A message to Dwelling Place, Alan Scott, Jeremy Riddle...What does Jesus care about?
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- čas přidán 18. 08. 2023
- This video is a continuation in talking about the Dwelling Place church. After hearing people share their stories of hurt and abuse under the leadership of Alan and Jeremy, I wanted to share some of my story and some perspectives in leadership in the church.
Music borrowed from Vineyard: Room at the Table
• ROOM AT THE TABLE [Off...
We didn't know each other, but my family and I were members since 1980. Stuck through it all until Alan sent an e-mail on a Friday night informing us he was taking us out of the Vineyard. We were in utter shock. It's still painful when I drive past the building. Our more discerning friends had left much earlier citing Alan's disparaging remarks about our past leadership and especially the benevolence ministry. Good for you for speaking out.
Thank you John, like i said before i left with a lot of pain because I saw what Alan was doing from the very beginning; he closed are home group of 27 people the we was hosting, only because i make a comment about how painful was to see the changes, and he closed the group with out any consideration about the rest of the people.
I feel so sad for Jeremy because God justice is coming, and they not getting away from all the divisions pain that they cost 😢
He’s such a narcissistic jerk lol what a crock typical now it all makes sense pathetic
The closing of the home groups was one of the main triggers that led to our family leaving. It was just so hard to connect after that. I felt cut off from our church family.
I don’t understand, why not quit Alan and the home group going, where ever 2 or three gather ….
..he must have been closing down all the groups to help him have more power to bring in the take over by bethel... as many people on the board didnt know what was happening, thats why pete greig stepped down from the board
Thank you for your humble and thoughtful approach to all of this. I am so sad to say that this isn’t just happening at The Dwelling Place. It’s systemic
One of the things that I further found difficult, in listening to the longer recordings of Alan, was how many people in the room were laughing along with his insults about people. Sadly it shows there is a culture that is a culture I don’t know how to politely describe.
Bless you buddy, I pastor a Vineyard Church in Columbus... I was heartbroken to see Lance leave as pastor and suspicious of a Celebrity Pastor replacing him. What i've always loved by about my experience of the Vineyard was the feeling that we are the "island of misfit toys" dearly loved by God, the simplicity, authenticity, a little of the punk rock anybody can do this ethos... My experienced in the past at Anaheim were always real, not glossy, I'm so sad to see the enemy warp it all.
BTW-I love the orthodox imagery on your video... I love the Church mothers and fathers, St. Simeon the New Theologian especially... he was the charismatic, social justice, artist/lyricist, scholar extraordinaire.
Hi Jeff. Yeah, I liked that Vineyard culture of not being too professional and everyone getting to play.
I’ll need to look up St Simeon.
@@openbookwithjohn1865 yes ironically john wimber threw out the kansas city prophets who refused to let everyone get to play as they were the super apostles and prophets of their dominion theology...
ironically now Bethel have taken it over espousing the same dominion theology /new apostolic reformation...
from a charismatic in the UK who is currently going through some stuff at Soul survivor, Watford. the Scotts were sitting on the platform of our naturally supernatural conference in 2019...
However this has been handled really well i think...
Thank you for being honest and forward about this situation without speaking ill of these leaders. Well done.
I'm sorry to hear this. Church splits are awful. I've been through 2 with Vineyard churches over the decades, and they always separate friends. Sad.
I don't know the details because I've never met Alan. I've seen Jeremy lead worship years ago. He is great at it.
I did attend Anaheim Vineyard years ago and was in the Vineyard movement for many years. There seems to be something systemic in Vineyard with leaders making autocratic decisions that aren't always sound.
And in the church splits I saw, those who left were put down. However in both cases, years later, it seems that people were eventually reconciled. I pray this happens between those who left and those who stayed. It's all for Jesus.
Not sure that what Jesus spoke about little children is the applicable verse in this case. But I understand how you are taking an application of it. Perhaps some other Scriptures might better apply if the situation needs changes.
Thank you for your honesty and your caring and desire to see reconciliation.
..they have been taken over by Bethel though that has different theology with their NAR dominion theology beliefs, and their new age book The PHysics of Heaven - its a different gospel....
So i would say this ia a bit different to most church splits..
Good for you for speaking out. This is not church. This is not the kingdom of God that Jesus revealed. This is power and influence and greed veiled as a “movement”. They want more numbers, not to be conduits of Gods grace. Shame. I pray the spirit convicts them and Gods kindness leads them to repentance.
John keep posting your thoughts really do matter, and you could be a real blessing to the body of christ.
Keep speaking out brother, these people in the comments trying to monitor your speech are part of the problem.
Well said sir!
Great video. These lukewarms put their crying face on in church but what are they like behind closed doors and outside of the church? It’s all a big show in the churches now a days. We are called to be HOLY and to be more like Christ each and everyday. Worldly churches that are friends with the world and an enemy to God!
John why don't you come over to the vineyard in Fullerton it's kind of like the old Vineyard I think you would like it there.
Thank you for the invitation
John, that was powerful.
I am proud that Jesus gave you the boldness to come forward. I have suffered the faults of men at church. I pray healing for all.
Did you make anyone suffer because of your faults? Who has not been hurt? It is God's allowance so we may forgive and be like Jesus who suffered but did no wrong, not even opening his mouth.
I am a house of prayer.
Alan and Jeremy are soft men. Real men stand up and fight for what is right. This guy making the video is a real man, standing up for himself and people that were hurt. Alan and Jeremy need to join a gym, start lifting or training mma. They both need a good portion of jordan Peterson
Thanks. I’m far from perfect. I haven’t known Alan for long, but Jeremy I’ve known for years. There’s a lot of us that knew him and his family, and love them dearly. I hope that somehow he can be reached in all of this.
@@openbookwithjohn1865 Hi John - the thing is if Jeremy went to Bethels bible school they actually teach their book The Physics of heaven - it is completely new age and out there... basically it teaches to get more power now and doesnt focus on love or holiness...
it all comes out of dominion theology, now and now of the kingdom before Jesus returns..
Here is an ex bethel student going into what they get taught there
czcams.com/video/Y3jgkiAMreQ/video.htmlsi=edfN2obapOUSyG7q
Long message, but he is right, without love we have nothing
Did you say Vineyard USA was radio silence or dwelling place was?
It is important to see that forgiveness and reconciliation are two different things. We must forgive, but reconciliation depends on both parties. You might be ready to reconcile but the other is not. Will you forgive and go on? For reconciliation it may take years for the other side to be ready to reconcile, or they may never. But what do you do? Continue to grieve, live in regret judging and re-judging, or bless them, and move on with Jesus to the new green pasture He has for you, your head anointed with oil for a new ministry, fruitfulness, winning souls, being a blessing? Get out of the past. Stop focusing on it and look upon Jesus and His sufferings, then you will see your hurts as small and let them go.
..people need to move on but also perpetrators need to be called out to warn others so they dont get hurt...
one of the churches in revelation is commended by Jesus for calling out false apostles...
Bethel is full of apostles with more annointing than the original 12... LOL !! feeding into their dominion theology and their new age book the physics of heaven...
..taking the church into the occult...
Excellent John.
Dude, keep making videos!
Vineyard has serious problems. In the uk although there are some good churches led by great people there are others with massive theology problems, ones that openly affirm lgbtq and when issues are pointed out nothing is done. The brand seems more important than the truth. Some of the accusations around Alan are not uncommon amongst vineyard pastors: controlling, negative about those who speak out and arrogant. Vineyard is not what it used to be, breaks my heart.
The comments above which speak caution and judgement to John and urge him to move on and stop talking about it, might present themselves as Biblical, but they are not necessarily pure and correct.
Soul work and soul talk often needs to go deeper than we prefer, but it's not to be simply avoided for our comfort.
I'm suggesting that those who write them, ask why they wish to minimise and judge John's grace-filled way and well-explained purpose in making the video.
Are we inclined to wish away issues when they make us uncomfortable?
Do we hide from honest, hard conversations for appearance-sake?
Do we enjoy judging others to be unwise when they put out a viewpoint that shakes our position?
Do we feel safer when we can sweep awkward stuff under the table?
Jesus didnt advocate for that.
Can we listen openly to something we don't WANT to hear?
Did we read the other comments here with open interest in equal views or with pre-conceived prejudice?
The Truth sets us free, apparently...
No fear, remember?
I have no personal connection to anyone involved. I'm just watching from afar and wondering about the Good Shepherd and his flock in Anaheim...
Let's watch out that our conditionning doesnt stop us from seeing where the Jesus we know and love stands on all of this...
Spiritual abuse should not be kept quiet. It should be exposed.
@@FransceneJK98 That’s exactly what I said… oops maybe I was too wordy about it…
The churches one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord. It is not a 'club' based around a pastor or pastors. If you are simply going to church in order to worship the pastor and believe everything that the pastor tells you, then you have forgotten the reason why you actually worship. You do not go to worship in order to praise the worship leaders or the band. Our lives are supposed to be a sacrifice of worship in reverence and humility. You cannot worship if your heart is not humble. The Lord wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth. The truth will set you free. The Lord Jesus Christ always cared for the poor and outcasts. The Lord Jesus was asked by the rich man what he must do. He had followed all the 'rules' yet he was told to 'sell everything' and 'follow me'. If your brother refuses to listen to you and with witnesses present then you are dealing with an individual who is not filled with the spirit but with a spirit of envy and jealousy. By their works you will know them. Words mean absolutely nothing unless there are works that confirm these words. Jesus also warned about the pharisees and who loved to stand on street corners and be seen by others as they 'prayed' in public. There are two 'spirits' at work. Light does not have fellowship with darkness. You cannot buy the Holy Spirit. Only those who are convicted of their sinful nature and repent of their wrong doing and have humility and like the tax collector say 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner'. The Lord Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. If we say that we have no sin, then the truth is not in us. God cannot save an individual who doesn't recognise that they are a sinner and in need of the Lord Jesus Christ every single day of their lives. Alan Scott or anyone else has absolutely no authority whatsoever to stand up and dismiss anyone. All authority in heaven and on earth is given to the Lord Jesus Christ. That's were all authority comes from. It's idolatry to give authority to an individual and you are in fact worshipping a false idol if you do and have broken the first commandment. You shall have no other God's before me. In acts we have the case of land being sold and some of the money being withheld. The both individual then told the same false story. They had in fact lied to the apostles and both were struck down dead. It is a truly awesome responsibility to be a shepherd because there is a far greater level of accountability if you lead someone astray. Young people are apparently totally unaware of the level of accountability and they will have to give accout of their actions as we all will have to do on the day of judgment. We are told that few should become teachers and if you start from a position of having apparently absolutely no humility then you have maybe built your life on a false foundation. Anything built on a false or weak foundation will ultimately collapse for that reason. May we all have the sure and true foundation of the Lord Jesus Christ and keep our eyes totally fixed on him and nothing or nobody else.
What I have learned and still learning is, there will always ie occasions of receiving an offense but how we steward our hearts is the real test.. If we allow the offense to grow then everything becomes tainted and we can never see any nobility in what is being said or done. It’s a wonderful thing to truly forgive and then we will be able to love with a pure heart, that’s true freedom. There is absolutely no justification in making this a public issue
Why shouldn't he make a public issue out of this?
How do you know he has unforgiveness? He doesn’t sound bitter to me.
Your comment sounds calloused.
Hi. Normally I would agree with you. I left the then Vineyard Anaheim church after 19 years. I was hurt from what I had seen it become. I spoke privately with people in leadership about the issues I was having and I was told the issues were my own fault and misunderstanding.
3 years went by and I saw those issues were still occurring and at a grander level. When the public message by them was a mix of slander towards the past 20 years, it was then no longer a private matter.
We are stewards of ourselves and what God has given us, ultimately.
I’m sure there are some good things going on at Dwelling Place. No doubt. There are people getting ministered to. But when you meet people who are being hurt and mistreated, it taints the whole picture. Sometimes (most of the time) it’s loving to at least listen to those who are hurting.
I recently met one of the board members and I was told how important it is to just look at the positive things. That message is an avenue to be blind to abuse. There comes a time when honesty must prevail and not sweep corruption under the rug.
Being honest doesn’t always equate a lack of love or forgiveness. To forgive doesn’t mean accepting the fault or ignoring it. Forgiveness implies an acknowledgment of the fault. My aim is not to destroy anyone in leadership at Dwelling Place. My aim is to come together and have healing. Some call me naive for thinking that’s possible and that’s ok.
This post makes no sense. This guy has no unforgiveness in his words, he cares about people. Alan and Jeremy have never apologized to any of the people they hurt.
because it shames the church before the world, can weaken new believers and does not let God decide how HE in His sovereign way and perfect time will do the correcting and judging. Don't you remember Paul's warning against believers fighting in court before unbelievers? So this video is a display before anyone and everyone and may even keep some people from going to a church to be saved. Paul rejoiced in all who preached Christ, even those with mixed motives. Just want to bring some balance to your thinking @@aaronchambers9888. Much more could be said.
Ephesians 5:11 says to have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness but to EXPOSE them.
We’ll see what the judge says Friday….:)
Interesting! I haven’t been keeping up with that side of the issue.
Just another cult I’m just glad I never joined that cult lol 🤣 reminds me of when Naomi from 90210 joins that spiritual cult
..absolutely right, they have been taken over by bethel in an underhand way.. bethel and its book the physics of heaven & dominion theology etc...
How can you judge the worship of others, whether their tears, sweating, etc. is proper and accepted of God or not? That is what Michal did with David. She became sterile. I am concerned about anyone who sets themselves up as judge, when only God can see the heart. Of course everything in the church will never be perfect. We are sinful people all trying to do better and failing many times, in desperate need of the cross and grace until the very last day until we meet Jesus.
I’m not sure what you’re meaning by judgement of worship. When I see people getting hurt and being disregarded, I don’t know how to defend that as proper worship. I’m not lumping everyone together, but asking leadership to acknowledge that there are hurt people. If you want to judge me, feel free. But I’m not backing down because Michal was offended by David.
I don't sense judgement of individual hearts but the overall sense of the Spirit behind what they are calling a "movement" its totally appropriate to inspect the fruit of what they are doing beyond the physicality which is why he's highlighting the fallout he's seeing of people who should be shepherded, not excluded if you don't "worship" like "we" do. What is true worship anyway? If you consider its first mention in scripture is Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac. No music, no smoke machines or skinny jeans and waving of arms, just sacrificing what he loved most. I hope dwelling place gets to that place but unfortunately how something is birthed has alot to say about how it walks and the way the Scott's came and stole the flagship church of another movement , not a good start id say
He’s not judging how people worship. It’s the fact that these church leaders are pushing this physicality, this show, this notion that one must be emotional and keep their arms up to be in deep worship or be genuine. The leaders judge the congregation for not showing enough physicality or emotion. John is just pointing that out.
The church needs visionaries who lead movements. There are many gifts and callings, all so different. Under the visionaries there need to be many with a shepherd heart who love and "pastor' people not with that title but from the heart. Were you called to be one of them and give more time and prayer and love so those leaders could work on the big picture/vision leading many? Just asking you to search your heart?
..well yes this visionary has been taken over by Bethel church in an underhand way with its dominion theology and its new age book The Physics of Heaven.......
Ever since dominion theology (latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation the new apostolic reformation) came in through william branham in the 1950's then the kansas city prophets, they have sought power that goes beyond scripture through things like grave soaking, praying to angels...
The emphasis and focus is always on more power not more love & holiness..... what you are seeing here is the end result of this...
I thought dominion theology had gone away until 2019 when i attended a national day of prayer in the UK in 2019 run by clifford hill & david hathaway...
In the 1990s Clifford hill refused to do the forward to the kansas city prophets (dominion theology) book, some said it thundered as he discerned an evil spirit operating among them...
In 2019 he called out the NAR attenedees who had been invited against his will... here is a summary of what they believe...
prophecytoday.uk/comment/church-issues/item/1351-the-new-apostolic-reformation-an-overview.html
What these good people are suffering is from a different sprit other than the Holy Spirit... there is no excuse to the extent we dont walk in love we walk in death...
What is the primary evidence that a person really knows God? - its not how much power they walk in...
1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
“He who does not love does not know God.”
Brother, you've made your point and now let the Holy Spirit lead you into healing, a new church home and a deeper understanding. It grieves me to hear the pain and disappointment in your message. Could it be ,though, that God needed to move you and the others out of the Vineyard movement, out of the Dwelling Place movement, to something new? Often times, it can only come by a force that we rarely understand what is happening to us until we are far removed.
I doubt very much you will find yourself invited to that table you speak of with JR and AS, so ,if not , will you truly recover? Let God be God in this situation. If there truly has been an act of unrighteousness in this situation, God will deal with it. But don't kid yourself in believing that you are being Righteous in this very public addressing ( I've watched both of your videos). I am a stranger to this, only partaking in DP's sermons via You Tube and I have followed JR'S worship for many years, yet I know the 'sins' of DP? I thought love covers a multitude of sins? I'm not asking for a "cover-up" but I also don't believe a platform of this magnitude needed to be created. I'm not being facetious when I suggest just forming a group of fellow ex congregates to grieve together, pray together, let go together and heal together.
Hi Kristen. I’m not sure where to begin or end on your comment. I appreciate you taking the time to at least watch. The table I speak of isn’t the table of Alan, Jeremy, or mine. The table is the table of Jesus. Without Him we’re just another social club or private interest group.
We can see in Scripture that the earliest Apostles would gather to work out differences. Through church history we see many coming together for councils and splits. Some of the splits were healthy while many have been ugly. I am not an Apostle and don’t pretend I’m the authority on everything. But when I see fellow flock members being taken advantage of and abused, I can’t not speak up. Again, it’s not my wish that this be an ugly issue. I don’t have the illusion I can fix anything. But I pray that somehow there would be actual peace between the parties. If I have spoken wrongly about the whole situation, I pray for correction. But if the truth is considered ugly, what then are we supposed to say about the situation?
Kristen, as part of the community that lost our church because of the actions of Jeremy and Alan, we are moving forward, but we also feel it's important to call out what they're doing. You, like many others, see a shiny facade presented by the sermons on CZcams and Jeremy's worship. Many think that's all there is and that we should just let them get away with what they've done. The problem is that there is an abusive culture in the church that will continue if it is not dealt with. We "ex-congregates" are indeed grieving, praying, and healing together, but we will not just "let go" and continue to let this abuse fester in the church.
Leave it with God@@deannajasper2554. Forgive, let go, stop discussing it. Otherwise you put yourself in spiritual danger. Move on. Don't dwell with the bitter or backbiters. Change is God's fresh call in your life. Joseph moved on from what his brother's did, kept an excellent spirit in prison and taught us to forgive in Gen. 50:15-20. God is the Judge he taught us. We don't have to be. We are relieved of that burden when we forgive. God doesn't justify their sin, "you meant it for evil" Joseph said. He didn't deserve the ill treatment but look how God exalted him through the humbling it brought in him. Please move on for your good and the others who want to meet and re-hash all that happened, supporting each other in fruitless grieving over the past and what has been lost. "Here we have no continuous dwelling place, but we seek a City that is to come". God bless you.
John you keep speaking the truth in love like you do. Don’t let these people convince you that you are wrong to speak out. This abuse in these churches is far more systemic than people even know! Jesus is coming back for a SPOTLESS BRIDE! You might just be a tool in God’s hand to help bring accountability and hopefully repentance and healing!
@@TheReluctantProphet1964 not trying to compare myself or situation, but I was reminded today of the Letter to Birmingham, by Dr. King. More people should read it.
Your exact words: "That off feeling was there. It was always like hands up, sweating and crying, this huge physicality." You set yourself up to judge, watching others worship, pray, etc. many times. Your observing others, eyes wide open, watching to see what they are doing and if they are sincere, along with the pride to think you can judge and discern their motive is a major weakness. I hate to be so direct about this because you have good potential. If you don't repent though it will turn to religiousness and self righteousness. You will become another religious person who thinks they are right and wiser than many. You will go back to the religion of the Orthodox and other religious groups that are without salvation, back under the law, dried up spiritually and disappointed. This path leads to the sense of the Presence of the Holy Spirit in your life being lost. Don't let this happen because of the failures you have seen in others. You cannot even know your own heart, let alone others when they worship, pray. Look at Jesus alone. If you really saw your own sins you would shut your mouth about the sins of others. You would start concentrating on your own compromises and uncleanness which you know is there and can't overcome because of the grace you are not receiving because of pride and thinking you know more than you do, that is deep in your heart. Ezek. 36:31-32; Ezek. 16:63. God bless you with all the best as you deeply self-examine yourself.
Dude, Catholic church doesn't live by bible. Full of heresy. Full of deception.
You all should join The Black Hearts Club Dominic Swayne YungBlud you won’t truth listen to him and join his church haha only man that’s honest in this world and that’s the problem we got these fake moro*s in leadership people are gonna see right through that. Guy is awesome too.
His pictures are from the Orthodox Church.
Hi John, You are now gossiping. Why are you repeating these things? I encourage you to remove both of these videos. It does nothing to glorify God or help the church. Offense only leads to sin. God bless you to forgive and move forward. God has amazing plans for your life.
Speech patrol ala Scott.
@@clareb2606 😂
I'll be sharing these far and wide, victims and survivors in Scotland have suffered Alan and his previous church in Glasgow - those stories have still to come out so you won't be policing anyone's speech pet.. Capiche?
Exactly right.
..when will you guys repent... (aimed at the main top comment) you are trying the same tactics as ihop's Mike Bickle (cut from the same NAR cloth).. trying to control the narrative instead of coming clean and repenting...
YOu will have to stand before God... will you be in Jesus kingdom.. his kingdom is the upside down kingdom ruled by love which is outlined in the sermon on the mount..
and those who healed in his name but on that day he said he didnt know them comes at the end of the sermon on the mount (Matt end ch7) because its those who are born again and walking according to the sermon on the mount who will be saved...
..not those trying to bring Gods dominion in now in their own strength BEFORE Jesus returns... not those trying to get extra william branham power through The PHysics of Heaven and grave soaking..
Bro, you need to man up.. If that church isn’t perfect for you, go find one that is .. Clearly that place isn’t for you..
Man up? Who says that
😂