Experiencing Alan Scott: Vineyard Anaheim to Dwelling Place
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2023
- My name is John Doukas. I was a member of the Vineyard Anaheim from 2000-2019, involved as a volunteer and friend in many areas of the church. During my last couple of years there, I was an intern and was there when Alan and Kathryn Scott became the senior pastors. I stayed on for one year during their first year.
In this video I want to share some personal perspectives of Vineyard Anaheim before and after the arrival of Alan Scott.
I am a retired presbyterian minister who was greatly blessed by John Wimber and the Vineyard over the years. It saddens me to see what has happened. Your integrity shines through and I am sure your words and prayers will be frutiful and healing to many hurting people.
You and Noah are doing important work by speaking out. Thank you.
I sat under Alan Scott for 3 years, I heard him say so many provocative things that were designed to offend people. He even admitted that he was trying to clear out all the old Vineyard members who wouldn't comply to the new culture (or cult) that Alan was trying to create. He likened them to the old Israelites who had to die in the wilderness to make way so the young could inherit the promise land. He repeatedly disparaged the previous leadership. When he finally broke away from the Vineyard he said that he would explain why in the coming weeks, but he never did, other than to say that God told him. I personally witnessed Alan inviting people to leave if they didn't like what was going on. You said that Alan was calculated, you absolutely right, but in a negative connotation, he's "calculating', a manipulator, deceptive and has a huge ego believing himself to be personally anointed on the level of a prophet or apostle. I've also heard him say that because so many people have been offended by him is an indication that he must be doing something right! He's a very dangerous man!
One of my bigger concerns with him is the damage that occurs to people who get burned by a church. When someone is actively scattering people and has no interest in their well being, it’s not something people just forget. I’m a little jaded myself, but I’ve had friends in other churches who have taken the time and care to care about me. I’ve gotten to experience Jesus through it all. But, I do know some who are understandably turned off by scandal after scandals.
@@openbookwithjohn1865that’s amazing glad things are working out for you.
Thanks for bravely sharing John.
Likewise. I was holding back for a while, wanting to move on. Your videos made me consider talking more.
The humility with which you shared this heartbreaking account is encouraging. Praying there will be more humble servants of Christ who do the same. God bless you.
Thanks John for sharing, AlAn Scott has left a lot of people hurt over here in lreland.
The church in Ireland had to set aside a fund to council those who were badly hurt.
Nothing new John
You have a beautiful shepherd heart.Thank you for sharing with so much courage
Thank you John Doukas. I'm glad you're sharing this. My prayer is that a five year old would be able to see and understand these people AND their theology. Your video and your comments are answers to my prayers. Your comments are corroborated by so many of us, the "scattered saints"...
God bless you brother. Go Dodgers! 😊
I appreciate what you've shared. The icon you shared of Jesus holding the sheep is so meaningful. God bless you!
Heartbreaking. Thank you for your gentle wisdom.
It is so obvious that John is telling the truth. He is so genuine.
Thank you for sharing. It’s sad that we seem to live in a day where there’s a threshold of public pressure that has to be met for change to happen.
John, I first got a glimpse of your shepherds heart when you posted on Facebook after Alan disassociated from Vineyard USA. My heart was broken along with thousands of others. Then and now you expressed so beautifully how Jesus loves us . … you gave us a view into the heart of the church. The community of people that make up the local church. People that work, hard, serve and care for one another.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for continuing to speak up against the abuse and take over that wounded so many in our community. I know that you are one voice in thousands.💔
Hi. Thank you for your encouragement.
God will look after his people
I got to meet your son recently. Tell him hi for me!
I loved the way you did this video... just gently coming out with the facts in a laid back manner... brilliant... from a former vineyarder in the UK...
Thank you. You have the right focus/question… what is the role of a shepherd?
Feed the sheep. Tend the flock. The model of generous, compassionate, practical, nourishing, healing care demonstrated by our Good Shepherd.
Both Old Testament - Psalm 23 - and New Testament are unambiguous. Servant leadership caring for the congregants with grace, generosity, and compassion.
And yes, it is appropriate for leaders to bear responsibility. Transparency and accountability should not be flinched away from or sidestepped. This is part of integrity.
It is not wrong to question and hold the words and actions of leaders, and those claiming to be “shepherds“ up to the light we are provided.
We are witnesses to whatever we are witnesses to. Thank you for speaking up regarding what you have first-hand knowledge of. It may be helpful for others.
Dear brother, your transparency was both beautiful and heartbreaking. I don’t know anything except the few things that have come to my attention through Steve and Paulette Kozar’s recent Messed Up Church video and the link to the young drummer who also broke my heart with his story of church abuse. I can do little but spend time now in prayer for you to be healed by Our Great Physician and led into wise counsel and subsequent peace. I’m so sorry that this happened to you. 💔
Thank you for taking the time and courage to share this John. It really is heart-breaking to hear of the 'shepherds beating the sheep' as you put it. it made me sad to hear this again but also gives me hope and faith that there are brothers like you, who are people who know the heart of God. Your pure-heartedness is a blessing and shines through. Thank you for being a good shepherd and reaching out to those who feel lost, confused and afraid. May the Lord bless you and keep you.
Thank you for sharing this.
Thanks for sharing this, John!
God is going to do something very deep and it will bring a new season for this ministry it will be returned to Vineyard again under new leadership
Appreciate your honesty, John.
John
My heart is sad for you as I’m also having to leave a church which has been my church life for 22years. God has blessed me with two excellent churches that I’m now attending and learning more of the love of God through the worship time and the message.
I’m concerned about Jeremy and Katie Riddle who are such gifted and Christ loving people. I’m wondering where they are serving today as I haven’t seen them at Dwelling Place Anaheim in a month.
I’m praying for you that your heart is at peace and that you have found a church that serves our precious Lord and Savior honorably and blesses you as you become involved.
God bless you
Joanie Watkins
wow, thank you for sharing. I think your video came up cause I watched the other one you mentioned of the drummer.. and although its hard to share, it is encouraging to see people go through this mistreatment and still responding in obedience and love. I went through a similar situation in my church.. serving and all, and came to that point you mentioned- what are we doing here? That image says it all... we must follow the shepherd.. we must follow the lamb. Leaving encouraged and convicted to act in love!
Church is just a place where many people gather to feed their ego and to make themselves feel better at the end of the day it has nothing to do to actually help people. And now the religious people are everywhere one guy stalked me on the street literally parked to tell me about his cult and I told him to go away and he did others now are on the Fullerton loop trail and preaching on the street sorry but to me that’s not Jesus it’s a cult. I can’t do religion anymore it’s all the same it’s “I’ll pray for you” but people in church don’t really mean it and it’s “LGBTQ phobia and hate” PASS! Or it’s all about “you’re demon possessed” heard it all before in my childhood from my very religious family on my dads side two of them I do believe work for saddleback church as marriage counselors and they are rich hypocrites so no I’m not dealing with it anymore. The Lutheran church in Fullerton CA I suppose isn’t that bad but I still don’t think I’ll go I’m just exhausted of the cult like crap. Oh god I drank too much or smokes too much weed 4 days straight then you’re out of the church? Nah I’m not dealing with that anymore.
Wel said John! Thanks for speaking up.
Thank you for sharing...... I would love to meet you .
Thank you for sharing. I am just shocked that leaders in the church were not able to discern much sooner. And now he has started a new church he is accountable to no one.
I’m pleased to hear your faith is still strong.
Because they are too brainwashed it’s sad. As YungBlud sings in his songs, “I don’t want to be, I don’t want to be, I don’t ant to be fing brainwashed.” Who helped me when I was suicid*l and lost? Not the church but Dominic Haynes and that guy grew up as a Christian and does still believe in God. I don’t find God through religious cult leaders and in the church God is in the simple things like “Touched by an Angel” or “Everwood” show. Anyways, this guy talking is great this is how it should be. Glad I subscribed to this channel. But yes God is not in the church
Thank you John for sharing I know that is a lot of things that you didn’t said,
I left very very hurt, but with the faith that God is of vengeance and justice, and we will see us soon
Used to go there for years and loved it, it was my church. I moved away for some years and then moved back and wanted to go back to the Vineyard and heard it was taken over and not good, i will never step foot in this place again. Thanks for sharing, i now attend Vineyard Fullerton.
Thank you for bravely sharing this situation so honestly , John . I could really empathise with you as 12 years ago my husband and I had to leave a church that we’d sown so much of our lives into , because the new young minister told us there was no place for us. It was so hurtful and confusing. We pray for you and all the folk who’ve been so hurt , that our dear Heavenly Father will give you his peace which passes understanding, and in due time establish you in a church family when you will be valued , and blessed far above your imagining .
Thanks for this video. I'm just commenting to help the algorithm bump up this video... So sad what is happening at Dwelling Place
Thank you
I love the simple, yet seemingly not simple questions - what are we doing here? What is a pastor? Why would leadership be openly opposed to conversation and reconciliation? Thank you again.
Thanks for your humble and measured thoughts John. I appreciate your perspective.
I’ve been hurt (and left churches as a result) by the “my way or the highway” mentality as well. I’ve experienced that good leaders seek to empower their “flock” in their strengths and help them improve their weaknesses, rather than tossing all the round pegs that don’t fit into their square holes, whether in business or life. It’s all the more disappointing to see these failures in the church, especially the ones we have loved. It’s sad to see that loving the world is not enough, but that we “must” grow church at any cost, in just this way, and/or insist on revival instead of praying for God to bring it and ushering it in with our Christ-likeness in the community.
Yeah. I remember hearing something CS Lewis said, about the need to read Christian books from different centuries. His idea was to hear Jesus through church history and not to be in our bubble. Something I learned at Vineyard is that it's important to let people be open with God and one another, through doubts and failures. Throughout history there have been many scandalous moments in the church, yet there are saints who in turn, show the light cannot be snuffed out. They take care of the poor, leave seeds on paths for birds, greet enemies in peace, celebrate communion even with a few...at least that's where I've been trying to find healing.
Then God leads us into community where they care if you are there or not, and the sense of mission is to be light to a community.
I hope you continue to be open with where you're at. I remember a John Wimber quote. Someone came to him and shared they had struggles in praying. John said, "let's pray about that."
Good video! Aren’t you surprised that more people haven’t spoken out against the strange ways of Alan and Jeremy?
Not to get political, but I would liken it to trying to tell someone that their favorite politician is corrupt. Until someone sees it for themselves, they won’t see it.
Thanks for watching. I was nervous making this video. No church is perfect and I don’t want to act like I myself am excluded.
Oh no not Jeremey to 😂 I love that man’s voice. Why? 🤷♀️😢lol
@@openbookwithjohn1865okay but he’s such a great singer 😢
@@openbookwithjohn1865no I went a couple of times and listened to Alan Scott’s sermons and he’s very rude and judgmental something very off about this man. I went today to see Jeremey Riddle play me and my boyfriend will be going once a month but we will probably leave after worship. Might as well only see this as a free concert.
Hi John, thank you so much for sharing your story. I’ve seen the other stories that have come to light recently. Some are very concerning, while others not so much and seem revenge-like, in my opinion. I think we can’t forsake Truth for the cause of loving one another. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. In saying that though, I believe some people/leaders abuse that principle from Scripture.
My husband was involved with a Bible study/ministry that was formerly held at a Vineyard many years ago. I know we can’t make a blanket statement for every Vineyard, but apparently the ministry teacher and the group were told this Bible Study was not allowed and they could not be a part of the Vineyard and have their own separate Bible study in the same building. This came about after Wimber had come to this Vineyard and declared this. So they got the right foot of fellowship, if you will. I’ve heard other friend’s personal stories as well when it did not end well with a Vineyard because of situations of control/manipulation.
The reason I brought that up is to say that is I’m glad you had a good experience with Vineyard Anaheim (except towards the end) and had great community there. In all, it is sad to see the Body of Christ divided, no matter if it’s coming from the Vineyard side or the Dwelling Place side.
I believe it grieves God’s heart about every aspect, but I really appreciate your take and attitude on it. We have to remember as the Body who the real Head is (Christ).
God bless you!
Thanks
It's very clear that Alan isn't interested in shepherding the flock but fleecing the flock as evidenced by charging for classes in the church. I have been through a similar situation in a mid west Vineyard with a narcissistic leader in a pastor's position. The carnage that those kind of leaders leave behind is horrific. When he no longer had a use for us (volunteers who had put in countless hours serving and doing a lot of the job he was being paid for) , or if we didn't fit the look he was going for, we were let go. No reason, just the excuse, God is moving us in a different direction. It's such BS.
There are so many people in positions of leadership who have no clue what servant leadership is. My heart hurts for you, I completely understand how you are feeling. God bless you as you find a fellowship that has a pastor with a true shepherd's heart.
Thanks for your bravery in coming forward and sharing your experiences. Having watched your video and both of Noah’s, I find myself somehow still shocked that a church and a specific leader can operate this way. It’s not healthy. It’s not right. The church should be a place where all people can be safe and welcomed, free of agenda. Be well and thanks again ❤️
Shocked? Really? They all roll on the carpet speak fake tongues, and I see right through Alan Scott lol! 😂 my early impression the first day I went to that church is that Alan is fake. I sat in the front row one time and the guy looked right at me as I gave him the most dirtiest look of all even went home in tears. Went back yesterday just because I enjoy Jeremeys music and I won’t be back ever again and will no longer be listening this his music. I’ll find other musicians that I love but I don’t think I’ll be returning back to the church or Christian music it’s all just fake. Even had a goal of reading the whole Bible through and don’t want to do any of that now either. Idk why you all fall for it I mean I do to but I think a lot of people including myself really really need to stay opening our eyes, get the heck out of the church and actually help people. Many homeless people need help and to be served yet I’ve never seen one Christian even do that meanwhile my addict cousin can sit with a damn schizophrenic lady and give her good advice? And I can get drunk and go out and talk to a homeless man on the street? 🤷♀️🙄 and even when I’m sober I can go out and talk to people and I’m a pretty introverted and reserved person you don’t need a church or fake church leaders to go out and help people. I think this is the actual church. We can all do it on our own and I’m gonna go out and try it again even if I don’t have a group of people to follow. 🤷♀️
This Alan Scott is not a shepherd. He is a wolf.
Yep I agree which is why I went to the church with my boyfriend yesterday and we left right after. I like(d) Jeremeys music now I do not and won’t be going back but my boyfriend can’t stand church and Christian music. Oh well. Guess I’ll go back to listening to YungBlud at least that guy tells the damn truth about himself. My advice to everyone is to leave the churches for good they are all toxic money grubbing cults and to deconstruct from religion. We have many people on the streets that need help, many at work, and basically in the community but with church I won’t be back. Even the place I work at a lot of people need help not just in the church. So many people are hurting.
Logistically I expect the non talking thing will have to be in place until the Vineyard lawsuit is over
From my understanding, the silence was already happening beforehand. There’s email correspondence emphasizing the brick wall conversations.
Glad to hear your going back to your orthodox roots! Dorothy Day us someone to read if you can, she was catholic not orthodox but very good!
I have known John & Carol Wimber from 1983. John was a big "teddy bear" & oozed love, as did Carol. I was angry that John's now widow, Carol Wimber Wong, had to testify in court in what was a ridiculous, Christ-dishonoring case where the Scott's greed & deceit was only reached through taking a judicial oath. For example, they told the church board that they came to serve alone. Under oath, it was admitted that they thought that California would be the best place to launch Kathryn's wished-for singing career!!! I am so, so very sad that so very many have left (if you look, carefully at their vlogs, you can see they have erected, "black screens" to make the crowd look not-quite-so sparse). I understand that this is when Alan implemented the "weekly convert quotas" which puts a dreadful strain on their staff/members. I read the textbook for E S O M & wasn't impressed....&, you're quite right, the material doesn't come anywhere near $1,100! The type of material which they have been teaching through E S O M , any other pastor teaches from the platform (but, I guess the extra pay is welcome). We have a church in Northern Ireland but have never had to ask anyone, how to diversify - we have people from many nations at our church. As for Ireland being, "all Irish" that's not exactly the truth!! We have large groups of Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Bangladeshis, Africans, Filipinos, etc. It's down to where people feel loved, supported & welcome, rather than judged!! BTW, I was EXTREMELY interested in where Scott gets his "3 body-type" ideas (& dumping type 3's). It floated somewhere in my mind. You won't be surprised when I tell you that the idea was put forward by a non-Christian, William Herbert Sheldon, who was also a proud eugenicist (as were the Nazis & many other groups who believed the disabled, those born with mental illness or ANY deformity had NO PLACE ON EARTH). Alan (poor thing uses the numbers 1,2,& 3. The correct name for these somatotypes are the same names we give to various stages of the fetus, in utero:- 1. Ectomorphic 2. Mesomorphic 3. Endomorphic. Consider the source..... As for church "staff". We believe in, "Jehovah Jireh" & NEVER collect an offering (our God is no man's debtor & we have NO mortgage on our building). People who wish to follow the ONLY directive given us by Jesus Christ before his ascension was that every penny should go towards the spread of the gospel & not draw a money-grubber to our church seeking a higher pay check! All overseers MUST meet the terms of 1Tim 3 v 1-3 & Titus 1 v 5-9 but they're all "tent-makers" (they work regular jobs, taking NO payment from the church).
John Wimber would be horrified to see what's become of his church
Yeah I heard he was a really good man. I was born in the 80’s so I don’t even remember the guy but I heard such good things kind of breaks my heart that’s churches don’t really care.
Except I think John would be the first to say it wasn't "his" church
Nothing unusual. It is what happens to all churches, denominations and movements without fresh revival and the application of the cross to our daily lives.
For sure Carol is saddened.
It’s sad what’s happened at the Vineyard, some say it’s criminal. I guess no one recognized the wolf in sheep’s clothing. It seems that many are still blinded. I look forward to the day when it’s Alan and his spiritual thugs are the ones walking out the front door!
I did the first day I went. Alan is super fake.I did go back because I liked Jeremey Riddles music but I’m not listening to it anymore can’t be apart of that nonsense. Why would I want to go back so that I can not grow and be stuck where I’m at? No thank you
Hope you get justice and he and his enablers get humbled!
Thank you John, for speaking out! Alan obviously & sadly has no idea or concern about healthy relationships, healthy ministries within the Body, or the church being a family. His actions show that he’s approaching church management in a prideful, purely businesslike and transactional way, rather than from the heart of a compassionate elder brother, a kind shepherd or a caring father. Alan can only operate out of the overflow of his own relationship with God, and I believe that is what he is showing us. It seems he doesn’t know the Father’s Heart at all!
Jesus’ love motivated him to lower himself to our level, to live 33 years as a human, to walk and talk, eat and sleep just like his brothers and sisters. Did Jesus, Paul or any apostles charge for their ministry?? No, this is a mark of a false & self-centered teacher, who isn’t in a right relationship with Father God, or who can’t comprehend the kindness of God’s mercy.
I spent a lot of years in the Vineyard, and remember John Wimber with appreciation. This repeated discarding of all previous wisdom & lack of accountability is a weakness among many nondenominational and evangelical churches, and an open door to deception and abuse. I think at least some part of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is misrepresenting the ministry of the Holy Spirit to others, blaming God for things that are actually just your personal ideas, and giving people a wrong idea of & wrong experience of God. From personal experience I know that for many on the worship team, it has just become yet another time of performance, rather than actually touching the Father’s heart.
I’m now very happy in a plain Brethren church where people appreciate and learn from (especially Early) Church History, love respect & obey God’s Word, have living vibrant relationships with God and each other, and reach out to the hurting and lost with our Father’s love. We actually follow Matthew 18, and work out our differences respectfully rather than abusively. We have plural ministry (remember where it says to appoint elders in every city? This means plural overseers!!), so this brings balance and protection for the Body. One man alone is not the head of everyone else, we are all brethren involved in making decisions at our council meetings. Our goal is love, peace and unity within the local body- we’re a real family! No we’re not perfect, but we are growing up to learn what it means to love God and love each other. We focus primarily on Jesus, His Words, His Life & His Love! We follow Jesus every day in practical ways and are constantly looking for ways to help, serve and bless others in His name. God is our Father, and we are brothers and sisters serving God and following Jesus as our Shepherd King.
I’m so glad I found the plain Brethren! They have been such a therapeutic and healing faith family for me to recover in! (case you wonder, when I say plain Brethren I’m talking about churches such as the Dunkard Brethren, Old Brethren, German Baptist Brethren, Old Order River Brethren, Followers of the Way in Boston, etc.) Please look us up and come visit us! You are very welcome anytime!
💙🙏🏽💙
Well then, read the novel "Where Do We Go Now, LORD? - Burke." Explains much. Very much. A fun read, yet quite ameliorating. Enjoy!
Agree a Shepard Job is to take care of the flock willingly, not out of compulsion or what you can get out of it ; 2 nd Peter verse ,,5:2 it would be good if Alan would humble himself and apologize for the division he caused and return back the church to the Vineyard so healing could come and be at peace amongst the brothers
He won’t he’s a sociopath like most leaders
Thank you ... need expository preaching.
It was an honest report. I am concerned over how all this could happen. I understand your hurt and disappointment but I have been in the same spot. I had to let go and move. It was so hard but over a period of 1.5 years I daily had to say that I forgive thus and thus person unconditionally until the message hit me.
With time the pastor actually wrote to me (we are talking 10 years down the line) and expressed his sincere apology
Hi. I’ve mostly moved on. Just on occasion when I hear from someone who’s been hurt, I get reminded of my own experiences. I’ve been told by Dwelling Place leadership that it’s healthy only to focus on the positive things, which made me all the more want to speak up. Ignoring people who are being hurt only makes room for more abuse. There’s several things more in the church of Jesus to focus on, but if the condition of people isn’t one of them, then I’d say the church has altogether failed.
I’m glad to know that the person below is putting Alan Scott! It’s not right for him to tell people to leave the church that is so toxic! Wouldn’t Jesus bring people closer together instead of far apart? I’m not perfect at all and am working on myself but what he is doing is so wrong and it’s disheartening to hear because I really enjoy the worship team and now it’s like can I even trust them? Probably not 🤷♀️ this is exactly why I never join a church
Greatest among you shall be the least servant
OC Culture is part of the challenge on both sides of this crisis plus human nature....... I attended the Vineyard when Alan came he has a vision to transform the local community. Pray for healing of all those who have been hurt that they use this to grow in your faith.
The more I hear about various church communities around the country I find it’s not limited to OC. It seems there’s historical roots going back a couple hundred years of American churches splitting off and acting independently. The idea of being knit together seems oddly foreign in a world of non-denominational churches. Church history has a lot of baffling elements 😂
Alan is a classic narcissist
I'm not saying Alan is the Apostle Paul, but I pray for a road to Damascus moment for Alan, and that there is a Barnabas type to embrace Alan. That's my prayer.
Thanks for sharing. So disheartening but people need to know. Too much harm is being done to valuable, good people because of “pastors” like this.:-(
Is this pastor still the pastor there?
Hi. I believe so.
Judge dismisses $62m US lawsuit against controversial former NI pastor and singer wife. Wed 20 Dec 2023 at 22 :50 - Belfast Telegraph
I remember you John I felt the same way and I've been hanging around since Canyon High School the Scotts remind me of narcissist Rockstar wannabes😢
This week Anaheim Dwelling Place employed a person who a few weeks ago finished his job in Causeway Coast Vineyard (CCV).
So, officially CCV condemned Alan's actions but informally they "transfer" people to Anaheim.
Looks like small colonisation. 😅
Do you think CCV practice differs from their official statement about Alan??
I’m not sure about CCV. However, the last time I visited Vineyard Anaheim/Dwelling Place it was a week or two after their announced split. It stood out to me that everyone giving announcements from the stage had Irish accents. That didn’t bother me, but I wondered if they imported a lot of staff/crew. Not everyone agrees, but I’m more of the type that the local community should be invested in and grown.
@@openbookwithjohn1865 I see the problem at different point - credibility of CCV's statements (czcams.com/video/a8HOvMbWNJ0/video.html) .
At the moment the lead pastor of CCV is a husband of Alan Scot's wife's sister. Vineyard Society is convinced of his loyalty. But if you see another "export" of pastors from CCV to Dwelling Place it looks like sort of dual loyalty.
I still attend CCV and support that project and appreciate their service to God and community but it daoesn't make be blind to some intransparency.
@@kamilkonrad9497 I’m not sure if I understand. Are you suggesting some folks at CCV aren’t being fully transparent?
The only people from CCV I’ve personally interacted with are Alan and Kathryn. My personal experience has been as I’ve stated in my videos. They both can be a mixed bag (like any person). They also have an ability to be cutthroat in how they deal with people, and they use people. There is a culture that puts a so-called mission as priority and people as collateral damage. What’s worse is they display it as being what God desires and they gain influence over people who want to be loyal to the cause. They will see the questionable deeds and attitudes, but defend it because it’s “divisive” to say anything. They drink their own koolaid long enough to become numb to hearing anything different.
@@openbookwithjohn1865 I used to attend CCV and was burned by Alan. The leadership at CCV is saturated with Scotts, Hendersons and their lackeys. Nepotism is rife and the culture is toxic. Many well-respected families left CCV due to encounters with Alan. Bring people to God was a KPI rather than an act of love for Alan and Kathryn. On an outreach retreat, I remember he gave us all a figure we had to reach on conversions. On the second day, we were nowhere near it and Alan told us that God wanted us to fast. So all the food was removed and no one was allowed to eat. We didn't have a choice, apart from leaving the retreat that we had already paid for. He is a controlling, arrogant narcissist.
Reconciliation is possible and of huge value to the Lord. In fact, He said to leave your offering at the altar and make things right with your brother. He wants the healing of offenses and restoration of fellowship and love more than He wants our gifting or ministry! Jesus' command about this in Matt5:21 is one of the most ignored and disobeyed of all the things that He said. There has been a lot of bad church history because of this.
Alan Scott seems to view the ministry and pastorate of Lance Pittluck and others with real contempt. The wisdom and experience of older saints at the Vineyard has been discarded and viewed as an obstacle rather than a potential asset. A real spiritual weakness among charismatic non denominational churches is roots that are historically very shallow. The drive to be on the cutting edge and experiencing the new wine of the Spirit trump's everything else. Alan Scott doesn't even want to have ministry roots that are even 20 years old! The Vineyard movement is the spiritual grandfather of what Alan Scott began to do in Ireland. He needs to shed his Apostle's robes and truly learn from the wisdom and legacy of John Wimber and the Vineyard movement that he owes a lot too.
I dont view Alan as a brother or a Christian
@@johnmendoza7475 Why would you say that? He's on a power trip, but he obviously has spiritual gifts and a calling. If he isn't a believer, then your saying that the whole Vineyard search team that hired him was totally incompetent and undiscerning. That was not the case.
I used to watch Vinyard until the revelation that God told Alan Scott to change the church. No consultation, no affirmation from others in the church. I haven’t watched since that time. I don’t believe our God works by hurting his children and followers because He wants to change direction to follow the dreams of a Pastor who thinks he is the direct link with God and is infallible. The sooner the church is restored back to Vinyard the better….let’s hope the court case sorts this out.
Started attending Dwelling Place a month ago. Alan definitely laid down the word. Change is always messy.
It’s good to have the wisdom to know when Jesus has removed His candlestick. This man and the ex-drummer’s testimony constitute the witness needed to establish a thing. The candlestick is no longer there.
Thanks. I didn’t intend to pronounce judgement against a church, or to qualify (and disqualify?) a church like in Revelation. My hope was to spark conversation. It’s a shame that having conversations seems so impossible.
Reconciliation yes, with prayer and if at all possible. But remember it is not always possible. PAUL SAID, 'there must be divisions among you to show who is approved(of God)." If one heart is right with God and another is not, how can they be agreed, or walk together? It sometimes time to move on. God has something else.
do some research on the jezebel spirit and it will all make sense ; there is also no reconciliation possible with that spirit , they are simply not interested
Sad.
Alan Scott would say things like the Annaheim Vineyard has been offending the HS for the last 20 years. (10:58) He was the one come to rescue it... wow... plenty of humility then...
What is the primary evidence that a person really knows God?
1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
“He who does not love does not know God.”
********
The thing is they have been taken over by Bethel. Are you aware of Bethel's theology (Dominion theology - Now and Now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns also known as latter rain, manifest sons of God and todays incarnation New Apostolic Reformation).
From when it came in in the 1950's through William Branham to the Kansas city prophets & today's bethel, they have all gone beyond scripture to get more power.
More power is much more important than love despite the famous scripture, you healed in my name etc but on that day i will say i never knew you. That comes after the sermon on the mount (end of Matt 7).
And to get more power, Bethel are into grave soaking and their book The Physics of Heaven is truly out there... you find that William Branhams miracles went off the record when his angel was present (idolatory), Derek prince is on record as saying that Branham moved in the demonic in his book 'Protection against Deception'.
Clifford Hill in the UK refused to do the forward to the kansas city prophets book in the 1990's because he discerned an evil spirit operating among them especially Bob Jones (have a look at his chapter in the Physics of Heaven).
At that time Clifford Hill warned John Wimber and also that there is no revival without repentance.
the irony is that Wimber ended up throwing the kansas city prophets out of the vineyard... as he said everyone gets to play, not just the super apostles and prophets of the KCP. That was the version of dominion theology then, today it has been taken over by todays incarnation of dominion theology, the new apostolic reformation (NAR).
Clifford Hill in the UK went public at a national day of prayer we had in 2019 about the NAR lot who had been invited behind his back.. ..as you scroll down there is a good summary of NAR and its associated Bethel books... Holly Pivec has written some good books (unfortunately she is a cessationist which muddies the water but well documentated)
www.prophecytoday.uk/comment/editorial/itemlist/tag/dominionism.html
Can you say Waco???
Unfortunately the “under shepherd” thing is IMHO a very fleshly thing. For me personally I just want to study and dig into scripture.
I don’t want a mini concert and call it worship.
I don’t want or need fog machines.
I don’t need atmospheric lighting.
I don’t need queued up videos.
I don’t need quotes from famous people.
I just want Jesus.
I want straight scripture not fluffy words or motivational nonsense.
I want to ask questions freely without feeling apprehensive or embarrassed.
A small group setting with good back and forth discussions is my favorite format for learning and growing.
My least favorite format is the Sunday morning service with a mini concert and then one guy talks for 30 minutes.
FWIW. 🙏
🙂 🙂
Alan put many sycophant in leadership positions, and removed quality pastors who would have challenged him. I had enough when one of his sycophants stated from the stsge that God not only wants to pay off your mortgage, but your neighbors also. As that was ridiculous and not scriptural, I had enough of Alan's nonsense. Vineyard used to be a great church lead by men of God. I am glad he changed the name so it is not soiled
Stay in a church and be a blessing as long as you are blessed by ministry according to the Word of God. If you are getting a bad atttitude or becoming bitter it is time to go. But don't damage others. Each one is responsible for his own spiritual walk and the pastor and leadership cannot do everything or be there for everybody. They have families and obligations too, yet try to miinster to many others, usually at great personal cost doing far more than their critics.
501c3 churches are a corporation, big business.
I know some churches that hold open and public meetings to discuss finances. They even have time for questions to discuss pros n cons on certain spending. I have a lot of respect for that. But when churches have private meetings to discuss finances, I gotta wonder what they’re talking about. What big secret spending is there?
The Dwelling place has been a massive blessing in our families lives. Posting a message like this on social media does nothing to promote unity and it brings shame to the name of Christ. If you feel you have a grievance make it to the church directly and if they do not respond that’s between them and God.
I agree with you in that disunity does not glorify Jesus. I agree with you that there are many who have been blessed.
Jesus gives pretty clear guidance on how brothers are to be. “Love another as I have loved you.” Better translated, “lay down your life for one another as I have laid my life down for you.” When we sin against one another, Jesus gives a path to forgive and be reconciled. He even says that’s more important in priority than making an offerings. Hands have been offered for a long time, in private. When all the private ways have been exhausted, Jesus expressly says to go public…in efforts to win your brother over. When the grievances involve exploiting people for money, treating people as wallets, it begs to question whether it’s important to speak up or look the other way. Is it loving to watch your neighbors get taken advantage of? Is it loving to see your brothers walk down a wrong path and say nothing?
This is a very good comment. An important part of the puzzle. God will correct and discipline and after we confront in love our job is done. If you try to do the angel's work of pulling up the tares you will destroy the wheat also. The tares purify the wheat as they grow alongside each other.
I agree to some degree, but I also disagree. Yes, you should go to the leadership to bring up any unresolved issues. However, the Bible does teach that we should be aware of false profits and false teachers. In this case, Alan Scott is a false teacher. He’s a narcissist. People need to know this. When you have a narcissist, as a leader, the whole culture of the church and its leaders is untouchable. Things end up being as either you’re in, or you’re out. They’ll say things like your for us or you’re against us. You’ve bought this culture or you haven’t. You can bring up issues, but the end result will always be somehow your fault. That is the characteristic of a narcissistic leader. People need to be aware of this, and I see no problem in someone making a video to let people know.
$1100!!! At 22:57. Talk about man made nonsense 😮😅
Freely you have received so freely give to ME!! Duh.
God moves people on from a church for many reasons: their own personal growth, calling, testing and to allow new people to get experience. We are not called to stay in one church our whole lives except in rare cases. We must follow the Shepherd. Human beings and churches are imperfect. I wish John would see this and bless the church for what he received and then move on. I am a missionary living in Albania for 15 years and am sorry to see videos like this that don't edify.
Hi. You touch on a lot of interesting points. There’s a fundamental outlook on what church is or isn’t, that creates what I call the modern American church. Traditionally, church is a community and a body of Jesus people, learning to love one another and be Jesus in the world. Then there’s the more modern (and perhaps ancient too?) church that is approached as a self-help school, to gain personal growth, and move on to the next level. These two churches are often at odds with one another, with people who don’t want to feel stagnant and those who are content with status quo. From what I see in church history, the church is both those who stay and those who go out.
The question in particular for Dwelling Place and similar, are people being chased out? And further, are people there actually being cared for as Jesus cares for His flock? When we see people being treated poorly in the name of Jesus, and it’s defended as good, are we to just shrug and say “I don’t like this, so God must be calling me elsewhere and I should bless the abuse in the name of unity?” I tried to speak with leadership as a brother, privately, and I was told the issues were with me, and that I should look for another church. Seeing I was no longer of service, I left. But over the past few years I’ve been hearing more and more stories of what’s going on, I felt I could no longer mind my own business. It’s not a pleasant feeling, but I think God calls us to deal with problems in the church, with the goal of healing and brotherhood. That is the definition of edification…to build and strengthen weaknesses.
And Albania sounds cool, by the way. I’ll be in Greece for most of October. Maybe somehow we could meet up!
@@openbookwithjohn1865 You were in the church many years. It may be that God wanted to do more with your life than you were doing there. He may have called you to leave more than once but you did not heed the call. After a while, when the grace to stay in a place has lifted completely, and the Holy Spirit is grieved with our remaining, a circumstance will arise in which God stirs up the nest like the eagle does and the eaglet, though late, must now fly. But when God sends you out of the nest, in this case the church, go with a heart to bless the place you left for all the good you received so many times while there. Whatever you do, don't cause more heartbreak, or attack the leaders. Be an intercessor. Beware of touching God's anointed. Having never served in a full time ministry position carrying such weight, responsibility and spiritual attack, you are probably in no position to judge attitudes you saw them have at certain times. You may have done far worse in their situation under the pressures, and you know your own personal sin and weakness which may be far worse. As a brother, baptized in the Spirit 41 yrs. ago and serving in churches and on the mission field many years I would strongly encourage you not to make any more of this type of video. "Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and make manifest the counsel of every man's heart".
PS. Thank you for your reply.
I also need to note this reply and my comment from @83Christ83 two days ago:
The Dwelling place has been a massive blessing in our families lives. Posting a message like this on social media does nothing to promote unity and it brings shame to the name of Christ. If you feel you have a grievance make it to the church directly and if they do not respond that’s between them and God.
my reply: This is a very good comment. An important part of the puzzle. God will correct and discipline and after we confront in love our job is done. If you try to do the angel's work of pulling up the tares you will destroy the wheat also. The tares purify the wheat as they grow alongside each other.
Alan Scott is from Scotland not Ireland.
Alan Scott was born and raised in Scotland . He pastored a church - Causeway Coast Vineyard-in Northern Ireland.
It's all a cult... ie, Protestantism