Why Narcissists Love Borderline Women and Why They Hate Them Back
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2020
- Full text here: samvak.tripod.com/faq01.html
Narcissists love borderlines because they can mortify them, like their mothers did. Borderlines hurt narcissists because they love them.
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Borderline as a “Failed narcissist” is fascinating to me because I’ve seen borderline as hanging onto the last bit of empathy they have access to. And then losing their hold on it when there is too much stress or a threat of abandonment. Thanks a lot for these videos. Truly so insightful
I would rather say that they are unregulated narcissists.
This is a very narcissistic perspective, but that is as expected from Vaknim. Otto Kernberg says narcissism is a defense against the borderline tendency to split and have an image of oneself of anything other than positive.
Perfectly said.
😮. 😮😮😮😮😮 😮😮 😮😮 😮vvc😮c vvv 😊😊😊 G
@@redfullmoonmaybe how it develops
Being diagnosed with BPD since 19, now 41, all my major relationships were with men who had NPD. It is a dance I need to end as it’s damaged me just as much as childhood.
Yep that’s all I attract
@@wildchild6141 I’m just empty at this point going through it atm with another narc!!! I have the ability to ignore him and discard him, devalue him put him down etc..he feels the need to impress me, compete with other man Lmaoooo I’m comorbid bpd npd! Tbh I’m terrible I’ve put a knife to him..and now he’s unleashing he’s narc rage on me 🤦🏽♀️😂😂😱
@@wildchild6141 I know
We choose familiar. I always chose men similar to my abusive father figures
@@missbcritiques9209 I’m more the opposite. Normally I have to put effort in to attract girls (as most men do), but the only girl who ever showed a persistent interest in me was seriously emotionally unstable. I initially thought she was an empath since she “absorbed the emotions of others” (an assessment she agreed with), but in retrospect she looked very similar to how BPD is described. I don’t know, all I can say for certain is that she was very unstable.
The part about the child existing before narcissism is very sad.
Damn this has opened my eyes so much. This man is extremely smart.
I’m a borderline female and I have dated a narcissistic man and it used to seem like he’d trigger me on purpose just for me to hurt him over and over and at some point I’d be so confused because he hurt me but I stayed and he loved that I hurt him it made him joyous. Very scary stuff. Thank you for opening my eyes and brain to such endearing information!
@@isabellalora6533 most of the time by calling him names that were degrading.
@@isabellalora6533 basically things like “you aren’t a real man” “you aren’t doing anything with your life, you’re a bum” these are things that are just really mean that I’ve acknowledged along the way.
@@isabellalora6533 yes very and I realized he liked it because for some reason he always loved starting fights with my borderline triggers
@@isabellalora6533 yeah how can you love someone who still loves their ex girlfriend? It’s a brick wall. Your love will go to waste: he’s just using you if he’s still in love with his ex girlfriend you can do so much better:)
@@isabellalora6533 yeah that’s the same situation i’m in. I’m not sure maybe it’s like trauma bonding... we are probably used to being hurt by them or something or our families i’m unsure sometimes.
This made me sad even though I hate my ex narc. No child deserves to be ignored.
I fail to understand this....
Same here. I feel sorry for my ex narc as I can now see he's in a dream/nightmare that he can never wake from. Truly sad.
Contrary to this - borderlines destroy narcissists
Do you realise that by hating them, you're still allowing them to control you?
Think about that: They're not even in your life and they're still controlling you, like a remote control car.
@@radioactivepotato2068 Absolutely true! The true escape is indifference. Some of us have been thru all kinds of trauma in our lives and we don’t destroy people who try to love us because of it. They turned to the dark side & need to be on an island, alone with eachother until they get sand kicked in their face so much they realize it freakin hurts and not to do it. That it hurts people.
As a BPD who was pushed to mortify him, i could sense his (NPD) desire to detach from me. He was getting close to me, to the point of dependence which I could feel caused him great discomfort. In that desperation to detach, there was an intermingle of sadness and fondness. Feeling betrayed by his desire to separate, I was enraged and went above and beyond to destroy every bit of good he saw in me. Yes, he started the spark of fire to our shared fantasy but I sprayed every nook and corner with gasoline and made sure every one of its pillar and foundation was burnt to dust. With our bodies covered in ashes from the burnt remnants of what we built together, I could feel myself looking at him grudgingly saying under my breath, "I hope you are happy now,". And for a second, I know as two defunct people, we both felt free from the destruction of what bound us together. I truly had tears in my eyes after your poetic description of the NPD/BPD love affair at the end of the video. My love for him really transcends romantic love. That stage of my BPD acting out (mortification) was really an attempt from my regressed infantile self to destroy the cage (shared fantasy) which transformed us into two dysfunctional little kids via parental roles assignments. Subconciously, I understood the toxicity of the environment we were in because I've lived it as a kid and by destroying that shared fantasy, him and I could be liberated from the dysfunctional love we operate on. And, that really was my gift for him.
This is so poetic. I can’t believe how you expressed such a complicated dynamic so eloquently & effortlessly. Your message penetrated my heart & soul. And it was oddly comforting to read this as someone suffering from bpd who desperately wanted to make my relationship with my narcissistic parter
Im trying everything in my power not to go back. I want to so bad I want him, I need him, i crave him but we are so psychologically wounded, and dysfunctional when we’re together
What makes you firmly believe he was NPD? Also, can't a Borderline do the same thing to a neurotypical because if the borderline is confusing us and inflicting pain, particularly in a situation where they are triggered or splitting us to black then what you've described seems quite similar in many ways to what I experienced back in May this year with my ldr ex who I suspect might have strong borderline and NPD traits. She also spoke of (in a email 2 weeks after the event) of us having this sort of misguided fantasy idea of each other. Personally I never did , except in romantic, sentimental moments as I would with any woman where I was emotionally involved and felt passionate about them. This also occured 16 months after she'd ended our ldr relationship. We were having a 2nd reunion after remaining close post breakup.
@@faddy24😢
Have you ever met her?
@@mec.laurapalmer7155 yes I have, that's why I mentioned our 2nd reunion.
It’s very common for borderlines to become co dependants due to lack of self love etc therefore the constant intermittent reinforcement from the narc creates a trauma bond - hellish to get out of xxx
Exactly! Also overlap of narcissistic behaviour in the diagnose of BPD.
My brother loves women with BPD, while be himself has a lot of Narcissitic traits. My parents and i cut the bond with them after more then 20 years of emotional abuse. We are empty and i feel damaged and pissed. I have to work on healing now..
@@queenofstitcheswarrior2668 ❤️
Most borderlines are codependent too. There is a good video in the odd couple series about two codependents and the borderline forces the codependent/normal partner into narcissistic traits because their codependency is stronger
One of the most masterful presentations on the complex npd / bpd dynamic I've ever seen. Bravo! I'm a diagnosed borderline with 30 years of experience dating ( and marrying and divorcing) narcissists, the trauma traces back to my father of course. I can attest to everything that is presented here. I will add however that overtime the bpd outgrows the dynamic with proper therapy, commitment to self analysis and treatment. Bpd's are more compliant with treatment. With every narcissistically abusive Relationship I gained strength and insight to the point of growing bored of their antics and being forced to learn how to self soothe, provide myself with validation, learn to abstain from dating, sustain the discomfort of all the uncomfortable emotions and resolve the original wound with a qualified trained professional. The narcissists I've interacted with however don't seem to ever reach a healed state, their delusional state is almost essential to their survival they also reject diagnosis and do not comply with treatment. You are absolutely correct about the fact that they idealize us as sexual objects who are "hired" to torture and them and role-play. Attempting to conform to any kind of domestic role will immediately break the bond. Fantastic lecture!
Yes! I also feel like with age, experience and therapy I pick up way earlier on the need of a narcissist to be mortified. Years long relationships turned into a couple of months . In my last relationship with a narcissist I ended up just helping him to detach because I got bored and extremely drained by his ghosting and immaturity. I think he was getting psychotic and enjoyed my suffering a little bit too much and not for the right reasons. It was still hurtful to me to ruin our relationship but in this particular case I felt like there was a darkness within him beyond a false self. It's hard to precisely explain. There was an evil-like presence. I wanted to be out. I think he knew very well he wasn't in control of himself as well.
"Borderline woman is an engine of mortification.... he chose her to destroy him." That totally tracks. I (bpd) used to tell my ex (npd) that he's the spider spinning webs and I'm the cobra that eats him for breakfast. Extended periods of contentment in that relationship was treason. If I didn't test the limits of his power and control, he would tempt my rage and provoke my wrath.
Exactly
I fed his crap back to him. I couldn’t freaking help it 😩 I think to some extent borderline for me but “damn here eat shit you big bully” 🥺👍🏽
Same
Ohhh myy goodddddd! I named my ex spider and he named me scorpion! Like wtffff
@@nandanapalchowdhury4588 This is creepy, I tried to get romantically involved with an NPD individual and I called myself scorpion and her a black widow... Or maybe i'm the NPD and she's the borderline, I haven't figured it out yet, but whatever it was, was unstable for sure.
@@urebeatsgaming7285 basically two predators devouring each other . Like a kind of twisted death pact.
When my relationship with a narcissist came to an end, he had taken so much from me that my self-esteem was in negative figures. I was totally destroyed and it took so long and so much work to put myself back together again.
Same ..im still working on it
Pretty much
Me 2
Mommy
On on that journey now and I am a shell of myself after 12 years, sacrificed everything, he was in recovery, in and out of prison and I never gave up and when we had our son and lived together it became worse but he would apologize and love bomb and always would gaslight me bc I called out every red flag and could feel it in my gut but he would say I’ll take a lie detector test.He even shed tears more than once when I went in on him at the end and everything that you have said everything has been 100% on point I’m happy I now see through this behavior and hopefully one day can help another
This is all so true. The dynamics of an npd bpd relationship are wild. When the bpd person is defeated and accepts the npds abuse, or as you said, they settle down and become a home maker or become stable the narcissist is furious! They lash out til they get a reaction until one gives up or gets bored, then he moves on to the next bpd girl to feed him, hoping she always remains unstable and reactive.
I've been thinking these thoughts for years, and having someone who knows alot more than me, put this into words is just great.
I can relate to this. When you settle and get your life together, he'll abuse you even more. He prefers to destabalize you, because he needs your emotional reactions. Made exactly the same experience. It was and still is devastating.
Holy shit, our relationship was actually better when we were volatile and fighting more. Once I had my son I realized I had to get my crap together and I started working on myself. We had fights but it wasn’t what they were. I didn’t throw/scream at the top of my voice anymore (I did raise it, but out of frustration he would joke through every single fight. I’d beg for him to just have a normal conversation once).
He became more and more abusive and triggered me whenever I started to develops healthy patterns. Looking back, he absolutely kept me “crazy” so he could turn around and get sympathy from friends/family/coworkers about how crazy I was. He’d come home and tell me how he got a girls number and how he flirted with her but I didn’t need to worry because he just wanted to show off to his coworker, yet when I would eventually spiral because I was worried he was cheating again he’d turn around and be like “GOD you are so crazy, everyone says so. I didn’t do anything wrong, it was just a joke why can’t you take a joke” etc etc. he’d ignore me and it would cause a BPD panic attack and I’d blow up his phone all day begging to please be answered and apologizing for getting upset at him, even though a NON BPD person would be upset if their partner of 7 years came home telling them about flirting with other women just to show off to the bros.
This is like a work of art... Your best painting ever. Your words and intonations are brushstrokes creating a beautiful and terrible picture of these relationships. It’s like “how does he know me”...? IDK...but you have captured it here. It’s poetic and shameful and beautiful and so dark...and true. I’ve watched most of your videos...and always learn more...even if it hurts. This is a masterpiece... Thank you so much...!!!
WOW
Agreed!
Agree too
I just discovered him last week and I’ve been binge watching too. It hurts to hear these truths about one’s self but it’s so wonderful too.
It is art, it's a sort of symphony of words to me.
This is flat out fucking fascinating, no other way to say it.
You are on something with this,this is what I just experienced with a narcissist,I caused an injury because he took me there. OMG you are the teacher of all teachers on this subject.
In my case he took me there but the guilt almost killed me
SAM ur humor and ur humility in admitting mistakes is ridiculous and ur videos are the best thanks
Sam THANK YOU for all your videos. I am so glad I discovered your CZcams channel years back when there was little to nothing on narcissism on CZcams and online. Your informational videos practically saved my life and gave me the words to express/describe my experience with my severly narcissistic mother and enabler father. No one believed my experiences and I suffered in silence thinking there was something wrong with my reality.
This is eye opening. When I do well he discards me and is jealous of my accomplishments. When I don’t do well in his eyes he loves me all the more. It’s like I must be unwell in order to be loved by him. I am healing and taking responsibility for my actions and not blaming him or anyone else for the way I’m treated or for the way I have behaved. I’m in counseling every week and I am remorseful but realistic. Im setting boundaries in myself and others for the first time. I’m learning to forgive myself and everyone else. I’m not a victim and I’m not a monster. However, we’re trying to reconcile and I’m so discouraged in this phase. I feel we’ve reached a point of no return in our relationship, but all of our support in church and community really desires us to make the marriage work for our daughter and for God. I now realize I need to change so much that I don’t attract narcissists. My father was a narcissist and possibly schizophrenic and my mother was most likely a borderline but I want to live differently. I think I need to be alone long enough that I change so much that I don’t attract the narcissist.
Is there hope for healing? On my part? On his? What say you?
CAN they work it out and be rati ely happy if both really try? Or does the destruction reach totality for the borderline and she is destroyed, if she lives thru the suicidal idealization ?
Yep, but then they can’t stand to see you doing well without them. So they’ll come back just to try to destroy you again.
There is hope for healing for you, but there are very slim chance for a narcisist. The narcisist needs to recognize who and how they are, and go to therapy. Sam says a victim of narcisms needs therapy to heal also.
Ppl usually leaves a Narcissist, when they finds their self worth. Jazzy.
@@user-jo9bt4gu5rthat’s why the NPD person attacks the persons sense of self worth so heavily.
Wow.. I’m in the middle of this. With someone that was married to a bpd it’s making me crazy. I’ve never tried so hard to build normalcy and peace with someone that always says they want it but I completely become invisible when there’s zero drama. When he pushes me to breaking point & I am “mean” in my opinion - he becomes nice. It’s insanity - literally
@@monicanapier9087 Monica ~ this was a year ago and it finally ended Jan. 21.
You couldn’t be more correct. NPC for sure!
I call him “fish eyed robot” because he has dead fish eyes and robotic behavior.
They are so good at mimicking you think for sure there’s some soulmate thing going on.
Then when you are all in and going thru the “relationship” they have no clue how to function so they keep you in confusion because nothing they do or say makes sense. It was bizarre and cost me an attorney to get out of.
He doesn’t text or call really unless he’s trying to find a reason and there’s zero emotion.
I’m grossed out at best- it’s beyond comprehension. I had to respond before work and tell you how correct you are!!!!
Thank God for discernment and opening my eyes!
Thank you for sharing I am in the exact same situation and just realizing it, trying to figure out how to get out being financially dependent and pregnant…
Your comment finally made my own situation make sense for me. He says he wants peace, but when things are peaceful, he seems restless, irritated, sullen, resentful. When there is any sort of emotional upheaval or life issue drama, suddenly he acts like the man I initially thought he was (or wished he could be). Exhausting.
@@VrilDerzhavamy ex npd would say the exact same thing. i want peace, i want a housewife, i want someone like my mom etc, however he was always miserable despite me trying to be domestic as possible. he only was attentive/sweet to me when i was abusive…
My ex Narc, used to show more interest when I am triggering him, he chases me more all around, when I abuse him he likes it! I experienced it.
You're amazing Sam ! What a precious work you're offering to us.
Thank you so much.
@Professor Vaknin I am convinced that you TRULY are the ONLY professional that should speak on Narcissists and all affiliated topics on same. All the advice I have come across online has never reaped real results like yours in dealing with my spouse who IS a narcissist. You have helped me tackle this from the root and foundation where it matters and because of it I have began to experience a true healing mentally. Thanks to you I am equipped with so much information to get myself BACK and even better. And you are so right about the other popular advice out there to embrace victimhood, which never really felt right to me.I see how I have played a part in my negative experience with the narcissist. I will continue to make use of all your advice until I get to where I need to be.
Really good!! My husband and I are the narcissist/ borderline-ish couple... he’s the narcissist... (grandiose when we met, now covert/ passive aggressive... everything you said about how they treat their spouse is so true!!) and I was diagnosed borderline due to many traumatic events in my life... and a narcissistic mother who was very degrading growing up. Doctors now realized I do in fact have autism spectrum disorder and ADHD, so it explains my lack of realizing I was in relationships with psychopaths... (one of which criminally stalked me for 2 years, 24-7... 😔, now has a restraining order...). My 2 children both have autism, the first is higher functioning (now) but the youngest does need services. That diagnosis helped A LOT. I was diagnosed borderline first due to my anger outbursts, which I would sometimes throw or break my own things like makeup, or injure myself unintentionally in my tirade... but this would be a few times year... and they said it was an autistic meltdown... which is really embarrassing 😔 my husband has come around a lot after we became christians and there’s a Pastor helping our marriage and checking in with him. It’s gotten better over here. We can both now watch your videos as he is not so resistant to the ‘n’ word anymore... I explain it as ‘a cluster of behaviours and symptoms that has a name and the name is narcissism.’ He’s accepting of it now and has begun healing his mother wound. She was a bipolar histrionic who died of alcoholism and drug abuse a few years back. She was very promiscuous and his dad just acted helpless. My husband was severely neglected all his life and terrible thing happened to him. He was locked in a root cellar and they were even held hostage for days by drug dealers 😔 sigh. So I feel for him... I can’t imagine the pain of having those memories as your life... and not a movie you watched... so sad.
Wow! Ur husbands experience makes me want to cry.. I’m sorry.. I’m glad you guys got saved that is going to change and improve ur life forever. Praise Jesus..
@@monicanapier9087 yes!
I think we might be the same person and are with very similar men🤯. Every single thing you wrote and everything the Dr. Has said are exactly my life....I am so shook and oddly happy there are words to describe it all .... thank you so much and also I'm sorry you have to understand how I feel 😕
@@meganpruitt8561 fast forward 2 years and I’m divorcing him now as we speak. They don’t get better, he got 100x worse. Don’t overextend your empathy towards your narc. Sneak and hide money, and leave. Read the book ‘psychopath free’. I’m so glad to be out of this living nightmare.
@@ESumner Oh my…that turned around quickly. I just read your initial comment and although I was sympathetic to your relationship and reasons for healing your marriage initially, I was skeptical because Christianity enables narcissism. You as a woman should always put up with it. I am glad you are leaving
Being a borderline female and diagnosed borderline . This is so informative .
Sincere thanks for all of your work on the subject of narcissism. Amazing insights.
I am the daughter to a borderline and a Narcissist parent. They had a classic love hate relationship and were married for over 45 years. I really am enjoying watching your videos. Many great Hollywood movies have been done exploring this topic. I lived through it!
I'd love to learn what we're the good parts. I'm bpd and ex npd. I want our children to be protected from us. They're in Therapy
Mr. Vaknin, thank you for helping us and sharing this knowledge. It goes a long way.
I have BPD & I married a narcissist. We had a fiery relationship that only lasted about 2 years in total but that little time we both managed to deal a lifetime of hurt. I can’t even begin to explain how much this puts the pieces of the puzzle together for me. I’ve been getting treatment and I have a better self awareness everyday, but in our relationship I was completely devoid of reality. All I could see was the pain that felt never ending to me. The pain I felt like he caused and I deserved. And in turn I hurt him back. I never wanted to and to this day I still feel guilt but I see better how it all came into fruition. He would constantly tell me how numb he felt… how empty life was for him… but we when were in the throws of our arguments he was suddenly alive. He would say I make him happier than anyone else. He’s never felt so much love before. He was worried he COULDN’T feel before. Then… either a.) time would heal, he would back off again… hurt cycle begins. Or b.) I wouldn’t let go of my hurt soon enough to idolize him again. We’d break up… he’d disappear as if we had never met for a while… I feel as if he was punishing me with abandonment for taking him off his thrown. And because I needed so badly to not be abandoned, I’d do anything it took to bring him back. Eventually there was a straw that broke the camels back. I wonder if there’s a closer parallel to his mother than I realized.
When I was younger the pain I experienced as the outcast of a covert narcissist mother was so bad and that of a overt narcissist dad that one time I broke a glass and grind my feet in it because it destracted me from the pain I felt in my heart.
Are you OK now?🌺🌺🌺
I completely understand. I had the exact same parental setup and I cut myself for years to deal with it. 😞
May you heal. This made my heart cry. 😕
I have a covert mom and an overt father. Honestly a horrible combination of people. Mother was an absolute victim, always subtly making be doubt myself and hate myself, feeling guilty and dependant on her, yet I was left to care for my sisters and myself. Overt father was physically abusive mostly, but also completely delusional and controlling. Took me 22 years to realize my mother was truly sick, now I don't know who harmed me most, but I hate them both equally.
I'm sorry you had to go through that, I fully understand your pain. Sending love!
I am so sorry I hope you have better life now
i cant describe how much i enjoy your videos, i have never come across with these perspectives absolutely birilliant,thank you..
I've had a very unusual relationship history and am at a period of my life where I know that if I don't sort things out, even my cognitive performance will suffer. Your lectures are almost hypnotizing in regards to the role they're playing in this process. Thank you
This was surprisingly refreshing to me as a confirmation of what I’ve not been able to describe to others. A helpful step to lift the invisible cloak I unwillingly have been a captive of forever.
The Narcissist is preoccupied with being.The borderlines preoccupation is ' to not be'
Excellent work.
Thanks Sam x
Your videos are so thorough and in-depth. I’m in awe.
Absolutely the best description ever.
Oh Sam, I love your videos. A uniquely qualified expert in the field with one of a kind insights
Wow! I really have never heard anyone say what you have said. It blew me away how incite full you are. I’ve been involved with a couple of narcissistic men and now I’m questioning whether I’m BPD 🤔
Same here. I thought I was codependent
25 mins in and wow. Just wow. This resonates so much with my recent split. This insight gives me all the more strength to let go and move on with my life. Thank you.
“How do I know that I don’t exist if I don’t exist?” Reminds me of some people speaking about enlightenment when the “ego” falls away.
The ex and his girlfriend got arrested for choking each other in public at a casino. I thought it was trouble in paradise, but it seems it’s true love. Cheers!
This is absolutely amazing! I completely understand and I completely can relate! Thank you!
43 minutes until "when we experience pain we are alive"- Mind blown. Fecking brilliant.
I've been viewing your videos for a few years. This one is your best in my opinion. Absolutely brilliant!!!
Totally agree. One of Sam's best in my opinion.
Yes it makes perfect sense I figured it out already but getting the confirmation is GOLDEN!!!
100% 👍🏼
This is the first time I've listened to Sam and....WOW. It's like art
My father was a narcissist and my mother are borderline and I don’t think they loved each other... They didn’t last
This is absolutely beautiful explanation of psychological repercussions of these two parings. As a women with quiet borderline I'm fascinated by learning about this to prevent myself from being vulnerable or emotionally abused again whereas also trying to avoid repeating verbally abusive patterns with a potential future partner. These behavioural patterns in result of my upbringing has made me to decide to never have children. I want to stop the passed down trauma and try and help others if I am able to without not letting myself be taken advantage of again. I need to learn boundaries and self protection through self worth. Thank you so much for this explanation of pain via sex, emotional neglect or mortification and feeling alive for the borderline and narcissist. I wish the world could be healed..but poverty and past abuse is a catalyst for these abusive behaviours. It's so complex.
Hi do you know that there is research from epigenetics, that it is possible to switch of the trauma activated genes, so you don't pass them on
@@tturing5698 I know this comment is old but, how do you do it?
Yes I feel even if they didn't ever leave and you knew they weren't ever going to leave the first scenario is horrifically painful and shameful because they have emotionally abandoned/betrayed you to someone else.
Thankyou for educating us....This is the good part of CZcams...
Thank you Sam for another extraordinary video. The depth of knowledge and articulation of complex subjects are sublime. A masterpiece. It brings unprecedented clarity. So much oversimplistic misinformation out there that causes more harm then good. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.
The best video on narcissism ever!
Borderlines fantasize about being rescued out of a dull depressing existence, and if a narcissist lays on the charm with their usual grandiose mannerism and deluded self ego, the borderline lovebombs in response to the narcissist's own lovebomb. Therefore the relationship is initially is very explosive, but eventually they repel each other. The borderline's destructive personality causes the narcissist to despise her, so even if she threatens self harm as a way to get the narcissist to pity her, the narcissist's response is to simply not care. Remember JR and Sue Ellen? 🤣
So unbelievably true.
Very accurate! So the solutions is that so called borderline saves herself from her depressive and dull reality so she does not need to get involved in this painful deal. Except that she does not hurt herself to get the pity but to prove herself the reason for pain.
This is spot on.
This helped a lot, thank you.
U explained it the best I’ve heard on CZcams Thankyou bless you
Sam is on point! Absolutely brilliant insight. Thankyou :)
My partner always compared me with his mother. I stupidly thought it was a good thing, as a mother is someone good. But now I might consider it was very wrong
Creepy
Mine with his dad who destroyed him , for whatever reason?
Thank you so much for this absolutely amazing fantastic video
The painful truth has brought me to my knees.
Brilliant as usual 👌🏻
Sam I just love you. I watched you almost every day for years and recently took a few months off. I clicked on a video of yours for the first time in a while, and the first words… “So you thought you got rid of me?”….
No Sam, I couldn’t. I’m enamored and intrigued just like the rest of them, lol.
Sam, I've been paying close attention to the uploads about Narcissistic mortification, and there's a few things I hope you can explain in future videos, which I'll get to once I've explained the background of my interest in this subject.
I listen to your lectures, imagining them in the context of myself (representing the N character) and my ex (represtenting the BPD character). I know I am not a real narcissist, but I also know that I picked up narcisstic adaptations and preoccupations (covert) a few years ago when I went through a period of self reinvention (ended a long term relationship, had a physique transformation, new wardrobe, new job, new social circle, all occurring within about 6-12 months of leaving that relationship), and knowing that these narcissistic habits/preferences definitely have been covering for a deficient true self (I was at a low point, I felt insufficient and therefore had to transform into someone who would enable me to 'get ahead' in life finally).
The short, tumultuous relationship with the BPD ex was the zenith of this new self 'project', I'd never felt so content in myself (while the idealisation lasted) but then her brutally discarding me (in public, completely blindsided and humiliated, her callously and sadistically openly devaluing me, after being the love of her life but a weekend before), has left me with what was formally diagnosed as PTSD, though I now believe Narcissistic Mortification to be the more precise description of what's really going on.
This was over a year ago, it was her birthday today, but she remains on my block list (I vowed to walk away) and I really don't feel much closer to being over it. Extreme depression, loss of interest and motivation, substance abuse, social withdrawal, weight gain. On some level I've known that no amount of 'top down' self care will fix what this event has done to me, and that's why I've been uninterested in any post-breakup 'self improvement', as that's generally 'false-self improvement' and misses the target area to treat.
However, the bottom up approach to healing is so emotionally draining and mentally exhausting to understand, that I've been stuck in a purgatory, where I'm just existing, with no goals other than to 'heal' from this experience, yet paradoxically unable to tolerate the excruciatingly painful emotions that this bottom-up work triggers, often only feeling worse about myself after trying to confront these deep fears and then reflexively dissociating when the pain is just too much, and then I'm back to square one. This inability to resolve this crisis within me often leaves me feeling hopeless and it's hard to prevent suicidal thoughts from entering my head, such is my feeling of futility in trying to solve the issue.
Your videos on mortification finally, truly explain what I'm going through. What you said about the only resolution to the wound being the return of the hurtful partner, as they've become a self object - that is EXACTLY how I feel, like her returning and apologising for what she did would instantly rid me of this feeling. Despite over a year's worth of soul searching, I still feel no less in desperate need of reconciliation with her, no matter how much I cognitively know this is a pure fantasy, the heart still yearns for it every bit as hard.
As we're all on the narcissism continuum however, and the paralells between myself and the Narcissist depicted in these videos only go so far, I would like to ask you Sam how much of this is applicable to someone like me - someone whose true self and false self are in a tug of war, but who isn't a bonafide narcissist. Someone who has taken on some narcissistic traits later in life but which weren't present before, someone who had a loving and supportive upbringing from a stable and nurturing home, yet who is stuck in a grandiosity gap of his own creation and who for a long time has lived with a latent feeling of discontentment about themselves under the surface.
How does the average person 'heal' from this experience - the scars of that breakup, the feeling of powerlessness, betrayal, jealousy humiliation and shame that she left me with has completely warped my self perception, and I no longer have a cohesive idea of who I really am (other than that I have been defeated) or which way to turn.
To conclude, I hope you'll go further into this subject in how it relates to most people, and how to move past it. Where my paralells with the Narc being described really diverged was on the subject of seeking out mortification - I've been doing everything I can to avoid it, my entire life, and my ex presented not as labile but as a sweet, sensitive and empathetic girl. It was only when I saw her promiscuous side and ability to be so hurtful, that everything felt wrong, and had I known this side of her to begin with I would never have got involved with her. And since then I've felt dead on the inside, not alive.
Everyone can and do experience narcissistic mortification, it is not limited to narcissists. But only narcissists experience it as estrangement from the False Self and react dramatically, with complete disintegration. So, we normally reserve the term for narcissists. What you went through is the common experience of "partners" (victims) of Borderlines (=dissociative secondary psychopaths) the world over. You are traumatized and scarred for life, I regret to say. But it is the kind of trauma that leads to a sudden spurt of transformative personal growth.
You sharing a real experience helps us. I am trying to figure out if it was just an audition to his funny house of pain.
@@samvaknin "You are traumatized and scarred for life, I regret to say. But it is the kind of trauma that leads to a sudden spurt of transformative personal growth."
The day after after her psychopathic discard of me was when I first discovered BPD, and in the months following I became obsessed with understanding the disorder, spending everyday on bpdfamily.org. I gradually got to the point of having a robust cognitive understanding of what had happened, which was when I finally understood that I needed to 'focus on myself to heal', which up until then had felt utterly irrelevant, after all, she was the one who behaved so monstrously etc etc.
One refrain I'd come across many times from 'survivors' of BPD partners was the idea that this truaumatic experience was a 'gift', in that it teaches you about yourself and forces you to examine your own unhealthy ways of functioning. The 'spurt of transformative personal growth' you refer to is the same idea. The crux that I'm getting to is that I noticed something with the 'gift' group - many seemed to have made peace on some small level with the hurtful other in question. I don't mean peace with themselves, but actual verbal contact on some level with the ex partner.
One of the most ardent proponents of the 'BPD gift' line of thinking explained how she (yes, she - she was NPD, her male ex BPD) 'parted ways with kindness' or 'let go with love' and initiated a short email correspondence with her ex, where they expressed mutual good will, despite a long, traumatic and devastating relationship, where the BPD ex got engaged to someone else within 8 weeks of the final split.
Another senior member eventually became distant friends with his ex, who left him for another man and smeared it immediately all over her social media, after a 2 year relationship which she abruptly detonated. He also seemed to have come to a point of acceptance and perspective over the event.
Another spoke of his reasoning behind eventually unblocking the ex, arguing the block itself binded him to her still. He moved on to be haippily married, she moved on to other relationships, but he seemed genuinely over it.
In my case however, the relationship ending was so abrupt, so insulting, so outrageously offensive that there was no reconcilation of any kind made with the other. In fact, following the event itself, after walking out of the restaurant, without sending a single message, I blocked her 24 hours later (on every channel I could), in an act of self surgical amputation for which I'm still bleeding.
Almost exactly a month later, she messaged my FB business page asking for her ticket back for a gig we'd planned on going to, despite owing me more money than its worth, and despite the tickets being for seats next to each other. After another volley of hurtful, devaluing, abusive comments from her where she showed absolutely zero contrition for her actions previously and invented a separate reality where she owed me nothing at all, I sent her money to the value that the ticket was worth and blocked her on that channel too. I never once abused her or called her names, I never once swore at her. I even wished her a safe trip to Italy and a happy birthday as they were both coming up. Before the breakup I'd bought her a small birthday present, but I refrained from guilt tripping her about it, so she'll never know.
Part of the trouble in moving on from this is the traumatic impression I was left with that has stuck with me and that has soured every moment she enters my consciousness. The immediate feeling walking out of the restaurant that I was foolish, stupid even for thinking the relationship wasn't about to end, naive in not figuring it out that this night out was just to dump me (despite the reality that it wasn't orchestrated, it was done impulsively while she was half drunk) and that I had just been thrown away by a monstrous psychopath, completely alien in thoughts and emotions from me. It was such a weird and lonely shame, that I'd walked into this situation and that I should've known better, that I must've deserved this treatment for my naivety.
I can't help but feel that the 'gift' theorists are only able to speak so philosophically on this because their most recent contact with the hurtful other doesn't conjure images of their ex as a demonic creature inflicting the single worst experience of their lives upon them.
In conclusion, it's my observation that those who call such an encounter a ‘gift’ usually have had a reconciliation with the other to some small degree. Is this necessary to let go, is it possible to 'positively transform' to a degree that outweighs the traumatic scarring as long as the last interactions so negatively taint your mood and thoughts surrounding the individual who gave you these lessons?
I cannot foresee a time in the future when I won't be massively triggered by the subject of her (came across an old photo of her tonight that I didn't realise I had, and my heart pounded just the same as it did a year ago). So how will I ever unblock her? Do I just have to keep her blocked at all costs for the rest of my life (a sort of damage limitation where I tolerate my own repression of the subject) or can a gesture of reconcilliation between us, no matter how small, soothe the wounds enough to allow access to these lessons that undoubtedly lie underneath the traumatic memories?
Is it wise to attempt to soothe pain, or to learn to accept it? As Sam said so eloquently, we are traumatized for life, and to live is to feel pain.
I also suggest to seek gratitude for the experience. Look how much you've learned, it's incredible!
Keep learning, keep going. Freedom is found through integration, not denial, nor even so much through thinking. The path back to feeling the joy of being alive is through feeling this pain and developing the heart to accommodate it.
@@davejardine562 The Buddhist practice of accepting pain and somehow transcending, metamorphosing it into a higher exalted state of being is intriguing and tempting. In my mind there is no doubt that every human born with the knowledge they will die feels enormous pain, regardless of how socially well adjusted (or not) they perceive themselves to be. Yet a part of me feels that this belief system is tainted by a sort of masochistic/sadistic framework and helps in maintaining the status quo as it relates to relationships in either societal relationships or the inner relationship (dialogue) we maintain within our mind. The word paradox comes to mind and I find it anxiety producing.
I learned something very important about narcissists
This is brilliant. totally explains my baffling parents.
This is just fascinating. You make it so real. So understandable. I have not been diagnosed as Borderline although one of my husbands thought I was. I think the last relationship I had (which was a "second-go-round") was with a Narcissist. I don't know if my rejection of him mortified him or not since I will no longer see or talk with him. I have cut him off completely from me. In the end I felt absolute disgust of him, something I have never felt before for any man. In my email cutting him off I know I tried to convey, in as few words as possible, how disgusting I found him. I did love him the first time we met and had a relationship. That ended with me throwing him out. This second time, I fell back in love, but didn't realize that what he was doing was 'love-bombing" me. How I wish I could have you diagnose the whole interaction.
I watch your videos intently. I believe my mother was a Narcissist which is why I am so utterly fascinated with the whole subject. My psychiatrist wants me to write a book about my life and my family. I don't know yet if I will. I will continue to watch your videos. Thank you for making them.
Amaizing, thank youuu. Finally the answer!
amazing, I'm so glad I found your channel
This really opened up my eyes. Great explanations, philosophical connections & apt, clear flow. I would love to go for any lectures you hold live. Let me know if you're in Sydney, Australia in the future.
I discovered your book then your videos. They saved my life.
Thank you for your kind words. Would appreciate a review on the book's Amazon page www.amazon.com/Malignant-Self-Love-Narcissism-Sam-Vaknin/dp/8023833847/
Sam Vaknin Thank you Sam. I will! Your work is brilliant.
Recently my narcissist ex is confessing all his "sins" against me to everyone after his borderline girlfriend destroyed him. I'm not sure why he felt the need to do that. He told me he wanted to give me closure and to heal. I told him I'm good. I moved on without your apology...you can go now...back to from where you came. That borderline needs you.
No offence but his ex ain’t the problem. He is. And you are as well if you think it’s her. And I can tell you now, she doesn’t want him. I was in this situation and sooo happy when someone took him off my hands lol. Good riddance and enjoy.
(Yes, I see this comment is very old)
@@Ciera_Banks wow i was so literally about to type that. i could feel that subtle petty remark as well, and it is not the woman's issue that she fell into the same thing you did, after you...nice projection there.
It's a poem about my last affair. Bravo, Sam Vaknin!
This was extremely heavy to listen to. But insightful. Thanks for the upload.
True Dr! I felt like a mother that was neglecting her child
This is such a great video, thank you for this!
Thank you, professor, this is very helpful.
This was Spectacular
Wow... most enlightening insights. Everything falls into places...
Thank you sam
@ 35:19 this has something to do with the phenomenon of "Limerence" as described by Dr. Tennov.
I know one narc-borderline duo, and the narc in this couple is now fixated on another woman who he can't have (because she is married to his friend). This new woman is presenting a huge challenge to the narc in turn, making him feel "alive".
Narcs can experience love as limerence.
samvak.tripod.com/lovepathology.html I mention limerence in several of my videos.
Dear Sam Vaknin, i stil love your video's well done have a good day!!
You are brilliant on this topic
My validation of the truth in your explanation, was weeping 🥺
Try to not watch the screen. I can't help the way I look. Apologies ...;o))
"the risk to losing your wife to the animated corpse from above..."🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😆
Perfect explanation...my first conscious thought within the first 5 minute? “Ugh..yeah...I HATE that game...”
I can understand more now why my relationship last six years with a covert narcissist. I have a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder and it makes sense now.
Thank you
Thank you for this
Wow this is absolutely incredible, I'm a borderline and both my sons father's are narcissists, as are all my ex partners in my whole life and this completely explains why things have been this way my whole life 😭😭😭
I thank U so much for opening my eyes and sharing Ur intelligence. At least I can accept and try to heal myself.
Exact same situation as you 😢😮
Excellent video
such a brilliant insight! thnx
"I'm Really Gone Right Now And I Cant Run Away From Or Think My Way Through This.. You're A Very Very Different Individual.. You've Got Me Tapped Into Emotions That I Swore To Myself That I Would Never Feel Again.. Ever.. And For That, Until The End Of Time When God Is In Front Of Us Both, I Will Thank You.. You Have Put The Perspective Of Life On A Whole New Level For Me.. Its Worth, The Importance Of Time And The Emotional Ties To Ones Mentality.. I'm Grateful For That.. I Came Outta This, Not A Man, But A Being.. A Hollow, Cursed Being.. And That's Who I Am Forever.. This And Future Experiences Will Haunt The Depths Of My Soul And I'm Ready.. I Taste And Feel It.. And It Burns.. I Will Endure And Look Forward To The Pain.. I've Become One With Them.. My Being Isn't One For Saving.. Not Anymore.."
If this is anything like what self-mortification is for a narcissist, then I guess I understand now.. I received this message 6 days ago from my ex/father of my 2 children, whom I believe to be a narcissist.. He has currently been out of the country for 8 months, but even still, we split up (he abandoned me and our older child) when I told him I was pregnant with our youngest almost 2 years ago.. We haven't had any consistent contact until only about 2 months ago.. It's been up and down, but I feel like it finally reached its peak 6 days ago.. Through only a text message exchange, I lashed out at him when he tried to pity play, telling me he has mental health issues going on, he's taking antidepressants, and how I am towards him now drives him to the point of feeling scared for himself when alone with a weapon (he never made mention to ANYTHING LIKE THIS before).. I was so upset as to how he was trying to make me out to be an aggressor that I reminded him of REAL antidepressants that used to be on my dresser, which we have talked about before; counseling I have been in for 3 years since being with him; and the last time he ever step foot in my house shortly after I got pregnant, where he was drunk and essentially raped me, when I was crying, pushing him, and yelling at him to stop.. After I sent that, immediately after I texted him "I hate you!".. I sent it again 4 times, in the following ten mins.. I have never said this to anyone ever in my life, because I don't hate anyone.. But in that moment, I truly hated him.. He replied with the above message..
I haven't been diagnosed as having full blown BPD from my therapist, but she has concluded I have 5 of the traits of the disorder..
This video brought me to the brink of real tears.. It is extremely enlightening and makes complete sense, as I sit back and reminisce and relate it me and my ex's entire relationship.. I have known him since I was 15 years old.. I'm 29 now.. I can only pray for the best for our 2 children.. I pray they don't grow into toxic behaviors and instead have healthy, meaningful lives and interpersonal relationships..
@@alejaparadaxo Have they commented on this video?
@@alejaparadaxo I have found her channel.. Thanks so much for the suggestion..
Write a book my dear share this with the world
@@gracious6461 Thanks so much.. I have considered writing a book several times.. Our history is something else.. There have been sooo many dramatic, life-changing events that we initiated by him through malice.. But somehow or another, I would always take him back.. I finally gave up with the pregnancy of our second child.. I just couldn't take the toxicity anymore..
This information is so heartbreaking and true.
The last minutes of this video made me cry. Cry and laugh ( I can never separate my cynicism from the overwhelming despair). It was heart breaking. When I think about us - the skinless (me) and the ghost in the frozen castle (him)- I suspect that the fleeting moment in which he lost the "form" to become "The becoming" itself and the second I was permitted to alleviate my personal hell of nameless and always changing emotions by infusing them into the pillars and walls of a timeless fortress I was never able (or wanted) to build, that moment created a mythology of love. It maybe lasted few months, or maybe only few days or even hours, but it was enough to give a purpose to everything that came after. As If true love HAS to betray itself, it has to miss itself: the tree of love grows on the lovers bodies but they will never taste its fruits, otherwise it can not even have the dignity of being called love. I miss this. I really do. But I know that a new definition of love and life and sense of purpose has to rise from the ashes of this last disaster otherwise even Sisyphus' punishment has more meaning than the one we inflict upon ourselves.
This was amazing
Always on time 💕💕👍
Thanks this answered a lot of questions for me.
Thats why I love your ideas Sam. I watch, and I finish your sentences before you speak them and I am mortified. Mortified by how intimately I understand the patterns and behaviors that you illustrate. I am fully willing to accept that I am a narcissist, I tell myself. Then I convince myself that I can't be a narcissist because my self-loathing is total. Then you remind me that this is why.
As an aside, how can it be that we are so attuned to identify and cherry-pick BPD women from such a small cohort of the total population? Seems like an impossible task, if it were chosen with conscious intent.v
@@sandrathomas2893 yes, thats 25% which would be the minority by a factor of 3. Yes its too many, but I doubt it would make any difference. We would find them.
Because we share the same wounds, but with different defences. I attract almost exclusively narc men, for me I think it’s because we feel ‘seen’ by one another. There’s a child-like innocence to it in the early stages, and for a moment those wounds feel licked.
@@Pandurz The difficult part is that 'normal' women feel boring after experiencing the attraction phase with a borderline. Its intoxicating to the extent that its difficult to be in thrall without it. I can be in the presence of a woman most would consider extremely attractive and feel absolutely nothing at all, even though I can objectively acknowledge that they are an attractive person. The phenomenon is definitely something that is operating above the level of my concious awareness or control.
Beautiful explanation I mean it’s interesting and I understand this relationship ❤ Thank you so much Dear Sam
Deep analysis of the true nature of Narcissist & Bipolar Relationship, ➡️ they team up to re- experience the pain again, Booaah. That was heavy 👍🙈🙊🙉👍
pretty sure hes discussing borderline personality disorder, which is an entirely different thing than bipolar, which is more to do with mood.
These videos are an invaluable learning resource and make me glad to not have a personality disorder. I do have some maladaptive traits, but who does not? I am grateful for the capacity of sufficient self-awareness and perception to navigate my relationships. Displaying mutual kindness and appreciation, trust and a common desire for harmony are necessary conditions. I have been incredibly picky in my choice of romantic partner.
Very eye-opening. This explains the weird relationship between my dad and mom, and now my daughter's weird relationship with her dumb jock boyfriend. Is Borderline an inherited personality trait? My daughter acts exactly like my mother. I've often asked my daughter why she keeps choosing these "bad boys" and trying to tame them instead of finding a regular stable guy with a job. She would always say that normal guys are too boring. Then one day I observed her talking to one of her ex boyfriends and she was shockingly verbally abusive to him. He was a textbook narcissist and yet he just stood there are said nothing. I couldn't figure out why they were so in love with each other, each acting suicidal if they were apart for even 1 day, then in the next moment they couldn't stand each other. Just like my mom and dad. Now I know why.
Ehhh I wouldn’t say borderline is inherited.... most of the time it happens through childhood trauma (most of the time due to narcissist/borderline family members). And the trauma could be anything; from a small perceived slight to straight up abuse.
And because it’s embedded from childhood, it’s extremely difficult to treat (we’re talking therapy and lots of it- google DBT and CBT).
Basically because the incident caused them to develop unhealthy coping mechanisms (subconsciously), and a lot of people aren’t even diagnosed until their 20s.
Wishing you and your family may heal from it. I know it’s hard, but try to be patient.
❤️A Borderline in recovery
@@nikkicrisp8563 - thanks for the information.
Wow. This is almost poetic.. It makes a lot of sense.
Real talk!
This is useful, as my father had NPD and my mother BPD, and I never, ever got it. She does hate him. He married 2 more BPD women after my mother...
Fatal attraction ....as a borderline i can say Superb video Sam!
@@freedomfighter9976 i am still with him is the only person that make feel up..but i know deep inside that is a toxic relation 😔
Are you still with him? I was just discarded a week ago and I miss him so badly... He has been the only person able to contain me, but he has a new supply and that's the only thing keeping me apart I can't, I don't share
But I feel like I'm never gonna find what I had with him
Thank you looking forward to your videos