AMD made a terrible flaw with this design...
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- čas přidán 1. 10. 2022
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A little clarification on the hooks remark at 5:55. If your cooler uses the hooks OR retains the AMD backplate and doesn't replace it, then it should be compatible. Just wanted to clarify that. Not many coolers use their own backplate on AMD. Most AM4 coolers will be just fine but not ALL.
I like how you explained the flaws of the AM5 on its mounting and its IHS, very educational. If it was a Linus video he will tell you first his sponsor and get his sleeper host to explain this.
Can we buy these at T.J. Maxx?......
😋😋
Are you sure you used the correct mounting bars for the D15? Noctua themselves say that the D15 is AM5 compatible without replacing any parts.
great vid .. shame though there is not many ways to fix the issue that doesnt void the warranty or nerf performance on the cpu !!
I guess your NH-D15 is old. From Noctua “SecuFirm2™ multi-socket mounting system
Noctua's SecuFirm2™ mounting systems have become synonymous with quality, safety and easy installation. Supporting Intel LGA1700 (since 2021), LGA1200, LGA115x (LGA1150, LGA1151, LGA1155, LGA1156) and LGA20xx (LGA2066, LGA2011-0, LGA2011-3), as well as AMD AM4 and AM5, the SecuFirm2™ mounting included with the NH-D15 is straightforward to install, provides perfect contact pressure and will stand the test of time even under heavy use.”
I wish they hadn't worried about cooler compatability and just made the thermal transfer as good as possible.
No their firmware with the boost algorithm where it's supposed to hit 95c by design to win at benchmarks is why it overheats. Redicilous and I hope AMD and Nvidia with the 4xxx series both suffer in a loss of sales. In 2014 when I got into this hobby Intel CPUs only used 65 watts and AMD was the overheated pig with a bloated 100 watts. Wow have times changed
@@timothygibney159 ?
@@timothygibney159 "Redicilous".
@@timothygibney159 95 is not overheating. AMD says 115 is when its crashes. but yeah constant 95C doesnt feel right even if its ok
@@timothygibney159 But it doesn't if you delid. Yes, 95C is the target with the default HS, but they could have designed a different HS for a lower target temp at the same performance.
In the best case that could have just required new mounting brackets for existing coolers.
Hey Jay. NH-D15 (and any Noctua Cooler) works perfectly with AM5, as long as it has the AM4 bracket. I've done all my Ryzen 7000 testing with NH-D15 with cero issues. You just happened to have an older NH-D15. Noctua provides AM4 bracket for free, btw.
both of my nhd15s came with am4 brackets, he must have gotten one that sat on a shelf for a VERY long time.
I've had my NH-D15 since I was on a 5930k in 2014. $9 USD for a an AM4 kit, and my NH-D15 is STILL going strong on my (AM4) 3950x.
Noctua will provide an AM4 bracket to people.
Actually he can use the adapters from the NH-U12A with the D15, is exactly the same one.
This seriously needs more upvotes, the NH-D15 has been the very best cooler I've ever owned, liquid cooling included. I was a massive liquid cooling fan before I bought my NH-D15.
Because it's so old you need to get an updated mounting bracket for AM4/5, these coolers made before January 2019 do not include the mounting bracket but Noctua will provide for free if you can show them proof of purchase.
Little update for Jay and other viewers. I just bought a Noctua NH-D15 for my 5800x 3d in august. The latest versions come with a diagonally slotted bracket for AM3 or AM4. If you buy new you're good to go. If you buy used, beware because the old ones clearly didn't have the slot on the bracket.
You can get it free from Noctua. Thermalright also provides free upgrades for older coolers.
I bought my nh-d15 at march of 2016, have contacted Noctua for the parts. They dispatched the kit same day with express courier.
GN is planning to do a regular IHS - lapped IHS - direct die cooling comparison once the der8auer delidding tool arrives. Probably taking off a couple of millimeters from the IHS. According to Igor's Lab (and der8auer) it seems to be 3.42mm thick.
The NH-D15 qualifies for a free mounting kit if you have a version that came out before the AM4 socket war released. The AM4 mounting kit uses the stock rear plate, thus it will work on AM5 as well.
still using my NH-D14 going strong since AM3 will go for another 6 years on AM5
Interesting, thanks for the heads up. Mine was mounted on a FX-8150.
Thanks! That was really confusing. I just bought an NH-D15 for the 7700x. The Noctua website says it is compatible. I guess mine will come with the AM4/AM5 mount.
I have a NH-D15S from like six years ago. I was just looking into this the other day because I was thinking of getting a 5000 series amd cpu. So if I get the mounting kit, it should also work on 7000 series? I should be good with this cooler for a while then? I'm still unsure which cpu to upgrade from a 8700k, this has all been a clusterfuck recently
@@eduardobarca They started including the AM4 mounting kit with the standard NH-D15 quite a while back. So yes, it would have to be really old stock if you get one without it included. :)
I believe Noctua has an AM5 bracket available now that should make all their stuff compatible. Good news for my next build plan
Noctua will always have a usable bracket free shipping sent to you :P
Is it possible that the extra thickness could also allow for more headroom for vertical stacked dies in the future without having to update the platform?
WHY MUST you make me remember, using the flat head method to put CPU coolers, I will NEVER forget, cracking a motherboard when the flat head slipped off that retention device. Way back in high school when I built my first Athlon 1.4ghz (computer with money earned bagging groceries).
IF eVGA wasn't going through it's current issue, I'd love to see KINGPIN play around with some of the ideas Jay mentioned.
I don't miss the feeling of terror as I put my body weigh onto a long screwdriver to push down on the spring, flexing the board like crazy as I desperately try to get it hooked
@@karlschauff7989 that was the fun part of the build, well other than cutting yourself on those old cases that has sharp edges...
Oh my lord I forgot that, but I hated that too! Never any accident with that, but did fry a cpu because I didn’t get the core voltage and got impatient and went to highest v.core voltage. Learned my lesson. Never did crap like that again.
Ah yes, the horrors of AMD socket a. Apart of stabbing the motherboard, you can crack the die or frying the cpu too
Don't feel bad. An Athlon XP 2400+ was the very first cpu I learned to switch out on my computer back when I first discovered AMD. So imagine a person who never even built a pc let alone switching out vital parts learning how to switch out a cpu on the only computer they own. Honestly, I probably never even would have discovered AMD if it wasn't for my Pentium 3 burning out on me.
We went to the computer repair place across the road from the shopping plaza to have replacement Intel parts priced out and when he told my mother how much they were going to be it was an instant NOPE. Then he suggested a slightly cheaper alternative to Intel that was just as good. That's how I found out about AMD. :)
I find it interesting that despite the 2mm too thick IHS, that CPU can run that much load and clock at these thermals. I originally wanted to get a Ryzen R7 7700X, but now I'm rather considering a Ryzen 7 7800X3D or something like that early next year because honestly, I intend to game on the system and if that thing is anything like the R7 5800X3D but with the thinned IHS (since 3d cache will make the die thicker anyways), thus compensating slightly for the temperatures, it could be an absolute beast.
7800X3D is truly a great CPU to buy if you just play games + DDR4 based system is much cheaper if you build a brand new pc
@@wexa89 you meant 5800X3D
It thermally clocks to 95C. Do you get amazed that your legs reach EXACTLY to the ground, not above it, where you can't walk any more??
I think you are able to override TJMax in the bios with lower temp if you want. Of course that will somewhat lower performance, but that may be negligible. I am coming from an older setup so I may just go 7000 anyhow and set a max of 75C and see if it still performs even within a couple hundred mhz.
7800X3D doesnt exist
I'm curious if the 3D cache is taller and the extra 2mm was actually chosen to accommodate the x3D chips
No, the die of the 3D is exactly evenly high.
Optimum Tech put out a fantastic video over undervolting these AMD 7000 series CPUs. I'd love to see that kind of undervolting paired with the delided CPU
FAQ: Which Noctua CPU coolers are compatible with AMD AM5?
"AM5 (LGA 1718) is AMD’s upcoming socket for its next-generation Ryzen 7000 (Zen 4) series processors. Please refer to our socket compatibility overview in the Noctua Compatibility Centre (NCC) to see which Noctua CPU cooler models support socket AM5 out of the box or via mounting upgrade kits.
In short, all Noctua coolers and mounting kits that support AM4 are upwards compatible with socket AM5, except the NH-L9a-AM4 and the NM-AM4-L9aL9i.
All Noctua AM4 mountings except the ones of the NH-L9a-AM4 and the NM-AM4-L9aL9i attach to the threads of the standard AM4 stock backplate. Since these backplate threads and their pattern are identical on AM4 and AM5, our AM4 mountings that attach to the standard AMD backplate also support AM5.
This means that all SE-AM4 models as well as all Noctua multi-socket coolers purchased since 01/2019 already support socket AM5. Multi-socket coolers purchased before this date that have already been upgraded to AM4 using the NM-AM4 or NM-AM4-UxS kits also require no further upgrades. Older multi-socket coolers that have been purchased before 2019 and have not yet been upgraded to AM4 can be made compatible with AM5 using the NM-AM4 or NM-AM4-UxS upgrade kits.
The NH-L9a-AM4 and the NM-AM4-L9aL9i are not compatible with AM5 because they require replacing the standard AMD backplate with a custom one, which isn’t possible on AM5. A dedicated AM5 upgrade kit for NH-L9a, NH-L9a-AM4 and NH-L9i coolers is in preparation." so if you have the AM4 mounting kit you should be good
Jay would have bought the NH-D15 he has before 2019, I have several NH-D14 coolers bought in 2020 and afterwards and they all have the AM4 compatible kit which is now compatible with AM5
@@prabodhaelangasinha9523 So all the newer NH-D15 will work with AM5 ? , I wanted to stay with Air Cool and always like the NH-D15
@@marcosbotello5999 yes I've got NH-D15 on mine.
also, if you fill in a form on their site with proof of purchase of both cooler and AM4/5 board… they send you a kit for free.. Now THAT is premium customer support! (Also picture of both products count if you don’t have the invoices)
Thanks Noctua Marketing Dept.
Worth pointing out that with a taller z axis, if they wanted to do 3d v cache on later sku's it would be significantly easier to add. Just something that crossed my mind while watching debuars video
Ho, what an interesting idea.
And as they want to maintain AM5 for a while, it gives them the opportunity for Ryzen 8*00 series to actually have more stacked memory or else.
It actually hypes me up even more for what's coming next.
It can be a possible. Maybe the 3d vcache will have better temps?
good point
Nice thought!
It also doesn't hurt AMD, either. Delidding "gains you more speed", but that makes AMD better over Intel, AND it means you have no warranty now, with having shaved off the IHS.
I like the coolers with the hooks because they level the cooler contact surface with the CPU contact surface, they do so automatically, applying even pressure all over the contact patch.
I recently looked at the EK website, because I like their coolers and other bits; and they have an AM5 specific CPU block - currently in preorder - from the Quantum Velocity2 product line.
I have looked at the mounting instructions and it uses the outer 4 holes and the standard AM5 backplate. This block is larger than a Velocity 1 block and actually extends out over where the hook system mounts. Instead of through bolts screwed in from the top/front, it uses an engine headstud type arrangement and you fasten it with a nut on the backplate side of the motherboard.
7:35 actually they have been saying all along only AM4 coolers that don't use a custom backplate will be compatible, but Jay must have missed that part of the announcement.
Well then... repeating for the people in the back doesn't hurt, I guess. 😅
hm basically all coolers still compatible
Sure, but it also seems that many cooler companies are behind on knowing if their specific AM4 cooler brackets are AM5 compatible and when/if a new bracket is needed.
Exactly
ok that makes sense. I used corsair elite AIO and it uses the 4 screws, no backplate and its been perfect.
It's going to be really interesting to see all the top enthusiasts tackle this issue. If the thermals we're seeing really are because of the thick IHS, i'd have to imagine AMD will have to rethink it if they see similar to better performance with the lower temps.
i dont think they will do that. they will say, that 95c is fine and thats it. maybe with a refresh but not now.
Intel will see increased sales thanks to this. Not that many people are going to mess around with the chip and cooler to get around this.
they are certainly not going to completely redesign their etire cpu line and manufacutring process because enthusiast want lower temps, especially after seeing that it runs perfectly at 95c under a sustained load.. sure maybe on there next gen cpus they will do that but I bet you everything i have they wont change the IHS
@@beefwantko7269 I am tired of hearing about how only "enthusiasts" care about this. I don't want my fucking 700 dollar cpu reaching 95c as part of then. The CPU might be able to take it, but the cooler and the motherboard around it won't.
This will be the first time since AM3 I will be choosing an Intel CPU for my next rig. AMD should have known better, given how they had temp issues in the past.
@@jimcanterak7349 but intels do the same to. Most people don't even monitor cpu Temps.
I screwed in some 1.25" M6-32 screws from Lowes in from the bottom for my EK Quantum Velocity. I placed the block down along the screws, added the springs that came with the cooler, and then added two nuts to each screw end to keep tension on the block. Working well so far.
Note that the nuts are flush with the tip of the screws, not tightened down on the block frame.
I watched DerBauer's video already, and I think you did a really good job of "lowering the entry level" for viewers of the content with this. You captured his points well, but catered to your audience (less likely to get into the extremes of "enthusiast modding", as well paid full tribute to his work! I'm looking forward to seeing more and more what people do with this platform, going forward, as well as how it inspires AMD to do better ^_^
Well now I wanna see what Der8auer learned. I'm not planning on moving to AM5 until the 3D Vcache models are out, so hopefully by then his mounting mechanism improvements will also be out.
This is the way. It's called the bleeding edge for a reason.
The fact that delidding even has such a big impact is worrying, in addition to pricier mobo, ram, cooler compatibility issues, etc.
@@haraldhimmel5687 would assume they did it to have some room in the future for 3d cache, otherwise its an oversight ... Lets see
@@TrueBark Sorry about stepping on your toes, I posted before I read yours, post deleted. Yes, I thought that might be the case (no pun intended). I hope so.
@@haraldhimmel5687 Why? WHY is it "worrying"? Were you worried that you could delid and get 400MHz more, at the expense of more power used (because P=IV^2)?
15:00 NH-D15 has an upgrade kit if your cooler is older than 2019 (it is clearly mentioned on their website), I have the same cooler that I have had since 2017, so with AM4, I had to order that $8 kit called NM-AM4 to make it work! it also has short and long brackets for cooler orientation!
He has the older one I have it on my 5950x
@@MR_DOME yeah, that's what I'm saying, I did a build for 5600x and I ordered that kit (I heard you can get it free but didn't manage to get one because of where I'm living, this free kit will cost more than the one from Amazon lol)
If you bought the cooler after 2019 (2020 for safe bet) you should be fine.
@@almothafar YUP, they sent me one free I had to show the purchase receipt on an NH-D14 I had bought for an intel socket (3 CPU's) in 2013 then switched to AM4 in 2020. About to use it on the 5800x3D as well. Same cooler for almost 10 years isn't bad. They sent the longs and the shorts.
@@almothafar yep, you can get it for free (if you respect some of their conditions). I got an extra one, cause the guys at the store where I bought my NH-D14 didn't knew if it came with AM4 mounting or not. Just had to fill in a form, attach proof of purchase and like a week later got the kit in the mail for free.
Man I almost went with your XC8 block when I was trying to get things ready for this generation but wanted to be able to see the coolant being my first water cooled build so went with XC7 instead. Hope I’m good if I end up deciding on AMD. Having a hard time deciding right now.
Very helpful video Jay, I now know my EKWB AM4 CPU waterblock (which uses a pre-drilled metal back plate) is NOT compatible with an AM5 motherboard, unless I can drill and tap the 4 holes needed for the AM5 socket retaining mechanism, just checked.
Funfact, you can still use AM2 coolers from the Athlon64 days on a AM5 socket as longs its using clips. Personally I use a AM3 cooler (from a Phenom quad core) on my Ryzen 3 3200G in my HTPC because I had a Noctua fan for it (and it probably cools better, the stockcooler was designed for a 120W CPU and has a lot of copper) .
Unfortunately they did change the socket holes between AM3 and AM4 so you can't use Ryzen screw-in stock coolers on Athlon XP for example. Tough you can use the Ryzen 7 clip coolers on them which is kinda funny.
Now that is compatibility goals!
Actually many of the stock coolers is quite ok today, especially the Ryzen ones that came with the higher tier zen 2 105w tdp cpu's. It's both a good looking cooler and would be more than fine for an 5800X3d upgrade as it isn't overclockable. Not sure how good the Noctua ones are compared, as I havn't had one myself but I know many of them fair quite well even against especially the 240 Aio's. And honestly much of the reason people choose Aio's today is 1. The bling factor of RGB fans and Cooler block and 2. The reasonable price and easy installation compared to a custom loop.
P.S. Jayz : I liked the comment of Corsair have your logo on the thermal pad .. lol .. You get to see it once when you unpack it and replace it with Thermal Grizzly 😆
Challenge: Run the 7950X PBO enabled with a Zalman cooler!
athlon xp? you mean athlon64 on 939 right?
@@MuhammedGemci Do Zalman even exist anymore ? I remember those Copper wing fan coolers. I actually had one of those many years ago on an Nvidia graphics card. Was way better cooling than those flimsy small standard heat sink and fans that was used back then. Was an Asus 6600 card iirc, where the fan gave up and we had those Zalman coolers where i worked so I mounted one and even I didn't get to 6800 performance I was actually able to OC th card 30/50% up for a respectable performance boost before I got graphic anomalies from the memory boost. It came with heatsinks for all the memory chips witch wasn't actively cooled back then. And the cooler actually looked cool 😄
You can get an AM4 bracket kit from Noctua for the D15. Also, all the new sold D15 come with the good brackets.
Shout out to Phil, Your cuts are so good. I love when you do the little "office" like zoom in, then the quick cut. Fantastic. Just wanted to give some deserved props on your attention to to detail. If it was Nick, props to you too lol
I use a corsair AIO which uses a screw-type hook so I'm good for now if I decide to upgrade. I see where Jay is coming from on the mounting mechanisms that use the hooks. Some of them are fairly easy to connect to those hooks, I can see how it's not ideal compared to the 4 mounting posts.
what aio is it??
@Jackson Vondemkamp It's the H150i Elite Capellix. 360mm probably overkill, but should handle the 7000 series without issue.
@@abidlack1980 That’s the same i just got haha. Glad to know it actually will work.
Noctua always just sends new brackets for old coolers (for free). Got them for 3 AM4 builds
Exactly
Yes they are. I got my 12th intel brackets for free. That's why I like to buy thier products, great quality and after sell support.
Thank goodness for the JTC block being compatible! I was worried about that cause I have it in my rig and wanted to use it if I upgrade to am5. Thanks for putting my worries to bed Jay!
this makes me wonder if a part of just making the z height a little thicker wasn't just compatability with older coolers, but also to leave extra height room for the upcoming 3D stacking. just so they would have additional room for the cache with a smaller ihs on those skus....
this video makes me feel significantly better about my deepcool ak620 zero dark purchase (it uses a mount very similar to the NH-U12a) , nice to know it will be usable once i jump from 5000 series to am5 in a year or 2
I'm wondering if someone will sell replacement heatspreaders with vaporchambers that fit in the 3mm thick top part
I think for the NHD-15 you need the nm-am4 mounting kit.
Well, i think it's possible they also took some height space for their 3D cache CPU
But i think it would have been smarter to increase the internal pin and raise the internal of the cpu to have the core as high inside as possible
Quality video. Am intrigued to know what backplane you're using to mount test Motherboards onto instead of a test bench.
Jayz, your videos are the bomb!! jayz, I just bought a new msi mpg x670e carbon mobo and I bought the corsair h150i icue lcd liqid cooler... I saw where you said the back plate doesnt come off on the mobo....am I still going to be able to use these two together?? Curtis from Newport Rhode Island... thx jayz your the best!
But if they didn't make coolers compatible, people would be screaming that now you have to buy a new cooler - which would probably not be the case, but you'd need an AM5 compatibility set. It was a good time to do it, but before launch a lot of people were worried about cooler compatibility. It's sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Also I do remember AMD saying that coolers without custom backplate would be incompatible. Though it was easy to miss in all "most AM4 coolers will be 100% compatible" hype that I've seen.
I'd much rather replace the cooler than to have a CPU that is running at 95c 24/7.
Some people will need new coolers anyway, since these CPUs want to run so hot.
@@Stubbies2003 then use the curve optimizer and run it at 70 degrees with no performance loss.
@@WayStedYou only if you don't care about noise
I never damaged an AMD motherboard with a screwdriver because I could never bring myself to use one to force the mounting clips down (been building PCs since the old Athlon XP days as well). I just spent a bunch of extra time fighting with the clips with my hands. Got my first Noctua cooler (an NH-U12S) a few weeks ago and fell in love with how much easier it was to install, even compared to other brands of aftermarket coolers I've used before.
I stood behind my Dad while he was trying to install a CPU cooler, with a screwdriver. ...he managed to slip 3 times and rammed it full force into the board each time.
I was shocked after the first time, by the third time i was just in complete disbelieve that he wouldn't stop, just stood there with open mouth unable to even speak, i mean what are you going to say at that point?
The board was of course dead... i never let him near a PC with a screwdriver again after that.
I am always puzzled by these examples because every bracket I had for that had a slot that a screwdriver would fit into...so if you got the right size flathead it was literally impossible to slip because it was wedged down in the slot on the spring arm...
@@ZeroB4NG built my first pc, did that exact same thing and was so terrified that I killed the motherboard. Luckily I didn't and it's still going strong after 2 years so I'm just going to assume I got extremely lucky.
@@Raven1024 Some people are not mechanically inclined and have no business…
@@thetranya3589 But everyone can read directions
So, I have not watched the Der Bauer direct die cooling video yet. Would you believe that (when available) it would be possible to direct die cool the CPU with a waterblock (when they release)?
Bought the Thermalright AM5 Secure frame (black) for my 7800X3D. With the Lian li Galahad II Trinity Inf 360, and used the TF7 paste that came with the Thermalright bracket. Stress tested the system for some hours, and cpu goes 82/83 tops. While gaming 70/75.
Love the content as always. Entertaining and informative, great combo! As you say, the IHS is a lot thicker, wouldn't lapping a little off the IHS help reduce temps as well ? Obviously need to be careful of the height tolerances and contact with the cooler cold plate.
Problem with that is like de lidding the cpu doesnt that void the warranty ??
In essence the cpu is flawed which i dont think should sit well with consumers paying a premium for a cpu that you cant cool effectively because it is not made for the standard 7000s only the 3d v cache versions
@@volvot6rdesignawd702 Absolutely will void your warranty - No one should be de-lidding, lapping or anything else that modifies the structure of the CPU, UNLESS they understand the consequences.
I wonder if the reason why they designed it like this is because of the upcoming Zen4 3D. The v-cache sits on top, and while Zen3 v-cache was done in a way that didn't affect overall z height on AM4, maybe on Zen4 it will affect z height. So in X3D Zen4 processors they will just use a different IHS and it'll end up being thinner than regular Zen4 IHS.
Theorizing of course. But it's plausible.
This was my first thought as well.
Also, AMD had to "shave" the dies of the 5800x (and probably the IHS thickness) so the 5800X3D was compatible with existing coolers, and maybe "shaving" the CPU dies added a cost they don't want to incur this generation (so, presumably, they could release more 3D V-Cache models, too).
There is still the IO die, and all does need to be height matched. Plus shaving dies are good since the transistors are on the bottom of the silicon and silicon transfers heat worse than copper.
@@bayanzabihiyan7465 Copper interconnects, remember. Copper is a good thermal transfer medium too.
Jay, this video was extremely helpful for me. I’ve been dealing with overheating issues with my Ryzen 7 5800X CPU. I had an MSI 240 CPU cooler installed. I upgraded to an MSI 360 CPU cooler and moved its location to the front panel instead of a top on my Corsair 4000 D. During installation I followed your advice and double checked all the connection points for the cooling plate to the CPU and it runs fantastic. Thank you so much!
What temps were you getting? Mine runs fine in my 011 Evo with the EK 360 AIO installed at the top of the case and the cpu runs at 70 degrees in the summer and 60 degrees in the winter.
ok, serious question because i have a 7950x, where can i get this IHS shaving kit and the tools to utilize it and this mounting bracket for aio's/coolers in general? cause i game on my system also. I went with the standard x variant for the multi-thread horsepower (also the x3d chips were not out yet), but i know i can get better single to 8 core results and this would help immensely. it would also make any curve optimizer setting i place way more effective and stable.
There was a similar issue with the initial release of LGA 1700 where the standoffs were not the exact height that they needed to be. The Z-axis is different on LGA 1200 versus LGA 1700.
Great idea for a video and nice to see your own version of a production cooler block will fit and has very nice quality of life features that still work on AM5.
You have to think about the future v-cache models! The tolerance stack up gets pretty tight if you don't have the extra thickness to be able to remove later from the IHS. They made it work with AM4, but it was a limited run. I think making the IHS thicker has to be considered as a potential learning from the 5800X3D launch.
Came to say this. They would save the money and make it thicker of the could. But they made it ready for 3dvcache added size and heat
oh that's actually really smart. yeah they would need the height anyways.
And where is your evidence to back up these claims?
@@Cxs1a3 I'm not trying to make a formal proof of this idea for my university professor. I am just suggesting that most of the time companies are not making stupid decisions without thinking about them. I want you to consider that a thicker IHS may be an intentional design decision based off of lessons learned from the 5800X3D launch.
@@Cxs1a3 where's the evidence to suggest it's a mess up? We aren't in court... we are going over possibilities looking for the most probable scenario.
I have that same screwdriver. I bought mine at Lowes. I love that thing and keep it in my laptop bag at all times. I also have a LTT driver on the way too. The cordless driver works great for rack mounting gear because you normally need to hold the gear in one hand and try to get at least one screw in and a manual driver makes it very difficult.
The first thing that immediately came to mind the first time I seen the IHS design of this line was that it is just ridiculously too thick which is likely part of the thermal issue but anyway it is impressive once delided how far the temps drop.
Exactly . Now Jay is Nostradamus after De8auer delidded one and cut temps 20C.
Bet you it's for all that 3d cache on 7000x3d
@@RATTL3R186 20°c in prime95.
In gaming applications the result is less than 10°c
@@saphziod8685 2gigs of stacked cache please!
Barely more than the intel parts when it gets delidded?
I'm thinking the thicker IHS is for the future. If they plan to keep the socket for a few it gives them room to have taller dies later on and keep compatibility.
Taller dies like the stacked cache ones that are coming. The main issue with their 5800X3D experiment was there was a lot of waste and dead parts due to how much they had to shave off the die and IHS to get it to fit.
@@falcie7743 this is true. They have made even more room to add all the goodies into the new 7000 series x3d:)
So crazy idea. One that I hope someone like Jay might try. but what about lapping the IHS by like 2-3 mm and using off the shelf UNC screws on on the coolers that screw into the backplate to adjust the z height to see if we can get better performance/temperatures. expecially since it would be "safer" than delidding and more accessible to average enthusiasts that don't want to ruin the substrate or CPU by accident like derbauer did.,
The D15 uses secufirm2, the same as the NH-U12A, you should be able to use the adapters from the NH-U12A on the D15 (the current version of the D15 already comes with them). If you have an old D15 you can ask Noctua to give you the adapters for AM4/AM5 for free.
I was planning on waiting for the 3d to come out to make my upgrade choice and this video make me happy that I am doing that. hopefully everything is settled by then
Regarding AMD backplates and EK blocks, I'm pretty sure my current setup has my EK standoffs straight into Asrock's backplate. The hole spacing and threads were the same so i just used the stock backplate. I don't know if the same would work with AM5 though.
I did the same. Since the screw layout of both backplates are the same the only variable could be the length of the standoff from the backplate on the CPU side. But in 99% cases it's the same
I've ordered the 7950X, and I'm about to wait for the release of the Die Guard from Der8auer to use it properly and with Conductonaut LM. A brand new NH-D15 is already waiting on the table. Only thing that scares me is to delid it, but I'll have to be brave enough to do it anyway, cause there's no way I'll keep a CPU running for years with permanent overheating values...
It's been a while since I've had to take mine off, but I think the NZXT Kraken Z73 uses the same mounting ring with built-in screws as the JTC waterblock. I guess that means it'll also be AM5 compatible, right?
JayzTwoCents I think the best test for comparing the thickness of the IHS would be to sand it down 2MM so it leaves the same factory thermal interface between the die and the IHS. The only variable in this case would be the flatness of the stock IHS so maybe do a stock test along with a lapped test and an overlapped 2mm test.
If I had the hardware id try it myself.
The 2mm might cause the the top of the sanded down IHS to be below the top of the substrate retention bracket. You might be able to get away with it by modifying the cooler just for the results but the modification might be destructive to the AM4/5 mounting hardware.
The cooler you used would then need to accommodate the 2mm washers to take it that much closer.
Doable, but a bit fiddly.
@@Postman00 you just sand the bracket as well
@@stephen1r2 Think mark think.
you need to sand the bracket down, not lift it with washers.
I actually have AM5 with the Arctic 360 AiO and the Arctic offset Mount. Like this it works really good
whats an arctic offset mount
Arctic, the AiO maker has a mounting bracket good get the cooler on top of the CCX Chips themselves
@@seyedchavoshinia8839 What sort of improvement did you get temp-wise?
I've the 420 one for my 5600X (yeah, overkill I know, but Amazon sold those on sale for 75 bucks in april, probably to get rid of the inventory with a defective gasket, mine had one, and I could not resist) and it's very nice, easy to mount, no RGB octopus, just one fekkin 4-pin plug, powering the 3 fans AND the pump.
@@prinsipe4life its an optional mounting method with am4, its in the instructions with the arctic coolers, it shifts the whole cooler down a little and improves temps by a few degrees on am4 because the coldplate is centered over the cores that lie underneath the heat spreader
I thought the 2 or 3 degrees that was mentioned in Der8auer video was because he was using a different Not For Sale yet Liquid Metal, and the 20 Degrees Temperature difference was due to the Fact that he did Direct Die Cooling - There wasnt a mention of Temperature with IHS but he did say it wouldnt help having a thick IHS
@JayzTwoCents What do you think, could it be somehow possible that there might be a revision of the new CPUs with an IHS wich is only as thick as it requires, "ignoring" the requirement of compatibility to AM4 or maybe some kind of aftermarket product to replace the IHS with a thinner one, for the folks which might be a bit scared about exposing the DIE itself?
Yes Tech City, experimented with under-volting a 7950X. I found the results impressive to say the least. It does seem that AMD and Intel are just add voltage to achieve speed.
I saw that vid and you might lose 200-400ghz when under-volting but it's definitely worth the temp drops.
Additionally, everything above 200W is diminishing retruns (judging by bildzoid's 7950x power limit vid).
If you run the 7950x at 150-175w and do an undervolt / use pbo2 , you'll probably get the best value from it.
In terms of Performance/watt and Temps
voltage adds stability, under-volting is not just going to work the same on every chip, that is silicon lottery, just like overclocking.
and from earlier launches we know that some motherboards were pumping too much voltage into the CPU on early BIOS versions...
New platforms always seem to have such issues.
@@theghostleader140 Worth how? if you lose performance to gain nothing, how is it worth it?
@@DuBstep115 Electricity is not free if you didnt know that.
I'm thoroughly expecting for the 8000 series CPUS that all of the current AIOs will still work but there will be some sort of adapter kit because the IHS will be thinner. Thinking about my h170i all Corsair would have had to do would be make a set of screws that are slightly shorter than the elite retention kit that comes with the newer Corsair AIOs.
8000 series... you live in the future. monkaS
Yup, a new set of chips even based on the current 7000 dies with a thinner IHS along with exchangeable back plate and chip retainer for current motherboards seems the way to go and bypass the AM4 cooler compatability issue.
NH-D15 no long brackets? I have the long brackets installed on my 5900X build, maybe yours went missing.
It's a good thing I had the long brackets since the short brackets conflicted with some motherboard components.
I would also be super interested in hearing about the thinner IHS test. Because having 2mm of thickness purely for the sake of backwards compatibility seems like a terrible idea.
Honestly it seems far more reasonable for them to have released a spec for the mount to the motherboard manufacturers on how to raise the socket 2mm and say "this is a thing that will allow AM4 cooler compatibility" and either make it an optional thing that motherboard manufacturers can adopt if they so desire or make it a required thing so they can say "and AM5 is compatible with AM4 coolers*"
I'd expect board manufacturers will make altered versions eventually that exclude the AM4 part
Hey Jay, not sure if your reference to the few degree difference was technically accurate. I believe der8auer was discussing the difference between the standard conductonaut and the version he was using which is preproduction. I think it is therefore difficult to separate the impact of liquid metal vs direct-die at this time. Can't wait to see your testing!
Yes, he was talking about the difference between the new, yet to be released liquid metal and what is on the market now.
I'm wondering if they are somehow planning on making the next generations CPU's taller in which case the taller ihs could just be a stopgap to insure longer socket compatibility. 3d v-cache maybe?
I have seen this hypothesis on a lot of thread. But this beg the following question :am4 have a 3d version of the same height. So why?
@@atavusable Only time will tell. When planning for the future its probably better to have too much space than not enough as long as its not affecting performance too much.
Some possibilities that pop into mind:
Maybe they planned for something else with the 3d v-cache but ran into height constraints that they want to alleviate in the new platform? maybe some layer between the others to help with cooling perhaps so they can still be overclocked?
even more v-cache per CPU?
maybe its not 3d v-cache at all and they have something else planned, beefier chiplets maybe?
more room for beefier iGPU stuff?? (wink wink)
Possibly. Doesn't hurt AMD either. A laptop doesn't get the IHS of a desktop CPU, and so won't be affected, it STILL boosts to beat the Intel equivalents for games and multicore (RPL may beat it on multicore, for SOME apps, but for games, it is not likely to beat the AMD competition by a fraction that means anything). However, if you delid the CPU, you can get it even faster, but lose your warranty. Zero problems for OCers anyway, who delidded every earlier CPU too.
@@atavusable No, they don't. What they HAVE is a shaved CPU that just about fits a VCache in the same height. See that shaving? This is why they have to decide beforehand what chiplet will be made VCache for the 5800. Not with the AM5 version. Just take the chiplet that the 7950 or 7700 would take and put VCache on it. No shaving required.
hey Jay,what is that plate where u put the mobo on for testing,because i always use a bench.thx
I found this out the hard way recently. Ended up buying a AM5 Short Backplate and the Thermalright AM5 CPU Contact Frame for Secure Frame Kit Anti-Bending Buckle Black. All so i could run a basic waterblock
but for normal users they probably would just use the 105 watt mode, if most of the media showing how to use it, but rn seems most medias doesn't show off the 105 eco mode
Well yeah, because rarely anyone uses eco mode right out of the box outside of SFF builds. Waiting for the Hardware Unboxed review for Ryzen 7000 using eco mode.
I think Steve from Hardware Unboxed pointed out that the ECO mode wasn't readily accessible for reviewers. They had to go digging deep into the BIOS to enable a few things as opposed to simply hitting a toggle in Ryzen Master. This has been fixed since then.
Another reason could also easily be that there are pretty much no sales in "we hit 95% of our competitor's performance at 50% of the power usage". No one cares about that when actually having to spend the money. That's why Intel can sell 250 watt CPUs. That's why Nvidia can sell 450+ watt GPUs.That's why AMD is now pushing 170+ watt CPUs.
Jay. Have anyone considered that the 2mm of the IHS might be there until the 3D cache models come out? That would allow for bit thicker silicon instead having the problems 5800X3D has?
The thinned silicon is a feature, not a bug.
The thicker IHS is to handle higher in-rush thermal load. For the first 500us or so it's a HUGE benefit to have that extra thermal mass.
It's helpful to think of thermal mass as a function of time... the more mass you have the longer it takes for a given amount of energy to warm it up... but it's also longer for it to get cooled back down because the difference in temperature between the IHS and heatsink is smaller. This means an AM5 CPU can have far higher burst clocks because of the thick IHS, but will reach higher temperatures at a given power level than an AM4 CPU in sustained loads given the same cooling capacity.
Since most work is bursty by nature, the IHS is mostly beneficial.
everything points to that reason ! but if that is the reason that is a huge f..k up by AMD for 2 reasons 1. the 7000series are in essence flawed cpu's 2. is it going to make a much of a difference with 7000x3d because the 5800x3d was a hotter running cpu anyway
@@baguette1308 Nope, acc. to Igor's Lab raising the socket is not possible due to various reasons. Would have also been my first idea, but it seems this would causes problems with the plastic socket and the bigger length of the pins.
@@volvot6rdesignawd702 No, it is YOUR huge f--k up, for 2 reasons: 1. You claim "it is flawed" but that is ALL you have, no evidence it IS flawed. 2. 7000x3d doesn't exist yet, so AGAIN you are making claims out of nothing other than your head.
@@markhackett2302 wow butt hurt much !!
If people a struggling to cool it with 360mm aios and its proven de lidding them is dropping the tempts down / and IHS is too thick id say thats a flaw in the cpu !!
when was the last AMD cpu you had to use eco mode to bring down the temps !!
ive had the 3700x 5600x and now have the 5800x3d ive never had to undervolt or use a eco mode on them / use huge expensive coolers..
To me thats a flawed design in the cpu!
Unless their intention was to make it harder and harder to cool and introduce eco mode on Ryzen master almost negating plug and play options !!
i just replaced a corsair aio that the pump failed and replaced it with an uphere heat sink and boy do those need alot of pressure to snag the plastic hook. i never use a screw driver. i just kept doing a lot of hand and finger exersises over the years. now i can push them on with no problem. doing push ups on your fingers helped the most 😃
Hope this helps... According to Noctua the D15 had been shipped with an AM5 (and AM4) compatible kit, since Jan 2019, that's on their website. The older ones obviously don't have the correct kit, like the one you've got. I bought the chromax black version of the D15 which they say is compatible. Some clarification maybe needed. Either way Noctua are offering free kits for those older versions that are not compatible, or you can just buy one.
A benefit of a thicker IHS is that it is less likely to warp. LGA 1700's warping IHS problem probably would not be as bad if it was thicker. As for the attached backplate, one of the most annoying thing is trying to keep the AM4 backplate in place while trying to attach a cooler to it if it is already in a case. The attached backplate does make mounting in a installed motherboard much easier.
Some mainboard manufacturers used something like double-sided tape in the beginning. Then they refrained from it because users complained that they could not take off the backplate.
I wonder: AMD's backplate is really good, but some cooler manufaturers decided to include their own bracket. Usually controllers look at every cent and cut costs wherever possible. Then why produce an additional backplate?
@@johnscaramis2515 So the problem there would not be AM5, it would be that the replacement the cooler maker provided was not compatible.
The thicker IHS for the first AM5 CPUs may simply be to account for the upcoming CPUs that have a bunch 3D V-cache stacked on top. AMD had to thin out the Zen 3 CCD and cache module in the 5800X3D to make it fit. I can imagine that having to shave off part of the silicon to make things fit isn't ideal.
This is what I was thinking.
No it's not. 3D Cache doesn't change the height of the silicon dies. That was the whole big deal about it.
@@WimukthiBandara You sure they will not do that on the new ones though? The fact they had to fit the cache on top and not change height for the 5800X3D might also partly be why they had to reduce clock speeds. If there is room in new IHS they can avoid this and just make the die taller.
You don't need 2mm for that.
@@Gazer75 And what about the IO-Die?
I would be curious what would happen if you put a Cooler Master 212 air cooler on one of the new 7000 series CPUs. How would the performance change and would it be able to keep the CPU cool?
Where did you get that device your motherboard was sitting on. I need something like that for when I swapping out motherboards or testing them
There's a lot of Coolers on am4 that use the backplate but not the hooks. You take those off and screw into the backplate. Those are perfectly compatible with am5
which is what my current EK block does especially after he almost blanketed all EK blocks not fitting
This might have been said/asked already. It is inevitable that a 3DX version of the new 7000 series CPU's will be released, was the extra thickness already put into the IHS so it can be thinned when the 3DX part is put on top of the die keeping the same height as it is now?
I was wondering this.
For 5000 series, the dies were the same thickness. Sounds like the main reason it’s so thick is just to maintain comparability with coolers. Sounds like a waste to be backwards compatible in that area to sacrifice thermal efficiency. Maybe they’ll add like 1GB of L3 cache to make up for it 😂
@@bighammer3464 Nope. The 8 core chiplet had to be thinned first.
@@markhackett2302 nope. you didn’t have to do anything to the cpu to get a cooler to fit. The ihs was just thinner
@@bighammer3464 Nope, you and me didn't have to do anything, but we don't make AMD's chips, AMD does. And they had to thin those chiplets first.
I bought the nzxt kraken z73...there will be a specific am5 bracket but this is not included in the current kits. I requested one from support and I am now waiting on them to send it so I can finish my build...it's been 3 days and no shipment confirmation
Jey, I think that cooler mounting pressure inspection by looking at thermal paste layer thickness when you remove it is flawed simply because paste (unless it is very old one) still have some movement while you loosening the mounting screws to remove the cooler, is it not?
So, Jay is experiencing the "cutting edge purchasers" issues that he talked about in a previous video... that these new chips + plus new socket: they're going to come with bugs and some issues which AMD will need to sort out before the next update release (the 3D cache ones next year)
Not sure how much they can "fix" when they've committed themselves to 4+ years on these socket specs.
@@1steelcobra tru
I'm waiting for the crazy cooling experiments on these chips by Jay
May I know where did you get your motherboard holder? Looks pretty cool. Also, when would your zipped hoodie be in stock?
could you drill the holes into an EK bracket and tap them ? Or does the shape not line up for the needed placement ?
EDIT2: As stated in the replies to this post, the NH-D15 does now come with AM4 mounting kit as well as the Intel kit, and is fully compatible with AM5. Jay has a *very* old model of the cooler, which is why his didn't include the AM4-kit.
Original post and first edit:
The NH-D15 has a separate model for the AM4-socket, which lets you mount the cooler whichever way you'd like. That's why AM4 is not mentioned on the box Jay has, it's probably an intel one. I think you can buy the AM4-compatible brackets separately. I also don't remember if it has a separate backplate or if it uses the one that AM4 comes with.
EDIT: There's another comment here by Stunlokked that has Noctua's statement on AM5-compatibility, which confirms that the AM4-compatible cooler of NH-D15 will work on AM5.
this is still incorrect. all regular nh-d15s sold after 2019 should come with intel and am4 mounting hardware(which works on am5 boards(i know because I was able to move from intel lga2011-3 to am5 without needing to request a compatability kit from noctua)). The am4 version of the nh-d15 only has amd mounting hardware in the box, they leave out the intel hardware in that edition. And noctua uses the stock backplate that comes on am4 and am5 boards.
The special AM4 edition of the NH-D15 was only a temporary product to make sure people could buy one for their new PC knowing it was compatible. Those were later phased out once the regular model started including them. Earlier owners could also request a free mounting kit, no proof of purchase required, as long as you could show that you physically have the cooler and bought an AM4 motherboard + CPU.
I'm very curious to see what temps you'd get if you gradually thinned down the IHS. Granted that would make mounting a pain in the rear end, but would be a great experiment.
@JayzTwoCents, could you add an Ice Giant ProSiphon Elite to your testing list as well for cooling?
It's cool many will offer free kits though. I take it height wise and cold plate covering dies will be fine, though new AM5 designed coolers with new mounts and better aligned cold plate would be more optimal. As I wait to see X3D I plan to get a new AM5 cooler anyway.
Here's a thought: Could AMD incorporate a vapor chamber inside the IHS and make the top of the IHS copper?
Perhaps they could release two SKUs of each CPU. A normal IHS version and an upgraded IHS like just mentioned. I'm not an expert in coolers and heatsinks, so I have no idea if this could be feasible.
or make thicker PCB and thinner IHS
copper is more malleable
I'd be afraid of the vapor chamber becoming a mini explosion if it reached 95*c anyways
A vapor chamber needs somewhere for the water to rise to so it cool and then fall back down again. They're like a lava lamp. Short distances simply wouldn't work, because the temperatures would be fundamentally the same at both points.
D15 has come with am4 mounting hardware for a long while now and got the hardware if it didn't come with them if you contacted them. The one shown here is an extremely old one (before they started doing the black even) before am4 really took off to have the hardware included.
yeah his kit was an old one. I just got 1 and it had the right hardware.
The heatkiller IV what i have kicking around in a box, since threadripper, is compatible with AM5 because its uses standoffs wich screw in to the original backplate on the AM4 mountingkit.
Not all custom waterblocks are incompatable, more like most of the EK waterblocks are crap.
i love it that you talk about trying to mount the cpu fan with a flat screw driver. just like i did when i was building a friends pc, and the mounting metals were too tight. and his motherboard got a little bit..... screwed :) (it was fine. only a bit of the color came out)
Glad I'm waiting to really fully build my new system for a few months as I wait for some things figured out.
Same. Gonna start ordering parts around Black Friday and building sometime in December hopefully. Good luck
same plan gentlemen
You could 3d print a bracket that's a few mm lower (or halve its current thickness) than the IHS and then sand down the IHS to the 3d print and see how much of a difference that can make.
Just an idea before you de-lid it.
Der-Bauer did kill a 7950X doing so after all XD (Not to say you will have that issue, I am sure he will fix that bug with his de-lid kit.)
7700X.... not a 7950
A 3d printed bracket would not have the necessary strength to hold a cooler with the required compression to achieve effective thermal transfer.
@@benaguilar1787 nono, it might. Depending on how thick you printed it, the material, and if one was ok with only about 500 grams of pressure... Of course at that point you would be better off just running the motherboard flat on an open table and just gently setting a heatsink on the cpu with no bracket...
@@benaguilar1787 dude - i've got 3d printed mounting kit for my motorcycle panniers. I thought it won't hold much because it's plastic and doesn't look solid at all but it can easily hold 50kg O_o.
@@benaguilar1787 if you printed it so not all of the force is relying on layer adhesion it'd be more than strong enough
I recently got a be quiet dark rock tf2 and I found the temps are too high on my 5600, but if I press down, the temps drop by about 10 degrees. So now I am looking at getting one of these contact plates... hopefully brings my temps in line with where it should be. I am currently getting 60-65 idle and 80 load... but the ambient is about 18c when I was testing at night with the window open.
I am sure when 3D V cache is integrated, they will shrink the IHS. That or they will engineer a way to keep the same IHS thickness, but dramatically lower the resistance
der8auer's direct die mechanism is going to be amazing and also a great improvement in terms of temps
The amount of people who are going to delid their 700 dollar cpu is going to beyond marginal, like 0.0001%
@@DuBstep115 those that are going to buy knowing the issue are mostly going to consider delliding
@@AeiKei Yup, this is exactly my case, actually ^^
The EK Quantum Velocity2 block for AM5 uses the integrated backplate. They already have a video on it, but the block itself is still in the pre-order stages.
EK's AM4 blocks will fit fine, they just need 4 screws with 6/32 threads.
Unrelated to this video but several months ago you built an i9 setup in a Evolve Shift XT and then a second video improving the cooling in same system. I would be interested in an update to see if a cpu cage like the thermal grizzly you tested elsewhere would have an impact on that little itx board.
@JayzTwoCents try using a ryzen 3000 or 5000 IHS on the ryzen 7, would that for debauer be the test, instead of find ing something that has the thickness of the 3000,5000 ihs ?