The Servants of Aulë: Sauron & Saruman | The Red Book | Episode 2
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- The Red Book Podcast ran for 12 episodes. This is the second episode. Two of the most prominent figures of evil during the events of the Lord of the Rings are The Dark Lord Sauron and the Wizard Saruman. Both of these figures were once servants of the Vala Aulë. Is it a coincidence that they both once served the same Vala? I explore all three figures and why these servants fell into corruption. What is the connection between those who are concerned with the physical matter of Arda and the potential to turn to a path of evil?
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
2:20 - The Valar and the Maiar
3:55 - Sauron - The Servant of Melkor
6:50 - Sauron - The Dark Lord
8:00 - Sauron's Fall
11:54 - Sauron's Motives
15:27 - Interlude
15:46 - Saruman - Head of the Order
20:30 - The Devices of Saruman
22:09 - Saruman's Pride and Impatience
25:40 - Interlude
25:57 - Aulë - The Smith of the Valar
29:39 - Aulë's Naivety and Impatience
31:49 - Aulë's Humility and Selflessness
33:54 - Creativity and Evil
37:20 - Outro
► Support the Channel:
Support the channel through Patreon - / stevengibb
Support the channel through CZcams - / @theredbook
View Members-only Videos - • Members-only videos
► Supporters:
Patricia, Dovid Nachson Albright, Moses Gunn, ncv1993, Oliver Falangan, Seraphim38, Victus Schmmidtt, Douglas Harley, Ian Haydel, Joe Raffurty, Master of Dungeons, TB, Adam Dallas29, Carden, Carson Miller, Catherine G White, Connor Mulders, David Lafferty, Ess Jay Dubs, Jim Loughlin, Molly Barger, Nima, Ryan H, Sko, VoxPhantom, InconceivableDreamer234, boi sophies
► On-Screen Notes:
Not included
► Artwork:
All artists, images, and links to sources are found by following the link below. If you would like to see your artwork appear in videos or discuss the use of your artwork on the channel, please get in touch.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
► Thumbnail art :
One Ring to rule them all - mentoskova (deviantart.com/mentoskova)
► Audio:
The following music was used for this media project:
The Death Of A Dark Star by MusicLFiles
Link: filmmusic.io/song/7297-the-de...
License: filmmusic.io/standard-license
Angelic Interlude by Tim Kulig
Link: filmmusic.io/song/8805-angeli...
License: filmmusic.io/standard-license
► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#tolkien #aule #valar #saruman #sauron - Zábava
The part about Aule not being jealous of others and seeking AND giving counsel contrasts notably with Treebeard's description of Saruman "I told him many things that he would never have found out by himself; but he never repaid me in like kind. I cannot remember that he ever told me anything".
Great point there, I like it and agree fully. For Treebeard not knowing everything about the history of the Wizards, he sure has Saruman's personality down due to his own experiences with him. Hopefully you don't mind me incorporating this part into the inevitable future video when I adapt it for the channel? :D
@@TheRedBook Of course not!
And also the egotistical usage of knowledge in the lord of the rings? Sauron teaching the eldar how to craft rings of power in a manner they would get connected to the one ring of his. They were taught in an almost sectarian pseudoesoteric way, in a hermetic group called gwaith-i-mirdain. Then Sauron going all mad when elves discovered what he was up to commanding the rings were handed to him because without his knowledge they wouldn't have obtained them (like a copyright situation). He kills them, and then when Saruman tries to emulate Sauron he finds out all the secrets of the forging of the rings are behind the black gate of mordor in Barad dur, known only by Sauron himself. The orcs saying that they never know anything regarding the plans of the great eye at some point in the book (can't recall sorry, I'm not as pulcrate in the sense of knowing were a certain quote or info is in the books as some of you are) and that only (yet not always) the nazgul are the ones who know. Then finally the examples of the witch king and the mouth of Sauron, great men who grew ever greater under the service of Sauron and as a recompense they got immense knowledge in sorcery and necromancy. Seems information and knowledge are sort of a pyramid scheme throughout middle earth, the more important/powerful you are the more knowledge you possess, and sometimes this knowledge and this sort of pyramid scheme is useful to control others. Also remember when Melkor created the dragons he at first had them in total secret.
PD: Edited it because of some typos lol.
@@TheRedBook ccr
Does he who fails to act, when he could, with the ulterior motive of not getting involved, do harm?@@Sagittarius-81
There is no shortage of knowledgeable people when it comes to Tolkien lore...I, myself, have read all published material many times over, and explored other material as well. However...your insight is what sets you apart. I've listened to several of these videos, now, and have learned a great deal. You go beyond stating the 'facts' and explore the relationships, meanings, reasons, etc. that give the facts their importance. Truly a work of art. Your pacing and diction is spectacular as well, and the distinct--yet clear--accent makes me miss Scotland in a bittersweet way. Thank you for your contributions to our understanding of this wonderful universe.
I hope you are rewarded by many new listeners through the podcasts. I don't know how large the podcast crowds are nowadays, but your material is certainly a gift!
I get far more 'listeners' by putting the Podcast episodes on here but it's just another place to put my material. Happy just sharing this stuff on different platforms.
Agreed
14:51 The "neglected by the" Valar part threw me off for a second.
It really didn't seem consistent with Tolkien's other commentary about the angelic powers in his legendarium, so I looked up "letter 131" and found Tolkien had put that part in quotes... ostensibly implying it was Sauron's interpretation of events.
It's amazing how much implicit characterization Tolkien could provide Sauron by virtue of a pair of subtle quotes.
I actually spent more time than I thought I would on how to read that part. If I should mention the quotes in the quote itself or afterwards. I ended up not doing either and hoped no one would mention it :D . WIll make a mental note to point out such things in future quotes as they are important when it comes to the interpretation as you have pointed out!
Tolkien, master of language. Punctuation nuances the writing and creates something as subtle as a meaningful glance or tone of voice-great insight.
This is the best Tolkien channel on YT - I Stan you!!
Thanks! I wish I knew what Stan meant but I assume it's a good thing haha. Cheers :)
the story of the creation of the dwarves always warms my heart. More than anything, Aulë simply wanted companions in Arda with the same passion for craftsmanship as he, to share his unique appreciation for the hidden beauty of the subterranean places in Arda and the use of the raw materials found there to create even more beauty. I can't help but imagine him as the 'weird kid' with no friends and a vivid imagination who creates imaginary friends out of inanimate things to keep themselves company 💔
There, but for the sake of Minecraft, go I.
If you'll forgive me bringing in a completely different book, it seems that Sauron (at least at first) wanted to create a world similar to Camazotz in A Wrinkle in Time. There could be no disorder, no unhappiness, nothing outside of the plan if only everyone would submit to him and give up their own free will. Camazotz illustrates the same type of "perfection", and it is creepy. But Sauron is so set on his own vision of perfect order that he genuinely can't see the problem with taking away people's free will.
It's really interesting to me that Sauron was willing to serve Melkor. Melkor's motivation seems to be destruction for its own sake, which would seem to go against Sauron's desire for order. Sauron seems to have been playing a very long game, serving the one who seemed the most powerful in order to ultimately (or so he thought) achieve his own ends.
For someone who loves Tolkien and the universe he created but has dyslexia ,these podcast are brilliant
I can read ,but I often have to read the same lines over and over again or out loud to process them
But listening to the spoken word makes it much easier to learn ,process and understand
Thank you so much ,this has opened up so much to me
Cheers mate
I never thought about how they could appeal to people who may have certain difficulties with the word on the page. I actually read Tolkien aloud myself as well - though mostly to enjoy it even more! Will be plenty more episodes to come - I'm already figuring out what Episode 3 will be about :)
@@TheRedBook I look forward to it
Cheers mate
You are a beautiful human being, both of you. You have helped others, without knowing, and your humble nature is greatly in need of spread. May “The One” shine grace upon your and yours.
I love this thought of the act of creating and being creative, the love of symmetry and order, how it could lead to a path of misguided intentions. As you say nobody starts out evil. I always had quite a bit of sympathy for Melkor, Aule, Feanor, Celebrimbor and others even the dwarves who also wanted to and had a powerful urge to create. Melkor did terrible things but getting to the ‘why’ of it all is so interesting. Great video!
This is so therapeutic! In fact, I have stopped paying my therapist money. Instead, I just spend some time listening to this channel. It does the trick :)
I always found the story of Aulë and the creation of the dwarves as something so, so good...
I remember something Tolkien said (I think a recording of an after dinner speech?) that he disliked comparisons between LotR and contemporary society & geopolitics. He said that if it truly were a mythologised version of the world we live in then it would have been the wizards that would have won. Hearing your characterisations of Sauron & Saruman really chimes with that, and Tolkien's observation comes more true with every year that goes by.
I'm not sure how one teaches a pupil to be joyful. How does Aule impart his joy of creation and the joy of collaboration that fulfills Eru's design, working together, to make new things and new ideas more wondaful than the intent of their creator? And, then there is the most basic lesson that we all learn around 2 or 3 years of age: Sharing. All of the great creators had such pride in the work of their hands and that pride turned quickly to possessiveness. Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, Feanor, and Eol quickly come to mind. None of these creators was ever content. I'm not sure that,, beyond Sauron's glee at making the Numenoreans destroy themselves, any of them was ever happy for very long if ever.
There is no mention of Saruman ever visiting Khazad-Dum or any of the other Dwarf Halls that I know of in the Legendarium. It seems odd to me that the representative of Aule in Middle Earth would have been a missionary to the people crafted by his master. Truly, most of Saruman's time on Middle Earth was wasted. What was so important in the East that caused him to miss the downfall of Arnor, the Balrog rampage that turned Khazad-Dum into Moria, and the sack and corruption of Minas Ithil/Morgul? The West could have used some leadership and devices at any of those tragedies, but the leader of the Istari was absent. When he does come back he becomes reclusive and treacherous, a dragon miser hoarding treasures that did not belong to him and lusting and looking for the ultimate prize, the One Ring. Jealous of Gandalf from the moment he left the dock in the Grey Havens, Saruman too wasted his spirit until was shriveled becoming a tyrant as petty as Sauron was grand.
I think it is a combination of the teacher and the student together getting to the point where the student begins taking joy in what is being learned and the teacher takes joy in seeing this in the student. But it's not going to happen with all the students, just some of them.
also the nature of Sauron is divine, following the path of spirits, he cannot enter a realm or place if he has been denied passage
The Servants of Aulë: Sauron & Saruman
THIS IS WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT! HELL YEAH! been looking forward to this!
This is the college of knowledge when it comes to Tolkien lore.
Thanks man 👍☘️
Hope you enjoyed episode 2 . Haven't planned what I will do for episode 3 yet but I have some ideas. I think I will manage to get that episode out by the end of July. As I said during this episode, this will be made into a regular video on this channel further down the line.
I am still planning on a response video at the end of this month where I respond directly to the best comments. So, please feel free to ask questions about the content and I will pick out the best to respond to. I'd prefer doing that than writing out a comment response as some comments really deserve more attention than that.
You can find the Podcast on Spotify at (open.spotify.com/show/1ie7z2PKCBJVpk1U8bk2Qo)
Or you can find it on other platforms at (anchor.fm/red-book)
You can get early access to Podcast episodes and videos by joining Patreon (patreon.com/theredbook)
I SURE HAVE! Both episode 1 AND 2, really! ^_^
@@supernautacus Still surprised people can listen to these longer dronings of mine 😅 Glad you are enjoying these episodes!
@@TheRedBook
They are fantastic. I love the pauses. They create a dramatic effect when you start your next point.👍😁
I'd like to hear your take on when Mairon actually joined Melkor. I think he joined him before the Lamps were cast down. Many people think Sauron was in Valinor, meaning he helped create Aman. That doesn't make sense to me. If you have clearer idea of when he made that transition, I'd love to hear it.
@@Enerdhil I know the Annals of Aman in Morgoth's Ring describe Sauron was a spy for Melkor when the Valar lived on the Isle of Almaren and even told Melkor when best to return to Middle-Earth. But while I've seen articles online claiming he remained with the Valar afterwards still acting as Melkor's spy, I've not found anything in the Legendarium supporting this.
I always find Aulë relatable in this story. The feeling of coming so close to doing something you know is immoral with your creativity. While doing my PhD I was really trying to find a way not to be beholden to work afterwards, and a solution I tried going for was to patent my work and see if I could sell it. I'm sure many people think that's totally ok, but I've never liked patents and the whole time I was trying to get it to work I felt like I was doing essentially what is described here, using my creativity to dominate for my own personal power gain instead of being creative to help others. Luckily the research didn't end up quite as marketable as I had hoped and the patent fell through... But I always think of that as my Aulë moment. I really don't want power. Especially power that comes from a place that's against my own morality.
Thanks for sharing this story. Greed and lust for power and control can destroy anyone. I'm glad you were wise enough to see where your life could have gone.
Well, if you have a patent, you can control the use and cost of your invention
If you don’t protect your work, others might take it and use it in ways you don’t like.
Piece of advice. I'd ditch the morals, no one else shares them and they will screw you over at every single solitary opportunity.
I really love this video. I have come back to it many times to make sure I integrate the moral lessons in it.
Happy to hear that :) I am currently writing out Episode 3 which I hope to have out next week!
I really enjoy your podcasts! Such a smooth and consistent narration, and so many ideas worthy of much thought!
I love the way you've put it that Sauron was treating the inhabitants of the Middle-Earth as raw materials - indeed it makes sense that a former Maia of Aule and a master of crafts, sharing his talents yet lacking his feeling of responsibility, would see the whole world as a material to shape according to his design.
And I love Tolkien's quote about reformers from the letter 153 you are referring to in the podcast. Used in this context, it got me thinking how geniously he made a reference to Plato's idea of perfect society in the dialogue between Saruman and Gandalf - that part about the rule of the wisest. Such a noble idea, yet so conveniently twisted according to Saruman's own designs and glory. Yeah, ideas always sound more beautifully than the means...
And lastly, I agree with your conclusion that in Tolkien's world creativity itself is not a bad thing, but it goes along with lots of other traits of character that make life tricky and complicated for a creator, therefore it should be balanced by flexibility, responsibility, empathy and wisdom. So, yes, it does make a person equally predisposed to great deeds and great failures.
I don't know how appropriate my assesment is in this case, but actually I notice the same thing in the character of Eru. Being the most creative person in the story, he shares a lot of common traits with characters like Melkor, Aule, Sauron, Saruman, and Feanor. He is proud, competitive, very determined about his own plan and vision, he doesn't tolerate any doubts about the ultimate wisdom of his decisions, he's a perfectionist, and he definitely enjoys being praised. Which is quite logical, one needs to have all that to bring his ideas to life, otherwise he probably wouldn't even bother to spend his life and energy on all that creative mess. But unlike those who failed, he decided to share his creation with others by giving them free will and the right to participate, and although he always sounds pretty harsh to me, I must admit that he tolerated the unwanted results of his experiment with a certain grace, taking into considerration that he's probably put all of his energy into this creation, and certain figures did their best to crap it up.
I really enjoy your posts. I've been watching lotr lore videos for years now and i've found a lot of good ones but you really add impressive content and perspective to everything, not just retell it.
10/10. Thanks a lot.
Thanks! Plenty of competition on here so I am always happy to hear good things about the content :D
Friedrich Nietzsche - 'You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.'
Chaos seems linked to creativity both inside and outside the craftsman. Evil outcomes being possible is part of the process, perhaps essential to it.
The potential for evils coming from creativity are unavoidable if one crafts, creates or brings into being through skill literally anything of worth.. even if just the jealousy that can come from others who desire it for utility, power or beauty.
How much responsibility of craftsman has for what other ostensibly free individuals do with the work or how they react to it is also a matter of debate even among people who are arguing in good faith.
Only great literature like Tolkien can bring up these kind of philosophical questions in a fantasy context.. So thank you for these excellent podcasts.
i love this barely started but already want ot say how this plays into the dualistic perspective of tolkienistic love. greedy v free love. letting go v control. love this podcast thank you
The main difference between Aule, and the others, is that Aule enjoys and loves the crafts for what they are, the ingenuity, beauty, and creativity of them. He loves to teach for the same reason, to see what others would end up making from his knowledge, and see new things in return. Aule was always willing to teach anything and everything to anyone who asked him, and anything he created he preferred showing others, then keeping to himself.
I think Aule would be the happiest if one of his creation was given and showed around, then his own satisfaction of a job done. Craftman in it's purest form.
The other two loved craft, for what they could give them. How they can be used, either the craft, or knowledge of it, for their own selfish desires, or how to weaponize it.
In a way, just like Faenor fell, making things for himself, greeding over his own creations, refusing to share in the greatest of need.
For Saruman and Sauron, it is how it can be used to rule others for their own sense of Order.
Superb content as always. Would you say that in stories, those who dedicate themselves to accumulate knowledge have a risk or tendency to fall into arrogance and pride because they become so knowledgeable (he who increaseth knowledge, increaseth sorrow)? Very often in modern fantasy stories, figures of great knowledge (mages, wizards, craftsmen) have varying degrees of arrogance and superiority complexes because they consider themselves superior to others due to knowing more. I'm reminded of the description of the Mage birthsign constellation from The Elder Scrolls : 'Those born under the Mage have more magicka and talent for all kinds of spellcasting, but are often arrogant and absent-minded.'
It ties in with the old saying of 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions', I'd say. The knowledgeable may have the purest of intentions, but his arrogance twists him into resorting to questionable and morally dubious methods ('I know what's best... We do it like me, for I know this stuff very well... It's fastest this way... If you're not with me, you're against me..') and thus ends causing harm, rather than good.
Keep up the stellar work, good sir.
Glad to have had your video pop up on my feed. Here’s my sub… looking forward to going through your entire playlist. Thanks for posting and all your hard work.
Fantastic episode, it was really interesting to listen, also wasn't Galadriel a student of Aulë and nearly fall if she took the Ring when Frodo offered it to her?
Thank you :) and yes, she was. Unfinished Tales says "she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor". I've long wanted to make a video about Galadriel's test - I did do a video about her speech to Frodo - but not really an explanation as to why she was tested and why she was in Middle-earth. I'll get round to that at some point. Though, I would say her near-fall possibly had less to do with Aule and more her own eagerness for a blissful realm of her own in Middle-earth. Less about the using others as instruments like his infamous pupils, and more ambition and desire for a realm of her own. Something she could have achieved on a wider scale with the One Ring - which would have inevitably twisted her ambitions into something closer to the realm of Sauron. So, I suppose the link is there :)
good episode, i often thought about the connection between creation, desire and falling into evil in Tolkiens works, this summed it up very well.
I'm enjoying this podcast format for sure 👍
You’ve done some excellent work on your channel. Long-time Tolkien reader here, and now also a subscriber of yours. Thanks and cheers!
Thanks for the support Steve :D
I love these. So very informative and your narration and voice are a pleasure to listen to. I found your podcast through iOS podcasts will there be more? Excellent work. Very appreciated.
Thanks, John. Yes, there will certainly be more episodes - after my next video on the channel, I will be recording another Podcast episode!
This one is SO deep and in a way if I opened my life to explain I think the reaction might be….: 🧐🤨🙃🤔
This world is fun.
Thank you so much your time and effort put into all your content is amazing
Thank you very much :) always happy to hear people enjoy the content!
This was a wonderful episode as usual, but if I might offer a point of constructive concern: the audio for tree beard's quote is much, much quieter than usual, to the point of being difficult to hear.
I noticed that too when listening to it on CZcams. It sounded much clearer on my PC beforehand. Though, I did lower the volume on that piece of audio as Treebeard's voice was booming and sounded much louder than the rest of my audio. Will be more careful in future to try and match these levels from different sources.
Watched on spotify too, thanks for covering this topic
Engagement comment for the algorithm. Great video.
Excellent work 👍
This was really interesting, thanks for posting
Thanks for watching :)
Wonderful as always Steven. You know my thoughts on this already but expanding on Aule, do you think his marriage to Yavanna - Vala of Flora, Fauna and nature - was key to tempering his ways and preventing him from falling as Mairon and Curumo did? And do you see wider themes of Tolkien's in his deliberate marriage of Aule (the Smith, Vala of 'industry') with Yavanna?
Thank you :) and yes, we very briefly talked about this on Discord. I am going to respond to it directly when I make my response video but I also think it has great potential to be its own video. Either a focus on the dynamic between Yavanna and Aule (as you point out) or the purpose of the Valar marrying and the differences between the figures that ended up becoming bonded that way. It's interesting to me. So, probably a response directly and then a more detailed video on this down the line.
Perhaps I should focus entirely on Aule and Yavanna for that particular discussion then expand on it later with other spouses? I think their relationship seems so strange but (I believe) misunderstood. I'd have a bit to say on that.
@@TheRedBook I think the structure that you describe in the second paragraph is the perfect way to tackle this topic. Aulë and Yavanna are the married Valar we know most about and as you say, have the story that can be best explored. Certainly more than Tulkas and Nessa, for example. And from there, you can explore the nature of marriage in Valar terms, how it would have affected Aulë and Yavanna, their influence on the world, and the wider interpretation that we can take of what Tolkien is saying through this.
Agreed, I think that would be best - and there'd be no harm in quickly mentioning the type of relationship shared by Nessa/Tulkas, Manwe/Varda when talking about Aule and Yavanna. Definitely added to the infamous list of doom that grows by the day...
Great question!
Definitely fruit for it's own topic. It seems there is some power inherent in the marriage of Valar, since we told that Manwe's power grows when he is near Varda, as her's does near him. Aüle and Yavanna's marriage seems an intentional message on Tolkien's part.
@@TheRedBook we need to work on organising that and working out what comes when 😀
If I ever come to any wealth, I will pay you a ransom of gold. You are a skilled man and I deeply appreciate your efforts. Thank you
This was wonderful, thank you!
Interesting Take on the topic. I appreciate it. 👍🏻
Thanks man I appreciate your work
This is amazing!
Thank you! :)
Thank you for another smashing video 😉 must admit I do miss the artists illustrations throughout the video
Thanks! And don't worry, it will get that type of video in the future at some point. I'll basically take out some of the parts I don't need to talk about and then put it to music and the artist illustrations as always. So, people will be able to rewatch it as a traditional video later.
Wonderful video! On the topic of Aule, does Tolkien ever address why Aule could never replicate the Silmarils (while the Trees were still alive)? It makes me so sad to think what amazing things Feanor, Sauron and Saruman could have made, with or without Aule's guidance, had they not fallen to pride.
Thank you! And to respond to your interesting question - Aule (despite being what we would call a god in his respective field) is his own person with his own creativity and imagination. Fëanor is another. The Silmarillion tells us that "The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive". Basically telling us that even though he is an Elf, a child of Illuvatar, he had some creative genius in many ways that even Aule would and could not match. It was Fëanor who conceived of the Silmarils, not Aule. Even the substance of the Silmarils was a secret known only to Feanor, as the Silmarillion also says that "not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made".
It might be hard to believe but even Aule could not make the Silmarils, or replicate them. They were a unique work of Feanor's genius and creativity.
it was stated many times and the quote is easy to find relating to how all the great works of any craft or creation of wonderment can only be made once and it takes a part of your soul inside of them.
Hi Steven, I've got an itching question about Sauron's whereabouts... do you think he returned to Morgoth after being defeated by Huan and Luthien or did he remain in hiding for the rest of the First Age?
I was wondering the same thing.... He surrendered to Luthien so he wouldn't have to suffer the embarrassment of being laughed at by Morgoth. Even in his physical form, it doesn't seem likely he would have gone to to his master after his failure to report had resulted in the loss of a silmaril. Morgoth was probably furious with him.
The music at the end until about 38:23 or so reminds me of Miami Vice. I kept expecting Sonny Crockett to tell Gandalf he needed him to keep an eye on his pet gator while he goes undercover.
I like my cheesy synth. I'd use Jan Hammer if he'd let me ;)
@@TheRedBook - I always liked "Evan". And I'm sure he'd let you use it...but it might cost more than you would want to pay. XD
Wow! I don't know how I missed this video when it first came out but I am delighted to have discovered it finally!
A few questions.
Do we know when Sauron gave his allegiance to Melkor? I have been under the impression this happened before the Valar established Valinor but your video hints that may not the case?
Besides Sauron and the balrogs what do we know about the other Maiar that sided with Melkor?
I think your analysis of the attributes of these 3 characters and others similar to them was quite insightful as to how it made them more vulnerable to being corrupted but at the same time being capable of doing great things so long as they understand their skills are not just for their own self-aggrandizement. I can see how not only the horrors of WWI influenced his writings but also the changes taking place where he grew up and lived in England.
Again, well done!
I find an interesting parallel between your analysis of Tolkien's Sauron (& perhaps Saruman) & Nabokov's Humbert Humbert from the novel Lolita, both of which were published around the same time.
You seem to indicate that Sauron & Saruman fell to evil as a result of their desire to "impose order." My preferred analysis of Lolita, is drawn from Azar Nafisi's book; "Reading Lolita in Tehran." She suggests that Humbert represents an "ideal" man after a fashion & Humbert becomes evil through his actions to impose his desire (his will) upon an innocent child. This echoes your discussion of the desire of Sauron & then Saruman to impose one's will on others. According to Nafisi, the novel Lolita is an allegory for the USSR which purportedly was founded on noble ideals but, as we know, became an evil empire because of the tyranny imposed upon its citizens. Nafisi echoes the theme in a discussion of the Iranian theocratic regime. The theme being that noble ideals do not justify the imposition of tyranny because it is important that everyone should find their own path, not have a path imposed upon them, no matter how well intended.
I believe that it is well understood that Tolkien used his writing as a vehicle to share his Christian values but he chose, unlike his good friend C.S. Lewis, to do so with a very light hand, focusing more on his concepts of those values rather than the more hamfisted allegories of Lewis. Don't mistake me, I love C.S. Lewis' work but Tolkien was much more subtle.
Agree with what you have highlighted, the fault of Sauron and Saruman is down to their character not Aule. Sauron is mighty and wise and because of this he feels that he is best suited to rule. Like the best player on the team that won’t pass, he feels only he can achieve the victory. Saruman’s character never should have been allowed to go to middle-earth by the Valar. We learn that he alone was eager to test himself against Sauron, which was not their purpose. It also signals a degree of respect or reverence towards Sauron. Despite being the 2nd most powerful being on middle earth, Saruman was never going to be Sauron’s equal, but realises it is only with the ring he could. Where as Gandalf placed his faith in others to accomplish the task of the Istari, Saruman couldn’t and didn’t want to contemplate this.
Aulë messed up with making the Dwarves, BUT< Eru knew he would, and had, at LEAST from The Music of the Ainur. And had already chose to make them real and adopt them. UNLIKE Melkor's corrupt efforts! What is the difference with Aule, Melkor, Sauron, and Saruman? Why has the Secret Fire been given to The Children of Aule and not Melkor (for Sauron and Saruman just followed in his lead, in his power, by his authority) ? Aulë's Humility and Selflessness. He really was going to destroy his BEST WORK, as an offering for his intentional error. But Eru WANTED the Khazad made, to show "He" is very willing to do the same, IF, the intention is right, for the FAR FUTURE (even to The Valar's standards). Remember, Eru does NOT plant without purpose! Look how important to men the Khazad (Durin's line, most of all) have been.
Aule's words to Varda, about the Jewels of Fëanor, that she did NOT understand what she was asking of Feanor. To undo his BEST work, that he can NEVER make again. The work he put the most love into. Aule had faced the same test. And fully understood that Eru was there, listening. And Feanor could not be directed into the right choice. That the only proper reply to such wrong, was Humility and Selflessness! Aule knew that, as his own example, IF Feanor had gone to release the light of The two Trees, Eru would have done it. What is too hard for Eru??? But, Feanor failed the test. and his choice limited Eru's ability to act. If Feanor and The Valar would have called upon Eru, Morgoth would have been over! But, Eru's designs go FAR deeper than even the Valar (Melkor included) can understand. They might as well be human, in that matter. ^_^
The story of Aule and the dwarves is a reference to the binding of Isaac. Eru (God) rewards Aule (Abraham) for being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.
@@theeffete3396 ...Indeed! ^_^
@@theeffete3396 I was going to say this as well. And as a result of the "father's" willingness to sacrifice, the descendants are blessed.
Thanks!
Thanks once again Connor Macleod! Always appreciate your support :D
Excellent topic!
There is always this interesting dynamic of power hierarchy, who is the greatest of the great. Is it our human nature to continually thirst for this, why do we do it? Something that seems to be glossed over is Ungoliant nearly ending Melkor...What!? I think this deserves its own video/discussion, and I'm curious what everyone thinks about it? Did Tolkien discuss this? How can something be so powerful and mysterious. It's interesting to me that Ungoliant ate/devoured light...like a black hole consuming everything. Also, Melkor after his genius escape... would it drive him mad thinking about how powerful Ungoliant was, how did she achieve this? Can one have powers as great as her? If i was Sauron(or any character) I would seek this, some kind of untapped, unknown power beyond power.
My view is that Ungoliant is that by consuming the light of the Two Trees she temporarily gained a far greater level of power than she normally had but that power didn't last.
Fantastic
Really enjoyed this balanced examination of Sauron, Saruman and also Aule. Too often Aule has aspersions cast upon him for the actions of his pupils. Yes he chose his students poorly, but he should not be held accountable for all the actions of his pupils. One should bear in mind that he throughout the story of the Legendarium, seeks to show some compassion along with a great deal of patience (as in the case of Feanor when the latter was pressed to sacrifice the Silmarils).
I don't even know if Aule would have some choice in the matter. He was naturally inclined to share in his gifts and I'm sure all the Maiar and the Elves drawn to him to learn from him would be something he'd welcome. Their mistakes are then theres - abuses of what he taught them, or ignoring what he taught them - maybe only taking away the technical aspects of his teachings and not the importance of how to use these gifts.
Aulë's HR Department needs to get its hiring criteria sorted out.
You sound just like Christopher Lee. I salute you
I like to imagine that Sauron was helping Aule build the world and whatnot and would continue to get frustrated with other Maiar for being too stupid and resistant to go along with his designs (which must have been superior). Eventually he got so fed up with feeling like he couldn't complete his projects at all that he just was like fuck this I am joining Melkor who actually gives a fuck about my skills lol.
Will they one day be available on an Audible podcast?
It is up there just now. It's added to Amazon Music which also adds it to Audible. Just search for the channel name and it's one of the first results :)
As a Christian Tolkien was steeped in the concept that only God is allowed to create and any attempt to emulate him result in hubris and disaster usually ensues, be it Frankenstein, Metropolis or Rossum's Universal Robots. Other religious traditions don't necessarily have this taboo and imbue artificial beings with soul that is not necessarily evil (Japan and Shinto). For example Isaac Asimov said that there was not really such a taboo in Jewish traditions and creation raises one closer to god a concept borrowed from Zoroastrianism.
I wonder if Tolkien had ever looked at these concepts or was aware of them or simply followed his own beliefs.
There's the idea of the Demiurge and the Archons as well - the supreme being of the Universe and those who build the physical world. Though, I am not a religious scholar of Tolkien's works and I am unaware of how much of an influence Gnosticism had on his writings. For the likes of Zoroastrianism and other concepts, Tolkien clearly "knew his stuff" and early versions of his text were quite different from what we ended up getting - though I'd lean more towards the well known Pagan influences that started to get replaced by his own Catholicism in his revision of the Legendarium. I would enjoy learning more about such influences from someone who is an expert when it comes to Tolkien's religious influences.
As I understand it, Catholic tradition doesn’t have a problem with creativity per se, there are even those who postulate humans participating in the ongoing creation of the world.
The problem is not being creative but thinking that you’re something special because you are.
To paraphrase Tolkien’s friend CS Lewis, humility isn’t a smart man saying he’s dumb or a pretty woman saying that she is plain
Thus The creation of the Dwarves by Aule is in complete agreement with Tolkien’s Christian beliefs
@@stephenandersen4625 Aule is still a divine creator of sorts and he gets the blessing of Eru Iluvatar who finishes the process, as without him they would be automatons.
The problem is not creativity as it can be used to praise god, which is always a way to generate the brownie points. The issue is trying to imitate god or even become god, that's a big no-no. As I said some Judaic traditions do see rising up closer to God as a positive thing, even Mormonism has some similar ideas.
Morgoth's main sin is trying to control creation and master it rather than let it grow on its own. Tolkien's faith is fairly optimistic in that regard, he believes in doing good, and puts emphasis on forgiveness and redemption, he is solidly conservative, but it's reasonably wholesome, he dislikes and regrets the downsides of modernity, rather than despise it altogether.
Do you look forward to any more books coming out that compile and release more of Tolkien's unpublished letters (a la, History of Middle Earth/Latter Silmarillion) or do you think all of the good content has been mined (Or do you think Christopher was the last person fit for that task)?
I'd love any and new content but I think The Nature of Middle-earth was it - according to the author. He pretty much got what was remaining from Christopher Tolkien and asked to compile and edit it. I'd be very surprised if we got more but you never know.. I'd always welcome it, as long as it wasn't just someone else creating new material and the Estate passing it off as Tolkien's or something.
It's odd that as far as I recall, we know the names of exactly three fallen Maiar: Sauron, Saruman, and Gothmog. Two of these had served Aule. Was Gothmog a servant of Aule as well?
Do you think Sauron would have wanted or welcomed Morgoths return? Also of somehow morgoth returned, would the ring of power make much differance for him if he wore it?
I may answer this in its own video Zach, I have some thoughts on this.
I tried seeing if anyone else has made a video about it, but if they have its not showing up for me.
@@BeregondFirstCaptain If I don't respond to it in my response video that should be out next week - then I will make sure to make a video of this later :)
So ... Sauron is the embodiment of every episode of "It's Always Sunny" because they almost always start out with a positive-ish goal, but is corrupted in their methods and willingness to do evil believing the ends justify.
yeah, I'd buy that
You can clearly see the impact of the wars of the early 20th century on Tolkien's thinking. In many of Hitler's speeches he espouses the concepts of "Knowledge, Power, and Order" - much like Sauron and Saruman. Hitler, and other leaders for that matter, didn't always speak using those words. However, those concepts were behind what they did in order to drive the people of their countries forward to victory or defeat.
After a lot of thought, I find myself believing that Sauron must have changed sides during the Time of the Lamps, & it seems unlikely that Sauron went to Valinor when the Lamps were cast down. Indeed, I'd not be surprised if he was the chief spy who informed Melkor of the best time to strike the Lamps.
Aule is not to blame, ultimately he is also a creation. The ultimate responsibility for the evil in the world lies with Eru- the creator of all. He not only created it in a way that made evil possible, but did not interfere to correct it when it happened.
Evil is only possible due to free will. I'm sure many would say it would be evil if all these creatures existed without free will. Individuals choose their path and turning from a certain path leads to evil.
Did the wind-up toy dwarves, before being given the GHSOE (Good House Keeping Seal of Eru) shrink from the harm (hammer of Aule) intended by him out of free will, instinct, or programmed avoidance?
Like all things, definitions reside at the heart of all disputes of this kind. Is evil harm of any kind, or the intentional inflicting of harm not authorized by the Authorities? A cat killing and eating a mouse is NOT evil? (No free will). A farmer killing and eating a chicken? (The chicken's will was not consulted, and perhaps the farmer likes killing things, so this one is a toss up, since the Bible says it's okay to eat the good things of Creation). Jehovah turning all Sodom and Gomorrah (including babes at breast) into an inferno (WAY over my pay grade to even comment)?
Sin, as defined by all moral teachers, is something that can be worked at and minimized, but harm, either by commission or NOT acting, is something that NO living creature can avoid. Even suicide is an insult to the God that made you.@@TheRedBook
I think there is a tendency to question Aule's people because we are really only given these two major examples, plus Feanor. But we don't know how many other Maiar were Aule's people and didn't get corrupted; and of the Maiar who joined Melkor, we don't know which other Valar most of them originally served. Humans like to generalize based on the information we have, but the reality is we actually have very little to go on when it comes to the people of Aule or any other Vala.
It's something I have brought up before when people blame Aule for it. He could have had countless servants, countless Elves as well who studied under him. The most infamous and infamous for a reason and stand out. They are the exception, not the standard.
We do know about the balrogs, who don't seem very likely to have been among Aule's people.
It's pretty clear that Sauron never truly repented I'd say. He fear accountability, and decided instead to become the god of ME
Music is so good. What song is that?
I really admire your voicework. Holy shit. I think I need you to record the whole book to replace the Rob Inglis version.
Nice of you to say haha but when I listen to the work of Phil that I have commissioned, I realise just how far I am from being able to engage people through reading long passages. I'm afraid my version of The SIlmarillion would put people to sleep !
@@TheRedBook Ok well then Phil needs to do it. His voices are so on point. I think the LOTR needs a new audiobook anyway. The current version thats available on audible could be vastly improved, especially the songs, which the narrator sings in a way I find underwhelming. I think the Lord of the Rings deserves a more elaborate production for its audiobook than just a single guy reading but thats just me.
Phil's Lord of the Rings production is great. I'd love him to do The SIlmarillion but the problem would certainly be copyright. It would be hard for him to share it publically without being challenged. Otherwise, I'd have started a Kickstarter for it already to work on it with him :D
@@waltonsmith7210 The songs should be sung in a manner that would have been familiar to John Dowland - 20th Century Broadway musical style is jarring and out of place.
I think this is the red book video that I basically knew most of the stuff already.
it would be logical to assume that Sauron and Saruman personally knew each other before they left Valinor. I suspect Saruman had a face to face with Sauron after Saruman either killed or abandoned the Blue Wizards and made a pact to help Sauron to find the ring. Probably had a competitive apprenticeship under Aulie.
There's no evidence that Sauron was ever in Valinor. He may have already joined Melkor before the Valar fled to what would become Aman.
@TheRedBook Aule and his servants show us the dangers of creativity to the creators, their susceptibility to pride and evil. This suggests a self-reflective meta context. In what ways do you believe this dynamic was at play in the life of the creator of these tales, Tolkien himself? To what extent was it a real-life consideration for Tolkien, vis a vis his creative endeavors?
The phenomenon of decline in Tolkien mythology is related to the concept of entropy in physics and this phenomenon is one of the fundamental natural laws of the universe. Entropy in short is the state of the universe tending to reach its maximum disorder and minimum energy level. On the other hand Sauron and Saruman on the other hand as divine beings trying to maintain order and control as they were against the nature of the universe in this way their power decreased over time that is they suffered a decline which is expressed as literary.
Cheers
Next 😊
Aule's servants must have gone crazy from being overworked. Maybe Aule also used Balrogs as fire for his smith
that's why all of them rebelled. they were tired of being treated as slaves
Are there any maiar who abandoned Morgoth? Is falling for evil one-way street?
Osse briefly served him when he was swayed from the service of Ulmo but he was brought back to the fold - leaving Melkor with next to no influence over the sea. Once reason he hated it so much!
Well, depending on your views towards her, Ungoliant might qualify. She fell out with Morgoth twice. She also never redeemed herself.
there is talk in the books of Arien being a pure spirit of fire Melkor failed to corrupt
It might seem that the Maiar of Aulë were particularly at risk of falling but I don't think the legendarium necessarily bears that out. Many Ainur Joined Melkor before they entered into Eä and since ,unless I'm mistaken only those of the mightiest Ainur who entered into Eä were designated as Valar, some untold number of Maiar must have fallen before being assigned to a Vala. And Tolkien also didn't define how many Maiar went to serve Melkor after that so we don't know how many Maiar, if any, other Valar lost to Melkor after.
Tolkien specifically states that those associated with the "making of things" and crafting were at greater risk of a fall. Makes sense that those drawn to a Vala of crafting would then be those exact beings he's talking about. Though greater risk does not mean the only ones at risk.
Aule: Yavanna... the next time Manwe asks me to mentor a Maia. Just stove my head in with my hammer.
I wonder who or what Tolkien was thinking of with Sauron and Saruman. They are clearly very similar - not evil at first, but wanting order and progress. I used to think Tolkien was thinking of Oppenheimer and similar scientists, but listening to this he might have been thinking of Lenin/Stalin or perhaps even Cromwell. Anyone who makes lots of changes thinking they know best, but the result is worse. Obviously he is probably thinking of the concept rather than a specific individual, I just wonder if there was one particular event that irked him more that others, like the situation in post WW1 Europe.
Poor Aule, he just loves to create, which is his downfall. Creative spirits push the threshold of what is known. It seems all od his students or at least the greatest of his students all turned against Eru.
Steven, I thought you might cover Sauron's Mairon phase. He was a good guy for a while. The Same is true for Sauron. Both were faithful good servants of the Valar at one time. It is terrible to see good guys turn to evil. It should be a warning for all of us.
I kind of just assumed people would know that if there was a fall then they fell from good. We don't know much about what Sauron achieved when he was good, we know more about Saruman. Though, I do give Sauron his due in this episode by saying a few times that his intentions were at one time good, why he fell, why he relapsed. I'm sure a topic will come up when I can maybe explore Sauron's earliest of years before Melkor - the little that we know of it.
@@TheRedBook
The truth is that when Amazon released that snapshot of Finrod looking at the Two Trees in the distance, many posters wrote that they thought it was Sauron. I never thought Sauron helped make Aman and lived there at anytime. I thought he must have defected to Melkor just before the Lamps were destroyed. I even thought that Mairon gave Melkor information on how to quicker destroy the Lamps because I think he helped Aulë creat them.
Any evidence that sarumon and sauron started as the same figure? It seems like sarumon is a way to continue the old storyline where Gandalf was just a wizard running from a rogue member of his order.
No evidence for that but in early versions of the text, when Saruman had names like Sarumand, he was actually a servant of Sauron - not a treacherous pretender or anything like that. He was brought in to replace Treebeard (who was a very different figure) when Tolkien needed someone to delay Gandalf. By that time, Sauron was well established as a figure in the story.
It's probably been thought of, but your description of the construction of the dwarves makes me suspicious that Yavanna made the Hobbits. I know she made the ents in response to Aules dwarves. But the Hobbits love growing things and respect nature in a way that scream Yavanna.
It's my observation that Aule and the origin of the Dwarves is Tolkien's jab at Jacob and Isaac, like a much better version of that kind of story.
Aulë forgot the ethics part of the lessons every time
Has anyone ever noticed that Time Bandits is almost a parody of Tolkien's creation myth, right down to having lesser being creating part of the world and one of them being the most powerful being evil.
the very act of picking up a ball or stacking a building block is called manipulation
but the word manipulations has nearly entirely negative connotations in common speech
Title is confusing. This is "podcast part 2", not "servants of Aule part 2" (yes, I'm American, we use double quotes instead of singles)
I spent quite a few frustrating minutes searching for "Servants of Aule: _ & _, Part 1"
Well, I called it Episode 2 not Part 2... which I think would have been more confusing. But no harm in swapping it round. Titles have been changed.
@@TheRedBook thanks. Gets a thumbs-up, regardless.
for the algorithm
If any valar should be depicted in visual form like film I think aule should be it.
I listen just for your accent. Scottish?
The content isn't good? 😅 Yes, I am from Scotland.
@@TheRedBook of course I love the content! I’m a huge Tolkien legendarium fan, but your voice is simply so relaxing, it has a “Saruman’s Voice” effect on me! Lol I like to listen before bed… or whenever I want to wind down…. Where did you get the audio clips from? Were they all in the extended edition of LOTR?
The audiobook parts are from the Phil Dragash The Lord of the Rings soundscape project - I have a link to his sites in the description of each video.
“Knowledge, Rule, Order.” Spoken like a true elitist wannabe tyrant. None of those things are good in and of themselves but they are Saruman’s “ultimate purpose.” And seemingly Sauron’s as well.
I think "enforcement" is missing from that list.
Knowledge is good in itself.
Isn’t it?
@@stephenandersen4625 haven’t you ever heard a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?
Seems like I've had this same discord with others, but WTH. Morgoth didn't create Sauron, and Aule didn't create Saruman; both (as were Aule and Melkor) were made by ERU. Why blame Aule for a creature he didn't create? I know this is NOT the opinion we're supposed to have, but there it is.
I look at the Fall of Lucifer/Satan, and the way JRRT described the opening coda before Arda's creation and I see a similar sequence. Lucifer went bad because he was DESIGNED to, and Melkor and Sauron were NOT good in the beginning but always evil in thought or deed, from the BEGINNING, unless you want to believe in a random, uncaring, cold universe where everything happens by chance and previous activity, and not by intent.
Loving order and efficiency sounds (to my suspicious ears) not as a virtue but toxic fussiness, much like Concentration Camp staff loving routine, good book-keeping, and the struggle against "dirt" and "germs" while ignoring the bigger picture.
Besides loving order and being good at fabricating things, what "show of goodness" or consideration for others from anytime in Sauron's story arc can you point to?
Note that some one else even mentioned that Treebeard could NEVER think of a time where Saruman returned the favor of insight or consideration, or even general knowledge. The Silver Tongue made sure that all useful knowledge stayed within "Whitey's" kaleidoscope robes.
The discord you have is with Tolkien then because he disagrees with most of your points based on his writings. Though, there are some claims you make here that I never claimed.
@@TheRedBook Thanks for the reply. Since it is JRRT's world, he can make it any way he wants, and change if it if he cares to. He can change his mind, for example, from a flat disk world lit by lamps and trees to a round world lit by giant lanterns and trees, and then by satellites cobbled from jewels and earlier tree light. We can accept it or not, but it IS canon.
He can state that all races and species are created, or "changed" by evil intent, and never mention organic evolution (as we understand it), and for the sake of the story, we accept as much as we care to.
But I'm curious. I've read the discussion in "Nature of ME". Evil is said to have no independent existence (JRRT quoting TA), but is said to be a lack of good. IF evil is marring, as in the Marring of Arda, and it can all be traced back to Melkor, where, one might ask, is the “good” Melkor?
What else did I task you with that you don’t claim? I never implied that YOU blamed Aule or claimed Melkor CREATED anything, but rather I was specifically asking about your views on the origin and beginnings of evil in Melkor and associates.
Feanor, arguably the most "evil", or if you prefer, most proud murderous and tyrranical of the High Elves, was also a pupil of Aulë, and Celebrimbor, who forged 19 of the rings of power with Sauron's help, was the last of the line of Feanor.
Thanks !
Thanks!
Thank you very much for the generosity :) hope you enjoyed the video!