The Witch-king: The Fallen Wizard of Númenor | The Red Book | Episode 1
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2024
- The Red Book Podcast ran for 12 episodes. This is the first episode and it relates to the development of the Witch-king of Angmar over the course of Tolkien's writings. Did you know that the Lord of the Nazgûl, the Witch-king, was once written as a Wizard from Númenor, of the same order as Gandalf? In this episode, I explore the development of this figure from the earliest drafts to the character we recognise today. Why did Tolkien make these changes? Does any part of Tolkien's original idea for this character remain in the finished tale? This episode was adapted from an early video on the channel.
► Chapters:
0:00 - The Red Book Podcast
2:48 - Intro
3:58 - The Witch-king of Angmar
7:26 - The Istari (Wizards)
10:31 - Unknown Origins
12:52 - Interlude
13:10 - The Wizard King drafts Part I
17:09 - The Wizard King drafts Part II
18:51 - The Wizard King drafts Part III
21:40 - Thoughts on Tolkien's changes
25:20 - Outro
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► On-Screen Notes:
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► Thumbnail art :
LOTR: Eowyn & Witch King Angmar - Coliandre (www.xaviercollette.art)
► Audio:
The following music was used for this media project:
The Death Of A Dark Star by MusicLFiles
Link: filmmusic.io/song/7297-the-de...
License: filmmusic.io/standard-license
Angelic Interlude by Tim Kulig
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► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#tolkien #witchking #numenor #onering #sauron - Zábava
The Witch King is a fascinating character and hearing how he developed into the character we see in LOTR is just the sort of thing I really enjoy. I do wonder if once Tolkien decided he would not be a member of Gandalf's order that that led Tolkien to change from Wizard King to Witch King in order to avoid confusion with the Istari who were often referred to as wizards.
Maybe Warlock King would've been better, or more confusing.😋
@@Enerdhil Witch King rolls off the tongue a lot better than Warlock King, but yeah
Witch being the descriptor ascribed to a male (albeit a practically divine being) struck something in me when young, yet didn't evoke anything of the traditional witchy tropes. I still prefer Witch being used for both sexes than resorting to Warlock
It's odd, still feels discordant today and for reasons.
The more naturalistic Wych and etymology of being pliant, bent...twisted, is where I start to think I'm getting somewhere close. Though I dare say Tolkien would have spelt it that way if he'd meant it so.
Not that ten year old me knew much of etymology.
OT...merriem-webster is the Wikipedia of dictionaries. It's dire when it comes to etymology of words, prefixes and suffixes. Case in point, wych is merely a different spelling of -wich a suffix meaning salt pit.
Unless you pay, that is.
me too.
I never knew about this earlier concept of the Witch-king. I used to be one of the people who assumed he was a king of Númenór in life. But I eventually realized that didn't make sense, as a Númenórean king becoming a Nazgul would have given Sauron control over that entire kingdom, and the later events of the Akallabêth would have never happened.
As for the fallen wizard idea, I'm guessing one reason Tolkien abandoned it was when he realized that Saruman would be one of the main villains of the story; having two of the primary antagonists both be fallen wizards would feel repetitive. One of them gaining power through a ring (but losing their free will in the process) not only added variety, but also demonstrated the hubris that is common in the Tolkien's villains. Actually _seeing_ the end result that a ring of power has on a mortal also makes Frodo's struggle as a Ringbearer a lot more understandable and relatable to the readers.
I have been watching all the major CZcamsrs who focus on Tolkien content, and while you're not the first I believe you have become the finest of them all.
Thanks for checking out the first episode of my new Podcast. Hopefully there's an episode 2!
If you'd like to listen to this on Spotify, The Red Book Podcast can be found here: open.spotify.com/show/1ie7z2PKCBJVpk1U8bk2Qo . Those looking to support the channel can do so here: www.patreon.com/theredbook
I just discarded my Spotify App because I wasn't listening to anything on Spotify and the App was eating a lot of storage space on my tablet.😒 I guess I have to download the App again for the third time.🙄
I have it on Anchor (anchor.fm/red-book) that allows me to add it to other platforms. Did you have any other platforms in mind? I'd happily see what I can do in that regard.
It is now available on a couple of other platforms (still sorting out more) -> anchor.fm/red-book . You should find Apple there.
@@TheRedBook
I just click your link to Anchor and there was a message saying sorry but they don't have that page.
I tried it there and it does go to my page.
My favourite videos of yours are deep dives in how certain things change in the legendarium.
I have been enamored with middle earth since I was in 6th grade. I'm 47 now and still love it. Great channel my friend.
A veteran of Tolkien :D glad you are enjoying my content too!
This was fantastic, Steven. I have said before that you don't need to support your work with visual or audio materials, although the audiobook clips were fantastic. Just your voice and content are enough for me.😁👍
I rather like the idea, expanded with Gandalf's explanation of how some folk would be tempted to take the Ring to "do good", that the Man who became the Witch King was equally so tempted. The nature of Sauron seems to have an element of corrupting good where the end is the same as co-opting or compelling evil to service and thus it seems plausible that one of the Nine might be given to a Man who was very much one of the more powerful and perhaps influential Numenoreans,, more aligned to keeping the freindship of the Elves and reverence for the Valar. How soon after getting the first of the Nine the effects of corruption and adherence to evil would show we probably cannot really tell, but at the very least Sauron would have "eyes and ears" with influence in Numenor or one of its overseas possessions.
It was said, first the men became rich and powerful, even more so with their rings, highly respected and influential in society, until the effects of the ring began to cause them to waste away, each to their native resolve..
The Witch King of Angmar always intrigued me and I think it would make a great film.
One of the best things about Tolkien is that people aren't necessarily connected. It makes the world bigger and more mysterious. Like the Witch King being a fallen wizard makes him known. We get that. It shrinks things and is more of a cliche as we've seen that same type of thing many times. But to have his origins be unclear and and not connected at all with Gandalf elevates the whole feeling. Like this must be quite a big and mysterious world if there's someone so powerful and legendary out there who our heroes know so little about.
You need to understand ( not you personally) that Tolkien was still making changes to the Silmarillion up until the day he died. J.R.R. would never have allowed it to be published because of this.
@@gib59er56 While true, recall that Tolkien tried to get the Silmarillion published at the same time as Lord of the Rings. Authors often keep working on things that they haven't published... the act of publishing kind of sets your ideas in stone. So just because he was working on it doesn't mean he didn't want to release it.
I would say you're partially right, though, in that near the time of his death, he was working on some rather large alterations and unfinished ideas that may or may not have made his new final version. So, AT THE TIME he wasn't ready, even though he had actually been ready years before. If that makes sense.
@@Swiftbow Hey!! Awesome to hear from a well read Tolkien person. I like what you laid out as a point in the status of the Silmarillion through time. My take basically comes from Christopher. I did not re-read my comment cuz I believe I know what you are replying to. Chris said he felt the his Dad really did not want it published as he felt (prob. subconsciously) that it would "kill him" , rather, it would be a sign of the end, or a farewell, idk how to put thought to word here as it is 4:28 a.m. e.s.t. So, yes he did pitch Sil to Raynar Unwin ,his publishers during the 40`s and maybe 30`s and 50`s as well. So I am taking the thoughts of Christopher and , in a way , it is almost directly from J.R.R. himself as those twain were incredibly close, and Chris was THE son who loved his father and his "world" so very dearly. Just think of how much Christopher has given us. Amazing, beautiful and done with passion and love. I think we agree on this matter, and thank you for your thoughts. Mae govannen mellon ni ! Namarie (for the present) !
hey, congrats! can't wait to enjoy this.
You rock, Steven! Praise Ulmo, Lord of Waters!
I'm sorry your old content was stolen, and I'm sorry your channel isn't as popular as it deserves to be.
FWIW I think you are THE channel for Tolkien, and I advertise where I can. Good luck, Steven. I'm really cheering for you.
Also I could listen you for days. I understand the need to play the CZcams game, but I am IN TO the long form content
Appreciate that! While I don't have many subscribers, I seem to have many great subsribers who engage with the content. That's a plus!
Sweet. I’m gonna relax and listen to this. Time to chill
Engagement comment for the algorithm. Great video.
"Enough with introductions"
Begins introduction section
Hehehe this made me giggle love your content and thank you so much for pouring through all this information for years
Phil’s audio book is amazing. Ive listen to it at work every damn day. I’ve read the lotr books like 40 times. I know it has a lot of Peter Jackson’s vision. But I like to think I can understand Tolkien’s Intent I’ve listened to it every day for years as well as read the books very regularly. Your channel is really captivating.
Brilliant as always ,the witch king is a fascinating character
Awww yeah, this is the content I’ve been waiting for from you! Enjoying this first episode a lot.
Oooo let’s take a look
A strange time to upload it 😁 I like podcasts, they can really fill some empty time slots like relaxed evenings and travel time. Also recently I listened to your podcast with the Mellon Heads, which had a really fun, joyful dynamic.
Yeah, it would be fun to do another one with them.
For mine, this was really a first effort and first attempt. I've not planned out a timetable or anything like that. This episode was live for a few days before I made the video. Just put the video up last night since I hadn't uploaded in a while.
My friends and I are getting together for a 16 hour day of food from LOTR inspired cookbooks, films and legendarium trivia.
I am going to be reviewing your material as part of my prep.
I’ve always like the idea that the Witch-King was one of or the only one of them men who became the Nine who fell willingly.
I've always felt he would be willing - everything about him seems like he'd be the greatest evil among them.
Nice first episode hope you have lots of fun doing this project. for the algorithm.
Thank you for your research and that which you create. Such a wonderful pleasure to discover your channel. Please know that your efforts are appreciated.
Fascinating, loved this video and the topic of the Witch-King of Angmar. Great job Steven!
Great podcast! That the Witch King has such great intrinsic power prior to his final corruption clearly points to him being a man of Westernese. What is interesting is that three of those that became Nazgul were Numenorean. So what would differentiate him from the others? A possibility is that he was indeed of the line of Elros. Not a king (as was noted), but instead a second son of a king, or a sicon of some other noble house with royal blood.
I look forward to listening to each and every podcast
He's such a badass character.. With a badass sword!
Great episode. Looking forward to listening again
Good stuff as ever Steven. I like the format too. Keep up the good work.
Easily my favorite LotR CZcams channel. Criminally low subscriber count.
Thanks :D
And yes, it sucks. Think my average now is like 6 a day or something. Not getting anywhere with subscriber count!
@@TheRedBook Here's hoping it turns around. FWIW you've earned a new Patreon. :)
@@mosesgunn6937 I noticed :D thanks for that and glad to have you on board! Hope you will make it onto Discord as well.
EXCELLENT reading! I'm looking forward to Episode 2. Thank you so much!👍👍
Fascinating discussion, and I like the format. Looking forward to more podcasts!
Your content is always by the book, this was again fascinating, kudos
Great to hear an informative analysis and background to Tolkien writings. Thank you.
This discussion makes me want to focus on the magic Men were capable of using in Middle Earth. For example did the Mouth of Sauron gain some of his abilities because of his ties to Sauron or could any man do what he did absent an angelic overlord? Were there "good" magic users in Numenor as sorcery is associated with drawing on Morgoth? In ME magic is never a neutral mechanical force but always tied into divine power in someway whether Valar, Melkor, or granted as a part of nature to the Elves by Eru.
Obviously there is not a whole lot on this topic.
I enjoy your style! You ask interesting questions! Thanks! Keep it up!
I listened to this on Spotify and just wanted to say that I hope there'll be plenty more! Fascinating thoughts as always and quite perfect for a shorter walk.
Glad you enjoyed it, I'm just in the process of recording the second episode as well!
Nice work dude
Love your work mate! Keep it up.
I think it is an enjoyable podcast, I look forward to the next episode! The fact that we can trace the evolutionary path of Tolkien's Legendarium in general and certain characters in particular from his earliest notes to the latest version is one of the most captivating aspects of his whole writing for me, and it's cool to see this topic in good hands :)
I think I'd like to do a similar thing with other characters in the future - tracing how they changed. Obviously not every episode but it's a good idea for future episodes.
Amazing as always! I'm a sucker for all things Nazgul.
This is amazing! Cant wait for episode 2
Concure with the others. These are the topics that I didn’t know I needed to know.
Cheers Steven, best of luck with the podcast.
Keep up the great work fella.
I will be following your podcast on Spotify with great interest! 😊
Congrats on this!
Just love it!
That was deadly as usual !!!
This was great keep it up
The silmarilion is like the old testament and everyone who’s interested should read up. It makes even reading just the fellowship alone so Much more fascinating. It’s an epic homie. This Chanel is awesome. I don’t know anyone who cares this much about Tolkien’s writing and I just appreciate what you do. And nerd Of the rings. And a few other dudes. Broken sword and shit. It honestly opened up a world of books I didn’t know I needed to read and content I didn’t know I should watch. Thank bro 🤘
Please make the possible continuation of the unfinished "New shadow"
Something that might be interesting to consider is how important this character is being Sauron's lieutenant - as Sauron was for Melkor / Morgoth. Clearly this character was incredibly important and his arc may have links back to the tales of Melkor and Sauron themselves - but it would require some good thinking to tease out. His creation and nature clearly should be major plot points. It is surprising that this was not really resolved given the amount of depth given to Melkor and Sauron, however I guess there is only so much one can write in a lifetime! Some thoughts about themes in his demise are that he was slain by innocence, divine providence and his own actions (e.g. the leaf blade for the latter two points), which are major themes throughout the book feeding into the concept of good ultimately conquering evil.
On the topic of the Witch King being a wizard at an early stage, being a Maia would definitely complicate the poem of the one ring relevant to the Nazgul "Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die". You might be able to argue that in a fleshy cage a Maia is a kind of mortal man, but Tolkein decided not to go there. It is really interesting to think where his 'magical' power came from. Perhaps it is related to the idea that all beings have some kind of innate 'magical' ability (e.g. telepathy), and this human was particularly good at it and became a lay wizard / non-Istari sorcerer. Perhaps he had some strange connection to Melkor and went willingly to Sauron when he heard his (metaphorical) song. Sauron might of lent him some of his own reserves, but one might imagine that he would expect his chief lieutenant to be powerful in his own right.
Another thought (totally baseless of course) is the role of the blue wizards - perhaps some strange and powerful characters like the Witch King and the Mouth of Sauron might have actually been those Istari - somehow captured and converted over the millennia. I wonder what he had planned for those characters, at what point he decided the number of five Istari, and then ultimately decided to do away with two of the five. He was quite happy retconning other things, but he didn't do it with the number of wizards, which was interesting.
This is *MY HOUR.*
The podcast is a great idea for sure
Thank you for this content. It is fantastic.
Very welcome :)
“Trotter???” 🤯
Keep up the good work thanks
Thank you very much :)
Love your content. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
I love the sound of his voice!!
That recording reminded me of Darth Vader confronting Obi-won Kanobi.
very nice your on spotify for work :) btw what do you think of the book announcement the fall of numenor.
Even though the Witch-King has a fallen wizard is a good idea, I much like him being a man of Numenor. I can see him in the temple of Morgoth giving sacrifices as a priest-like figure and a possible apprentice to Sauron
Excellent research and podcast!
Since Tolkien's views of the Blue Wizards changed over time, I wonder if he may have intended to have one of them be the Witch King. Maybe turn or kill the other.
That's a common theory but Tolkien's last writings on the Blue Wizards doesn't hint at anything like that. The Witch-king is a mortal man, the Blue Wizards arent and apparently they aided in stopping forces from the East overwhelming the West for the War of the Ring through uprisings and rebellions.
@@TheRedBook Agreed. I was only musing that as the concept for one changed, that may have further influenced Tolkien to change the other. Indicating how the legendarium further evolved in a continuing, inclusive process. 😆
lets all pour one out for our boy trotter
Thanks!
Yeah boiiii
When comes the next episode?
I hope soon
I tend to make one of these a month :)
All of the Kings of Numenor are accounted for, but not all of the children of Kings who did not inherit the sceptre. So the Witch King could have been a noble or even a Prince of Numenor. However, I get the feeling that he was a Numenorean who had come to middle earth before the sinking of Numenor and had carved himself out a kingdom, probably among Easterlings and was ensnared when Sauron hid in the East.
Ha! You're Steven (Stephen?) you're obsessed with the Tokien Legendarium and you produce the best Tolkien content on YT.
I love the witch king.he is my favorite Character.
Maybe one of the Blue Wizards?
a very Well- done review! But, it might be....that as Isildur was nobility, but NOT royalty. That so was the Witch-King. To me it's very interesting he was always used against Arnor and Gondor. A Black Númenórean (most likely to me). I wonder if he was a Lord of Lond Daer? Which was founded by King's Men. Could he have met the Blue Wizards and Glorfindel? Tar-Palantir was succeeded by his nephew (who seized the throne), a sea captain who warred against the coastal people. That nephew was the twenty-fifth king, Ar-Pharazôn, who in the year 3255, he sailed to Middle-earth. Seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron submitted to the king's authority, and he was brought back to Númenor as a hostage. Could this be where the Witch-King and Sauron met? Sauron soon became an adviser to the King as Tar-Mairon, and promised the Númenóreans eternal life if they worshiped Melkor. With Sauron as his advisor, Ar-Pharazôn had a 500-foot temple to Melkor erected, in which he offered human sacrifices to him. That would certainly be more understanding of the how this happened, IF, Sauron had past out 3 Rings of Power and had their positive-seeming effects shown now. Sméagol's extended life and possible increased physical toughness shows how THAT might have made Sauron's words seem true. The Witch-King did NOT go with Ar-Pharazon to Aman. He never would have returned TO serve Sauron. And Sauron knew that.
I like the Witch King as the Wizard King... As you say, it would open other discussions. However, having him be of a different nature from Gandalf's makes him more terrible; he's more of a mystery, thus a more frightening foe for the White Rider.
I don't think it makes sense that the Witch-King would be an Istari. For one, Sauron didn't control any other Maia including Saruman nor the Balrog or Smaug for that matter as Fire Drakes were Maiar fire spirits. There were Numenorian kings outside of Numenor in places like Umbar and further South. Colonies created by Numenorian princes in generations prior to Akallabeth.
We do know the name of the Witch-King of Angmar. He was the Númenórean Prince Er-Mûrazôr, or just Mûrazôr, the son of Tar-Ciryatan and Theanil, he was the younger brother of Tar-Atanamir. He was also the only human given a ring of power by Sauron before he became King. He was already a ring-wraith when he ruled Angmar as the Witch-King.
Nope. That's just a fan theory and isn't written anywhere in the text.
An Age before, a smith of Numenor
forged weapons to defy the Angmar king.
The writhen sword that Meriadoc bore
was fated for the battle of the Ring.
The lady Eowyn brought her own blade
unsuited to her brother's combat form.
No tales survive that tell where it was made
nor whether distaff combat was the norm.
The morgul-lord prefered to wield a mace
a brutish club of which he'd grown quite fond,
in tribute to another Age and place
when Morgoth swung the hammer known as "Grond".
Black powder makes its MiddleEarth debut,
but Tolkien's not enamored of what's new
Do you remember the reference for the second age wizards, by any chance? Given the new Rings of Power series (still unconfirmed whether the stranger is a wizard) I'd be interested to look into that further.
Yes, if you want to read Tolkien's thoughts on that then check out The History of Middle-earth - XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth - Part Two - Late Writings - Last Writings
Cool
Suburb as always.
Any chance this could make it to apple podcasts? Thanks for what you do!
Should be up there now!
@@TheRedBook Left my review :)
@@crusader9576 Oh cool :D I can't see it yet but I hope it's good!!
18:25
_Sauron not coming except when victory is assured..._
Of course. In the last year of the 2nd age, he himself came defeated anyway, even losing the ring.
There is a thing I never understood: Why was 3rd age Sauron more powerful _without_ his ring than late 2nd age Sauron with it?
He's more "powerful" because his enemies are weaker. His 3rd age resistance (militaristically) pales in comparison to the forces of the Last Alliance.
@@TheRedBook
That makes perfect sense. The late 3rd elves seem a shadow of their former selves by comparison, and Arnor and Gondor were split.
"Turn, Hellhound!" Dernhelm snarled. The Morgul-king
can't know his lease on MiddleEarth's been torn.
The undead servant of the Ruling Ring
was helpless to no man of woman born.
Already, Birnham Wood's marched up the Coomb
and much that looked like wisdom's proven daft.
Before his Mordor-Lord, he'll meet a doom
he never dreamt for all his dwimmercraft.
professor Tolkien seemed dissatisfied
with Shakespeare's climax to the Scottish play.
The oracle need not have baldly lied
but women feel excluded from the fray.
Amid the carnage smoulders a romance
the lady Eowyn rocks chainmail pants.
The balrog's motives nowhere get explored
could he aspire to wield this parlous thing?
He's no mere worm, to stash it in his hoard;
a maia'd be a monster with the Ring!
Olorin'd held it once, but let it go;
he wasn't hither-sent to dominate.
The One's not his to wield, or to bestow.
This Age, it's little folk hold their world's fate.
While Gandalf fell, ring-bearer bore it East
through Lorien, where Time seemed not to pass.
unwitting how the mage threw down the beast
returning through his darkness, at the last.
Of all the characters to face the test,
for Tolkien, humble Samwise comes out best.
In my Minds eye..... I personally feel that he's from the East...and that he was maybe a student of one of the blue wizards and maybe also he was part numenorian..... Having him come directly from numenor would have been in my opinion too much.... However in being a half blood pneumonorean trained by one of the blue wizards in the east makes a wonderful background for the witch King or wizard King... Being a half numenorian he would have still had the main traits of a numenorian the tallnes, long life, powerful spirit, intelligence etc... And later he became king of the Angmar region.... Anyway that's my thoughts but thank you for such a astute opinion.... I do believe that you're one of the best if not the best loremaster of tokens works
A dismal world, and every path is steep
as Meriadoc plods back into town
but he's sworn oaths that he intends to keep
they'll get back up when Hobbits get knocked down.
The lady Eowyn stood not alone
the morgul lord was fool to overlook
her ally with a sharp sword all his own
be he a Brandybuck, or doughty Took.
When Fangorn Wood has marched on Isengard
The undead Angmar king confronts his death
'though Tolkien points no footnote toward the Bard
the reader calls to mind scenes of 'Macbeth'.
Old oaths his father's fathers swore before
king Theoden fulfilled for Denethor.
How do you explain if he is Istari, accepting a ring fo men, and subjugation thru it to Sauron. As a fallen Istari he would have been more powerful and useful with his Istari form vs wraith form.
There's nothing to explain. The idea that the Witch-king was actually a Wizard is an old version of the tale, not the finished version. Plus, there were no "Rings for Men", they just happened to be rings given to Men later.
The heir of Isildur called back the host
Who'd turned their coats an Age of Man before.
The Dark Lord's minions fled before such ghosts
belatedly reporting to wage war.
This Shadow Army came with sword and spear
but never got to demonstrate they'd bite.
Their enemies that didn't die of fear
cast down their arms and ran away in fright.
The ships of Umbar bore them all aboard
to turn the tide when everything looked grim.
When Dernhelm's thrust unstrung the Morgul lord
few save the Hobbit spared an eye for "him".
For those who long ago had broken faith
the call to serve's atonement for a wraith.
You rule!
Whats your take on the new book being g put out this year. The broken sword made a video on it
Didn't notice, I don't watch their content. As for the book, I think it will be interesting. The Second Age material is scattered over a few different texts and it will be cool to have it all in one place - especially for research. Maybe calling it The Second Age would have made more sense? I'm looking forward to the commentary. I'm not expecting anything I haven't read elsewhere but it will be a good book I think!
"Death!" roared his riders Eomer led them
spotting his sister flung on the fallen
king in his noon-years eager for killing
Rohan's anointed at the sun's rising
Theoden's fallen gone to his Fathers
Eorl's wunderkind worthy of honor
Slew the Black Serpent Sauron's surrogate
midwinter minstrels shine his memory
shattered by Snowmane bane of his master
When he's embarrowed women will mourn him
Last of his bloodline crown must pass sideways
Son of his sister starts a new mounds-row
Eowyn's brother eclipsed in battle
Theoden's fallen gone to his Fathers
Dropping his home-guard rode to save Mundburg
Bright flairs the sunset Third Age is ending
Can the eagles fly between Valinor and Middle Earth after the fall of Numenor?
Alright ramblers, let's get rambling
I kind of always wondered if it were possible that one or even two of the Nazgûl could have been the Blue Wizards…
No because all the Nazgul were mortal men.
@@TheRedBook Right, I understand that, now. But I wonder if it would have been possible. Considering that Gandalf was too scared to even touch The One Ring because he knew the evil it could do through him, I wonder if the 9 rings had similar powers over the Istari as it did the mortals.
@@Pub2k4 - Well, Gandalf is only scared to touch the ring in the movies. He actually touches the ring in Bag End and throws it in the fire. He's certainly scared of being offered it and using it - even for good. The Istari were in the shape of Men but their spirits were still of the Maiar, meaning they couldn't fade and be corrupted in the same way as mortals - but the Nine rings were certainly sullied and corruptive. Just not to the extent of the One. The Istari would not become Nazgul via the Nine Rings, that's for sure.
I really like the idea of the Wizard King. I am sure Tolkien thought of everything before he realized he had to change his origin and then his name. I guess he could not have made one of the Blue Wizards become corrupted by one of the Rings of Power for Men.
To have Gandalf and the Wizard King at equal strength at the entrance to Minas Tirith would have made that scene even more intense. It would have been beyond epic. As it stands, I don't think the Witch King could kill Gandalf, who is infinitely stronger, despite Sauron's power boost.
The Istari still had mortal bodies, despite their power. That's why Saruman could be killed by a knife in the back. "Infinitely" is a very loaded word... Gandalf was powerful, but certainly not infinite. Even powered up, he wasn't the match of any of the Valar, or even of Sauron.
@@Swiftbow
Eru empowered Gandalf the White to accomplish any task needed to endure victory for the western alliance. That would mean IF Gandalf had to fight the Witch King, he would have won.
@@Enerdhil By that logic, Gandalf would have been empowered to obliterate Sauron's entire army by himself, and then they could all saunter to Mount Doom at their leisure and give Frodo some encouragement.
It's not much of a story is Gandalf is Superman. And he clearly isn't. Rather, the book is pretty clear on Gandalf's power level: He was amped up to the same strength that Saruman (as their original leader) had when they first showed up. That's why he's "the White" now instead of the Grey.
There seem to be a lot of complaints regarding Gandalf vs. the Witch King in the movie, and yeah... that didn't quite happen in the book. (They faced off and the Witch King lit his sword on fire, but Gandalf's staff didn't break.) Still, reading it for the first time as a kid before the movies came out? Gandalf was in for the fight of his life. And, by his own words earlier, the prophecy made it plain that the odds were stacked against Gandalf.
@@Swiftbow
Actually, I never think about Gandalf actually fighting the Witch King. It is a ridiculous what-if concept that Tolkien would never have accepted. So if it happens, of course Gandalf would have to kill the Witch King to save Middle Earth, meaning he would be given the power to do so. So, yes, it is stupid and leaves Frodo and Aragorn out of the equation.
@@Swiftbow
What "prophesy made it plain that the odds were stacked against Gandalf?" Eru Iluvatar did not send Gandalf back to die without fulfilling his mission. There is no way the Witch King wins in a sword fight. The "prophesy" said that the Witch King would not die by the hand of a man. Gandalf isn't a man either. Right?
My theory is that the Witch-king was Isilmo, father of Tar-Minastir, the 11th king of Númenor. I have an extensive study on this.
I don't think he was any named figure. I don't see any evidence for it being Isilmo, except non evidence like the translation of his name or being passed over. I accept he was dead by 1731.
@@TheRedBook Isilmo's accepted date of death may be a mere historical record. It is possible that there is a date of death due to absence.
Exactly but that's where these theories fall apart for me. Every one then relies on re-reading the text or reinterpreting it to make the theory work due to a lack of actual evidence. The date of death can't be later than that date but why don't we just imagine the date was due to him not being there but it's not written anywhere that this was the case but let's imagine it. Can you see where I have the problem? To me, it would be written somewhere - even a scribble or note, but it's not. If Tolkien knew the identity of the Witch-king I truly believe he'd have written it somewhere.
@@TheRedBook And I'm glad it's not! It leaves a dose of mystique and horror as I think about it. Enjoyable half an hour 🙌
@@TheRedBook What was the translation of his name? Given Tolkien only admitted
he was a Mortal "Lord of Numenor (NOT a King)" Would it not be possible to have
been a "Black Numenorean"? If Tolkien DID Know his true identity, could he have
left some hints of who he was such as Isilmo or his younger son , Er Murazor?
Sauron the White replaced Melkor; is it that out of place that the Witch-King was waiting his turn to take over Sauron's place? Even Sauron didn't remember his own name. I believe that's why Aragorn calls him the "Dark Lord"; a title, not a name. Also. the Witch-King would be a man, unlike Sauron. He may just be waiting to move up a rank. However, Gandalf saying He was a member od our order" would make him seem more than a man.
The witch King can't act against the will of sauron. There's no motivation to replace him because he couldn't even think of doing that. There's also no reason to think sauron forgot his name, it's the mouth of sauron who forgot his name.
Eowyn was nog allowed to fight in wars by order of Theodon so yea she never killed a living thing. But then again she did killed a mumakil before the witchking. But maybye that is only in the movie adaptation
Yeah, that's just in the movie. However... she does kill the Fell Beast (and most likely some orcs) before taking out the Witch King.
Merry had some orc kills to his name, too, so neither of them qualified for the previous stipulations. (But BOTH of them do for the final.)