AVS 25 cal slugs (.254 Diameter) accurate in Kalibrgun Cricket & Kral Jumbo
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- čas přidán 1. 11. 2019
- In this Video I will showcase my 25 caliber AVS airgun slugs in .254 diameter. Very accurate in Kalibrgun Cricket and Kral Puncher Jumbo out to 100 yards. AVS Slugs are available on EBAY.com
AVS slugs can be purchased for 10% less than on Ebay. Please Visit AVSslugs.com
Here is a link to the 25 caliber slugs
www.ebay.com/itm/401943979709...
Thank you, I am glad to see someone put the quality testing into products that they sell and explain what guns/ barrels that they work with. To many people say to buy a bunch of different bullets and see what your gun likes. It saves me a lot of time when you explain the details. I have had no luck with any flat based slug out of a choked barrel but I could not figure out why except that the base of dish or cup flares out and makes the seal. Now I understand the reason for a .254 most everyone just has .250-.252. I want to shoot slugs but I don't like the fact that a new slug barrel costs as much as a new gun in most cases. It would be great to find a slug for my bullboss that shoots great and stays in the magazine but I think that you have helped me with my prod. This video could have saved me $500 and got me out coyote hunting a month ago with my Armada. I ordered a slug barrel for it 2 months ago. Dang! Keep up the great work!
Thank you for the comment. Yes, That's why I have been trying to fit a slug to my guns rather than the other way around.
Right on Stephen! speaking of fitting, I'm fitting a .223 barrel to the RS tonight. Have one in 1-16 for onger slugs, now fitting a 1-20 for lighter faster Pills. Next, the .172 TJ's.
Keep up the Great Work Stephen!!!
Ain't it fun? :
Stephen, I absolutely love your stuff. You are covering a lot of ground in a short amount of time.
Keep up the awesome work.
Thank you, Haji! This was very involved and expensive. I made 3 dies and endless bases. But it's all worth it.
Hajimoto what are your thoughts on AVS slugs working with the 22 and 25 cal gauntlets with the output pressure increased mostly the 25 I'm interested in and what grain I'm really impressed with these AVS slugs
@@skinnymitchairgunbrotherho7152 all of my testing with slugs has taught me that they need to either be traveling fast or spinning fast and the Gauntlets very slow 1:20 twist means you will need power if you want the velocity required for a slug to be effective.
@@AirVelocitySport on your oio
Your R&D is on point thanks for your hard work sir keep it up
Real nice groups , 254 in 36 and 34 gr , one of the best reviews I've seen on slug performance , 254 36gr got me intristed .
Very descriptive study. Thank you. I'm watching you.
Have two 25s and another on the way waiting for your AVS slugs. Thank you.
Very nice video, I learned a couple things from it.
Man this is great stuff. Putting in the real work. Excellent!
I will be trying these in my Sumatra. Ive been told it has a .251 un choked bore w/ .254 lands. It likes the HS and i been told there .253. Getting me a nice set of Vernier calipers like...today hopefully
Awesome! I love watching your experiments! I was surprised the BC was so much higher in the 34 gr than all the other weights.
It's possible the wind kicked up? There was a bit of a head wind.
Nice one mate for your efforts in making the slug you do sum interesting stuff and great information like your videos myself I have a sub 12ftlbs 177 UK
Yes Dutch regulators ar the way forward s
Keep up with the good work 👍
Good stuff!
36 grains are working perfect with my hatsan airmax.25 cal thanks for the great info thanks sir
Thank you for the feedback. I'm glad they are working for you. May I ask if that's the lothar Walther barrel or the hatsan barrel?
Is hatsan barrel
@@julionnieves5685 Thank you
Hatsan claims their barrels are a dead copy of L/W. Humm. Hever heard of a AG company claiming they copy another more established company. LOL!i
Knife
very great vidio brther.i like.👍
Welcome back😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃
I made some .25 cal slugs to try and shoot out of my Mrod and wasn't too successful because the marauder's chocked barrel. Does your cricket have a choked barrel? They shot fine out of my AF condor.
Great job Steve ..man I bet you had fun but I bet you got tired at times also I got tired just watching the video ..but awesome job buddy thanks for sharing man
Yes, very exhausting. But I do love this stuff
@@AirVelocitySport I'm the same way I got my TAIPAN long 25 Cal. to shoot JSB 34 grains at 945 fps lol crazy insane gun I love this gun so much ..I try to shoot every pellet around 905 I think that's a good speed for pellets ..so eBay it is ok thanks buddy
@@AirVelocitySport Steve I want to buy a tank I live down here by the gulf of Mexico in Texas what size and kind of tank do you think would be good for a bunch fills I have taipan long 25 and my nova liberty what would you recommend
Get the biggest tank you can. I use two 88cf SCBA tanks. Usually 1 tank gives me somewhere around 12 solid too offs on my Kalibrgun Cricket.
@@AirVelocitySport ok awesome thanks
Hi..I saw your tests with the Kalibrgun.25 ... I was asking you, in order not to make a mistake, which slug you tried is suitable for Cricket Tactical.25 barrell 60 polygonal?
You ought to think about making them in .30 cal too. Alot of people are buying the newest version of the F/X impact mk2 including myself and plan on getting the .30 cal slug liner for it. The impacts are flying off the shelf's and actually getting hard to find in stock.
can a freezer compressor be used for filling a pcp?
if not , what changes are required in freezer compressor?
Hi Stephen- I know I'm chiming in again, and I'm chiming in late, but I wanted to know if you had a chance to watch Matt Dubber's recent video explaining velocities (subsonic, transonic, and supersonic)? He does an excellent job explaining why slugs perform better at certain speeds. But he emphasized the importance of avoiding the transonic range when using smaller caliber slugs. That would be 950-1100 fps. But he also emphasized the importance of trying to achieve muzzle velocity as close to the transonic range as possible as this will maximize the retained velocity/energy without inducing instability from the shock waves that come from transonic and supersonic speeds. He said that transonic in specific is the worst for creating instability.
I guess I said all that to say this.... Pellets like a very narrow range to maximize stability. Say for instance the 33.94 JSB's like to be shot 900-940 fps. This is the proven range where the physics and aerodynamics create maximum stability. But if you shoot a .22 pellet that fast, it's going to spin off and destabilize. It needs to be shot slower. Slugs on the other hand like to be shot FAST, regardless of caliber! If you can push them as close to the transonic range as possible, then I think you will see massive improvement in the size of your groups. If you could push those slugs 950-960 fps at the muzzle, I think your group sizes will diminish by 50%.
I'm not sure if your regulator has enough "umph" in the plenum to push them that fast, but if it's adjustable, and you can push them up the edge of the transonic range, I think you will be very happy with the performance.
Best regards, and thanks for the great videos. BTW.... Ordered some of your .254 slugs today. Can't wait to test them out.
What size and weight would you think might be a better choice for the .25 Bullboss? I have tried a 2 different slugs from eBay and you didn’t have the .25 available at the time and since then I put the gun back on a pellet diet and pretty much parked it due to the weather and the range time needed to use it. My backyard is not big enough or safe for an.25 slug. Warm weather will becoming soon so gotta find a slug that fits it. Any suggestions from your experience or feed back would be most helpful. Thanks for all you do for we airgunners. Thanks to you, my Liberty’s are absolutely wicked! Love them the most of all my guns. Take care.
Hey Heath, I would say to try lighter weight slugs like 28 or 30 grains if your gun is stock power. If you tuned it for more power I would say to go with 32 or 34 grain slugs. Glad to hear the liberty is awesome. I love my liberty and now there is Air Venturi Avenger PCP which is basically the libertys DNA with externally adjustable regulator and hammer spring.
nice accurate mate .thanks for the great video.May i able to know that the .249 29.5/29gr slugs could work in the original Cricket .25? the barrel is Lother Walther.thanks again.
I purchased your .25cal dish based slug 30 grain. They load in the Armada magazine just fine and chamberd smooth. I shot 8 rounds@ 50 yrds less than .5" group . The rifle is new and after I run 300 pellets through it I will test your fine product . Your slugs were only a few fps. slower than the Benjamin pellet.
Hi James, thank you for that feedback. I'm finding that more and more that Airgun slugs need to be somewhere between .0005" under the groove diameter to .0005" over groove diameter to achieve the best stabilized projectile. Airguns are very different from powder burners in that there is no gun powder to help seal the slug when it passes down the barrel. Any air escaping around the grooves that could get in front of the projectile could de-stabilze the slug. Airgun slugs needs to fit just right of a very small but tight.
I too have the Armada. So far how have these slugs performed for you? Have you tried them at longer distances? I have done no mods to my rifle, right out of the box. I have owned it about 7 months now and have probably put somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 pellets down range from 25 yds out to 65 yrds (max my field of firing safely, lol)
Good Stuff Stephen! I have found that removing the choke, and fire lapping the barrel, followed by a good polish with a product such as simichrome or flitz followed by a re-crown, usually shrinks groups by one half or better.
This seems to be the case regardless of brand of choked barrel.
So far, I have .223 slug Brownells barrel liner, .250 L/W, .257 TJ's x2, PP700 .216, and a .172 ready to test.
Keep up the great work Stephen! ;
Thanks for the advice! I will have to watch some videos on Fire lapping to better understand the process.
Don't you have to remove an inch or so from the end of your barrel to remove the choke? You're giving up potential power and velocity by doing this. That would explain why you have to re-crown the barrel. Now fire lapping is another story. This will soften the edges of the lands and remove any other rough patches through the barrel. This is agree with 100%. But I don't agree with cutting off the end of the barrel to remove the choke. it's better to just buy an un-choked barrel and retain the power. This is just my opinion.
Most chokes are 1/2". some times a little more, usually 1/2" on most quality barrels though. In a pellet, of average weight, this is 5 to 10 fps. MAX. Yu get more velocity variance from shot to shot than thaa. so no loss what so ever.
However, fire lapping the bore, and re-crowning will usually pick up 10 fps or so. so it ends up being a wash.
It takes me less than an hour to fire lap, and 20 min or so to re-crown. I re-crown any barrel I fire lap whether I remove a choke or not. Re-crowning is simply good insurance when lapping by hand or firelaping.
I have bullet shooters that can do under 1/4 to 3/8 inch at 100 yards. Must work. LOL ;
@@mikel9162 If I came across as questioning your expertise or experience, I apologize. You sounded like you knew EXACTLY what you were talking about. And you confirmed my concern for removing the choke. But by fire lapping you compensated for the loss of the 5-10 FPS of power, while also increasing accuracy. I haven't done my own fire lapping, but I have a buddy who has the kit and he fire lapped a LW barrel for me. It did indeed make a difference. But if your barrel twist is too slow, and your stability is already marginal, then fire lapping is like putting a band aide on a gaping wound. The "help" you get will only be marginal.
I was curious about your .221 barrel. What diameter slugs are you using for the rifle? Where do you get them? The reason I ask is because many people are using the .217 or .218 Nielsen slugs on their .22 LW barrels. According to LW, the bore and groove diameters are .215/.221 (choked and un-choked). So I'm assuming the choke version chokes down by .001" or .002" on the groove. If this is the case, then the groove diameter at the choke is .219. If guys are shooting .217 or .218 slugs, this leaves a .001" or .0005" concentric gap around the slug. Essentially, it's not making a proper seal. If the groove diameter of the barrel was .217, then the slugs would be perfect. The lands AND the grooves would engage. I believe this is why the the accuracy of .217 or .218 slugs out of the LW barrels is only ok, when compared to gun manufacturers who have engineered barrels to utilize slugs with .217 or .218 diameter- like FX. I think if someone would make a slug that was .220 or .221 in diameter, you would see drastic improvements int he accuracy of the LW barrels.
With 2000 psi behind the projectile, .001 or .0005 is plenty of space for air to creep around the gap on the grooves and potentially destabilize the slug. That's why I asked what the is the slug diameter that you're shooting from your .221. All of the aforementioned info is my opinion. It's my theory. This also applies to the LW barrels in .25. They have a bore groove diameter of .248/.254. That's why Stephens slugs will outperform the .249 or .250 slugs available from the mass producers. Because they actually SEAL in the grooves of the gun.
I still believe the evolution of air rifles shooting slugs is in in infancy. I'm thankful for pioneers like Stephen, Matt Duber, and Chris Turek who take the time to make videos and invest their own money to help people who share their passion.
Take care Knife. You rock bro! And so do you Stephen!
The barrel is a firearm barrel. All I use now. TJ barrel liners are very good. After all, firearm barrels are designed for bullets. Just makes for less trial and error. .
Currently I am testing .22 rimfire liners from
brownells. they are measuring .2212. I size to .2215 for on of them, and .2214 for the other.
Fire lapping as you say, will not fix twist. It will only improve accuracy in a barrel with the proper twist for the length of the projectile. It will however greatly the intervals between cleaning the barrel.
Slugs lead much quicker than pellets. Much more friction. It helps with friction, so the higher fps. My .257 went from 35-45 shots before a patch needed to be used on it, to well over 120. After a hand polish, it is now 200 go 300 before accuracy drops off. Depending on the bullets, and lead mix used.
It can be a frustrating yet rewarding journey. But once the right combo is found, ver-very worth it.
Hope I made sense as I have been up all night prepping another barrel. LOL All that is let to do it the crown. Whew!!!
Enjoy and have fun!!!
Thanks a Zillion!!!
Cricket ❤
Very informative, great shooting from both guns. Off the subject but are you still using Yong Heng? If so, have you had any major problems out of it? Love your videos btw 👍
My first yong heng needed to have the upper, high pressure side, piston replaced. I bought a second Yong Heng for $245 just to make sure I'm never down. It took 3 weeks to get the Piston part from AliExpress.
@@AirVelocitySport Thank you for your reply, that Puncher jumbo is a beautiful gun..
Hi sir thanks for all your videos, can you help me with the type of barrel that my umarex origin has, I just got .217 .22 slugs from you and I just wonder if is going to work for my rifle or should I keep the pellets thank you !new in pcp rifles btw!
I just ordered a custom barrel from Russia in .25 with a twist of 1:14. It's for a high powered AF Condor. The barrel is 24" long, and it's polygon, carbon fiber wrapped. The grooves on the barrel are .254, and the lands are .249. These slugs will be PERFECT for that barrel! I can push those 40gr slugs to 920 or 930 FPS at the muzzle. I'm definitely going to order some!
I've also been experimenting with powder coating my slugs. The powder coating is so thin, it does zero to negatively impact the geometric concentrics of the slugs. Plus there is ZERO leading inside of your barrel. If you start with a clean barrel, and use powder coated slugs, you will never have to clean it. The powder coating also acts like Teflon coating on the slugs. You will notice an increase of 15-20 FPS per shot when using them due to the lubricating effect of the powder coat.
That sounds very interesting. Please let me know when you place your order and I will include some other weights for you to try. Also, what do you powder coat the slugs with? Thanks for the information.
@@AirVelocitySport I'll send you an email. The whole powder coating set up I use is less than $100. But it's VERY effective and easy.
Thank you!
@@AirVelocitySport contacted you through your eBay store
Hey Trinity, sorry I don't see anything. My email is AVSslugs@gmail.com
Great info. How do those slugs fit in the factory Kral magazine?
They fit fine without getting snagged. I have tried upto 40grains without any issues.
Next level would be experimenting with different twist rates(barrel)
Curious about how the would work in the .25 Flash. I see someone below said they are working good in the Airmax but I'm not sure that's a choked barrel like mine. I tried the NSA 34gn with mixed results. The NSA's are .250 and quite stiff to push down my barrel, not sure how .254 would be.
I too had inconsistent results from .250 slugs. I was also worries that the 254 slugs would be way too tight. I pushed it through with a wood dowel and it was tough. But the results are amazing compared to 250.
I ordered the .25 kral arms jumbo and same compressor you have. I'm looking at your videos on this kral. But don't know if you have one on how you got more power out of it. What have you done to it. Shimmed hammer spring, open up transfer port?
Thanks, and happy shooting 👍
Yes, I have two videos on increasing the power in step by step. About a year or two ago. Thanks and all the best!
@@AirVelocitySport thanks, I'll look for them. And thanks for your videos, you got me into the whole 22xx platforms. When you experimented on yours. Your custom stock was awesome also. I was going to make one, but I have like you way to much into the 2240/2250/1322 😂.
Take care 🇨🇦👍
Has anyone used these in a Hatsan Flashpup .25? Does your barrel need to be “leaded in”?
*test* subscribed 👋🏾 Stephen the slugs have no ill effects on the cz barrel? Thanks👊🏾
These are made of soft 99.9% lead. I have had no problem with either my Kral or cricket barrel
Air Velocity Sport
Thanks for getting back to me I didn’t think you was going to reply . I too have a kral bp and three crickets in all three calibers. I have a you tube channel and would like to at some point try some of your pellets to review. I also put out a video about high profile CZcams channels that do not as a courtesy sub to the young channels starting out or even respond
Have you tried these in the FX slug liner barrel Superlative detail. Great video Thanks Tom
Thanks Tom. No I have not yet tried them in FX slug liner. I will update as I get more information.
Hey Steve great video. Can you tell me where you got the cradle harness for your pcp tank. Please thanks!
I made it out of 2by3 lumber
Just a suggestion. Do a video shooting your slugs in a Benjamin Marauder. Might increase your sales if we knew they worked in a common air rifle.
Hi There! Have you tried these Slugs in any of you Modded 2240's Yet? It would be Awesome to See How they expand in those Guns...Especially the Max Flow Valve gun!
So first of all I wanna say hello I love each and everyone of your videos you and hajimoto got me interested in pcp air riflesI have purchased a .22 gauntlant and I am grouping .75 inch at 45 yds with all the mods I have watched from you I love it my kids love it and I am getting rdy to order a jumbo and an ati from your videos just want to say thanks I may have questions on the Altos reg . Let me know if I may ask questions
Thank you! I'm glad you and your kids enjoy watching. Yes, feel free to ask questions. My email is avsslugs@gmail.com. I don't look at it everyday but I will answer you eventually.
Have you tried a gas check or integral gas ring? Always wondered if they'd work?....
SOrry, I do not know what a gas check or integral gas ring is.
Do you have a variety pack? I don’t know which weights my Air Venturi Avenger .25 is going to like and I hate buying a whole pack of one weight that will just collect dust if they don’t shoot good out of my rifle.
Yes, on my website www.avsslugs.com I would recommend 32 34 36 grain cup or dish
Wow wow and super wow fantastic groups way to go air velocity sport I am thoroughly impressed the 25 caliber gauntlet and I think the 22 both have a1:17.7 twist rate I'm curious as to what your thoughts as far as your slugs working with the gauntlets with the output pressure set higher what's a 25 caliber I'm almost positive I can achieve at least 900 feet per second with 32 grain slugs maybe the 34 also thanks for all the hard work and sharing it with us
Thank you Mitch! If you like to try them I can send you a sample set to try out. Just send me your mailing address to AVSslugs@gmail.com I would great appreciate if you could let me know how they work for you.
I would love to try some out address sent to your email and thank you very much I will let you know my results I'm so excited
hey there Stephen im interested in your slugs, im shooting a AF condor 24in barrel stock. i cast 50 grain slugs sized to .250 and they group well at 50yd power wheel at 8 . i was looking at swaged slugs and almost order some Nielsen slugs but saw yours on ebay and checked you out. reviews from from other AF shooter are 34.5 to 39 grain HP slugs preform well out the condor and talon. do you make these sizes?
Sure I can make what ever you would like. Just send me an email with your order and I'll send you an invoice. They will be 10% less than I sell on ebay
whats your email??
Oh, sorry. AVSslugs@gmail.com
👍👍👍
hi bro!
can you help me? pls, how to is velocity muzzle cricket 0.25 slugs 900fps? what is hammer spring you use?
My gun was professional tuned and modified when I bought it.
Very professional, as always.
Can you confirm lengths?, I am wondering if they will fit in a Huben k1 (11mm max).
Anyone shooting Stephens slugs out of a K1 .25, and if so please give feedback.
Thanks.
Thank you! The 40 grain is .398" or 10.1mm should fit length wise. Just remember these are .254" diameter I have the measurements on ebay
How are you finding the consistency with the Altaros regulator?
It is really good. I was a little surprised because how little i could find regarding it but Altaros and Huma are both great.
@@AirVelocitySport i have just put an altaros on my my .22 puncher jumbo and after some messing with set pressure and hammer spring and hammer weight it is awesome. I sort of copied your cover for the regulator and it looks good too. Keep up the great work it's most entertaining.
Thanks Ian!
Have you tried these in a RAW?
How do you think they would shoot in a Hatsan choked barrel like the airmax
The only way to know is trail and error. If you tell me the groove diameter of your barrel I can give a good suggestion.
Absolutely Amazing
What You have done Making your Slugs👌🏽
I’m very Curious to know if you can do a Special Order ?
I’m looking for something similar to the FX Hybrid Slugs .357 caliber (68 grains)
But I Want a Slug that’s less than 68 grains.
Preferably around 52 to 62 grains.
Is this POSSIBLE SIR ?
And I would Love to shoot Your Slugs.
Available on Ebay
I’ll be purchasing some soon. I found them on eBay. Which ones do you think would best in my Umarex Gauntlet 25 cal? I’m sending it to Hajimoto for the full tune so it will shoot better than stock. Keep your slugs lubed and your air dry. Later
One buyer on Ebay named rides_98 said his .25 Guanlet loves the 28 grain.
Air Velocity Sport Thanks. I guess we know which one I’ll be getting.
genial
gracias
Orders placed today. Hogs are waiting. Lol
Thank you. I will get them out in the morning.
@@AirVelocitySport No hurry. Fishing next couple days. Thanks
saw ya on ebay, how would this work in my .25 hatsan semi auto bullmaster
I can't say for sure as I have not tested it myself but I did have someone tell me it did well in his bullboss. If you do decide to try a sample pack go directly to www.AVSslugs.com as they are 10% less than eBay. eBay charges 10% seller fee so I pass the saving on to the customer via my website.
Are you planning on working with bt65 .25 if so I'm not having much success my self
I'm hoping to get some feed back on other guns. I'll let you know if I find out anything
@@AirVelocitySport how much would it be for me to get some samples from you and give you feed back
@@chadglover6593 please contact me at avsslugs@gmail.com
That diameter and length of slug can be used in any .25 barrel?
Generally, shorter slugs work better in slower twist rates and longer slugs work better in faster twist rates.
@@AirVelocitySport . What is the diameter of the nose?
thanks for the reply
For .25 caliber the hollow point diameter is .07"
I have some questions about your Nove Liberty and the slugs you shoot from it. If you could Message me that would be awesome
My email is avsslugs@gmail.com
Hola amigo muy buen video pregunta se podra disparar slug con un cricket 22
Your slugs are great bro and so is your shooting! But there's a problem with slugs in general...they act funny! Too many fliers breaking the consistancy. This also happens with every slug type I try to shoot out of my fx impact as well as the cricket. I think it may have to do with excess lead fouling inside the barrel, bec obviously slugs have more surface area in contact with the barrel grooves, as opposed with skirted pellets. One suggestion bro, try to clean the barrel from the start, and also between every 5 shot group. If you get significantly better results, then we're on to something.
Thanks I will try that. I usually clean the barrel when accuracy starts to suffer.
Hello Joe I’m the guy that brought the rifle from Troy Hammer 60 fpe you think your slugs work in my rifle?
George, my name is Stephen. But I like Joe too. If it's a Kral barrel it should work but I can not say for sure. I had to polish the crown and front 10" of the barrel to get it just right.
George your barrel was polished with JB Bore Paste and the crown has been recut and polished.
Great video too Stephen!
Do u know that hi ma makes a regulator for Kral jumbo now u prob do but I figured I would tell
Yes they do but the plenum is smaller than the altaros so to make bigger power levels the huma reg needs an extension tube adding.
yes, I bought one for the M15x1.5 bottles (Kral Jumbo) because I thought my Altaros reg failed but it didn't. Now I have a second Huma regulator sitting around
You have any 50cal
My Taipan veteran long .25 shoots 29g NSA slugs @942 fps does hole in hole at 50 yards....
My Cricket and Jumbo just didn't like the NSA slugs or any .250 diameter slugs.
How can i get your slugs in Pakistan?
where is the bullets link on ebay?
www.ebay.com/itm/401943979709?var=&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2648
Thank you friend I tried to buy more information that you gave me and the product can not be sent to Brazil srsrssrsr more thanks for the link.
Send me an email to AVSslugs@gmail.com with your order and I will create an invoice for you
Later you need a web page..I live in Puerto Rico..I can't buy your products from Ebay..
Yes, I'm building one now. Should be up in a week
@@AirVelocitySport thanks looking forward to ..want some. 20g for my taipan veteran long..
Available in .22?
Yes, on eBay. Under avs_slugs
@@AirVelocitySport thank you!
Huma
Nsa not so good