This YouTuber “steals” his views.
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- čas přidán 8. 02. 2022
- link to darkviper thing - (search on twitter)
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edited by: / politesl
#ludwig #moistcritical #react
I think Ludwig is becoming incredibly and positively self aware through this channel. He makes bold claims, and then holds himself accountable to them, which makes him better because he has held himself to such a standard with video evidence. Which in turn makes him a better person and content creator overall. I love this channel because it’s philosophical (in a sense), and encourages good behaviors among content creators.
There's no accountability though
You wrote this at 1 am and I'm reading at 2 am so idk if I'm not making sense or you aren't lol
among us
among us
Im convinced this channel was purely created through inspiration from Charlie. He said "Charlies channel is so sick, bcuz he just wakes up and talks about whatever the fuck he wants to", and a few months later he makes this channel. although i gotta say, hes great at it, and his cadence is perfect for this typa content
Cant wait to see Jackie Chan standing ominously in the background from now on
i literally rushed to watch the stream for that sole purpose
like schlatt's pope
I had to go to bed before Jackie got revealed and then I was watching the SAP video on the vod channel passively in the morning. When I finally looked at the screen I was like how long is QT gonna stand there waiting for luds attention? And then I realized it was Jackie lmao
In all honesty, what I enjoy about react content is simply knowing a creators opinion on something. It's the same logic as showing your friend a video you found funny and hoping they like it as well. Ik streamers aren't your friend but that's not really my point.
Its just like theyre my friend! but theyre not my friend tho haha thats not my point. but it is my point. except not :P
These creators aren't your friends tho. This is a new seperaye problem you've brought to the table
Yeah sometimes I like to watch reactions on music videos because it makes me feel like I didn't watch it alone, but with a friend. I know it's not the same but it makes my depressed brain feel better
Sometimes, it’s good to come to your own conclusions :)
Streamers are also making ridiculous money from showing you the video.
"Everyone is going to draw the line below what they do" Really spoke to me tbh. I don't think there's anything wrong with reacting to content especially because that's more eyes on said persons content in the first place. I always love these types of video as it feels more like an open discussion instead of a piece of content.
MitchGamesPog
DarkViperAU spent a lot of time in his video explaining how "more eyes on the content that reactors watch" is completely meaningless since they steal so many impressions from lots of creators.
@@ziwuri Impressions that probably wasn't gonna go watch them in the first place anyway. It's like me not even bothering about this drama until Lud reacted to it. I was not gonna watch DarkViperAu's video in the first place and thus he didn't lose any impressions by me watching lud react to it.
@@zachdiaziii9747 impressions and views are not the same thing
@@zachdiaziii9747 1. impressions are not views. A view is clicking on a video and watching it, an impression is it showing up on your home page.
2. His point is that any react video is taking away the opportunity for original content to be shown instead. That that particular persons content, any content
lmao Atrioc getting called a "reactor" while almost all of his content is original with A LOT of effort put into it. If you look at his channel's most popular videos, they're almost all either Hitman speedrun videos, Marketing Monday videos, and his story-form videos. There's like one video of him reacting to the Twitch Iceberg video and that's it. It's so sad and it makes me feel really bad for how much effort Atrioc obviously puts into his content.
fr dude that pissed me off so much
He said the same with MoistCritikal. I mean if you just do a little bit of research you will know that Moist is always doing different content (Comics, Music, Podcast, Activities with other creators like Dale, He was in a short film last year, Owns an esports team, Does experiment with stupid stuff, the list goes on...) and DarkviperAU just considers him a reactor when it's clearly not true.
@@bryanmunoz775 don't forget that he was the star of the hunger games. (I'm sorry, I had to, I've seen this sort of comment so many times and saw the opportunity and couldn't miss it.)
@@serafina2643 People always talk about Charlie in the Hunger Games but never talk about the time Charlie was in Killer Bean
Smh Marketing Monday is stealing valuable impressions from Microsoft that they paid 100 billion for.
2:10 I think Ludwig doesn't understand what DarkViper meant his video series against reaction content given Ludwigs poor explanaition
I remember back in the day react channels were straight up all hated. Suddenly everyone is okay with it, right down to the point it's okay to watch a video whole-sale and not even link it.
I think Dark Viper has a point.
HONESTLY!
Yes, Dark Viper has loads of good points, I haven't really heard anyone debate that point. The problem is how he presented his opinion, all the misinformation he included seemingly deliberately, the sweeping generalisations, the insanely over the top hyperbole etc. Dark Viper is basically a how-to guide on how not to present an unpopular opinion.
@@gazzwars5355 Except he didn't do those things, people just thought he did and then accused him without bothering to do a second's worth of research.
It’s kind of like putting a frog in cold water and slowly turning the heat up.
@@casual_speedrunner1482 But I've read the small book that he wrote and... he does. He does all of those things continuously throughout, and in fact he pretty much always does when he's fired up about something and has a strong opinion. I used to be a fan of DV, but I've begun to realise he's basically a belligerent child.
This is the first drama ever where all the people I watch are involved. It was hard to fully agree with either moist or dark because they were both flawed, but your video spoke the most facts and even adding in new info giving insight to youtuber growth through react streamers
Dark Viper makes a solid point- but literally f-Ed it all up by being upset, attacking, and grouping ppl in horrible groups. Assault? BRUH
Not to mention slavery as well
He wasn't actually calling them sexual assaulters, he was basically saying "your understanding of consent is fucked up because you can take it and use it to justify sexual assault"
I'm not sure how I feel about the analogy tbh
@@amaryllis0 The analogy is technically true, but serves no purpose to the point. I think he wanted to make this type of behavior look bad, but ultimately he only made an offensive analogy
@@amaryllis0 yeah, it is a very gross analogy tbh. comparing SA, one of the most traumatic experiences someone can go through to getting content stolen from you it's insane. even if he didn't mean it like that, it's so weird that he's tripled down on it instead of recognizing why it comes off so bad
@@amaryllis0 it's not a good analogy. With sexual consent there are so many other factors at play. Things like tone of voice, word choice, and body language can tell if someone consents to sex. Those don't exist over the internet between two random people who barely know eachother. Asking is literally the ONLY way to consent with react content.
And that's not including the fact that the person being reacted to isn't able to respond in a timely manor, or has passed away. I mean hell some people don't even GIVE contact information.
Let's also not ignore the fact how serious sexual assault is. That shit sticks, I've been sexually harassed by a Freshman when I was a Senior in HS. I'll never forget that even though it was "small". I'd much rather have a video of mine stolen (they're not that good anyways) than go through that again. It's sickening and disappointing, you can't Capitalism and posture as being a Leftist while also making analogies like that without at the very least fucking apologizing, doubling down instead?
I know I'm just a 20 year old burnout. But god Im so disappointed in Dark Viper. He's so much better than this drama and if he doesn't stop he's gonna tank his career on this stupid hill.
I’ve said it in comments before but DarkViper does himself, his points, and his community (of which I consider myself a part) significant disservice by failing to realize it isn’t just what one says… but how one says it. The way in which he originally wrote his essay and then responded comes across as anger riddled and personally attacked. Moral catastrophizing doesn’t aid in fixing the problem… it simply curses the dark as opposed to shining a light. Perhaps he genuinely does believe in his core that Charlie, Mr. Beast, Jacksepticeye, and others who do react content are bad people… placed into his meticulously defined category in perpetuity. If so then that genuinely saddens me.
*czcams.com/video/Q7USStVAS_Q/video.html*
Yes yes :)
darkviper L fell off lmao
Matthew
I agree, but its also worth noting that his approach has actually got these creators (and their audiences) to engage with the discussion. It certainly got more traction than the less inflammatory video from Jay Exci released a week ago.
Similar to the "I made a secret CZcams channel" video, they are going to notice videos that are directed at, or about, them. He has got two large CZcamsrs to reassess their approach to what little react content they do produce. It's hard to argue the approach isn't somewhat effective.
Sadly, this approach is only going to have an impact on those streamers who have the introspection and humility to make those changes voluntarily, and unfortunately it is going to be to the detriment of those more ethical creators. It's going to take the platform changes Ludwig suggests to have any real impact.
@@cavias4741 i don't think he need to use those weird analogy and responding in angry like behaviour. I think JayExci video can get more traction if its get into many streamer/youtuber's attention.
I truly just can't understand why people can't just make their OWN content. If you wanna react to someone's video then ask them first, don't just act entitled. It all seems very self explanatory
This channel makes me glad to see the smart and conscientious, journalistic-integrity, somewhat politically aware side of Ludwig being alive and well. Also love being reminded that Ludwig is a Tom Scott stan
He isn't a stan, he just quotes him, fantasizes about him, loves him in secret and maybe sometimes places his own face next to him. He is just being supportive, stop being weird that's totally normal behavior.
@@mahdimirzade Totally. I do that all the time, idk why people find it so weird
Well he deosnt know his own tax income, so...
Journalistic integrity while he verbatim says “creators SHOULD take advantage of other peoples content for their benefit because everyone does it”. Hmmm I’m not sure that is integrity.
His voice is annoying, he presents himself in an annoying way, and he exposes himself for stealing other people's labor day after day.
What I love about the Mogul Mail videos is that it’s so level headed and genuine that it’s hard to disagree with it. Most of all, I appreciate the fact that the opinions are conveys open mindedly and with room to question.
It is not wrong to disagree, it is wrong to believe your own opinion is the only one applicable to the situation.
Ikr? Makes it feel like an ethics class lol
@Dessy---😍 holy schmoly
I had a video go semi-viral last month and multiple big social media profiles contacted me for permission to repost/react to it. While I do feel the video would've done great on its own it definitely provided a boost in the analytics and the lifespan of the video. The claim that reactors are essiantly throttling views that would go elsewhere is absurd. People tend to watch only a few things they enjoy and have interest in and reacting allows that audience to see content they most likely never would've seen or got recommended. If all big react content creators just stopped another would rise to take their place. Reacting as "lazy" as it is has become one of the most popular forms of content because it's so easy to consume most people would pay for the type of exposure these top reactors bring. A few years back it was near impossible to grow on a platform like youtube because a majority of the userbase only watches established channels. What reacting has done is, not only allowed smaller channels to find an audience, but showed a large group of people that smaller creators CAN and WILL make good content worth watching. I understand Dark Viper believes in a giant creator economy where views are metric that can be analyzed but at the end of the day thats not really the case. A lot of people watch reactors because they like the reactor not the content being reacted to. The "views that would otherwise go to different channels" would, in this case, go to Ludwig anyway and if he reacts to a channel that other people find enjoyable he's dispersing more of his audience to others. In my opinion reacting is a blessing and helped me grow further than I thought I'd ever be able to go.
Exactly! If react content was somehow banned youd just get an influx of other low quality easily reproduced content, what jaystation does could technically be considered original work by these definitions, yet imo his content is far worse than any reactor, and besides at the end of the day its just opinion, who the fuck am I to make a judgement that jaystation's content or anyone else's should be deplatformed because its "low quality".
Dark Viper never said that the person being reacted to has no benefit in the react content. He said that the person being reacted to will gain from it, but all the people that aren't reacting or being reacted to are being stolen impressions. Also, just because one of the few people someone watches hasn't uploaded or isn't streaming doesn't mean that they will go do nothing for the amount of time the react video would have taken. They will go watch someone else, or play a game, or do something completely different. But the point is that the creators of the content they are consuming would benefit, not whoever did the lazy option and reacted to it. The argument Dark Viper made was not about if all big react creators stopped, others wouldn't take their place. The argument was about whether it was a good thing for the content space as a whole or not. If all reactors stopped, you said you would go watch ludwig anyway; well then you are agreeing with his point. You would go watch ludwig or someone else doing something original meaning the person who put the work in to think of the idea and execute it and getting the benefits from it.
Hasan reacted to Jay exci's house video in front of 40k viewers but he only gained 200 extra views and 7 subscribers from it.
Growing through people reacting to your content can only work if the person reacting actively put credit where credit is due and transform the content enough to incentives people to return to the original video
@@buziat2328 youre missing the point, what makes "unoriginal" react content any more scummy or worse for the creator economy than jaystation's calling Etika in 3AM videos? Whats stopping me from making a legitimate argument that banning these types of channels would improve the overall quality of the content on a platform? But thats the thing, even though it might, who the fuck am I to say what others should and shouldnt watch.
@@MoarRobots I watched that vid, while Hasan should definitely credit, the graph for the video went 50 daily avg views, then 1 day 200, then again back to 50, there is no evidence Hasan being a bad reactor towards that vid hurt it in any capacity. And if youre gona say "well even though the immediate short term data shows that, Hasan couldve potentially taken away from future potential viewers who wouldve discovered it themselves" to which I can say maybe the extra 100 ppl will stick around and boost jay's new content giving it a slight edge in the algorithm, or any other bs that argues based on "potentiality". If I destroyed your lumber, youre not gona charge me for destroying a house even though that lumber was going to be made into a house by you.
I think something a lot of big streamers could do to appease the creators of content they're reacting to, is straight up link the video in chat and ask their viewers to play it in the background on mute while watching them react to it.
I know that if I made a video that got watched by someone like Lud or Hasan or whatever I'd be pretty happy, but it would suck if I knew 20,000 people watched it live but the views only go up by a hundred or so. I know there's no way to guarantee all 20k people would actually do this, but I think a large amount would.
I think an extension or in-platform feature to simultaneously watch the Livestream and watch the content being reacted to on stream would be the best solution so the individual creators would get the engagement and the reactors would act as a gateway for people to find content and smaller creators to gain traction.
I doubt a platform would ever do that, but thats actually a really good idea, maybe some way of instead of the streamer sharing their like google tab, it embeds the original video directly into their stream, so you are actually watching the video through the stream. I'm not a programmer tho so idk if it'd be possible lmao
Kinda like a Netflix party set-up?
Hot take: I don’t think react channels are that bad. Main reason being: half the shit I watch streamers or CZcamsrs react to I would never watch myself. The only reason I watch the reactions are for the reactions, for the “company” of having someone view it with me. Or perhaps I already saw the original video and want to see someone else’s take on it. Additionally there are many content creators I have begun watching because of said react content. Sure there is a lot of bad with it, but I genuinely believe most viewers on both platforms have similar stances to this. I don’t think reactors are bad just that they could be better
^^^ Same, I watch all the Kurzgesagt videos on my own (who is by no means a small channel) and will still watch when Lud reacts to them just because of the entertaining postulating between him and the chat
I couldn't find the words to say this, but this guy did ^
@@InsertNameHere2768 This is a huge flaw with Viper's logic. React content is also synergistic with the original IP being reacted to. I watch a lot of people reacting to movies like Star Wars, because It's hilarious that there are people who still have yet to learn that Luke is the son of Darth Vader.
Same, look the pandemic isolated a lot of people, and watching things with a bunch of others is comforting. Some of my favorite memories of last year is relaxing and watching Hells Kitchen for an hour or two after Puppers played DBD on Twitch with the rest of chat. It's fun to talk with each other, and it does allow the streamer to be a bit more interactive with the chat. I'm not saying it's not lazy or bad for the platform, but it does have benefits.
DarkViper is acting in bad faith, he knows the value of the reactors, he made his vids just to farm drama.
I just feel darkviper's morality POV gets thrown away when you consider that he's edited the document multiple times since he posted it while calling out people for 'taking it out of context'. There's some versions cached on the wayback machine.
Well ya it is a script for a video he planned on doing. Of course he will make edits as he goes through and make corrections and alike.
@@No-dy3zk -after said video was posted?-
nevermind
It’s always been an unfinished script, a work in progress, and will eventually be the finished script for the video. Of course it has been edited after the fact. It’s gonna be edited even more.
*czcams.com/video/Q7USStVAS_Q/video.html*
Yes yes :)
I don't understand why he posted an unfinished script.
I've been watching CZcams for over a decade and Good God it feels good to finally watch someone who approaches these situations with intelligence and self-awareness
1 year later, have you seen darkvipers videos on this?
Recognizing that what you do is immoral but you do it anyway because it makes it easier to get ahead and no one can stop you isn't a virtuous thing. You're showing you're perfectly aware of the wrong you're doing, but make the calculated decision of doing it anyway. You're consciously being immoral to gain an advantage, not out of ignorance. You're showing your morals are based on what the competition gets away with (corporation logic). When did people forget the being paid in exposure is corporate bullshit?
Charlies adds a shit ton to his reacts. Even if i've already seen the content i'll watch his videos about it.
To add ; If it's content I'm not interested in at all and would never watch it on it's own I'll still probably watch Charlies take on it.
Edit ; I do this lud's react content is some of the best out there though.
Yep that’s the difference between a reaction video and pirating a video
Same
Eh, I disagree. But I guess it's hard to quantify that sort of stuff. I don't watch a lot of react content, but from what I've seen of Charlie's stuff, he usually just throws in a few cheap generic jokes here and there. I think Ludwig adds more than anyone listed in the doc. At least he usually pauses to give an anecdote or weigh in with his personal views on the subject. Also, from what I've seen of Asmongold, he also usually seems to do react content better than most, using the videos as a vehicle for discussion, rather than just something to physically 'react' to.
@@SeeMyDolphin Asmon is def an example of how to do react content. All of his reacts are at least double the length of the video he watches due to the amount of additional information and discussion he provides. He also provides links to the original in the description and posts the original to the chat and tells them to go check out the original.
Don't really see how they add "a shit ton". This is coming from a 2 year old viewer of Charlie, I love his stuff so if anything I'm biased towards him and not against him. But the vast majority of his reactions are just him saying a few jokes here and there. Some of his ones he uploads to CZcams are quite good but a lot of them are the same as others. Keep in mind the stuff he uploads onto CZcams is only a fraction of what he's actually reacted to and hes done a lot more on stream. And I don't watch his stream too often, but considering only half of his react videos are uploaded to his CZcams because his reactions changed it a lot (such as his slap tournament reaction vids) and the other half is less about his reaction and more because it's an interesting subject he watched (such as his Dark Tik Tok videos) implies that his stream is much worse. I don't really care that much about the drama, just giving my take on this specific topic. Im not calling Charlie or a bad person or saying he's hurting the site, because I don't want to sit through hour long videos to form a proper opinion on something that isn't very interesting to me.
I run a meme account with a decent following and a few years ago I started asking for permission before posting anything. It takes two seconds out of my day and it gives the creator the recognition they deserve. While it's not always feasible for CZcamsrs and streamers to ask for permission for every bit of content they react to, it's super meaningful to the creator and I wish more people would take up that practice.
Unusualmemes alt account confirmed
I really don't get why they don't just get permission first, it seems so crazy to me, other than them just not caring I guess.
@@Keijo_ most reaction content is spontaneous, and/or suggested via viewers (for example watch Luds video about making a fake account and seeing how it grows.)
To get permission for every piece of content would be extremely strenuous and require alot of planning + not every creator will respond when asked if they can react to their content.
@@AesopFable calling it "strenuous" is actually hilarious ngl. They definitely could just shoot out emails to a bunch of content creators about certain videos, which wouldn't be that hard to do, and they could have a bunch of videos stored up for when they need/want them. It would take a little bit of planning, and I do mean a little, and I don't see the downside to that. So many streamers have this attitude that they shouldn't have to prepare or put in any amount of work or forethought for any of their streams and expect to still make tons of money. Lud's one of very few that has something specific planned for almost every stream that he thinks will be interesting enough for a CZcams video, and one of even fewer that manages to accomplish this while streaming almost every day. That's why I watch his stuff, the effort shows.
The "luck or skill" video about Mizkif's door is different because it was a self-promo, so he wouldn't have needed to get permission because it's implied when he donated $50 asking him to watch
@@AesopFable I paused the video to comment but just saw that Lud even talks about how he's going to start getting permission for all videos he reacts to, it's definitely feasible, we don't need to make excuses for content creators to not put forth minimum effort
You know what, at least on yt livestream, there should be a way for sharestrean or whatever, where whenever you react to someone's video , it somehow integrates it so that you can watch that video along with the streamer's reactions. And even though it might be tough to implement on twitch cuz of competition, it's easier to sort out on yt, kinda like the prime thing on twitch.
Also i really do believe that in the long term more reactions would hurt as lazy content gets more and more to the top
8:50 lud seemed like an alien trying to convince us he's human
Always love your takes, generally very mature. You think things through. Also I would love to see you stream Line goes up!
Great Vid! Love the new Drama catch up content! It might be fun to do a more "lazy" react content and bury it in a one off youtube channel with no promotions, just thrown into the ether.
5:40 but daily dose actively seeks out the original owners and offers them payment, so he isn’t stealing content if he’s paying the original owner.
If you look on instagram, you can sometimes literally see him asking people for permission
It was wild to see all of this pop up right after Jay Exci's video, which is a much better critique of reacting I think. Certainly, a lot better thought out and nuanced. No hate to Hassan but they made a lot of really good points about what appropriate reacting looks like, as someone who had their content reacted to in a disrespectful way
yeah jay's criticism of hasan was MUCH more warranted than this guy's criticism of charlie
But even then.. Who is to say the next content creator feels those restrictions should be applied to their content though. I think that's the issue. It's a spectrum. Maybe if creators just put in the Description "Streamers and content creators are free to use my content for reactions with accreditation" Or "Streamers and content creators Please do not use my content for reactions" And as a whole as people we just respect the individual's ideas for what they would allow with their content.
@@nerdjournal Because at the end of the day, there are certain times when they say 'Please don't use my content' and you can legally say 'no thanks mate.' And still legally be allowed to profit.
This is fair use, and its state is the whole reason why React content is so hot button, because it exists in certain vague and poorly defined terms.
As the law currently stands, most react content could easily claim fair use under criticism, and it would be up for a court to decide if the use is considered fair.
Which is the serious issue here. If the guidelines for fair use are minimal, how are the legitimate uses of it filtered from the illegitimate uses.
@@tylerbarse2866it's not at all minimal copyright law pretty much states that you have to be constantly reviewing or critiquing the media that you're watching. Tom Scott made a video about it. React content is lazy but then again the original creator can easily just use the content id system and make more money than they would have anyways.
DarkViper definitely has a point about react content being lazy and just profiting off of other creators' backs, but the bad faith arguments, the random numbers he seemed to pull out of nowhere, and the frankly disgusting "hyperbole" (as he called it) about react creators being in any way, shape or form comparable to sexual abusers (that he defended TWICE now) just makes it so no one wants to listen to his other points.
Great content as always Lud!
I'm not sure why so many people have an issue with that analogy. When you are comparing two things you are not saying "this thing is that thing". You are using the comparison so that people can better understand your point. I think the topic of consent is very well understood these days, whereas the topic of 'reacting to content you did not create without permission' is not well understood and something some people think is actually beneficial to the original creator. I agree it's an extreme analogy but it's effective in describing why the practice is bad in my opinion.
@@snicklefritzal Its a bad analogy becuse its belittles people that has survived SA and dealing with aftermatch, which is not the same as someone thats dealing with having to reach out to the person who reacted, or having to DMCA them.
I see DV point and i agree with them, but i do not agree with the way he deliverd it, and defending a very fucked up comparison, becuse that is what an Analogy is "a comparison of the features or qualities of two different things to show their similarities" is extreamly damaging to the victims of SA.
@@gosera-1108 I don't think it's fair to take two things that are being compared and then change the parameters of the comparison to invalidate the original analogy. The comparison is the lack of regard for consent, not that the result of acting without consent in both scenarios is the same.
@@snicklefritzal yeah thats what these people are missing. Hes comparing the concept of consent, not the outcome of SA. The fake outrage is so dumb
@@Pharoah2 It's because people care more about optics than actual arguments. If Darkviper didn't use this analogy at all, people would just find another thing to harp on about, because they have to justify their positions. Sure, the original script and the response video was assholish but it doesn't effect the argument at all. The analogy is logically sound but very insensitive. So, people just don't even try to disprove the analogy.
i was literally thinking about it last night. i love music and kpop is one of the most "reacted" things on youtube. still, i know how lazy it is but i do watch reactors and reviewers coz first, i know the creators don't really monetize it and second, it is a genre in itself. it is still content and people still consume it. ofc, i tend to be a bit picky with what i watch (should either be entertaining and with actual reviews) but yeah. as long as it's something people enjoy, creators are gonna do it. it really is up to the platform to protect the owners.
It makes me so happy that Lud’s been repping Line Goes Up so much, which is also my favorite video this year (I actually clicked off a Ludwig livestream to watch when it dropped)
Viper is right. Reactors are stealing content, its NOT original to sit there and do nothing while someone else's content keeps people interested in you
yeah there’s a lot of stuff that i just wouldn’t watch without react streamers playing them. and some, i discover and go give them a sub. Like when Lud played a Studson Studios video on stream and i likes it & went to his channel too. Would’ve never known about him otherwise
Ludvig! There is 1 REALLY BIG flaw in your logic regarding CZcams's copyright claims:
You react to 9 minutes of TikToks that are each 5-30 seconds long.
Only ONE get's claimed. - So tell me again how ALL of the creators you're reacting to are getting the revenue again?
There can be multiple claims on a video though, no?
@@phraseology6858 Well yes, but actually no.
From my personal experience:
If you use copyrighted music you will get claimed for every piece of music you use. However, if someone (usually a company) places a manual claim on non music content afterwards then CZcams assumes that they want to claim the entire video. Since scummy claiming companies would rather not duel other scummy claiming companies in court they avoid claiming content that has already been claimed even if they also own content that was used as a part of the video. It's usually either 1 claim or 0 for non-music content.
@@guest273 Ohhh, that actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks mate!
VERY good point about part of the responsibility being on the platform of content creators
Could had really used this video in my recommended like, 3 hrs ago when we were discussing this in a stream. Crazy. Good points.
I remember H3H3 fought tooth and bone for fair use, depending on the reactor if they add to it then it’s fine if they don’t then fair, you could say it can help channels grow
H3h3’s reaction is completely different than what Lud is doing, and if Lud went to court on this he would definitely lose. H3H3 would make a 15 minute video where < 5 minutes of it is the content he’s reacting to and the other 10+ is his own original audio and video, and the true “content” you are watching for is the criticism not the original piece, because the only original art that is included is strictly what is necessary to react to, as required by law. When Ludwig is reacting 90% of the content is the original video and like 10% is Ludwig reactions. I’m not saying all those views would magically transfer, but Ludwig’s use is definitely not under “fair use” in the legal sense. Whether or not it *should* be legal is a different question
I don't even entirely disagree that react content is lazy or even bad for the platform, but DarkViper was just such an insane asshole about it that it's hard to agree with him. At worst it's lazy, it doesn't make someone a terrible person.
Edit: Some replies have compared react content to gaming content, and I do not think that's a good comparison. When you watch a streamer watch a video, there is zero point in watching it on your own. Meanwhile, watching someone play a game and playing it yourself are very different. However, I think there is something to be said for streamers that actually add insight to what they watch instead of popping on a video while they eat.
I get a feeling he just hates charlie
@@agusvelozo3189 seen it. He still kinda just sounded like an asshole.
@@blueberrysquid He always does. He even sounds like one he makes an awkward joke
@@agusvelozo3189 about everything. He made a hasty shitty take to get views he’s no better than anyone he talked shit about lol
@@thebigsam I never watched him but from all this I can say I never will again lol. He made some good points like Ludwig and Charlie have said but everything else is just him being a dumb head to get views.
Rules in Germany are something like "you must have the rights to use it, else you're breaking the law". Pretty simple, wish more people would do that.
Damn lud just has such good concise understandings and overviews of situations and solidly gets the space
That new DarkViper video quite literally ruins this mans image completely, anyone who goes in it liking ludwig will come out hating him (thats of course if you actually listen to what Matto has to say)
not really, his criticism of ludwig didn’t really appear to be serious enough for me to hate the man. he was just wrong and darkviper (who admits he assumes the worst) said ludwig didn’t just make an error but was purposefully lying
@@djkarmstrong Well he made another video about him that makes it even worse
Comparing a yt video to a song is so unbelievably disingenuous. A song can be relistened too hundreds of times, while a yr video cannot.
which is exactly what darkviper au was saying and what hes been saying for the past 3 years. finally someone in this comment section that actually understands what matto is saying and not just dick sucking ludwig while proving matto right.
You have the BEST take on this whole situation bro.
I do have to point out that I wouldn’t have seen unusual memes without lud and I’m always excited to see the next tik tok time, I still go back after luds videos and watch the unusual memes to give them a view but I always wait for Ludwig’s video first
Interesting take on the platforms being responsible to regulate their creators and what content they can and can't make, but by that same logic what motivation do platforms have to do so? The financial burden of implementing a copyright infringement detection system is so unreasonably high (even though yes, Twitch being owned by Amazon would be able to afford it, but would that cost combined with Twitch's low/negative profitability or growth prospects mean they would maybe just shut it down instead?)
More importantly these platforms, much like creators, are also competing and have to set the bar as low as they're allowed to, or in some cases push past it, in order to keep people on their platform over another. If Twitch cracks down on react content for any other reason than to comply with government regulation or the threat of legal action, who's to say that those viewers/users wouldn't just shift to TikTok or CZcams or, as you said, just stop watching livestreams entirely?
That's more or less the only reason that CZcams has Content ID in the first place, since they were forced to create it out of a compromise with copyright owners that would have otherwise shut down their site, and is also likely why Twitch hasn't made a bigger push for VOD content being hosted on their site, since doing so would open them up to similarly tighter regulations.
Rather than being proactive about copyright, as Google was when they purchased CZcams, Amazon is kind of just letting Twitch run its course with copyright infringement, since they have less of a target on their back compared to Google or Facebook as far as their involvement in internet ecosystems. And since, like you said, those sorts of business practices are praised until any form of actual consequence arrives, why would Twitch proactively make a decision that could hurt their own platform and push viewers to others?
Sad to see such a well crafted response get no traction. Especially from a content creator.
I think the main problem in all of this is the fact that being able to push 1 or 2 videos per day thanks to this "react"/"easy" content, gives you a massive algorithmic advantage on other content creator, both big and small.
I like how offline chat is just chilling and vibing, just there doing there own thing, while Ludwig is explaining this controversial topic. Cozy chat
Very briefly touching on the point made around the 5 min mark re: finite views, I feel like that's very true. Like. A lot of the communities that I am a part of, we're there for the content creator. As in, we enjoy the person who is making the content. And speaking just for myself, if that person was to stop making the aforementioned content? I'd probs just stop right there. Like... I have TRIED to find more creators in that "same space" (like hey is someone else playing this game?) but they'll fail to hold my interest. Also, when its react content, I enjoy seeing THAT particular creators reaction to the stuff. Plain and simple. And often times, its the combination that really sparks the most entertainment for me.
So yeah. Assuming that viewership is like... this static and finite number is a very gross oversimplification of the matter when so many other external and "black box" elements come into play.
I think the situation itself and the ethics of copyrighted material and react content's relationship with it is a really grey area of copyright infringement. At the end of the day, I just don't think ViperAU has done a very good job of representing his ideas nor a great job at representing how grey this area is - he seems determined to prove that react content is, without a doubt, a bad thing when it just isn't that simple. Coupled with how unneccesarily angry he seems to be about the whole thing and even if you agree with him wholeheartedly you're driven to iterate your opinion in a very different way than him because you don't want the idea of react content being lazy to be associated with a guy defending a sexual assault analogy.
Big creators reacting to smaller videos are one of the main reasons those videos do well. Reactions bring thousands of eyes to a small channel, usually with the same audience. Ludwig proved this by having Miz react to a video on a channel with no views, and the video gained 40k+ views in one day.
yea, but that wasnt the point of the script, he explains it in his video, the point was that if that react content didn't exist, those impressions have to go to another creator, not necessarily to the small creator nor the same platform, but that react content is taking away views from original and good content that ppl put so much effort into it.
Ok but how many people stuck around and watch other video the creator made and upload? And how many continued to do so the day after?
Which is not the point Viper argues against. His point is about that reactors steal impressions from thousands of original creators every hour they do that type of content and even if one creator that is reacted to somehow gains views from this, it's still a net loss in terms of overall impressions for the entire community
@@thebigsam who the fuck is he to be the arbiter of what counts as quality and original content? Cant I say that if all gaming, makeup, react content got removed that educational videos like vsauce would get a boost? Would the world be a better place if jaystation couldnt make content? Probably, but who the fuck am I to say what people should watch.
@@greed864 Nobody. Matt SPECIFICALLY describes "good" content as "algorithmically viable", which has nothing to do with human bias and all that. If Reactors didn't exists, platforms would push you more videos from original creators. Nobody makes you watch them, but you will get more exposed to them and that counts
That's awesome you brought up the chuggaconroy situation!
Man, this comment section is weird, everyone is simply stating why they like reaction content rather than presenting their views on whether its net outcome is good or not, evaluating all the factors. Not just whether YOU like reaction content or not.
what if any react content just gave impressions to the original video? like if 10k people are watching lud watch kurzgesgagt, he gets 10k views on the vid. i feel like you’d need a robust and nuanced system to implement this but considering how big of a thing it’s been for nearly all of youtube’s existence, it would be a good move for a company whose only done shit things recently
I have absolutely no idea how this would be implemented but it’s a really cool idea
great idea, what do you do if a) they dont do the stuff necessary to essentially host it and instead just screenshare, or b) they just use another site
Ludleech, Scamwig.
Exactly
I knew there was gonna be Mogul mail regarding this drama
I instantly thought of hax when you said the bad analogy thing
Ive only been watching you for a good few months after a recommendation from my boyfriend, and I can honestly say my life is better for it. This drama situation has been.. a really weird clusterfuck, especially because I like both of their content. Its really refreshing to see someone like you (of which you've done before) come in at neutral ground despite the connections to one of them and lay it out incredibly simply, pointing out faults and truths with each persons argument. Thankyou for the video, I hope it assists in calming this whole situation down.
Facst
and then you watched DVAU's response and realised how stupid this video is, right?
WHERES THE INSTANT POST STREAM FROGS AT THOUGH
HERE BRO
My videos get copyrighted so the original owner gets the ad revenue. Also ludwig: just gonna unlist all those videos so they still get no revenue, suckers
Its in this video. You can see he unlisted all of them
This is actually a very well spoken and level-headed analysis
I remember when back in the day a video went viral it was on the creators channel
I feel like nowadays every viral video comes from some sort of content farm/reupload channel and you see it through compilations or reactions
What I find problematic is how these huge channels rely on essentially exploiting these videos to maintain their audience and platform and often denying the unknown original channel a chance to grow.
Back in the day you could establish a career off of 1 viral video (wich I guess is still possible but significantly harder) it feels like nowadays most people's fame grows from being associated with other large channels instead and they launch your career which I find to be a difficult dynamic and also leads to less overall content diversity and makes the entire space very homogeneous
That being said he'll yeah I'll watch the next tik Tok time they're fire
I feel like this would not be drama at all if DarkViper just wasn't an asshole to everyone, like almost every single person he mentioned. Also if he wasn't the king of generalizations.
thiiiiiiis
His fans don't think this, they think hes in the right. I agree with you 100 percent.
Just love how lud plays music on his phone on top of a fricken jukebox in his Jackie chan stream
honestly as a viewer and youtube frog I like both.... im subbed to unsusual memes and watch it almost eevery night, even after watching i still enjoy switching over to some good old ludwig. I still enjoy watching your inputs and jokes on the video.
There's react channels and then there's react channels.
I remember Jacksfilms doing one, reacting to a react channel reacting to his videos. Just blankly staring at it, like the react channel did nothing to add anything to his video. Making the point that, if there's no transformative content added, it just becomes a one stop shop and taking views away from the original creator.
Then there are plenty of react channels that actually put their opinions before, during or after the video. And most of them are decent enough to shout out and mention URLs to the original creators. Ngl, that's how I found about some creators I had never heard or seen before and now actively follow.
Of course it would be even better if react channels wait a week or a month as to not draw any of the traffic away from a fresh original upload.
At the very least I think reactors need to get the original creators consent. I always think it's a good thing that when the original channel has a Patreon the reactor a) supports it themselves or b) shills for it to viewers.
*czcams.com/video/Q7USStVAS_Q/video.html*
Yes yes :)
I think reactors are the future of clean energy
Specialy if its on youtube Cause if viewers Did like The video that was reacted They would comeback and make more interactions to the Channel but Charlie doswnt ask or even gives credit to the videos hes watched which takes away the posibility of the people who liked the Video to interact with the creators Channel
That's too much effort, and that means they would just stop reacting. It's not a problem since basically every CZcamsr agrees to it since it has been shown to increase views and subs.
@@Rakkoonn it hasn't really though, Hasan and his 40k viewers reacted to one of Jay Exci's videos and they only got a bump of 7 subscribers.
And you can't take creators' silence as consent
“I don’t think it should be on creators to be morally righteous” so true.
i can understand how react content could take away from the original cc, but live reactions/discussions are so interesting. i’ve learned a lot about different people / things from react streamers / youtubers. it’s good exposure.
Tom Scotts video on copyright is worth watching, its not related to this, this video just made me think of it
For me I just don't have the time to really search for new channels to watch. It's almost always better to just stick with consistency than to find new.
React content gives me a consistent way to find new channels without investing as much time and has lead to me finding several channels that I didn't know about that I love now.
Exactly. Many times if I don't see a video being reacted to by one of my regular channels, I would NEVER be aware of or watch the video in the first place.
8:04 I think its also important to note that compilations and react streamers are both stealing across platforms, react streams take form CZcams and give to twitch, and compilations are variously tiktok snap chat or some other short form social media. This means that the platforms, save CZcams streaming, have no intrest in cracking down as it keeps eyes on their site. Though shorts may incline youtube to want to try to cut down on compilations.
What if you could add a tag to your video that says either 'React Friendly'' or 'No React Tolerated'
I don't think everyone thinks the same, so the tag would be a great way to see what the youtuber you are reacting to feels about it.
I feel a lot of live streamers are oblivious to the world of reacting to TV and movies. One of the biggest creators in that space has a tag line "This is not a market substitute" in every video (not as a prerecorded thing either) and very little of the actual show/movie is shown. most of the content is the reaction and discussion about the content. it is a lot more work than tiktok reacting that you do and i think its a bit unfair to lump them in to "all reactors are bad". If live stream reacting was more like that i think people would be ok with it.
I'll be honest, lud is the last person I expected to mention chuggaaconroy
People like Reactions its the best part in movies and anime and pretty much anything. When you get to see the good guy or the bad do something badass good or bad the reactions of the other characters draws attention those moments can make or break a show.
Ludwig I just wanted to say that I, along with probably some other people, love this kind of content. And I don’t just mean the react content, because honestly, I grew up with let’s plays back in 2012 and 2013, and honestly let’s plays, (which now are just gaming videos) are just people giving their reactions to video games, but I mean the in depth dive on the guts of CZcams, the impressions to click-through rates, the nitty gritty on whether it’s morally right to make react content, the monetization that does or in most cases doesn’t take place, and just the internal side of youtube as a whole. I might be a minority in my opinion on this, and that’s ok with me, but I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the work that you and Charlie (Moist) do to shed some light on this stuff. Yeah, it may come off as a drama piece to some people and maybe it is or isn’t easy content to make for you both, but I don’t really care, I think it’s fun and interesting to get the perspective of people who’ve “made it” on the platform, and who are successful from it. Also, I really just love this channel lol, so that might also be a bias I have haha.
I love these videos you've been making, I'm a fan of both charlie and darkviper but didn't have time to read a 14 page document or watch over an hour of videos, so this really helped!
I love coming home from work and then eating my dinner while listening to you talk about things that I have no idea what it's about
Easily the best take on this situation I've seen
everyone giving their own takes but no one talking about how fire of a point ludwig had about twitch needing to be held responsible
So would saying making compilations of original content be the same situation, it really depends on the situation also the copyright system scuffed
I agree with this take about react streamers for the most part. React streamers don’t add enough for it to be transformative content. Some streamers even leave the room leaving a video on. You could atleast link the video and try to ask the creator. For example if you want to react to Line Goes Up ask Folding Ideas.
I can't get over how polite Ludwig's outros are
This man is the fastest uploader on CZcams, Charlie's response was literally 7 hours ago
At around the 5 minute mark Ludwig starts on talking about how the impressions wouldn't necessarily stay the same and how darkviper was wrong, but I'm positive that he addresses that fact and states that (realistically) about 5% would fuck off and do something else and the rest would most likely still watch something. One more thing, darkviper's paper wasn't meant to ever find a solution to the problem, rather just say why reacting is a problem. It was never the point to find a solution, and I think he made that pretty clear.
It's certainly weird watching drama going down between two content creators I watch and enjoy
Only watching Mogul Mail when I'm "elevated" is a whole other experience.
For every action there must be a reaction. It’s a law of CZcams physics.
I just like react channels because it allows me to get more context and allows me to see from other people's perspectives, or in some cases feel once more what i felt the first time i saw the source material.
You are looking at this from a very selfish way, you preferring it doesn't justify it lol.
the hax joke lmaooo
The amount of back and forth responses between CZcamsrs reminds me when I was trying to authenticate a user with OAuth 2.0
Congrats to Ludwig for making 'Don't hate the player, hate the game' into a 14 minute video lmaooooo
I'm a fan of most people involved in all of this stuff, and watch both Charlie and DarkViperAU very often. I think Matt (DarkViperAU's name) wrote this whole thing out of anger rather then trying to actually change peoples minds, which is a bad idea if you are trying to get a point across. His arguments about the actual topic at hand are actually good, however, when you are arguing a point in which you are trying to get people to change their ways (assuming that is what Matt actually wants and doesnt just want to express how much he hates reactors, which might just be the case), calling them "bad people" and comparing their actions to those of "someone who spikes someones drink or doesnt ask for consent" not only gives them grounds to dismiss your argument, but also puts them in a position that if they agree you're right, that makes them feel like they're admiting to being some sort of rapist. (no matter how much Matt argues that its just a comparason, its still EXTREMELY far fetched and compares having your content stolen to being a victim of being spiked/raped) Matt in his video made the claim that charlie should have waited until he made the video before going over some of his points, which is also a stupid argument. If you didn't think that was the best represention of your argument, you shouldnt have posted the doc to the public in the first place.
As for charlie, its definetly strange to not post links of the videos you react to in the description of your video, as its a common practice among people who upload reaction content out of respect (although it isnt necessarily illegal or agaisnt TOS. its just up to a persons morals).
I think the last straw that broke the camels back was the fact that Matt is working on an episode for this series hes working on, and hes been putting in many hours of work into it for a very long time now. I'm sure this probably prompted the entire thing, and him thinking about his own work being stolen probably just made him crack. Thats just a guess though, I could be completly wrong
I agree on everything you have said here, except for 1 small thing.
Charlie, in his video, talked about why he doesn't tend to put links in his descriptions.
1. He has dealt with chunks of his audience going to a link and harassing the person
2. He puts any of the crucial details in his videos, like the name of the work, so that if you truly are curious and want to find out more, you can go and explore more of the information for yourself.
And he went into detail talking about how he understands both sides of the argument and can see why it might turn some people off.
(I COULD BE WRONG OR COULD HAVE WORDED THIS INCORRECTLY. Go watch Charlie's video titled "Drama response" which is where I got this information.
@@lordqwertythepyromancer3458 I did hear him say that in that video, and when talking to my friend about it, they also brought up that point before Charlie released the video. I think it’s a valid point, however, I got curious about videos he’s reacted to that he’s not necessarily clowning on (such as slap fight) and there also weren’t any links to anything in the description aside from his twitch channel.
And for the second part, yeah, I agree, he does say/show titles of videos and whatnot, and people could, if truly interested, find the video he’s watching. I just think putting links to stuff like that is sorta a courtesy if you reacted to something you enjoyed. Plus it’s also a slight barrier to entry to someone who might be potentially interested, and it might turn away a viewer who would have watched it if the link was in the description, but won’t anymore because they don’t have that ease of access and are too lazy to search it up themselves because they aren’t super invested. I would like to state that I don’t think it’s the worst thing in the world if you decide to not put a link in the description, because as you stated, it’s fairly easy to find if you truly are interested, it’s just a respectful thing to do.
And for content that Charlie is clowning on people, I think it’s definitely a responsible thing to not to put links in the description to their channels or videos, as his community has and probably will attack others (if I’m not mistaken, he uploaded a video a few months back because his community harassed someone he made a video on and he was disappointed). Matt’s document didn’t have any links to his socials/CZcams, however, I don’t think charlie knew this, so I don’t exactly blame him for not including it.
Anyways, the drama is pretty much resolved at this point, I think I saw a community post where Matt said he and Charlie talked and that he shouldn’t have called Charlie a bad person because he’s not, and that’s great to hear
@@meepleaderalpha2959 Its cause hes lazy+ Doesnt want people clicking off the vid
plain react is something i dont understand, but commentary is amazing
“I'm bad, and that's good! I will never be good, and that's not bad!”
Do you know what people don’t take into account with reaction videos? The quality of life aspect. People say they only cause negative effects but you could argue that react content creates a space that mukbangs were made for: the ability to make someone not feel alone. Like for instance I watch attack on titan, but I have no one to share my love of AOT with so I watch react content to see how other people felt about episodes or scenes. Yes I could just read tweets or a Reddit post about it but seeing someone’s raw reaction is always a better and more real experience. I feel like this could really impact your quality of life.
totally, like with atrioc yeah he does react stuff a lot, but his insight and commentary (especially in business talk) is very entertaining and interesting
I watched Viper for years, and as other people have mentioned whenever he becomes involved in drama he often comes across poorly. I stopped watching him because of his high and mighty attitude about certain things and the frequent frustrating disputes he would get into.
Yea he seems pretty level headed on most things but a few certain things he just doesn't think he can be wrong on
@@Jacob-cj9hm because he isn't ✨😌
@@isaacs_not_here6079 but he literally is?
@@mrsberrry it's okay to be wrong
@@isaacs_not_here6079 if you're talking about me being wrong you're super wrong if you talk about Darkviper being wrong yeah i guess it's okay but he really should consider before saying bullshit
People can refer to react content as lazy and claim that it hurts smaller creators but to be completely honest, there’s so many videos people have reacted to that I found interesting that I never even would’ve clicked on in the first place. Yes the view goes somewhere else but that video and creator has now stuck with me from the content I saw and having a person I like react to it makes it easier to remember.
I find nearly every channel through other people i respect who react to them or talk about them, i wouldn't know Charlie or Ludwig if it wasn't for reactions and once i find a new channel i enjoy i watch everything they produce like Summoning Salt or Nick Robinson two more found through reactors that I would never have found on my own.
I'm not the type to be out searching for new creators and I fully agree that it should be on the platform to change things if they so choose but in most cases I've seen those that get reacted to or shouted out end up far more successful because of it and in many cases even feel proud to see a youtuber/streamer they love who likes their content.