Lithium-Ion (18650 cells) versus Lipo -- which is best?
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2019
- If you fly an RC plane or drone you have typically used a lithium polymer (lipo) battery but there is an alternative -- the lithium ion cell, typically in the 18650 form-factor. What is the difference? When would you use Li-ion in preference to Lipo and vice-versa.
I will shortly post some practical "field test" videos showing how great (or small) the differences are. - Věda a technologie
218 grams for people in Murica it's equivalent for about 3 yards :D Nice burn
Burn baby burn! XD
Metric system FTW!
If a kilometre is 5 eighths of a mile then surely 218 grams is 136.25 inches or 3.78 yards.
LOL. I have a general idea how much a pound is since it's a more regularly used unit, but when other RC folks start talking about their model that weighs 2 ounces I have no intuition for how much that is. Metric for this american please. LOL
that was GOLD XD
I loved it... really loved it
Bruce you are king of reviewers! You make the hobby fun and informative! Jumper t16 and nirvana transmitter moved the 18650 now I see why! Thanks mate!
So happy to see a direct comparison. I love you Bruce! Will be jumping on that Patreon as soon as I can!
Really excited to see how your testing turns out.
I like where this is going. Staying tuned for more. Thanks.
Totally looking forward to a comprehensive comparison.. Thanks!!
"SwellPro," probably not the best name someone came up with for a LiPo brand-name...lol.
That rivals "Nova" as a car name, being sold in Mexico.
They do SWELL big time lol
Can't wait to see the results Bruce, this looks interesting.
Very interesting. Im excited to see you compare the two
I have been wondering about running them in parallel config, so looking forward to your next video.
Hi Bruce,
Something I have also been testing recently. My application is long range quadcopters.
Amp draw is very low, 10-15A. I use Sony VTC6 30A 3120 cells.
I did some back to back testing with an only 5200 multistar vs a 4s2p ‘6240’mah pack. Running down to 80% discharge.
I found the most interesting and very important fact is that although the liion has more capacity per gram, as they run to a lower voltage, their mid voltage is much lower than a lipo, there for I found the nearly identical weight packs, that more amps were used from the liion to keep the craft in there air.
I was getting 20+ min flight times from both, however significantly more cumulative distance with the lower capacity lipo.
I have found that the liion gets hot in flight, and their capacity drops with say 10A vs the lipo that will delivery their 80% discharge with much higher volts at the end.
I also tried a 6s1p 3120 liion. Vs a newer turnigy 5200 4s vs the multistar 4s 5200This is where the test results changed a lot as realised the multistar was very tired, max cumulatively was 20km to a 80% in 22 mins(but voltage dropped off) The turnigy was doing 20km in 18 mins to 80% & still lots of volts.
The 6s max cumulatively was 16km to a complete discharge where it drops!
From now I’m only using lipos & the liion remains fantastic field charging batts
This is actually a huge positive finding 😮
Great information. This could be fun to experiment with. Thanks for making the video!
Interesting video on these two battery types. Thanks for sharing.
These LG HG2 batteries are quite good. I used them recently and my flight duration is doubled compared to same weight LIPO. And I bench tested the discharge current also. These batteries hold the voltage even if running up to 10A for about 20-30 seconds, which is good for take off. And if you cruise at 4-5Amps, the batteries will be very happy to run for a very long duration. I hope very soon we should be getting professionally built Li-ion packs. DIY is a fun too!
Hats off for the video.
Hello, I have an inexpensive crawler that came with a 8.4v nimh pack. Family, bought an Admiral 7.4v 3500mah pack and Skyrc 6B balance charger. My crawler has two 370 motors on axles. New Apex 20kg steering servo and Quicrun 1060 esc with motors in parallel. With Nimh pack and my mods, run time dropped from 8 minutes to 4 minutes. I can setup esc for lipo with jumper.
What do you think it's run time will be with the Li-on pack? I have to wait till Christmas to use the new battery etc. I chose the small format battery for space limitation. The Henglong tank guys like the Admiral battery and their drivetrain uses two motors.
So, maybe 40 minutes running now?
Nice topic! I'm very interested to watch your prep and tests.
Excellent video. In one short I got all my answers. Thanks a lot.
love the grams to yards conversion!!!
Great information. Thanks for the breakdown. I totally forgot about "Lipo" batteries. A great way to go for an endurance FPV plane.
Fantastic video. You really know your stuff.
Hope you are posting a battery build video 👍
the craft king #1 agreed. With a description on how to wire balance cables
really good site i used as a guide blog.seidel-philipp.de/diy-build-a-longrange-lithium-ion-battery/
I second this!
We have 4S 8800mA Li-Po packs and 4S 15000mA Li-Ion Packs. They weigh very close to one another.
In our survey fixed wing, (when the Li-Po's were still good) they gave us around 35min with the whole setup running. With the Li-Ions, we get around 55min-1hr flight time.
The only issue is because our model is heavy, on warm days with no wind, the Li-Ions tend to not give enough power for thrust for take-offs. We also use a catapult system to get it in the air, as it's a pusher and got a big prop.
Great overview - thanks! Any update on using this in a long range quad?
equivalent to 3 yards, Brilliant Bruce (hit those no metric "fools" hard).. I used to fly on A123 cells, they packed a punch (when lipos only had 2C change capability, they were amazing fast charge)
Found this information useful. Thanks!
amazing overview, fun to watch. love the application story of rc flight plane
Love this! Battery build video plz.
Hi Sr, nice video, thanks for the tips. I have a question, which model are you using to get those 20 min flight ? and what motor/battery/esc do you use? Thanks in advance!!
I just saw this and can't find the follow-up video you were mentioning at the end. Did you post a video showing a comparison of how the battery techs/types performed?
Hi Bruce I'm in NZ and wondering were you source the H2s? Hope you're doing well keep it up.
Thanks kindly for the Refresh on the info😎 🔥👌👊
Would it be possible to mix the batteries in the pack with an additional control circuit. i.e when running at low current draw use the li-ion, but when current draw is high switch to lipo for a burst?
Thank you Bruce. I am interested too in lion batteries for long distance quads. Have you tried lion batteries that are smaller than 18650, for example 16340 or 18350 or 18500? Thanks!
Nice presentation.
So I have to say I'm using 18650s in my vape every day and my Fpv Glider got a 6000mah pack made from LG Hg2 in 3s2p config.
It's really great for lower current applications that need long runtimes
Thx for sharing! 2 questions : in your experience: whats a save margin to fly with for lipo and lions ?
atm i stop my lipos at 3.6 but at home they have 3.8…so i guess 3.4 under load would be okay ? or even less ?
Thanks in advance
Very interested in your battery making videos it would be awesome to see you make some more!
Li-Ion tend to be used in low-impact environments, as the electrolyte is more liquid than gel (and also why the stronger casing). Lithium is highly reactive (read combustable) and a case breach is likely catastrophic to a model.
Should be great for a cruise wing type model as the discharge rating is usually not as high as Li-Po, but for a raw power machine (like a quad or a heli), Li-ion would not be ideal.
Interested to see how this turns out.
The lithium in li-ion cells (and lipos, which are also li-ion cells and the same thing just in a different form factor) is irrelevant for fires. There's so little of it in the cells and it's not in metallic form either. All the battery fires are the electrolyte burning after being heated up by a shortcircuit.
As fellow kiwi it is weird to hear a kiwi accent on one of these videos keep it up mate you're doing awesome!
Perfect timing! I have a VTOL and have seen that Foxtech has a battery swap board. Use a small Iipo for vertical take off and landing and switch to li ion for forward flight. Only problem is unless I want to spend a ton of money I'll have to build the 6S 12000mah battery. Show us the battery build!
Where did you source those HG2s from Bruce? Looking to get some myself
Bruce, whats you views on using Li-Ion vs Lipos in transmitters? The new Transmitters (Jumper & Taranis 9d 2019) recommend Li-Ion or Lipo but not LiFe. I've always preferred using LiFe or Ni-MH in my TXs as I keep them in the house as opposed to my Lipos which are in a big metal box in the garage. In a TX, both will be drawing a lot less current so 'should' be safer but I think the Li-Ion has a more graceful dropoff.
Thanks PaulG
I purchased a whole slew of Westinghouse 18650 cells from Wallmart a couple of years ago for $1 each. They are rated at 2,000 mAh with no C rating. They work fine in my Mini Talon as a 3p4s pack. Better yet are the 26650 LiitoKala Li ion batteries, rated at 3500 mAh with a C rating of 20 Amps. I paid $4/each and found their capacity to be 4000 mAh. I have a spot welder, but found that soldering them into packs does not hurt the battery and is much safer in a crash because spot welds have a tendency to come loose in a crash and might start a fire.
Been using 18650 and 21700/20700 batteries on quads for the last 12 months and will never go back to foil cells. The Sanyo UR18650 range (now owned by Panasonic) are a good cell that I mainly use and can output 30A constant and cost just £2.50 each!
Any decent experience with the 21700/20700 batteries? Their power density is so low...
After lots of pondering I went for the Sony VTC-6, it's overly expensive in comparison but that all good for a 3S1P. Their low internal resistance makes them stand out.
Hi Bruce, just wondering if cell phone batteries can be used for light weight models?
Hi nice video. I am building a surveillance drone so endurance is very important (flight time) but the 4 motors needs to lift 2.4kg so do you thing it is too much for li-ion batteries? Thank you
You'd want a low dropout BEC using li-ion 2S, but if the label current rating on those cells is anywhere close accurate, those look like the way to go for an endurance model. I was looking at a 2S pack and 10A motor controller for a sub-250g model.
I am afraid that this 20A figure would be a bit optimistic.
Is it really sustained current at which the battery is able to deliver all it's juice?
It would probably reduce capacity by 30-40% or something.
But if you are able to cruise at 7A per battery, it might be much better.
I've been using the Sony VTC6's (4s2p) in my 7" long range quad with great results, they will deliver 60A+ if you need it but I mostly cruise around at about 10-15A for 20+min flights. Be careful where you get then though, plenty of dodgy sellers out there..
FWIW Sony batteries have burned up more laptops than all other makes combined.
VTC-6 cells are IMR, not ICR. No fire hazard unless they get physically damaged, as their resistance increases with heat.
Forget about Sony.Chinese brand Liitokala has 40 amps discharge for 21700 ,4000 mah cells.The best brand of cells in the world for high discharge.
Hi Bruce, great intel as always. Is there any chance you could explain discharge rating? A single Li-on battery is good for 20A discharge, are you still limited to 20A discharge when you connect the cells in series or parallel. I'm thinking about making a 6S but need max discharge of 60A. Would 6S 2P work? Thanks again mate and keep up the great work.
Tyron Moore wiring in parallel adds the discharge ratings.
Also, the higher end 18650s hit 30A continuous, so two of them would be ideal, but then capacity is knocked down to ~2100mah.
If you can find them, 21700s might be a better option for you.
Try to have a 20% overhead for your continuous discharge rating at the very least.
Was there a practical test? I can't seem to find it. Thanks.
A couple years back I built a camera quad that I used 18650 cells in. It was purely as an experiment to see if it would work. I built it to only sip power, but worked out that at full throttle it might be a little too close to the amp limit for my liking with 3S2P (Like Li-Po's, The easier a time you give them, The more cycles you get before they're scrap), So went with 3S3P instaid. As I also vape, and already have a few 4 cell Li-Ion chargers on hand, I decided not to solder up a bloody great pack, But got some battery holders instead.
I'd built the quad to take 4S so I used three 4 cell holders and wired each to hold either 4 cells in series, Or 3 cells and a dummy "Pass through" cell.
It flew pretty well on 3S so I never actually got around to trying it on 4s in the end.
Flight times were......... Longer than I could concentrate on flying in one stretch ! But I estimated it would be somewhere around 25 minutes if I wasn't pushing it too hard.
In the end, for convenience I converting it to run with the stack of 5000 3s Li-Po packs I bought for a larger folding Y6 I built as its replacment, Then not long after that, as it was now surplus to requirements a friend bought it off me.
As an experiment it was pretty good, But at around £60 for the 9 cells it was cheaper to just use budget Li-Po's as it didn't need a high C pack.
New Li ions like this LG HG2 are very good, and can give a good discharge rate. These batteries with 2p configuration can give lift off easily
I'm currently studying these batteries myself. I have about 25-30 Eneloop AAA's and AA batteries, they are the best. I've had those rechargeable bats for 7years and only 1 shorted cell. Bought all other types, Duracell and powerex batteries and Duracell beats the powerex. I have 1 powerex left out of about 8 AA. Weight is a factor but I've found the heavier they are is better but they short out early also.
hello,which batteries do you think would be better in jump starters for auto's?
Hello. I’m trying to decide what type of battery pack would provide the longest life at the smallest size between 2 to 6 continuous amps. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Good for long duration flying for sure not for general RC flying use and can't be charged as fast.
Lifepo4 a123 cells used to be good for fast charging and high drain but heavy for same capacity.
Lipo is unfortunately still the best option generally but I can't wait to see the back of them for safely reasons.
Most of the 18650's you can charge with 1C.
@@ZeroFPV yes, while a123 lifepo4 cells and newer lipos can be charged at 3 to 5c or even higher. 8 min charges are fantastic but somewhat scarey lol.
@@FlyingFun.
Oh, wow. :-) I'm more the 10 packs in parallel @1C charging type. I want to keep them healthy as long as possible.
@@ZeroFPV yeah, I'm somewhere in between, 2c charge regularly, reason is British weather creates short windows for flying and getting charged up fast before it changes is needed, I don't store charged....
I have multiple chargers and charge individual packs , so in 25 minutes I go from storage to full charge , hppefuly before the rain starts again lol..
I am looking for a good and comprehensive kit for battery connectors and wiring. I have been looking at building a comprehensive kit but was hoping to find one mostly if not all the way put together. If you do not know of one, do you have a list for putting a kit together or maybe you might think about doing a video on the topic? Thanks.
Hi Bruce are you going to take us through what we need to solder these batteries and where to find the bits ? and the soldering it's self.. ?
What about the charge, discharge cycles between the two types? I think li-ion can endure many more cycles.
Omg 😂 equivalent of 3 yards!!! 🤣🤣🤣
You made my day!
Bruce can we reset the LV cutoff to actually get most of the juice from lion cells ?
I use exactly the same Li-Ion batteries for my foam 950gr. plane .In fact yesterday I just made one 4s pack.They work great and if you made 3s2p the current draw will be 40a and 6000 mah capacity.
did u use an bms on your li-ion?
@@ryu-yuta9259 No. I charged it with balance charger so bms is not required
dumb question but can you use these cells with any esc that is meant for a Normal Lipo pack as Long as to use the correct voltage.?
Are there any chemical constraints for lithium-ion unable to provide the same or better current discharge as lipo? (on similar weights proportion to the ones demonstrated)
There is a wide range of chemicals and electrodes for different applications. Basically you trade either cycle life or high discharge rates.
Eg the Rimac new 2C supercar has 120C discharge capacity 18650 cells.
Tesla uses a NMC composition for its storage batteries and NCA very low cobalt percentage for its automotive batteries. The cycle life is increasing, doubling every few years with latest estimates giving a million miles of use in their next generation Maxwell electrode packs, whilst dropping cost to $100kWh at the pack level.
czcams.com/video/VtoBkFF3X7E/video.html
The often used distinction between Li-ion and Li-polymer has nothing to do with chemistry (it is used wrongly). They are *all* Li-ion batteries. The two battery types are the same thing, just in different form factors. That form factor (and therefore different internal construction) is the main reason for the different current capabilities. There are cylindrical cells available that can easily provide currents in the tens of amp like a pouch cell, because their internal construction is designed for that. The pouch cells, that so many erroneously call li-polymer, are just "li-ion polymer" cells, because they are wrapped in a plastic (=polymer) package as opposed to being in a metal can.
They can have different chemistry, but so can cylindrical cells between them and pouch cells between them. Again, the form factor is not what dictates the chemistry, what the manufacturer puts in them is. You can have the same chemistry in either form factor. Have you ever seen something like IMR, INR, ICR, IFR, LMO, NMC, NCA, NCO, LCO or LFP written on cylindrical cells or in their datasheet? Those signify different chemistries. Pouch cells use the same, although they mostly use the Lithium-cobalt-oxide chemistry (ICR/LCO).
superdau That makes sense. Saw those labeling in 18650 cells. Thanks for the awesome explanation!!
i'm in the process of building David Windestal's long range tricopter, which people claim can get a 40 minute flight off a 5200 3s, and up to an hour if you stack two batteries together. i'm really curious to try on this a 3s 6 battery 18650 to see what crazy flight times are possible
I'm getting up to 14 minutes with a 4s 3000mAh and 5" (2205, 2300KV) so I'd say it's possible with bigger prop and lower KV. czcams.com/video/Mx6imo8B5iA/video.html
Those HG2's are a great choice. I've got loads originally meant for vaporizers, but damn if they don't put out the current!
Those and the Samsung 30q I always had good luck with
You tab welding or soldering the cells?
So which is better for photography flashes, Li-ion or LiPo?
Will you be soldering the cells together or do you have a spot welder?
You could solder 18650 battery together but you need special flux, for stainless steel soldering and high watt soldering iron. Otherwise your solder tin won't stick to the battery
Single motor rc air craft are fantastic for lion batteries with very long endurance flights in mind even just some fun lesure flying. There are other electronics you could throw in like a bost circuit if you must keep the volts around 11.1v (obviously weight comes into it again) or just use a extra cell since most of its life is below the voltage required.
Had a play a while ago with 18650 and a 4inch. Went ok.. couldnt really punch it. 5 inch... no chance. But 3 inch is looking like a sweet spot for a high capacity li ion 4 - 6s packs. I'll be doing this soon. Waiting on bits. :)
Forgot to add.. for the 3 inch im keen on using cr123 size li ion.
I use a 4s2p lithium ion pack on a bix3 and I don't even know how long it'll last because it last longer than I do. I think that's the best application for it. Long range fpv cruising.
Samsung 20700 come in at 69g: 3000mah, 30amp continuous! 🤯 Really tempted to do a 2s, low kv, Mini long range Tricopter in future. 😆 Small body, long arms, low kv, big props, sounds like a long range dream. 😁
Chinese brand Liitokala is better than Samsung.They have 4000 mah with 40 amps continuous 21700 for same weight.
Where'd you buy the Li-Ion's from?
I can hardly wait for the video with the flight time of ZOHD Talon GT Rebel :=)
yes making endurance packs with 18650's is extremely popular. I used Sony cells in a 3s2p for 60000 mah only slightly heavier than my cnhl 3s 2200. Ive gone half an hour on my AR Wing and land from boredom usually . Spent like $25 in supplies
will 2 sony or lg or samsung 18650's FIT into where a standard 3.7 1300mah lipo pack fits on say a 4x4 truck / buggy or ???
About 9 years ago - where does all the time go - you did a video about making two A123 cells into a receiver pack, are 18650 cells suitable for receiver pack? At the time you said that soldering together cells with no tabs was difficult so a video of how to connect these cells together would be great.
How can you determine the Mah of a battery (li-ion) if there are no markings on the cell if possible?
The biggest advantage of the LiPo batteries is that they can be cycled a lot more times than Li Ion batteries...
I have a 3s2p pack I made for my wing and it flies great, but I got so bored after 40 mins I end up landing and flying something faster usually,the calculator says it will fly for over an hour.
Sir, I think you converted that wrongly: 218g is 3 yards and one see-saw. :b
One question: which one is safer? I'm getting batteries for an Yamaha WX5 and I don't want my controller to catch on fire. The WX5 is a wind Midi controller manufactured from 1999 to 2017 and discontinued - no new ones available - and it requires 1.5V cells. I found both li-po and li-ion 1.5V cells but the li-po ones are easier to find here in Brazil. I also would like to know if I can keep them inside the instrument while not using it or if I should remove them.
Thanks for your patience! Nice video!
check out the liitokala 26650 cells too.
Price/watts and discharge rates are better, and people say they deliver better under higher loads.
I'm looking forward into building an EV pack but these might be the best thing in long-range and endurance RC since the 10C hk packs! :))
The low voltage cutoff of most ESC's gives problems with using 18650 cells, most of my HK esc i can't disable it, so started using bl heli esc's for fpv planes with mixed results.
Is the cutoff too high or too low?
too high, since the esc's cutoff at 3.2v which is normal for lipo's but way too high for li-ion cells since then you can't use 30% of the capacity. My nano talon flies 60-70 mins with a 4s 18650 pack.
please do more detailed measurements on lipo vs li ion.
Do you think a 4 cell lithium ion could deliver comparable power to a 3 cell lipo?
if we are making a pack out of 18650s
then how to calculate the output c rating
Rewatch the video... (1p=rating 2p=2x^^
A question to ask, if connect 2 of the 18650 batteries parallel, the discharge of 20A will be same or double?
Double mentioned in video, capacity will double as well
what is the distance it can fly on lipo baterries
Ur explanation is so good I understand it now 😂
Do Lithium Ion batteries last for more charging cycles?
it would be nice if you could make a video to show us how to make a 4s - 6000mah battery , thanks bruce
blog.seidel-philipp.de/diy-build-a-longrange-lithium-ion-battery/
I had not thought about those battery’s
Can I charge my Lithium-Ion 18650 2 cell set up with my Lithium Polymer 2 cell battery charger?
Where did you get the Li-Ion battery ?
Good day are those Li-io batteries rechargeable?
You did a Swell job explaining that, but there is no way i'd buy a SWELL battery.
What about LiFe batteries? How good can they be compared to LiPo and Lion
1+hour flight time on a 3s1p on a nano Goblin cruise speed about 35 mph top speed about 70 mph and it's under 250g with a foxeer mix HD fpv camera. So something like your little micro fpv plank it's using the same motor so you might be able to get the same performance don't you think?
It's 3amph for one li-ion or all 3 combined?
sir, if you dont show yourself and just speak, everyone will assume you are a young lad, very energetic.
Not everyone! Us old guys know him.
Bruce do you think the 18650 will be a good choice for a petrol rc car for just running the receiver
I bet it will
@@adrianpiekos4555 really iv made 2 x2s battery packs to try on my baja petrol buggy :-?