Was There a Secret Traitor? - Red Dead Redemption 2
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- čas přidán 30. 03. 2023
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• WHO IS THE REAL TRAITO...
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It's 100% Jack.
Dude, i've just realized, the ripped poster Micah had of Dutch's dead or alive reward, it says 1000$ while Milton said that Arthur has a bounty of 5000 when fishing with Jack. That surely means Micah had that piece of paper way before that time, most probably before the ferry job, after which the prices on their heads jumped tremendously. If Arthur post ferry job is 5000 then Dutch must be at least 10.000. This also explains why Micah only joined the gang a few months before the beginning of the game, but yeah, he wasn't an informer from the beginning
Also, the discussion at the start with Arthur asking Dutch if the ferry job was a trap and that they were expecting the hit, is nothing more than setup for the next RDR game, i'd even go as far as to say one of the Callender boys ratted, most probably Davey since Milton heard the 'philosophy' from Mac, and Arthur seemed extremely close to Mac judging by his reaction when Milton admits 'it was more of a mercy shot' meaning that Mac refused to cooperate, plus a few other conversations about Mac. I strongly believe that Mac Callender will be the next protagonist, too much setup, while Davey was barely mentioned
No, the gang in Lakay is discovered due to Micah not Bill, that's only what the game wants us to believe at that point prior to the reveal; Micah was the first one to return to shore from the boat to Guarma, Milton said that they picked him up right after they returned so the time adds up, I'll go even further saying that Micah was the one to go to Milton being influenced by their near brush with death during the bank heist
Abigail being taken at the end was Milton's last hand to play, last chance to get Dutch, and there are two possible outcomes: he must have known by that point that John 'von winkle' was Dutch's second favorite at some point and was hoping that John will be able to influence Dutch to turn himself in to save Abigail OR he must have known that John and Dutch had a fallout so he kidnapped Abigail to force John to turn on Dutch to save her.
In any case, Abigail being taken in the first place, besides being able to slip away at the bank and besides the fact that the Pinkertons kept John alive to ensure Abigail keeps feeding them information, is the most compelling argument why she must have been an informer at some point in the game, Pinkertons being able to get close enough to her in their camp without alerting Jack or Tilly or Grimshaw to kidnap her seems impossible; most probably Abigail decided to meet Milton close to camp in secret to discuss something while all the boys were out without knowing that Milton was done talking and planned to grab her, that's the only way the Pinkertons could have managed to get her, Grimshaw and Tilly wouldn't have hesitated to shoot them on sight otherwise. The 'horrible man' after killing him has so much more meaning this way as well, Abigail having trusted and even helped Milton after which he turned on her and tried to use her
Dude, something else, in Lakay after returning from Guarma in the cutscene, that was the first direct interaction between Micah and Abigail 'cheerful nymph of the prairie' and 'oh sure micah, my heart jump with joy when i set my eyes on you' it felt strange at the time but i just brushed it off. Why would Micah act so casual with Abigail all of a sudden? If Micah was taken by the Pinkertons right as he arrived (if he went right to them at that moment to inform them about their whereabouts) and the Pinkertons would have told Micah about Abigail informing that would surely explain the familiarity and the casual approach Micah had during that moment, something like 'ooh, i know something about you, we are the same you and me' feeling more comfortable towards her. Also before the final train raid Micah saying "[abigail] all packed up and ready to go" right before Abigail was snatched by the Pinkertons as he was implying something, how could've Micah know? Milton must have known about Abigail's plan to bail on Dutch after that final job and Milton must have told Micah, that might be the reason why Micah knew. I'd go as far as to say that Milton promised to help Abigail and Jack leave after getting rid of Dutch during the train job but as Dutch once again escaped, when Milton met with Abigail as planned to help her escape with Jack, Milton decided to grab her instead to use her in order to get Dutch.
Yoo I was playing online have been since it came out I'm like a lvl 570 but I was in camp yesterday and was petting my dog in camp and heard Cripps say hopefully by November 2 that dog doesn't turn and tear your face off I recorded it to just thought Id say I think a undead nightmare 2 is coming????
You have seriously underestimated molly
He was a traitor from the beginning or from the time he got arrested and the pinkerton offered him his freedom to give up the gang and duch and he played with moly head to take the light out of him and they won’t find that he was a traitor, he knew morgen got really close and he knows moly’s will do it since duch wasn’t nice to her and she was in love with him , but his plan didn’t go well so he played both sides so he can manipulate duch and duch can tell him where is the money
If Abigail had been the rat, I just don't see Milton passing up the opportunity to throw her under the bus in that moment, and laugh at the fact that Arthur came to rescue her
And she was the one who shot Milton if she was the rat she could've just shot Arthur and tried to make a deal
Nah more like shutting up milton b4 he say any more covering her track
@@dallasharlem1385 dude, milton was about to shoot arthur in the face. he was done talking by the time abigail even broke free.
@@isaiahduncan7879I think it's explained in the video how Milton actually didn't show any concerns for Abigail and Jack's life during the shootout in Lacay which makes all the deals she made with Milton completely void. So by the end of the chapter 6 when she was captured, it's possible that she stopped ratting and it's very likely that she shot Milton in retaliation for breaking his promise. It may also be her own redemption. I don't think she was actually a rat but if there's a second rat, Abigail is the prime suspect.
I feel like milton would have said someone like Micah to break the group down, instead of revealing it to be abigail.
its obviously gavin, his disappearing abilities are well suited for spying jobs.
By God, you may be right.
I think it was the channel catfish. It killed Jeremy Gill and ratted the gang out to cover its tracks.
Or Cain the dog. Rather convinent that some random dog just suddenly shows up a few missions after Arthur helps with the moonshine stils but before Jack is taken by the braithwait/pinkertons and yet is no where to be found in chapter 6.
Anyone even know when he left or what actually happened to him?
@@mrchenz1371He was a 10 foot British circus guy, but he left due to bullying, sadly he was cut from the game.
I've just noticed that in the character art portrait for Micah, he's holding his two revolvers up and crossing his arms. He is literally double-crossing
If it was a double cross wouldn’t they have to cross twice?
@@Lolpy. double revolver and crossed = double cross
What's a single cross then?
@@elchewbacco pledge of allegiance
And it's his double action revolvers as well...
One point I'd like to mention is the fact that Arthur's bounty is worth $5000 dollars in chapter 2. Since the Pinkertons say that they want Dutch over Arthur, and that Dutch is obviously a more valuable target, this should mean that the bounty on Dutch's head must be more than $5000. In the same chapter however, as shown in this video, the wanted poster found at Micah's camp is worth only $1000, meaning this must be an old wanted poster for Dutch. Seems a little suspicious that Micah would have a wanted poster of Dutch which is clearly from an earlier time when the bounty on his head was much less. Obviously he could have found an old wanted poster somewhere, but why would this be left in the game? Maybe Micah had been holding on to this for a while, hinting that maybe he had been working against the gang for much longer than we think.
Yes. Even if it was a local bounty from only one town or state, it shows that Micah knew very well who Dutch was and may have even been stalking him...which is why I think Micah is the only gang member who saved Dutch's life, when all the others were saved BY Dutch. I'm pretty sure Micah set up the situation to gain Dutch's favor and infiltrate his gang... just to rob the ferry at Blackwater.
Before launch Rockstar posted a news slip of Dutch right after the ferry heist, I’ll try to find it and see if it mentions a bounty
Edit: it doesn’t mention a bounty but was canonically released by the pinkertons right after the ferry heist where it’s believed he stole 150k so raising his bounty to over 5k after the heist is not unreasonable
Good observation
Would also be possible to work in favor of Dutch keeping him from getting captured to raise the bounty and when it’s high enough turn him in
@@malena5026 That also seems quite plausable.
I think Hosea might have sacrificed himself to get Abigail out of the situation.
This does make sense since Hosea and Dutch are wanted more than Abigail
I mean him and Abigail got cornered and he helped her get away before being captured and killed at the bank
You make an amazing point.
I think that scene is supposed to represent how Agent Ross learned from Milton to not shoot someone in the back, it doesn't look good on paper.
@@theforefathersyoutubeschan6906love this idea
I never even thought about how Micah yells Arthur’s name in strawberry so much.
It's done for a reason... it establishes a large bounty (that you're not really supposed to pay off), and therefore completely blocks off all passages back to the west, explaining why Dutch thought they had to keep moving further east. Like he said in the video, Arthur was well known as a member of the gang, so if he's wanted in all of West Elizabeth it prevents the whole gang from going there.
@@livewire2759 Or other missions and around camp Micah always refers to Arthur by his name, last name or a nickname. Same for pretty much all the other members.
I always wondered why my bounties were so high constantly. Even though I made an effort to keep my face covered with the mask. Figured it was just bad game design. I am on my second playthrough. Maybe I'll find more instances where the gang is out there yelling Arthur's name during important criminal acts. Lol.
@@livewire2759 put a mask on and mine was 60$
@@w4tt58 Wearing a mask makes no difference during that mission. The only way to reduce the bounty is to shoot as few people as possible. Every time you shoot someone, the bounty increases... oh, and if you break the wall out instead of shooting the sheriff and his deputies (even though you have to shoot them during the gunfight anyway), your bounty won't be as bad either, but that's how most people do it anyway.
It's tragic that Molly died for literally nothing and did not even get a proper burial. And also the fact that the Pinkertons tried to squeeze information from her but still said nothing proves that she was always loyal to Dutch even after he treated her like a pet he no longer wanted. :(
Twórcy mieli zrobić dla niej grób który znajdować miał się na wzgórzu na wschód od obozu w beaver hollow i można go wywołać modami (translate)
Yup. I'm also 100% sure that her disdain for the group and calling them "parasites" in her note probably comes from stuff Dutch himself told her.
I thought it was one of the weaker aspects of the story not to explain why she pretended to be a rat
Yeah but it’s just Molly who cares about her.
@@brettjohnson536 I don't know , I feel like they made it pretty obvious as to why she said that. She was being ignored by Dutch, feeling like he threw her away after she gave up her whole life to be with him (He was also pretty obvious and weird around Mary Beth), in a moment of being drunk she just said something that she knew would get his attention - say she was the rat, even though she wasn't.
15:39 Pearson smiled at a picture of the gang he hanged in his store in the epilogue. The guy clearly loved them.
I think Molly just wanted to hurt Dutch, as the chapters go on, he neglects her a lot and in her eyes that’s a betrayal. So either she did tell the Pinkertons, or she said that she did just to try and mess with him.. it’s not an uncommon tactic for people who are hurt in relationships… ehhh that’s just my opinion though.
Milton literally said she didn’t
@@Mqmn are you fr going to take *milton's* word?
@@Mqmn I said maybe she did or maybe she didn’t. Both points make sense. If she didn’t rat on them, then she said what she said to hurt Dutch, if she did rat on them, she was “getting her own back”. Like I said, Dutch’s neglect was a betrayal to her.
She definitely didn't snitch but she knew Dutch's weakness. She used it to hurt him in a drunken stupor not realizing it was going to be Ms. Grimshaw rearranging her guts, not Dutch.
She’s literally about to tell you she did something talking about how Dutch goes on about loyalty etc, before you’re interrupted by other gang members to go on a mission
There is a wanted poster clipping for Dutch that can be found in Micah's campsite near Strawberry. Micah's MO was to infiltrate a gang, convince the leader to perform crimes that could raise the price on his head as a result, then either inform the police about the upcoming the robbery, or turn him in after kicking the rest of the gang out. This seems to be the case when he went and murdered a couple from a previous gang he worked with in the jailbreak, didn't want Arthur to know.
Then why would he establish a much larger gang with Dutch? It seems pretty obvious to me that Micah was just out for the fun and the glory of it all.
@@threemar3 so Micah established that gang on his own with Joe and Cleet, not with Dutch’s involvement whatsoever. Micah reveals that Dutch only showed up recently when he says “all manner of folk paying a social call” to John and Sadie. Dutch was only there to eventually kill Micah.
@@threemar3 it would make sense if micah was greedy.
he isn't completly dumb.
Join a gang with a high bounty criminal.
Push up that bounty by convinving said high bounty criminal to do more shit and louder.
Rat him out/turn him in when he reached over 10x the original bounty and collect now even higher bounty.
I could see micahs greedy ass thinking like that at some point. Since he seems to think he is untouchable in the way he acts.
Alright but if this is micahs big plan is to turn him in then why didnt he do it in the epilogue when it was just the two of them?
@@dr.cheese6592
Because Dutch wasn't there long.
Micah said it himself "got a lot of visitors today"
He wasn't working with Dutch, Dutch literally just showed up there to shoot Micah.
I think Agent Milton was far more honorable than you give him credit for. He offered Arthur his freedom in exchange for Dutch when he could have simply ambushed and arrested Arthur and tortured the information out of him or just killed him, he discovered the gang’s location in chapter three and instead of swooping down with his army of agents and slaughtering everyone he offers them amnesty in exchange for Dutch alone. These are vicious killers responsible for the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people yet Milton gave them a chance (two in Arthur’s case) and only actually tries to kill them after they refused him and killed many more people. His actions in later chapters may have been brutal but the Van Der Linde gang really did necessitate it.
I can’t forgive him for Hosea though
@@thenewlbjYou have to look at it from the inverted perspective. You’re playing the game as someone apart of a criminal outlaw gang of murderous thieves. Milton is the good guy. Hosea was going to get the rope lawfully by the end of the day ether way.
Shut up Micah
Milton's offer to Arthur was as genuine as Ross's offer to John. Milton proved that when he murdered Hosea. Hosea was caught and helpless, if Milton was honorable in the slightest he would've simply sent Hosea to prison.
Milton is worse than anyone in the Van Der Linde gang, he's the type of criminal who joins law enforcement in order to legally kill and exercise his urge for cruelty.
Exactly my thoughts. Milton offered notorious murders amnesty and even a chance to blend back in to society. If anything, he's the good guy by comparison.
I’m pretty sure Abigail is asking “what’s wrong?” After Arthur comes back from fishing because she can see his face is different. Ya know body language cues, especially considering they’ve known each other for a while.
I have a hard time believing that Abigail was the traitor from the beginning. As much as I find the way you laid down the theory very interesting, by sticking around in camp and watching the interactions its clear that Abigail cares for the rest of the gang. Even though her loyalties lie with Jack and John, I don't think she'd willingly set the law on people she lived with and confided in regularly around camp.
As a whole, I definitely think theres a stronger case for the "traitor" to be Dutch himself, with the way he constantly underestimates the law around them and always aims for the largest scales, most dramatic and risky jobs ever, not to mention largely overestimating how low profile they are at any given time. He thinks there's a traitor because he can't admit to himself or to others that any of his actions were a mistake.
Yeah Abigail had nothing to do with being a traitor.. her and john were real and loyal and found out who was corrupted later on...
it was Jack, the true mastermind of the series
@Cheef Queef Sorry to disappoint you, but my sister (aka beautiful wife god bless her soul) works at Red Dead Redemption games. Its already leaked who the traitor is (and if you paid ANY attention at all you'd obviously see who it was.) It was the one and only Uncle. It's obvious that he was just FAKING his lumbago. Yes I know, that's a lot to take in. But don't trust the old man on your next playthrough. Keep an eye on him.
This is how reasonable people feel about the rabid Abigail theory
that and how does she get messages out. She cant read or write Hosea is trying to help her but she never got the hang of it unlike Jake does. she also almost never leaves the camp shes always there. she only see her leave during the escape from the gang and the getting captured part.
The one sticking point that always gets me when we start to theorise about whether or not anyone else other than Micah is the rat is that Milton was convinced Arthur was going to die by that point, I think it's much more likely he would want Arthur to die in that moment knowing who the rat was but wasn't in a position to do anything about it, rather than arbitrarily tell him a lie. (Obviously he made a mistake with assuming Arthur wasn't going to be able to do anything in that moment). Not to mention he probably didn't expect Abigail to break free either.
Exact.
or flip slide you could argue that he told Arthur that Micah was the rat as a way of ensuring, that if Arthur some how got out alive, the gang would still get divided and fall. I dunno just taking the story at face value just doesn’t sit right with me. Micah being the rat feels too obvious.
I'd argue it could have been part of a greater plan by him.
"(Loudly so sadie and abigail hear)Hey Arthur micah's a rat!"
"Pkow."
"Great thats sorted.(steps into other room)."
"Hey generic guard, free our prisoners but pretend you're busting them out instead of simply letting them leave."
(Abigail and sadie get back to camp) "hey everyone micah's a rat!"
@@threemiceinajacket You're thinking too deep about this. Milton wasn't out here playing some Death Note 6D chess game, he was about to get what he wanted, to see Arthur Morgan die and got cocky. The idea you suggest would take an insane amount of thought for something that'd happen AFTER his death.
@@threemiceinajacket what do you mean by "too obvious"
I've played through the game 3x at this point, and while the idea of another informant is fun, it's never really held much water for me--especially the Abigail theory.
For myself, I've always felt like a lot of the gangs misfortune simply came from time catching up to them. Police getting better, cities getting larger, and the gang themselves (outside of Arthur) not having enough self-awareness to realize that outsmarting the system is beyond their methods at this point. Unable to give up the life, the power, the supposed freedom, Dutch keeps thinking he's one step ahead when he's really 10 steps behind.
You've got a gang of outlaws, half of them sloppy drunks who rarely had a plan beyond shooting their way out. The trail was there for anyone who wanted to find it, as shown in the credits. Bill, Uncle, Micah, Strauss, Davey, Mac, Sean, all sloppy gunslingers leaving a trail of destruction and carnage everywhere they go. It was only a matter of time.
That's exactly my theory. Even Arthur admits times are changing and folks don't want guys like them anymore and with Dutch being wanted pretty much everywhere somebody is bound to recognize him or at least other gang members where they could report them to the police then pass on that information to the Pinkertons.
@@bojanglesthewizard8875my thoughts exactly thank you for putting it that way I’m pretty bad with words lmao. Also when Arthur takes Jack fishing Milton tells Arthur his bounty is $5,000 that’s $190,778.56 when you add in inflation I could only imagine what Dutchs bounty was that poster will be everywhere especially in the Bigger cities
What you said isn't a theory. What you said is what we watched. You've literally explained the entire theme of the game. It was there right in front of us yet people like to grasp at straws.
Strauss was a gunslinger?
Finishing my tenth playthrough and it makes considerable more sense for Abigail to be the rat than Micah. Either that, or they are both rats. The fan theory of Micah being the rat doesn't hold too much water.
The wanted poster in Micah's camp just confirms it for me: even if it was nothing more than a Plan B, Micah was always toying with the idea on turning Dutch in for his own amnesty, he was just hoping to score the Blackwater money first (as evidenced at Horseshoe Overlook by Micah asking Dutch to tell him the location of the stash so he could go "retrieve it").
Right idk how people say Micah was only planning to turn on them later in the game
Hosea spends much of his camp interactions trying to convince various gang members (nearly all of them, from what I’ve seen) that they should consider life outside of the gang. If the theory that he is ill and at the end of his life is correct, then I would imagine that knowledge would spur him to right whatever wrongs he could, not unlike Arthur. I see a lot of parallels between the two characters, actually. They both were fully committed to the gang, and Dutch’s ideals, until it became undeniably clear that Dutch himself wasn’t prioritizing the gang, or even his own ideals.
All of this to say, I don’t think Hosea was a ‘rat’, per se, but I would argue he was a large part of the unraveling of the group-if only for their own good.
Arthur went from wanting to be acknowledged and respected by Dutch to being just like hosea its shows who really left an impact in his life I always considered hosea to be the gangs Dad
I don’t want to really say Hosea was the “mom” of the two because Hosea is a real man in his own right. However he was the far more nurturing of the two.
@@FormerGovernmentHumanHosea is much more of a man than Dutch, even if Dutch is obviously bigger and physically stronger than Hosea
I think his illness is almost confirmed from the fishing mission you do with Dutch, however, I love you points if the parallels and I think that another spin on it could be that Dutch and Hosea are the polar opposites of Arthur’s personality. Dutch is the purpose driven man who justified all actions for the betterment of his group (which we see in the early chapters with Arthur) Hosea is the kind nurturing personality Arthur becomes as the story progresses
When they’re going to Horseshoe from Colter, Dutch even gives Hosea and Arthur their own wagon so they can “talks about the good ol’ days before Dutch went crazy” or something along those lines as Dutch puts it.
My bets are on Jack. I noticed he never did anything around the camp and was never around when shit went down
So true
When the Pinkertons came to camp in Chapter 3, where was he
@@cutecat3134 Jack is with Angelo Bronte after being send off by Mrs. Braithwaite.
@@luishernandezsoto that's just what he wants us to think for his cover
@@dr.bright6272 Explain why Dutch, Arthur and John rescue him in Chapter 4 then if it's just a coverup?
People forget that Milton is incredibly intelligent and calculating, and that he is speaking not just in front of Arthur, but in front of Abigail who would leave and tell the group, even if Arthur died. That would split the group.
Honestly, I think there is no rat. Just a group torn apart by paranoia and stress, trying to live a life that isn't possible with the changing times.
Possibly. But why would Micah keep calling Arthur and John traitors in the last mission but then refer to himself as a „survivor“ and never calling Arthur a traitor without anybody else around?
I‘m pretty sure that there was only one rat and that rat was Micah
@@davidschneider9145
It could just as easily have the meaning of “I’m not a rat. I’m just a survivor, that’s all that I’ve done.”
Actually not just Abigail, Sadie was also there on the ground.
But I don't think he would have set them free, Milton was out to snatch any member and have them taken care of at that point. He only wanted them alive for information on the gang, then disposing of them when they either don't talk or aren't needed.
One thing that contradicts what I said is that they let Molly go after she allegedly didn't say anything. Maybe because she didn't really do much criminal activity so they couldn't pin her for anything? But Abigail also didn't do any criminal activity either. We don't really know when Molly was in custody so it could have been earlier in the story, also weird that no one knew that she was got unless it just wasn't mentioned or i'm forgetting.
Honestly this whole situation is a mess and rockstars vagueness on certain parts really doesn't help.
So it's the "paranoia" that led to the cops knowing the gang would rob the train? It was stress that led to Milton knowing exactly where Arthur was fishing? Are you really that dumb?
@@thatoneannoyingtornadosire8755 here's a question no one considers, does Milton know Molly is even dead? If he doesn't what sense does it make giving her up as the rat if she is in that moment and kill their lead for no reason when the gang is still actively causing issues?
I remember Micah claiming there was a rat *during* one of the heists that went wrong. Right after Hosea is shot during the Saint Denis heist and the gang is running across the rooftops, Micah says there is a rat, and I believe even during the Rhodes heist shootout he says “someone talked!”
I think it’s pretty obvious he is trying to steer the attention away from himself, which means he was the rat even before the gang fled to Guarma.
The Rhodes one was all on Bill because he blabbed while drinking
He is self reporting, *and it's working!*
He wasn't the rat before Guarma. Milton even states that and why would Micah rat out the gang, when he knows he needs them to get his share from Blackwater, the main thing that drives him on? Think before you puke out shit like that.
There was another rat and it's Abigail. It so painfuly obvious, it's comical to see fangirls throw tantrums because women can't be bad, lol
Who was the only person who knew where Arthur was fishing and then conveniently, Milton shows up with his offer? Abigail
Who was one of the few people, that knew about Johns plan to rob the train? Abigail (and the entire gang comments that they were set up, because the cops instantly showed up)
Who was the person to get out of Saint Denis unharmed, while the cops try to murder the gang? Abigail
Who was the one person in the gang to constantly bitch about the lifestyle, about wanting to get away from them? Abigail
She had so many reasons to throw them under the bus.
And she did.
Could be also simple mindtricks. A heist goes wrong? - seed paranoia and divide the gang. Micah's goal was to distance Dutch from the loyal longtime members so he can take the place and further influence the gang via Dutch to his advantage.
@@ShadowAngel-lt8nw Abigail is in no fucking way the rat. I'll start first with the meeting between Milton and Arthur at the river since it's the easiest to debunk. Why in God's green fucking Earth would you send your 4 year old son down to the river with a man who's about to get confronted by Pinkerton that could very well easily turn into a shootout (it very nearly did too as you can see Arthur momentarily reach for his holster after Milton reveals Macs execution.) I also believe that fizhy pointing out Abigails concern with Arthur immediately after to be a massive cop-out, she has interacted and been around Arthur for fucking years prior to this, she would be well able to read Arthur's body language to tell that something was wrong.
Secondly in regards to the train heist, I believe that was just plain old bad luck, perhaps another patrol was sent out? The authorities would've known that a train with that many wealthy passengers goi g through scarlet meadows would be prime targets for bandits, and could've planned appropriately.
Another thing is that I don't believe Abigail would be willing to rat out the gang, even for herself because she cares about several of the gang members with her interactions around camp (Mary, Tilly, Arthur, Hosea, etc) proving that. And I don't think she'd risk her life and the other gang members lives to turn Dutch in, she would've known about Milton's threat to storm the camp and kill everybody, (and I'm sure he'd live up to that especially after lakay,) and would've known the risks to continue working with the Pinkertons.
Abigail being worried about the safety of her husband and child isn't exactly evidence that proves she's a rat... Hosea clearly has misgivings about the direction the gang was going as is Arthur after chapter 4, and if Abigail really was committed to leaving gsne easily fucking could've. We know Hosea left the gang for a short time with his wife and Trewlawny is allowed to come and go as he pleases, the only time leaving was shown to be disallowed was after Dutch's mental break on Guarma.
Please think before you start talking shit you absolute fucking bellend.
It's Pearson.
He got tired of arthur calling him a fat walrus who should of stayed at sea everyday
This is why I love this story, I believe rockstar purposefully left the story open ended, to let people come up with their own conclusions. Everything from the rats, to dutch and his head injury, there is no right answer to what happens.
They give all the pieces to the puzzle, and they all fit, yet they don't. It's perfect.
Exactly
That’s what I think is the right answer. I personally think Molly didn’t rat but Micah and Abigail did. But you know what? I cannot prove any of it, even for Micah, it is just implied STRONGLY. They have done a perfect job at making us paranoid without any answers, like Dutch, and at the same time realizing it doesn’t even matter because like Arthur said, their time has past. There is no true answer, we will never know, and we don’t need to to understand the story.
Upon replaying the game, I have found a few moments that could point to Micah being the rat since the beginning. There are plenty of moments even before Guarma where Micah both says and does very questionable things that may not simply be his short temper and hot-headedness.
Way back in chapter 2, In the mission “An American Pastoral Scene,” Arthur asks Micah how he ended up so far west of Horseshoe Overlook while scouting with Lenny. Micah replies with the vague answer “You know how it is, a few loose ends. Drink here, drink there.” When Arthur asks him “What loose ends?” Micah replies very evasively, “Nothing that concerns you.” And while this may just be Micah not wanting to explain himself to Arthur, it very well could be that these “loose ends” are Micah giving hints to the law about where the gang is hiding out. It could also explain how Milton was able to find Arthur so easily while he was fishing with Jack, despite not knowing exactly where the gang is camped up in, as Micah himself hadn’t seen the camp yet either.
On top of that, at the end of chapter two, in the mission “A Strange Kindness,” the gang flees Horseshoe Overlook and begins searching for a new camp. Micah suggests they hold up in Dewberry Creek, but upon arriving, Charles notes that “It seems very open,” to which Arthur agrees, adding “Yeah, it does. Ain’t sure it’d be best in the rain, neither.” Obviously, with the gang wanting to lie low and out of the open, it would make no sense for Micah to recommend they stay somewhere so easy to find.
Finally, in the mission “Blessed Are the Peacemakers,” Micah informs Arthur and Dutch about a parlay Colm O’Driscoll wants to make with Dutch. Despite this being an obvious setup, Micah seems quite insistent upon going along with it. His reasoning for putting Arthur and Dutch’s heads on the line is that he “cares too much.” However, this “parlay” leads to Arthur’s capture and the O’Driscolls planning to set the law on Dutch when he inevitably came to rescue Arthur. Whether Micah knew this was a plan involving the law isn’t guaranteed, but Micah’s insistence is suspicious.
These points, along with the fact that the Pinkertons were able to find out about the Saint Denis bank robbery, make me believe that it is very possible that Micah was the true rat from the beginning.
As for Milton saying Micah was picked up AFTER Guarma, I also believe that could be true. I think that maybe Micah wasn’t outright telling the Pinkertons information, but rather, he was leaving little breadcrumbs for them to find the gang and it was only after Guarma that the Pinkertons officially picked him up and used him as an informant.
While I agree with the majority of your points I do believe that Micah ending up in strawberry, RIGHT where his former friend lived and had his guns is no coincidence, it’s likely he was drinking his way down with Lenny to get his guns and ended up getting arrested on accident because we didn’t know about strawberry being a dry county.
Micah being the rat just doesn't work. We can assume his motivations are based entirely on fun, fame, and stealing based on all of his actiosn throughout the game. If he wanted to rat Dutch out, it seems more likely he'd jsut cliam the bounty. But he never does. Instead, Micah establishes a large gang with the help of Dutch in the epilogue.
@@threemar3 Micah’s main goal throughout the gang is to get the Blackwater money for himself. The entire reason he rats out the gang in the first place is to cause enough distrust among the gang so that he can slip in and manipulate Dutch into returning to Blackwater, so it wouldn’t be too far fetched for him to have done it from the start.
The thing is with the O’Driscoll parlay, it was Pearson that brings it up first. Saying how he met some O’Driscoll boys and talks about that, it would make sense if Micah was the one who bring it up but it was Pearson. Now unless Pearson has some sort of personal Vendetta againts Arthur or Micah force him to do it then who knows
@@gee_kaz but I feel it’s pretty clear that Micah encouraged the Pearson to even mention the parlay to Dutch, in addition he was the one to say that Arthur should watch them from the rock.
Abigail
- escaped Saint Denise while Hosea got caught
- John was held prisoner, not hanged like they would have. Probably to keep her loyalty like they did John in RDR1
- asks Arthur to take Jack fishing where Ross and Milton find him
The idea of Abigail selling out the gang to try and keep Jack safe is a great twist I think. Explains how the Pinkerton's were on their tails immediately after Blackwater. The idea they found John became of her is poetic AF too
good theory but if she was a rat, why was she desperate to get John back to Prison over "talk of hanging him" rather than sabotage the gang itself
They were going to hang John though
Lies oliver Williams is the rat
@@ilikepigeons6101 Save John then rat out the gang and leave?
@@ilikepigeons6101 They probably decided to hang John anyway when he refused to talk about the gang, leading Abigail to stop helping the Pinkertons
Just realized something about Micah. When he and Arthur rob that stage coach that was supposed to be going to strawberry they get jumped by o’driscols on a route that they would have taken to get back to camp. Not a route that the stage would have been on towards strawberry. Micah even says that the o’driscols have been robbing the wagon on the regular. It’s weird that the o’driscols would have changed their ambush spot to a place that they would not have found the wagon on. Maybe Micah had a deal with the o’driscols to try to kill Arthur or another gang member while they were taking it back to camp.
I feel like that’s just a plot hole, Micah would of shot him dead in his back right there if he intended to kill him
What about that meet-up with Colm o'driscoll/Micah, Arthur, Dutch to "Make Peace" It seemed so weird that the O'driscoll's knew where he'd be..
@@laairothen maybe adjust it to capture. After all Micah did set up the time Arthur got captured
Good point, but I don't think they actually altered the route in anyway. Its entirely possible, that the stagecoach was taking the route along the river down to Riggs Station before heading back up to Strawberry. There is a stagecoach station there too. In that case, the ambush happens along that route, at the river crossing that Arthur and Micah were going to use to deviate from the standard route going south. Remember that the O'Driscolls used a tree to bar the way south and force the stagecoach into the river where they ambushed it. Hence I don't think that there is more to that really. It just happened that Arthur and Micah managed to rob the stagecoach before the O'Driscolls did, and ended up getting robbed themselves.
I got the feeling that Micah could have ratted the gang out earlier to one of the sheriff's which may not have passed it along to the Pinkertons. Micah seemed reckless but always seemed to push Dutch into fighting. If anyone knows Dutch, they know he will usually be the first into battle, so maybe he was hoping Dutch would get arrested or killed and then he could take everything for himself or take over the group
The case for Abigail is pretty convincing, but only after Jack was kidnapped. I cannot for a second believe she would set up that meeting with the Pinkertons on the fishing trip. If her goal is protecting Jack, this would be sending him directly in the harm's way, I don't think any mother would ever send her child in the middle of two opposing factions in hope they won't killed each other when the child is there. That seems incredibly reckless.
While im not convinced abigail would rat out the gang due to her actually liking some of the gang members e.g. hosea and arthur, I love the idea of her having her own 'redemption' moment by killing milton after her 'mistake' of ratting out the gang
I wonder, since they never really explain why Abigail was the only one taken, if maybe she tried to make a deal at that point, to save herself and Jack, only to have Milton tie her up and use her for "bait" anyway... So maybe she gets her own redemption moment even though she didn't actually rat on the gang...
@@livewire2759 her Tilly and jack were the only ones left at the camp Tilly saw the Pinkertons and got jack out of there and Abigail was captured
Lmao you think that's redemption? That was her covering her own ass in case Milton wanted to spill the beans to Arthur and Sadie who the real rat was. You don't find it the least bit conspicuous that she got a clean shot to his head when shooting him anywhere else would allow him to speak? She's not exactly a gunslinger, she had to set that shot up as Milton is milliseconds away from killing Arthur.
@@snodog00with how close they were a headshot would be the most effective way to eliminate him in my eyes
@@snodog00wow that is such a reach
Eh, I just think that the massive amounts of murder from all their crimes was enough to draw the law like mosquito to mammals.
No need for a second traitor. Plus Molly was just coming off the end of being drunk when she confessed. So I don't think she knew what she was saying.
There's an old saying... so old it's in latin... "Vino Veritas"... in wine (alcohol) there is truth... People are more honest when they're drunk.
@@livewire2759 No.
@@livewire2759 More impulsive. That might lead to honesty, can also end with people saying shit that they don’t mean but aren’t thinking clearly.
@@thegreenjackal
That's why I think Molly wasn't a traitor. We don't know enough about it to say for sure. But given what Milton states and how Molly was acting? I think she went drinking after they let her go.
People say Micah was the bad guy but he turned a gang of murderers over to the authorities
The other thing with Dutch that still bothers me is he already knew who Milton and Ross were when Arthur goes to tell him about them after fishing with Jack. He tells Arthur Ross' name when Arthur can't remember it, is completely unsurprised that they spoke to Arthur and asks Arthur why he didn't take the deal Milton offered him
Nah they just messed up with the audio/timing in that scene. It was actually Arthur that said Ross.
Dutch doesn't mention Ross's name... watch that scene again, Arthur remembers it on his own... and Dutch is clearly just joking when he asks Arthur why he didn't take the deal.
You boys need to rewatch that scene yourselves, there's no audio mess up or timing issue and it wasn't delivered as a joke, though Arthur thinks it is one.
I'm not suggesting Dutch was working with the Pinkerton's or necessarily spoke to them himself, but someone did and Dutch knew about it before they spoke to Arthur
@@themightymash1 You clearly don't "get" dry humor... Dutch was joking... and again, Arthur said Ross's name, not Dutch.
@@livewire2759 czcams.com/video/CtnvEK1OnwQ/video.html
Though I'll accept that wether or not Dutch was joking is subjective
“YOU TOLD ON ME”
-Kid in preschool when someone tells on him for stealing crayons
I don't think that Abigail was a rat. If she wanted to leave with Jack and John, she could have just left the gang. They wouldn't hunt her down as we know. Even with Jack alone, she would have found a job (as we know). It's not that she HAD to rat on the gang. That were too many risks for her and her son.
its weird hwo she stange all of sudden got away in saint denis
@@tammykolu1242 they could have easily thought she was some random women though and not given her a second thought
It’s literally not weird or strange at all. She got away in Saint Denis for the same exact reason why Milton got his brains blown out; she wasn’t perceived as a threat, most likely due to her being a woman or because she wasn’t one of the “dangerous” members in Dutch, Arthur, Micah etc. A great example of this is Milton turning his back on her to start a 15 minute dialogue with Arthur. He completely drops his guard and pays for that decision with his brains being forcibly evicted from his skull.
That’s precisely why. It’s honestly incredible that people don’t get something so blatantly obvious and simple.
@@pugachevskobra5636 Thank you 🙏🏻
Abigail literally says she’s afraid of the Pinkertons in the clip after ~19:00. She wouldn’t go to them. She’s one of the most loyal in the gang - to several other members if not to Dutch himself. (And the game has an actual rat run through Micah’s camp at the end to telegraph exactly who is what to each other; only Micah gets that treatment). I think Dutch accusing Abigail is part of his descent to madness - accusing John and eventually Arthur as well
Who’s to say it wasnt an act?
@@elitealex8985 And who's to say it was? Fact is, that she was afraid of the Pinkertons and that's all we know so far.
It’s Pearson
I don't think Abigail would plan for the Pinkertons to show up while jack is with arthur. She's doing everything for jack's safety, after all she wouldn't have worked with the Pinkertons for long enough to trust them with her sons life. Arthur had a shotgun aimed at his head, they could have just shot him and taken jack hostage.
But I would like to add that she did know where the gangs gold was hidden, so surely she was at least looking for a way out, who knows how far she went
I think it would have been after Jack got kidnapped. Since she would have been thinking that this is the final straw and she just wants Jack to be safe
It's also intersting that at the time of Abigail shooting Milton she already thought John was dead, didn't she? So maybe she thought the deal didn't matter anymore because she was alot less known than John and probably assumed she could just disappear with Jack. Especially after offing one of the few people that know her.
🥱🥱🥱🥱u don't with this bs theory of yours
My belief is that there was no rat in between the blackwater ferry heist and guarma, the gang was just sloppy and arthur mentioned in his journal that they were camping just outside of blackwater, who's to say someone didn't get concerned by a massive group of people camping just outside the town? and the gang wasn't exactly quiet after that heist went wrong, robbing, killing, and fighting across the various states isn't lying low and that's why they constantly had bad luck.
Micah was a rat lmao he started to eat everyone out after guarma
not only constantly robbing and killing, but the last mission in chapter one is robbing a train, a whole ass train, either it was cornwalls or not that wouldn’t go unnoticed especially since charles bill arthur and jaiver have a bar fight in strawberry right after, that’s two trails in an hour and 30 mins of gameplay (if u skip all the cutscenes and know where to go)
It would also make sense that Micah wasn’t the rat until after Guarma. He may have been working against the gang from day one, but he seems to have an extremely limited interaction with law enforcement and Pinkertons until chapter 6. That being said, Micah is definitely the catalyst to the gang’s downfall. All of his ideas blow up in the gang’s face and Micah doesn’t seem to care. The only reason he isn’t kicked out or shot is because Dutch vouches for him constantly…and Micah knows it. However, tearing the gang apart does benefit Micah even if he wasn’t the rat. He is able to worm his way into Dutch’s ear, prompting the once principled leader astray before he could even realize it. Hell, I doubt Micah even wanted to turn Dutch or the gang into the Pinkertons, only wanting to cause chaos so he could manipulate Dutch to his own ends. I found it immensely satisfying that Dutch realized, in some small part, that Micah did all this to the gang and fires the first shot of revenge. Micah is betrayed by the very person he tried to manipulate.
I don’t think it’s likely but it’s definitely possible that Abigail is the rat. She loved Hosea she wouldn’t get him killed like that same with Arthur and Milton doesn’t even know johns name so Abigail didn’t say she needed John alive and seems to care for him
I'm quite certain that Hosea sacrificed himself so she could escape. He never expected Milton to shoot him in cold blood since he was a lawman...
@@livewire2759 yeah that’s what I thought too
@@livewire2759 Even then, if Abigail was the rat, she would have 100% made some insurance for Hosea as well, considering he was like a father to her. So Milton shooting Hosea in cold blood, with Abigail being the rat, makes no sense, since that would mean they potentially lose their rat.
@@nickdentoom1173 Yeah, that's a good point... I don't think Abigail was the rat at all, and I never did for many reasons, so there's another one to add... but I still think Hosea sacrificed himself so Abigail wouldn't get arrested.
I personally think that amidst all the plans going wrong, Dutch’s hubris got in the way and made him think “there’s a rat” and not, “I’m being reckless”. Hes got too much pride to admit he was wrong, even to himself. Micah saw through that and tried to save himself, making Dutch get more reckless and telling the law on him, because if dutch found out that Micah was the rat, with a fully together gang, he’d be toast.
This. When I was in chapter 3, in Rhodes, I knew that the Greys where already onto them. Literally the first mission at Calliga hall, Beau calls him out immediately. If Beau, someone who is not involved within the family business too much can see through Arthur and the other "useful yankees" (As he puts it) no way the rest of the family doesn't knows. Even Trelawny says this to Arthur. And its not just Dutch to blame, Hosea too.
I believe the bounty of Dutch that Micah had proves that he was trying to get Dutch since before meeting with him; The bounty was 1,000 dollars, but Dutch was probably much more valuable than that, since Arthur alone was 5k. Dutch's bounty was probably an old one that put Micah on the trails of Dutch, Micah discovered the gang and tried to gain access to it, when he was about to make his move someone tried to kill Dutch and he saved his life so HE could get the bounty, but the circumstances were dire and he thought "maybe I could score some money with those dudes before I turn them in to the law".
Just imagine how brilliant it would be for Micah to get the bounty each gang member, one by one before turning in the big boy Dutch: He would be rich!
So, my conclusion is that Micah was chasing Dutch since the begining, but chose to stay with the gang so he could score some heists and some good money before seizing the moment and capturing Dutch. But that doesn't mean he was the rat to the Pinkertons since the begining. I do believe he was a traitor, but maybe not the Blackwater traitor, if ever there was one.
I think because of Micah's low honor he didn't intend on betraying them, but because he probably has the worst luck he ended up forcing himself to just to survive
As he said himself, "I am a survivor.."
@@Winston.S.Churchill I don't think they did pick him up after returning from Guarma, I think Milton was lying... Arthur is the first one off the boat, yet even if you go straight to Lakay (you can pick up a letter from Sadie to "Uncle Tacitus" at the Van Horn Post office) Micah is there when you arrive. It could be just developer oversight, but there's no way he would have had time to get captured, make a deal and then get back to the camp before Arthur.
@@Mirandelorean That line is pretty damning evidence... but considering Micah's character, I don't think he actually ratted, I think he promised Milton that he'd deliver Dutch, but that's a promise he had no intention of keeping. He was playing both sides so he could survive either way...
@@livewire2759 There’s some decent evidence he was ratting from the very beginning or was atleast plotting to get Dutch and some of the others for their bounty. Every heist the gang has performed since Micah joined has had pinkerton or law enforcement either present in large numbers stationed to respond or tipped off right before.
He supposedly “saved” Dutchs life in a saloon or something before blackwater. Do you really think fking Micah would save anyone without a reason? I think he had a plan to have his previous crimes reduced or expunged like John was supposed to of had or collect the bounties or both.
In his camp he has a $1000 bounty poster for Dutch that dates back to before blackwater. We know Arthur has a $5000 bounty in Chapter 2 post blackwater so we can safely assume Dutch has a significantly higher bounty at that point. It would definitely be in character for Micah to continue to inform on the gang until they were eventually caught or killed and he would collect a share. Every time they aren’t captured his share just goes up, meanwhile he is also collecting on the gangs profits.
On my first playthrough Milton and Ross came to visit Arthur and Jack fishing immediately after I saved Micah. They try and get you to turn and bring up your $5k bounty. Coincidence they knew where the camp was and approached you at the perfect time after Micah got back?
When Colm and Dutch meet, Micah sends Arthur to the specific location he is supposed to overwatch the meeting from and is jumped by a group of odriscolls. Colm’s goal is to capture Dutch and turn him in, probably splitting it with Micah. I believe he set this up with Colm and either had someone meet with Pearson and convince him Dutch would appreciate hearing it from him or Micah brought it to him. I think Pearson brings it up originally but I can’t remember for sure.
In the Saint Denis he wears all white while the rest of the gang wears all black. Hosea and Abigail are instantly caught by Milton, implying they were tipped off and ready well before hand.
On Guarma Fussar finds out who the gang is pretty quickly for people he’s never seen. I have no evidence for this but I think Micah gave them information in the hopes of getting a ride home from what probably seemed a hopeless situation.
Micah and Hosea had a really conflicting relationship and as soon as Hosea was killed by Milton, which I think Micah specifically told Milton to target Hosea, and Lenny who he didn’t like for racial reasons, he immediately got into Dutch’s ear and spoke constant lies of betrayal and lack of faith while also boosting his massive ego. Manipulating Dutch to only trust Micah and lead them on the path to ruin.
Perhaps the whole time Micah was playing everyone in the hopes of collecting the blackwater money with no survivors left and if the agents did get the gang on a dangerous heist he was already the mole so he could get away scot free. Win win win for Micah on all accounts. It doesn’t make sense for Micah to have only turned after Guarma when they were clearly getting constant information as far back a blackwater.
@@livewire2759 there’s more but I can’t remember more than that atm
Rockstar story mode games always have multiple ways to explain the story leaving lots of room for debate
One thing that I always thought was pretty unexplained was the train robbery, where you use the oil wagon to stop the train in chapter 2. Alot of lawmen show up eventually and Arthur mentions in the escape that it seemed like a setup with how many appeared. If you read the newspaper story on the train robbery it does directly say that the lawmen received a tip off about the robbery.
I think it is strange as it is not pinkertons that show up but lawmen meaning that whoever gave the tip off went straight to the law so they probably were not a Pinkerton informant, yet. It is also strange as this was not the whole gang going to be involved like Blackwater Ferry or Saint Dennis bank but just 4 members of the gang doing the robbery, so why try a setup on them unless they just want to weaken the gang further?
As for who would tip them off I would say Micah. I can't remember exactly where about Micah is at this point in the story, like at his Strawberry camp, but if he was at Horseshoe then I think he would be the main suspect as I think he is very focused on getting the Blackwater stashed money and less gang members = more money in his share. You can hear a conversation between him and Dutch where he offers to do a lone wolf mission to Blackwater and retrieve the money if Dutch just tells him where it is but dutch says no. Micah needs to find this out where the money is hidden and to do this he aims to stay on Dutch's good side for this. Maybe he hopes by taking out more major members of the gang then Dutch might become desperate and send Micah to get the money?
It is possible the Blackwater setup was Micah also. The whole robbery seemed to be his grand plan, he just needed a big gang to help him pull it off but if most of them were to die in a shootout afterwards then he would be able to take a bigger share of the money, or even eliminate the rest and take it all? I'm thinking of the robbery in the opening of The Dark Knight (Batman) movie with the Joker taking out all the other robbers until only he remains. Micah just didn't account for Dutch hiding the money in the town and most of the gang surviving, also becoming a wanted man that couldn't just go off on his own for a while. I think this could explain his actions going forward in the game where he tries to eliminate / ditch the gang until it is just him and Dutch and the Pinkertons become his best shot for achieving this.
I'm actually at this point now in my 2nd playthrough. Micah happens to be in Strawberry jail at this time. John gets the train tip after Micah is already in jail, so not sure how he'd of known. This has me thinking there had to be a another snitch. Sean joins the train robbery uninvited, and he was caught in Blackwater, but he dies in chapter 3, so that really doesn't make sense either. so many questions, lol
How is that tip off in the news paper not more well known, plus isn’t only them four that know about the robbery?
Even after almost 5 years now, seeing Red Dead Redemption 2 videos feels so enjoyable, especially the theories, the plot breakdowns, it's just so satisfying to watch. This game is a fucking masterpiece. How perfect.
they didn't need a traitor, they were sloppier than the town drunk
Dutch's plans were but when he wasn't in the heist/plan they weren't very sloppy
i just love Micah's dialogue, everytime he says Black Lung i laugh so hard🤣🤣
To be fair, I like the Milton character development. He’s not doing this because it brings him joy, he’s doing it because it’s his job to get rid of people that aren’t need in a new society, meaning that he didn’t kill Hosea in cold blood, he was just tired of giving warnings to the gang and knew they would never adapt to a new society. Think of it he gave the gang many warnings before the bank robbery and also he’s just a guy doing his job, not because he’s evil
I think him killing Hosea is his response to Arthur’s, “I haven’t done anything wrong, except not play by your rules”.
He tried it by his own rules, now, he’ll try theirs.
I always thought that Bronte got some type of information from Jack. Whenever Jack talks about his kidnapping he explains how he was treated really good but I don't think a character like Bronte would be good to someone for nothing. His ties to the police and government would make it meaningful.
This actually makes sense
the only downside of the theory is that jack is a 4 year old, what possible information could he give
@@mrepical7235The biggest thing would probably be where the gang is held up at. Maybe Jack told Bronte. And through the grapevine that info got to the O Drisscols who attack Shady Belle in the Horseman Apocalypse mission
@@captainosu2094 hes kidnapped before they go to shady belle and bronte was probably being kind to jack because hes just a young child, would potentially piss off his organisation, would potentially ruin the Braithwaite's ransom plan and he likes to potray himself as a better and more civilised man than your average run of the mill criminal. the o'driscols couldve found out about shady by hearing about the rhodes massacre or from the remaining leymone raiders who were ran out of there and likely were keeping an eye on it
I don’t think there’s any rat other than Micah. Arthur himself says that they’ve gotten sloppy and over the top lately so them just actually being noticed by the law from a mix of sloppiness and a growing tameness of the Americas makes a lot of sense. I do think Micah fed them bad tips constantly which threw gas into an already blazing fire
"We got sloppier than the town drunk, hell, we don't need a rat "
Entire video down the toilet bcc one line
Here's my theories on the various members mentioned here...
Micah:
Not the rat... not from the start, not after Blackwater, and not even after Guarma...
He knew about Dutch long before joining the gang as indicated by the bounty poster of only $1,000 (Arthur is told he's worth 5, so that must have been an old poster of Dutch's, or just a local bounty from one town or state)... therefore it's safe to say that Micah was likely stalking Dutch, looking for an opportunity to join up with him... which also explains why he was able to save Dutch's life when every other member of the gang claims to have been saved BY Dutch... it was Micah's way of getting Dutch indebted to him... then along came the opportunity of the Ferry robbery in BW, which Micah may have been planning long before he met Dutch, but either way it's clear to me that his plan was to use Dutch and his gang to pull off the robbery, then systematically run off, or kill off, the other members so he wouldn't have to share it... as indicated by his hatred for most of the gang members, especially the ones who don't contribute...
As for his status of "rat"... he was either a rat from day 1 and joined Dutch's gang at the request of the Pinkertons to be an inside agent, or (in my opinion) he never ratted at all and had no association with the Pinkertons, which would mean Milton lied about it. I don't believe he was captured by Pinkertons after returning from Guarma... Arthur was the first one off the boat, but yet Micah beat him to the new camp in Lakay, even if you go straight there instead of going to Shady Belle first... this could be developer oversight, or it could be further evidence that Milton lied.
Either way, it's clear that all Micah ever wanted was to run his own gang, either by taking over Dutch's gang, or starting his own (which he did later on) and to have a vast sum of money that he didn't earn... particularly the blackwater money, which he eventually got with help from Dutch... all of his sucking up was simply to "rank up" within the gang... he never had any respect for Dutch at all, he just needed him because Dutch was the only one (besides Hosea who hated Micah) who knew where the Blackwater money was stashed...
Molly:
loved Dutch, but grew to hate him based on how he treated her... as shown by the many conversations and arguments between her and Dutch throughout the story... they argue some in ch 2, then in ch 3 (as you pointed out) she tries to talk to Arthur about being loyal... the way I see it, she was going to tell Arthur that she had been confronted by Milton and Ross just like he had at the river while fishing with Jack... but I don't believe that she had ratted on Dutch at that point, she just wanted to talk to Arthur who had been in a similar situation and get his advice on what to do... but after that conversation, she and Dutch can be heard arguing loudly quite often, and by chapter 4 their relationship deteriorated to the point where she was depressed all the time, Dutch was completely ignoring at that point, and I believe she really did tell Milton and Ross about the bank robbery just to spite him for treating her so badly, since she likely overheard Dutch and Hosea planning it... she went to St. Denis, told Milton about the bank heist plans (he was likely in St. Denis after the trolly heist and Bronte's murder), then she started a drinking binge to cope with what she had done, expecting Dutch to track her down and kill her... and she stayed in St. Denis until Uncle found her, still drunk...
Abigail:
not the rat, in my opinion... but I completely understand the theory...
She didn't really fit in with the gang after having Jack, but stayed with them even while John was absent, though as you pointed out she wasn't being loyal, really, she was just waiting for John to come to his senses... (btw, it's implied that Hosea also took Jack fishing, he's the one who made him a fishing pole...or perhaps he also helped plan the meeting...) but anyway, I don't think abigail set up the meeting with Milton, she just noticed (woman's intuition) just by looking at Arthur, that something was bothering him... and as for the meeting at the end of chapter 3, there's no way in hell Abigail would allow her child to be abducted by enemies to allow for the gang to be arrested or to start a massive gun fight... sure, Milton may have known that Jack wasn't there and that may be why he approached them at that time, but I don't think they orchestrated the kidnapping, (as you pointed out they later shot up the building housing the whole gang, including Jack, at Lakay)... SO... after Jack was kidnapped and John finally realized he needed to step up and be a father to the kid, Abigail became 100% loyal to John, and not so much to the gang... which is why Micah suspected her and/or John as being the rat(s), and later seems to have convinced Dutch of that (as shown by the conversation in the cave on Guarma)... and that's why Dutch delayed breaking John out of prison and ultimately left him to die after he was shot during the train robbery... and Micah's theory was reinforced when Abigail got away during the bank heist, but clearly Hosea simply sacrificed himself so Abigail could escape... However, it is quite odd that they don't explain why Abigail is the only one taken when the Pinkertons raided the camp at Beaver Hollow... but it's implied that she was the only one there at the time, since none of the men were there, they were all out robbing the train... the Pinkertons took whoever they could for "bait"... and since Tilly ran off with Jack, Abigail was really the only one left... Pearson and Uncle had already fled, Strauss, Trelawny and Rev Swanson were all gone, even Mary-Beth and Karen had disappeared by that point, so Abigail, Grimshaw, Tilly and Jack were the only ones left... Maybe Grimshaw hid in the cave while Abigail and Tilly panicked when the Pinkertons showed up and had to search frantically to find Jack, so if Tilly found Jack and hid with him, and Abigail was found by the agents, it makes sense why she was the one taken and Tilly was able to see it happen...
John:
not the rat... but again, I understand the theory... especially since he left the gang once before...
He was still loyal to the gang, though just as Abigail became more loyal to him after Jack's kidnapping, he became more loyal to her and Jack at that point as well... obviously plotting with Arthur on how to escape WHEN the gang falls apart, which they both saw as an inevitability by ch 6... but not to leave the gang or betray anyone, just to save Abigail and Jack... Sure, he was the only one taken alive after the bank robbery, but he simply may have surrendered after being seperated from the rest of the gang... we don't get to see it, but Javier's account of it makes it seem like John got surrounded and couldn't escape, so the only choice he had was to fight and die or surrender and hope to stay alive for the sake of his family... expecting Dutch to send someone to break him out like he had done for Sean after BW... and Micah in Strawberry... (and for Arthur numerous times if you play that way...)
Dutch:
betrayed himself, his own code and his own gang...
Even though I'm convinced that Molly was the rat, I agree 100% that it was Dutch himself who destroyed the gang by continually pushing in the wrong direction... figuratively and literally (including pushing Molly to her breaking point)... If he had actually kept a low profile in ch 2 and moved the gang back out west (yes, they would have had to go back through the Grizzlies to do it, but the weather would have been much milder by then, so it would have been the right call)... the gang likely would have survived much longer than it did...
Some might say that they couldn't go back through the grizzlies since the Pinkertons followed them through there to find them near Valentine, but I disagree... The Pinkertons found them because of the crap Micah stirred up in Strawberry, which blocked off all of West Elisabeth from the gang to travel through, leaving the grizzlies the only option they had left... other than moving east, which was clearly a bad idea... in hindsight, yes, but they were discussing moving back to the west in ch 2 and even mention it in ch 3... Hosea, Arthur, etc... all knew that was the better idea but they followed Dutch further east anyway.
Even when you consider that Micah, Molly, Trelawny, Abigail AND John (even Pearson, lol) could have all been ratting at different times, it's still Dutch's decisions that sealed the fate of the gang... after all, he's the one who recruited all of them in the first place...
I had so much fun reading this
Alternatively, Micah may have planned the Blackwater Heist as a double-edged sword, get Dutch's gang to do the heavy lifting so he could take the money and he goaded Dutch into killing Hattie McCourt to raise the bounty on him then run everyone off and keep Dutch as his best friend then turn him in for the bounty later after the heat on himself died down, but the Pinkertons got to him before he could do that, so he had to turn rat before turning in Dutch. Probably would have turned him in while they were hiding in the mountains if he himself hadn't been involved in killing Agent Milton
You put so much work into these videos… it’s amazing.
Dude your videos are fantastic for the scenery shots alone.
another of the great ones, good work man
Always ready for another Red Dead redemption 2 video
ive been binge watching your videos and theyre all so good, keep up the good work!
Great video as ever, only last week I was looking around here and Reddit to see if anyone had a good, fleshed-out theory on a non-Micah traitor, then the best RDR channel comes out with it. I do love these lore videos and enjoy rewatching the older ones too.
I do think Abigail is likely to be "betraying" the gang by a certain point, the circumstances of the Saint Denis robbery around her escape and John being arrested rather than killed as Hosea and Lenny are point to it, and the fact she takes the opportunity to kill Milton having never killed anyone else that we know of speak to it. Yes, she does it to save Arthur but as she is sat there watching Milton spill the beans on Micah and Molly, the thought must occur that her name might be next out of his mouth. The thing is, I agree with her motivations if she is informing on the gang - she has Jack to think about, wants out of the gang life along with John and will surely do anything to facilitate that happening. She cares for Arthur, Hosea and some of the others no doubt but she also will see by mid/late game that those close allies agree with her notion of needing to get out. I think you're spot on regarding the fishing mission set-up too.
Micah is clearly out for himself from the start, but up until the bank robbery in Chapter 4 fails, he is better placed to try and engineer his own solo success out of the gang's demise by nabbing the Blackwater money, rather than informing. After Guarma, it is all clearly falling apart and he sees his best chance for self-preservation is by playing the Pinkertons against the gang. He's been a traitor the whole time, but not an outright rat until that point.
I would have liked to see some exploration of Hosea as a potential traitor, for some of the same reasons as Abigail's place in the distraction during the robbery, and because he is shown to be terminally ill and genuinely cares about the well-being of the gang members. Perhaps he felt he could bargain for the safety of Abigail, John and the others who weren't outright murdering gunslingers, and perhaps Milton murdering him in the street is a direct betrayal of an agreement they had. I like it as an idea less than Abigail being a traitor, but it's something worth mooting.
Anyway, great to see an in-depth video on this topic at last! Keep them coming, if you can manage to continue finding new angles to look at RDR2's wonderful narrative. No mean feat after over 4 years, but you're still doing it. Cheers Fizhy.
I love all the theories and extra lore we get in this video. I will say personally I do not believe that there is a second traitor beyond Micah. There really doesn't need to be for the story to work out the way it did. I have always felt that RDR2 was also about really explaining why Dutch was the way he was in RDR1. He is his and his ally's worst enemy he simply cannot lay low or compromise because he's like a cult leader whose compound is being raided. He is all about control and "living free" based on his "code" but it doesn't matter how many people have to get buried he will always rationalize it. I mean it all perfectly lines up with his final encounter in RDR1 where he basically admits his "war" against civilization was futile you might as well try fighting a natural disaster barehanded.
Loved this one 🙏🏿💜, I remember PVP Cat doing a similar video last year where he was bringing some theories about the various rat's beyond Micah. And I love that the writers have never confirmed or denied the various theories so it kinda leaves it all up in the air for us all.
15:04 he could just be trying to mess with Arthur, making him think he killed an innocent woman🤣💀
Thank you for this insight & wonderful editing
Yaaaas my, man milking red dead and we love it. Quality content as always. Keep it up Fizhy❤😊
Micah was a rat long before chapter 6, the mission were you rob a bank (Chapter 4 maybe?) Micah has white clothing on while the rest of the gang are in black, indicating that the police force was told not to shoot the man in white. (This is not confirmed yet)
Man. STILL finding dialogue I've never heard before. This game never ceases to amaze.
It's mad how much sense this makes and it was right under our noses the entire time.
Great video. I think you made a lot of good points in this, especially about Dutch (who frankly became a disaster by the end) and the gang being very unsubtle about everything. I mean some of them were notorious very loud people. (I mean Bill's very stealthy attempt at trying to find the gang in the swamp hideout, not surprising they were found).
I believe Molly was just very upset with Dutch and wasn't in a good emotional state. It just seemed like (whether or not she planned on getting unalived) she really just wanted a go at Dutch (like maybe she wanted/tried to tell the Pinkertons stuff but not in a Wanted To Be An Informant way, more like a Pissed At Dutch way).
Micah is just very easy to hate and is clearly extremely selfish. As for Abigail, having a kid would have made her and/or John particularly vulnerable members. Something that could have been exploited if the Pinkertons knew. Not that Milton was even remotely trustworthy about anything.
RDR2 has a very interesting story and there is a lot that is unclear about it. I mean we start AFTER the Blackwater mess and are also limited to Arthur's perspective who conviniently (storywise) was not actually present at the event. I mean another game might have started with that mission.
Sean might be the second rat.
On chapter 2 micah is locked away in Strawberry. When you get sean out from blackwater, you can do a train robbery with John, and Charles. Sean invites himself along. Yet the local law turn up quickly. This is even questioned by the gang members at the end of the mission.
Now for my own experience, before this robbery happened, Abigail asked me to take Jack fishing. Where the Pinkertons first show up offering Arthur a deal...
So within a short time of Sean's release, pinkertons arrive close to camp, a train robbery nearly goes bad... And Micah is still in jail.
It is unlikely Micah was a rat until he came back from Guama.
You know, I never thought about that, but the question is: why? Sean surely looks sleaze than most and has a rough personality, but he doesn't seem to have a goal per se outside the gang from what I recall. He looks like me more like an adrenaline junkie than a rat bound to law.
I read a newspaper after it did say the law confirmed there was a rat
Will always love the “Five thousand dollars! ….Can I turn myself in?” 😂😂
13:58 wtf molly that was terrifying 🤣
😂🤣 lol
Micha also orchestrated the meeting with Colm O'Driscoll, and sent Arthur to the lookout spot where Colm later says they knew he would be waiting and the whole thing was about capturing Arthur to lure in Dutch.
Only thing about that is that they already lured Dutch into the open 🤔
I genuinely just think Dutch and the gang were getting sloppy. Micah being the rat from the beginning could be true but I find it equally (if not moreso) likely that he just isn’t that careful and got into Dutch’s head, when he was picked up by the Pinkertons he just seized that opportunity.
love your videos Fizhy! please keep up the good work
28:26 Ooft Micah copying Arthurs "You'll work it out Dutch...", never noticed that before, so freaking creepy!!!
Awesome video!
I got the sense that Abigail and John were both red herrings, each being taken alive at different points to make the player think that is how they got out of the gang. It seems like Rockstar wanted John and Abigail to seem like moles, up until the end when it’s revealed to be Micah. I never got the sense that they actually betrayed the gang, rather Dutch’s paranoia about them made their actions seem more suspicious than they were.
I cringe every time I see someone say that Abigail was a rat. As if she’d put her 4 year old son in direct danger of being killed or orphaned by bringing the law down on them. And the idea that she’d purposely send Jack to a location where Pinkertons would be, knowing the danger that would put him in, and would also pick THE most loyal member to send into this supposed plan, is ridiculous.
The first game is entirely about the law holding Abigial and Jack alive to motivate John to do their dirty work. Jack would have never been in any real danger with the gang and with the law, not when he's valuable. You're also assuming Abigail would think the law would just massacre and entire gang that is wanted alive, including a child and women. It's fine if you don't think Abigail was a rat, but acting like people are stupid for thinking it, when you yourself having thought things though, is ridiculous.
@@threemar3 You really think there's no danger in having a 4 year old caught up in a gun fight? You think the gang would just let the law take them in without returning fire? They get in gunfights with the law during every job they do, but you think they wouldn't get in one if the law raided camp? Okay lol. There's also the fact that she depends on the gang for her sons survival. She has no way to feed or clothe him without them, but sure, she's just gonna give all of that up so her and her son can live in the wilderness by themselves with no way of getting food or housing.
the wanted poster of dutch is interesting. the bounty only being 1000 $ makes we wonder if it's an old poster, something he might have picked up when he decided to find Dutch and join the gang.
as for Abigail being a traitor, my only real question would be how she would go about it? As we are told plenty of times the ladies stay in camp all the time, and Abigail is illiterate so she couldn't send letters.
One thing I've never seen in any of these videos is that how does the o'Driscolls knew where Arthur was when they had the parlay. Makes me think more towards Micah ratting him out. Maybe not cuz he's working with the Pinkertons, but his way into moving up the leadership ladder.
My theory is that Micah was the rat from the start. He necessarily didn't work with Pinkertons, but he was trying to enrich himself. He somehow heard that Dutch has a stach somewhere in Blackwater, then he cosied up to him to try and get to know where it is. For months Dutch didn't tell him, so Micah came up with a plan- the Ferry job. He anonymously tipped off the Pinkertons in a hope that Dutch would get shot and before he dies he would reveal to Micah where the stash is (with Dutch thinking Micah would use it to help the gang to get away). That's why Arthur nor Hosea weren't at that job. But during the story of RDR 2 Micah's plan changed, and in the end, the best way for Micah to get a lot of money was to help the gang rob the Saint Denis bank (which failed, probably not Micah's fault but who knows maybe this was the similar to Ferry job- anonymously tip off Pinkertons and then run away with the money during the chaos) and in the end to drive a wedge between Dutch and Arthur so that Micah could tip off Pinkertons while running away with the train job money.
I think it was Dutch that did them in. They didn't need a rat because he (and the gang at large) never kept a low profile. As soon as Chapter 2 begins, are you telling me nobody in Valentine didn't talk about the big, burly cowboy who beat up the local tough guy with his buddies, matching exactly the outlaws that Milton had been tracking in West Elizabeth? That's why Dutch has to float the idea, because his ego won't allow him to see that he was directly responsible for every. Single. Death.
You constantly get confronted by npcs in Valentine for beating up Tommy, and the newspaper in Valentine dedicated an entire headline to the Blackwater massacre
Love the content ur a real one keep it up !!
Arthur said it himself. "We don't need a rat. We got sloppier than the town drunk..."
Gimme dis content immediately I cannot wait the 1 hour and 9 minutes
If the theory about Abigail is true, then Milton was likely using her as bait in the final mission. It would certainly explain how she would be able to untie herself.
Amazing video man, favourite rdr creator by a mile
Not many channels could get me to watch 35 minutes worth of content, but Fizhy I more than capable. Great video
I think Abigail started ratting out the gang when jack has been kidnapped, probably because she was scared for his life and was going insane, so she did it because she thought jack wouldn't get rescued and that if she becomes a traitor and on the Pinkertons' sides she would get jack back, but then when they got jack back, she knew she screwed up, so somewhere between chapter 5/chapter 6 she left the Pinkertons' sides, which then explains the end where Abigail is captured and tried for murder
What if there was never a rat, maybe milton figured he couldn't stop the gang unless he destroys them from the inside. So he said there was a rat to get them to turn on each other. And it worked
There clearly was. Because blackwater would of went well if there weren't
The whole blackwater ferry massacre is a good setting to build on and give more backstory with a possible future RDR 3 game with new main characters
19:33 seems Hosea’s foot might be a little soupy 😂
In my personal opinion Micah did not rat he’s an outlaw through and through he loves the life as much as his guns he would not give that up he was even casual when he was about to die because that’s part of the life
However Molly did but in my opinion hadn’t enough information to actually make a difference so they let her go
I also think Abigail is a likely suspect there’s motive and she certainly was capable of doing it
However I would not be surprised if Karen accidentally ratted whilst drunk at a bar
Even Trelawny is a somewhat reasonable suspect he had some motive and again the means to do something with it
There’s also a lot of ‘side characters’ not main gang members but could certainly rat a bit
They got sloppy so they died if there’s a rat then Milton would’ve known how close Micah and Dutch became so why not sow seeds of doubt incase everything doesn’t go his way
Realistically everyone but Arthur,John,Havier,Jack,Straus,Hosea and Dutch himself are not out of the conversation for who the rat is
Yeah, Micah is an outlaw, and would therefore have plenty of motivation to rat out the gang..
Micah may be a outlaw but mainly he is a surrivor - and a surrivor does what needs to be done to surrive. "surriving" for Micah always meant to get the gang into a dire sitaution where he can work his way up to Dutch in order to find out where the Blackwater money is.
It's possible Abigail revealed the location of the camp in chapter 3 hoping that the Pinkerton's would help to get her son back in return. I seriously doubt that they were working with the Braithwaites.
This is a chilling video truly good work 👍
Mary-Beth checks just the right boxes: she never comes into direct conflict with the Pinkertons, she's conspicuously absent from Lakay, she's the one who gave the lousy train tip where lawmen ambushed the gang, she abandons the gang as the last possible moment right before Pinkertons raid them.
Maybe, but why? We know her backstory is true
Abigail seems to be kinda rat but when she kills Milton it doesn’t seem like that but I still think Micah was the real traitor
The theory isn’t Micah isn’t a rat because he was it’s that there was 2 rats and if you snitched on your gang and the person that you snitched to is holding your friend at gun point and could tell him anytime that you snitched you wouldn’t shoot him?
Imagine a prequel with the story of hosea and dutch
Alex
amazing video its making me question a lot of things in the game thank you.
This is certainly very interesting, but one other thing i noticed in the video just at the end, is the giant plume of smoke coming from the campfire, that kind of ruins the idea of a secret hideout. Perhaps that's how the Pinkertons found the campsite, just like how the player finds other campsites, with treasure maps and such.
I think it’s heavily implied Abigail being the rat. But surely if she was, later on when she’s captured in RDR1, John would have found out off of Agent Ross when he’s used to be able to track down the old crew. Also, why would she be tied up in the last mission of Chapter 6 yet Micah who is also the rat isn’t attacked by the Pinkertons. In the shootout at camp. He’s just able to slip away. Also, at the end of the game Agent Ross goes up to Micah’s camp and then is surprised to find him dead. Almost like he was waiting for Micah to hand over Dutch since he wasn’t expecting Dutch to shoot him
Also I don’t think she would put jack in any harms way yes she could be doing it to get jack out but if Dutch found out there’s the risk of him killing jack so I don’t think she would
I don't really think it's Abigail for all the things we've thought about.
For her, being fearful of being shot at with young Jack around makes absolute sense. However, there's John being another of a highly regarded enforcer for Dutch that the Pinkertons were eyeing for thus for her to betray the gang would mean betraying John out too which, makes no sense if you look back about the whole of Chapter 6 when John was imprisoned. If she's a Pinkerton asset, she could definitely negotiate a way out for John but she couldn't and the ironic twist is that the Pinkertons were the ones who arrested John so it made no sense, at that point, for the Pinkertons to even not know John was Abigail's husband and yet they arrested him which would jeopardize the whole operation.
Great video. Had an idea though. Pinkertons gets word that the O’Driscolls are growing in numbers and becoming a major problem in the region. They also have received a tip that The Van Der Linde have moved into the area. So the Pinkertons set up the ferry job as a trap waiting to see which fish they can catch. Sending out under covers to drop information regarding the ferry and it’s payload. Micha gets word and tells Dutch because he’s money driven and they go for it. What if it didn’t start because of a rat but rather a trap?