates a weird dynamic where you start getting less people who mod because they actually care and more because it's their income and quality drops, plus there's hardly even a way to track who's doing what work so you wind up paying some guy who's practically doing nothing the same amount as someone who spends more time banning people than they do actually watching the streams. It's messy and unnecessary to do that for a position that inherently voluntary. Is it nice to pay mods? Of course, if you want to pay your mods then go for it, but you shouldn't be expected to do so.
Like you said, mods WANT to be mods, they knew going into it that they weren't getting paid, they made that choice on their own, that's "their prerogative"
@@nyxislost553 exactly.
@@nyxislost553 At a certain point it takes a turn and becomes predatory. No matter how much someone wants to mod for free work is still work and to allow someone to do real hard work for you for no gain of their own simply because they want to please you, that's not a healthy relationship dynamic.
Real friends do things for each other for free because it's an equal, reciprocal relationship. This isn't the case in a moderator/streamer relationship.
Just watching chat and removing troublemakers is one thing, but if they're putting in real hours for the stream the power dynamic needs some form of equalization and the best way to do that with someone who isn't an irl friend is through money.
Just because someone will allow themselves to be taken advantage of happily doesn't make it ethical.
@@nyxislost553 The thing is they're taking advantage of parasocial relationships where this person vicariously feels like they're doing something meaningful because they themselves hold the streamer and the stream to a high regard in terms of significance. Often times streamers don't have age limits either and take advantage of teens. These are people who are taking time to manage your stream, why not pay them if you can? It doesnt have to be overpaid either like it can be an average hourly wage which these streamers make more than enough to compensate. Also I think money would incentivize mods to take it more seriously or they will lose their job where as right now atm the only benefit is to those who power trip because if you get "fired" from a free job, who else would care? I hope this is the new patreon type of deal where creators/artists woke up one day and asked "why am i doing this for free?" and are now thriving and making a living from it.
I was legitimately shocked when I found out streamers didn't pay their mods. And to hear the way some of these dudes talk about it, surprised anyone's stayed to do it at all
Lud having to translate from xQc language to English is the funniest thing ever lol
The issue is that Kai has such a large stream, and his mods help keep chat in line and from what I’ve seen they usually help the general quality of the stream, and he clearly has the money to.
I agree if you can afford to pay Mods, especially the ones who have been around for a while, then you should.
I think that the biggest should definately pay their mods even if there is a wonky dynamic, dealing with those hellhole chats in the biggest streams gotta be beyond annoying if you're also tryna enjoy the stream lmfao
I think streamers should if they can afford it ( and I mean if the have excess money after putting some away in savings) and if the mods are doing more than just watching chat if your mod is doing things like making thumbnails, in discord, giving videos to watch, giving games to play, research and stuff like that and you are telling them to do that or expect them to have a schedule then at that point they are a employee and not a volunteer. But most mods who usually are for smaller channels are volunteers and do it because they want to.
Would be hilarious to see a big-ish streamer struggle with chat moderation due to neglecting and not valuing other people's time.
t1 is the perfect example for this
Then what happens if Twitch ends up improving the bot machines to filter out those people and essentially replaces the current mods. That would be pretty funny too tbh.
@@esRaortiz auto moderation can never quite compare to the value of real moderation, context matters in every situation. As an example, something like joking about someone dying would be fairly difficult to automatically moderate without being either way too lenient or way too strict, you need that human element to filter it in order to give an appropriate punishment but not kill the chats mood
That's never going to happen because there will ALWAYS be people asking for mod role for big-ish streamers. Hell, I still see mod-begging for small streamers.
Once you become big enough, and depending on how many streams, how long, etc...I definitely think mods should be paid. If they're expected to be there keeping chat clean and fun, they're also spending their time and effort. No free labor.
Streamers realising running a business is not about hoadring money for themselves:
In all honesty, I don’t see a reason to not pay your mods. People pay video editors, I don’t see why they can’t do the same for their mods.
Because its not the same thing lmao
@@enzoarweq4525 they both provide a service to improve the content of the streamer. Now I’m terms of how much they should be paid, that’s a different conversation, since a good editor is highly skilled, but they both do a job, and they both should be paid.
@@partypandamonium9116 being a mod is a choice a free service so why pay them if you volunteer to be a staff you will not get payed if you asked to be hired then you should get payed
the reason is they don't have to; so many "fans" would gladly do it for free
it's a volunteer position though. the mods become mods knowing full well they won't be paid lol
not paying your mods is like making people waste time for free but I guess if you have enough mods to fill in when they get bored, then you should be fine but theres definitely going to be trust issues, so I think paying them in the end is definitely a good choice if they're there for long hours at a time
What do you mean “making people waste time for free”? The mods are long time fans of the streamer. They want to be there. They shouldn’t expect to get paid and they shouldn’t be paid. If they want to get paid they can go get an actual job and prob make more than a mod would
@@Devon.with.an.i They are fans of the streamer that most likely had to apply to be a mod. Almost all streamers have mod applications. They weren't just made a mod because they're a fan.
@@zetetsu7169 …but they decided to be a Mod as they were a fan. That’s like the only checkbox to fill-all others are complementary.
@@zetetsu7169 yeah, they’re long time fans who applied to be mods. They didn’t apply for the part thinking they’d be getting paid
@@Devon.with.an.i And? most don't expect to be paid for small streamers since it's small and pretty easy to mod. Have you seen the big streamers chat? It literally requires them to constantly watch chat and make sure nothing that can get the streamer banned to get through. If a mod wants to do that for free that's fine. But to suddenly have to mod for almost 8 hours a day and not do anything else? That's a job at that point and most people would like to be compensated. most big streamers actually do pay their mods. Some don't like example T1.
They way I would probably go about it, keep in mind i don't stream so i have little clue about the dynamic and i've only been a twitch mod for smaller streams a couple times, is probably check the activity of everyone who is a mod prior to announcing paid positions to the mods, and then let said inactive mods go, look for people who are willing to fill their positions, wait for a period of time to see how activity, commitment, intentions, etc of said new mods and then announce pay
i never understood my dad listening to a news show about sports in the morning, i always liked silence better. But with these episodes i love waking up to a new mogul mail to learn more current info about the streaming world, and now my dad and i talk about our morning news together so thanks❤
If you are in the top 0.1% you should pay your mods. You most likely regularly stream to the point where this has become a somewhat full time job for them. If you want them to be able to make a good living from making you a priority, and they make the entire experience of your stream better, then you need to pay them period.
if the streamer is making a lot of money, they should pay their mods. I've seen mods that work day in and day out, sometimes modding a 10k viewer chat by themselves, and the amount of effort i've seen some people put in is more than deserving of at least some financial compensation. Some of these people are taking time out of their day, sometimes up towards 10 or 12 hours per stream, to help make chat better. Not only that but they're often exposing themselves to possibly triggering and/or disturbing things. Like you said, people sometimes just spam slurs and it can take a lot of mental and emotional energy to push through and continue to see nsfw/harmful stuff every stream.
Yeah.
Modding is a weird spot. For most streamers its just indulging in the parasocial relationship aspects. You get "more" access to the person behind the scenes but to them you're just an expendable resource. The paycheck would absolutely sever that relationship. It's no longer a fake friendship, it's a job with responsibilities.
If you expect someone to be around and do stuff for you, then maybe think about compensating them for their time.
I think if your chat is at the point where you the streamer cannot maintain it on your own and need moderators, then yes, you should pay them. It doesn't really matter if you're not making as much as bigger streamers. They're putting in time to do something for you, that you are not capable of doing on your own. And if you're making money in the process, they should too even if it's not much. Any other option seems exploitative.
I understand XQC's dilemma.
I've paid friends for things they volunteered to do for free and things got weird... Like they started thinking I didn't consider them a friend but instead an employee, or started asking stuff like "do you think you're better than me?" or thinking they needed to pay it back no matter how much I insited they earned it. Then finally they just left and I never heard from them again.
Like SOMETIMES it does make it weird if you have that kind of relationship already established.
On the flip side, Ludwig has paid friends and they still remain his friends. They clearly didn't take his generosity with money as condescending or weird in any way. So it really depends on the type of relationship you have with people to begin with.
Iv had this same thing happen : ( I hope ludwig makes a vid or a podcast on how to have this not happen
These people are not XQC's friends. Maybe being paid would create a healthy non-parasocial dynamic
@@lowell751 I wouldn't presume how close or far from friends XQC is with people I dunno, that seems kind of parsocial in of itself.
Or you can be a normal human being and *communicate* GASP. Maybe they can consider explains that they are super grateful for all they have done and continue to do for the s stream and want to compensate them for it if they are comfortable
I encontered the reverse of this situation where I was paying for the gass and the moment I asked for a payback on that it got weird. I also had a friend who I asked for money back for driving and he basically though I was abusive so I cut his ass out. It really depends on the people you hang out with. In my opionon it should be a fair deal someone pays for something make sure to pay him back OR at least give him something for it.
I admire that you actually interpreted xQc's unique lingo than simply writing him off
Understanding xQc is an entire skill set on its own. You need a whole ass Rosetta Stone or translator just to interpret it into English.
Some should, like PMW has a few that do so much ( Peanut/Carlos/Booty/Maiya) and they get paid, but they also do a lot of work.
I respect the flex of doing a sponsored segment in your video for another of your own projects and treating it like a full segment.
I think the way Lud does it is perfect. Doing it via donations and making it very clear donations go towards mods means that chat is essentially choosing to reward the mods for keeping the community running in a positive way. The amount of work they do and the way they interact with the community will directly effect their pays.
I also agree that Mods who have been in the community longer are generally better but also chatters who have been there longer are the best choice for new mod roles.
I have moderated for a few channels and I've been asked to help mod for other channels before that I have just popped into and been able to give some helpful advice to, but if I don't know the community I always tell the streamer to look within their community first. I don't know what is acceptable to every community and I can't know all the inside jokes that come with years of watching a streamer from within chat. I might punish chatters for something that is completely ok within that community and that could effect the streamers growth.
Donation payment for mods at the high end makes sense and even if it isnt all donations if the bigger guys made a seperate link that is specifically for tipping the mods and plugged it for them once a week or had a mod appreciation day once a month where tips go to mods then the community can decide what to do for the mods and that removes the responsibility from the streamer and also removes the power dynamic onus of boss to employee.
i saw stevesuptic do a mod day, he streams and chatters know that the donos on that day go to the mods
Donation payment is stupid af in my opinion. Here's why...
You have a contracted streamer, Ludwig in this case, that rakes in a cool 7 figure income every year BECAUSE HE STREAMS. Sure, he probably makes side income, but at the very least his contract with CZcams pays well over 6 figures and is plenty to support a payment plan.
His mods do a large amount of work for the stream. He's utilized them in several different ways, even to the point where he asks them to do mundane tasks throughout the stream. "hey mods, lets put a poll up" "hey mods, change the title of the stream" "ok, the mods put together this list for me..." etc. We've heard it more than once, they do work.
Not just that, but then account for the amount of time the mods invest into the stream. Even if they sit there and just do plain moderation, they're still sitting there for 3-6 hours at a time. Ofc theres those that aren't there for the whole stream, but there are definitely those who are.
Either way, at the end of the day, the mods do enough work to earn at minimum some sort of salary. Even if its 100 bucks per stream, they should be on a payment plan. This is all dependent on the relationship between the streamer and mods, and yes Ludwigs mods are seemingly happy with their relationship with Ludwig, but Im looking at this altruistically, and the streamer should have no qualms with out right paying their mods if they make enough.
Not just that, but its super simple to create a payment system for mods. Its not hard to have a singular, trustworthy person watch the mods and report mods activity. What im seeing though, is streamers don't see their streaming as a business. They can't because if they do that brings on too many responsibilities that they aren't mature enough to embrace or accept.
In short, donations as payment is stupid because it releases the burden of pay from the streamer onto twitch chat... which alleviates the streamer of any qualms such as "oh, you werent paid that much this month? well sorry donations were really low i guess, lets hope next month is better!". In short, its a cheapskates way of pushing responsibility in the form of charity.
@@MrGamis they get more than 100 /day with the donos
@@tamhuy10 your point is what? "Oh they get more than the lowest suggested amount you gave therefore you're wrong?" Is that seriously your argument?
I tossed that number to showcase how low the bar CAN BE for the streamers. Fact is Ludwigs mods put hours of work and effort in and deserve a decent paycheck. Not 4 or 500 a month MAYBE from donos. If you think that Ludwig makes more than what he does with his contract in donos, you're sorely mistaken.
The only good thing about the dono system is the fact the mods get paid at all. Its nothing but a tactical scam on his mods to keep them thinking they're getting what they're deserved and eliminating all precedent for him to actually pay them and treat them decently as employees since that's essentially what they are.
@@MrGamis L
Imagine working for someone for free just to feel powerful in the chat 💀
As a small twitch streamer I don't pay my mods I most often don't even hit the payput threshold. But once a while I do buy them a game we wanna play together after something big happened or I'm able to miss it.
If you have mods, pay your mods, even if you cannot give them much. They work for you.
Many people no longer want to be mods or admin because they do some meaningful work for someone else, and they did get anything.
Everyone wants to be an internet janitor or they wouldn’t do it for free
Only Mogul Mail would have this haircut
What a good friend for getting the same haircut as Ludwig in support.
@@tana3875 Actually Ludwin got a haircut to support Ludwig and mogul mail. After those two fought with razorblades.
Yes, I never was a mod but if they are truly moderating the chat and making the stream a safe place then it's work in my eyes. Maybe not work like 1000$ a month but they should get a little as a bonus.
Hey Ludwig, as a student who has studied some psychology and management theory (but by no means a professional), I wanna say that there are some interesting psychological dynamics at play whenever you involve payment in passion ”jobs”, which really is worth looking into. Maybe especially before you take the argument of paying mods to other streamers, since it can make a reasonable argument against it. If not, then the knowledge might still help you find a effective system for paying your mods while still keeping it motivating and fair. Good luck!
Yes, the top 100 streamers or maybe a little under that, should pay their mods. I don't think the mods who just ban or time people out should get paid though. Of course then you would then have to semi-track their work and what they do on a daily/weekly basis but honestly, its gunna get to a point people arent going to deal with being a mod when they aren't paid. That's basically what is happening right now in the bigger streamers chats, people want to get paid but you also need people who you know will do the job correctly.
Regardless of the amount mods are paid, they deserve a cut of the value they create.
but they barely add any value to a stream. unless they themselves help with content produced. most mods just sit and watch the stream if they see somin bad being sad they delete and ban. they are normal viewers with the ability to ban and delete messages.
@@void-wx4fs If you want to see the value that they add, see how long it takes a large stream to be banned if all their moderators stop working and they continue to stream
@@enider i hope u do realise a streamer cant be banned by what their chat say. and when i said they add no value i didnt mean they litreally do jack shit and are useless bro.
@@void-wx4fs "Streamers are role models and leaders of the communities they create or foster around them. Streamers are expected to use channel moderators and the tools we provide, such as AutoMod , chat timeouts and bans, to mitigate hateful conduct in their channel. Not using the provided tools to moderate hateful conduct appearing on a channel-or otherwise attempting to mitigate the behavior/content-will lead to a suspension."
Thats a direct quote from Twitch terms of service. Since it is litreally impossible for one person who is also trying to sctually stream to also be moderating a chat with 10k+ people, they can very much be banned if their chat starts going of the rails.
@@enider i dont get why theyd ban the streamer for others actions but fair enough. still, paying mods will just create drama even if u pay the mods equally. there will be hard working mods making the same as some lazy bum who hasnt even checked in stream for ages. + most mods volunteer to be mods knowing full well they are not going to get payed.
I suspect that in the future another position for mods that will definitely be payed will be a live producer. There already are some platforms that allow for remote production and I can see some streamers offloading some of that to a 3rd party.
Isn't this already a thing for some mods? I saw some mods have access to the stream in some way (I don't really know exactly) like where they can help change the stream title, help change layouts, etc. Things similar to what a live producer does I think in a stream context.
Depends if they do more and are more of an assistant. Besides that, moderators are more of volunteers, if you don't have time to do it then step down. If you start paying them, it becomes a job, then you have to start evaluating their performance all while streaming.
I really like how stevesuptic does the accounting for mods from a viewer standpoint bc 1 out of 5-6 streams a week (USUALLY saturdays) is mod days and all proceeds go to them. They do the work, they get to play games on stream, and they get the money. The goderators are always in chat and are nice and they deserve it
I think if you're a big streamer you get what you pay for. If care about maintaining stable and active moderators you should probably pay them. Not for ethics but for the sake of quality.
man, I hope that mogul mail collaborates with Ludwig in the future, mogul mail might even be able to increase Ludwig’s viewership
he can’t mogul mail killed ludwig
@don't be surprised unfortunately, no.
Unfortunately Ludwig was taken out by Mogul mail, we need a resurrection arc
Nice copy and paste for likes comment bro.
@@zeuskidkash8845 yes!!! A resurrection arc! ❤️ Brilliant idea!
I hope they will find a way to track these mods
and tell who deserves the pay or not
Reminds me of like theatre gigs for the technical work i do.
If it's you and your mate and I'm involved cos I like the product, I'll do it free.
But if I don't like the product, or you're like a established theatre, no I won't labour for free lol.
They're going out of their way to make the streamers have a smooth running experience. Just feels ungrateful from bigger streamers to not pay them
Keep paying them, I don’t use chat but it’s nice to know you are providing a living for people who are working for you
I feel like if twitch added a system that would track the mods in the sense of how long they spend moding for you that would help. Cuz I know you can have 5 mods and only 2 actually mod activity (not to shame the mods that don’t life gets in the way and maybe they don’t want to). But there’s no way to measure how much they did. But if you can pay them you should
I was so naive when I began streaming - I refused people wanting to be a mod BECAUSE I couldn't pay them. I don't like people doing labor for free. Period. It's also why I still don't have any editors.
This mogul mail guy is really serious about his work! Hope he collaborates with ludwig in the future!
I think that after a certain point of money, or maybe if you're full time or something, you should pay mods *something*. Not necessarily like a wage or anything, but like some fraction of the revenue they make (although big streamers (6+ figure salary) should definitely have some kind of consistent pay, like hourly or smth idk).
The reason is simple: they are adding value to the stream. You can say "oh but they get value from the stream too because they watch it" but in that case they are getting compensated as much as regular viewers who do 0 mod work, yet they get to enjoy less of the stream because of the mod work. The bottom line is that streamers make money because the stream they make is valuable, but the stream would be less valuable - and thus make less money - if they don't have good moderation. If a streamer doesn't pay their mods, they are essentially taking that value for themselves and giving nothing to the mods in return.
I think for most smaller streamers, mods don't really want to be paid anyways since the amount they would be paid would be insanely small anyways, but larger streamers shouldn't be allowed to decide for the mods what they should be paid. It's unethical and essentially stealing.
Honestly a lot of the streamer counter-arguments are just streamers admitting that they are too lazy to recognize that they have a business that depends on employees whose work is hard to quantify, so they just don't want to bother with it because it doesn't effect them. Imagine if you asked your boss for overtime pay because they make you stay 15 minutes extra per day every day, and they just say "no, it would be weird". Like that isn't how this works??
"and meta if anyone streams there". I actually watch someone who streams simultaneously on YT and FB and there is literally always issues on FB that her mods have to fix or bring to her attention all the time. I didn't even know you could stream on FB until she mentioned it
I was a mod for a streamer and I was their only paid mod. HOWEVER, I also clipped funny moments mid-stream, edited them into TikToks, and posted them. I also organized their Discord server and set up all of the bots, and also made changes as needed. I was usually there to mod and this streamer would stream very late at night (until my college picked back up after the lockdowns eased up). I was paid a percentage of their Twitch earnings (not including sponsorships or any other revenue).
Honestly if you're making even like 60k a year, paying your mods SOMETHING seems reasonable to me. Obviously mods can't make a living off from it, unless the streamer is one of the top earners. Once the streamer is able to be comfortable, I would think they could be tossing their mods $50 bucks a month even. Doesn't have to be a lot, but it could be paying their phone bill, or whatever. I don't really know that much about it as I don't watch streams very much, but if they are doing a lot to improve the stream, it only makes sense to me.
Also, this has made me wonder if mods for CZcams channels would help with all the problems with spam and scams in the YT comments. 🤔
as someone who has modded for big streamers as well as worked with big youtubers in the past I have always done it without expecting any form of compensation in return. I think that it does create a weird dynamic. It also then makes me feel even more obligated to have stream open 247 when sometimes I just don’t wanna be there. I think there are circumstances where specific mods should be compensated… Wipz for example from tim’s chat comes to mind. However I do think that mods need to be showed some love at least. everyone who I have modded for I always ended up being an acquaintance with as opposed to a janitor in their chat. I think a level of appreciation is all that is needed to show that you care for your mods and what not. (edit. after reading through some of the comments I see a lot of people think you should. Personally the only scenario where a regular mod should definitley get paid is on certain days where it is a pain in the ass to mod the chat. like when drops are out and what not. I have had to spend hours in the past in chats with 10k-50k viewers at a time because of an event such as twitch drops for games or event viewing and that can be very annoying as many new viewers are in chat and the work becomes that much harder. but other than being compensated for those specific days I have never once cared to be compensated for regular stream days or anything…… also to add I think some streamers get bad mods. Mod apps almost never work because they are just random people applying. every mod Postiion I have ever gotten was just because I was a loyal viewer who came often and the streamer liked me. In chats where moderators are picked via application or what not I have always noticed that those are the mods that power trip the most and want to be compensated. the best mods tend to be people relevant in the community who are their first because they enjoy the streamer, and second because they have to mod. getting that twisted is really bad. I believe your first priority as a mod should be to want to just enjoy the stream because then it never feels like an obligation)
Can some one sum this up
tldr; weird dynamic argument again
bro youre literally working for free :skull:
I used to be a mod for a streamer who was growing a lot at the time (she’s pretty large rn and I couldn’t be prouder of them), and honestly even though it was so stressful it was worth it for her being a nice person to talk to and loved the mod team as well. They randomly played all the mods about $12 for our hard work near Christmas. Yes $12 is small to a lot of people reading this, but to me it was more so a nice way of thanking us and showing appreciation for how much we’ve helped during the sudden influx of viewers.
If she’s somehow reading this, thank you for being my friend all those years and for helping shape a very large part of my life
….12 bucks for Christmas?
On the most basic of it's applicstion it's literally a janitor's work. Do schools pay their janitors? Do malls pay their janitors?
I understand the part of mods being mods because they want to, and if they don't want payment for their job then thats ok. I think it would be bad if a mod wants payment or at least some kind of retribution and the streamer actively denies it, because at the end of the day, they are delivered with a task nobody else wants, or at the very least, not a lot of people are willing to properly do
I feel like rewarding your mods for a good job is the way to go. Because otherwise it kinda feels like your taking advantage of your most die hard passionate fans. You don’t necessarily have to have a pay structure but you should at the least send some merch or something
give them a pat on the back then.... they're volunteering....
Honestly your way is the only way. Keep doing you bro it's honestly nice to see the 40+ hours mods can put in in a week actually helping them keep a roof over their head or debts slowly vanish. They put in the hours of a full time job but don't get the return of one. I find it's just a respect thing at that point. A way to acknowledge the work they've done and thank them for not getting another job in replacement. The mindset of someone else will always work for free sounds like buzzfeed.
The only sponsorship I actually listened to all the way through. I fuckin love lud
For me the bigs streamers should pay there most closest mods, and mods that have been there for ages. While everyone else can’t, because many are barely making anything to even support themselves. There should be some compromise to a extent, but I think it’s good to help them with a problem like as weird as it may sound is if there a student help them with there homework such as a essay like grammar errors; or If they want to start streaming then helping them get started and while they do that they still support your streams.
I definitely think mods ( depending on what they do) should be paid for their work because top streamers can afford to pay them. I definitely the “weird relationship” for paying isn’t a good excuse because they are technically already working for them. I also think that most reasons for mods becoming mods is that they already have a small amount of being parasocial and feel “closer” to streamers