Is Misty Edwards A Victim? - Podcast with Dr. David Pooler
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- čas přidán 29. 05. 2024
- A recent report published by The Roys Report on the alleged "affair" between worship leader Kevin Prosch and longtime International House of Prayer Kansas City leader Misty Edwards sent shock waves through the charismatic Christian community.
But was this relationship consensual, or was it abuse? Journalist Julie Roys discusses this important issue with Professor David Pooler of Baylor University, an expert on adult clergy sexual abuse.
This program was also released as an audio podcast and transcript on Mar. 13, 2024:
julieroys.com/podcast/is-mist...
Read the story "Prominent Worship Leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards Confessed a Years-Long Affair, Sources Say":
julieroys.com/prominent-worsh...
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"In my research, one of the things that's most damaging actually to survivors is the church response, if that makes sense. It's not just the nature of the injury itself, but it's the way the institution fails to respond adequately by believing them and supporting them and validating them and helping them get help, and then holding the abusive leader accountable or removing them from ministry or out of the way so they can't harm anybody else. We just tend to continue to elevate the abusive person and shove the victim right out the door."
--Dr. David Pooler
This is 100% true.
This is so true. It's called" the second wound".
Allen Hood and other leaders were ket carefully in the dark and they were al seduced by the prophecy and the teachings which were presented as new and binding truth. From God.
This is where I'd like to thank the advocate group that believed Jane Doe's story and went through the heartache with her and never backed down but kept it going so that more and more victims and more and more support for victims could come forward. They took the abuse from IHOPKC leaders and financially took a hit as well. Let their example be a witness to others in similar situations.
So what did Misty say? She's not a victim. So I believe her
Problem is, in the US especially, pastors do not want to be pastors. They want to be super stars.
Right. Biblically, being a pastor is hard work. It's Christ. It's literally giving up your life so that the sheep can live.
There are good pastors, even in the US. But there definitely is a celebrity church model in many of our churches.
🎯 cheap entertainment
Gross 🤮
Yup and so do the "church musicians"
@@wtan5814 🤢🤮
CELEBRITY CHRISTIANITY - it’s time for this to GO!!! Who do these people think they are??!!!
Here is the problem with Misty having affairs, that do no make her a victim, her pretense to be celibate and lying to the whole world about it, creating an image of herself that's simply not true, authentic or in any way shape or form even close to holy living and sexual abstinence. It's one thing to be a victim of sexual abuse and mind control, but a whole other thing going around making a living off of creating a false, deceptive, lying narrative about yourself. She literally slept with married men, that is betrayal to the wives, the woman of these men. And in the same way she stabbed the victims in the back and perhaps this time she was being honest when she said, I am not a victim. You may want to consider that.
The fact that she had an affair is minor when compared to lying to the public about her sacrifices and virtues, crafting a message for IHOP that manipulated the congregation for two decades.
Thank you!!! I went to this Church for 20 years. That is exactly how Misty and Mike BIckle portrayed Misty. It was a PT Church for me. Never attended full time. To say Mike B. and Misty had a bizarre relationship is very true. She always followed him around and always sitting at events either next to him or behind him.
This is indeed difficult to understand, UNLESS you’ve been a victim…
I have had a friend that was part of a sexual abuse case with clergy. The mind games go deep. Embracing the truth basically destroyed her whole world and had to go through years of counseling
Misty was abused of Bickle 14 years old. Predators only go for them who already has broken barrieres, meaning she most probably has been abused or very neglected as a child. When Bickles brother in law, Prosh, came, she already has gone into a "self protective" mode or you might call it a Stockholm syndromet, wich is to decieve yourself to believe you're not a victim, to be able to survive. So INDEED, she IS a victim. Scripture is Scripture anyway, and God is holy, so the consequences will still come upon the involved. BUT God knows the fact, also, that already abused in a younger age, it is not the knowledge of the Scripture that leads her out of this because she most probably had a learnt pattern; " not getting a way with this heavy grown up man, might as well try to survive, and because reality is too hurtful one start pretend to overcome". You don't run if you've learnt in an early age that you don't have possibility to escape. So, INDEED she is a victim and of course, after counselling she might be able to reflect .
If this man, Prosch (forgot his first name) had a pattern of having sexual affairs with past women, WHY WAS HE ALLOWED TO BE IN A HIGHLY VISIBLE, LEADERSHIP ROLE YET AGAIN?? That alone is very disturbing!! Even if he supposedly “repented” for past affairs, he should still never be placed in a position of leadership ever again in a church! He has already shown by his past behavior (even before the affair with Misty), that he has a severe weakness with sex outside of marriage!
I mean, this guy claimed he was a born again Christian, and had sexual relations with women as a supposed “believer”! This entire scenario just makes me SO ANGRY. We really need to get “right” with God…….
Let's not forget he gave Misty drugs.
Because he was “restored” and the fact that he’s as sociopath was missed by his confessional tactics
Its because when people are “anointed” they are not held accountable
@@Rubester-cl6op Yeah, Prosch was “anointed” - by the devil !!
We need to quit putting “NEW BELIEVERS” who have come out of the World’s Music business, which (Cleary….!) Kevin has, Immediately into a position of
Leadership, because of their passion and TALENT, when they are NOT READY for the responsibility of the JOB. But, Welcome to how we miss use GarEAT TALENT in the USA…! Jesus, Says…! Go and Make Disciples… Not go and be a talent Scout for the Kingdom. The American Church knows VERY little about the serious business
Of discipling NEW BABIES in the LORD. I came out of the music business. Christians have a history of exploiting talent. For their own purposes. It’s a trap. Kevin was NOT ready and spiritually prepared to be a famous Christian Worship Leader when he started. It’s a battle and he wasn’t mature in the fight. Blame the one who know nothing about preparing one with great talent for service. They ( the lack of maturity in discipleship church) USE talent just like the world does for their own gain and popularity. This is on the so called church who does not understand the call from Jesus, too disciple new Converts. Kevin was used … way too soon.
Kevin should never have been reinstated to ministry, he's a predator. At the same time if Misty had openly confessed her sins without trying to control consequences, the blackmail would no longer have had power over her. Christian celebrity culture is dying a gruesome death. The American church is being humbled in these times, and on the other side I look forward to a clearer understanding and practice of the priesthood of all believers.
A victim? She was an adult and responsible for her actions.
Bickle started abuse one of the girls at 14, I have understood it was Misty and Bickles brother in law, Prosch continued the abuse from she was 18. None of these were normal grown ups affair. She wasn't recovered from the first one.
She was coerced since being a teenager. Years of brainwashing
Let's see: KP and ME were both in leadership and effectively clergy at IHOPKC. The affair began when she was in her thirties, long after the age differences would be a problem. Yes, there was apparently blackmail to continue the affair, but that occured well after the affair began. Misty Edwards is like Fredo: just as complicit as everyone else in the criminal enterprise.
100%
I watched a recent short video called "Young Misty Edwards: My early years." Because of the pictures in the background, it looks like Misty was already a spokesperson for IHOPKC by this time. Her testimony makes her the perfect poster girl for what MB was looking for in the young people he was recruiting.
IHOPKC definitely had many cult-like practices where one takes on the persona, along with everyone else, that everything is so awesome about this "ministry" and especially the leader. You stop thinking for yourself and you put your heart and soul into this "genuine" movement of God.
My point is that Misty's spiritual identity was most likely securely tethered to IHOPKC right from the start while under the leadership of a pedophile and predator and before her brain was fully developed. This identity becomes more hard wired in her brain with each passing month, year, decade, etc. Now people expect her to have made healthy, godly decisions once she reached her 30's. It doesn't usually work that way.
I'd disagree - whilst she has made mistakes and isn't perfect, the nature of emotional abuse and blackmail is way more complicated and it doesn't help empower victims if they're continually blamed for the abuse of power dynamic by a perpetrator who holds more power.
@nb00-zt5nx the blackmail followed the affair; it did not initiate the affair. The choice had already been made. Moreover, the blackmail worked because the people involved had already been committed to a policy of preaching extreme ascetic behavior to a willing and generous congregation , while living entirely different lives. Prosch and Edwards were manipulating the people at IHOP for power and personal enrichment--it was those people who were abused. Prosch and Edwards solicited donations by claiming to live lives that were lies.
@@nb00-zt5nx she is not a victim.
In the late 1980’s (when I was enrolled in a Bachelor of Theology program) I spent two of the summers working for an international arts festival. One of the young women at the festival office (who was only two years younger than me) told me in confidence that she was determined to seduce the nationally known & married male opera singer booked for the festival.
There were fifteen or sixteen years age difference between them. She noted that he had at least noticed her. She was very visually attractive as a young woman and had got it into her head that seducing a married man was some sexual/existential ’trophy’. She isn’t the only woman I’ve known since then who felt a need or impulse to seduction of a married person (though thankfully they do seem to be the exception rather than the norm).
The danger of the presumptions in this video conversation is the presumption that young adult women aren’t emotionally or sexually capable of their own freely chosen predatory/seductive behaviour. It’s most often ‘academics’ who create these cleanly delineated but abstractly presumed subjective notions such as the ‘person with all the power’ & the ‘vulnerable victim’. Real and actual families and church communities and romantic/sexual relationships are anything except cleanly delineated by perfect ideological categories of reference. Real life is messy because the lines between whom seduced whom can blur substantially (though certainly not in all scenarios or in most scenarios… each particular scenario does require rigorous and nuanced critical thinking).
Not all presumed ‘victims’ are actually 100% innocent victims at all… but if the reporting or the story presents the verified/accurate data responsibly then nuances and critically important details will not be hidden under the rubric of “lets not blame the victim at any point”. Nothing contextualized in this discussion in the video has dissuaded me from believing that Misty does need to presume a measure of responsibility (where she clearly had an opportunity to turn and flee from ‘sin’ but she chose to do the opposite of that sadly… and repeated that decision multiple times unfortunately).
Well, MB has a history of predatory behavior ie) preying on a 14 yr old when he was a grown man? I doubt if Misty Edwards preyed on "the secret" or on the other serial adulterer. IHOP was a bastion of immorality and hiddeness yuck & now The Lord is burning it to the ground!
Thank you for thinking this through and giving another perspective.
@@vedawattieram1974 🙏🏻😎👊🏻🙏🏻
I don't doubt these two in the video are aware of what you are saying but that was not the point of this particular video. It was about CA and CSA.
It is difficult to fully delineate consensual vs victim. But you acknowledged both may apply here. Thus, what is the victimized part? THATS important. What made her susceptible? On top of that is the inclusion of black mail. The fact he admitted as far back as 1999 to numerous adulterous "affairs" and that he groomed the women. These are horrifically predatory behaviors. What astounds me is why was he still in ministry? He's a big bad wolf in sheep's clothing. Victim and/or consensual, there is an excruciating sowing and reaping that not only affects those directly involved but a whole ministry. The Lord has said that what is hidden will come to light. Tragically necessary.
I was a pastor’s wife who discovered her husband was having an affair. I told the elders. He told them I was lying. They believed him and told me to leave their pastor alone.
I am so sorry 😞 that's truly heartbreaking 💔 I prayed God's justice ⚖️ and vindication for you, Ruth. He sees you. He hears you. You are not alone. The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace. 🫂🙏💙🌬
😫
"Their Pastor" ugh...twisted. The culture in the church really has become very dysfunctional. I've seen and experienced it for myself. God really is cleaning it up and cleaning it out. Sad that he could devalue you that way through an affair and then allow the elders to put their demonic stamp on your worth. Praying God's complete restoration and recompense over your life.
😢 So sorry
I pray that you get on the road of healing and them use your story to help others.
After I was delivered from " the spirit of abuse" people who are abusers did draw to me like a magnet. Praise the Lord Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I find it interesting that you were trying to decide between Misty, being either fully victim, or fully culpable. I’ll keep listening, and maybe you’ll get this, but I keep thinking can’t both be true at the same time? Can she not be victimized by his position and age, etc.? And at the same time, she was not without agency. She made choices that she is accountable for as well. There is space for both these things to be true at the same time. And I do think scripture supports that., Thing can be true without absolving the other.
I was thinking the same thing both can be true at the same time. I am at the 36min mark and will keep listening but I haven't heard yet about Misty's personal responsibilities and consequences for the sin choices she made in all this. I mean shouldn't every Christian who names the name of Christ be practicing a sanctified and holy lifestyle that represents Christ to the world? BUT leaders including Misty as a worship leader are even held to a higher biblical standard for leadership because of the high visibility and influence they have. If they have moral failings they should be disqualified from leadership BUT can be restored after a long period of going through the restoration process.
Abuse is complicated. Cognitive dissonance, love bombing… so so much…
Problem here is that two related abusers in the same church enwirement took advantage on the same girl. Bickles abused her from age 14 and her not even recovered from that, his brother in law, Prosch, continued abuse her from she was 18.
Agreed. It's like Eve. Victim of deception and temptation, but accountable as to how she handled it. "The devil made me do it" is a kindergarten concept. She knew better.
Thank you Julie and Dr Pooler!!
You are the forerunners.
You will be proven right in your work. Do not grow weary of well doing~ Expose the darkness.
We need you ♥
Thank you for this. I was a victim to this at 16 by a Bible study leader. I do think she’s a victim, partially. In her 30s and 40s tho, I think she had a vastly larger amount of maturity in her to make choices to seek help prior to continuing these relationships for years. I pray she finds the help she needs to stand back and look at maybe the needs she had to fill by making those choices. But as a younger girl I’m sure there was brainwashing that took her down a dark path. Sad but true. Let me say AM NOT victim blaming. She tho was not a lowly congregant…she was high up leader..power dynamics not the same. Tho K clearly was a pr;da(tor. It’s so complicated😢
It sounds like she stayed in the relationship because he was going to blackmail her. She wanted to keep her other secret a secret.
The church is the victim here, guys. Stop idolizing Misty.
I totally, totally agree that the church is a victim. I have never felt a sense of anything close to idolization for either the leaders or Misty in this situation. I think we can compare the dynamics we see in Misty's situation with the dynamics we see in clergy sexual abuse situations without idolizing Misty. We can, also, see that it appears that the dynamics in Misty's situation are similar to dynamics in clergy sexual abuse situations and have compassion on Misty without idolizing her in the least.
We are the church. People are the church. People are the ones who get hurt.
@@tammiespidell7305 Baloney. Kevin Prosch and she were both adults. He was not her superior. Baloney. Famous Misty gets a pass.
Yes
Misty, like the rest of us, ARE the church.
Are we not?
Re-victimizing women who have been groomed, manipulated, emotionally raped into silence, "OR ELSE", is what Julie along with everyone advocating for the weak, the least of these, the fearful, the oppressed, the captive, and the slave --- Want to EXPOSE the darkness for what it is!
Isn't THAT whom Jesus said (Luke4:18) he came to set at liberty/free them from bondage??
Those who are skeptical have NEVER been in this position so you cannot understand it!
(or maybe you are the manipulator/groomer/adulterer/abuser and the truth exposes you---so THAT pisses you off!)
Julie exposes the darkness BUT has nothing to gain for it but pushback and backlash for DEFENDING the Work of JESUS!
The abused are afraid to expose it ~ because of deniers or misogynists that believe the lie this doesn't happen in the church. IT DOES!
I am so thankful for The Advocates, such as Dr Pooler.
This is real y'all ---- read it for yourself.
There are just too many victims to IGNORE!
calledtopeace.weebly.com/
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice Lawlessness.’
"The system is set up to make victims" So true. A lot of grooming going on in there.
The thing that still bugs me is how did leaders like Allen Hood and the rest not see any of this. How do you miss it for all those years?
Many wifes don't even know their husbands' double life. That's when you actually live with the person. I think you overestimate people's sensitivity to others.
How did the disciples, who walked with Jesus, not discern Judas was a thief and a betrayer of Jesus?
Michael Miller from Remnant Radio Was on Wake Up and Win podcast and Remnant did one recently too - they talked about the entire culture of leaders under Mike, as a master manipulator, were like frog in a pot. Also victims of his manipulation. Im just proud of them for having open eyes and repentant heart now. When you hear them speak now they have a lot of angst as they ask themselves the same question.
@@user-ww5uv6uh7h, they probably did.
I want to scream listening to this! Dont you understand?? There shouldn't be Pastors, Leaders ect.. Only a body of believers, different function's yes but accountable to eachother only not to an individual. The church is meant to self govern from within the group itself not giving that power to an individual in a worldly hierarchy model.
❤❤❤
I think you’ll appreciate this talk by Lance Ford from our last Restore Conference. czcams.com/video/WuE4Gfre8b8/video.html
Thank you Julie 😭 @@JulieRoysReport
Yes the church is far behind the world in handling abuse. Yes, a counselor, social worker, etc would lose their license and not allowed to practice again.
There is less freedom of speech in the church for women than in the world. I have been targeted demonized, and driven out of my last 2 churches for expressing my views. Both pastors are still preaching.
The world isn’t handeling it well either just looking at Larry’s nasar the Olympic dr getting away with it for twenty years and Epstein just as examples. But the church should set the example for integrity. I expect for the church to handle it better
The church is behind the world in EVERYTHING! Evolution, trans rights, gay rights, vaccinations…..most of the North American church is rightwing, willfully ignorant, and even fascist, in their ideology. It’s so disturbing
There shouldn't be leaders in the way we understand leaders today.
Most people want to be a leader. Very few want to be a servant.
Agree
You're right. Everyone calling themselves a "leader" or acting as one in a Christian environment is in actual, wilfull disobedience.
"But Jesus called them unto him, and said:
"Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; and whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
even as the son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:25-28)
...neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock" (1 Peter 5:3)
And 1st Corinthians chapter 12!
Why aren’t the “Godly” men in these churches who can see that another man is behaving wrong then stand up to the potential sexual advances toward girls and women? Men know men and what makes each other tick. My husband knows when another man is coming on to me when I can’t sometimes.
Why didn’t Sam Storms see what MB was doing when he kept exclaiming how cute Jane Doe was and adorable? Where was his head at hearing those comments?! We women have been taught to hold each other accountable such as how we dress and act around the opposite sex (for years), what about the men?
You men need to start calling each other out on the carpet! … I shouldn’t even have to say that to you.
I was raised with 3 brothers and raised 7 boys myself… I know how they think and THEY know how they think. COME ON GUYS!
So so GOOD! 👏🏽
@@amyturner4562 It’s just beyond me! 🤦♀️
There are not any godly men. 99% are watching trafficked women in pornography. Wishing it was them. Makes me puke.
Thank you, @JulieRoysReport. God bless you!
As for the victims having getting into healthy recovery, they need to acknowledge their abuser as a predator and he is responsible for the affair/abuse.
It's actually not an affair.
@@cjshine7984 Yes, I agree. Allow mt to clarify. The victim must take on the role that she was abused by the spiritual leader and not blaming herself for the incident. If she does not accept this, she may run the risk of having long term pain and little hope for survival.
Grooming by homosexuals is a topic to keep aware of - know what it is…
Julie Roys knows about the first person Misty talked about, the one Misty was terrified the relationship would become public. Julie Roys said there was CSA in that relationship but could not speak it. You can gather from this that when she calls Misty a victim, she knows what she's talking about; definitely more than the rest us who are commenting here do. Dr. David Pooler is an expert on CSA - are any of us commenting here experts?
Some of you are being judge and jury without knowing the WHOLE story. Maybe pray more and criticize less so Misty will one day be in a place where she can honestly and publicly speak about her life at IHOPKC.
Your right we should hear from Misty not a so called investigative journalist trying to put words in Misty's mouth she has not spoken but Misty is trying to take responsibility for her own choices and actions in all this. Trying to Psychoanalysis every case as a victim only, from a secular view putting human terms on it that has no concept of sin that covers up what it really is sin will not lead to heartfelt repentance. "Victimhood" minimizes sin and a persons own responsibility.
Misty had a world wide ministry of her own so she really did not need to be under IHOPKC. BUT Misty is disqualified from being a worship leader at this point under the biblical standards for leadership. Worship leaders out on their own with no accountability then we know the power of the flesh that can take down our ministry. I believe the problem is being separated from the local church that on a smaller level has the ability for accountability for we all as Christ followers need accountability because of the pull of sin to pull us away from Christ.
@@Charleston4Jesus I agree with your second paragraph but not your first.
@@cult11 Ha its ok I write in away sometimes people will disagree and that is ok but keep reading you may agree on something else I wrote. lol
I just think its a sad situation no matter how you slice it. I just wonder how much these leaders are really in the word because they get so busy with leading ministry making money for themselves that they not taking care of their own soul that they are in danger. The word will clean you out and The Holy Spirit convict you of sin.
While I am Charismatic but I wonder the way some HYper-Charismatic ministries like IHOPKC is structured around an overemphasis on prophesying, visions and dreams than the Word of God and the process of sanctification that is minimized so sin is not properly dealt with. Yes I know no matter if your in a Charismatic church or ministry or non-charismatic the power of the flesh will still pull you away from Christ.
I just wonder where were the brothers at to speak into Misty's life.
It seems that is what was missing the most is personal accountability that we all need believers in our life that will not tell us what we want to hear but tell us the truth even if the truth hurts. It just seems to me these type ministries like IHOPKC that get so big that leaders are kinda off on their own doing there own thing not in the Word. When ministry becomes a business then your protecting the business because its your livlihood. Its the same thing we saw in the Ravi Zacharias scandal among others. It becomes more about your livlihood than doing the right thing because if the sins is found out and made public then the ministry is tore down thus there goes your livlihood,.
The systems of protection don't work on the public school system, in universities, in the counseling field. The church is not alone in having systems that aren't working.
The thing is, I think it's important to recognize that it's not an "either/or" question. Someone can be aware that what they are doing is morally wrong, and still be a victim of abuse and manipulation. In situations like that, it's a disservice to the victim to merely label it as an "affair" (as if there were no power imbalance) OR to label it solely as "abuse" without recognizing the victim's agency and moral responsibility. (I am talking about situations between two adults when the victimized adult was not physically forced, coerced by threats, or manipulated to the point where they genuinely couldn't recognize that the situation was wrong. Some situations even with adults ARE purely abuse, where the victim really didn't have agency.)
As a society, we struggle with these "both-and" situations. Other examples include people struggling with addiction (both a disease and a series of choices) and crimes committed by people with mental illness. In the latter situation, juries are commonly asked to decide guilt based on the question, "Did the person realize they were doing something wrong?" If not, they get to plead "not guilty by reason of insanity." If they did, they can still be declared guilty even though mental illness may have played a role in their crime. I think we can apply a similar question in cases like this.
Great comment! I relate to addictions being a former addict. I went through many secular programs that tried to make an excuse for my addictions. This was before I came to Christ.Things like my Alcoholism is hereditary. Basicly the idea was nothing I can do about my addictions I can only try to maintain through "treatment." Basicly the secular world gave me alot of justification to keep drinking which led me down a road of destruction because that is where all sin leads you. I came to Christ later and was freed from my addictions. ThankYOU Jesus!
I worked at a secular Recovery Center that alot of the "treatment" for addicts came from the "scientific" world like some "smart" people behind a computer tries to figure out addicts. lol It was more therapeutic agains treating them like a "victim." I am like these people are never going to be free this way. They got to see how their sin is destroying their life. But in all honesty I do not believe they wanted to see them free because the "treatment" of addictions is a multibillion dollar industry. They need them to keep coming back to maintain to keep the money flow coming. They get millions from the state.
I was waiting for the day to come to where I was fired lol because I was steadily telling them about Christ in a discrete way. The question is Do you want to be Free? Everyone has a choice. I do not pick up the language of the secular world to where everyone is a "victim." No its called sin. In the biblical worldview we understand sin is what is destroying peoples lives so that we can give them the right solution Christ. Until they get honest with themselves and come face to face with their sin will they ever be encouraged to change to repent.
@@Charleston4Jesus My point, though, is that BOTH are true. You can be a victim of manipulation or coercion or addiction or mental illness and STILL have moral agency and responsibility in the matter, at the same time. When it comes to addiction, I think it's important to recognize the psychological factors that make the temptation so powerful and the physical/ neurochemical aspects of addiction that can be treated.... while still affirming the possibility and necessity of individual responsibility (and the work of God in setting all of us free from sin).
@@Vivian_Bush I agree in some cases it can be both a victim while at the same time a person has a free will moral agency that are held responsible for there own choices in life. However, I stress that is not the case in all cases as each case must be evaluated on a case by case basis. So its not a one size fits all approach. Most the time you will find out it was just the power of the flesh.
BUT in Misty's case from what we know up to this point, she was a worship leader who was living a double life what biblical language would call hypocrisy but she was also caught up in an abusive system. So she was a victim of the manipulated abusive system at IHOPKC which has cultlike tendencies. BUT where I disagree with Julie Roys is she only wants to view Misty Edwards as a "victim" without taking her sin choices into account that she was an adult and knows right from wrong. She chose to live in habitual continual sin in why Misty Edwards should not be restored to any leadership position in ministry or in a church.
As far as addictions go being a former addict myself how one becomes an addict does not happen overnight in most cases. It didn't with me. It happens over a period of time. You do not realize your becoming addicted until its to late. There can be many underlining problems why someone may have the potential of becoming an addict. In some cases a person may use because of being abused early in childhood trying to use drugs or alcohol to cover up their hurt and pain. We would call that a victim of abuse while they also must take responsibility for their own choices that may kill them in the end because they are destroying themselves. That is all sin does is destroys relationships, jobs and all areas of life.
But what I have found out in over 20yrs of ministry to addicts is they, like myself, simply use Alcohol or drugs for pleasure. My Dad who is 77 and a severe Alcoholic that I confronted him not long ago about why he drinks like he drinks. He said, Son I been doing this my whole life. I drink because I like to drink. I can accept that more than lying to me because he was being brutally honest and what I have found out in most addiction cases is they use simply out of pleasure.
Basicly what happens is you get in this circle that you can't find your way out. The bible would call it sin cycle or slave to sin a servant of sin. Addictions are habit forming. You may start out as a user then go to abuser then to full blown addiction. In biblical language we would call this habitual sin. I won't go deep into that but all sin is habit forming if we let the flesh take over. That is why we must exercise our will to yield to the Holy Spirit daily to die to our flesh daily.
Alot of addicts can't seem to break free from it because it has them enslaved to it just like we all was a slave to sin before Christ broke the power of sin in our lives that we received the power of the Holy Spirit to be able to fight the fleshly desires that is still present in us until the Lord comes back or we die and go home to be with the Lord. Whichever comes first.
We look at all people the same as Christ came to save sinners, They need Christ. Everyone needs Christ! Alot of times like myself it may take some prison time to take you out of the world for a period of time to get some clean time behind you. Basicly breaking the habitual patterns of sin addictions but that is only part of it. You have to learn who you are IN Christ that you have a real enemy that seeks to steal, kill and destroy your life. BUT Christ came to give you abundant Life IN Him. AMEN!
Someone else in the comments mentionned 1 Corinthians 10;13: "And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." I was thinking of that verse too. My opinion is it is healthy to let the "victim" repent of what she feels she needs to repent of. According to Deuteronomy 22;24, the girl should scream when being harassed sexually. God holds the young woman responsible to call for help. Of course the older guy who is grooming, deceiving, and manipulating is fully responsible as well.
Not to contradict Deut 22:24, besides the fight or flee response, there is also the freeze response.
"The freeze response involves a different physiological process than fight or flight. Research from 2015 describes it as “attentive immobility.” While the person who is “frozen” is extremely alert, they are also unable to move or take action against the danger. Freezing causes: physical immobility." (Fight, flight, or freeze response: Signs, causes, and recovery by Medical News Today)
There is an ongoing dynamic in my community at a local church where the pastor has indeed groomed women leaders under him to get other young women into a kind of pipeline for them to be groomed and sexually harassed in pastoral counseling. In this interview the perception is that that scenario is more rare in clergy sexual abuse. I have no idea the incidence in general; but the one case near us where I and my family were attending services definitely had that dynamic. It's horrible and sad and so hard to get accountability from anywhere. We are not one of those 14 states with a law holding clergy accountable as pther professionals. But the courageous whistle-blower who came forward to expose it helped warn away our family before we were harmed (had a daughter at risk of being put in the pipeline when she came of age). We have been blessed to come alongside this brave survivor and do all we know to do to expose it and warn people. Not for the faint of heart. Grateful for all Julie and this man and the army of people like them are doing in each of their unique roles to do their part to bring exposure and accountability!! Jesus said to occupy until He comes - and so we do; but how we long for His perfect Truth!! ❤️🕊️🔥
Grateful for you and the whistleblower. I think all of us play a part in rooting out this evil.
🩷🙏🏻 prayers
I was associated with a cult in Ohio where the leader indeed groomed at least one woman leader under him to get other young women "into a kind of pipeline for them to be groomed and sexually" abused. The husband of one of these women sued the leader and the woman and their case was settled out of court. The worst part was the leader learned to be such a predator from the founder and president of the ministry before him. CA and CSA also spread throughout many of their trained leadership across the country and elsewhere. I experienced it myself.
@@JulieRoysReport ❤️ 🕊️ Amen. Thank you, Julie. I agree
@@brendaseals7739 thank you ♥️🙏
There's a beautiful biblical kind of protocol about a process of "vetting" people's repentance and heart-change before they're forgiven and restored after grave sin that harms others... before they're accepted back into trust. It's in the story of the biblical Joseph and how he deals with his brothers when they don't know who he is in his position of power over Egypt under Pharaoh. That is not at all a quick "forgive and forget" thing and quickly trusting them. It is a very long process of testing and proving themselves that took great wisdom, shrewdness and long-suffering on Joseph's part to walk out their "proving.". And I feel it when I read that story... the sense of confidence, finally, that these men have been humbled and accountable and willing to suffer and personally sacrifice in restitution for what they'd done. They are truly sorry and making amends and it becomes clear. But it takes time. It can be done. But it's definitely not the easy or short path. So many of us lack the character for that level of hard work and faithfulness. God help us. 🙏🙌💪🕊️🔥
What a great post. And the hard work was done by both Joseph and his brothers. I imagine that he had already forgiven them, but it was probably healing both to them and to Joseph to experience this gauntlet of testing.
Thank you for sharing this. I will definitely go back and read that record again. Like you point out, Joseph was walking with God during that time which is unlike what is happening now where the blind are restoring fallen leaders back into leadership (imo).
@@squeeks40 Amen ❤️🕊️
@@cult11 Amen ♥️🕊️
This victimization nonsense is nothing short of making excuses, rationalizing, & justifying immoral behaviour/choices.. We always have a choice. These are not children we’re dealing with. Also where was the accountability to the Lord; where was the relationship w/the Lord; why was there no surrendering of this situation to the Lord . . .? There is a point of ridiculousness, making excuses for adult so-called believers who supposedly have the Holy Spirit at their disposal - where is their accountability?
You don’t know what you don’t know. You honestly think there is no such thing as an abusive relationship ? You’re just out of your depth on this one. Lucky for you you haven’t learned about it by experience. 😢
You do not know the whole story.
You are correct Verna, that there is an accounting. Jesus made it clear that what you sew you reap. The line between victim and consensual becomes at times blurred and at times clear depending on many factors. I would recommend you research more about predatory behavior and their grooming tactics. It doesn't matter if it's clergy or on line sexual predators, or sports coaches. There's patterns in these perps. As there are in their victims. A susceptibility somewhere that predators can spot as clearly as a cat on the prowl. Are you aware that K. P. admitted as far back as 1999 that he had numerous adulterous affairs and that he "manipulated" them. That's predation and grooming. A master. WHY he was allowed to continue in ministry is beyond me. This further unveils huge problems with the church abysmal handling adult clergy sexual abuse.
Bickle was telling each of these women, in a “prophetic voice”, that God showed him his wife was going to die and then he would be married to this young victim. He told it to a 14 y/o, a 15y/o and a 19 y/o. This was in a ministry where Bickle’s “prophetic gift” was highly honored.
and that right there is a textbook example of spiritual abuse resulting in religious trauma.
This is very good. Broken people often translate into broken systems. We need to pay way more attention in church to systems and structures.
She was an adult!! She is not a victim. She knew better! But she went along with it anyway knowing full well it was wrong!!
Even children sometimes know it’s wrong but they don’t feel empowered to go against the abuser. Misty was sinning but she was also vulnerable to abuse because her parents were controlling, according to stories I hear. It was sin and abuse at the same time.
@@kellydecamp3656 Yes, it can be both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Her story sounds sad, and anyone's heart should go out to her. But at the judgment, she'll be responsible for her actions, as we all will be.
Thank you for this video. It was helpful!
Some of the clergy/leader abuse with the manipulation and control doesn't always lead to getting some type of sexual gratification...often its taking time, money, resources, favor and adoration etc. from its subject where they become like a slave. They use all the same kind of tactics and often the victim is under heavy condemnation afraid to say no and set boundaries for fear of the consequences.
Yes, this ^^
This is true. A sociopathic narcissist got ahold of my husband--not in a sexual way, but using him to further his career in ways that he himself couldn't, and did much damage to my husband's relationships and career. This man was allowed to teach Bible classes at our church without proper vetting (he had been guilty over and over of clergy SA in a previous place). Churches need to vet, vet, VET.
This was incredibly helpful. I was extremely grieved to read about Misty Edward’s tragic, heartbreaking journey. I had felt that this particular report went too far and should not have been published. I felt that Misty, indeed, was a victim.
Nevertheless, to hear of the journalistic nuances, moral dilemmas, and tensions of conscience that went into the decision of how and what to publish was at least helpful.
?? She is ran into predatory men, but she's still an active participant.
The report isn't "too far". It's all factual and pertinent to her defense for MB. You need her story to come out to understand what's going on at IHOPKC.
Thank you for airing this. Excellent.
We're all victims of their duplicity
Thank you Julie and David. This was a fantastic interview that gives us opportunity to think about these serious matters and I am very grateful to you both.
Wonderful closing remarks as well. So helpful to the church body as a whole. I commend you both. This must have been challenging.
Was she a victim? Maybe. But i cant decide if she was more a victim of sexual abuse or a victim of her fleshly desires (to put it biblically). Its a tale as old as time. Two people working together developed attraction toward each other. Now you can make the argument that he was persuant in a predatory manner and she'd succumbed to his methods or whatever, which is probably the case, but nothing was done to her against her will, there was no power dynamic, as far as we know they were on equal footing in terms of leadership hierarchy.
Is he a disgusting pig who shouldn't have been allowed within a zipcode to any church property, let alone position? Absolutely, but misty is by no means blameless.
If we're assigning blame; the guy #1, the chuch leadership #2, Misty Edwards #3.
She was seduced. *Kevins words
This is VERY common in marriage, especially “Christian” marriages. The church needs to wake up, change, and help the victims. Praying for an awakening!!!
This is my gut speaking...
I think possibly Mike B. abused her as well, but she refused being named because she was trying to cover up this adulterous affair that went on for years with this musician. She didn't want anyone to find out about this situation so she said no, Mike never abused her. Thinking, if they start investigating, they could find out about her affair with the other man also.
That's my hunch. Now we she come out & tell about Mike after, I hope she can get it off her chest now.
Great interview. Thank you.
This was so powerful! Great conversation
The charismatic movement, by its very nature, involves emotional experiences and claims of supernatural authority, which leaves followers most vulnerable to abuse.
The is a recent Wake up and Win podcast called "Michael Miller of Remnant Radio IHOPKC, Spiritual Abuse, Matthew 18 and Honor Culture." It is a must see if you want to learn how leaders within the charismatic movement get away with so much abuse.
Don't forget that sexual immorality and clergy abuse is not just in the charismatic movement but in all denominations... the SBC, Catholic church, ect.
Great interview & biblical insights. Appreciate your channel. I agree that the separation of church and state creates opportunity for leaders to “get away” with abuse and remaining in pastorate (high) positions. 40 yrs ago I was inappropriately touched by an elderly pastor who oversaw the seniors at church. I was newly married & 20 years of age. I cared for his bedridden wife as Homecare nurse. I attended the same church as them. Both Homecare & the church handled it under a “hush hush” situation. I was very naive, shared with 1 elder & main pastor and was told “thanks for sharing, they would take care of it.” That’s it. Senior Pastor continued pastoring and I quit working with this client. I reported this to Homecare program. No one at the Homecare Program shared info that with me prior to taking on this client; that he had a unique gift of “laying on of hands”. Pun intended. The wife apologized to me for her husband. Handled so badly. I had to face this pastor every Sunday until they moved away years later. There ought to be strict laws/parameters for abuse within church, the pastorate or high positions in church. In recent years our church now takes such matters seriously.
Thank you!! That was excellent!!
Being an IHOPer I never felt that Mike Bickle had “the word of God”. There were sooo many people and non leaders having very accurate words, gifting and more. The reason he was so seen as pure, was his life style. He really did live out “many” of the things he preached from what people saw.
What I was completely unaware of, is that Mike was not being questioned. We asked many questions to leaders, I would have never assumed that his staff did not dare to question him.
I also agree, not one person should have all power. … just fyi.
Thank You for this.
Very informative.
Thank you!
So pathetic. Misty's music and testimony were big in my life for some years. My wife and I loved her and many at IHOP. But lets wake up to righteousness. Misty knew Gods word and at some point in time rejected it. Adultery, lying, drug and alcohol abuse...all sins that lead to destruction of the soul. I still hope Misty will repent and come out of the delusion she is in. The "grooming" aspect is secondary to the fact that people are breaking Gods commandments and walking contrary to his will. The perversion of holiness in this generation is staggering.
Maybe, if in IHOPKC there was true pastoring and the top leader taught sound doctrine and wasn't a wolf in sheep's clothing (iow, modeled a genuine spiritual walk in Christ), a lot of this would have been nipped in the bud.
❤
Was it adulterer Kevin on staff as clergy? Oooorrrrr was it Misty practicing celibacy on staff as clergy? 2 years to get something from him...... WOW
Thank you to you BOTH
Amazing voice that needs to be heard in the church!!!!!
Love this! Bless you guys.
Julie thank you so much for helping us to hear and know the truth!
I truly appreciate you stepping out and reporting the TRUTH! May our Heavenly Father bless and protect you spirit, soul and body.
yea...Steven Strang and a few others have had the same types of responses that accommodate the manipulator and gives them quick access to the people again. I'm like they are manipulating you into believing they are really sorry. ugh.
Sadly, IHOP had at least three staff that we know about who abused congregants in this way. One of the staff had a history of *** with a 14 year old girl at a previous church he worked at; IHOP put him in charge of youth at IHOP well aware of his history. Then this Prosch guy and also Mike. The rest of the staff engaged in cover up activities, as well. I suspect there is even more to this story and there are more of them; there is probably still stuff that hasn't come out yet which is why they are so neurotic about not hiring a independent investigator.
Thank you, Julie and Dr. Pooler, this is helpful, affirming, and empowering. Your work, words, and witness are appreciated by many. 🙏
Misty was victimized by Bickle. That was the secret and she was the victim but she isn’t seeing herself as one. Julie Roy’s had mercy and didn’t report it but that was going to be the original secret revealed but they chose not to reveal it…but I think everyone can see that’s what was happening between Mike and Misty …
Dang y’all. The victim blaming in this thread is eye-opening.
Lots of wisdom here.
She is a grown woman. She had an affair. This is not abuse. Please stop. She needs to take responsibility for her actions.
This is so sad. My heart goes out to all. Praying for healing.
When the "church" takes the command to TEST/DISCERN seriously, they will know the false from the true and not be decieved. 1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit but test the spirits whether they are of God. I.E. Know your scripture to test actions/words/songs/authority against the WORD. Sin elevates people, money, dreams/visions, prophecy above God and His WORD.
A victim?? How many decades of warnings regarding the heresy, the commercialization with "worship" music, the false prophecies, the greed, on and on that she aligned herself with.
The core assumption is wrong. There shouldn't be a power difference. We are all equals in the body of Christ. We need to stop trying to manage hierarchy in the body of Christ and realise its error & get rid of it.
Christ is the head of his body. In cult-like organizations or even religious systems though, leaders become the head and/or mediator between God and man.
thank you for all your work and reporting so ethically, and being a real source of truth, I remember when I read your article, it was harrowing and I was thinking "i wonder if Misty has been groomed" so thank you for bringing more complexity to the term "affair' because it's so much complex than that and it really sounded like she was coerced a lot of times...
It is easy to judge a victim - as a bad person, because of their bad behaviour.
How much of the behaviour we see, is because of the utter destruction that the abuse caused them.
Judging is so much easier than loving. We cannot love every one the way they need to be loved, but we can help not make things worse for them by a callous snap judgment made in a careless moment. It’s not too much to ask.
No Misty Edwards is not a victim. Give me a break. How does having a seven year affair qualify you as a victim? And who was she messing arounf with prior to this one.
Who who was messing with her?
AMEN thank you Julie for the work your doing God bless 🙏
I can’t wrap my head around how sooo many people think IHOP NAR is a movement of the Lord. D E C E P T I O N. Doesn’t the Bible say we shall know them by their fruits?
Always ask questions!!
Thank you for all you do Julie ❤️🙏🏽❤️
Theres not just adult clergy sexual abuse, its not always sexual. It can be financial abuse, abuse of your time, gifts, resources, talents, your youth years, your network connections, your reputation. All of these things were stolen from me by a senior pastor over 4 years.. adult clergy abuse hits many areas. Its true we need formal terminology to help victims identify these abuses. It took me 7 years to come to grips with the fact my pastor was a predator. Not a sexual one. But in every other way he could exploit me for his will and ministry - he did.
Nobody trusts a word this lady says anymore, she should do another profession
Thank u for your amazing podcasts.
Something similar happened in the church I was going to in the 80s and 90s. The church stood with the pastor (small p) and against the victim. The victim took on the church and denomination and sued them. She won and was deemed as the worst person on earth. I discerned before this came out there was something wrong with this pastor. The church body was told to basically shut up and not be gossiping. I wasn't interested in talking about it. I left the church as did many others. I was a single Mom and the lady who was abused was a single mom. I no longer felt safe with there. Eventually he left to another church where it happened again. I trust God and my discernment as my guide. If I see something I back away if there isn't a culture of healing and openness.
😢This is why we have the remnant. The ones that have seen these ones who are wolves or wolves accomplices and have walked the only lonely path of Jesus.
Big age difference is a factor when there is sexual abuse by a predator which he has admitted he is one. It was not a level playing field at all.
I spend years listening to Misty Edwards music, it blessed me in so many ways! It is easy to judge but few people can uderstand the battle people on ministry has to face to keep holiness.
A victim of wanting to preserve her reputation. .a victim of being in an environment where the shepherds cared more for their reputation than their sheep... Yet this season , misty will enter into true intimacy where her songs will be real on meeting her true Shepherd who cares
Wow. Watching this is spectacular, difficult in that their are some triggers for me, but excellent!
There seems to be some sort of campaign to make Misty Edwards just a victim. You are not doing her any favors by not holding her accountable. To follow your reasoning, everyone is then a victim because we've all been through things that victimize us, yet that does not give us a free pass. And we are accountable before a holy God.
They were not giving Misty a free pass. They each know from experience that Misty is in terrible bondage because of what was done to her and what she did to herself and others. This video made it clear that people come to term with their past in different ways, for different reasons and after different amounts of time have passed. Just pray that Misty with do this as well one day.
@@cult11she is still accountable
@@janicebooy1007 Yes, and I believe she will be able to truly repent when she begins to break free of all things IHOPKC. When I, and others, left or were kicked out of the cult we were in, it took time and support to first begin to heal from how messed up we were, then to realize how contrary to scripture many of its practices were, and then we did repent for having participated in any of them. It wasn't as linear as I just described it, but the key was coming out of the spiritual darkness we were in.
Amen
O Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. I want the reign of Your grace to completely capture my heart and continue to change my attitudes, my words, and my actions to reflect my deep appreciation for the grace You have given me. I recognize that I am saved by Your grace. I trust that Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection defeated the power of sin and death, purchasing my pardon and making me Your child. May I never presume on Your amazing grace, O LORD! In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.
Interesting show defiantly needs to be talked about more
So after listening to this what do y'all think should happen to Misty's ministry as a world wide Worship leader? Do we give her an out like come around Misty you were a victim. Just say it tell your story and you will keep your livlihood. Can placing the blame on victimhood replace personal responsibility and be dangerous because where there is no personal conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit to lead you to repentance then your heart gets hard towards sin. On the other hand like Kevin Prosch can confess repent and be restored back to ministry in as little as 6 months. Repeat! That is the problem with abusing the grace of God using the grace of God as a license to sin. No holiness. No fear of the Lord. You have to question when you see that repeated pattern were they ever Born Again.
I believe one of the major problem is us. We have lifted these worship leaders up as a god like a rock star that they get so big and influential in the Christian world that they are addicted to the money. There is no accountability. Alot of times these worship leaders are off on their own doing their own thing living in continual sin because there is no kind of leadership in their life to check on them and hold them accountable. Worship leaders has built there own platform that it becomes like a job well it is a very well payed job at that but its like they are there to do there job then when they go home they are living in all kinds of sin because no accountability structure in there life. When you are part of a big ministry like IHOPKC Misty was propped up as the money maker. So even if she got caught up in an abusive power structure in which she made her own choices then you protect the power structure because its your livlihood. You do not want to have to go back in the real world and work a regular job making $15an hr. I think alot of times stepping away from the big money making ministry platform and being humbled getting a regular job like the rest of us would do them alot of good.
We do need some system in place - but how?!?! And when will denominations start to do this ?!?!
Yes, our future leaders are people who survive this abuse.
Of course.
I've experienced a different kind of church abuse, but it is still abuse nonetheless. I grew up a PK, and have had to still live as a PK as an adult, for a variety of complicated reasons. My parents would be considered "celebrities" within our denomination, and I've had gossip and slander spread about me, which have ruined my life in many ways, and have caused me long-term PTSD. There's no one safe to go to. No one would believe my story.
I was able to leave a similar situation in my 20’s. I am truly sorry. You are correct - there will be no safe person to turn to in your family’s circle, no matter how hard some individuals may try to convince you they are safe they are not on your side. I pray you will be able to accumulate some kind of resources or support to escape, whether that’s friends outside the denomination, or a job, whatever the case may be. I understand that is easier said than done when you are in a controlling environment and your ability to perform age appropriate adult functions is restricted by people who have more power than you do, especially if you have health challenges. Please do not give up hope. If I can find my way out I truly believe you will someday.
@@amelian9677 I certainly hope you're right. However, you got out when you were in your 20's, and I'm in my 40's. Each year that passes I lose more hope.
The christian brothers around Misty should have been protecting her but she was exploited and blackmailed.
She is a victim. People who had power to defund her , a woman who joined IHOp in her late teens instead of college/ university and wouldn't know how to make it in the real world. This makes her very vulnerable to being played snd coerced. That doesn't minimise the sin of adultery. But i think the bigger offenders here are the men who should have protected a single women. They didnt and she fell into the arms of a man who coercered her.
Single women are vulnerable whatever age they are. Woman who has spent her life employed in the bubble of the church without worldy career credentials. Whoes identiy will be around the church family she has known for over two decades. And much is at stake if she us rejected by all of them....
Im not excusing adultery which is a wicked sin, but I do beleive this is more nuanced than two consesual adults. One is definatly more victom than the other who has openly admitted his tendency to coerce and use women. He was cruel in realsing thr audio recording of Mistys secret ( of SA?) in segments to her and hold them over her head. Absolutely cruel. That is coercion. She tried to do everything and threw away her own integrity to try and put a stop to it. ....
She is a victim. A sinner as well but definatly a victim. Jesus must be weeeping.
Misty cannot say she is a victim. If she did, to her mind she admits she’s been deceived. She would be admitting she has no wisdom, discernment, etc.
So….She lost herself along time ago. She actually might not know who she is in Christ because of how everything has a twist in it now.
It’s never too late to begin anew. She would have to have dedicated, focused believers to lead her back in truth.
And that person or persons are few and far between today.
I agree 💯 with him
There was only one thing that I found concerning about this otherwise excellent interview. As serious as this issue is, and as much as it needs address, the thought of "regulation" or "licensing" being part of the solution is chilling. As is so often the case with civil governments, state involvement in systemically policing Christian ministries would create a whole new set of serious problems and become a most slippery slope. While criminal charges certainly should be filed in these individual cases, as appropriate, a further expansion of the state's involvement in church oversight should not be considered, however.
I wonder what role narcissism plays in all this?
I imagine a whole lot. Since my ministry days in the 80s, I have come to learn that leadership egos can grow very big, and many narcissists go to many ends to protect the image they have created. I'd like to believe that the narcissistic leader is the exception.
Churches as a whole need reform. So much bad behavior is ignored and the overall culture of the church is to blame those who are struggling… and not take responsibility for any issues. That is the very definition of narcissism. This goes far beyond celebrity in the church. I came from a very abusive background, found Christ on my own. The cycle of shame at churches has been endless. Took me 30 years to find a church where I was finally accepted and embraced. Are there still issues? Yes. But not from leadership. It is more from a church culture that that has the habit of shaming those who are struggling.
The problem with this kind of discussion, is that it is detached. They study these sinners as if they were subjects that are somewhat beneath them; thus (falsely they think) they are capable of fair and righteous judgement. There is a peculiar lack of fear in this conversation - a peculiar lack of identification with the sinners. But of course there is nothing at all Biblical about this. In such clinical dissections, we lose several aspects of reality, for example: 1. that the victims are not guiltless; 2. that we onlookers, too ,are guilty or at least capable of these exact same levels of sins for which Christ died; 3. that our battle is not primarily against these "predators" nor they are a special class of sinner; 4. that these experts and reporters are not saviors, but sinners already living in or capable of the exact same kinds of sin.
Many women married to older men ….even 20 years. Conclusions made here are very speculative. Edwards travelled--apparently had freedom and a career and following of her own. She was in a leadership position at IHOPKC. If she cannot speak for herself-others should not take it upon themselves to speak in a speculative way for her. Unprofessional to go this far.
They said in the video that this was the case with Misty and Prosch but that didn't necessarily mean it's what made it abusive. Julie Roys was in contact with Misty Edwards on a number of occasions and shared her honest thoughts with Misty about believing she was a victim. I think this was because Julie knew about the first person Misty was with which TRR responsibly did not include in their article.
@@cult11 I understand. My point is Roys is not a psychologist. We have “Misty’s account.” That is what we have.
@@cult11 lol. TRR did express her opinion re the suspected abuse.
@@bordendonnaDavid Pooler is a professor, has a Ph.D and is a licensed clinical social worker in that video. He is also an expert on adult CSA. What is your problem? And no, we do not have "Misty's account" in its honest fullness.
@@bordendonna What is wrong with you? What is funny about any of this?
What can be asked in the interviewing process with a pastoral candidate?