NASCAR Fan Reacts to Group B: When Rallying Got TOO FAST
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
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Audi sent Michele Mouton, a highly ranked rally driver, with a Group B Audi to the 1985 Pike's Peak hill climb. She, of course, destroyed the course record by 10sec and beat all the competition that year by 30sec. Mouton and Pat Moss (Stirling Moss's sister) are the 2 most well know women drivers in World Rally. FYI Moss was an Austin Healey factory driver.
Agreed .. also speaking about those record time racing at Pikes Peak when the up-hill race was not even paved even more dangerous.. everyone here talks about how dangerously the group-B rally was but Pikes Peak had fatalities as well, just like other forms of motorsport : F1, 24h- Le Mans, NASCAR, INDY 500, 8 figure, Dakar .. in fact al forms of motorsport starting from motor-bikes (Isle of Mann TT) to Go-Karts and up-wards ALL have dangerous situations with different awkward fatalities that had been seen.. so i really don't get this rapid hysteria of reaction to Group-B considering what i mentioned here.. if you were fan of that sport and you go there or watch live you will understand just like Europeans wonder what is with Wrestling dudes : from Hulk Hoogan.. to J.Cena - that grab chairs to smash the head of opponents in a freaking-hylarious-parranoic show-fight hitting the opponents with they head to the corners of the ring while the audience eat popcorn ? how is that considered sporty or even something legal to watch ?!! Box is a raw gentlemen fight has rules but wrestling is so stupid..
@@poplaurentiu4148 all the races you’ve talked about have tightened up rules and added more safety standards, more drivers were dying so they did there best to fix what they could, it wasn’t a boxing match it was an underground cage fight, cool but good people died, TT can’t really do much cause there’s only some much you can do to make a motorcycle safer, ie survive a 150+mph crash without any thing but a little bit of bike and your body for cushion.
@@Spearmint22425 Juan Fangio was asked by young reporter what was his greatest accomplishment in racing. His answer was "I'm alive".
I got to talk to her at Rally Estonia last year when i was a marshal there, she's honestly a really nice person and very passionate about the sport
Agreed, all I have to say is total BAD A’s!!
Henri Toivonen's death was the catalyst for change to group a. F1 in the 1980's got up to 1500hp in qualifying mode. Toivonen was to rally what Senna was to F1.
The original audio was really heart breaking, hearing the marshals fight between each other and the poor marshal trying to call it in screaming at them to move their backsides and get it into gear and get to the scene asap. There was a lot of incompetence in the marshals back then and no cohesive team work.
It has been changed and cut i think for respect to the dead and its difficult to hear the original audio.
@@theghost6412 I don't think the marshalls could have done anything. I mean, considering it was well off the road on a rally stage and burst into flames on impact because of the inadequate design of the fuel tank.
@@arconeagain they should not however taken as long as they did to get to the scene of the accident. They didn't mobilize immediately which is what you expect for a team of Marshals to do, they are on standby at any second for a reason. They took far too long to get there, whether they could do anything or not. That alone brings questions, did they have a chance to save them?
@@theghost6412 no chance, watch the amateur footage.
@@arconeagain oh I have watched it a hundred times many years ago, just dumbfounded how ill equipped and slow they were. That accident itself was fatal from the get go, but there truelly was no excuse for the marshals. They were somewhere else on the course, which brought to attention how understaffed they were. They were not prepared to even look after the event. There was a massive backlash and huge reform of how races are conducted after this fiasco in all other classes. They really failed this one. Whether they could do anything or not, it was inexcusable.
This is the kind of American I really like! Curious about the world, at the same time he is proud of his own country! Respectful, and kind 🙂
Jeremy Clarkson does a great segment on top gear about how group B came to be, and the fight between Audi and Lancia to be the best while bending the rules to get there.
BTW the Lancia tube role cage was cardboard tubes made to look like metal to save weight, making the drivers even more crazy.
My friend its in the grand tour series :)
It wasn't, it was just weak. Read between the lines of show storytelling
@@francescober Not even between the lines, Clarkson literally says “I’m not saying they did this, but if you look at the wrecks from crashed Lancias you can see they weren’t exactly strong” or something like that.
Moving cars between car parks, salting the track, not entering rallies they would lose then entering multiple cars on rallies that they would destroy.. Gotta love Lancia
tube roll cage made of cardboard tubes ? cannot believe that
Where did you find that statement ? is that not criminal ?
Literally every car guy who finds out about GroupB late into the game
"Oh wow! This is fucking amazing! I love these cars!!! What a fantastic series!!!!!"
"Oh shit... Yeah... That had to stop. Wow..."
But in the end, we all find one car from Group B in particular that we add to the "dream list" of cars we would gladly own.
Was fun watching you discover this part of automotive history.
Exactly.. the famous Ken Block started all his Gymkhana and rally saga because Group-B.. all improvements we see on most ice-cars ( before the full EV era starting to grow ) like all wheel drive traction, semi-auto gearbox, different suspension packs shocks coils & dampers, electronic hydraulic hand-brake, all these have improved a lot in daily road cars because of raw testing and data collected from the WRC Group-B.. and the Group-B was not the most evolved form since that suppose to follow in the Group-S that should follow next year but since Group-B got banned by FIA, Group-S was ditched as well before we got the chance to see how good the innovation would improve the performing in this form of motorsport.. WRC & Rally-Cross..
Just one?
The Toyota MR2 concept car for me that Or the Ford 2000 I think it was called
@@swakage13x ford rs200
All this cars in my list =). But quattro... ehh =)
I had a run on nordschleife with walther röhrl..... there are no words to describe the terror and fear you go throu when he is "going easy" ..... the moment he switches to "racemode" you want to die.... BUT also you feel absolut secure and save.... cant explain it....
Best 7 minutes of my live
You are a lucky person, to be driven easy and also in full attack mode and feel those thrilling exciting moments in same vehicle with such great legend..
rohrl is a legend, no wonder you want to die but feel safe at the same time lol
There is one story on the nordschleife... Walter Röhrl beat Michel Schuhmacher, past him, .... both drive the same typ Porsche. 😉
damn you are lucky
@@friedhelmmunker7284 Ferrari 599 it was
I was a mechanic for a group N team during 1986. The group B cars were incredible. You need to see the video of Marku Allen driving the Lancia 037 on the 1000 lakes rally. Pure mastery of the car and terrain. Keeping the 2 wheel drive Lancia ahead of the Audi's on the gravel stages!
Y ganar el mundial del 83 !! Incluido Montecarlo , Córcega y..... Grecia !!!!!!! A los Audi
037 is so recognizable, amazing car and definitely my all time favorite rally car. ❤️
16:36 Thats Markku Alen
I was at Portugal rally when that accident happened in Sintra. The group B was amazing. Great cars, drivers and skills. The sensation when the cars passing by you is outstanding, your adrenaline and emotions climb to unimaginable standards. I was born in 65 and I've had great luck to see and living those moments . It's very hard to explain the feeling if you haven't lived that moment. Big hug
The crazy part? The FIA was thinking of one-upping Group B with the even more bonkers Group S prototypes. A bit over 900 kg + 600 bhp in race trim + snow, gravel, dirt + those crazy spectators . . . I mean, what could go wrong?
And then Toivenen and Cresto's horrific accident.
Lancia fanatic here, ever since the Fulvias and especially the Stratos. For Group B it was the 037 for me.
Its sad. I feel like they could do it again today. We have so much more in terms of safety, they could avoid certain stages and restrict spectators of course. It would be incredible to see today, and to see burgeoning innovation. FIA wants to go electric though
Yes group S, Audi for example had a prototype mid engines pure race car for that class there are videos on CZcams where you see it driving
I gather Group S prototypes from a few manufacturers exist. The Audi of course and a Toyota MR2 group S car I gather exists.
Group S would make the sport even better.
Not The S4?
The spectators were definitely the crazier, in some countries it was considered a badge of honour to actually touch the car as it went past. There's at least one anecdote about mechanics finding a spectator's finger caught in the bodywork at the end of a stage...
The Renault was only 2WD, it predated the Quattro, but still had the engine in the middle like the later Peugeot.
The Metro 6R4 was 4wd and was normally aspirated, so no turbo lag. When Group B ended there were still many 6R4s sitting around unsold, so they became a cheap go-to for European Rallycross. The engine was eventually developed for use in the Jaguar XJ220.
Despite the legendary power of the Group B cars, it was only a few short years before the more production-based Group A cars like the Lancia Integrale and Ford Escort Costworth were posting faster stage times...
czcams.com/video/Zz472ocDJjc/video.html
czcams.com/video/cDRkHXMHqFo/video.html
there's an actual video on youtube regarding group B rally that actually shows the fingers pulled out
from the Peugeot factory explained why they are competing in the Rally
when they invent a new thing they need to test it ...
but all factory tests are "under controlled conditions"
so the only real place is Rally
Paris - The Dakar Rally and Group B were a testing ground for the technologies we have in cars today
The factory said that the stresses on the chassis and parts during one race that lasts about 7 days, they need 3-5 years of "testing" in the factory
The cars were extremely expensive, up to $ 1 million apiece
there was no saving, victory is important, but also the test of parts
today’s sport shock absorbers were developed in Rally races
4x4 drive
semi-automatic transmissions
turbochargers that pulled over 1000 hp from 1500 cc
and so on
The fingers is no Joke..... it was common to find fingers in the middle of the body panels....
My dad was big into rallying when I was a kid in the 80s so I got the see these as a really small kid. But they were just too powerful, particularly for the stages they were driven on. Later research actually showed that changing scenery was at times coming at the drivers so fast that it was physically impossible for the human eye to properly focus fast enough. And the last interview Henri Toivonen gave before the accident is just haunting. Talking out of the window of his car he complained that the daily distances raced in the Corsica rally were just too much in these cars, the interviewer asked (paraphrasing from Finnish) "The human body can't take it?", Henri replied "The human brain can't take it" and drove off.
@Myrkky100 This put a lump in my throat.
I loved watching Group B when I was a kid. Personally I think it's the co-driver sitting next to the driver, giving directions that had to be the craziest.
I vividly remember waving at the drivers in Group B cars as they were transitioning between stages in the Rally New Zealand.
They ALL would wave back and the cars were just incredible.
The noises they made would send shivers down your spine but NONE could hold a candle to the AUdis. Their 5cylinder engines just sounded like perfection!
It’s my dream to own a replica s1 e2! That sound is too ridiculous. The 5 cylinder Audi TTRS can even sound almost like it!
Audi RS3s sound very similar to the S1 Quattro. I heard one on the street through my earphones ALL WHILE BLASTING LOUD MUSIC and I had to turn around to check if there really was a Group B rally car near me, because that Audi I5 engine... Man, it literally sounds just like the rally car does on videos and in racing games, like Assetto Corsa and the Dirt series! It's a shame they aren't competing in the WRC right now.
@@tomislavvazdar3286 really? I heard a TTRS and even at low rpm it sounded like the Quattro, I gotta get one!!
I remember the group b cars and their noise too. The Audi sounded glorious but they all could be heard after they passed you for ages afterwards as they barked and banged through the forestry. Personally, I loved the noise the Metro 6R4 made, it was unique.
I checked out the Manukau Super stage. in 87 I think
As a Finn, I can't help but blurt out that during the short reign of Group B three Finns won the World Rally Championship: Hannu Mikkola (Audi Quattro), Timo Salonen (Peugeot 205) and Juha Kankkunen (Peugeot 205). They could drive...a little.
As an Aussie I'm in awe of the Finns in all sports esp rallies. I'd marry a Finnish woman in a heartbeat.
@@Chapps1941 As an Argentinian, me too man, me too 🥰
Like they say in car sports: If you want to win get a Finn
Finns and Rally mix like.... Sebastians and Rally I guess
Kankunnen was my inspiration. Quiet, cool and shite hot behind the wheel.
I remember these races in Spain. You could hear the next car coming minutes before you could see it due to the huge amount of curves.
Me and my buddies used to get up very early to get a spot in the best curve.
I can tell you that nobody was there to sabotage any driver. Everybody there just wanted to see the next car passing faster than the previous. It didn't matter if it was your favorite driver/car. All you wanted is to see the next car sliding with the throttle fully open. I fucking miss those races 😁
The next car from lancia, Delta, was twin charged, turbo AND support charged.
Group b cars typically ran with more than 500hp, they could dial it up to 1000.
0-60 times: 2.3 seconds. On _gravel_
Gday Ian. Great clip. Those Group B cars were absolute beasts. I reckon rally drivers are THE best drivers. Take a Go Pro drive with one and be prepared to need new underwear quickly!!
I think the same, rally drivers are a whole different beast
Been in the car with Ken block for a demo rally stage, yeah the guy processes things at an insane pace.
Granted I wasn't the first guy to take a ride that day but even when he has the track memorized it's pretty damn insane the car control that he has.
Shame that car burnt to the ground.
@@dabh4204 well that is why some if the finish formula 1 drivers were also ralley drivers…
Race of champions results would support that claim.
Mostly rally drivers that win
ride with one I want to drive the car specially the rs200 and the rallycross cars
There was a French woman named Michele Moutan that could run with any of the men. She just needed to finish the stage to win the championship, But she had a mechanical failure and came 2nd.
That was the lady who had to deal with the death of her father if I remember correctly in that championship.
One hell of a lady and awesome driver to boot.
She's lucky she came at all. The men are usually spent well before that. :)
After Group B was banned from Rally, some cars were repurposed for rally raid or Hillclimb races. Michele Mouton raced (and won) Pikes peak hillclimb race in 1985 with a heavilly modified Audi Quattro, setting a new record time. Bobby Unser Jr (one of the local racers) was pissed and the legend told he exchanged few word with Mouton who replied to him "If you have the balls you can try to race me back down as well."
After that, she's notably know as the co-founder of the Race Of Champions in honnor of Toivonen and Cresto. It's an annual race between various driver (Formula one, indycar, nascar rally, motorbike...) on a parallel track layout with different kind of cars (road going, rally, GT...)
Today, she's working at the FIA to promote women in motor racing
That was the legendary race between Michelle Moutan and Walter Röhrl. Were he admits today that it was a failure to win the championship.
@@axlm.808 Bobby was a meh indycar driver compared to Al Sr. and Al Jr.
The Lancia S4 was BOTH turbo- and supercharged!
I was a teenager in the 80s and was obsessed with this. I did buy a 88 Mazda 323GTX which 4WD and little turbo motor that was built for rallying (and no ABS, airbags or TC back then) and it was such a blast.
These rally cars really started the ant-lag function of dumping fuel into the turbo to keep it spinning when off throttle.
You should also check out the Audi 90 that they ran in the IMSA series back then it was insane and Walter Rohl is a god at car control. (I still have the poster of it on my office wall).
Managed to see the IMSA Audi’s run in anger at Mid-Ohio the two years they were legal. Golden Age of IMSA GTP’s, GTO’s and GTU’s. The number of factory teams was incredible. Seems IMSA is back on that path again 🏁
Michele Mouton, one of the Audi drivers who came within about a point of being the first female World Champion, said of spectators something like "It is better not to hit the spectators because they might damage the car". You may know the name because she also set the outright record at Pikes Peak, back in the day!
she said she imagined the people as trees and you don’t want to hit trees
@@grendelum
Ah, thank you - the tree bit does trigger memories. Might have been another driver from back then?
Walter Röhrl beat her in a rear wheel drive Lancia when she drove her awd Audi Quattro... He even dodged many events like Finland because of all the jumps saying "I am a rally driver, not a pilot"
GW1......................they had a few commercials back in the day , and I wanted her to be my wife !!!!!!!!..............and I would have let her drive any time !!!!!
@@dannycalley7777 you know those 4 letters? starts with an S and ends with a P? you knows those two other letters in the middle? I and M? just asking..
Walter Röhrl was an absolute rally monster in that era
There is probably 5 people who could come close to his footwork in a racecar till this day
Was also definitely a unique character. I can't remember much of his quotes but he's let out some interesting stuff. Also if he had driven in all the rallies he would have been champ but he chose not to drive the rallies he didn't like. In example my favorite bit of the calendar (quite obviously if you read my username) rally finland, stating that if he wanted to fly he'd step on a airplane. xD
walter Röhrl audi quattro
the best pilote on groupe b
Best ever!
was yeah, but never dared to drive the Finnish rally which is the fastest gravel rally and the most jumpers. He reasoned that because he did not want to fly a car.
Walter Röhrl took a lap on the famous nurburgring "nordschleife" with a porsche and found himself in a battle with a Ferrari. The driver of the Ferrari made a small mistake and Walter took the oportunity to pass. Eventualy the Ferrari driver stoped him to congratulate......it was Michael Schumacher.
Walter Röhrl is an absolute legend!!
Rally was a huge TV sport in the UK when I was in my teens in the 80’s. It was great to see these cars going like stink in the Welsh mountains, pitch black and snowing! Got to watch the Peugeot, MG 6R4, Ford RS200 go against each other in Rally Cross (a made for TV sport where cars run with each other on rally-like custom tracks). These things could do 0-60 in under 3 seconds in the 80’s
The mid eighties was the high light of my rally experience. I was racing motorcycles at local events and was always interested in Rallycars. After spectating at several local events here in the Pacific Northwest I was able to find the right people to help me get involved and eventually enter some events. Most US rallies were run at night only. After a couple years. I was asked to drive one of the two pace cars for Toyota in the Olympus rally in 1985. Which was the first world class rally that came to the USA. What a great opportunity. At that time I had no idea that Group B would become such a special era in the sport. I remember how excited I would get telling friends about these factory supported rallycars. How cool they sounded. Of course most people here in the states admired muscle cars and couldn't imagine a little four cylinder making the sounds I would try to describe. It's really only now with CZcams and guys like you presenting this special time in motorsports that some of these people are waking up to what they missed back then. I will always cherish the first hand experience of these crazy exciting cars...... Cheers
was in my 20's when Group B was around in the 80's, and was a huge rally fan (even volunteered in the running of state and National events here in Australia) but Group B got hugely dangerous with a few European competitors crashing and dying which effectively banned the formula but there was still a lot of innovation like the semi-auto boxes , small wheel base also is a lot easier to spin in a hairpin then a long wheel base, cheers, Garry from DownUnder
A Carmagazine measured the Lancia Delta S4 from 0 - 100 km/h (0 to ~62,14 mph) in 2.4 seconds ... on gravel/loose underground. That was Formula 1 acceleration on a tarmac racetrack at that timeperiod.
I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that the s4 fully turned up to max would make 1000hp
@@TheSpliffMaster I only know/read about the lastest evolution stage for Rallye-Cross and Hillclimb with 480kW ~650hp. But if anyone knows where to look this up I'd like to know.
Another thing, if you want to see a carjournalist from germany who is famous for never stop talking, going completely silent in a S4, here's a treat for you
czcams.com/video/ecPzCTYaPew/video.html
They're talking german, but you have unfiltered sound from the inside of the car, so turn up the volume and hope your ears don't fall off ;)
Also nice reaction and greetings from germany :)
Years ago I spoke to the rich and lucky owner of the Delta S4 ex Alen who raced in the 1986 Argentina Rally. He told me that that S4 exceeded 700 hp with boost
My first car was a 1986 Audi 4000 CS Quattro, with that 2.2-liter flat 5, and after a Porsche 718S, Audi S5, and many other cars, to this day it is still my favorite car. Growing up in Boston and having that 5-speed and the differential controls, popping the e-brake at a turn and dropping the clutch in 2nd gear in the snowy winters and munching around the corner spitting up snow and mud... God I loved that car.
First family car I remember was an Audi 100, which my dad brought back over from the USA actually, because he worked there for 2 years and bought an automatic over there (my family has never owned manual shifts ever after that, even tho we all had to learn on shift drive because there was no other way to learn - today you can do automatic only which allows you to only drive automatic after) since automatic (unfortunately still) was really available in Europe back then.
That Audi 100 was still a CAR. There is a picture of me and my brother sitting on the hood of the car (dead center), because back then cars were still sturdy enough for that. If we had done that to the Mitubishi Galant we owned next, the hood would have had a huge dent. Also the Audi 100 was a front wheel drive and you could drive it right into a snowbank and would still easily come out because the car was front heavy and had high torque. My mom loved that, because back then we still had lots of snow in Austria (have not had snow like that in 20 years now due to climate change) and many public parking spots were not cleaned, but she could just force drive in and get out without issue, while most others had to find other spaces.
Henri Toivonen tested his Lancia Delta S4 on a track that was also used by Formula 1. His best time would have qualified the Delta 'hatchback' 8th on that years F1 grid! The Delta S4 accelerated from 0-62mph in 2.9 seconds...on gravel.
Thats a myth sadly.
@@skrillah6259 Indeed it is. But as stories go, its a good one.
Only in Europe do you get the crazy crowds like this. Nothing like these crazy scenes were experienced in Australia.
For as many years as they held it here, I used to volunteer for the Telstra Rally Australia WRC event. As much as we used to get on the roads to snap a cheeky pic, we never became the bunting! 😂
Mainly Portugal....... the other countries had crazy crowds but mostly on slow corners....
Portuguese fans wanted to be under the car when the car jumps.....
Well, Australia went crazy for ABBA.
Great video.
Living on this side of the pond, I'm a Rally fan since childhood.
Lancia Stratos and other Lancia Models were amazing.
Peugeot the small 4Wd and featuring a Turbo and a Supercharger was really state of the art.
Renault had several models, my favourite being the Alpine. The Porsches couldn't just compete.
Alpines are very popular road sport cars, worth looking them up (You tube has several videos about them)
One of my friends here in Portugal, a Car-guy with an impressive coplection, owns an Alpine -- winner of the Monaco Rally.
However, he was not the driver behind the wheel -- after the Rally, he purchased the vehicle from the Factory .
Somo F1 drivers took the seat beside the drivers and got a taste of the action.
Deeply impressed and kind of scared at the end of the show...
The ultimate was the metro 6R4. It was a tiny city car adapted to produce 450BHP which was delivered through 4 four wheels.
Loved it bit it was pretty far away from the street metro. The 6R4 was sort of mid engined for a start and it wasn't running an A series engine. It had a v6
I had a wee 1 litre metro. Burst the hydragas on back road humps😂
Juha Kankkunen was one of the best also in rallying, he lives near my place and once i saw him at local store we started to talking about Henri Toivonen.. kankkunen is one of the legends and one of the most skilled drivers ever. also my father built most of his house with Juha's brother (which was drunk all the time :D)
Something they didn’t mention was what the manufacturers had on the drawing board which is one of the main reasons for changing the rules. Lancia had a mini sized Ferrari looking bodied supercharged twin turbo v6 4x4. It was nuts and the others were designing similar insane vehicles.
Great to watch but the rules needed to be changed.
It also screwed WRC for years. Lancia went on a five year run because noone would spend the money after getting burned by Group B ending. At the very tail end of Group B the big manufacturers started to spend F1 money. There were cars on the drawing board with astronomical costs to build and run. After Group B ended they mostly all walked away. They'd field underfunded teams just to say they were there, but when looking at the red on a balance sheet for cars that didn't even get to run they were just done. Leaving Lancia as the only company truly still competing. It almost killed the sport. It took years for companies to start trusting WRC again.
@@halycon404 imagine that even Ferrari was finishing a car for the Group B......
The 288GTO
@@MiTraFilipesoares Yeah because after Group -B suppose to follow Group-S with even more crazy mid-engines cars with more innovative tech kevlar & composites body panels like Audi Sport Quattro RS 002, BMW M1 Rally PRO-CAR, Lancia ECV1 ECV2, Lada EVA S, Peugeot Quasar 405 T16 turbo, Ford RS 200-S, Toyota MR2-222D, Mazda RX7S, Opel Kadett 4X4 E4S, Seat Ibiza Bimotor, Mitsubishi Starion 4WD Rally Prototype and Porsche wanted to enter with few 959 and above all Scuderia Ferrari tested the 288 GTO..
Now with such prototypes beasts in the pipeline, i think WRC would become even wilder & crazy.
you're talking about the legendary lancia stratos, the precursor of the 037. this car absolutely dominated it's time!! it looked like a mini ferrari, and actually the engines where v6 ferrari engines!! it wasn't a 4x4 though, it was racing at a time when there wasn't yet any 4x4 in ralleying.
@@sternschnupper no I’m talking about the never fully made car to follow. You can see the plans for it. The legendary stratos is massive in comparison. Look at the lancia ecv 2. Not a v6 but a 600hp 4pot.
I remember that crash very well, growing up in Portugal and a country massively rally fanatic, it went on the news (radio/tv/newspapers) for weeks...
Walter Röhrl, best Rallydriver ever: »When we talk about driving, driving is rally driving. Everything else is a child's birthday party«. Even Formula1. 👊👌😊
I grew up in Group B eras , to be able to watch rally so close was absolutely nut to compare, I still have my 205 GT I and drive it ocasionaly only to remind me those glorious era of rallying.
Group B was the most insane form of rally, go hard or go home racing at it's extreme
But, It was go hard and end up in a box
Kinda similar to the Irish road racing series and in particular, the isle of man TT.
Group-B was insane and very brutal indeed but not just for the crowds of people flooding those racing stages but for pilots as well since they suffer of total exhaust, pain in legs, arms & neck pain caused by focusing & concentrating hard on these stages, since the cars were so wild & brutal and too fast for them, they constantly need to adapt the brain to keep the car dancing on those rough rally stages and avoid the crowds that were there to cheer them, a quick mistake could call for a massive disaster.. super crazy but that was precisely what attracted the crowds to watch them.. also super weird is how nobody talks or reacts about other brutal races from South Africa, Kenya, Dakar with some derived cars from the Group-B beasts.. but that is the case for also plenty other form of Motorsport racing disciplines like Insle of Mann TT ? Dragsters ? Bonneville salt-lake deaths attempting to brake the land speed record ? Pikes Peak deaths ? Le-Mans deaths ? Indy -500 or Nascar ? F1 deaths ? anyone - no one ?.. interesting that only Group-B - WRC is the only racing motorsport discipline triggered..
Still like that modern wrc cars are even faster than group b.
@@skrillah6259 no
My brother and I used to love watching Group B, supporting Sarel van der Merwe and Franz Boshoff in the Audi Sport Quattro from South Africa.
very nice to see to someone who appreciates car engineering, usually these reaction videos are "woah slidely slidey" while you understand the differences between the engineering decisions that were made, respect :)
Best way to describe rallying is driving as fast as you can, on a road you have never driven on before, relying on verbal directions. They really are the most skilled drivers.
Yes, the fact there are no practice laps, only a recce in a road car for pace notes is mindboggling.
WRC is the greatest motorsport on earth. Group B was insane but needed to be stopped.
The 80's & 90's was a wild time for rally, world rally driver's loved coming to Western Australia because of our world famous pea gravel, real shame world rally stopped coming to Perth.
I owned a Quattro in the 90s and it was a beast. I drove from Paignton to Liverpool in 2 hours 50 minutes, a distance or 280 miles. It was raining the whole way and I set off at six in the evening and got to Liverpool before nine. A total beast, came out one evening and it had been taken by someone. Police said it’s probably in a container heading out of the country.
My mother was working as a licensed nurse in 1986 and her friend was an ambulance driver. The ambulance had delivered a corpse to the morgue and the driver noticed what looked like a trash bad on the autopsy table. He asked if they wanted him to throw the trash when he was making his way out. The pathologist answered "No, don't you recognise him, it is Henri Toivonen". Basically only remains of a racing suit with bones and charcoal inside.
Hearing about his death was a huge blow to a 17-year old me, who was idolising the rally drivers - being a Finn, as we had so many champions those days. I was actually studying to become a car mechanic and was working as a mechanic at a rally team too.
I've actually driven 2 group B cars, a Ford and a Lada - yes they had one too! Sadly my skills have never been good enough to accomplish anything, I did do a few races though.
After group B rally has not been the same. And probably for the better it will never be that wild ever again.
I used to watch the group B rally when I was in my teens , when it went through Wales (UK). You could basically stand anywhere along the stage. There was a saying that went "rallying was for the boys, group B rallying was for the men. However, there was a female driver who could put anyone, especially in the group B rally to shame. Check out the legend, "Michele Mouton" she is the fastest female driver in the world.
Amongst her many achievements she went on to compete at the Pikes Peak Hill Climb in the mid 80's, winning the event and breaking Al Unser Jr's record on her second attempt. Something her american rivals didn't like at all, especially Bobby Unser who said some things about her to which she supposedly replied "If you have the balls you can try to race me back down as well." Hope that last part is true.
@@JoseMVelazquez Ye I know mate. The woman was a legend in a car, she is one of my all time favourite drivers.
@@lextex3280 tbh it would be spectacular if there was some kind of series about her life and motorsport, like netflix did with queen's gambit. no fiction can beat reality, and michele was really just a monster! imagine how amazing it would be to watch
@@gustavogoesgomes1863 I totally agree, that would be awesome to watch.
Loved Group B, remember watching in the dark in Keilder Forest in the UK. Noise then the brightness of the headlights in pods along the front then the bright orange glow of the brake disks as they swept past. Good memories, tho had to end as the danger to drivers and spectators was just crazy
Shortly before the fatal accident, Henri Toivonen said in an interview that "this is physically exhausting, and the brains can't keep up". Rest in peace.
Group B was insanity. Flying through the air with fire shooting out exhausts
2 cars I always wanted during the 90s and early 2000s was Lancia delta Intergrale and the Ford Escort cosworth with the whale tail wing 😊 and to be honest with a lotto win, I’d have a cosworth in my garage for sure 😉🤣
Yeah, the Delta Integrale is often considered the top of the hot hatch list. I had the pleasure of driving a rented 1.9 205 GTi for a weekend and man was that a buzz.
@@johnvender I nearly bought one but it was white a GTI I mean. Big regrets from that 😩
Yeah the Escort Cozzie is a naughty car, Prob still my dream car....
I remember someone round my ways in the 90s, Got his hands on an Ex police Cozzie, F knows how but that was a 160mph monster....
The sound on it taking off I still remember, But yeah the Escort RS Cosworth, 2.0 DOHC is an amazing car, Not forgetting the Sierra lol....
@@mad-b264
The Cosworth Escort was just a shortened Cosworth Sierra anyways, at least mechanically.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Yeah you is right, But still the Escort RS cozzie is a bad ass looking car, lol....
You have to realize that with any track racing, as the cars evolve, the tracks evolved too, providing adequate and enhanced security. In rallying, the cars evolved up to the genius madness of group B, but the roads remained the same... The same trees, same cliffs, same everything and the spectators came in droves (me too). Rallying started to get more popular even than formula 1, and not everyone was happy about this... Then the Toivonen accident in Corsica was the one tragedy that served as the best excuse to put an end to group B. We will never see any madness remotely approaching these up to 550 HP machines blasting through forests, country roads and villages, gliding at maximum speed through hundreds of thousand applauding spectators without even the slightest of safety measures! It was a different world back then for sure!
I happened to see that video "on my own" days ago.
He said the spectators were so enthusiastic that they tried to touch the cars flying past. The crews found fingers stuck in the car's grilles.
As Italian I had goosebumps when you correct the "Lancia" pronounce... Thank you
The big thing for the spectators was to touch the cars as they went past...apparently it was not unusual for service crews to have to remove fingers from bonnet and door shuts at service. PS The Lancia 037 is my all time favourite car.
the old Lancia's was the so unsafe.. Italians trying to save weight and money aren't good for drivers safety.
But they were soooo fast, so well made on the days they were working. God blessed Lancia to be the best rally maker in history.
Here in Scandinavia, one rally stage is going outside the kinder garden my little sisters and brother went to.
So well made on the days they were working really doesn’t make sense champ.
@@murray7584 it does when you remember it's Italians who made it^^
Ok I see what you’re trying to say. Well, they must’ve worked quite well then quite a lot of the time, judging by their success.
@@murray7584 you know Henri Toivonen? have you seen his car? that lightweight that made them great, also killed them. Just ask Walter Rühl, he was smart, so he still here so you could ask him...
Lancia Delta S4: THE MAXIMUM!
Today still used for Hillclimbracing.
Lancia's S4 was their full on, mental GrB entry. It was twin charged, so super charged and turbo charged! The super charger provided instant torque from lower in the rev band, then the turbo came in once the revs were up and exhaust pressure was high to give seamless power and throttle response. From memory they also had a sequential gearbox and very advanced variable torque split AWD system. What amazes me is that all these mental cars could be bought by anyone with the money! The customer versions weren't as highly tuned as the works cars, but had all the trick bits. They were silly money when GrB was still running but I remember when it was dropped all the surplus cars were suddenly heavily discounted. I heard that Metro 6R4's and RS200's were going for £12K, and they couldn't sell them! I pleaded with my dad to buy 1 of each because I knew they would eventually be worth a fortune, but he wouldn't listen. He just thought I wanted more toys and they would never be worth anything! What a missed opportunity. Even as late as the early 90's I saw a Peugeot T16 with only a few K miles on the clock for £15K at a specialist car dealer, it was like new! Very regrettably I passed on it! It's a big if, but had I bought those cars I could have retired comfortably on what they would fetch now, probably around at least £450K for the 3!
The really impressive thing about group B is that only a few years earlier people were renting standard cars, sticking numbers on them, winning occasional stages, then removing the numbers and returning them to the rental company.
Rallying hasn't had great coverage in the UK since the nineties unfortunately.
You should look up the Metro 6R4. It was hilariously bonkers. Pretty much an angular Mini (for anyone who has no idea what a Metro is...) with big arches, four wheel drive and a transversely mounted engine with a few hundred horsepower.
Group B was what turned me into an Audi fan, 😤 this gets me pumped and wishing that they would bring group B back, with safety improvements but let the manufacturers go wild
The spectators that get onto the road are in Portugal, absolutely mental , I used to follow the circuit of Ireland, sadly no more. Started in Belfast and went completely around Ireland, the circuit was the rally to be in ,
There are videos of it check it out
Each year where I live there is the "Rallye du Valais" and it's always a joy to go and see. They also have difting events in the morning and that's always fun too.
From what I've seen in the last few years, Skoda and Renault were the most popular brands here.
the most impressive were the night stages, and the sound of these cars was so loud that we felt it in our whole body when they passed 1 meter away from us.
i saw the S4 racing and obliterating all competition. it was a real monster, over 600hp.
i drove many times the delta integrale evo, the road version of course, that took over where the S4 left. best car ever, bar none.
As a kid watching Group B when it was telecast on TV, the Audi Quattro was always my favourite. It was a world beater when it came on to the scene, nothing could touch it.
The last of those monsters is Ari Vatanen at Pike's Peak. You'll find the whole POV here on youtube called "Climb dance". Breathtaking one!
The big issue with the spectators was the amount, 500,000 would turn up on a stage.
The group A era that followed was very entertaining. Though there were lots of restrictions meaning the cars weren't as exciting, underneath they were like spaceships with the technology. And a new breed of brilliant drivers like Colin McRae made it super competitive.
Motocross in the 1980’s was also kind of in its “Group B” era with real factory built works bikes. Up until 1986 the major manufacturers hand built some very trick motorcycles for motocross which drove production bike technology forward.
Really cool to see someone discover Rally, especially seeing an appreciation of group B. It is truly the pinnacle of Motorsport in my opinion and rally drivers are the most talented.
2 stroke 500s brap brap ..... Absolute killer powerbands .... Mate had a '82 cr500 left hand kickstart.... Forearm pump just gently riding it .... Not to mention his quad ltr500 .... Now they're like madmax "last of the v8 interceptors" scene... Not many left or around.... Or maybe this new generation of riders aren't men enough to throw a leg over and experience the animalistic Widowmakers ?!
I was about 5 plus years old by 1980 but I do remember watching Rally live on TV back in the days throughout the 80's with my dad both in France and Sweden. I t was such a sad moment when they abandoned the B group.
Hi Ian, you are right about the Rallye situation employing the best drivers. I say this because most driving involves traction, then it gets loose and they recover. Rallye is the opposite in most stages whereby the drivers are in a very loose environment, so they are sliding most of the time. Group B was like unlimited class, hence the video title. I know Nth America refer to your continent as 'The World' but WRC is World Rally Championship, including ALL of the World except Nth America, tho Kenny from the Block had a short stint. Lots of fantastic drivers during this class and currently. Look up Walter Rohrl, who drove for Lancia amongst others - there is a bit of footage available about him! Here is a great clip from inside the car, showing what the driver sees, plus you get to listen to the Nav reading thru his pace notes, as the driver must know what to expect before he gets there. czcams.com/video/0YtcA8v-6g8/video.html czcams.com/video/bK_toF3uDt8/video.html Cheers mate.
Would love to see something similar happen now. Its my favorite motorsport but I stopped following it after the Evo, Subie days. 1200kg min , 600hp max. Special stages and an amount of bitumen , like a long distance rallycross. Bring it !😎👍
Your question about spectators trying to sabotage certain drivers is a good one. It absolutely did happen and there’s footage out there that shows it even in more recent years of rally racing. They’ll put large branches on the track, close gates that are meant to be open, etc... all to try and mess up drivers that they aren’t rooting for. It’s incredibly dangerous, reckless, and fucked up. I think doing something like that should be grounds for a charge of attempted murder if you can catch the person who does it because something like that could absolutely lead to a fatal crash.
Those little hatchback bombs man... The Peugeot 205 was a well born car in any form & that's why they are still so popular today for vintage lovers.
The 037 had 205hp for the street version, and went from 255 to 325 hp in the rally version
My first car in the 1980s when I passed my driving test was a Lancia Delta and while it might be rose-tinted glasses ..It handled wonderfully and you could really throw it around corners but the reliability was sometimes fragile and they were prone to rust. Me and my dad gave it a new paint job in metallic dark blue. Additionally .for a car made in 1981 it was the earliest car I owned that had a digital clock..might not sound like much now by god that put you in the cool class in my school when I got it in 1989!
I then moved to the USA and got a ford escort EXP...which was crap to be honest ..but there you go. the EXP is cheap and reliable..but oh so boring to drive
Excellent vid as always mate. Really enjoy your work.
8:56 - Gotta love a rally driver. He almost runs into a herd of cattle on the bloody racetrack, and he's flooring it again two seconds later.
Ian, you should check out the Isle of Man TT racing, for another type of crazy motorsport. It is crazy fast motor bikes....sure you will enjoy it . Cheers from Adelaide, Australia.
I did many many months ago.. absolutely insane indeed, I have a video on it
I can still remember the day Henri Toivonen died. It was early summer in 1986 and i can even remember where i was at that moment the news came out of radio. What a talent he was. Absolutely the fastest driver at that time. He was also a real gentleman. RIP champion.
I remember watching a lot of rally in the late 80s early 90s even went to a couple with my dad. Watching those drivers take corners on dirt at 60mph sideways was incredible. Rally drivers are a class of their own
Ich war dabei! Der Zuschauer, der bis zum Letzten stehenblieb, vom Auto berührt wurde, sich Knochen brach, war der große Held! In Deutschland fuhren auch Privatfahrer bei der "Deutsche Rallye-Meisterschaft" mit, z. B. mit VW Passat Variant (!) mit Allradantrieb!
Here's a must watch video if you really want to get an idea of what Group B was like, and how the drivers were beyond mere mortals. The footwork in particular makes the V8 supercar equivalent look like a sunday drive.
czcams.com/video/wqREtbLe4sY/video.html
Amazing stuff! It's like he's tap dancing.
@@Jordy120 It's incredible isn't it. His eyes get me too, absolute and utter focus and concentration. I remember watching that clip on an old VHS tape years ago and they were interviewing him beforehand where he was saying that these things were so incredibly fast that you literally had no time to think. If you stopped to think even for a second, you were too slow. To drive it was like a sixth sense sort of thing. Only a very few guys and one woman had the ability to drive these things in the manner intended.
@@brendanfromnz What you really need to watch is "Group B - The Age of the Supercar" best homage to Group B ever made.
In case you missed it, Audi invented All-Wheel-Drive for use in their Quattro rally car. The same AWD that many cars use today.
@Mr. Nobody.
In case you missed it, Subaru invented the all wheel drive system for road going cars. Audi made a 4 wheel drive system sporty and popular.
Jensen had their four wheel drive sports car the FF in production from 1966 to 1971 FF stands for Ferguson Formula the people who developed this type of 4 wheel drive
@@alexfeeney4522
Jensen was a exlusive sportscar brand, they didn't populairse all wheel drive to the masses. Spyker was the first one i know off in the 1920's who offered a all wheel driven car. Subaru offered 4 wheel drive systems in all of theire cars in the 1970's, they were reasonably sold in mountainish terrain.
Audi made all wheel drive sporty and atractive to the masses. In theire wake BMW, Mercedes and even Opel (Vauxhall) offerered a all wheel dtive system, to theire sportier models.
Jensen never made such an impact, they went out of buissiness for a reason.
Your statement was Subaru's invented 4 wheel drive not popularised, it even your statement agrees that Audi popularised the format, Ferguson's system was also fitted to a batch of Ford Zephyr for police service in 1969
@@alexfeeney4522
I didn't quite use the right words, Spyker invented all wheel drive for motorcars. Subaru had as an option shiftable 4 wheel drive on all theire models during the 1970's until at least the late 1990'.
What Jensen did i am not familliar with. It is a brand from the UK that went bankrupt in the 1970's or -80's.
I am from the continent and the only Jensen i am familluar with is the Jensen Intercepter. A car with very poor build quality and substantial bhp, a potential death trap.
I remember an interview, where a rally-driver was asked to explain the difference between under- and over-steering.
The driver answered "If you see the tree u r hitting it's under-steering. If you just hear it it's over-steering"
I remember one of the leading drivers, I think Walter Rohrl, in GrB was asked about the danger that the mental spectators caused in some countries, he said something along the lines of, we are racing and the stakes are extremely high with manufacturers and sponsors investing massive amounts to succeed, so we just stay at max speed and hope the spectators move out of the way! This is why air horns are heard in some countries when a car is approaching, to warn spectators to move out of the way. Here in the UK the heavily spectated stages were strictly marshalled to move people out of danger, and it wasn't unknown for those that persistantly put themselves at risk to be removed from the stage. I remember watching in utter disbelief at some of the forest stages, at the incredible speed these cars reached, it was actually scary! I'd watched rallying in the years before GrB and that wasn't slow, but GrB was another realm. If only time travel was possible!
I have photos from a forest stage of the RAC Rally, at night in NorthEast England, when there were Group B cars running - I positioned myself on the inside of a corner and was getting shots of them drifting round.
Of course there were no digital cameras in those days, so I didn't get to see the photos until the film had been developed.
At night it was very dark in the forest, and I was using two powerhead flashguns attached in tandem - basically just panning the shots aimed at the headlights (all I could see of the cars at the time)
I remember feeling the draft of one Audi in particular as it went by..... and when the print came back I had an extreme close-up of a front wheel, the front wing (fender), and my knee in the foreground, less than a foot from the car.
These were extremely lightweight, up to 600 horsepower, 4 wheel drive monsters capable of 0 to 60 in less than 2.5 seconds. Audi’s “Quattro” system was developed from this.
They would often find bits of peoples fingers between the body panels at the end of each stage as spectators tried to touch the cars as they went past. These cars are now the ‘Holy Grail’ for Rally car collectors. Those smaller cars are about the size of a modern Fiat 500 and were insanely fast.
Brings back memories of watching these cars in person great times.
I use to love going to the Lombard RAC rally in the 80's , kielder forest, dolby forest then down to wales.
When I was a kid the Renault was my favorite too. I love the fact that no matter what type of racing, drivers respect eachothers sport and the skill it takes.
I managed to see those beasts live at the 1985 Thousand Lakes Rally when I was 6 years old. I can still feel (not hear, feel) the sound of the cars. My favourite drivers of the era were Michèle Mouton, Markku Alén and Ari Vatanen. Can't really pick a favourite car from the era, as they were all so awesome. After WRC went to group A many of the group B monsters found another life in rallycross. You should check recordings of those races too. There my favourite drivers were Martin Schanche and Matti Alamäki.
A lot of the Lancia cars had fake role cages where they were made from cardboard pipe painted to look like painted steel
Supercharging and turbocharging were used by WW2 bombers. That allowed enough power for takeoff with the supercharging. The turbos kicked in at high altitude to provide enough air because of the lack of air density. I’m pretty sure there were other attempts pre war to apply this approach
My dad still has a 98 Opel Corsa B with an Irmsher chassis and 130 horse power. And even that, beeing far away from a ralley car, tends to feel more like a go-cart while driving than like a car :D
The most brutal machine of Gr.B was the Lancia Delta S4. Supercharged 800hp (a Volumex compressor for the low revs and a Turbo KKK-K27 for the high revs, mean no lag at all) that was able to unleash an amount of torque on pair at the 1500hp 80's F1 turbo cars.
The S4 was doing 0-60 in only 2.5 sec...on gravel. 2.3 sec on tarmac.
This is from back in the 80's when safety was always third. It was almost more the rule than exception than someone got killed at these races. Awesome times!
Lancia bended this 200 manufactured rule too. They showed 100 of them first, then told delegate that the other 100 is in an other place. Then drove the delegate around the city and approached the same place from other side and showed the same 100 cars again.
I've always considered the Lancia Stratos the prettiest car on the planet. It's just perfect.
(And it went like a little rocket 🚀)
It was the development through motorsport which allowed production cars to gain the innovation like power steering, semi auto gearboxes, abs etc
There was also a spectator who stuck his hand out to touch one of the cars, and lost his fingers from the rear ducts that these cars have, the engineers found his fingers chilling in the engine bay
i remember watching group B rally races when i was a kid, i got a a toy rally cars and stuff. Rally is still pretty big in New Zealand, we still have annual hill climb events and the likes.