Sauron | A Response To Screenrant | Part 1
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- čas přidán 14. 06. 2024
- This 3 part series was started before I understood what Screenrant was; a clickbait site for generating as much traffic as possible. Some people have told me they enjoy this series so I haven't removed it but I just want to confirm that I would not have made this had I known about Screenrant beforehand. Comments are disabled as people like reminding me about what Screenrant is even though these videos are now years old and I don't want to engage with this series of videos any longer.
Is Sauron a confusing character? To some he apparently is. This is the first part of my response to a Screenrant article. I use Tolkien's works to explain the character of Sauron and explain away misconceptions and misunderstandings about the Dark Lord of The Lord of the Rings.
Original article - screenrant.com/lord-rings-sau...
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
0:54 - Screenrant and the article
2:36 - Number 15 (Sauron "Becoming" The Ring)
8:12 - Number 14 (So Few Ringwraiths)
12:34 - Number 13 (Disappearing Ringwraiths)
15:42 - Number 12 (A Ring Forged To Make Other People Invisible)
19:23 - Number 11 (Gandalf & Co Let Him Recover And Build An Army)
25:07 - Outro
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Second Age - By Karen Wynn Fonstad
The Blue Wizards Journeying East - By Ted Nasmith
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#tolkien #sauron #screenrant #lore #legendarium - Zábava
Sauron isn't confusing, he's layered, and his history is wonderfully detailed. And thank you Professor for creating him for the world.
Sauron seems like a real jerk
Something Rose seems to not understand about Tolkein's works is that Power is finite in his universe. Every powerful object or person must have a source for that power which in turn drains that original source to whatever degree is relevant to the power created. We see this in Morgoth, where I remember it being explained in the Silmarillion (where exactly I don't remember) that he became weaker over time because he kept pouring himself into the corruption of life into forms that would serve him. His power, like all power in Arda, was finite and consumable, as well as able to be weakened over time.
Additionally, there are the Swan Ships of Alqualonde. When Faenor demands the ships of the Teleri, they respond that they cannot give him the ships because they are so specially crafted and unique that they cannot be reduplicated, no matter what skill was involved. This was a common theme in Tolkien's works, craftsmanship was special and exceptional work can only occur once before needing to take on a different form.
So, no, Sauron could not recreate the Rings of Power and just make more of them at will. That runs contrary to the very definition of power in Arda. Any attempt to duplicate those Rings of Power and their effects would only create inferior items of lesser and lesser power.
Anyways, great video Red Book, thanks for making it!
Very good points and they are some of the most misunderstood aspects of Tolkien's entire works. People think "This character is 'powerful' so why don't they just use their power?" It's like asking why Gandalf doesn't just fire lightning bolts from his staff. It's not how any of it works. The will can diminish, there are consequences of actions. Creativity can result in one time wonders that can never be repeated. All this detail that can't be shown in movies, you have to read Tolkien to get all this...
I blame modern comics for this. In their universes heroes seem to have infinite power
She should stick to Harry Potter.
Excellent rebuttal of some really sloppy, poorly researched thinking. While your deep understanding of the legendarium should really be put to better purpose, I'm glad you took the time to do this.
Thanks Andrew. I won't be posting parts 2 and 3 right away. My next video will be back to something that is more like my usual content.
this is the "slow evil" (as opposed to the forceful, explosive and dominating kind - fast evil) > the one that pretends to be your ally , whilst slowly corrupting and perverting everything that is true and beautiful you ... until all you are left with is an empty husk of a story .. skulking in the shadows and the like
you might say that this is done for corporate IP benefits > turn it into an empty shell and make it inifnitely adaptable whilst lowering the expected standard of the work , all whilst relying on the popularity and nostalgia of old.. stealing the name and clothes , whilst replacing the body with something entirely different
you might say that
but i think there is greater interest in 'destroying' what represents an alternative
a testament against the darkness
those who are dark of heart would work tirelessly to destroy the foundations of what is beauty and truth..
and have it seem that there is no light,
only dakrness
they would cover the sky with a dark cloud , and you would forget the light of the sun and moon that once shone so brightly..
to tell the lie , so strongly , so ubiquitously .. that you should believe that there is only the darkness , and your hearts pursuit of light - if it be there at all - is mere folly and illusion..
that their is no beauty
no truth
no goodness
a fools hope,
and nothing more
*a battle of influences:
give in to the darkness.
.. is the ultimate purpose
Welcome to journalism of today... doesn't help most "journalists" who publish in various now consolidated into fewer media giants are heirs to fortunes... it's nepotism to the extreme.
The bumbling pampered trust fund babies have to poop out an article. And they do with gusto. And with pure lazy stupidity.
And we get lovely turd nuggets like this to read.
And people wonder why so many of us laugh at the few remaining propaganda networks...
I don't think they comprehend the lunacy they've constructed.... I don't think they realize... but they're not even trying anymore.
Here here!
About number 15, sauron also believed very confidently that no onw would destroy the ring willingly, I don't think he saw it as a risk because he would live on through the ring that no one was strong enough to resist it's lure. And the best thing is that he was right, no one was able to willingly destroy the ring
It wasn’t actually as much becuase of his confidence in the lure of the ring. It was more that Sauron couldn’t imagine anyone getting rid of such a powerfull artifact as he most certainly would not do so if he was Elrond or Gandalf or someone of the free peoples. Him being power hungry made him assume everyone would be the same (at least to a certain extent I guess) thus it made him blind to the possibility of someone destroying the ring.
It is mentioned in the Fellowship of the Ring by Gandalf.
@@DanierCZ I am pretty sure that no one could have resisted the Ring , not because of It's power but because of It's influence , Galadriel and Gandalf were powerful but much below Sauron which was stated by Tolkien himself , only someone who is above or equal to Sauron could have resisted the Ring's influence but still be able to keep it for It's power , there was nobody on Middle-Earth who could be able to do that so imo it is an influence thing first and not being power hungry
@@davidkosiba624 Well no one could have resisted the ring, which means everyone would fall to its corruption at some point. If the wearer was powerful enough I believe he/she could defeat Sauron with it before that happened.. or even perhaps already corrupted. I can’t imagine that Galadriel or even Gandalf could destroy Sauron for good, but I would imagine that diminishing his power and effectively dethroning him might be within the realm of possibilities.
Sauron's belief that no one would destroy his ring was based on fact. There was a period of 2,000 years when the ring could've been destroyed, and it wasn't. You can argue the ring was lost but little or no effort was made to find it in that time. The fact that his enemies would try to do it when it was almost impossible, that they 'd risk doing it by stealth, instead of forcing the way to Mt. Doom with an army, can't blame him for not really considering this. For a long time, he thought the ring had been destroyed.
The original article doesn't deserve such a detailed response. All 15 points could be disposed of in ten minutes. You have put 1000x much effort into this as the clickbait author did.
I know :/ but if you're going to do it, then might as well do it right!
That's 1000x too hyperbolic. It's a sign of our times - exactly of the kind the video is responding to - that people don't want to the extended *thoughtful and accurate* version. They want the clickbait. A swift clickbaity superficial response to a clickbait article isn't what is called for. There is actually an audience for these kinds of extended breakdowns. It might be small, but who cares about that? Celebrate the effort: don't denigrate it.
@@bretthall9080 - I can't speak for Max, but I did read it as a nice comment about my video and a negative comment about the article. Unless I am reading that in the wrong way :D
I agree, I actually did a big response to this, thinking the author actually did think that the rings of power were stupid. Who ever came up with these arguments clearly does not understand lord of the rings at all.
"Raises, not begs." Haha! I winced when you read that part of Rose's article aloud, and laughed when you said precisely what I was thinking.
I couldn't resist it. I don't usually call out simple mistakes cause it seems petty but the use of begs really bothers me for some reason.
@@TheRedBook - There's no need to be sorry for calling out abuse of the language. Words mean things, and people who don't use them properly entropize the language. The increasingly common misuse of "begs the question" when those who abuse it mean "raises the question" drives me up the wall. 'Twas a gladful thing to see you call out the error.
@@Vito_Tuxedo I get what you mean, but keep in mind language is a living concept and will always change.
@@helenwhs I'm aware of that fact, although I'm not sure that the "living concept" concept provides an excuse for the careless thinking that underlies sloppy articulation. However, in this particular case, if Rose were concerned about careless thinking, she wouldn't have posted that piece in the first place. Hence, I suspect that she is not inclined to be receptive to advice on the subject of semantic imprecision.
He was melkors second in command. When melkor was banished to the void Sauron took his place. Not complicated at all
Almost like when the king dies the first in line becomes the new king.
What does that have to do with anything and who ever said that fact was complicated?
@@someguyfromfinlandtj125 to be honest I doubt that’s how Melkor views Sauron. To him Sauron was a servant, a powerful and valued servant but nothing more.
@@Prophetofthe8thLegion Just like some kings view their sons as servants.
Morgoth is immortal and assumed to rule for eternity, he was not gonna give the throne to Sauron by any means. That does not change the fact that Sauron would be the one to asume to role of Morgoth if for example he was thrown into the void for ever. So Sauron was the next in line if Morgoth’s physical form was destroyed for good or was ousted from arda for good.
The whole article seems to just be a collection of "there is no reason why X" assumptions.
If she did read the book then she is 100% intentionally trying to make Sauron confusing, either because of some personal agenda against LotR/Tolkien or because she wants clicks for her article.
probably the second option. Those articles target the braindead tmz viewertype
It is called Heresy
Yeah I think she was being intentionally obtuse and ignorant for the sake of creating an attention grabbing article. They do say all press is good press, even bad press lol. The purpose was to draw attention, even if it was negative attention intended to dispute the article! But I can’t say that that was her intention for sure, just one possible idea.
My impresson of the Screenrant author: I'd also like to know why Sauron didn't just Google "Baggins" to find Biblo, as there is clearly only one Bilbo Baggins in all of Middle-earth, so that would have been a super easy what to find him and the ring. So there's at least 16 reasons why Sauron is just an old dude who probably can't even use Google or Apple maps well and that's why he's dead.
I wasn't aware of the article (no big loss), but I think you could have responded to it in a much shorter way:
"Is Sauron a confusing character? No. Is Rose a very confused and frankly ignorant writer on this matter? Yes."
This said, I welcome the in-depth, well considered point-by-point rebuttal. My only fear/concern is that such a lengthy response (in 3 parts, no less!) will drive away those that are taken in by a 2,500 words, poorly written article by someone who - as likely most of her readers - hasn't even bothered to read the Lord of the Rings with any care if at all.
Yeah, I've said in the last part that maybe putting that much effort on was a mistake. I'm happy if people watching the video found it entertaining. I won't be bothering with that site again though.
For Goodness sake, Sauron couldn't find the ring and he created it. Great work, thorough, insightful, and logical. Well Done.
One thing not noted in this commentary is The One Ring MAIN PURPOSE was not domination of the other (Men and Dwarves) Rings but preservation:
the rings of Men allowed them to live longer and last after their death. The same can be presumed for the Dwarfs.
Celebrimbor forge the Elvish Rings not to preserve from aging and death (no need for it) but to preserve the things elvish loved from decaying and being corrupted by mortality.
What Sauron saw with his eyes was Melkor to slowly wither away, losing power as he built greater armies and dragons.
In some way he understood the reason was Middle Earth was for mortals alone and mortality would sip in everything there.
So he sought the elves and forged the rings and someone would suggest he drained some power from them to create his One Ring later as he was able to locate the Three Rings when they were weared and he weared the One Ring, but he had no direct involvement in creating the Three.
One testimony of this is when he goes to Numenor (and leave the One Ring in Mordor, probably entrusted in the Ringwraiths).
His beautiful corporeal form is destroyed but he can return Mordor anyway and return in a material form but lose the ability to shapeshift he had before and he take back the One Ring. If he had the One Ring in Numenor, it would be lost forever or destroyed there. He needed the One Ring in the Middle Earth, to be anchored there forever.
In fact we can think Sauron was destroyed in Numenor and the One Ring allowed him to return like a glorified/superpowered Nazgul.
The Sauron they fight in LoTR is a lich looking for his phylactery. It is an undead Maiar.
The Wizards must not match power with power because they can not destroy him with power if the One Ring exist.
They can just crush his corporeal form, if they are lucky, but his spirit would last and rebuild a new body later.
Sauron had the ring in Numenor! Per the professor's letters
For the sake of my Silmarils, what an article that was, Pointing out extremely lazy questions that, with a relatively quick survey, could have been answered. Nevertheless, excellent video, very well edited.
Two more parts, bet you can't wait for those... :D
May we imitate Wormtongue (except with better accuracy) and drop one of your Palantírs on the author's head?
“The wise speak only of what they know, Rose Graceling-Moore."
As soon as I've heard "screenrant" I knew it would be total reconstruction
Thanks for pointing out that "begs the question" is used improperly. It astounds me, how so many writers will parrot this, trying to sound intelligent. It's like nails on a chalkboard every time I hear it.
Another excellent video as always - an intelligent perfectionist’s rebuttal to a “good enough’s” article attempting to trivialize and dismiss works we love
Best part of the week
Excellent video!
I have not yet read the article, but seeing the questions you quoted in the video, they author of that article clearly had a poor grasp of the narrative, with huge misconceptions.
As you said, Sauron had to invest a lot of himself, his power, his spirit, his essence (or however you prefer to put it) into the Ring, or it would not be potent enough to be the master ring he wanted it to be. It came with a small risk of backfiring if someone else mastered the Ring or it was destroyed, but if the Ring had not existed, he could have been slain.
Nor were the Rings of Power a cheap investment of power, as the article implied. Objects of great power in Tolkien’s works can only be made so many times by their makers. Two Trees in Valinor, three Silmarils etc.
Nor was Sauron particularly weak without the Ring, at least not towards the end of the Third Age, and at least not to anyone below a Vala. He just wasn’t as strong in certain ways as he would have been had he been reunited with the Ring.
Ridiculous criticism of the story, but you definitely answered their ”points” well. The author of that article was clueless.
Amazing video and very informative, thank you, Steven!
One thing I'd like to say about the original article: the author does seem to have at least researched the Legendarium outside the movies, but the way she draws on this lore is very selective, even arbitrary. I mean, referencing the Unfinished Tales stuff about the palantiri and their qualities, and then completely overlooking the fact that the explanation of why the Orthanc stone connected directly to Barad-Dur is given in The Lord of the Rings. Reminds of Peter Jackson: whenever he stayed faithful to the source material, he achieved a pretty good adaptation. Whenever he decided he knew better than Tolkien and invented stuff when all the explanations were in the book, he failed.
This is an excellent video to clear up misconceptions. Can't wait for the next part!
Thanks Anna, and that is what confused me as well. I don't know why the author references the books sometimes, then ignores it other times. Disingenuous researching perhaps? An excuse to make the article?
Which makes it all the more confusing for movie-only fans. I wish people would stop referring to The Lord of the Rings as franchise.
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 I hate that too.. videos like this one and only in very specific cases will I be mentioning movies. I'm here to be a Tolkien channel and I think they get mentioned way too often even on other channels.
@@TheRedBook - The only "movie" I would like to see is really a motion illustrated audiobook of the Silmarillion and related material - similar to the two Willow Production short films in concept.
As for what Peter Jackson did, those movies should be called "Fellowship of the Ringish", "The Two Towersish", and "Return of the Kingish" to make clear how much egregious material and unwarranted changes from the source material were made.
N.b. I was inspired to think of the names from the "Cinderellish" play in Fruits Basket.
I guess Rose never heard the phrase "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt".
The one ring was Sourons insurance policy from being truly destroyed
Irrespective of the article, this video is a neat resource to clarify common misconceptions. Great job, and witnessing your epic beard in a livestream recently I thought you may be a Beorning 😁
Regarding Sauron investing so much of his essence into the Ring, people also seem to often overlook the alternative: what if Sauron would not have created it? He may have drowned definitely with Númenor or be slain in battle. I admit though that it took me personally a lot of rereading to understand why Sauron's "sacrifice" was reasonable: he could have been destroyed either way, the ring could not really undermine his chances of survival in most scenarios (a successful theft of the Ring without a battle involving Saurom being the only exception I can think of).
Since other Maiar like the Balrogs and Saruman apparently do not recover their physical bodies, I think it's fair to say that the Ring and its irresistibility were the key factor in allowing Sauron a comeback.
I assume that slain Maiar can recover their bodies in time if they return to Valinor and heal, like the Elves do. Ostracised maiar however are banned from Aman, which I think is why they cannot reembody (at least until Dagor Dagorath 😉).
By the way, it was really interesting how you hinted at the idea that Sauron took advantage of Celebrimbor and his smiths, letting them create their masterpieces - which probably cannot be replicated considering the theme of irreplacability you find with e.g. the Silmarils and Telperion & Laurelin - and thereby preserving some of his once-in-a-lifetime creative potential. Sauron later lost the option to fool any outstanding creator again. (And perhaps Sauron lost even some of his own creative powers with the downfall of Númenor).
Edit 4 or so: A bonus question 😉 Do you think the Ring or any ring of power except for the Three would render an elv who has not seen the light of the two trees "invisible"?
Hello again.
I suppose most people say it was a mistake because he lost in the end, but his logic seems to be sound for the most part. Things work against him, and in hindsight we can say "oh, well that was stupid". His plan to conquer Elves was a good one, if they hadn't made the Three...
Tolkien does say that with each death of Sauron, a part of his greater will is lost to him, it would take longer to recover and take shape again, even with the One Ring in existence. That creative potential you mention would decrease. We wouldn't think of the will being infinite, and I find that idea to be very interesting. A part of him being lost each time.
Interesting question about the Elves and invisibility. I think there are honestly good arguments from both sides. I think it all depends on if you think Elves could fade and become wraiths. It's entirely possible that creatures like the wights could have been spirits who had origins with Elves and not Men. Yet, from the other side of the argument, Elves are bound to the world in a way Men aren't. They are of the world fully, and their lives can't be stretched beyond a regular lifespan, since they are immortal. What do you think yourself about the possibility of invisible Elves?
@@TheRedBook Always nice to read from you 😄 It's a surprisingly hard question.
I can't recall the source, but somewhere in the writings it is said that Elves who would remain in Middle-Earth too long after Arda was marred will fade to bodiless spirits and may refuse the summoning to Mandos. So this seems to indicate that malicious magic working in the physical world can eat away an Elv's body.
I can see therefore that the Ring may cause fading during prolonged use even in most Elves. But invisibility, too? That may be a different thing.
The Ring does apparently not render Ainur invisible, and it is usually surmised this is because their being is already mostly present in the unseen rather than the seen. Does that also apply to Elves who dwelled in Valinor during its bliss? I have no clue.
Perhaps the Ring's effect on visibility works as a gradient... the stronger the ring bearer is connected to the unseen, the less he seems to vanish in other's eyes.
I think for some of this questions it can be hard to come up with a satisfying answer since Tolkien retroactively changed the nature of the ring and how it works after The Hobbit established the ring as a mean to turn invisible.
However and as you mentioned in the video, the invisibility effect can easily be an unplanned effect. Assuming that the Seven & Nine work the same as the One in this regard, we have to ask whether Sauron expected that a (mighty?) Elv wearing a ring of power would turn invisible. If the answer is no, then that would mean that something about (some) elves in their relationship to the unseen world prevents the ring's effect.
If the answer howeverv is yes, then Sauron would have either imagined that the Elves he wanted to dominate would only carry their rings for most of the time or that they would act as invisible beings. Because this feels a bit less plausible to me than the other scenario, I think rings of power should not turn (some selected?) Elves invisible unless they do, too, like man, and that this effect was a construction error on Sauron's behalf. You could also argue that the One may work differently in that regard than the other rings.
All in all, my current thesis is that the rings were not created with the intention of turning their designated bearers invisible. Instead, a deliberate effect of the rings would be to strengthen the bearer's connection to the unseen and his potentcy to influence the unseen proper and the seen through the unseen. Humans including hobbits wearing a ring of power are dragged into the unseen because the forces of the ring shifting the bearer's essence towards the unseen overpowers any counterweight hobbits and men can throw in. Metaphorically speaking, if using the ring is like entering a wind machine, then a heavyweight (Ainur, possibly elf) would not be moved by the wind (and he can learn to control the machine), while a flyweight would be blown off above the clouds...
@@TheRedBook - Things worked against Sauron mainly due to the intervention of Eru - believing that Eru would not get involved in Middle Earth was his major mistake.
As for invisible elves, do not the elves staying in Middle Earth beyond the 4th Age fade into the unseen realm as "good wraiths", becoming the creatures described in ancient folklore?
I love your posts, including this one - the thoughtful and detailed approach to the legendarium. I would plead, however, that you reduce the volume on the music. It enhances your words, but for people like me who have audial issues, it's very hard to follow what you're saying over the sound of the music.
Hi Anna, this is quite an old video and audio quality has improved on more recent videos. It should be even better in future videos as I have upgraded my mic. Music will still be there but the voice should be much louder.
That's quite a mild article in comparison to big tiddy goth Shelob we got in that Shadow of Mordor videogame, which in turn isn't half as jarring as maori hobbits and porn with young Galadriel, promised by that new Amazon LOTR series. Almost feels like there's a specific attack on the franchise in order to smear it and wipe it from human memory.
To me, the premises of Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War alone make it abundantly clear that they aren't trying to be anything other than fun "what if" scenarios. Ghost Celebrimbor? Another Ring of Power? A society of cockney orcs with a wide assortment of humorous personalities and gimmicks? These things are literally fan fiction and not meant to be taken as serious commentary on Tolkien's work. They exist for fun, and as they are also decent enough games they may actually help the franchise by generating interest among people who wouldn't otherwise be exposed to it. It's only a problem if someone's journey into exploring Tolkien's work begins and ends with material like that, which from my own experience is not likely to be true. If you come into contact with something that really piques your interest you feel inclined to seek out more of it, and that will inevitably lead you back to the source.
And I know you are somewhat joking with the "big tiddy goth Shelob" remark, but as far as creative freedoms in those games go that one is pretty tame, as Shelob is the spawn of Ungoliant after all, a powerful spirit that presumably chose to take the form of a spider (or at least what would be known as a spider), and so the writers in turn took the liberty of giving Shelob the same shape-shifting ability, if to a less extent as she doesn't turn into anything else. She's also pretty petite and almost ghoulishly pale, so if the developer's goal was just the addition of a character with sex appeal they could have gone much further.
Your last sentence is spot on.
true
Wait... Isn't Shelon a spider...?
In the republic, plato talks about a story where a man found a gold ring in the mountains that turned him invisible.
Indeed! The Ring of Gyges.
@@TheRedBook no doubt Tolkien was familiar… it’s just so strange it probably stuck in his mind and he used the idea in the hobbit.
There is, too my mind, little that is confusing about the character. He's the embodiment of the will to power, the desire for order and control of others. Nothing he does is ever inconsistent with that purpose. His actions in the S.A. allowed him to exert power over Numenor, to control, potentially, this new power in the world, the rings and those that bore them, as examples. Thousands of years later, he's still at it in the TA, seeking to control the minds and actions of Galadriel, Denethor and many others. The forging of the one ring is consistent also with his former master Melkor' s jealousy of the art of creation and the desire to control it, whether by twisting and perverting it, as Melkor did or, by domination and subordination, as favoured by Sauron. I could easily go on here but, I find it unnecessary, as the character of S is actually a fairly two-dimensional character, without a lot of nuance, because I think that omnipresent threat and terror of dark, malicious unseen power is much of what gives the book its tension and it would be worse if all was explained in minutia in even more exposition dumps than the work already possesses.
Hi :-) I don't understand why Sauron's consistency seems to make him a two-dimensional character to you. Many real persons hardly change in their basic motives... nor do characters like Gandalf or Aragorn. Sauron is not complex though he appears to me like a plausible figure without large knowledge gaps in what he's about, thus three-dimensional
@@Crafty_Spirit there are not the internal tensions in S that make for a three dimensional character portrayal. He never really wavers in focus, attention and rationale. The closest you get to internal tension are some of the statements from others about fears or uncertainties he might have or when he was defeated, captured and taken to Numenor but, as we know, he was clearly intending that, once he realized the battle was lost. He does, typical of many characters in the legendarium, have a long view to things, though he actualizes his long view better than others, like Gandalf, that more often state it and take it more passively as a universal truth rather than something to be forced into existence. These things make for a compelling malevolent presence in the story, which is why I think Tolkien wrote him this way.
@@EffequalsMA Interesting. But what if I tell you that some of my friends have internal struggles while others just happily live their lifes and take it as it comes? Does that mean that the latter are more shallow? 😅
Conflicted characters are often more interesting to us readers, but why should that make them more profound? You could just as well argue that Sauron never giving up despite increasingly strong setbacks and backlashes indicates not a clueless, compulsively acting psychopath without any personality, but a being of iron will who concluded that nothing short of becoming a god-king is worth living. And who says he didn't waver and doubt himself after every defeat? We would not know, and evil habits are hardly shrugged off when you are as lonely and deaf to other voices as Sauron was.
Or were you referring to how Sauron comes across in LotR rather than "the real Sauron"?
Also, Sauron did change his rationale at least twice - he left the Valar for Melkor, and repositioned himself after his master's defeats. That is already more character development I would ascribe to e.g. Bilbo.
@@Crafty_Spirit im not talking aboit your friends or real life at all. A character in fiction, written with compelling internal challenges and struggles, is more interesting, generally. Across fiction, this easily demonstrated. Sauron, in this legendarium, actually doesn't need that and Tolkien wrote him this way on purpose. He didn't want an adversary wavering in doubt too much, he had Saruman for that. He wanted a malevolent omnipresence of "undefeatable" evil. That raises tension and the stakes for everything the other characters do.
@@EffequalsMA Thanks 😄
Re: the 'invisibility cloak' trope...i have always seen it as more of a teleportation into a parallel dimension/plane of existence. I know it's not a perfect viewpoint, but i think it adequately explains the sudden notice by the wraiths, as well as the apparent disappearance of the wearer.
Having worked for a (much smaller) site similar to this, I can tell you that writers can feel pressure (even if it is just from themselves) to produce as much content as possible for as many views as possible, and not really care about accuracy so much. Articles that deal with fantasy fiction also aren't always taken as seriously even by the authors themselves compared to more heavy topics, so standards get lowered.
In short, this is probably just a clickbait article, because the writer will want views and just feels a need to publish something, anything for that month/ week, not to mention she probably gets paid by the article and has bills to pay. It's less to do with being uninformed and more to do with being indifferent, because being passionate and knowledgable about every single thing that you right gets hard after a while.
Article should have been called "15 things that make no sense to me because I never read the books and don't have an imagination"
For point (1), you forgot to say that the ring tied Sauron to Middle Earth, which meant that if he was defeated by any encroaching Valar/Maiar (certainly not weak elves or men!) and his ring was stored elsewhere for safety, he would not be blown to the halls of Mandos for judgment like Saruman's spirit later was. This is how he survived Eru Illuvatar's apocalyptic destruction of Numenor.
Well, not really forgotten. If I made every point against every point she made, the video would be 3 hours long :D
I would add under the first point (15) that Sauron has already used the ring to cheat destruction twice by the third age: once with the downfall of Numenor (notably a cataclysm brought about by the powers of the Valar), and then again when defeated by the last Alliance of Men and Elves. I’ve always thought before those two events if the ring had somehow been destroyed (theoretically) it might not have totally diminished him, just have left him much less powerful. After Numenor’s destruction though it was only his power left in the ring that allowed him to take shape again in Middle earth.
This is great content and as you say, it's all based on the source, JRRT, not adaptations. I especially liked your explanation about invisibility. Good job.
Screenrant is pretty spotty in quality.
I also believed it was two fold, that forging the ring he was able actualize and manifest power greater than he was able to without. As he is indeed an ainur clad in form. That in doing so, much of ainur power is lost. That the ring was in essence summoning/manifesting forth a great if not entire portion of that power in the world;Arda.
And that through the ring, master of all others he could control great swaths of the powers of the world. Sauron is effectively nothing without his armies. In might and magics yes, indeed he was potent. But it was not alone enough, and through the ring it bound him to world, always leaving him a way back. I always took it as him learning a lesson from the failures of Morgoth, and not claiming a body through the permission of Manwë. Though perhaps this is just a extrapolation and conjecture.
Nice work dude thanks
Excellent analysis.
Thanks, Andy!
"Places like screen rant can't be trusted on adaption's of tolkien's work" >>>> "Place like all media can't be trusted on anything" Fixed your statement.
Imagine asking "why did Sauron make the One Ring if it's so risky?" and then asking "why didn't Sauron make more rings?" in the next "Point".
The article seems to be very much trope filled thinking, treating a story, whether real or fictional as one would a video game level where any "feat" is seen as a part of the arsenal. Or a DnD campaign where we jump to equate the ring shifting a wearer into the unseen world to a cloak of invisibility.
Or to quote Nietzsche "so absorbed in chasing wittiness, they lose their wits"
This has been happening for decades, it's been increasing lately, I cynically have concluded in my opinion that it is largely politically based. There have been attacks on Tolkien in regards to race and gender. Since those topics have been politicized, and attract a lot of attention, more and more will be created. I'm not saying this article is that, but the problem is an article by an uniformed person attacking or critiquing anything will unfortunately attract more attention than an informed person defending or refuting a subject. I will not read the article, and I'm unable to retain any further optimism for future Tolkien adaptations. Once again great video, thank you and have a great day everyone.
Hopefully, the Tolkien Estate has been vetoing any leftist ideology Amazon has tried to sneak into the series. You can be sure the mainstream media will do their part to make any changes Amazon Prime makes to the canon justifiable. This article is one little leak in the dam. If Amazon has made unforgivable changes to the canon, you can bet all the feckless media will join in unison to champion those changes all the way up to and beyond the series premiere. We are at the mercy of the Tolkien Estate's watchfulness.
It was one reason I made it because that article will get far more views than my video. So, I want to hope that some people will discover this and realise how bad those articles are.
@Eneedhil Lok, you think a giant tech company run by a Union busting billionaire is "leftist." Thats hilarious .
@@waltonsmith7210
Why is that funny. There are too many billionaire Marxists. George Soros being the worst. He is why we have no-cash bails and crime destroying many big cities. They all support the Marxist organization Black Lives Matter, their founders being avowed trained Marxist.
@@Enerdhil Indeed, that’s my fear and I’m not very optimistic. All we can hope for is for Tolkien Estate to not let Amazon fuck with Tolkien’s source material.
This article is for the “10 things you didn’t know about…” crowd. It’s a cliché, clickbait way to get views that, unfortunately, appears to be here to stay. Such lazy writing is annoying and for the author to conflate the books with the movies?!? No bueno! 😡 They just want to appear as some Tolkien Edge Lord to people lacking any real knowledge of LotR. Thank you for the video!
All true. Some moron who pretends to be knowledgeable will read the article without any critical thought, then repeat it their moron friends during some faux intellectual conversation in an overpriced coffee shop.
Even just watching the films, these questions make no sense.
As I recall, the Ring also has saved Sauron a couple times, by letting him reform his body. Without it, the Valar certainly wouldn't permit him to reform himself, right?
Was that a deliberate effect of the Ring, or just a useful perk on his part?
We don't know what would have happened had Sauron been forced from his physical form without the One Ring present. He would have been shapeless, eager to return to the physical form he had relied on for many years - this was a consequence of becoming Incarnate. You are right though, the ring certainly "saved" him by allowing him to return to the physical world far quicker than any possibility without it. Even when he didn't have it with him, it was still his until it was claimed outright or destroyed, he was bound to it too. His reshaping after Numenor was certainly possible due to carrying the ring with him, and his reshaping after the Second Age was possible since it still existed. Once it was gone, that was it, he didn't have the inherent will to rejoin the physical world in that kind of way.
15. Sauron had to pour his power into the ring for it to have the fundamental power that it had. It was a risky move, but he knew the consequences.
14. The power needed to create the rings is not limitless. This seems obvious from the power of himself that Sauron poured into the One.
13. Their awareness of the real world is limited.
14. The invisibility of the One Ring is incidental. Its real purpose is to transport the wearer to the dark realm in which the Ringwraiths dwell.
13. Gandalf and Co. are deceived fatally by Saruman, who keeps them from discovering the true identity of the Necromancer.
A marvellous break down and response. Those articles, however, are sadly just clickbait. A sign of our times: dishonestly represent something that is popular, claim you've found flaws or are more clever and perceptive than the creator and reveal yourself to be the biggest intellect in the room. Oh, and get clicks. Well done for an excellent video - ignore the person who says you put too much effort in. That too is a sign of our times. That is precisely *why* clickbait exists.
Another observation: Tolkien took at least 12 years to write LOTR. Of course the better part of his 81 years was devoted to that and associated projects. Not only was he spending many waking moments considering all this he was in constants chats about it with his peers having all these conversations and thinking about all this. For someone to think they have found a flaw he did not already consider and respond to is remarkable. To publish an article of deep ignorance, well…why? Why risk your own reputation as a writer by revealing such a lack of capacity to research? Again: sign of the times. Tolkien’s life work vs my watching the films and reading the books a couple of times…seems a fair match.
Thanks, and yeah I didn't want people to think I was just after clicks. If I was, then I'd do your standard what happened and who is this character videos...
I do think it's a sign of the times, articles like this - easy to digest and unsourced - will get many many views. It's lazy. But I like talking about Tolkien's work so it was still fun to respond and put a bit of effort into it.
new subscriber here...love your content! it's like the author of that 15 point article was being intentionally obtuse.
brilliant counterpoints!
This is actually why the Ring is such a unique artifact, especially for Sauron, it is literally a preserver of Power, the Power of the Ring would never wane, it was everlasting, so It’s destruction was essential.
Sauron was in tune with the Ring and as long as it existed, Sauron would have power.
I've been looking forward to this... >:)
Part two coming...when I can be bothered making it :D , hopefully soon!
Quality video mate!
Cheers!
best rtfm advice in the history of rtfm advice xD
That first question was something I asked when I was like 6 years old lmao by 15 when having read the books I completely understood.
Very good video! Sauron is such a misunderstood character, but that's no fault of his. Thanks for setting the record straight here! (Also, didn't the Witch King form Angmar in the second age-?)
Thanks! And no it was the third age, about the year 1300 :)
I've read her article, thanks to the link. Yeah, it's as you say: she seems to be mixing liberally her impression of the book with the film series. Most of her comments can be easily addressed, but I'd give her the benefit of the doubt as her issues are probably issues many people who haven't read the books closely would have. Anyway, I'm really looking forward to these videos! Excellent stuff.
Oh yeah, I never wanted it to seem like a personal attack. I've no idea about her experiences with the books. I was pretty much guessing based on that mixing of sources.
@@TheRedBook I got that! You mentioned it in your intro. Loving these well informed deep dives, keep them coming :-)
Sauron is one of the coolest characters in the entire Legendarium. Morgoth was a fool, but Sauron was smart..to some limit of course. His only weakness and eventually his doom was his own pride.
Morgoth and Sauron were driven mad. Morgoth became nilistically demented and Sauron became violently paranoid. It's hard to want 100% rational thoughts from someone who has reached these stages.
@@dllps yes Indeed, that's what power does, along with pride, it ruins the soul.
Fantastic video! I'll be following your channel closely.
Thanks! Appreciate the support :)
This is my meditation background noise.
Ouch, that first long quote kinda hurt...
So few ringwraiths? Disappearing ringwraiths? One! Nine for mortal men doomed to die. Two you’ve never Ed heard of wraiths disappearing?
The only thing worth noting on screen rant are the pitch meeting's.
I do not think the Nazgul were occupied looking for the One Ring during almost all of the Third Age. It seems clear to me that the function of the Nazgul during the first 1000 years after they reappeared was to strike at the Dunedain where possible and to acquire havens where military forces could be built up.Angmar is founded around 1300 so there are problem some there, lead by their chief, the Witch King. Sauron was still very weak all during this time as he had been slain and his Ring taken from him. First of these was Angmar where forces were built up that eventually would destroy the North Kingdom in 1974. Most of these forces were then destroyed by the Gondorian relief force. The Nazgul left the North and entered Mordor six years later. They spent 20 years building up forces and then assaulted and took Mina Ithil. After this Gandalf intervenes and drives Sauron out of Dol Guldur and into the East. At this time Sauron is too weak to even stand against Gandalf, yet his Nazgul have managed to destroy the North Kingdom, capture Minas Ithil and gained a foothold in Mordor. That is pretty good.
I do have a question about the rings; The one ring was powerful because as he made it he was pouring his power and malice into it, the more part of his soul, how then did the other rings, especially the three that Sauron never touched, get their power? They were made by elves so no malice in them, I doubt that the elves would have put their souls into them in whole or in part. What gave them power?
It's all very mysterious but it's like asking how Feanor made the Silmarils. A part of their desire or will must surely pass into it, one reason why they can't just keep making them over and over. But the "mechanics" are purposefully vague and more in line with myth and legend.
Since they are still subject to the one, Celebrimbor seemed to take what he had learned and then created these on his own, of his own desire and skill. The motives being less evil would seemingly make a difference. I wouldn't think of it as passing his spirit into them but I have always thought that he'd certainly feel a great loss of spirit if he had been alive to see them fail.
I think I'll cover this question in a video.
@@TheRedBook Wow, thanks! Looking forward to seeing that. The spine of my Lord of the Rings novel was just repaired, (all 3 in 1 makes a heavy book) and I'm going to read it again but I've never gotten much further into the legendarium than that. Your videos and explanations are interesting and helpful.
@@brianhelm2328 Glad to hear it! I feel bad sometimes when I basically say "I'll make a video about it" instead of answering in the comments but a lot of people's questions are exactly the kinds of topics I want to discuss. I just hope people stick around to see those videos getting made :D not enough time in the day to do all of them at once!
@@TheRedBook Of course we know how Fëanor made the Silmarilli, it was through the Silima substance that he invented himself...
Just a joke 🤓
For a real world equivalent to point 14, the creation of the Saturn V rocket for the Apollo program was such a massive financial investment, and involved so much technical expertise that existed at the time, that even by the 80s it was impossible for NASA to recreate the rocket if they wanted to.
The creation of a work of brilliance is sometimes unrepeatable, and I don't think it constitutes a plot hole that Sauron didn't simply make more great rings.
Well said👍
👍
I hesitate to describe anyone as a hack journalist, but they have an internet to fill and any old copy will do. Next week will be tips on saving soap, or how to fold a sheet (with hopefully less ignorant jottings). Oh and 'raises, not begs' was displaying heroic restraint ^^
I wonder if the cinematic portrayal of Sauron as a spirit manifested in the form of a great lidless eye is to blame for some of this. If I recall, Sauron could still assume some form of physicality, despite the loss of the One Ring. I am not certain on this, however.
Sauron had taken a physical shape again and Gollum commented on a missing finger. He definitely wasn't physically an eye. I think the movie portrayal has caused a lot of confusion.
The funniest thing about this series is that there is no mention of the one thing that is confusing about sauron. That the is one of two bad guys, both of which rule from towers, seek the ring, have orc army and attack kingdoms of men, and one is names Sauron, and the other Saruman, a difference of barely more then an added "m"
It's actually interesting since the names themselves aren't linked closely in their meaning. Saura (putrid) Saru (skill). He also originally had different names for Saruman before settling on what we have - Sarumand and Saramond. At least the pronounciation of Sauron and Saruman isn't really similar.
My take is rIngs of power are like batteries. The ring maker charges the ring with some of his power. He can then loan the ring to a partner would can then wield the makers power in a separate location than the maker. By doing this the ring maker can deploy his power in two locations simulataneously. As to what one would want to do this consider which of these is more effective: (1) a 1MT H-bomb or (2) 10 Hiroshima-sized A-bombs. I would argue #2 is more effective even though it has one-half the power of the first.
It was this feature that motivated the Elven smiths to make rings in the first place. Of course Sauron's real plan was to make a master ring and using it to control the wielders of the lesser rings. (This is a second property of rings of Power than Sauron did not reveal to the smiths).
Even though his original plan failed Sauron cam out ahead. Consider he gained 9 powerful servants whose power cam from the Elves, not himself, while he still had his ring and so all of his own original power. Not only that but the greatest of his enemies had poured some *their* power into rings than they could not use, making them weaker.
Seems like a pretty clever scheme to me.
"Investigated it for the article"... quickly googled
Still seems like too much effort...
i would like to refute this on the grounds that a 3s google would easily clarify any/all points raised >_>;;
I have one thing that does confuse me too, though, when it comes to Sauron "making his own Kryptonite" as it were. Maybe this is explained somewhere (I won't pretend that my knowledge of Tolkien's world is extensive in any way), but isn't Sauron basically the equivalent of a "fallen" angelic being? Isn't he aware that the world will eventually end and a second world will be sung into existence? Seems a bit risky to bind yourself - as an eternal being - into a non-eternal, physical object. 😕I understand Sauron wanted to control the world, but this seems strangely short-sighted for what is essentially an angel. Surely, there must have been a better way to accomplish his dastardly plans?
That's a far better way to ask something that confuses you. It can be confusing to think about this. The person writing the article was talking nonsense 😂
Basically, Sauron, as one of the Ainur, is bound to the world as long as it lasts. He chose to descend into it with the rest of the Ainur who chose to after the Music of the Ainur.
He wishes to rule those within Middle-earth after having fled following the War of Wrath. To really have an impact on the physical world, one needs to become a part of it. This is why some of these angelic spirits take on physical forms. Morgoth and Sauron took this further by displacing natural inherent power into the physical world in order to have even greater control.
Morgoth did with his Morgoth’s Ring. I have a video about that if interested. Sauron did it with his Ring of Power. An attempt to dominate the great beings who dwelt in Middle-earth. Beings who he could not naturally overwhelm completely.
These rings would then make Middle-earth an unchanging land, free of decay or change... Which is the purpose of all the Great Rings. His own master ring would then allow him to be at the top of the pyramid. Ruling in some eternal unchanging realm as essentially a king of Kings.
Risky? Absolutely, but he thought it was a sound plan and fell to hubris. He never considered it could work against him...
@@TheRedBook Ah, all right, I did find your video on Morgoth's Ring, very interesting. 😊Does this mean that if Sauron had his way, Arda would never be unmade and there would be no second Music? That's pretty dark, for all the people to be stuck in what will essentially be turned into a worldwide prison for eternity. 😬
@@hallonkatt - The Red Book's reply to your question reflects a vastly more expansive understanding of Tolkien's world than I can muster, but I can add my own perspective, which is based on enough years of living among people of all kinds to have learned a fundamental lesson-namely, you cannot apply rational criteria to irrational behavior.
This is what Rose The Critic fails to understand. The choices Sauron makes all make sense *_to him_* because of who he is...but look at who he is-an utterly perverse, self-prepossessed, terminally egocentric mind who is incapable of understanding a simple fundamental truth: _All beings with free will live to pursue happiness,_ however _THEY_ define it. They are not interested in how Sauron (or anyone else) defines happiness.
Perhaps there will always be creatures who want to be dominated by others, but people who want the freedom to make their own choices for their own lives do not want to be dominated by the will of others. You see the explicit reference to such people throughout Tolkien in the phrase "the free peoples of the world". That is not an allegory; it is a reflection of the real world we live in - a reflection of real human nature. It is not fantasy.
In other words, when you seek to dominate others, you set yourself against the very nature of "the free peoples of the world". It cannot possibly end well.
Sauron was either oblivious to that truth, or worse, he recognized it and hated it. My guess is the latter is true. He deprecated it, considered it irrelevant, and genuinely believed he could subjugate it to his will. Hubris.
But truth is still truth. You don't have to like it, but if you dismiss it or deny it, you do so at your peril. And that's exactly what Sauron did. And ultimately it led to his own destruction. He was a victim of his own irrationality.
@@Vito_Tuxedo Well said, buddy. Hoist on his own petard. Sauron must have been a Progressive.
As for trapping Sauron, well, the Numenoreans tried it and look how that turned out.
The logic in that article underlines a general lack of depth of perception present in modern society. Everything is viewed at a surface level and then judged by people with superiority complexes. They just want to feel right about something because taking an in depth look into this topic is much more difficult and requires the ability of self reflection.
Yes, I think it was very lazy and written "Just to get something out ".
It’s a weird trend in some quarters to have no sense of a timeline or production origins when dealing with popular literature or media phenomena. It’s like it’s just one big mash-up rather pointlessly analysed at the level of personal consumption. On the plate: a burger, some french fries, a corn cob and a salad. In the stomach - a featureless mess about to graduate into a turd destined for some public place of emplacement.
Wait...Rose is trying to use rational criteria to evaluate irrational behavior, and then is surprised that it doesn't make sense? Evidently, she doesn't know that immoral behavior (controlling others against their will) is irrational. In the domain of volitional interaction, immoral behavior is destabilizing and ultimately backfires on those who use it, which makes it irrational. OF COURSE it doesn't make sense. If she read the books at all, she didn't understand them.
Very good point actually. It's this idea that all characters in a story should know everything the reader knows or act perfectly all the time. I really don't get it. "Why would Sauron do this?" Because we understand his mind. He's not infallible or omnipotent...
@@TheRedBook There is a ground rule in fantasy...well, in all fiction, really, but *_especially_* in fantasy. It's called "the willing suspension of disbelief". It's a compact between the author and the reader, wherein the reader has the courtesy to (not to put it too delicately) STF up and let the author tell the story, on the story's own terms. What this particular critic has done, essentially, is insist that Tolkien tell the story on her terms.
I'm with you. I really don't get it at all. There is no part of such arrogant insistence that I am able to understand. If she wants a different story, there is probably one out there in the wide world that will suit her just fine. If not, she should write it herself.
I consider myself a reasonable humanoid. I may not always be perfectly rational, but I strive to be. So, as someone who at least knows what rationality is, the thing about Rose's insistence that Sauron makes no sense that really pegs the irony meter for me is the fact that her criticisms are actually the things that make no sense. 😎
I personally feel the author does not understand how Tolkien's World works. As you stated there mgiht be some references to books but still we can se that this article opinion is affected a lot by the movie depiction. The creator tries to look at Fantasy writen about 100 years ago from the perspective of today's Fantasy which absolutely diffrent thing.
While Sauron's forging of the one ring was obviously a failure for him, it did succeed in causing enough chaos and strife to make his old master Melkor proud.
The elvish rings lost their power once the one was destroyed and they crossed back over the great sea. The Dwarves are a shadow of what they once were because of their rings. The age of Men brought with it the death of what made the prior ages so magical. So in a way, while Sauron was slain, he did succeed in a number of ways.
Yes but the purpose of existence was always to lead the world into an Age of Men, to bring some sort of calm to the world. The Firstborn leaving the world to the Secondborn. With the defeat of Sauron, Men are then free to make their own mistakes or improve themselves. It's down to them now, without the interference of Dark Lords.
@@TheRedBook Fair enough! But the age of Men will surely create its own human counterparts to the Dark Lord.
Look at the old Numenoreans. Sure Sauron influenced them, but it is they who did all the conquering and enslaving. It was their vanity that brought the great army to the shores of Valinor.
Men will be an end unto themselves. That's what the tragedy of the 4th age would've been. Civil war.
@@louisdemm1758 Indeed, even my video "The New Shadow of the Fourth Age" speaks of the fall of man. The difference is, it would be completely down to the race of Men to deal with their own problems, to better themselves, or fall to darkness. That choice gets taken away when you include divine Dark Lords fighting wars for ages.
Sauron:
I wish to rule them all...but I want to be Civil...
I will manipulate others because I don't think they can think for themselves...
I wish for my enemies to surrender...even though I attack them with vast armies.
Its it so hard to understand me?
I personally wouldn't say Gandalf & Co could just go ahead and destroy Sauron - in the movies, as ScreenRant was using, at Dol Guldur, Sauron utterly dominates Gandalf, and clearly intimidates Saruman to the point of making him his servant. Elrond basically just stood and stared. Only Galadriel even looked like she could confront Sauron.
Sauron's big problem was that he didn't have the right people advising him. given his Immortality, vast natural and manpower resources at his Command, with advancing technology , he did not need to Conquer Middle Earth, in time, he could have BOUGHT it.
Personally I think this article reads like someone who only saw the movies and nothing more. These are questions I've seen countless times and answered myself as well to friends that I got into the movies.
I like the relationship between Sauron and the Ring. I don’t see the vulnerability of it as a plot hole. Morgoth did something similar when he poured his power and will into all of his followers and the world itself. Through their ambitions, both Sauron and Morgoth accepted the risks and weaknesses that came with their actions bc the potential reward was worth it in their eyes. Their own hubris and overconfidence is what paved the way for their ultimate defeat.
I love the New style of miniature
The thumbnail??
@@TheRedBook yup
@@ellanenish5999 I think they stand out a bit more.
I definitely agree that the author of the article doesn't really know what they're talking about. I'll say though there does seem to be a little bit of aggression directed toward the author along side their chosen words. Having said that I love listening to these three videos. Superb.
There's no aggression on my part. I don't hate the a author or feel anger. It's a response to a terrible article.
@@TheRedBook Fair response. I may have misinterpreted but I thank you for your clarification.
No need to apologise, I can see why a purely negative reaction to something can appear aggressive. It's not as bad as someone else in the comments saying I was only attacking the article because a woman wrote it :P !
You should be running the new Amazon series. Why do I feel like you are FAR MORE qualified to cast and script that show than whoever they got to do it. Can't wait to Samuel L jackson as Sauron
"I've had it with these motherfucking Númenóreans on this motherfucking island!"
@@TheRedBook dead
In the hands of mortals the Ring is temptation and sin and it chains the soul in darkness. It is a program hanging on a glitch to keep from fulfilling its purpose for fear of termination.
Hello friend. Screen Rant cannot be trusted with anything, not just LotR. All their "writers" are profound cretinoids and talentless hacks of the worst kind. I don't know why you had any expectations from them or their superficial clickbait articles. It is good that you made this video to showcase their ignorance, unreliability and poor writing skills. But I believe it is beneath your dignity to even acknowledge those people. You have the best and most in-depth Tolkien channel in CZcams. None of them can even reach up to your ankle.
Anyone know what would have happened if Sauron succeeded? Would he have just walked into the Halls of Mendos after everything, free Melkor and just hand him the keys to everything? I mean he could just leave him there until his prophesied breaking of the wall of night or the door or whatever the fuck, but that wouldn’t be till ages later.
Were as I can agree Sauron is a confusing character, there are varying depictions of him in the books and he is odd as antagonist in that he is rarely seen nor does he directly combat anyone, except in recounting legends. I do not feel that his exist surrounding the one ring is odd, my own view is this, Sauron is an immortal Miair spirit. He is obsessed with order and decides he is the only person in middle earth with ability to make middle-earth orderly and blissful like in Valinor. He realises that people don’t take well to being told what to do, so he helps create the rings of power, so that he can influence the leaders of the free peoples of middle earth into doing what he wants them to do. In order to control them, he needs to put a lot of his power into a ring to control the others. This process binds him to middle earth, as a maiar he is a spiritual being, but by putting his power into a physical object, he ties himself to the physical world permanently. He maintains his spirit form and his powers are increased in middle earth, whilst he wears the ring. After he dies in the fall of Numenor, his spirit form is weakened to the point where he struggled to make a physical form again without the ring. If the ring had been destroyed there and then he would not have been able to make a physical form again. The ring now acts as a tether to the physical world. In regards to why he would do this, there a few explanations, the first is that he didn’t not know this would happen, the second is that he was so obsessed with order that he did not care and the third is that he knew, but didn’t care as he believed he would be in control of everyone and he would have no threats to himself. Tolkien often points to the enemies of middle earth putting too much energy and power into their creations, it happened to Melkor and Saruman as well, all three powerful, but spend their strength on prideful creations, until there are no longer as powerful as they once were,
So he sent the witch king out to find the ring. What was the witch king to do when he found it? Who would he give it to? Would he really give it up?
The Witch-king would take it straight back to Sauron. This is why he chose the Ringwraiths to collect the ring, they can't go against the will of Sauron, and he has willed them to return this ring to him.
@@TheRedBook did Sauron have a body? Was he capable of wearing it?
@@badxxxmonkey5541 - Sauron had regained shape by the time of The Lord of the Rings. He wasn't physically an 'eye' as depicted in the adaptations.
I had no knowledge of this article. A very confusing piece of writing.😉🖖
Gandalf was afraid.
It's screenrant, so it wouldn't be shocking if they just copied and pasted from 2 or 3 different sources, which would explain why some items seemed like the writer read the books while others clearly didnt.
Yes, but what about Aragorn’s tax policy?
Is that you George ;) ?
@@TheRedBook 😂
Is the creation of the Ring the only reason Sauron seems more powerful than typical Maiar? Before this, was he just a particularly crafty Istari level magician? that might be overpowered by a Balrog or an elf prince or two?
Sauron's strength was never in combat (as we can see throughout his history). His power lies in his mind, his ability to corrupt and overpower others through sheer will. The Ring isn't what makes him great among the Maiar. Look at it more like the rings exist because he is great among the Maiar. He has always been a gifted and 'powerful' member of that order. Melkor seemed to benefit him by bestowing power and authority on him..something he then never wanted to give up.
@@TheRedBook What about during his werewolf lord phase? I do believe he turned himself into a werewolf on occasion? And the only benefit to that would seem to be personal fighting.
@@wisnoskij yes, in his attempt to fulfil a prophecy. He still lost 😅.
Sauron owned even the creative Idea of the rings of power. Without the One Ring, there will be no such thing as magic rings.
To create magic rings as a real thing, and to make the Ruling Ring itself, he had to use nearly all of his Eru given power.
Had he regained the One Ring, would there have been more rings to come?
A question on point 11: Gandalf did know that Bilbo had a ring of power, right? He didn't know it was the one ring, but he would have known it had a 1/16 chance of being the one. And if it weren't the one, it would still be dangerous and worth safe keeping, no? Why wouldn't Bilbo's possession of a ring of power have set off red lights for Gandalf far earlier? I feel like there's a reason I'm missing here.
Part of this is a consequence of Bilbo's ring becoming vastly more important when Tolkien created The Lord of the Rings. It wasn't the "One Ring" in The Hobbit because that concept hadn't been invented yet. Despite comments from Gandalf about Gollum obtaining a "Great" ring, it's possible that Gandalf suspected that the ring may be one of the essay's in the craft, or lesser rings, due to the lack of a gem. All the Great Rings, except the One, have a gem. He says he had always suspected but when the head of your order, whom you trusted, tells you that the One Ring was lost forever...then you probably convince yourself he is right.
""How long have you known all this?" asked Frodo again.
"Known?" said Gandalf. "I have known much that only the Wise know, Frodo. But if you mean 'known about this ring', well, I still do not know, one might say. There is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess.
"When did I first begin to guess?" he mused, searching back in memory. "Let me see - it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly as it was - that at least was clear from the first."
I suspect that an in-universe explanation over it being a development of Tolkien's writings is that Gandalf let Bilbo keep this ring because he did not know for sure yet how perilous it was. Keep a watch on Bilbo, do some investigating and research. Bilbo didn't seem to be in any danger from it (at the moment). And even when Gandalf really starts to suspect what's going on after Frodo obtains the ring, it takes years before Gandalf finally confirms it.
@@TheRedBook Yeah, I suspected it had to do with the transition between the hobbit and the trilogy. In keeping with an in-universe explanation, I suppose my hang-up is that even if Saruman had convinced Gandalf that the one ring was lost, and that, therefore, this new ring of Bilbo’s was a lesser ring of Sauron, it would still merit concern. After all, it was the “lesser” rings of Sauron’s that made the ring wraiths what they are. Would not any ring made by Sauron and Celebrimbor be perilous, if only to a hobbit? (Your video on the rings and immortality was perfect, by the way, and I think adds to the point I’m making here).
BUT! It occurred to me that my earlier readings of the trilogy and legendarium left me with the impression that there were more rings than the famous batch made by Celebrimbor and Sauron. If there is “ring-lore,” one would think that it stretches further back than just those created by these two in the second age. I’m sure there were a lot of “lesser-lesser-lesser” rings, so to speak. Perhaps created by Celebrimbor and Sauron (prototypes or just those created in the learning/discovery process), or simply others long before them. You know, we get the big moves of creation in the legendarium, but not all the small in-between moves, right; we hear of the Silmarils, the great rings of power, etc. but we don’t hear about the lesser jewels, the common rings, the ‘pretty-good-but-not-legend-worthy swords’ etc. lol.
So perhaps this provides another in-universe explanation. Gandalf perhaps thought it wasn’t even one of the rings of power created by Sauron and Celebrimbor, but simply another semi-powerful, less important and less historically relevant ring created by another elf/dwarf smith.
Also, to add to your reasoning, the span of time between Bilbo finding the ring and Gandalf’s confirmation was some 50/60 years (I think - too lazy to go check), which would be nothing to Gandalf, just enough time to do a thing or two and some research perhaps (the perception of time is always hard to fathom in Tolkien’s world, considering the immortal perspectives sitting alongside those of men/hobbits).
Thanks for the response! I’ve been loving your videos by the way! Waiting for your channel to blow up.
More simply he over reached himself. I doubt he ever considered that this would be the outcome. He fell victim to his own arrogance and pride!
“Midwit journo dismisses thing that they don’t actually understanding”
Nothing out of the ordinary here.
Either she did not read the books, wasn't paying attention, or only saw the movies.
OR she's being deceptive.
I go with the deceptive part. Some stuff she says would only be known to book readers but she then ignores the books when it comes to other parts that would help her confusion...
Did Sauron ever enter or dwell in the Undying Lands?
No evidence that he ever did.
Rowling tell us a lot. The one ring was a horcrux. But not created for immortality, but to have the power to control the other rings. I always thought an interesting thought was, what if the Balrog had gotten ahold of the One Ring? I suspect the Balrog would have been able to very effectively exploit the power of the ring and make it his own.
I disagree that it was a horcrux since those were created specifically for immortality and to cheat death. The anchoring of Sauron to Middle-earth through the One Ring was more like a happy side effect of it since he thought he'd never be parted from it anyway and never dreamt he'd need such assistance in that regard.
As for the Balrog. It's been debated but I don't quite know. Mastering it requires the will to master it and utilise it for something. Would the Balrog need or want to master the One Ring? I'm not so sure. It's motives are pretty much "I serve Morgoth and I'm waiting for him".
@@TheRedBook Did you ever play D&D? The reason I mention that is I've always t hought the Balrogs were Chaotic Evil, whereas Sauron was Lawful Evil. I think there was much more of a " I just like to fuck stuff up" vibe to the Balrogs.