Ep 28: The Anaheim Vineyard: Leadership Ethics, Honor Culture, & Spiritual Abuse
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- čas přidán 6. 11. 2022
- On episode 28, Luke Geraty and Wesley McLachlan discuss the Anaheim Vineyard and how it disassociated from the Vineyard, becoming Dwelling Place Anaheim. We cover the unethical process, how honor culture influenced the situation (and manipulated people), and why Luke's stood strong on his statement that this is spiritually abusive.
Also, be sure to check out Remnant Radio's video "Responding To The Culture Of Honor" • Responding To The Cult...
You can read a number of articles on the situation below...
❇️ Recommended Reading ❇️
"Carol Wimber’s Letter to VA’s Board"
vineyardanaheim.wordpress.com...
"Vineyard USA Statement on Anaheim Vineyard"
vineyardusa.org/update-from-v...
"Leading Church Exits Vineyard"
www.christianitytoday.com/new...
"Why Anaheim’s decision to leave the Vineyard is a betrayal of trust"
www.premierchristianity.com/o...
"The Vineyard was built on friendship and shared values. Then a leading pastor split"
religionnews.com/2022/04/21/t...
"Vineyard Anaheim renamed the Dwelling Place after split: 'Not a departure from what has gone before'"
www.christianpost.com/news/vi...
"‘Extreme Betrayal’: Flagship Vineyard Church Announces Split from Vineyard USA"
julieroys.com/extreme-betraya...
"VINEYARD ANAHEIM STATEMENT"
www.dirtyglory.org/blog/2022/4...
"Bob Fulton’s Letter to VA’s Board"
vineyardanaheim.wordpress.com...
"Penny Fulton’s Letter to VA’s Board"
vineyardanaheim.wordpress.com...
"The Theological One About the Anaheim Vineyard"
www.thomascreedy.co.uk/the-th...
"Be Like Lance"
lukegeraty.com/2022/03/21/be-...
"On Associations, Networks, & Denominations…"
lukegeraty.com/2022/03/23/on-...
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Luke, thank you for pointing out the theological elephants in the vineyard room. It's about time we, at the larger vineyard movement, should have a discussion about our theology. The problem we face is that with young people today and the coming generations going forward, there is this assumption that bethel and vineyard are twins with minor differences. There's a lot more that separates us than that which unites. One thing in particular, is the authority of the leader. John Wimber parted ways with the Kansas city prophets back in the 80s over that very issue. He saw the abuse of authority in some of those prophets who went on unchecked in their 'apostolic' roles. We need wise teachers who can speak boldly on these theological issues.
No no no!!! Bob Jones had women remove their clothing so he could fondle their bare breasts claiming it was the only way he could get the holy spirit in them and BECAUSE it was known...and that only was the reason for the outward break
Bethel, The New Apostolic Reformation and Vineyard are so different. vineyard are not into dominion theology and neither have they got into the new age practices of Bethel as outlined in their book, The Physics of Heaven which bob Jones (former kansas city prophet) has a chapter, 'Vibrating in harmony with God' - it is completely out there along with the rest of the book...
It is so ironic that the same theology that John Wimber threw out in the kansas city prophets has come back in the form of Bethel and the New Apostolic Reformation...
The most heartbreaking moment for me was reading Carol Wimber-Wong's response. That was the moment I wept for the Anaheim Vineyard and for our movement in general. I do pray for the Scott's for sure, but I appreciate your willingness to call it what it is and speak the hard facts about the situation. Great podcast - thank you Luke and Wesley.
Carol always was a Roman Catholic. She divorced John and refused to come back until he married her as a ROMAN CATHOLIC..John and brother in law Bob Fulton were members of Yorba Linda Blue Lodge ( freemasons) so HOW can immoral people living in willful sin minister the miraculous? Because it's from Satan
Thank you for said the thrust; I been at the Anaheim Vineyard for more than 30 years and is very painful what he did, but the damage that he did to all the people that was in staff went they can is horrible, I wish someone make investigation and espouse all the abuse, he close most of are homes grupos and dismantled everything’s the is Vineyard to do he’s on Kingdom’s, but i know I will see God’s JUSTICE.
I'm sorry this has been so tough for you :( It's a lot of bad stuff...
Glad you guys are speaking into this space!
Thanks so much for this. My wife and I went to MC-511 one week conference in 1985, in the old Anaheim warehouse. It was life changing. This whole ordeal has been quite troubling. Thanks again
Thanks for the conversation fellas. You're spot on with the "honor culture" misnomer. There's absolutely nothing honoring about the process they took to disassociate the mother church from her family. I find it interesting that still consider John and Carol their founding leaders. Look at the language they use on the website below...(the bold is their doing). It reminds me of the words in red "you honor me with your lips, but your heart is far from me." And speaking of character, I imagine some day we'll be listening to a podcast titled The Rise and Fall of Dwelling Place Anaheim. Anyway, looking forward to more conversation. (Oh, by the way, I'm speaking in regards to myself, Dan Motz, and not Mountain Coast Vineyard).
"We don’t enter our destiny unless we honor our history. All of it. Own the awkward and the awesome. Own the heroes and the heartache, the wonderful times and the painful moments. Our story isn’t perfect but it is beautiful.
Our church began on Mother’s Day 1977 when sixty burned-out believers gathered for the first time on a Sunday morning in a rented building in Yorba Linda. They weren’t looking to start a movement; they were looking to meet Jesus… and meet Him they did! Soon, others came to meet Him. As they opened their hearts, God opened the heavens. The gospel was preached, the lost were found, the sick were healed, the poor were clothed and fed, and the presence and power of God was tangible.
Under the leadership of our founders, John and Carol Wimber, the church grew rapidly and moved to the city of Anaheim. Soon churches from around the globe came to visit. Conferences were started, churches were planted, and a movement was born. Yet none of it came out of a desire for influence, just people pursuing His presence - just a family trying to keep in step with the Spirit.
Today we but we don’t live in it. We want to move beyond our history into our destiny. We want our own story of God moving in our generation and in the nations. Our own story of kingdom advance through our hearts and hands. Our own story of His story among us."
Yeah this bothered me too.
My hope is that Jeremy Riddle and his wife take over the church or leave it that’s the only reason I’m going back to that church because of the music otherwise I get a bad feeling about Alan Scott always have even before this whole controversy
With regard to the "Culture of Honor," that was most likely imported from Bethel. I don't know what connection the Scotts had with Bethel but the Riddles were there for years. Having survived one year at Bethel Church, I can honestly say that it was the most toxic, abusive mindset imaginable. Just hearing the phrase creeps me out. Thank God my years at Anaheim with John gave me the necessary foundation to recognize the toxicity and get out before it swallowed me up.
..absolutely imported from Bethel.. My understanding that the people on the anaheim board were from Bethel that conspired with Alan Scott to take over the church...
Half of Bill Johnsons church left in the early 1990s when he got completely off on William Branhams teachings. The AOG chucked him out as well...
Today you can see their dominion theology (the now and now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns, latter rain, NAR) and their embracing the new age through their book The Physics of Heaven and their resulting grave soaking...
GREAT job friends. 'chickens coming home to roost'. absolutely true. numerous voices that have raised questions in the past were ignored or shushed into silence, because 'it was working'. I was personally told by a national leader that my concerns about Alan's teaching (and others like it) were 'nitpicking' about theological issues that 'nobody cares about'.
..wow !!
I grew up in the vineyard from mid 80s to 2020 attended off and on 3 local anaheim vineyards: the mother church, vineyard of the canyon, and later stadium vine. I am angry and perplexed of the situation; I know God Elohim Most High will have and does have the last word. He sees and knows all that's going on; and knows what's inside men's hearts. I am "un-churched" at the moment and proud to not be a part of any 501c3 entity! Shalom from southern California.
The theology of the Dwelling Place that you describe sounds a lot like Bethel. I'm sure you know but Banning Liebcher, the senior pastor if Jesus Culture, is part of the board (which doesn't make sense), along with the Riddles, who were part of Bethel. I completely agree, they could have planted as either one of those but chose to basically steal the flagship vineyard.
I also agree that it's a bit of chickens coming home to roost. I think it's a wake up call to the movement and a lack of discernment from the leaders (who were, at the time of the decision, meeting with them to get them EVEN MORE involved!)
Definitely a wake up call. As a movement, our system / structure has been designed for something like this to happen. Which is a problem.
Thanks guys. Sadly, the audio from Wes was bad. I missed some key things he said. I watched the whole thing happen from afar (northern Ontario) on CZcams and I was outraged. Long time Vineyard guy and deeply love the Vineyard movement. I could be wrong but I think this is a takeover by Bethel. I think they wanted a presence in LA and they saw an opportunity to do it for free. It was a business decision. Bethel is a business first and a church second, like Hillsong. I have seen the horrific fruit produced by Hillsong and the bad fruit produced by Bethel so I have learned to keep a distance from both. You saw the bad fruit produced by Alan. Will they announce in the future that they are joining Bethel? Or will they keep it permanently quiet that they are connected. We shall see. I first wondered about Jeremy Riddle coming from Bethel. I thought that was a bad sign. So now they had 2 superstar worship leaders, Jeremy and Kathryn. Hey, that is not like the Vineyard. But I trusted Alan and Kathryn. They are Vineyard pastors. Then they brought in Matt Redman. What is going on? Again, not like a vineyard church. Then I saw Heidi Baker (Bethel) brought in as a guest speaker. Do these people have no discernment at all? Then the killer, guest speaker Bill Johnson (Bethel) !!!! I was mystified. Does the Vineyard have no idea about the false teachings and spirits in Bethel? Then it all came together when I heard they announced they were leaving the vineyard…. The superstar worship leaders and the visits from Bethel people. I heard there was someone placed on the board connected to Bethel or Jesus Culture. Whether it was Bethel or just Alan on his own there was definitely a plan. I agree with you. I was delighted to hear you say you fish. I just retired up here and am learning to fish.
...gosh, the Fultons and the Scotts both were on stage at 'Naturally Supernatural' at Soul Survivor, Watford, UK in 2019. I knew then that the Scotts were flirting with Bethel but didnt know they had started working as ministers at Annaheim Vineyard at that point...
I would have seen red flags had I realised... they were on my watch as people who could get taken over by Bethel and the NAR...
Ofcourse Soul Survivor has had its own problems recently but I think they have been handled very well... ..although final report is still to come out.. so difficult to tell if response was proportionate or not until then...
Great talk, especially for someone like me that is fairly new to the Vineyard movement. I hold Pete Greig in high esteem as well, I was confused as to your comments about him, are you disappointed with him or are you ok with his actions? I read some of his comments on what happened and it seems like he is trying to straddle the fence, and see where both sides have some points, is that what you were referred to with him, that he refuses to come out stronger against the actions of the Scotts? Appreciate what y'all do, great stuff!!
I think Greig was in a rock and a hard place for sure. So I can both understand and appreciate that. That being said, I would like to see a LITTLE BIT MORE than "I love everyone and I just can't abide by this." If this action is as unethical as it would seem, and I really think there's almost ZERO chance of being able to see it any other way, he should speak up more, IMO.
That being said, I really like him and his ministry and have found him at least great in having left the board. But THAT should be more prominent in this situation, IMO.
Be careful as to how 'high esteem' you hold any man or woman. The pitfalls in that area huge. It's wise to keep leaders on a par, power wise with everyone else, able to share vulnerably and fully.
I was thinking about this after reading the articles, seeing the videos from both sides, and now watching this. Pastor Alan Scott said that God spoke to him and said that they needed to leave the Vineyard movement and trust him (to paraphrase). What if God really did speak to him but to remove him from the vineyard movement because he sovereignly saw that the Scott’s would harm the Vineyard whether they stayed under the Vineyard name or joined higher leadership in the Vineyard? Maybe another way to phrase it is this: “Can God speak to corrupt leaders to tell them to move one way, when God is really removing them out of the way because they are a stumbling block? And, in a sense, allowing those corrupt leaders to deceive themselves because they believe God is benefiting them and that they are really worshipping God?
I guess to even ask a deeper question and I would love your thoughts, does God ever deceive people and/or does God ever allow corrupt people to deceive themselves because God speaks to them to remove them while they believe it is for their benefit.
...well there is the scripture that says God sends deception to those who dont love the truth but love unrighteousness 2 Thess 2:10-11
And you have a lieing prophet sent to a king in the OT to take him into battle and to his death.
They need new by-laws by Vineyard USA to prevent this from happening in the future!
Agreed! Churches should revisit their by-laws on a regular basis!
This is a heartbreaking situation as i attended the Anaheim Vineyard for decades and praying for reconciliation and that the Anaheim Vineyard returns one day. It may just come down to the courts righting this mistake and poor decisions made by this couple from causaway Vineyard who have covered up there covetousness by falsly saying the Holy Spirit told them to leave. I love the Vineyard but where is the honor and integrity by this young couple from Northern Ireland?
Great questions! Honor seems to only go one direction with these false teachers :(
What do you think about the recent updates on spiritual abuse that has come to light?
My first thought is, "Yep... like I said... that all confirms what we all figured."
I just wrote a piece on the issue: sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com/p/alan-scott-spiritual-abuse-and-the
I was a secret. Charismatic
Some of the issues about this terrible church split in Anaheim are the lack of a mature form of church govt and the Vineyard Association's fuzziness about the role of prophets and so called apostles in the life of the Vineyard churches. No accountability to a congregation, no transparency about budgets and finances and no constitutional way of removing if necessary run away or sinning pastors.
P.S. I watched John a year before his death Under judgement ... He told us God wanted to take an offering for the poor..we gave fifteen thousand that night...he haf the money in hand and said in front of all of us :" Gee..I really feel the Lord wants me to give this to Paul" and handed it to Paul Cain...of course they split it...I talked to the district attorney the next day and they wanted me to contact the police so they could arrest Wimber..and I was still too brainwashed...God never had people steal from the poor...Get a clue your leasers and prophets are in Hell
Yeah, this practice didn't end. Lance used the "special offering" for the poor at Thanksgiving for staff and expenses, even after telling us that it was for the poor.
I found this out and asked around, apparently Van Pewther who was on the board was fired for bringing up this very subject with Lance.
This is what Van told me, and he seemed honest about it, its another indication that the accusation that Alan stacked the board is silly, Lance did the same and ran the church as his own piggy bank.
When I was excommunicated by Lance for asking questions he didn't like, and given the silent treatment (staff was forbidden to talk to me, exactly how Lance treated Christy and Sean Wimber, Carl Tuttle, and I'm sure many others).
I was around for Westmoore scam as well, that was a 51 million dollar ponzi scheme run out of the Vineyard that nobody likes to talk about....sadly, only a few life savings lost and a suicide or too, all a day in the life of the big city megachurch.
I don't believe in hell, but if it's exists, it was made for guys like Lance.
@@michaelsbeverly thank you!! I just saw your response... Joe Gillentine took everything from me...He is a Luciferian...He has his own secret group..He inducted me...I left before he revealed who his God really was ..Jenny hinted it at it st my initiation...
It's the time to pray God's justice.
They were able to steal the Anaheim Vineyard because I'm 1995 John Wimber OWNED the Vineyard lock stock and barrel...John was scared of prosecution under Ricco so he put the corporation in the name of a female office underling....
Look how tan you are! You're a Californian now
Been one for about six years now. It's fun.
Been one for about six years now. It's fun.