Why Top Speed is Always the Priority | Speed vs. Strength
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2022
- Why Top Speed is Always the Priority. This video is an excerpt from a Feed the Cats presentation, and it is the fifth and final episode in a series on my speed training ideas, explaining the pros/cons of Strength training to improve Speed with a Feed the Cats mentality.
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Hey Tony my son continues to improve. 3x10m flys yesterday 0.95 0.90 0.94 was his series. The 0.90 might be an outlier but even with the 0.94 and 0.95 I think he can run 2.90 for flying 30m 2.98 current pb. Hopefully good weather Wednesday and get the 2.90.
2.90 for a 30m fly is ELITE
@@coachtonyholler quitting soccer has brought his real speed right on - he was the fastest on the pitch but it was energy sapping. I wish we had more American sports in the UK that helped sprinting like football and maybe basketball for jumping. But we get all the slogging sports soccer and rugby oh and cross country to apparently make you stronger 🤣 we need to learn more about blocks and clearing them. We are very green at most things sprinting. Got a book by Nic Saluppo to help never heard of him but we`ll try some things.
If he maintains that world record can be broken 🤘
@@coachtonyholler Matt managed a 3.01 - 3.00 - 3.10 series Wednesday - Conditions weren`t the best - I was happy he ran two at pb level I know he`s got more in the tank, especially if he had a training partner or in a race. sub 11 here we come 🙂
We are sticking to only two sessions a week 1 of flying 10`s 1 of flying 30`s - On Fridays we are bringing his deadlift up.
@@fatmansprinter It’s really hard to duplicate 10m fly velocities in 30m flys in practice. None of my guys can do it.
he's right track speed isn't football speed! Put a track star on the field and have him run a fade it's not even close LOL!
I like your approach coach. I highly belief in max V sprinting. BUT i don't see jumping, especially long ground contact jumps like a standing vert as a good indicator or training tool for sprinting.
I also could say jumping is much more different to sprinting than similar. I found this to be more true for better athletes. The RSI is a much better indicator for sprinting of course because it's also time specific not just impulse specific.
I think that the key difference for a fast/elite sprinter is NOT happening in the ground contact phase but rather in the switching phase. I know this is different what Peter Weyand said.
But i have my reasons.
Understood. In my 42 years of coaching sprinters, I’ve found a STRONG correlation between jumping high, jumping far, “bouncing”, and sprint speed. Improving any of those four traits seem to improve the other three.
I’ve heard that generally stronger and thicker kids (at least lower body) tend to be better at accel, since accel is closer to pure strength in that you have to overcome your body mass inertia to get going. Which is why 100m sprinters are thicker (generally) than 400 guys. Do you find this true in your experience ?
Shorter thicker have more trouble holding speed for 200m. Their weight is more of a problem in a longer race. Strength big in acceleration and acceleration is a more of a factor in shorter races.
Hey Tony, would you say that 3x400m on 800m race pace with 3-4mins rest would be a good lactic workout and a predictor for the 800, since 3x200 is for the 400? Trying to incorporate FTC into my 800m training, rethinking everything about the way people usually train for the 800 right now 😅
Those 400s would be a good workout but not much lactate would be produced. It would be more lactate threshold. Think more like 3x or 4x 300 at 400 pace. trackfootballconsortium.com/how-to-train-the-400-800-group/
@@coachtonyholler Thank you so much Coach!
Hey coach Tony - I'm 28 year old and chasing my full potential on the track! I have done some 30m fly's this build-up season and I ran a new PB of 2.81s. I ran some "training" 60m in December and hit 6.82s. I've never been the greatest accelerator (ran 7.00s 60m and 10.58s 100m in 2016/2017) but now I feel like I have have become a much better accelerator with these somewhat decent times in the 60m but my 100m is no really improving. I feel like my top-end speed is lacking... My feeling is that my steps are way too short and quick but I've never gotten the hang of finding the balance. Any ideas?
PB's
60m: 6.82s
100m: 10.56s
200m: 20.89s
400m: 47.28s
10.58 100m with a 7.00 60m is completely bananas. You certainly have enough top end speed. There is an acceleration issue. Your 200m shows your top end speed too.
Question: are you against a heavy squat? 3x3 heavy w/5mins rest?
Still doing your atomic work with My girl. Speed growing like a maple tree.
I’m against anything that interferes with speed training.
If squatting is not interfering, I have no problem.
IMO, squatting does not make you faster but strength is still a positive thing.
Coach Holler- I'm not sure if you are in agreement with the Peter Weyand/ Barry Ross position that runners reach faster top speeds not by repositioning their limbs more rapidly in the air, but by applying greater support forces to the ground?
The question I have is: how does strength training help you apply more force to the ground when the foot may be in contact with the ground for less than a millisecond at elite level and faster than you can voluntarily contract a muscle?
Of course the question may not be properly framed as the actual reference is to support forces which presumably is not the same as creating force at ground level which if I understand Barry Ross correctly is a function of mass x gravity.
I think that Barry Ross mantained that the purpose of strength training was to be able to apply force equal to the ground reaction force (equal to the force created by the runner landing) and not to apply force to the ground to push off -which was achieved through the spring like action of the muscles. If so then that begs the question of how much strength is needed to achieve that purpose?
Peter Weyand is a rock star! He spoke at our TFC-Texas three years ago. Brilliant man. Never met Barry Ross but read "Underground Secrets" twice. If there was a Feed the Cats lifting book, Barry wrote it. Don't burn the steak!
I do believe that putting 5x body weight into the ground with a .08 second ground contact time can NOT be reproduced in the weight room. But, strength is good... especially for young athletes.
Your question is a great one.
People want to fight me when I say that 60% of my sprinters are football players and lift a lot. The other 40% don't lift nearly as much. I can't tell the difference between the two groups in regards to overall speed, acceleration, or speed improvement during the year. Those football players who chase infinite strength and fall in love with looking in the mirror actually get SLOWER.
Crazy huh?
@@coachtonyholler Yes it is but i guess the answer is that ultimately strength is dependant on muscle size so if you are chasing infinite strength you cannot do so without an increase in mass which probably undermines relative strength and mass specfic force.
That said if I may revert to my intial post:
1. I totally agree that force applied at ground contact cannot be replicated in the weight room and never is.
2. You say that strength is good but what part does strength play i.e what exact action does it have?
3. If I understand Barry Ross - who is following Weyand - strength operates by providing a ground support force NOT by applying force to the ground.
4. I have no understanding of how ground support force is increased or how much is needed or is sufficient at top speed.
I hope that I am not misrepresenting him but In summary I think Barry Ross is saying that at top speed strength does not operate by applying force to the ground but by acting as a counterforce to ground reaction forces and that movement off the ground is a spring like plyometric action, hence that which needs most attention but for which ultimately some are naturally better equipped.
@@petermercadante630 Thanks for your thoughtful stuff. Barry did a lot of concentric stuff to avoid soreness (never let today ruin tomorrow) and avoid hypertrophy (gravity is a bitch!). Increasing force into the ground comes from the whip-like tangential force (Dr. Ken Clark). It’s the elastic snap of the lower limb. That’s why I say speed is more electrical (CNS) and elastic (tendons) than it is muscular.
I really like your take on strength providing counter-action ground support. Great sprinters have less than 2 cm of collapse at top speed which requires “stiffness” which strength can improve.
There’s no question that acceleration makes the best argument for strength.
I think we agree that addressing speed solely in the weight room is a fool’s errand.
If I’m not addressing your questions, keep pressing me.
@@coachtonyholler Coach Holler- Not that you need my agreement but I am totally with you on the assertions that:
1. Acceleration makes the best argument for strength
2. Addressing speed solely in the weight room is a fool's errand.
I think having a discussion around the work of Barry Ross is interesting because he provides an approach to understanding the role of strength in sprinting based on Weyand's work. I am not promoting his views or methods just using them as a reference point.
On the practical stuff, you are right that he did emphasise concentric lifting, principally deadlifting, avoiding the eccentric and limiting volume. I believe that he was influenced by Tsatsouline in distinguishing between "myofibrillar hypertrophy" and "sarcoplasmic hypertrophy" or at least wrote about increasing "muscle density" and not size. I understand his intention to increase relative strength but in terms of muscle response to strength training I think the distinction is dubious.
Be that as it may, it is really how he describes the role of force in sprinting that is interesting for the implications about strength and strength training.
As best as I can recall he describes it as follows:
1. The runner does not control the amount of force created at ground contact -which is a function of the runners mass x gravity
2. The result of the runner's ground contact is an equal and opposite force applied by the ground (ground reaction force)
3. The runners then applies a support force to counter the ground reaction force.
4. The runner does not apply force to the ground to push off at the end of stance time.
5. Mass specfic force is the amount of support force the runner applies to the ground in relation to their mass and that dictates speed
Correct or not I can follow that, although other than "reactively" countering ground reaction forces or as you say providing "stiffness" I really do not understand how you involuntarily "apply" force or greater force in less than a millisecond. As we are agreed it is not akin to applying maximum force to a weight which might take 0.5 second to complete and in any event is a considerably slower action.
I haven't read it but maybe the explanation is somewhere within the concept of the spring like action of the legs and certainly outside of the need for strength expressed above, his views would be in line with what you say about speed being CNS/elasticity based as would his views on over distance sprinting.
@@petermercadante630STIFFNESS IN THE ANKLES is your ground support force 🫡 train the tendons that connects hips ankles and knees. Always knowing that the hip plays a crucial part in this all . That’s the kangaroo effect that springs us forward. Also GRAVITY will always play its role so why not practice more depth jump variations 👀📝 and allow gravity to take over knowing your body will REACT kNOWING you’ve been working on stability and endurance in the electrical component and tendon component of the body 🫡 I live reading yalls conversation . This was great!
It’s interesting because Hershel Walker and bo Jackson didn’t lift weights especially when they were in high school and college
Natural strength is more functional than artificial strength.
Try and come up with a workout that combines both
Combining feed the cats+mass specific force which has been on recent videos. Max speed training, then after 3x3 concentric focus lifts, trap bar, pin squat, box squat combined with 3 jumps. Rest 48 hours and train again.
I’m a big strength guy at 90kg but my sole focus is sprinting however I spend a lot of time in the gym, I know this is bad but I just don’t know what my weekly sprinting routine would look like, what are your thoughts?
For context my pb is 11.19, probably slower now as I’ve done a lot more gym work so around 11.8 maybe but I’m trying to run sub 11 for the next track season and get to 80kg
I also tend to get injured quite a bit and I believe this is due to the excess weight im carrying.
Generally I thought I would do 3 days sprinting and 3 days gym with 1 day rest but watching your videos made me realise I really need to cut back on gym work so should I do some sort of running everyday instead?
I live right next to a steep bridge so I thought a few hill sprints every morning would be a good start