Morgoth's Ring | The Externalisation of Power
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- What is Morgoth's Ring? What makes it more than the title of a volume of The History of Middle-earth and how does it relate to the One Ring of Sauron? Here, I give an introduction to what Tolkien meant when Morgoth poured himself into Arda and why he would choose to do this.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
1:18 - Externalisation of power
2:29 - Melkor and the Valar
4:45 - How and why Morgoth's Ring was created
7:44 - The diminishment of Melkor
10:22 - Morgoth's Ring and the void
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► Artwork:
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Morgoth and the Silmarils - By Justin Gerard
Map of Middle-earth - By Diana Benocilla
Orc - By TheRafaArts
Moria troll - By Rui Gonçalves
Ancalagon the Black - By Çağlayan Kaya Göksoy
The Vanyar - By Alexey Rudikov
Melkor destroying the Lamps - By William Thomy
Utumno - By Silinde-Ar-Feiniel
Melkor - By Rami-fon-Verg
Morgoth - He Who Arises in Might - By Dymond Starr
Music of the Ainur - By John Pitre
Giver of gifts (Tale of Adanel) - By Simona Brunilde
Manwë - By kimberly80
Cuiviénen - By aegeri
Morgoth - The Silmarillion - By Guillem H. Pongiluppi
Fingolfin challenges Morgoth - By PeteAmachree
Morgoth vs Fingolfin - By Guillem H. Pongiluppi
Melkor returns - By stefan meisl
Dragon's of Morgoth - By Anato Finnstark
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
► Thumbnail art :
Morgoth - Rick Ritchie (artstation.com/rinthcog)
► Audio:
The following music was used for this media project:
Thunderbird by Kevin MacLeod
Link: incompetech.filmmusic.io/song...
License: filmmusic.io/standard-license
► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#tolkien #morgoth #melkor #legendarium - Zábava
This guy is the delivering the highest level Tolkien discussions at the moment. Take notes girls and boys
This is really the main theme of the whole Tolkien legendarium, isn’t it? In a way, the Two Trees were also an externalization and concentration of the Valar’s’ power - the Valar’s ring. It is strongly implied that the Valar came to realize eventually that this was a kind of mistake - the local concentration of the life giving power given to them, not to mention the Eldar themselves. At one point - and I think literally only one that I know of, it might have been in the letters - Tolkien makes clear that Melkor’s corruption doesn’t just kill the Two Trees when he stabs them with his spear, but actually contaminates and mixes with the last remaining speck of the original light that was later used to make the sun and moon, and hence is then literally radiated onto middle earth, both awakening the sleeping life there (Valar) but also corrupting it (Morgoth) so that it then became inextricably mixed with decay and mortality. For the Elves, as Mandos predicted “great light shall be for their waning”. The Elves don’t become mortal in Middle Earth, but they do suffer from an accumulating weariness - their main driving issue ever after. Also no accident that this is the exact point, it is implied, than men awoke - as foreshadowed both in the second theme of the song, and in Iluvatar’s later assertion that anything Melkor thinks he alone devised will eventually be shown to simply be a part of a greater tapestry devised by the One.
Obviously the Valar and the Eldar, especially the Noldor would revere the Silmarils after this as the last remaining speck of the original, unsullied Light, but the whole “the Fates of Arda lies locked in them” part kind of went over my head when I first read the Silmarillion. It also seems to be implied, between the lines, that those last specks of the unsullied light will somehow play a part of the redemption of the world “after the last battle where the original vision of Eru will be restored” - like some kind of cosmic backup drive. But it is also implied that men, the part of the tapestry formed most by the mixing the light and dark will also play a fundamental role. It is clear this particular thing, the mixing of the light and the dark to create something new and unanticipated was for Tolkien Eru’s answer to Melkor - not just something corrupted but in the end the thing (or idea) that Morgoth feared the most.
Excellent essay! I very much like the idea of the Two Trees being like the "Valar's Ring" and the Silmarils as a "cosmic backup drive". I also agree that the mixing to "create something new and unanticipated" was indeed part of Iluvatar's ultimate goal.
This idea with Morgoth is so poetic, dark, fascinating and brilliant of Tolkien. I love his ideas of evil or power being dispersed, there are always sacrifices that those who want more control and power have to make. It also shows the genius of Eru who created everything, he set forth these limitations for evil, not fully controlling them, or taking away their free will, but setting up consequences for those who go down certain paths. I wonder if Morgoth or Sauron debated over these choices? Did they fully understand the consequences of their actions before doing so? Did they have an understanding of these limitations that Eru had created for situations they were about to embark upon? Thanks for the video.
I agree and I think the fact that everything they attempted still fit in with this overall plan meant that they'd maybe try even harder to rebel. Can you imagine the frustration of Melkor? Doing more and more but still proving to be an instrument of creation instead of the one wielding the instrument.
@@TheRedBook Interesting, I tend to think that Morgoth once he gained this name spent little thoughts on Eru and was more restricted to the physical world in his mindset, too. The fact that his goals devolved from being God to Medieval Kingship is really the biggest tragedy of his character 😉 I kind of despise him for achieving so little after destroying the Two Trees.
@@Crafty_Spirit - Does the Catholic Church claim Satan is trying to replace God, or just corrupt as many people away from Christianity to Satanism as possible?
when you seek to control the other , you lose it
ultimately you only have control of yourself .. and if you give that up sovereignty to impose control over others , you become bound to their sovereignty >>
as morgoth became bound to the earth .. even though his agency was cast into the far reaches, separated from the earth .. into the void
@@tominiowa2513 The general Christian thought is that Satan's original goal was to replace God, or at least become his equal. To what extent he thought, or thinks, it possible is unknown. Regardless, he fights as hard as he can, and the best way to fight is to target humans. Humans, with wills of our own and now-corrupted bodies, can easily be persuaded to fight against God ("Satanism" as a religion is irrelevant, if you're an atheist, Muslim, agnostic, or "bad" Christian that's all he needs). This gives him his best weapon: victims. God loves us, his children, and seeing us choose evil over him hurts him more than almost anything else.
But we see that Satan (really it's "the Satan", meaning "the Enemy" in Hebrew) has limits both in power and cunning. We see in the book of Job that he wants to hurt people, but must hold back when told. And we see in the crucifixion of Jesus at the hands of evil men that God outsmarted him and introduced the only way man could be redeemed: the blood of a perfect man, made only possible by God taking on flesh. This is part of Tolkien's allegory: that evil is ultimately self-destructive. Satan could never win, not only because he lacks the power of God, but because evil lacks the traits required for eternal victory - traits inherent to God by his nature.
One interesting quote from Morgoth's Ring is that, sometime after the War for the Sake of the Elves, Manwë directly consults Eru (IIRC to approve the Valar´s decision on the Finwë/Míriel/Indis situation). Eru tells Manwë that (quote probably not quite exact) "the Valar should have contested Melkor´s dominion of Arda much earlier, and that they had lacked estel--they should have trusted that in a just war Eru would not allow the world to be destroyed, or to be so damaged that the Children could not live in it."
A speculative theory on the One Ring: did it give its owner more power by allowing them to tap into Melkor's dispersed power in Arda? Power doesn't really come out of nowhere in Tolkien's universe, so how did Sauron become more powerful than he was previously by putting his power into the Ring, unless the Ring allowed him to gather power from somewhere else? Likewise, the Three Rings may have allowed their bearers to make use of the power that Manwë (Vilya), Ulmo (Nenya) and Aulë (Narya) dispersed into their respective realms of sky, water, and earth/fire. But the amount of power these Valar had dispersed was much less than Melkor had, so the One Ring could control them.
That theory's pretty good yo
@@grassblock7668 yeah this whips
I'm adding this theory to my headcanon.
Yeah, my read on it was always that the "shadow" (the one that the poem says lies in the land of Mordor) the darkness and corruption that permeated Mordor and which Sauron could manipulate, was the creation and/or essence of Morgoth.
Sauron was it's new master, but not its creator.
Another fascinating exposition on parts of Tolkien's universe that I myself will never have the patience to read. I appreciate these videos very much
Well worth reading but I can understand the apprehension!
Audio books are quite good if you are put off by the reading them although obviously not every text is available audible have a pretty good selection. I'd recommend Children of Hurin read by Christopher Lee
@bastiat Now, now, there's no need to be rude, sir. You don't even know the guy, so don't be so quick to judge.
You could possibly listen to Hobbit LOTRs but to really understand and appreciate the rest of his work… it’s too detailed and complicated to use audiobooks IMO no way you can pull out the nuance and detail required
Thank you for this! The concept of Arda itself being 'Morgoth's Ring,' so that his will is indissoluble from the existence of the world, goes a long way toward explaining everything from the fading of the Elves to the overall pessimism of most of the characters in Tolkien's work.
I remain fascinated by the prospect of what the Silmarillion would have become if Tolkien had followed through on his ideas recorded in (the book) Morgoth's Ring. The role of the Valar fits in quite well with this conception of Morgoth, but other ideas like the existence of Valinor don't seem as compatible.
Great video! This aspect of Tolkien's legendarium is particularly fascinating to me, since it begs the question on the nature of evil, something the Professor struggled with at many points. This idea that the world was corrupted to a point where evil cannot be simply uprooted (like in the parable of the wheat and the chaff) fits very nicely in the Legendarium! And the way Morgoth's attempt to disperse his will through Arda ends in a loss of personal power is another echo of the ultimately self-destructive nature of evil (at least in Tolkien's view).
Cool thoughts here. You are right, I think Tolkien's thoughts on Melkor's nature was very well fleshed out and substantial. There's less confusion than with something like the Orcs. The depth of Melkor's evil goes way beyond what we get to read about in The Silmarillion.
The wheat and the chaff can’t be uprooted until both have fully grown and are fully distinguishable from each other. This dynamic occurs within Tolkien’s world as well as our own - the elves are not purged of their evil for thousands of years until Morgoth is thrown down by the Valar. Humanity still struggles in Tolkien’s world as it does in our own. The chaff and the wheat are not yet fully mature amongst us.
Thanks. The book "Morgoth's Ring" was so interesting, and no one talks enough about it.
Definitely. It's my go to volume of HoMe. I mention it often on the channel and there's still a lot to talk about!
@@TheRedBook it's one of my favorite volumes of HoME as well.
I didn't even know it existed somehow
@@elizabethjansen2684 there's a library of obscure stories Tolkien worked on his whole life and never published.
That book explains how Sauron made the Ring.
@@TheRedBook Harry Potter's "Hoarcruxes" (whatever) are clearly a concept taken from the book.
This phenomenon is essentially intertwined with the concepts of sub-creation, incarnation and fall in Tolkien mythology. I think Melkor can be better understood if these concepts and the relationship between them are well understood.
Yes, and unfortunately, many of these aspects are not found in the published Silmarillon. People have to look a little deeper into the writings to understand Melkor fully!
Your channel brings to life the world of Middle Earth like no other. The detail and nuance in your exposé make us feel like Middle Earth existed once upon a time. I guess that’s the real genius of Tolkien.
Thanks! And yes, the channel would be nothing without the genius of Tolkien. I just like to share my thoughts on that genius :D
Thank you for exploring fea and hroa. I had never connected the waning of the elves with the corruption of Arda and therefore equivalent to the corruption of Eru’s gift of mortality to Men.
The concept of fading will probably be discussed at a later date but yes you've got it - Melkor is to blame for the corruption of the physical matter of Arda including the bodies of mortals and immortals. Such was the depth of his marring of Arda :)
These videos are truly amazing, from your soft clear voice to the seamless/beautiful visual production. As a lifelong lover of and delver into Tolkien's works and cosmology, these vids are also highly integrative to my own thoughts and theories. Thank you so much 🌟
Tolkien was a master of tragedy, in both understanding existing myths, human systems of ontology, and codependent energies and in creating such unique and aesthetic analogies to those systems. The unfulfilled, corrupted, or otherwise altered promise of Eru's vision keeps compounding itself throughout the Ages, causing utter suffering and downfall even through great works and expanding civilizations whose creative forces echo through time. This is verbalized perhaps most clearly through a human analogue in the Akallabêth/Atalantë, which is yet another story of great promise being crumbled and marred. "Sic transit gloria mundi".
The inevitability of corruption is what Melkor managed to sow in Arda; but what he probably couldn't imagine was that from each downfall there would rise opposite forces of respect, rehabilitation, and safekeeping (such as the remaining Faithful who were able to flee the destruction of Númenor).
It's fascinating to me that Tolkien was able to also create gods/Powers who were basically eternal but not omnipotent; the Gift of Death, for instance, is something that eludes the understanding of practically all beings except Ilúvatar. The more powerful any character becomes, the more removed they appear to be from the core existentialism of the Music of the Ainur. I think Olórin was one of few who may have grasped this and other high-concept aspects of the Music, through his dedication to mercy.
Just as the evil of Sauron was removed by the destruction of the One Ring, the evil of Melkor can be removed by the destruction of Arda. This is exactly why Dagor Dagorath is necessary.
Fantastic summary of some of the most interesting of Tolkien’s notes! Great job!
Having a type of OCD where I’m compelled to try to be in control of everything around me this story about Morgoth hit home a little hard.
It was his obsession with control that lead to his weakening, eventual imprisonment, resulting in missing out on life with his creations, or his children, and he was utterly despised by everyone!
I really need to chill out!
The thing about morgoth is people think he's ugly, that he was twisted and gory and outwardly grotesque but really, he was beautiful, so beautiful he used that to his advantage when twisting the minds of other humanoid beings. They didn't see him as evil or cruel or dark they saw him as beautiful and full of light charisma and likely had an aura hinting at incredible sex for those who looked on his visage.
If he had taken form in his original uncorrupted status he would have appeared beautiful. The early part of the Silmarillion is clear that when he descended with the rest of the valar in their mission to create the earth, his extreme malice had turned him into something dark and monstrous. He wasn't capable of assuming a beautiful form after that.
What you state is more true of Sauron though. He wasn't as corrupted as him in the early days. Unlike those other fallen Maiar that became balrogs, he could assume a pleasing form, as he did as Annatar when he created the rings with the elves. He could use his beauty to deceive people. Later, after his body was destroyed during the destruction of Numenor, he could only take on a dark monstrous form. He had become more like Morgoth at that point. I got the impression Morgoth always appeared monstrous from the moment he descended into Arda. His malice was just too great. He couldn't disguise it.
It's possible that "the morgoth ingredient/element" was dispersed in the universe/Eä (galaxies, planets, stars). That would explain the entropy, the cosmic indifference and the death of the universe. I think that the history of middle earth - HOME say something about Melkor's dominion over all hröa/matter in Eä.
Ps: Sorry, English is not my native language.
Interesting thought, though Morgoth's Ring is said to be related to Arda itself and not Eä. Arda being the World and not the Universe. Though, the Planets are represented in different ways in the Legendarium. The Silmaril upon Vingilot represents Venus, as an example. It's a nice idea though, thanks for sharing it.
@@TheRedBook well, there is something in The Silmarillion about the cosmic power of Melkor over "other regions" of Eä: 'And there was strife between Melkor and other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he would; but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart'.
Your English is very good and perfectly understandable.
with original Melkor second only to God..it is possible and i like to think of it this way..
as if entropy a heat death are evil things
The wonderfully heavy foreboding character of your delivery is entirely in keeping with the subject of your videos. I wonder if you might consider a video on the prophecies of Arda such as the dwarves' conjecture that a power yet to come would be required to defeat the Balrog of Moria or Glorfindel's prediction about the likely doom of the Witch King or Huor's declamation to Turgon of the rising of a star. Many thanks for your remarkably entertaining work.
Good ideas there. I'm dedicating a video to Glorfindel and the Witch-king for sure but those other ideas are intriguing. As interesting as the idea of Oaths as well. I'll take this on board.
@@TheRedBook Keyboard Dancer's description of your delivery is perfect and so much better than I could've written. I get wrapped up in the music and your voice and completely miss the quotes on the screen.
@@shelane1781 Thanks for the comment :D it's great to read that people enjoy the content so much!
Thank you so much for this answer - really interesting with the right amount of context for those of us that are not Tolkein scholars.
Such an underrated Channel! You deserve Many more subs and with this content you will get there eventually.
I think I do :P but I'm happy that the channel is growing. As long as people enjoy the content and I enjoy making it, then it's worth doing!
Let me tell you right away that you will be the greatest Tolkien CZcams channel if you keep like this 👌🏻
Thanks for joining the channel Raul. Your support is honestly very much appreciated. Thanks for the kind comment about the channel. It's grown well over the last week and we will see if that continues :D
There's a couple of Morgoth/Melkor and related questions I have.
Where exactly did Morgoth flee to after Tulkas first came to Arda? Or perhaps more precisely what is the difference between where he fled and where the Valar put him after his defeat and capture after the War of Wrath?
How did Melkor's personal diminishment factor in to his fear of Tulkas that caused Melkor to flee? This was before the War of the Powers and at least to me it is unclear when Melkor started diminishing himself to permanently mar Arda.
Interesting question because it does say that when he fled he went to brood in the "outer darkness", which we know as a name for the Void and the place Melkor was sent at the end of the War of Wrath. I said to someone yesterday (or the day before) that I would be making a video about what all these different regions mean..
However, despite the confusion surrounding the name, there are really two places called the Void. One is the void outside of Arda (the World), this would be the vast empty spaces of Eä. The other is the void outside of Eru's dwelling, outside of the Timeless Halls. Melkor was put in the latter, outside of "created space", a timeless void. He fled to the other, the empty region of "a lack of creation". They are different, if that makes sense?
Ah, for the second question...once again I might have to save that for a video because the role of Tulkas has been way overblown in my own opinion. To me, Melkor fled due to this new unknown, this new figure he hadn't faced before. He didn't "lose" to him or something but I do have a script (about 50% complete) that discusses the role of Tulkas and Melkor in more detail. I will say though that Melkor would have started diminishing in some way as soon as he declared Arda as his and when he began working against the plans of the Valar.
Very Relevant that the entire world is Morgoth's Ring. Your best video I must say.
Another great thoughtful, philosophical and informative vid :) Please keep it up, I look forward to your posts and I really like the style and format, you've a different tone and pace from a lot of the other JRRT tubers which chimes with me (not to knock the other tubers, most of whom I'm also subbed to!!) All the best :D
Thanks :) glad the content is appealing. Always been my aim to do something a little different!
@@TheRedBook btw I have a query that might be worth a vid - if Sauron had the One Ring during the Battle of the Last Alliance, how come he was beaten back into Barad-dûr and eventually "slain" in battle?
I think some of what I cover here ties in nicely with my video on the lack of direct action on the part of the Valar. If you haven't already, check out my video on The Valar and Middle-earth | The Tolkien Legendarium - czcams.com/video/ZgHjDqwOdqM/video.html
This isn't my first video on Morgoth and it certainly won't be the last...
This video was 1 topic that I already knew about, but good one nonetheless.
I await your questions on Discord, and your resent critique of my manuscript in Gmail.
So is Morgoth's Ring one way that Tolkien uses to present the concept of original sin?
@@MistaGify - I thought Discord was what Melkor did during the Music of the Ainur?
Sorry 😉
Potential future topic - your thoughts on the following in Tolkien's legendarium.
Magic is an inherent power of a being (e.g., Ulmo calming or roiling the sea).
Sorcery is the channeling/directing of power external to a being for a purpose (e.g., the Witch King casting a spell that increases the effectiveness of Grond against the outer gate of Minas Tirith).
@@tominiowa2513 Haha!
Could this also explain the existence of Tom Bombadil? If Melkor were not originally completely evil, but had some goodness in him, could he not have exorcized that part of him and also poured it into Arda, imprisoning it in a sense, thereby leaving the evil or ambitious part of Melkor to remain unsullied by love and care and goodness, allowing that remainder of him to become Morgoth?
I've found a real gem of a channel here!
Can’t believe I’ve just find this channel! Keep up the great work, your videos are great!
Glad you have found it :D , thanks for the comment!
The Silmarillion is filled with great stories
Certainly is!
Well thought and explained. Top-tier Tolkien content.
Appreciate that Shawn :)
Great video and very well explained. Many thanks, much appreciated!
You're welcome Robert, happy to read that you enjoyed it!
Thanks for another great video, as always Covered in huge detail
No need to thank me, though I could have gone into more detail - people switch off after a while, it seems. I'll just have to cover more of this through other discussions.
Support my project on Patreon : czcams.com/users/stevengibb
I just found your channel!
It is so tastefully done!
Style with grace.
Thanks!
Thanks a lot :D happy you've found the channel. Appreciate the comment :)
Loving your approach and video structure...
I appreciate that!
Excellent. Thank you. Amazing quality
Beautifully done.
you should do video about Mouth of Sauron, and keep going, I really love your videos
Thanks, Jonáš. Good idea! After I finish my 3rd part of my Is Sauron a confusing character response, the next one I have lined up for that is related to two theories I read about The Mouth of Sauron. So, it will definitely happen :).
yes, I definitely think you'll make a nice video about him, it sounds like I love you, but I really like your videos, for example, more than from a : broken sword, men of the west, etc, you'll doing them greatly
@@pavelcerny3724 - I hope you'll enjoy it when it is posted. Hopefully, you won't have to wait too long!
Not at all, it's always great to hear the positive feedback. Makes it really worthwhile knowing people enjoy the content so much.
Mouth of Sauron and anythign related to Numenor or Black Numonoreans
Excellent video! Having read most of Tolkien's works, and admired his creation of a whole universe, with a primary God and gods, goddesses, and an evil god, I am amazed at the depth of Tolkien's exploration of good vs. evil in his story. However, as Tolkien admitted, it is influenced by his Catholic beliefs, but yet, he grapples with good and evil, and all that between, with great subtlety and thru the stories.
That was very interesting.. thanks for putting that together I really enjoyed it
Thank you Paul :)
All of the Valar sang a different piece of the world into being, even Melkor. He is necessary to the balance even though he is viewed as a villain
Certainly. Eru adopts his discord into the music itself. He's as much a valid contributor to the world and part of the world as anyone else.
This was superbly explained
Thank you :D always good to hear!
Right on. Thanks for sharing.
'... and that reeeeeaaally pissed him off. So began the Second Age.'
That's just how I would have closed out the video, anyway😌
Tolkien distilled his theological understanding of Satan sublimely through the characters of Morgoth and Sauron. Why this isn't studied more I will never know.
So the Dichotomy of Has-Satan vs Lucifer who are separate but conflated?
This really shows just how much a genius Tolkien was .
I've watched your channel for over a year and I have always enjoyed your works. Recently, I got into this book and it fascinated me. In Morgoth's Rings, there is a concept called Arda Healed in the Andreath and Finrod debate for which I don't fully understand. Specifically about the Finrod's revelation that: Is it Men's true destiny that is not seen from the music and vision of Eru, is to heal Arda? If it is then how Men suppose to do that. I would love to know your takes and if you could make a videos then it would be wonderfull for me.
Lovely video and artwork. Keep going with the videos 🇮🇹👋
Thank you Ella, rest assured, there will be plenty more content to come!
Morgoth filling valleys whenever the Valar make them or leveling mountains when they raise them just makes me picture a petulant child who does the opposite of whatever the parent does or wants just to spite them. It’s like a reverse copycat tactic
Excellent Video
You say melkor would “fill valleys” and “level mountains”, when I believe the text said he would “throw down mountains and raise up valleys”, which I always interpreted as he made valleys in to mountains and mountains into valleys. I guess it depends on how much he raised up or threw down. I believe his intention was to create the inverse of whatever Illuvatar made.
I think we are really saying the same thing there to be honest. But it wasn't about undoing Eru's work, it was undoing the work of the Valar, those who were shaping the world at that time.
@@TheRedBook I know it’s a minor distinction and I’m not saying you’re wrong. I just interpreted it that way. What you were saying was that he made everything level, where I’m saying he made everything opposite.
Besides that, what I understand is the Valar made the world by “playing their instruments” and melkor knew “all the instruments” and attempted to change the song they played to be his own, when the conductor, creator of the instruments and writer of the song was Eru. The changes played out to be the creation of the races and the shape of the world. Then the result of the song was seen.
Nicely done
Each new video better than the previous!
Have you ever considered the relationship between Morgoth and Sauron? I know you have a video about Sauron claiming to be Morgoth. If I remember correctly, Tolkien says that Sauron was a more effective Dark Lord than Morgoth. Could Sauron have had his own agenda even as far back as the First Age?
I think the next one is pretty good. It is ready to go but I'll be making it live on Monday again.
Of course! The only problem is the variety of videos. I have writings about the comparison between Morgoth and Sauron, especially in terms of what Tolkien meant by "effective", a comparison of their motives, and wisdom. The only reason I haven't made it yet is that, if i'm not careful, every second video will be Morgoth or Sauron. So, I'm attempting to make sure the content is quite diverse. This will definitely happen though!
@@TheRedBook Lol, if I wasn't actually suggesting this and thinking the same about focusing too much on Morgoth. :P
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Still, he's my favourite character to discuss. This will definitely be one of the videos I will do though :)
That was awesum!
What I get from this, is that a mans will for power over others, a mans will for praise, will for honour and pride provided to him by others, makes him weaker. Because he is no longer self-relient, and deeply invested in others - and not in a self fulfiling way, he is no longer capable of drawing his happines, strength and meaning from within, he dependadnt for this solely on others.
Brilliantly explained
Thanks Steve. I could talk about Morgoth all day!
This was excellent.
Thank you Ákos :)
The only one who was forced into an ugly form was Sauron after he was defeated by the Valar and prevented from changing shape ever again! He was fixed in a form that looked like an evil elf after his temptation of Celebrimbor when designing and building the rings of power. It was only with the ring that he could don his armor and look as he did in the war that cut his finger with the ring on it destroying his physical form.
Very interesting choice of words for the video title, I came into this thinking I was about to watch a very different video
I'm VERY surprised that you are the first to tell that joke after 9 months or whenever I uploaded the video.
@@TheRedBook I'm just incredibly childish
In other words, it's Morgoth's Ring. We just live in it.
I have heard many readers ask that if iluvatar knows what will happen then why would he allow morgoth's corruption to become a part of the great song if he didn't have to? My personal answer to this, Is that iluvatar not only sees what will happen, but what can happen as well. And while we don't know the plan of iluvatar, I think it would be safe to say that the creation he is striving to create can only be reached by allowing the evil to play a part in it. With his creation only being able to reach an enlightened state a baptism of fire as it were. No other way if you think about it
Because he was involved in the creation of the universe I thought it was more likely his essence was part of the world. Because Eru allowed Melkor's discord to be part of creation he always had some sort of influence upon the world, regardless of if he knew or not. He doesn't instill fear and cause corruption, it was always there because of the discord. He just built on them in people and things. That section in the chapter 1 sounds exactly like what happened in the discord. Brought evil out of good, fear out of hope. Eru allowed his desires to come forth. So everything that happens to everyone and everything ever on Arda is all part of the discord playing. It's Melkor vs Eru, but also the Ainur. The universe is Eru and the Ainur's discord with Melkor. Given what he is I thought he'd have a more subtle deeper connection to the world. At best this sounds, sorry to say, surface level. Meaning he just affects things on the surface, directly. Sauron's Ring seems more to what I'd envisioned. The way it affects people and things around it. Rousing the part of them that is the discord.
Very well done
Thank you very much!
I love how after two world wars, the best he could fantasize the world to be is " Arda Marred"
I see the marring of Arda as Melkor's response to being denied the Secret Fire, and then being singled out and challenged by Eru during the Ainulindale. Infusing himself into and corrupting the matter of Arda was the solution to creating a work of evil that could not be turned to the greater glory of Eru at least in Melkor's mind. The marring of Arda and torturing and raping the Firstborn to create the orcs were Melkor's way of saying, "If I can't have my way, then neither will you."
Seeing his master diminish in power over time, Sauron's workaround to externalizing power and retaining it at the same time was the One Ring. Would he be diminished and vulnerable without the One? Yes. But, who in Middle Earth could wrest it from his hand? Certainly not the Noldor, whom he slaughtered in a frenzy from his home in Mordor around the Misty Mountains to Hollin and into Eriador. As for men, they were easily manipulated and corrupted. He knew their weaknesses and pressure points no matter how powerful they might become militarily. By the time he was done, even the best and most blessed of them would be singing Hallelujah to Melkor and barbequing their own kin. Deceiver? The Cruel? That's God King Marion the Freakin' Genius to you! What could possibly go wrong?
Great vid
Cheers, Jake :)
I had no idea about Morgoth's ring, this was absolutely fantastic. The concept of Morgoth's ring puts Tolkien's genius on another level now.
Great to hear from someone who hadn't heard of this concept before :D
Great video
Thank you :)
Amazing content
Well you would say that Morgoth ;)
@@TheRedBook 😁😁😁
While the Valar could not completely destroy Morgoth and his corruption without destroying Arda, Eru would have had that power. That Eru does not implies that the actions of Morgoth serve a greater end (likely one that only Eru sees).
While I think you are right, there's also the fact that Eru doesn't seem like he would intervene in that kind of direct way anyway. i know he has intervened before but just stepping in to smite the big bad guy just doesn't fit.
@@TheRedBook At first I was going to point out Eru did exactly that for Ar-Pharazon and his Numenorian invasion fleet. But it does make sense once you consider these were the Children of Illuvatar. It wasn't the Valar's place to destroy them or discipline them. It was up to Eru to make the final decision on how to deal with the Numenoreans.
Traditionally the religions with an omnipotent and supposedly good Gods had struggled explaining evil. The idea of Melkor’s ring does in elegant and masterly. And mirrors the tale of the Ainulindalë. Integrating evil in the song as suffering is integrated in life.
Thanks!
Thank you for the generosity David, glad you are liking the content!
Morgoth Started his corruption before the creation of the world , when he interjected discord into the song of the Ainur, which Eru Iluvitar himself knew would happen and allowed. So Morgoth was needed to meet the ambitions of Eru Iluvitar.
New sub
Great video
Thanks :)
Oft evil will doth evil mar. This truism from The Professor plays out in his work in many ways across the ages of Arda.
Dang!!!! What a vid!!!!
Nice video. Melkor power was in all Arda and inside the creatures he corrupted. Impossibile to eradicate if not destroying completely the world. That's what happened with the Dagor Dagorath. Then the following new music of the Ainur to create a new better world
In what concrete way is the marring of Arda different from the discord Melkor introduced into the song of the Ainur? I know it entailed different actions on the part of Morgoth, and had different effects on the world. Yet, I fail to understand why Morgoth even needed to disseminate his essence into the physical matter of Arda, as the corrupting influence of the discordant song of the Ainur already tarnished Eru’s perfect vision for Eä and thereby surely could be said to have already ‘marred’ Arda?
Do you think of them as different acts? I perceived the Music of the Ainur to be the big picture overview. and then they enter to see what they have wrought. I think of it like writing the plot and story for a video game or stage play and playing the game to act it out.
1- the 2 rings show us the diference in power between Melkor and Sauron
2- the christian influences make me feel that they dont absolutely belong to the wrappings of the story being presented
3-that way the video puts it, Melkor´s is a cautionary tale about ambition and going against the will of God, even if God doesnt actually seem to be very clear in communicating.
4- So isnt all acording to illuvatar´s will? free will is a hard concept for me to grasp. Melkor was a part of illuvar, made true by him. How have Melkor´s choices bring evil to the world? Did he create evil where there was none? did he simply allow the worst parts of his personality come forth and spill to the world? if so were not those parts made by illuvatar?
5- did illuvatar have any plans or did he just let the creations of his creations do as they pleased? if Melkor had remained Melkor what would be is role in the world? to be under the rule of one less powerful than him( by the words of illuvatar himself) ? what would be his domain? it seems most things are taken care of, with each ainur having a sphere of influence.
i find melkor story overall pretty sad : being a part of eru himself maybe a part of himself ( the envious part the controlling and almost tyranical part of eru ) eru wanted defeated in the end.
in tha case melkor had no choice in his actions and all he did was just to increase the beauty ( and epicness ^^ ) of the world
IDK he coud have been great maybe ^^ love the character tho but manwe will always be my favorite ( with nienna )
I believe we are supposed to be sympathetic towards even the evilest of characters, or it's better to say, we should pity them. Melkor was the most creative in original nature so it is no surprise that with all of his gifts, he desired more than others. He just desired too much. He's possibly my favourite character.
the characters are so deep we can just thank sir tolkien for the amazing characters and story he created staying relevant almost 60 ( or so dont know ) years later.
@@TheRedBook So basically Melkor was the most human out of all the Valar. Food for thought
Have one. It’s cool
You state that Sauron could be eradicated by the destruction of the one ring, but as you have covered in other videos, he wasn’t totally eradicated even when the one ring was destroyed… his spirit was still present on some level.
Yeah, probably the wrong word to use. Really meant the utter defeat and not complete destruction.
@@TheRedBook yep, good videos btw… very well made and I like your visual selections.
It's not too far off to suggest his power in Middle-earth had been eradicated.
Morgoth's Ring was all of Arda---Remember what is said in the Silmarillion, how Melkor was the greatest of the Ainur, and had a part in everything the Valar designed and fashioned......He polluted the First Theme of the Music of the Valar, and as a result, there was no part of Arda that did not know evil at one point or another, including Aman.....
Yes, I get all that but I'm quoting Tolkien. I can't help it if he calls it unmarred. Even the name Aman in Sinarin (Avon) means "Unmarred State". Basically, with everything tainted from the "beginning", Aman is as free from it as anywhere on Earth. It's still called Unmarred though by comparison.
These "rings" are like the Horcruxes from Harry Potter: Sauron poured part of his essence into the ring and Melkor his into middle earth. And the Valar put some of their essence into the trees.
So… in a corporate model of Arda would you say that Eru is Chairman of the board, Melkor CEO, and Manwë Chief Operating Officer?
🧐 🤣 😉
Eru is more like the 99% owner and Melkor is in that 1% thinking he holds the power 😅
On the subject of Sauron When he was defeated why was he not taken to valenor why was he taking nemenor and why did they try to take the one ring from him when he put on the one ring on the elves had taken their rings off so does that mean they had their rings off until it was cut from his hand
To take him to Valinor by force, the West would have to come and take him. They were no longer interfering so directly after the War of Wrath. I have a video related to that called "Of the Valar in Middle-earth"
He was taken to Numenor as a prisoner. He had declared himself King of Men and the King of Numenor took exception to that. Sauron saw that he couldn't defeat that force so he knelt before the King. He was taken as a hostage and there began his corruption of them.
The Elves removed their rings when Sauron wore the One and attempted to dominates them. He went to war with them over it. They never wore them while he held the one. When he was defeated at the end of the Second Age, they began to use them. They went to war with Sauron in the Last Alliance because they saw he was a threat that wasn't going away and he was attacking them. They didn't go specifically to destroy the ring but to defeat Sauron. When they then had the chance to destroy it, Isildur kept it. But the war was won.
So the second question is the elves took off the rings one melkor put his on So when he was taking prisoner to nemenor he still had his ring on the entire time he was there so does that mean the Elves still kept their rings off until the one ring was cut from his hand
You mean Sauron, and yes when they discovered the had made the One Ring, they never used their rings again until he lost the One Ring.
Great video. If you're open to a suggestion, maybe there is way to avoid speaking over sections of the video with differing text? I found I had to pause the video often to read Tolkien's words then listening to yours.
Again, great video, as always!
Thanks, and yeah that makes sense. Sometimes those shorter quotes I put in the videos are quotes I've thought of after I've recorded and while I'm editing.
I can maybe try reading them when they are more than a line or two. If they are only a line or two im guessing most can read them quickly. Will see if I can do it when I'm making the next one.
@@TheRedBook ah, that makes sense then. They're great, either way. It's nice having actual quotes to back up/expand on/reenforce what you're saying.
I've only recently discovered your videos. Solid work! Great artwork, topics, and the music isn't too distracting.
Love all your content, but that's not why I'm here today. I'm here today to say that I could listen to you read a phone book or an unabridged dictionary, and I mean, all day long. You could read aloud the ingredients of Twinkies, every word on a box of Cheerios, the names of all animals starting with Phylum, grocery shopping lists of overbearing mothers-in-law. Wouldn't matter. Your disembodied voice and accent appear to converge in one of my happy places. So, thank you and larynx.
At least I'll have something to do if I run out of Tolkien ideas 😅
Melkor(a Vala) are Manwe`s brother. He is the lord of chaos, corruption, destruction and torture. He captured many and manipulated them. And got loyal servants. One of them is the Balrogs(maia) that he corrupted, and they multiplied into black fire shadows with horns. Weapon: Flaming whip. Also the orcs (were some of his prisoners) who were tortured and manipulated, as they were the first humans or elves. And they got ugly faces and deformed bodies. And had thoughts in eternal darkness. The Elves named him Morgoth. And he became known as the first dark lord. In secretly, he acquired a chief's lieutenant. He was a Maia who was a shapeshifter and went into service under the blacksmith Alue. His name is Mairon. And became known as Sauron in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. After Morgoth was arrested by the other Valans, chained together and thrown into a black hole. Took his apprentice over. And he became known as the second dark lord.Without anyone else showing it, he forged a ring for himself all by himself. And put it on his finger. On the inside of the ring was a text in an elven language called black speech. It said: a ring will find them and bind them in total darkness. The ring had black magic in it and some of his own powers as well. And then he could control the nine power rings given to men. And so they became nine Nazguls. (Ringwraiths). With the Witch King as leader.
Who is this comment for?
I have other theories about the others of the white council who fight him, especially how she walked barefoot everywhere she went even through the murkwoods and dol guldur.
El mito de Morgoth lo encuentro similar al de Satanas en el antiguo testamento, los dos ponen en tela de juicio la autoridad de los creadores del universo, Iluvatar-Jehova. El mayor logro de Melkor-Lucifer fue la introduccion de la imperfeccion en el mundo... Felicidades por tus videos, haces buenos analisis de la obra de Don Tolkien.
I'm just gonna say it, Morgoth was kick ass...
Morgoth is like any other bully in the world. He was "kick ass" until he got his ass kicked.🤪
I agree, he's definitely a favourite character of mine!
True, but can you imagine the story without having a bully to defeat? We need the Morgoth's and Sauron's :D .
@@TheRedBook
And the Witch King, etc.😁
@@Enerdhil And even Grima Wormtongue!
Didn't even know morgoth had a ring 2🤔
A hypothetical scenario, if sauron had found his (morgoths) would he have been interested in it
nice
"If they made a valley he would try to fill it, if they raised a mountain he would try to topple it." I'm sorry but that made me laugh. It comes off so petty, but on a cosmic scale.
haha exactly. Childish behaviour but from someone capable of changing landscapes 😁
Interesting. I only found out about Morgoth's ring fairly recently (a year or so ago, I think). I tried reading it but couldn't get into it, or haven't yet. This idea of earth being Morgoth's ring strikes me as almost exactly the Roman Catholic concept of original sin. I can grasp it as such - Tolkien's interpretation of that doctrine - but it bores me. I do appreciate the video, though. It was interesting to explore to that extent. I guess I'm saying I'm glad it's mythology and not reality. 🙂
What’s the difference between the void & the timeless halls?
The Void "exists" outside of time and space. It is pure emptiness and Ea (The Universe) was creation placed amidst it. The Timeless Halls are some intangible "place" separate from the Void. Creation was placed within the empty void but was set apart from it - the Timeless Halls still being a step further. If that makes sense :D
Seems like Morgoth was very clever. Eru Iluvatar now has only one way to save Arda from Morgoths Influence. Become Men and cast all out, renew it.
We don't know. The Rings of Power writers haven't told us yet
🔥👁🔥