The Mental Decline of Dutch Van Der Linde - Red Dead Redemption 2
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- čas přidán 17. 05. 2023
- Dutch van der Linde is perhaps one of the most interesting characters in the Red Dead Redemption games, in today's video we will be exploring his actions and changes in demeanour that result or contribute to the factors affecting events, leading to the decline of the Van der Linde Gang
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#RDR2 #reddeadredemption #rockstargames - Hry
arthur: you keep killing folk dutch
also arthur: kills 1000 people during the game
arthur isn´t a hero... he is a villain, outlaw, criminal, but not a psycopath sadistic monster as Micah and Dutch
arthur is no better than any of them
@@leonardofagundescioffi3778 My minimum honour Arthur would disagree
this is true but it also depends entirely on how u choose to play him
@@okurinrin either way you kill as much people as dutch does.
This is unrelated but the way Hosea is killed breaks my heart every time. He was like the Grandfather who wanted everyone to be safe and sound. And he gets shot like an animal and quite literally crumples to the ground, and visibly spasms/shudders before his light is extinguished.
I know! It's so sad, like, truly sad and tragic. The others all had it coming somehow. But him ...
And Dutch's face says it all too. Hes in shock as he just lost his longtime best friend hes known for years as him and Hosea practically started the gang together as younger men. That alone was another tipping point to break his sanity even further and then they lose Lenny to a gunshot and John gets arrested and sentenced to hanging. All of this is just going all wrong and Dutch is terrified of his constant failings. And the gang judging him and leaving the Gang altogether.
It hurts extra bad when you think about the theory of karma. Unfortunately all of Hosea’s life decisions lead to his death.
@@jasminburney2164Exactly this. Don't get me wrong, Hosea was one of the most likable members of the gang, but when you willingly engage in that kind of lifestyle, you have to acknowledge that every day you're putting yourself at risk of catching a bullet you're not going to just walk away from.
@@jasminburney2164 live by the sword die by the sword 🫤
Hearing arthur say "I gave you all I had" and "I tried" will never NOT make me cry.
Benjamin Byron Davis cried after leaving the scene
IKR. I know Arthur was an outlaw and did bad things but the way he died made me cry. The voice actor killed that. You could hear the sadness in Arthur's voice. The fact that his last words were "I gave you all I had. I tried." Shows how hard Arthur worked to redeem himself. That's why I personally believe that deep down Arthur was a good man who was raised in a bad environment. He loved Dutch and looked up to him and to die like that is so freaking sad.
@@NightLoveStarhe was a sadistic outlaw who tried to gaslight people into believing Dutch was the way. Like John
@@Richtofen-gy9cjand peter blomquest i think had a break down after killing arthur (if u get low honor ending)
@@Richtofen-gy9cji don't blame him, i think we all did😭
I believe the reason why Dutch is so trusting of someone as volatile and immoral as Micah is because Micah is a mirror to Dutch’s own lack of any moral principles.
Dutch relates to Micah in this sense and so he prefers him over Arthur. Not just because Micah feeds his ego but also because he feels more comfortable acting more immoral around someone like Micah who he knows won’t judge him for his action.
So in the end Micah is simply who dutch is if he didn’t pretend to be anything more than a criminal
Yeah manipulative sociopaths like Micah can play Narcissists like a fiddle, happens in real life too
Explained this so well and gave me another perspective to see Dutch through, so cool!
Micah was the vessel that Dutch could act out his true self.
Arthur represents who he wants to be and Micah is everything he is but dutch is slightly better than Micah as Dutch never gave off r*pist vibes
@@theoutsiderjess4869 I think there’s actually a lot to imply predatory behaviour in Dutch as much as with Micah.
Not only being a regular heartbreaker in how many of the women of the camp seemed to have a relationship with him until he’d toss them aside, most notably Grimshaw and molly.
Not to mention you can spot him being creepy around Mary Beth around the camp sometimes.
So while he may seem initially not to be the same level of gross as Micah
I think there’s something there to suggest that Dutch has and absolutely would take advantage of the women in the camp if he knows he won’t get caught.
I knew it was game over for Arthur and Dutch's friendship when I saw him leave me for dead in Cornwall Kerosene & Tar factory. You could only see him from the waist down, through the steam, but that one scene told a thousand words 👍
Dutch never actually gave a shit about Arthur as a person, he only cared what arthur could do for him and that was to obey his every order and bend him to his will. Arthur realized that when he actually expressed his own thoughts, Dutch started to hate him. Dutch is a Narcissistic cult leader who really believes he does good and everything he does is justified, even if that means robbing and murdering whoever he pleases
From that moment on, he was like Judas. 🍿
Really messed up he raised someone as a kid and leaves him like that because of some false reality he created about Arthur.
He pratically raised Arthur and left him to die
He basically left his eldest son to die.
31:35
Dutch: "Maybe, for somebody, this is all going exactly to plan."
[Arthur falls off cliff]
"Sorry about that, you get the idea."
I legitimately laughed so hard that I fell out of my chair.
Don’t care.
Do care 😁
I feel neutral about this
@@josephgonzo
I don't know if I feel much of anything anymore
it alright
Seeing how Arthur look at Dutch with such pride, I can see how painful it was for Dutch to see Arthur look at him with complete distrust and fear towards the end. The art team did an amazing job portraying a range of emotions on a video game model. Absolutely amazing.
Benjamin Byron Davis actually cried after leaving the scene
All thanks to Roger Clark’s performance
mo cap mate it's all the actors
Also the complete contempt for Arthur's sickness. The line, "aww, Arthur needs to rest", you could tell that hit Arthur HARD and you can see it on his face. Arthur is dying by this point and is clearly showing signs he's very sick (pale skin, weight loss, worsening coughing).
@@Richtofen-gy9cj Do you have a link to that video?
i didn’t realize that dutch was even slightly a bad guy until the stuff with the native american’s pushing his problems onto them to save his own skin. and then him leaving arthur to die, truly shocked me. however replaying the game i noticed all the little bits that pointed to his selfishness. i felt like a complete fool, probably as everyone in the gang felt.
During my first playthrough I noticed it when Arthur got captured by the odriscolls and Dutch didn’t really try to find Arthur. Even if Arthur was known to go his own way I feel like if Dutch was who he was supposed to be he would have tried to make sure Arthur was fine just because of the circumstances
Having not played RDR1 yet, I was completely blindsided by Dutch's true colors. Up until chapter 4, I thought he was just a leader who's trying his best to serve his people, but when I replayed the story a second time, all his speeches hit differently. I can't help but roll my eyes everytime he talks about his 'plan' and when he asks the gang to have faith in him. I also found his speech notes on camp, meaning he rehearses them. Such a well written character.
I feel like I'm still struggling to wrap my mind around it. Especially because so many people keep finding excuses for Dutch. "He had a head injury" "but Arthur hurt his feelings by not trusting him :(((" and stuff... Huh no. Even in Shady Belle when Abigail is the one telling Dutch his way isn't working, he completely sidelines her and ignores her and diminishes her pov, actively mocking her in front of Arthur and John. Dutch was a proud, arrogant fool that couldn't handle the idea that the world was getting smarter than him, so he chose to become crueler (as seen on RDR1). To me, him using Eagle Flies and the Wapiti's desperation really was the lowest of the low, especially when you know he *does it again* at the time of RDR1. There is no remorse left in Dutch at this point, and I gotta question if there ever was, seeing how he treated "his son" at the time of his death. To me, as Rain Falls says on RDR2, Dutch was always a bad person, just having the "charisma" to hide it from his gang until Micah (and by that, I mean mostly the Pinkertons lbr) started ruining his plans. I guess, props to Micah for that.
I never played RDR1, but I caught it when he was hitting on Mary Beth at Horseshoe Overlook while he was supposed to be with Molly.
bro they really made him so much of a manipulator that he manipulated the PLAYERS aswell bc he did truly sound like a nice decent prideful and influencing leader untill those mad betrayal scenes
I always felt Dutch Van der Linde was a once in a lifetime written character, with how well Rockstar was able to craft such a complex character for a video game and add to what was already presented in the original Red Dead 8 years before the Prequel,so seamlessly too in a way where you could truly feel you were watching the same character from the whole other installment!
@Dutch van der linde I have a plan.
People genuinely used to wonder if he was always like that or a head tramua that did him in and personally I think it's a bit of both
@Dutch van der linde Don’t be cringe
If I’m not mistaken they started rdr2 right after the 1st, as I read that it took them 8 years of making the game until it was released.
Redemption isn't the 'Original' Red Dead.
"Please enjoy the mental decline of Dutch Van Der Linde"
That's one messed up thing to say, my friend
messed up but highly enjoyable
It's a fictional character, so...
That should replace the rockstar games presents when the game starts
@@nathanmiller9918likely loosely based off RL mental health breakdowns to a degree
@@ziahamm1603absolutely. Like Charles Manson combined with a revolutionary..
Hossae was the little angel on Dutch's shoulder keeping him in check all those years. His death was the biggest turning point for Dutch's downfall
"Unruly bastard! He's an angel.. if I'm near him." - Hosea
@@Edax_Royeaux hahahahahaha that's perfect
Dutch: They're just trying to scare is to do something stupid.
Also Dutch: Does every stupid thing you can imagine.
Dutch was very smart. He did what was often referred to as a "gamer move". He antagonized everybody without any plan afterwards.
@@coltonwilkie241He always has a plan
@@devilsnevercry69 He just needs more money and more time
@@randomcoloradan2878 we just need to have some faith
@@devilsnevercry69 We just need to do one last job, and then we'll be picking mangoes in tahiti
His red dead videos never fail.
He don’t miss
Can’t tell you the countless of
times i’ve rewatched his videos.
Except his take on brain injuries is so far from what science tells us.
until he runs out of npcs to ramble on about
unlike Dutch's plan...
I always loved the moment when Arthur says "You gonna strangle me next?" It perfectly shows the moment when Arthur finally fully realizes that Dutch can't be trusted anymore.
Yep. But he only says it if you have low honor
@@joekuvorkian no he says "maybe we all just got rotten" if you have low honor
@@sergentay4171 I'm telling you he doesn't say "You gonna strangle me next?" Unless you have low honor
I love that "I...I...." from Dutch at 45:10 is just perfect. Its like his realization of *EVERYTHING* that happened. All the chances to escape and warnings from Friends he ignored. Arthur dying at his feet still trying to get Dutch to see reason
Now all Dutch had left was Micah who is a Rat and a gang of killers.....No Hosea, No Ms. Grimshaw, No Arthur. Any kind of Morals the gang had are gone. Tilly, Trelawny, Swanson, mary beth all ran away as to not be killed. And then Lenny, Sean, Mac, Davey and Jenny dead. He can't argue anymore about loyalty since his betrayal of his Family lying dead at his feet. Then he just turns and walks away, unable to look at his failure he leaves without any care of the money.
He is also the one who kills Micah at the end. He finally did what he should have done years ago. Sadly it was way too late to fix any damage and Dutch knows that which pushed him more into the madness we see in RDR 1. He even admit to John in RDR 1 that he was wrong.
I think it's because he no longer had Pearson's amazing cooking
Dutch lived enough to see himself turning Colm O'Driscoll in someone honorable next to him
I actually believe the redemption duology is the story of Dutch, someone who failed to redeem himself, told through two different men who achieve redemption, the first one retroactively so
I think the moral of Dutch's story is that it's easy to have ideals when nobody is pushing against them but when people do start pushing against them and it gets harder and harder to maintain those ideals most people will completely abandon them in exchange for survival.
And it's also fitting that the game is set in a time when such people were at their zenith, the 1890s, this was before the First World War and the madness that has since followed to this day. And yet you still have morons and lolcows who are merely clones of Cornwall, O'Driscoll, Bell and especially Van der Linde. You see this all the time on CZcams in particular. In every category of video production, be it users who make videos about Computer Games, users who virtue-signal about Politics, users who Autisticly analyse Animation from around the world, and even those who deal with History with their CZcams accounts. It's all about being a grandstanding clout-chaser rather than an honest man and a woman of practice.
Josh Slocum was very, very right about people who are this mentally deluded that they genuinely believe that they're doing the right thing, or alternatively, people who hold such lofty ideals or concepts and are more than capable and active in rationalising their stupidity and pride at the detriment of others. As for real-life examples, they have more in common with Maximilien Robespierre and Joan Crawford than anyone else.
I think Dutch had post traumatic stress disorder, and he demeanor changed thoughtout the game because he was becoming more desperate because nothing was working out for him and he was struggling to cope and getting overwhelmed. Even in chapter 2 Dutch accuses Arthur that he will betray him and then he apologizes because he didn't know why he said it
I don't think Arthur betrayed Dutch. He followed him until he just couldn't but he never betrayed him. He just stopped following him.
@@tigerwoods373he didnt
@@tigerwoods373 I mean he did literally betray him. He never pulls a gun on him, but he does act in opposition to his orders (see: Arthur saving John despite Dutch saying otherwise).
@@tigerwoods373dutch betrayed Arthur way before Arthur even thought about it
@@chipstick3856 Because Arthur knew, Dutch would'nt go to save John
I love that this game is still being talked about after all these years. A true testament to how great it is.
Not talked about enough, imo. Hopefully RDR gets picked up for a Netflix spinoff too, similar to TLOU. The length of the story is perfect for it, maybe we can even get backstories on other gang members.
@@uwu-uv4mg I don’t personally think it should be adapted into any other media, but I guess we won’t know the quality until it happens
@@unusualjdawg96 if it was made by the same people who made Breaking Bad, it would work. But yeah, if it's not gonna be at that caliber, then I agree, nobody should touch it.
Just like new vegas.
Dutch is not only Rockstar’s greatest villain, but also quite possibly the most well written one they’ve made. He was already a very interestingly crazy man in Red Dead 1 but the whole evolution of his character through both games was even greater.
I believe he killed Micah mostly for himself and maybe slightly for Arthur. It was likely because Dutch realized he had been played a fool by Micah and couldn’t believe he let someone like him get so close to him. He really gave up on his dream for the perfect utopia he ever so wanted, gave up on reaching Tahiti etc. he became a broken and dangerous man who no longer had any true goals but to cause as much damage as possible.
By 1911, he kept going after and attacking Blackwater because it represents everything he hates. Blackwater was the start of his gang’s gradual downfall.
I don’t believe in the head injury he got in Saint Denis theory because Dutch was already showing signs of his evil, violent nature much early on when he killed Heidi McCourt in cold blood. I think Dutch was always a bad person, he basically masqueraded pretending he was a man of the people. I further believe Hosea’s death drove him madder.
Red Dead Redemption was the second Red Dead game, not the first.
@williamchristy9463 I know that. When I say red dead 2, I mean RDR2 just shortened.
@@AlikStansberry --But RDR2 is even shorter, and doesn't refer to the game before it.
It doesn’t matter I use both terms interchangeably.
@@williamchristy9463 no one cares william !!!
If you shoot early in American venom and Dutch kills you, if you use mods to have it not fail the mission, he’ll say, with the purest sincerity and regret, “oh…son” and in my heart that proves he was corrupted and not evil from the moment he started his gang
It breaks my heart
Nobody is truly evil, everyone in their own minds are the hero’s of their own story. Dutch was never evil but he certainly was never good either, he always walked the thin line between philosophical outlaw and an insane one
I think despite Dutch being a vile man in reality, deep down he genuinely loved John and Arthur as his sons. He practically raised the both of them since they were kids, and despite how things have turned out for the gang he can't truly hate them. Even in John and Dutch's final talk in RDR1 you can tell Dutch still has love for him I feel.
@@brightroot5719 Yet he doesn't have enough love for Arthur to... idk, kinda hold his hand, say anything while he's dying. So 🤷♀
Sad
I liked your comment that crime is evolving beyond Dutch’s worldview. Despite his contempt for Bronte, it’s his brand of crime that would dominate the coming century.
My wife and I just finished playing through the game a couple days ago - I have played it through a couple times previously, but it was her first. My take away is that he was definitely struggling beforehand, but the trolley incident certainly seems to have made him more erratic, aggressive, and downright mean. He's almost never nasty to Arthur or other gang members until after that event.
But why? Because Brontë betrayed him? We know he requires loyalty above all else and when someone betrayed him, he became undone. Then he finds out Molly betrayed him.
Did it need to happen twice? Probably not but I think that was certainly the point he would never recover from even if Hosea was still alive.
I never thought the trolley did anything and it was actually the death of Hosea who acted to hold Dutch back. Dutch starts off pushing tonsee if anyone will step up to the plate and he sees no one can
@@thecommunistdoggo1008 I don't think he ever gave anyone the option. Realistically it would only be Arthur, Micah and John to step up. He let Micah "step up" and sealed their fate. John probably wouldn't know or would've chose poorly only leaving Arthur. But I think it would fracture the group had Dutch let Arthur decide, since he was "going soft." Bill, Javier and Micah would never agree to it.
Plus rockstar would never let you step up as the story needs you not to.
I think that the environment and groups dreams changed too much to ever keep the group together. Even without blackwater, the group is doomed and that's leaving out a whole game and is kind of crazy speculation.
@@tigerwoods373 That's the point they had to do it the way Hosea did none of them were smart enough to play Dutch's game while still telling him no the way Hosea could. Not like Dutch would willingly give up his power anyway, the game shows this consistently
@@tigerwoods373I disagree with bill and Javier not agreeing. They had no animosity for Arthur
I find it funny people don't talk about John said around the campfire that he can't get the girl Dutch killed out of his head but by 1911 he doesn't remember her at all
I thought about that too. How strange that John didn't remember her even tho he mentions her in 1899.
It's pretty clear from context John was saying "No" to the Strange Man out of caution. It was a stranger recalling in incruciating detail the horrible event John took part in, only natural he's going to deny it.
@@watermelon5159 yea that's the criminal in him
@@watermelon5159 I see your point.
Watermelon said it best, John knew exactly what the strange man was referring too. He was testing the depth of the knowledge the strange man had on the incident.
My take on Dutch was changed when I played through the game a third time. Dutch's psyche to me was represented by the various gangs in each act, whether deliberate or not by the writers.
Chapter 1 and 2 -
The O'Driscolls. They were Dutch and the Gangs rivals and the closest thing to normality in a world where the outlaw was being relegated to the outskirts of civilisation. However both gangs become increasingly more malicious as time goes on and other rival dissappear. It's almost a nostalgic for Dutch.
Chapter 3 - The Lemoyne Raiders. A group who are still stuck in the past and pine for times long gone. Dutch begins to feel under pressure of bouncing back the way they used to but the events at Clement point remind him that they are running lower than ever despite his hope that the Braithwaites would be his ticket to the Van Der Linne gang of old.
Chapter 4 - The night folk and the Bronte crime family.
Both of these groups represent the total opposite of each other at a critical time in the Gang's future. The Night folk are small in comparison to the story but they are these strange semi mythical swamp creatures who still somehow survive and appear to live the same way they have since people first came to the bayou. The Bronte family in comparison is the new age of criminal, the savvy, politics and influence driven kind. More akin to an oil baron than an outlaw like Dutch. Dutch's pride takes a massive hit when he is tricked by Bronte believing and is humiliated in front of the big players in St Denis and gang. The VDL gang fits exactly in between the night folk and Bronte family as they simultaneously seek to do things the old way and try to make an attempt at the new with the garden party. For example.
Chapter 5 - Guama. Though not a gang per say the idea of being taken slave and forced to work parralels the dream that Dutch had been pitching for years to the members i.e getting land and working it as honest and happy citizens.
Chapter 5 - Murfee Brood.
These are the extreme of what gangs will do to survive and a metaphor for what was to come for the gang. At times literal cannibals, their brutality and territorialism reflects on the gang as one by one they leave or are metaphorically cannibalised and spilt into small factions. Dutch falls to the side of Micah as he will always tell him what he wants to hear rather than what he needs too.
Epilogue - The skinner brothers are what to civilians the VDL gang may appear. Though nowhere near as brutal and sadistic, the further John and company move away from the outlaw lifestyle the more shocking the outlaws they come across become. Perhaps the citizenry the VDL gang has been robbing from see no distinction between a man who shoots a women in cold blood like Dutch did or shooting someone with arrows or worse.
good shit
I don't know why your reply doesn't have more likes but fucking spot on, dude. I've never thought about it that way but everything lines up perfectly.
Damn. You’re smart
i’m probably alone here but i think that part in the epilogue with the stand off is the best part in the whole game dutch realizing his failures and shooting micah and knowing things aren’t the same and going away till rdr1
John even asks him what he’s doing there.
Dutch simply tells John,”…Same as you, I suppose.”
Dutch at some point realized he failed Arthur. It wasn’t enough to change Dutch for the better, but what we see when he kills Micah is him letting go of the guilt he felt over Arthur.
It freed Dutch, in his own mind, from his own morality.
Dutch left that mountain an empty, struggling man.
When we see him again in RDR 1, he’s come fully undone. I personally choose to believe it’s because he finally realized no matter what he does or how many people he “helps”, he’ll never escape the judgement that’s coming for him.
In the end, Arthur truly was avenged.
The only unfortunate part is, it cost John his life.
But somehow, I think John wouldn’t have had it any other way.
The only reason John had a chance at a normal life was because of Arthur.
So to give his life for the sake of his own family, is as it should be.
Poetic, in a soul crushingly sad way.
I always love how he glares at John as he walks by. To me that’s a small hint that he only killed Micah for himself, not to save Sadie or John. Seems like he’s saying “there, you happy now you bastard?” Never committing to the fact that he betrayed Arthur and John by trusting Micah.
He walked away from the money. That's... something.
@@Michael15_25I firmly believe that Dutch would have killed Micah up there on the mountain top anyway, even if John and Sadie wouldn't have shown up.
Dutch knows that they have come to kill Micah. Yet when asked by John what he's doing there, he replies with "Same as you, I suppose.".
Dutch figured out that he had been played by Micah. And when the latter one returned to him years later for one final coup, Dutch accepted to get his chance for revenge.
Micah was a dead man the moment he reached out to Dutch again. I really wish the devs would have put a hidden timer onto that final mission:
If you beat the clock, you would have unlocked the ending we know, confronting both Dutch and Micah.
But if the clock would have run out before reaching the mountain top, John and Sadie would only find Micah's dead body, with Dutch nowhere to be seen, leaving them to speculate who might have killed him.
@@Michael15_25 I don’t think so, he knew he was the rat but it was too late. His whole team got destroyed so killing Micah meant very little because the damage was already done, that’s why he walks off saying nothing
You know its a good day when fizhy uploads a rdr2 video
You know its _ good, ___ ____ fizhy upload_ _ ____ video
@@Volti-Vagrayou having a stroke buddy?
@@stmsin I think he is
@@stmsin it was a joke .-.
like "you could also say ____ and itd be the same"
like just remove the underscores "you know its good, fizhy upload video"
broken as broken gets but it still does the job 👍
Mate is Friday. Course it’s a good day.
Dutch is such a great character, I love how he goes from a father figure to an enemy to arthur and john
Just found this for the first time not too long ago, but at Horseshoe Overlook, there's a note you can find that pretty much confirms the speech Dutch gave about jumping in the ground in their stead was rehearsed. Right down to dramatic pauses. Facing Dutch's tent, it's far back and to the left, next to some small busted up crates and small wagons, near the cliff edge. Left of the fire everyone sits at behind Dutch's tent with the picture of Charles' parents.
Just right from the beginning I wanna say that “Messiah among thieves” is an fantastic way to describe him, and IMO exactly how he views himself
Dutch is literally my favorite gaming character of all time, I played RDR2 first and I was heart broken by his downfall since I got no spoilers my first time playing the games. His fall from being a charismatic leader to a crazy man with nothing to lose is so well written and I’m writing this comment halfway through the video and it’s so well done.
Agreed, same.
its hard keeping your sanity when every plan that you have fails
Or when you take advice from a psychopath and ignore your friends
@@kurtomac2386 true, sadly some psycho's are very charismatic and can rally you to their side like our old pal Dutch
@@CaliIzActive Dutch was also a psychopath
@@Mewtwo_150i know, thats my whole point lol
That's the reason why you have to live without a plan, but with an objective and passion
Very great video as always! There's a few things I've noticed about Dutch's narrative that weren't mentioned in the video...
1. Dutch ran away from home as a teenager because he didn't get along with his mother. I think it's a possible hint that Dutch has always had this "If you don't agree with me then I'll abandon you" attitude.
2. One of Dutch's most obvious hypocrisies is his love of the finer things in life, even when the rest of the gang is struggling. He wears expensive clothes, jewelry, has a white Arabian horse, has the fanciest tent even before the upgrades, and, speaking of tent upgrades, it is very telling that you have to upgrade his tent first. Everyone else is living in worse tents with bedrolls on the ground, but Dutch's tent has to be upgraded first. How is he a "man of the people" when the disparity between Dutch's lifestyle and the rest of the gang is so huge?
3. There are signs even in the early chapters that Dutch uses people. Molly clearly loves Dutch, but there's a camp moment where Dutch flirts with Mary Beth. Arthur says that he used to be the "favorite", but that now John is the favorite son. Even his relationship with Hosea starts to look like this, because he's listening to Micah over Hosea's advice. It's like Dutch gets bored with people or maybe starts to distance himself from people who don't show 100% adoration and devotion.
4. The moment when Arthur is telling Dutch about the Pinkertons confronting him and he asks why Arthur didn't accept there deal to turn him in... I don't think Dutch was joking. I think he was already starting to act a little paranoid. Obviously, Arthur doesn't take him seriously, but on a second playthrough it kind of struck me.
5. Dutch's philosopher that he reads and quotes so much, Evelyn Miller, openly says to John that he's a fraud. Miller questions whether his philosophy is even worth much. Ultimately, Miller dies in his cabin while obsessively trying to finish his book draft, unable to let go of his true nature. So, Dutch's entire worldview is influenced by a man who admitting to not being what he says he was, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
6. John says that the gang has had plenty of money in the past, gotten close to buying some land and escaping for good, but Dutch would find some reason not to do it. Obviously, John is starting to piece together that Dutch never intended to truly "retire" from outlaw life. Which makes all of Dutch's big speeches about, "We have to do this crime so we can have enough money to escape!" even worse in hindsight. He is actively endangering these people and lying about his intentions, whether he knows it or not.
7. I actually think the reason John started to see through Dutch's lies first is because John is a father. When he starts to truly accept being a father I feel like he had to be thinking, "Hey, I would never put Jack in the type of situations that Dutch puts me and Arthur. So, are we really his sons? Or does he just say that?"
Dude.. your comment brought so many other realisations to this whole topic, I can see them all clear as daylight.
This should be pinned.
Love the last point. Makes a lot of sense. Well done
The more Red Dead content you serve up, the more I eat like it’s Pearson’s stew
Cripps stew****
Sorry but Dutch does NOT oppose the advancement of technology, he uses a semi auto pistol in RDR, he plays music on a record player, he's dressed like a fancy businessman would in the late 1800s/early 1900s. Ofc he opposes modern society, laws, regulations but that doesn't extend to going against technology.
I think he's against any tech that doesn't benefit himself first of all
Doesn’t Dutch use a silver Schofield?
@@collinfarmer4328gold schofield in rdr2 and mauser pistol in rdr1
@@collinfarmer4328my bad it is a semi auto in rdr1
Hosea's death, along with dutch hitting his head in the trolley incident is really what propelled dutch into insanity. Hosea was keeping the gang together snd after his death everything began to fall apart extremely fast
Another absolute banger. I think you have covered this topic previously, but even so it’s always nice to hear it expanded on. Also it’s always refreshing to see someone that isn’t attributing Dutch’s “change” to a single event;the trolley crash😂. Especially when both games obviously point out that it was always his nature.
my thoughts exactly yeah
I think he was always a no-good criminal, but he still had a shred of good and somewhat of a moral compass, but the brain damage from the trolley incident just exacerbated all bad personality traits he had and made him act more erratic and impulsive. Pre-trolley Dutch never would've goaded the young Natives into attacking the Oil Factory or retaliated against Bronte.
The crash wasn't the single thing that sent him down that path, but it may have sped up his decline some.
Right. The crash certainly didn’t help, but it wasn’t the single event that caused everything.
Dutch was always very paranoid, even since horeshoe overlook- If I'm not mistaken, there was a random dialogue encounter where he accuses arthur of following him- even though dutch is doing his usual reading (not like I was following him around and just suddenly he sat and yelled at me, this was an encounter that arthur interacted with.) Kinda goes to show that there was always a hint of this latent paranoia bug always in dutch, but it only becomes increasingly stronger as the game progresses
At the same camp, he also tells Arthur "I have a fear you'll betray me in the end, you seem the type" or something like that. He just... says that out of the blue. 20 years of loyalty completely forgotten.
44:31 honestly as heart breaking as this scene is, i love it a lot. Because i noticed Arthur isnt gasping for air, hes doing that sort of hiccup crying thing that some people do when theyre too upset to breathe properly (and having a lung disease definitely isnt helping out). And the way Dutch'd face just contorts, he knows Arthur is telling the truth, for how lomg he has is unclear, but he knows its true, but he doesnt want to believe it, he doesnt want to believe the fact that he threw away his closest ally for someone who was only there to stroke his ego, and had been the real traitor, that he had killed Susan for no reason, that he killed Molly over a lie. He doesnt want to believe any of it, because that would be admitting to being wrong for so long that he cant be sure who he is anymore.
Seeing the decline of the gang, Dutch, Arthur, all of them just broke my heart once I noticed it playing for the first time. The second time I played through and I noticed it more made me absolutely upset. The game is beautiful, and very very emotional lol.
Hosea's reaction @16:40 is very interesting to me. He was very worried about what would Dutch would say next. I wonder what did he do that had him worried like that?
Amazing vid btw
I think it’s just Dutch pointing out that Hosea has made his share of mistakes just like everyone else in the gang. Even though he plays as the voice of reason for Dutch, Hosea still has his moments where he makes bad decisions that heavily impacts the others, like getting involved in the family feud in Rhodes and going through with the Saint Denis Bank heist
Dutch's red flags from the very begining are so well done. I love his speech at the start, "stay with ME", putting himself at the centre of the situation and framing his leadership as their only hope.
Then when he asks why Arthur didn't take the offer to turm him in, he sounds completely serious, while Arthur takes it as a joke. Showing that the unending trust and faith Arthur has is a one-way street.
In a way, Dutch's decline is a good example of Vass' insanity quote since everytime something good happens to the van der lin gang it abruptly stops by O'Driscolls, Pinkertons, and the law, and which happens 4 times, and each time it ends the same. Until the final chapter where a different outcome but yet it feels at best bittersweet to the perspective of the gang.
Rockstar Games never disappoints when it comes to in-depth storytelling and structure. I'm excited to know what GTA VI will feel like.
It might not be as great as rdr2's story cuz Dan Houser Left But Still Excited!
@@chiavansalam6908true. At least, Michael Unsworth and Rupert Humphries are still there.
You'll have to wait another 10 years to find out
The likelyhood of gta6 story just being some woke garbage is very high. With people like dan houser leaving the company and investors having more say in the creative process. Those fucking useless black suits whose only aim in life is to destroy as much as possible in their pursuit of profit
@@kkonabill95 coming out in 2024 probably 2025 the most
Dutch is the quintessential definition of insanity. Expecting the same outcome over and over. Great flipping video 👍
I feel that dutch did care for everyone in the gang at the start you can see his good side when he helps Sadie and confronts her but as the story went on all the failures and stress began to get to him and after Horesa died and Micah whimpering in his ear didn't help either, the only why I could see the gang surviving is one Micah dies sometime at the start of the game or dutch takes a back sit and share the leadership with Arthur.
40:52
I love how Arthur was clearly on the verge of tears when he confronted Dutch. Arthur’s best friend and the only father figure he ever had left his most beloved son for dead if it meant he could escape. It is important to note that at this point, John Marston whom Arthur called brother was also thought to be dead, left behind just as he was. Arthur didn’t want to believe it but after Dutch left him he had no choice but to accept that the man he called father was using him and his friends to further his own ambitions at their own expense. And Arthur’s VA captured this perfectly.
In the camps, dutch has a gramophone that plays the song "flower duet", and that song is mostly played in movies when someone looses their sanity. I just found it kind of interesting and fitting.
I never seen nobody talk about this, after the first mission in rhodes Dutch and Hosea ask Arthur if he still wanna go fishing and after they are done fishing and they get back to camp Dutch says: "At the end I think I, I mean we are gonna be fine". It's so subtle but I think it shows that Dutch has always been like that
Omg I forgot about that line, such a good point!! That slip-up really shows the truly self-serving nature he hides
Yepo, he humbly acknowledges he needs both Arthur and Hosea by his side. It's very good moment.
This game has some complex relationships between people.. Micah is literally a yes man to Dutch and Arthur keeps it real thats why Dutch turned on him shows more about him as a character too.. best character writing in gaming history
I believe everything you said about Dutch is true. He always had a darker side to him, always teetering on the edge. But, I think Micah brought it out more than anyone prior, and Micah caused the end of the gang a lot faster than if he hadn't been in, I think most players if given the choice would allow Micah to hang in Stawberry lol. I also think that Micah was planning on turning Dutch in, which is most likely the reason the Pinkertons went to check on their loyal rat lol.
31:31 Whoopsy-daisy, lmao. While unintentional, this was a nice bit of comic relief within a serious deep-dive video.
One of the saddest thing about Dutch I think, is how in the start of the game during his speaches, everyone listens, but by chapter 6, there’s no one.
Very late to the party here, but the couple of books we find Dutch reading are valuable as well. He had no intention of going off to retire someplace. He was always going to find a reason to keep living on the lam, one way or the other
In my opinion, dutch was like that the whole time. He just had on a facade trying to seem mightier than he really was but in all reality he was like any other criminal but was able to hide it from the gang until plan after plan started going south. Then he just couldnt get a grip after that. Also in arthurs journal he says he loves dutch like a father but he loves hosea in mans ways more. He says dutch is something else. And hosea is kind and fair like a human being.
You truly make some of the best videos on this platform. Your introductions to videos alone are second to none!! Great stuff, keep it up!!
This is the greatest story ever put to gaming media
And Dutch is possibly the most fascinating character I've ever encountered in a game
I personally believed that it was a mental decline, sure using the game as a reference, he always seemed to be bad, but I always think back to the lore, where the van Der linde gang was around for 20 years, and operated throughout all those years.
I bet they killed innocents, but for me, when Javier says "he killed a girl in a bad way" and Arthur says " but that ain't like him though"
I think the stress of being chased, losing his friends, being made to look the enemy by society pushes him to be the monster that you see in rdr2.
And I think Hosea dying was the trigger point.. he thought "fuck this let's go down in a blaze of glory and take them all with me" and lost his mind.
That line from game of thrones comes to mind where dinkelage says "I wish I was the monster you claim me to be"
It has to be, why else would everyone follow him for near 20 years, if he was always like that, then surely, especially John Marston and Hosea, I just don't see them following him for 20 years straight and only question this one instance in blackwater.
Personally I just think he lost his mind.
It was never the O’Driscolls or Cornwall, or Pinkertons, or *spits* Micah. It was always Dutch. A self righteous, narcassistic, intelligent villian. Ambitious, callous, stubborn and sadistic, smooth-talking son of a gun.
I played the game 3 times and I took my time everytime. On the third just to be sure.
Point is : Micah *spits* was an enabler, a goddamn effective one at it. Dutch knew the things he did was wrong he just needed reassurance.
By the end, with Hosea dead and Arthur sick, there was barely anyone keeping him in check. No the tram incident didnt turn him, again he was always the villian.
By my third playthrough, my blood boiled everytime he spoke. I wanted to put him and Micah *spits* 6 feet under, while they were tied together in an inseemly position.
Oh him unaliving Micah? *spits* Show of complete dominance. The rat was almost as powerful as him and could done him in sooner or later. He cant have that of course.
Bronte is the kind of person Dutch wanted to be. O’Driscoll is the kind of person Dutch didn’t want to be. Micah is the kind of person Dutch is.
One thing that people don't seem to bring up is that Dutch was going to kill the woman on Guarma before she pulled the knife. He told Arthur that he had given her the last bar of gold from Blackwater, and when she asked for more he was already putting his hands on her.
I feel like Dutch is supposed to be a sympathetic character. That is charismatic and you can't help but like him a bit. But I hated him from the beginning. He seems like a shady hack that is only good at convincing others to do what needs done. It is hard to watch all the characters around camp that I fell in love with be manipulated and strung along by him.
I really like Bronte's speech about Dutch when they are on that boat. At the end he lost Arthur and Hosea wich was everything he had and died like nothing
Dutch is the only reason anybody in the gang is alive. There would be no Marston family if not for Dutch van der Linde.
He accomplished many great things in his life, only a moneygrubbing fool like Bronte could never understand them.
you left out the entries prior to the start of the game in arthur's journal about how dutch is not acting like himself since the blackwater incident at the beginning.
The rdr2 videos and your videos from Decades always show the great care and effort you put into your work, thanks for all the wonderful content
I am absolutely addicted to all your content since my second play through 2 weeks ago, keep it up man
One thing that I was thinking, what does it take to get a eyeball to hang out the socket by a tendon? I don’t think a gun shot can do this alone which could mean that the girls death was more malicious than we think
Crazy that you still makin rdr2 content AND its never bland, much love bro
I think among all the metaphors in the game (and there are countless great ones) the best telling Dutchs story is his outfit.
On the first look he clearly has the most elegant and expensive outfit which doesnt fit with any other outfit of a other gang member - and even is a bit paradox for his anarchist philosophy condeming capitalism, the new world and its society.
But if you look closely even in the beginning of the story you can see its a long worn outfit with holes. Each chapter it gets a little bit worse and when he is encountered the last time by John he straight looks like a homeless Santa Claus. The outfit represents his state of mind - its conflicted and its already falling apart when the story starts. Dutch wasnt perse evil or good in the beginning - he was already in his fall and represented a grey shade transiting to a evil selfish sociopath who lost control but couldnt admit it till it was far to late.
I recently finished it for the first time, fantastic game! you’re videos are really nice to watch while attempting a 100% playthrough :)
What baffles me to the point of nearly speechless is how Dutch can KNOWINGLY leave Arthur, as far as Dutch knew, to his death. And then MOMENTS later play it off and gaslight Arthur. Wouldn't Dutch have been surprised that Arthur survived?
Surely at that moment, he no longer cared about Arthur because he believed Arthur was a traitor and knew Arthur was no longer a sheep to his flock. Yet at the same time he seems to show attachment to him later on, if Dutch believed Arthur was a traitor why didnt he just execute him on the spot?
He never considered Arthur a rat , he just knew arthur was no longer a sheep in his flock like you said.
Because he didn’t want to be the one to pull the trigger
@@ntfoperative9432he knew Arthur was right why you think he walked away not looking and he killed him at the end he knew Arthur was right and Arthur would have finished Micah and dutch off if he wasn't sick
Arthur was the only one left that still tethered Dutch to his conscience. He couldn't kill Arthur himself, but when he saw Arthur about to be killed, he saw that as a weight off his shoulders. The more plans Dutch made, the deeper they dug their hole in running from the law and saving money to escape. Dutch was the most wanted of them all, and he feared being caught, and after seeing person after person die, he felt it was only a matter of time before he was next.
Tahiti was his ticket out, but after Guarma, even Tahiti seemed like a pipe dream, because of how he saw Guarma was, Tahiti could just be more of the same, and without everyone else who died and Molly, Tahiti would be a pretty lonely place where he'd have to reflect on his mistakes at the very least. That's why he didn't just take the money in the cave and run off on his own. Dutch knew he'd be on the run for the rest of his life, that's why he surrounded himself with bad men after he left with Micah. They were his shield from the law, and his shield from having to face reflecting on his mistakes. He wasn't just running from the law anymore, he was running from what happened with everyone else.
He had a ton of money stored away when John found him, enough to go anywhere he wanted, but he was still up there in the mountains in the snow, living rough, which was the only place he could be because of how big his gang was and how even more on the run he was after all those years doing bad things after Arthur died. He left the money just sitting there in that chest in the shack and walked away from John, because being a bad man wasn't even about the money anymore for him, it was about running from the mistakes of his past.
The more brutal and immoral Dutch became, and the more brutal and immoral people Dutch surrounded himself with, the easier it was to avoid reflecting on what he himself did, because all the people he surrounded himself with afterwards were more low down than himself, even though him being their leader made their brutal crimes also his by proxy.
I love stumbling across a new series to binge. Fantastic work!
I firmly believe Dutch was always like that, he just became more aggressive when he started to lose control of the gang. I think the statement from mature John marston in RDR 1 sums it all up "it was just an excuse". Dutch's rebellious nature was always present; From apparently running away from home at age 15 to running with another gang in tall trees in rdr1.
Funny how Dutch calls Micah “a fine man” so early on and knowing the judgement of his gang and how they feel about him it’s another sign that Dutch sees himself in Micah and only he likes him and explains who Dutch really is as a human, his gang deserved better Arthur John Charles all cared about one another Dutch saw them as business partners manipulating them all to follow him he was always a terrible person worse than Micah
"Everyone thinks they're the Hero of their own story."
- Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2.
I think it's intresting that that the people who knew him the longest (Arthur and John) say that Dutch was always like this, just hiding it and the people who haven't been in the gang as long, like Sadie and Charles, say he declined.
I think because Arthur and John knew Dutch longer, it would make sense for Dutch to always be this way, just under a mask. After Hosea died, Micah stepped in and instead of being rational and coming up with counter arguments like Hosea would, Micah fed Dutch's ego and pushed him to take away the mask
I just realised something.
Dutch makes his “can’t fight gravity” speech and jumps off a cliff intending to land into the river below. He thought he could survive that and he was correct
Then, at the end of rdr1 he makes the same speech and jumps off a mountain. Now my question is this:
Did he intend to kill himself at the end or did he think he could land in some snow and dust himself off?
The difference between the van der linde gang and odriscolls can be explained like this
When we do the train robbery in chapter 2 we dont kill any innocent civilians
But there is an encounter where odriscolls are robbing a train and they kill many dozens of people seriously if you go into the train you will find heaps of dead bodies of passengers
So that is the difference between van der linde gang and odriscolls
But didn't Dutch kill that girl on the ferry? And what about the Guarma chapter where he kills the old lady? The only difference I can see between the 2 is that Dutch's gang is more unified and together compared to the O'Driscoll's.
@@jrb2454Dutch killed them though that's different from the gang as a whole unnecessarily massacurin people for shits and giggles
I love how the videos are long and they go into depth about the story. Keep these types of videos
Excellent editing Fizhy! The last lines from RDR1 John about their way of lifes when they were outlaws…its hits even harder!
Always thought you should make a video like this.Thanks!!
Dutch definitely has cult leader vibes. Those he chooses to take on and how he preaches to them ride a fine line between doing nice things for those suffering and enslaving them with "loyalty".
I do think that Dutch was always willing to kill and steal to survive, mostly for himself, but also for his "family". Dutch needs a gang as much as they think they need him and so he did what had to be done to get what he wanted.
It's my belief that the trolly crash caused a severe concussion which lead to brain swelling ( you can see Dutch's lack of confidence in the cutscenes for the S.D bank job ). He was doing extreme things that he might of thought of doing, but never actually would have, to doing \ saying things with very little control. He lost his dearest friend, most of his gang, and it was all falling apart around him.
He was no angel, but I think his turn was a mix of a brain injury, PTSD, and deep seeded grief. He questioned himself and therefore questioned everything he thought he knew and that is why Micah had his ear. It took Arthur's dying words to wake him and the fact that he went back to do what he should've done long ago goes to show that, even if it was mostly for his ego, he actually cared.
i was literally just looking for videos on dutch, amazing timing
Been subbed since 2019 & you’re still one of my favorite narrators on youtube, as always W video
Love the videos- I could watch these all day (and sometimes do)
I think the head injury was bigger than you think it was. Brain damage consistently turns decent people violent.
By far best video yet brilliant from start to finish love your in depth videos on certain characters, key points of red dead redemption keep up the brilliant and amazing work my man 🤜💥🤛
Thanks for making these videos, i really appreciate it. I come back to re-watch them from time to time 😅
amazing. as always. i love how much work you put into your videos, and through every rdr2 vid i learn something i’ve never noticed. you have an amazing talent man. you’re what a look forward to at then end of a long day.
The lore of this game is so well structured it give me chills. I always wonder what was Dutch like prior the events of RDR2 and what the gang was doing those 20years.
Maybe the Tahiti was the friends we made along the way.
The beauty of Dutch as a character is that he keeps you on that balance for so long, even though from a different PoV all together you could fully write him off, but when you are closer to him you understand the complexity of him, and their situation. In that regard I always felt their situation slowly pushed Dutch to be someone he hadn't been yet, and the Blackwater heist was the beginning of the pressure building up to much and slowly revealing how far Dutch was willing to go. Then you have to consider the noticeable change in him we see through out the game. We watch him slowly move away from protecting the gang as things continue to unravel, and you can't point on just one thing causing that... because it really is like his entire world is caving in on him.
I honestly wonder how Milton and Ross just happened to stumble upon Arthur fishing with Jack.
Just a near thing that it's the first time we see Ross who's the side kick and doesn't really talk except to jack, to the end of the first game jack finds him by a river shooting ducks and kills him lol
the story of Red Dead Redemption and Dutch in particular is a better tale of freedom and control than the whole Assassin's Creed franchise
BTW, i am an old viewer from when the channel only had around 1k subscriber and Fizhy's main content was AC. I havent revisit the channel in a long time and its really nice to see it grew so massively. big up Fizhy, keep up the great work!
you’ve honestly become my favorite youtuber from these
What a great early birthday present 🥹 I love your videos and have been on a RDR kick again lately.
I’m boarding a flight later today from the US to Italy for a vacation and if there is any content creator who’s videos are going to make this long flight a cake-walk, it’s Fizhy. 👏🏻
Go with my blessing!
@@Fizhy Thank you my dude!
ive watched at least a handful of these over the years, prolly under ten in total tho
as time goes, channels grow, the scope of the vids have seriously grown- from visual to writing
absolute 12/10, absolutely irrefutable
i just finished playing rdr2 and then i found your channel, im going to binge all of your rdr2 bro, your videos are soo good
These videos never fail. Thank you so much
The amount of time he puts into his videos is just amazing. Keep it up