The Aratar | The High Ones of Arda
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- With the Ainur who descended into Arda being divided into the Valar and the Maiar, why did Tolkien place many of the Valar into another group called the Aratar? I explain the distinction, sharing my thoughts on each figure and the role of the Aratar in the world.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
0:55 - The Ainur
1:44 - The Valar
2:43 - The Maiar
3:52 - Power in the Legendarium
5:25 - Tolkien's Development of the Aratar
7:37 - The Aratar and Greek Mythology
10:03 - The Aratar - Manwë: The Elder King
10:37 - The Aratar - Ulmo: The Lord of Waters
11:16 - The Aratar - Mandos: The Doomsman of the Valar
12:05 - The Aratar - Aulë: The Maker
12:49 - The Aratar - Varda: The Queen of the Stars
13:40 - The Aratar - Yavanna: The Giver of Fruits
14:18 - The Aratar - Nienna: The Lady of Tears
15:24 - The Aratar - Oromë: The Huntsman of the Valar
16:28 - The Importance of the Aratar
17:18 - Outro/Artist Credits
17:37 - Patreon Update/Members-only Video
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► On-Screen Notes:
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► Thumbnail art :
Manwë - Ralph Damiani ( / art_ralphdamiani )
► Audio:
The following music was used for this media project:
Music: Tempting Secrets by Kevin MacLeod
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Music: The Sands Of Time by Euan Ford
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Music: Virtutes Vocis by Kevin MacLeod
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Music: Voice Of An Angel One by Alexander Nakarada
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Music: The Death Of A Dark Star by MusicLFiles
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#tolkien #valar #aratar #manwe #legendarium - Zábava
Concerning Nienna, I've always thought that it speaks so highly of Tolkien that when he was figuring out what kind of "gods" there should be, he decided that of course there should be a goddess of pity (and made her 1 of the 8 most powerful Valar).
I do think lots of people struggle with the idea that Nienna is 1 of the 8 most important Valar. Here's a couple of things I've mentioned to people:
1. I've always liked that Peter Jackson put a version of Gandalf's discussion with Frodo about Bilbo's pity for Gollum into his film. It's very touching and wise, and I think almost any audience can realize it's a place where Tolkien is trying to convey something profound. And where did Gandalf learn such lessons? The Valaquenta tells us:
"Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin [Gandalf] . . . [H]is ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience."
2. In addition to the education, I point out a concrete fact: what color did Gandalf wear? Grey, Nienna's color.
To paraphrase Gandalf, It may be pity that determines who will win the war.
I totally agree. I really think that Nienna is crucial to the legendarium. Fingolfin's line succeeded his older have brother Feanor's family line to the throne due to Feanor's kin slaying and attacking Morgoth without friendship and council . Fingolfin's sons made peace with the Sindar and Edain and Dwarves. The friendship between Legolas and Gimli helped saved middle earth and retain Khazadum after the fall of Sauron. The friendship of the hobbits along with Bilbo and Frodo sparing Smeagol, saved middle earth.
Ulmo still helping Tuor and the rest of the middle earth while most of the Valar left middle earth to deal with Morgoth truly says a lot about Nienna.
I am a poor man but I really appreciate your work thanks 😊
for the algorithm.
If it matters... I'm starting to try and substitute "Hammer and Tongs!!!" with as much Joy, or rage, as I instinctively possess when I scream "Mother...F*cker!!!"
Hammer and Tongs was the calling card of Notre Dame de La Sallette. Fun history.
Which seems fair to liken to Notre Dame Nienna. Tears like a river.
Which makes total sense, to me.
For Rohan
FOR THE HORDE
Excellent 👌
For Scotland
Omg, why haven't you gotten to my feed before this? I could listen to your voice for hours describing Tolkien's universe. Idk, yours just makes the narrative that more magical.
You're in luck, I have hours of content :D
As for why I haven't been in the feed, I get buried under many larger channels, unfortunately.
I agree. Steven has the best voice among all those who do Tolkien content. I think Karl of GeekZone is a close second.
Hi Steve, I've just had an idea. Would you please consider doing an analysis of one of my favourite poems, Durin's song. With all its references to the Elder Days and the visceral sorrow and fond memory... I think it deserves more appreciation 💎
Good to see you back! And for those who still curious about Nienna it was Gandalf who served under her. Now, during all those parts in the books where Gandalf speaks of pity, mercy and being restrained in judgement, he is literally preaching the teachings of Nienna.
There also some parallels to the prophets of old and to Nienna concerning suffering- the idea being the prophets suffered to both prove the truth of God's teachings and spread them. Nienna here suffers from the evil of the world but always remembers it in the hopes of healing a marred Arda.
At a certain point, likely in Vol.II, Gandalf himself becomes a representative of almost all of the Valar. He rides Shadowfax like Oromë, he's quick to anger but quick to laughter like Tulkas. At the Black Gate, he acts and speaks like Námo. The list goes on and on.
I’ve always seen a closer connection to the Norse pantheon than the Greek, but I really enjoyed this video and your take on this subject. Keep up the good work
i think manwe and ulmo have a close similarity to zeus and poseidon, being the lords of sky and sea, and manwe being heavily associated with eagles. but the other valar definitely have a more norse quality to their roles and titles.
I was always confused why Mandos and Lorien didn't make the list, considering they know all events that have and will happen, and will eventually meet and know every child of Illuvatar.
No Vala knows everything that has happened or will happen. I talk about that in my last podcast episode, with Tolkien saying that a full knowledge of the past would be needed to allow knowledge of the future and that Eru when showing the vision of the world left it incomplete with a purpose. Only Eru knows, even with free will, because he can see the outcome of all choices. The likes of Manwe and Namo have "fairly complete" but not complete knowledge. You''ve given me another video idea about this :D
Thanks for this! Always love a Tolkien deep dive! Even in topics I’d never think to look into!
Everyone talks about the Valar but why did Tolkien further divide this group? This video was almost an excuse to talk about some Greek Mythology on my Tolkien channel.
Support The Red Book: www.patreon.com/theredbook - Access Members-only videos :)
Everyone asks "who are the valar"
But nobody asks "how are the valar?"
Well now I want to see a review of Circe.
I caught a premier!!! I am so Happy! This was very cool. Also 9 is also a segnificant number in other Myths, so it was nice, to me, that Tolkin added that.
Yes, I did (very briefly) mention the symbolic nature of 7 in the video...but it's the same with 3 and 9 too. I'll see if I can think up a good video about that. Nine is very prominent in Norse Mythology, 3 and 7 in Christianity (understatement!)
Thanks for the content made my day 🙃
I need to show appreciation for properly understanding and equating Hades to Namo. THANK YOU!
This makes sens to me Steven, although he was not a professional scholar of Greek mythology,he had read absorbed and understood it well evne from a fairly young age. Good that you have spotted some of his inspiraton. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I had imagined that Oromë represented the predator spirit/instinct. This then made it make sense for me that his sister should be Nessa, the spirit for prey (“the dancer” title comparing her to the frolicking of woodland prey animal), and that Vána should be his wife to balance his hunting with her rebirth.
And in addition to that Tulkas (as violence) is married to Nessa, symbolising to me that violence only exists in the world to protect the helpless.
I first read The Hobbit in 3rd grade. Since then I have read every work released multiple times and listened to thousands of hours of Tolkien audiobooks. This is the first thing from the legendarium I don't recall in a long time. I must have totally overlooked these beings. Good work 😘
I say in the video that there is no mention of them in The Hobbit but it is possible that "The Authorties" mentioned in the riddle-game could be a sly reference :D
I'm a simple man. I see The Red Book has a new video, I hit the like button.
Thank you :)
Wow, that is a great video... I really loved how this video is even more rewarding because it syncs really well with your other videos on the Valar, gentle references as if adding another image to a somewhat encylopedian, somewhat mythological tapestry. Fantastic how you barely repeat yourself through your tapestry!
And it was really interesting to learn that the Aratar are not merely defined by superior power but rather how much historical influence/agency they realised and how near and dear the concepts they stood for and the realms they created were to the Children of Ilúvatar. Nienna has to be praised, as surely we can hear her teachings in Gandalf$s famous words to Frodo regarding Bilbo sparring Gollum...
I think you are spot on with it not really being about POWER. I made an appendices video for this one and I talk a lot about that actually and wish that I had talked about it more in this video. Influence and authority over some inherent power. People don't tend to care so much about that and just obsess about power all the time.
I like talking about the Valar and have some ideas for future videos about them too. I'm tempted to remake my first Valar video at some point too since my videos are a lot better now and I'd have more to add and say when it comes to their role in Middle-earth.
@@TheRedBook I think power is easier to understand for a lot of people. Things like authority and its significance in Tolkien are not as easily grasped unless the reader makes the effort to achieve a deeper understanding of what Tolkien is writing about and Tolkien wrote on multiple levels.
I think it's also a consequence of popular media. Where power really does end up boiling down to beings punching each other the hardest...
From Nienna through Gandalf to Bilbo and Frodo, leading to the liberation from Sauron. I love that arc!!
@@TheRedBook
Nowadays power is about having total control over everyone's life and squashing any opposition.
When The Red Book comes out with new material I click.
Same.
Nice analysis, particularly as it relates to Oromë vs Tulkas. Nienna is one of those whose importance I recognize but am not sure I’ll ever fully understand though 😂
It may be because often God changes sorrow and mourning to joy and gladness. Arda has these cycles of both. It is the way of a broken world, me thinks.
Very entertaining video. The timing was perfect, I just re-read the Hobbit and the Trilogy over Christmas and I'm now on the Silmarillion.
Great work! Please more about tolkien teogony and cosmogony. Thank You so much for this!
Thanks man
I'm listening to the silmarillion on a constant loop. Your uploads really help.
This was wonderful. Thank you!
This is awesome in depth video on Aratar. Thank you so much for this. Can you also cover lesser known Valar too. I find Vaire very interesting. She’s the least spoken of & mysterious. I feel she’s opposite of Ungoliant in context to weaving. She involves herself in the Valar discussion in support of Finwe marrying Indis.
Had a rubbish day at work, was very pleased to see another of your wonderful videos come up on my feed. Truly made my day, very interesting as always
You need to make one video with "Tolkien Explained" in the title, reading from some Tolkien wiki page, get all the people who love that stuff to subscribe, then get back to doing videos like these. Channel should have more subs than all those big channels who just summarize the stories in ten minutes.
Always excited to see a new video from you!
Love this content as per usual. Thanks ! 👍🌷
Excellent video 👌
I never heard of the Aratar. I even started re-reading Sil and have missed it. I'm going to start again.
It's a blink and you'll miss it reference very close to the start of the book. Then the word is never used again.
I hadn't connected these two things until now-there's a slight similarity between Varda and Galadriel, in that they both recognized an enemy hiding in plain sight before anyone else. Varda was the first to reject Melkor as an ally, and Galadriel was the first to distrust Sauron under his guise of Annatar.
One thing I've always wondered is what Oromë would have contributed to the world if it weren't for Melkor. He seems to be all about combatting evil. I suppose in this mythology hunting animals for food is considered inherently good and intended.
There is a sense in which I can understand dance being important in Tolkien's work. Dance is kind of a counterpart to music. Maybe she in some sense represents the movement of things being in harmony with the music.
As a person who has never been interested in video/online games, I never thought Tolkien's idea of power was tied to its effects on the physical world. There are plenty of gamers out there that need to watch this video and learn from it, because the lessons extend into real life.
Thanks for the video. I generally understood what the Aratar were in relation to the Valar as a whole but this really helped clarify it in my mind. I do have on question. Is there a more precise explanation of why a given Ainu is a Vala versus being a Maia? It may just be because we know so little about some of the "lesser" Valar but it's not clear to me why they are counted among the Vala (other than that's what Tolkien wrote) while some of the Maiar like Sauron, Eönwë, and Ossë have wide ranging abilities such that I'm not sure why they are not counted among the Valar.
Great question! Hope Steven answers this one in a video.😁👍
It seems the Aratar could also be described as "The Fundamentals", beings that are, well, Fundamental to existence itself. The others of the Valar are mighty, yes, but they complement existence by adding ornamentation and complexity to the Fundamental aspects needed for life to exist.
People who are into "power scaling" or whatever often disregard Nienna, but they're actually overlooking one of the most overpowered characters in the whole setting. If she were to weaponize her power, I think it would resemble that scene from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy when the depressed robot (Marvin, I think?) fires the empathy gun and the Vogons simply become incapacitated by depression. Orcs would just sorta keel over, muttering about how they don't even deserve to eat Elf-flesh, while the whips of their masters provide more relief than pain. And as the hosts of the Noldor and Vanyar hew down their crippled opponents with ease, Nienna's _true_ power would be focused elsewhere: in this scene, the camera pans to a nearby cliff, where a Balrog is hanging by its neck from its own fiery whip.
This is all pure bullshit, of course. I just thought it would be funny to speculate how Nienna would fight if that was actually in her nature.
I'd say, following the parameters that you've set out, it makes more sense to include Orome than it does to include Tulkas. Although Tulkas did leave Morgoth quaking in his boots there wasn't that much more to him (Still love you, Tulkas).
And Melkor was afraid of Varda and Orome and Manwe and...basically everyone who would challenge him :D . Typical Dark Lord!
@@TheRedBook He'd certainly jump behind a hedge if he saw Lobelia coming.
@@anchuisneoir3973 Especially if she was wielding a spoon. That would snap Anduril in two.
My opinion on the Aratar and the writings I have read from Tolkien is strength is equivalent to wisdom. Melkor, the first born of the Valar also the first song. He was the greatest because he watched all others come into existence. He wasn't the most powerful as in strength or abilities but, like an older sibling picking on a younger, he displayed knowledge of all the Valar. Manwe was the Valar who knew the very thoughts of Eru. His strength was in the ability to council with the father of all. Each have their strengths in the knowledge they choose to focus or the part they decided to sing. That is also the situation of the Valar to the Maiar. They all sang together the world into existence but the Valar were the writers of a specific chorus. They were the conductors and the Maiar the choir. If the Maiar were given the gift of free will such as man, I believe they would be able to become the writers of their own. That is what separates man from all the others. Sauron almost was an exception. He became awed by the strength and knowledge that Melkor possessed, he left Aulë for the more learned. His desire was harmony and peace. Melkors was corruption and distraction. The chaos which he caused and the mess it left was what seduced Sauron to Melkor because he could craft and create his will. Even after learning Melkor was destruction, Sauron followed him. Power is wisdom and that can not be taught
Great video! I kept expecting a tangent to spring up comparing the aratar with the oyarsa from Lewis's space trilogy; I'm sure the two of them brainstormed their "gods of the solar system below the God of All" mythologies together. I wonder if JRRK began with the notion of 7/8 planetary gods in the beginning. Would love to see that in a video. Cheers, mate
I don’t mind that you bring up mythologies that Tolkien would have been familiar with. I think the book “Planet Narnia” is quite eye opening to what his friend CS Lewis thought of the use of the Greek and Roman gods in the Christian medieval era. I am sure they all discussed how medieval literature utilized ancient gods to describe qualities and attributes of the Christian God. Similarly, Tolkien might have used the Maiar and Valar (and subgroup Aratar) to represent aspects of Eru Illuvatar, obviously not including the rebellious ones.
Cheers.
Well said.
Well done, no argument against here.
Pity was a very important theme in the works of J. R. R. Tolkien, after all, it was strongly mentioned and recorded of the pity of Bilbo towards Gollum.
Bump for the share
Summary:
The Ainur appeared out of Eru's thoughts and came to existence(Eä), there are many of them but the ones that transcend the most are called Valar.
The Valar are 14, from them 8 fall into the so called group Aratar(very noteworthy).
Many Ainur have "assistants" who tend to things in Arda on behalf of them.
The main antagonist of LOTR being Mairon, assistant of Aulë(one of the Aratar and thus also a Valar) who later became a servant of Melkor(once an Aratar but later removed from the order), and taking the name of Sauron.
This is what I came to understand from what I've read, please correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers!
Thank you
The Aratar, Valar and Mair none of them are important without Melkor. As Eru created them there aspects of of his thoughts each one embodies one of his aspects, but Melkor embodies all of them to a degree and he mostly embodies Eru's....rebellious side (best i can think of at the moment). Can you imagine what middle earth would be like under the rule of Manwe who has no concept of evil can't fathom it, it would be insane and that goes for the rest of them as they are all single minded. But with Melkor planting that seed their is rebellious thought trial by fire and a greater appreciation for life. So all hail Melkor the true embodiment of Eru. I tried to keep this sort and simple but theres so much i could highlight so people, Valar don't believe the hype. 😊
It's interesting how Nessa is almost never talked about even though she is one of the Valar. Do we know anything about her other than that she is fast?
She's a great dancer and the spouse of Tulkas.
That's the only other information about her that I can think of.
@@shawn092182 Seems like there should be more to her, but I guess Tolkien can't be expected to make them all crazy powerful, even though they are essentially "gods".
God your gorgeous silky scottish voice is so dreamy. I hope you become an audible narrator.
It's a bit late, but here is my thought: the Aratar are distinct from the other Valar in that they are directly involved in the governance of Arda, by way of their command of one elemental force or another, while beings like Tulkas or Nessa merely embody something majestic. Of course, that's still confusing, i the sense that beings like Orome have a role that's harder to define. But it's my best guess.
You're the best
For Frodo... And the algorithm
Maybe a good analogy for the Ainur is an orchestra, with Aratar leading different sections comprising both virtuosos and continuo players. Trouble is, it's too close an analogy to be particularly illuminating and though I'd love to develop it it is late so i'll just say my favourite is Yavanna and goodnight Godbless, RedBook x
A sacrifice to the Aratar of the algorithm
The High ones of Middle Earth ❤️
I think that Manwè,Aulè and Ulmo are the most important of them all,since without their spheres(earth,water and air)the other Valar (besides Varda)cannot access theirs
Yes, they are considered the chief 3, which I find interesting because with the Greek connection I'd place Namo in there but it does have an elemental importance as you mention with their spheres.
@@TheRedBook I think that Namo wouldnt be among them without Melkor,since i believe,that Melkor represents decay and entropy which are closely related to aging and death.Tell me your opinion
Death was still a natural part of the world before Melkor's corruption. His corruption of earth and those within it just hastened death. So, you could say he represents some form of decay but without him, Men would still follow their path - unless we believe the myth of Men in the story itself (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth) where they think that Melkor's corruption is what shortened the lives of Men from previously being immortal. I like to view that as a myth in the myth we are reading.
@@TheRedBook The Valr wanted to make all Arda like Valinor meaning a landscape immutable by time and that would be good for elves,but absolutely not for men,where it would wait them the same fate if they tresspassed the Blessed Realm.
So i think that Melkor inadvertently played a vital part in the lives of men,where he made them fear death so they strive to achieve great deeds in live while still receiving the gift of death
Wasn't Alue"the closest in technic to melker?same type of powers?
All hail the algorithm
We bow to its infinite wisdom and glory!
Hey, I would be curious: What is your opinion, why is it Turin who in most versions of the dagor dagorath is the one to destroy Morgoth? I realise, that he has every reason for revenge, maybe most of all characters, but that as a reason alone feels quite... flat compared to Feanor giving up the silmarills. One is a great character growth, the other is only revenge.
We have to remember that the Turin stories we ended up getting were not really finalised and the idea of Turin defeating Morgoth was not really set in stone. But in one early version Tolkien had some pretty strong words when it came to the whole Morgoth and Turin history - "So ended the tale of Turin the hapless; the worst of the works of Morgoth among Men in the ancient world". He was significantly affected by Morgoth. It's not so much that it is revenge out of some personal hatred of him but justice for the race of Men with Turin standing against Morgoth as their representative. It's something I should cover in more detail in a video. I've still not made a Turin video on the channel.
Oh, with that view it definitely makes a lot more sense, thanks a lot.
A Video about that would definitely be quite nice.
I love Greek mythology. It is third only to Celtic and Norse mythology, in my mind.
There are 8 notes in music. Vala-Valie pairs six. These couples, along with Ulmo and Nienna, seem to represent the 8 notes in music. But there are innumerable deities who participate in the Music of the Ainur. If these eight are fundamental frequencies, the other Ainur may be derivatives of these frequencies. Perhaps the Music of the Ainur has such a basis, who knows?
I think that's just forcing the numbers to work out. Can easily say there are 12 notes in western music(remember flats and sharps) . Even an octave is 7 notes before the 8th returns to the original note at a higher pitch. I don't think they represent musical notes at all.
@@TheRedBook I don't have any technical knowledge about music. Just the similarity of the numbers caused a flash of light in my head.
10:14 Lol, a bit of slight against Zeus, no?
Was Melian the greatest Maiar?
I'd say Oromë earns his spot, simply due to the fact that Tolkien specifically references him with the ridings of Fingolfin and Théoden. Tulkas is great, but he's really only mentioned throughout the cosmogony.
Presumably, Varda herself directly intervened when Sam called upon her while holding Galadriel's vial.
@@Uncle_Fred I meant that if there is debate over Oromë or Tulkas as Aratar, not that the rest aren't earned or referenced. But Elbereth has to be the most referenced of the Valar, not sure if I'd go so far as to say any of the Valar directly intervened with anything in LotR, except for Ulmo and the dreams of the hobbits.
@@nickolas.vicente I wouldn't even go as far as to say they intervened in any of those cases. It's almost like there is some omnipresence. Varda's name being able to ward off evil and bring forth light without her actually having to step in and do anything. It's like Gandalf invoking his service to Eru against the Balrog without Eru then helping Gandalf in the confrontation. That's how I view the Valar really. They are in the world itself physically but are part of the fabric of the world.
@@TheRedBook for sure, Aragorn explains it well enough that the very name of Elbereth is more deadly a weapon to the Witch-king than any else they could have used. I've been obsessing for a while over the dreams the hobbits have, it's clear that Frodo has a tremendous amount of foresight. But doesn't it make sense, that the actual visions of Gandalf and Valinor have to be given to him by Ulmo?
Making this video for kids means I can't listen to it at work because the player stops when I close the screen. I'd have to sit in front of the PC to watch this.
No idea what you are talking about. It's not set to made for kids. It's an issue on your side.
???? I think you meant "Setting" this video for kids. Am I right?
For the algorithm
You've made videos of the children of Eru, how making a video of the children of the Valar.
Hmmmm.......if one is unaccounted for.....Bombadil?
Unaccounted for?
I think Varda is a representation of The Blessed Mother from Catholic Theology. She sits enthroned with a crown of stars. Idk maybe I am reaching
Representation is right. She's just not Mary put into the story. As in, she is not actually Mary but is symbolic of positive traits that Tolkien admired. It's the same thing with Galadriel. No different from us viewing Gandalf's return as Christ-like despite him not actually being Christ. A Catholic is going to appreciate such things to a degree where the inclusion can almost be an unconscious one.
Make middle earth great again - Sauron during election campaign in the second age.
Honey don't talk about harm
?
"With any excuse to talk about Greek mythology," you say? Have you ever considered making videos on that subject? You'll have my likes, subscribe and views if you decide to make a Greek myth channel as well
I'd love to but it's really all about time. I struggle with time for getting videos made on this channel due to my job. Making videos on other mythologies (which I have been interested in before Tolkien) would be great. I just don't know how I'd manage to do it though.
@@TheRedBook That's understandable. You're basically working a few jobs already in many ways, adding another without the time to do so could be stressful to say the least. I appreciate all the time and effort you have put into your channel, and thanks for another great video.
Certainly feels like a second job. I put almost as much time into it as I do my regular job. It's why I do fewer videos now but more detailed ones. I'm not really chasing the algorithm anymore :D
Thanks!
unsubscribed bc i dont need to see your live pop up in my feed for 10 days in a row
I have no idea who you are
Snuff the flame imperishable. It was a bloody great mistake. 🔥 🧯