Form 4 Resin 3D Printer In-Depth Review!
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- čas přidán 16. 04. 2024
- We go in-depth with the newly announced Form 4 resin 3D printer, which we've been testing for the past month! Formlabs has shifted the core printing technology in the Form 4 to utilize an LCD mSLA system, and we find out from their engineers how their implementation differs from other mSLA printers on the market. Here's how the Form 4 compares with the Form 3+ in terms of speed and print detail!
Formlabs Form 4: www.formlabs.com www.matterhackers.com/store/l...
3D models shown:
Ecorche anatomical model: www.characterartworkshop.com/
Brackenosaurus: www.printablescenery.com/prod...
X-wing: www.thingiverse.com/thing:294...
Greblin bust: www.paul-braddock.com/collect...
Praetorian mini: www.myminifactory.com/object/...
Disclosure: Hardware was provided by manufacturer for purposes of review
Shot by Josh Self and Norman Chan
Edited by Norman Chan
Music by Jinglepunks
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Intro bumper by Abe Dieckman
Thanks for watching!
#3dprinting #resinprinting - Věda a technologie
Formlabs Form 4: www.formlabs.com
Disclosure: Hardware was provided by manufacturer for purposes of review
Just a quick comment for those coming from consumer printers. This is not a consumer printer! If you print 24hrs a day, 7 days a week, I can tell you as a professional in the 3D printing industry, that no consumer printer can print reliably day in day out like a Formlabs can. If you look at the TCO of printer ownership, these things pay for themselves in no time. But again, the complainers didn't bother watching the entire video because Norm addresses this in the actual video. The ability to be able to swap between resin types in literally seconds, the choice for 30+ different resin types, the unprecedented reliability and throughput makes it a no-brainer. The other feature rarely mentioned, is that these things are investments that actually improve over time. Formlabs constantly works on improving firmware and features to the point where a Form 3 at release bears little resemblance to a Form 3 today.
Nope. I did watch the whole video. & I get one is more for production while the other even if it can match or even beat it is aimed at a different audience. Norm asked if we wanted to see how it stacks up to other printers.
And yes the FormLabs is expensive. But I would love to see a head to head. Since nothing is stopping the consumer buyer from working some extra shifts & maybe going for the more expensive printer if we can see some further comparison. I’m not here to crap on either. Tested is in a better position to do that kind of a comparison for us Subscribers & Premium members 😉
Having 2 dead Form 2’s sitting in a closet due to defective tanks pouring resin into the base with no help from customer support except “would you like to buy a refurb?” and Formlabs not supporting open-source nor selling replacement parts this is a hard NO.
Same thing for me I hacked the system by wired to external cable in order to read a brand new eeprom for both tank and resin bottle.
Yeah this 3D printers a scam. You’re better off buying a used Saturn 2 S
I got a form 3+ doing nothing because of a dead board. It died exactly a year into ownership and I didn't buy their overpriced "protection plan"
Yeahhhh... I don't even bother using my Form 2 anymore. And with this being MSLA there's even less reason.
Could you share what you learnt?@@3darcwest335
Norm is a really great interviewer...his knowledge on the subject allows him to respectively have control of the interview...I love when Tested goes to companies and does deep dives...whether Adam or Norm. Tested really is a full spectrum channel...
Norm has mastered review interviews. Approaches it from a user perspective and it's so relatable. Thanks Norm!!
This video reassures me that Formlabs is going the right direction here (though whether they're behind and should have embraced mSLA long ago is a separate question). Yes, Form 4 is expensive and barely acceptable resolution compared to other resin printers but comparing this to Elegoo is silly. Formlabs is catering to an entirely different market (industry, dentistry, etc) and those customers don't care all that much about resolution or cost. They want the closest thing possible to a fast and intuitive plug-and-play solution with a wide variety of materials and that's exactly what Formlabs is providing. Form 4 is much faster, has fewer moving parts, and adds meaningful quality-of-life features and design improvements while still maintaining material library compatibility. That's a win in the eyes of their customer base. My chief concern though is that they've shoved new internals into their existing hardware and also are trying to adapt their materials to a new print engine. Maybe it will be fine but that sounds like a recipe for trouble as they transition. They obviously need to have that comparability but I think it could cause some headaches for Form 4. I wouldn't be surprised to see lots of annoying bugs and quirks in this generation, which would sort of undermine the whole value proposition that Formlabs is pitching.
$4500
+proprietary resins
Could buy 6x anycubic m5s pro or a elegoo saturn 4 with that price and i believe works almost the same .
It gets better! $6-9,000 to unlock it and you can use other resins....
@@hellzaid was wondering the same. Is it that much better than the Saturn 4 Ultra?
We have several Form3 in our shop running for over two years, and honestly, they are worth $4000+ by their consistency in mechanical property, reliability, success rate, etc.
We yield approx 80% profit margin on their printed parts. And each machine can pay itself back in 2-3months.
They are not meant for hobby use, but they are worth it if you have a business model that can use them well.
Dude, I love your reviews! All relevant details easily digested and very thorough👍🏾👍🏾
Norm has given us the best video review for quite some time now hasn’t he ?!
Thanks, Norm, another great review! The whole concept of these things are just so appealing…❤
Is so appealing?😂❤
Very enjoyable in depth and balanced review. Thanks Norm 😊
great review norm very infomative and honest all the good bits and the bad, not just a shamless plug to get a freebe printer like so many others, keep up the awsome work!
Great to see Norm as always; wish “this only a test” could get a reboot
Miss it alot, yes.
Question: @45:01 - What are the top 3 printers that a "wants to build engineering parts + hobbyist" would get instead of the $4,500 Form 4?
Great review. Def for the professional or business customer but Too exp for me the hobbyist. I bought elegoo Saturn ultra yesterday. These smaller printers are really catching up to bigger brands with same or better features. I was sold on 12k,tilt release,150mm print speed but mostly the price.
Review from Norm, absolute perfection !
Love Norm!!! ❤
I wish resin was less messy and toxic. Would love to have a resin printer next to my FDM machine but as it stands right now I don't have the ventilation or safety measures in place to operate one =l
I wish they didn't suck for engineering use
They're not really all that messy at all if you're careful. And I have a spray booth for painting models that I just hook up next to it and place the hose against the window and it works fine. The complaints people express about resin printing on videos aren't really as bad as they make them sound, they're often just trying to be fair and list the good with the bad. But it's not a deal breaker at all, I exclusively use resin printing personally, for quality and detail, as well as resin variety for different strengths and grades and applications.
Like a Prusa resin printer?
@@gunsmoke132 you can buy engineering resin but you will pay 2-3 times the price of a normal bottle.
The mixer being attached like that is a major problem. I’ve had a part fall off overnight and because the mixer doesn’t detach, it just kept splashing the resin all over the inside of the machine completely destroying it.
Pretty much everything supposedly cutting edge about this was done by other manufactures well over a year ago. This is a hobby grade LCD printer for the price of a Industrial grade DLP.
LOL :)
Its funny because now Elegoo its using the tilt systems that Formalbs used in 2012 for the Form 1 and then drop for the Form 2.
The only different I see of the Form 4 its that windshield wiper aka resin mixer.
❤ Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! For this video! I am on the spectrum and have a hard time articulating my questions and you have asked all the right important questions perfectly on this interview. Please 🙏 I would love to see a video or playlist of videos dedicated only to the printable materials i.e. silicone and ceramic, was it? And the various resins and how long it takes and a quick overview of what it takes to switch between them.
Great Video!!!
That price is impressively unappealing.
Form products have always been aimed at small businesses and entry level commercial use. For hobbyists, Chinese printers are 90% as good for 1/10th the cost, you just don't get support and the fancy resins that formlabs makes that require super high power light sources.
The new Elegoo Saturn offering is impressively cheap and has some super interesting features. Tilt screen for print peeling, auto leveling, etc. I don't own one but they look super interesting.
no need to worry about it because this printer was probably not built or priced with your audience in mind. there is an astronomical difference between industry where cost per part matters, and hobbyists who want to print miniatures. hope it helps!
I run a jewellery factory with 500$ printers
@@Johnne009 What printer please?
Anyone have any experience with the Nexa printers? Or Epax, it’s made in the USA.
Does it take a screen protector? Typically the FEP sheet can damage and destroy the screen.
How is this any competition to the cheaper lcds that print equal if not better quality and have better customer service?
I would definitely like to see a Saturn 4 ultra VS FormLabs 4.
Exactly, while been almost 10 times cheaper
Under magnification, it would be interesting which has better surface quality but to the naked eye I'd bet they would be indistinguishable. I had some samples done on a Form 3 and put them up against my Phrozen Sonic Mini 4K and there was absolutely nothing in it, and I'd even go as far as to say the SM4K prints had a smoother surface finish. I put that down to anti-aliasing, which the Form 3 cant do with its laser light engine.
12k VS 4k 🤣
My labs (dental) have somes Formlabs, I buy one Creality CL89 to see the differences when scanning two test models printed on each machine ... Same results.
So... We have sold all the formlabs 3B to take somes Creality and Saturn.
I work in a dental lab using the Form 3+. Unfortunately it's not my favorite. I'm glad this new one has gone to LCD. Still unfortunate it's closed source and the micron resolution is still not great compared to cheap hobby printers. Id pass on all the automation and save money with an Elegoo or something. Resin tanks are pricey too.
Can’t you buy the formlabs resin and use it in a Saturn if you wanted?
So I had a FormLab 3+ for 3 years and it froze up. Instead of returning it for repair I decided to go to a cheaper resin based printer. Because the FormLab was my first resin printer I had no idea that the resins for other cheaper printer had a horrible fumes with a horrible smell. To the point that I had to have multiple filters, rig up an exhaust system. etc.
The question:
Formlabs has gone from an SLA based printer to an LED based printer. Does the resign have a bad smell and strong fumes, or is it the same as the Form 3+ resign?
Uses the same resins as the form3
Formlabs resins are just as toxic, you just don't smell it. You can get odorless resins for hobbyist printers but realistically not being able smell harmful fumes is more of a detriment than a bonus.
I'd say you just purchased a smelly resin. I haven't noticed a strong smell from any of the resins I use.
@@joeargyle Your talking about the form 4 resins, right? Formlabs changed to an LED based system. My previous Anycubic LED based system has very smelly resins with lots of fumes and I just wanted to make sure that the newer resins from Formlabs are not the same before I spend almost 5k for the printer.
@@TheSlurton No, I'm speaking of resin made for LED systems. I primarily use Siraya tech fast & blu resins. They smell different than the formlabs resin but I wouldn't say it's worse or stronger. I really only notice a smell when opening the bottle or vat cover.
As others have mentioned the smell doesn't necessarily indicate increased off-gassing. You may not smell anything in a room full of fumes. Best practice is to print in a well ventilated area. I also like to use vat covers when the machine is not in use.
I have heard that the Anycubic resin does have an unusually strong smell.
Looking at the side-by-side comparisons, I thought the Form 3+ looked better than the Form 4 every time. Yeah, the Form 4 was "sharper" but also had WAY more nasty layer artifacts, whereas the Form 3+ always had a much finer, smoother texture.
Agree and this is a deal breaker. It's like they forgot to turn on anti-aliasing, or worse, they haven't even implemented it.
So they got back to the form 2 vat-wiper design and replaced the laser with LCD. I think these are good design decisions that they should have made on the form 3.
But most of all, there are now less components, this should cost less, not more... Even accounting for inflation.
46:55 Looking forward to that follow-up video!
I'd like to know how it compares with other printers. I hope some bloggers can help with a horizontal evaluation, especially to understand the differences compared to Heygears' Reflex.
I wanna know when Adam is going to get one of those bipedal RC Disney StarWars droids.
42:22 How do you upgrade that LCD ???
I have complained a hundred times on the Form 3L mixer decoupling. Looks like the idea of magnetic coupling isn't working anyway so they come back to mechanical drive.
PS: I have been using Form 2 and 3L for more than 4 years, and would be optimistic on the new Form 4. But if anyone claim to be serious on industry and engineering applications, one needs to be serious on the product and support. I am glad that they realized the issues user reported, but it should be better that they tested by themselves.
I rarely have issues with decoupling on my 3+ and most of the time when it does it hit something stuck to the plate and it shouldnt print anyway
@@Mika_Returna_Enthusiast I bet you never use Engineering resins for work. I have printed over 100 part in the past year for coil insulation on high voltage high frequency transformers and inductors, and I was the one proposing to buy Form 3L for our institute. I have tried first on High Temp, failed more than 10 times on almost every print. They resent 4~5 resin tank replacement and none worked. Finally they said: why don't you try Rigid 10K? Fine, the printer can print well, and actually the material has better property. But since then, the mixer never works properly. If you think that I myself could mess up, but I tried everything the support team advised, and even replacing the mixer arm wont work. I have been working on the printer later this afternoon but now i have to end the print as the mixer check fail every wipe in the mid refilling.
@@gaozihan4 I also had issues with High Temp and Rigid10k. Here is what I do before I use them. I put on gloves. I take the tank with resin inside and heat it for 10s with a hairdryer. Then I take the arm and manually move it like 50-70x back and forth until it moves smoothly. Then I put the tank inside the machine and I start the print right away.
@@KRredMe Makes perfect sense to me, thanks a lot, and that should mean the viscoucity is too high. Actually every time when its initial fill finished I use syringe to remove ~300 mL and then the mixer should be fine. However any refill during the printing will cause the mixer wiping around, and that sucks a lot when the jobs usually take 10+ hrs and me off work. This doesn't happen too much but just recurred a lot tonight.
I have a working Form1 I use from time to time, and this while nice, it doesn't seem much better other than speed.
does it print chocolate? gr8 review Norm , cheers
The review timing, design, and feature choice of this printer of this seems odd with the M7 and Saturn 4 coming out. It seems you can get the same or better printer with said printers for allot cheaper price. Sure there’s some bells and whistles missing but it’s the LCD and UV light in these printers that do all the work. Everything else is just “handy”. Or “ cool” to have. I guess people need to decide if handy or cool features are worth the 2k. Just get Heygears Reflex or Uniformation GKTwo. Cheaper and still have cool handy features at half the cost.
Ooh fancy
how loud is it ?
Given the speed improvement, I have to say I am a little disappointed they don't offer a 4L , since their 3L is a really great build size. Maybe coming soon?
I really thought we starting off with some Primus - Jerry Was A Racecar Driver 🤣
I was confused about finding a professional printer that was very accurate in designing and printing jewelry!!
If you are only doing jewelry and nothing larger, you may want to look into DLP. For the same price or less than the Form 4, the quality will be insanely better on those DLP machines. But like I said the build volume is much, much smaller which is why the surface finish and details are so much better on those kinds of machines. Some brands to look at: Kudo3D, Solus(Reify3D), Envisiontec and Asiga.
I had some samples done on the Solus Pro and the results are mindblowing. Just insane detail. You may need to buy pre-owned if on a budget. Just make sure its a resonable new machine 2020 or later build. Hope this helps!
This is a really bad printer for jewelry, it's pretty much the opposite of what you want. DLP mSLA is the proffered technology for jewellery definatly not LCD mSLA.
Looking at the comparing pictures of the bust. The 4 does look sharper seeing it in the eyes and teeth. But the layer artifacting is way worse around the cheeks and head. All honestly as a 3 owner. Wish they kept with SLA. Natural evolution of SLA being SLS. but honestly looks like a downgrade moving to LCD.
At this price point we expect top down msla..
Formlabs customer service sure handles it when the resin reservoir cracks due to defect, dumping resin all over the internal components and on the floor. They tell you to shell out $10k to buy a new one.
I can't imagine my community college will justify spending that much to buy ANOTHER unreliable Formlabs product that might have even more disastrous defects. Lesson learned: Those tuition and tax dollars will be spent elsewhere to serve our students.
This. Formlabs has garbage support compared to the "Cheap" alternatives coming from China. All the Chinese companies seem to do a much better job when it comes to support.
@@BoDoesStuff Exactly My creality Halot Mage front lcd was defective from factory and died after 2 prints. Creality sent me a new unit over night and requested me send the old lcd back in a pre paid box so they could see what failed on it. I currently have 2 Form 2, 2 Form 3, and 2 Form3L in my lab and if it wasnt for our IT crap I would have a Lab of Saturns or Halot Mages.
Why is formlab's new "open materials license" so expensive? It's apparently an optional purchase that is the price of the entire machine. I know formlabs wants to keep their customers in their ecosystem, but I was always under the impression that the reason they didn't allow for 3rd party materials was because of how finely tuned their print settings were and needed to be. But now it's just a like a jailbreak fee to be able to access the proper slicer settings in Preform or something?
Yeah I'll pass, bought a GKtwo after watching their attaboy revele yesterday, wasn't impressed
The official resin printer of Corncob TV.
Bring back the podcast! ✊
If it does not say the price...then its out of reach for the hobbyist
What an expensive piece of shit!! Just copied cheap Chinese technology and still 6s curing time hahahah what a joke, a Saturn is less than 2s…….
As someone that leans toward mechanically usable 3d printing, I have not been impressed by resin due to the weak structure of the resin. They are amazing at detail but weak in strength. I mostly see these used for making static objects like statues. I'm not sure much has changed in the last few years but would be interested in hearing from others. I typically print in PETG, Nylon, PC and carbon fiber variants on my Bambu.
I think you would be impressed at resin if you looked at formlabs engineering grade resin. You will find them to have higher strength and heat deflection than any of the Bambu filaments. I have no choice but to use Formlabs printers for some of my parts because my X1C can't print anything comparable. Believe me i wouldn't use Formlabs resin unless it was completely necessary because of the cost.
@@adamdaniels6658 Thanks!
For mechanical applications I'd highly recommend looking up Jan Mrázek's resin printing blog.
It covers how to adress several potential causes of dimensional inaccuracy . Since most resin printers are used for miniatures that only need to look pretty, these issues usually aren't discussed enough.
In particular, he article about siraya fast mecha is interesting, since it tests a 3d printed gearbox, which requires both mechanical strength and wear resistance. Gearboxes printed with SLS printers and cast with two part polyurethane resin are used as benchmarks to contrast the resin print against.
Also CNC kitchen's recent video on post curing resins gives a good idea of the properties of engineering-grade resins, and how they compare to filament.
Is carbon fiber worth it? I watched a guy print several parts out of various materials and the carbon fiber was one of the easiest to break.
Prusa polycarbonate-carbon fiber is like a rock and it far easier to print than straight polycarbonate.
Separate question: On the form 3+ I used alcohol to rise my prints. I could then take the used dirty alcohol and put it i the sun or under a UV light and the resin would solidify in the bottom leaving me with clean alcohol that I could re-use.
Does the resin from the Form 4 act in the same way?
Uses same materials as 3 plus more due to addition of heat.
I miss my 3D Systems SLA5000. Good old days, like printing money.
My takeaway from this is that Form Labs has not learned anything. They took something simple, complicated it, then made it expensive. Hard pass on this one.
Amazing. 4k bucks for a 4K LCD in 2024. Thanks, but no thanks
I’m sorry I’m going to go with the gk2 way over this or the new elegoo printer
I just wanted to point out that when you mentioned the price of the Form 3+, you were talking about it's current price. The Form 4 is actually debuting at a significantly lower price point than the Form 3 did just 3 years ago. Our first Form 3 was about $5500.
39:40 Form 3 looks better than the Form 4 in my opinion.
Finaly a MSLA-printer with a much higher light output on LCD, that might be catch up to DLP when it comes to speed 👏.
Now we need a 385nm option, and I need a L-version with 300mm in Z at least.
Oh wait.... it's still a closed system 😳 and we cannot use those great resins from BASF, Loctite an other brand to put this printer into our production line.
Sorry Formlabs 🤷🏻♂️!
What are some good options for small production run quality MSLA that you'd recommend? Some that can take those other commercial resins
@@user-it7kg3pm4q I have an Elegoo Mars 3 running we modified with a 385nm LED. Needed a bit of trial & Error but finally it is working. Don't know how ling the LCD will last, but we will see. The output in mw is lower as the original 405nm LED but we can do detailed clear resin prints with minimal layer thickness of 25 micron on it.
@@evanw7867Depends on your application. We use a few Elegoo printers (Saturn 3 Ultra and Mars 3) and one Uniformation GKTwo for printing serial parts in BASF EL4000, RG1100 and Loctite IND406. Those printers completely replaced our extensive DLP printers for those applications.
If one of the LCD printers falls out we get a new one within 1-2 workdays for fraction of the costs a technican in case we have an issue wuth our professional printers.
My recommendation at this moment: GKTwo
If you print smaller parts, its better to have 2-3 smaller printers as one big printer.
As impressive as this may seem but the latest Elegoo resin printer blows this out of the water.
Having to pay that much for the open materials system is really unfortunate. It sounded like Formlabs was really going to try and take the market and give people what they want, but ~$6 - 8k to buy a lifetime license for "open materials" doesn't sound very open to me.
It's a shame that Carbon3D went commercial with their CLIP technology. Resin printing would be miles ahead by now with continuous light processing
Cool
Anyone here can comment on resin printer fumes and if any of it has improved over the years, such as the low fume resins?
I'd love the quality of any resin printer but the fumes have always been a deterrent. That, and the lack of space for washing and curing prints.
The form 4 actually has a vent at the back to attach a vacuum for ventilation.
I want a resin printer for work....but im afraid ill just be giving myself more work, others wont dive into the hardware and maintain it so it would come down to me...which yeah....just gives me more work
My Form 2 has basically been replaced by my Phrozen and with this being MSLA there's even less reason to buy a Formlabs printer at this price. You could buy multiple cheaper MSLA printers that you can use any resin in for the price of the Form 4 so even if it's faster, it's not fast enough.
This has roughly the same features and capability of my commercial machine from 2018, that I replaced last year as the proprietary LCDs were no longer produced. For 4k, it's adequate for mechanical parts but trading a lot of resolution for fine detail. I regularly get 1.6-1.8 million layers out of my LCDs, it's not That uncommon.
Then there's the price... $4500?! There's a Huge gap that Formlabs has to catch up to get me anywhere interested in this printer for serious users.
I've been comparing standard MSLA with the Form 4 and it's interesting:
- Elegoo says 2000 hours per LCD. At 4 second exposure thats 1.8 million exposures
- Formlabs saying 1 million exposures is really good lifetime for their LCD
- The 16mw/cm2 is the biggest difference between this and something like the Saturn Ultra 4. No data on what consumer MLSA has but it seems to be 3-8mw/cm2. Guess they need the power intensity to use their existing library of resins
@@samhillier4427 I have light data somewhere on quite a few of the Chinesium machines, and most of them are right where you pointed out (then again, most Chinesium printers are essentially parts bin machines with the exact same internals and slightly deviated external cladding). Despite some validity to getting better resolution through smaller masking pixels for the exposed area, the light source and lens system on resin printers is a hugely overlooked component that most users probably have little knowledge on what's actually occuring with the process and why it's important. I'm sure you do based on your answers, but I would take a confident swing that a good 95% of resin printer users believe the light is coming out of the LCD screen itself, when in reality it's almost a polar opposite. In reality, the LCD is (highly) Limiting the amount of light passing through to about 4% of what is transmitted by the UV system, which is why having a robust light matrix and efficient lens system is rather critical to curing effectiveness. More light that's efficiently getting to your resin vat (and the resin itself with how much initiator is in the formula) equals how fast you can cure individual layers. That commercial machine I replaced last year had one of, if not the finest, collimated lens system I've seen to date, and I'd still be using it had the LCDs not been proprietary. That one machine easily had 4 million layers on it over the five years it was in service.
The strength of this equipment is that it has no other advantages other than being an industrial LCD printer that presents a factory setting consisting of equipment + dedicated UV resin. Competitors are selling for around $500 with 14K specifications. It seems like there needs to be a reasonable reason to pay a price 9 times higher. FormLab's old-fashioned marketing reminds me of when Apple adopted Intel CPUs. Galvanic SLA has only proven to be outdated and four times slower. Form 4's speed is not great, nor are its market-leading specifications and performance.
still have layer line!! if they keep using same stacking layering method? don't change fundamental? 4k,8k,16k shit is lame.
I'll pass right off the bat No printer is worth 4500 no matter what it does. Unless it can finish a project in 5 mins even 2000 is pushing a limit for the parts they put in them just my opinion. Why is the top bed so small? Does it have a heater built in?
How much it cost? this is for a company level, not for a DIY person.
$4499 in the US!
Company level here, not for us either. This is DOA at this pricing and tech.
overly complicated vat, small build volume, i run 20 anycubic M3 maxes and they are work horses
Me after watching this review: Real kudos to Anycubic, Phrozen and Elegoo for paving the way forward when it comes to economically viable MSLA printing.
That LED array is sexy af
So I get the idea, this is a commercial grade resin 3d printer. Though what about this actually makes it commercial grade? I get the idea that the resins are for more durable prints, but you can use those resins on other printers I would imagine? Maybe not? Are the parts supposed to last longer I guess, though not seeing what parts those are since the parts that are explained seem to wear basically the same as other options out there. I'm sure there's something I'm missing, maybe it's support? Those internet connected features for monitor print fleets I guess? Just for that price the hardware doesn't seem any different than the higher end of the hobbyist market (and lesser in resolution, though yeah more than 4k isn't necessarily needed for many things) though again maybe I'm missing something. FDM printers it feels like a more commercial grade vs cheaper grade makes a lot of sense, more moving parts that move much faster that can create more inaccuracies and wear. Though what makes this thing say any better than a Phrozen?
It really feels like the resin 3d printer market is super saturated and even the cheaper options are getting better and better and it's really hard for products to differentiate themselves.
You're not missing anything. Formlabs was just early to market & got used to charging a premium. If you look at their reliability record, Form machines don't seem to be more reliable than hobby grade machines. Save your money and look elsewhere. There are some very well made machines on the market.
The hardware is massively different to a consumer printer. Did you even watch the video?
I have a shop with 2 Form 3+ and 3 Form 3L. I've had them for 9 months and in that time, these printers have been running lights out pretty much 24/7. No way would I trust that to any Amazon special Uranus or whatever printer. I've had to engage Formlabs support at times and it's top notch. Based out of Boston with support reps in other areas within the U.S.
The butt-hurt complaints from the comments are from people who aren't running a business and instead get sad because their d&d figurines won't print. Printing in resin requires discipline. The biggest problems I've seen where people use resin printers is their carelessness. It doesn't take much to end up with the whole area ending up as a sticky mess. Formlabs are some of the cleanest resin printers you can get.
@@warwicksworkshop9511 I did and nearly everything they mentioned was pretty standard to the consumer printers out there. If anything they've "upgraded" to the same systems consumer printers were using. The only thing I saw that "might" be different is the hex based lighting, but then again I haven't seen a breakdown of other printers backlighting system for their LCD systems and haven't seen a side by side etc that suggests there's any real benefit other than marketing jargon. If it was so obvious clearly you can list things that are different than the countless other LCD 3d printers out there.
@@TheBeddoeFamily There are plenty of videos of people running print farms with other brands. Usually not the cheapest resin printers out there, but the higher end of the consumer market like Phrozen and the higher end models of some other places. Plenty of 24/7 print farms that seem to use other printers just fine.
Now the support thing I can get. Commercial grade support vs consumer support is a different beast and depending on the willingness to invest cost into self supporting from a business that's a fair calculation to consider.
What I don't see even in a fairly technical breakdown like this is objective hardware benefits. Again with FDM printers you can see it, people using Prusa and Bambulabs won't touch the cheap ones for print farms often because of high mobility wear parts. The major wear item on any LCD is the LCD screen, which for this Form 4 they oddly list in layers, saying 1 million layers. Despite all other measurements of a LCD lifespan I've seen from others is in print hours and even their previous non LCD printers they listed their lifespan in print hours (so it feels obvious they want to feel different than all the other LCD printers out there despite not being different). Looking at other printers like the Phrozen Mighty or Mini 8k I see estimates for LCD lifespan being about 2,000 hours, with the exposure time of just under 4 seconds (but rounding up, obviously that depends on what you print and what settings you use, you can go even lower) that comes out to about 1.8 million. Which the Form 4 actual range I think is something like 800k-1.6 million or something like that. So the LCD screen provided doesn't seem to be any longer wear.
Again maybe I'm missing something but as far as I can tell you're paying the extra price for the better support. Which may be worth it for many use cases.
I don't disagree with your point about printing in resin requiring discipline. It's very easy to screw up your prints on any 3d printer if you don't follow the proper steps. Though that's not the point I'm digging into. The hardware mentioned in this video didn't seem commercial grade in any way, though I'm open to people pointing out something that was.
Given that cheaper “hobbyist” printers have a higher resolution and similar full bed print speeds, why would anyone pay this much?
I like how The form labs guy spends almost 5 minutes talking about their amazing new concept of MSLA :-)
You mean when he was asked by Norm in an interview setting to discuss the new printing technology? Yes. I suppose he did spend a few minutes answering the question he was asked...
The new Elegoo Saturn 4 series does everything the Formlabs printers can do for literally a 1/10th of the cost.
The Ultra version with ACF film is probably even faster than the Form 4.
It is pricey , But the release mechanism is much better, thus you get less print failures and you can print much more delicate and complex geometries easier, at least this was the case with the last generation. Still I agree that it seems that the gap between consumer level mSLA and this prosumer level machine is decreasing.
I use the Form 3 almost daily, and the user friendliness of Formlabs ecosystem is pretty much the selling point. Ease of resin changes, their easy release buildplate design, online controls, & their slicing software is unmatched. (Cost of resin cartridges is pretty rough though). Elegoo and others are definitely a far better value for most. The price difference is becoming harder and harder to justify with a Formlabs, but they definitely are still the best. At least until Elegoo can provide a better NON-subscription slicer than Chitubox & Lychee.
@@Turbo.M777 Who cares if it's subscription? If you're even considering a Formlabs the price of any slicer subscription will be inconsequential.
@@JorenMathews Because it’s an annoyance. Sell me the product with all I need to use it up front. Making people continually pay monthly for subscriptions to use the items they already paid for (or they become paperweight) is a scummy business model. Thats one reason I like Formlabs. They don’t play that game like many others.
LOL that raspberry pi
What can you practically do with these other than make toys you won't sell?
If you can't think of anything, it's not for you.
So formlabs printers became like every other Chinese resin printer ever?
How bad do these smell? No one ever discusses that aspect.
We use Form 3's at work and it's noticeable, but not offensive. Others have commented cheaper resins smell quite strong.
So soon they will depricate the old resin tanks and my form 3 will become useless.
sounds like most of the commenters "Formed" the same opinion.
$4500 to $8699!? Gtfoh I would rather pay someone to build me a few Voron’s before blowing money on this
Proprietary as heck and demanding you only their resin unless you pay them literally more than the price of the printer to unlock it makes this such a bad deal.
I feel like the customers for this are so niche and then everyone else is a achool administrator that didnt know better.
Their higher end models I see fitting in business but this seems a pretty poor value to me.
I also hear nothing but bad things about reliability or support. I will respect the ux if you ignore price seems great.... while it works..
Form is like Ultimaker. They only survive just because some people still think that buying an overpriced machine will give them the best quality… 😔
Formlabs is a real hard no from me...
Having used resin printers for years now, I dont see anything revolutionary here, Formlabs playing catchup making a boutique resin printer for smart suited offices. Over price and underperforming compared to cheaper printers costing 1/8th the price.
they claim 50nM is a sweet spot. But having used both 50nM and 20nM printers. I can tell you 20nM is shockingly good quality, requires next to zero post processing.
Their wiper is also totally unnecessary. The very act of the build plate raising and dropping keeps the resin mixed. And typically the resin wont settle in the time of an average print.
They also DRM their resin. This is a big nono.
So they've joined the rest of the reasonably priced MSLA printers out there by lighting up a whole area, these guys re-invented the wheel for no reason. The print results off this printer compared to Elegoos new Saturn 4 ultra I'm willing to bet will be damn near identical. Biggest selling feature though, the Saturn 4 is like 1/10th the cost these guys want for a prettier packaged printer.
Nothing to say 'WOW' about, to be honest. 50nm in 2024? for 4.5K$.. Really?... there are at least few more amazing models on market, printing ~20nm superfast and been almost x10 times cheaper.. Why to compare its speed with 2 yo Form 3? Compare it with Saturn 3 Ultra, or 4 Ultra. 😂
because Saturn was not made as a printer for industry, nor is it industry level when it comes to reliability and materials
@@DarkKitty-pw1qj nah... those conventions.. they don’t matter when in fact a cheaper device has more possibilities. speaking of the industry, printing on a Phrozen printer with castable resin from Bluecast, which is cheaper, I get a higher quality result than on a printer made specially for the jewelry industry (Solidscape), with their branded resin. its at jewelry studio, its fast and I get at least same or better result.
@vladterra7353 Good for you, but industry often invest in industry machines. formlabs' material library is what makes it one of the dominating desktop SLA printers for industry. generic materials do not fit all engineering demands, and especially don't fit medical needs either. generic ABS like resin and biocompatible material is not enough. glad that you have a printer that fits in your budget, but when you work for a bigger business its less about the cost to purchase one unit and more about cost per part. just like any other high grade industry tools
@@DarkKitty-pw1qj Clearly he doesn't need advanced materials. It's likely many others don't either. It's literally the only reason to buy this machine. Having owned two Formlabs machines I can tell you they aren't necessarily more reliable than the "hobbyist" grade machines. In some cases the build quality is surprisingly comparable. My most reliable machine is an old Epax X1 4K. It's small, no bells and whistles, but it's built like a tank. That thing has been running nearly every day for years without issue. I don't dislike Formlabs, but It's hard to justify the cost at this point with so many excellent alternatives on the market.
@@DarkKitty-pw1qj I'm not talking from all possible perspectives, but from perspective of a jeweler. Surely, if we move into medical sphere, it will be a bit different story..
5k just the printer 8 the full package... i will pass LOL
Just bought a Saturn 4
While I'm generally pleased with the print quality of my Form³ - Considering the alternatives _now_ available in the market - I'd no longer buy a Formlabs machine.
Besides being so fuckin' slow ( which they've _now_ addressed with the Form⁴ ) shits just too darn expensive... Back then 3'300.- for the Machine ( Form⁴ now almost 5'000.- ), 160.- for a Tank, 200.- on average for 1l of Resin when you can seemingly get 3D Prints of essentially identical quality out of MSLA 3D Printers and Resin costing a *_fraction_* of what the Formlabs Systems cost.
Literally the only thing that might convince me to do otherwise were if they at least slashed the price for the Resin to like half of what they currently cost - which is _still_ double what the competition asks for their resins!
I think the only reason people will buy this printer is to have access to all of Formlabs engineering grade resins. If you're only printing figurines then I agree there is no reason to buy a Formlabs printer over a cheaper alternative. That is my only reason for owning a Formlabs printer anyway.
The only thing this really seems to be worth it for is the speed. The real question is how fast will other resin printers catch up for a much, much lower price point?
This is not a toy or a hobby machine so not comparable to those.
The Saturn 4 Ultra is already faster and higher resolution. There’s no catching up needed.
@@SteinErikDahle Yeah it's like comparing apples to oranges, or 4K printers to 12K printers. I'd have been extremely interested in a professional grade high resolution MSLA printer, but those "toy" machines do everything I need at the moment. 4K LCD is an absolute joke in 2024 for MSLA.
Only unique innovations here seem to be:
- 16mw/cm2 light intensity (way higher than typical MSLA)
- that honeycomb like release texture on the LCD
I bet in 12 months Elegoo and Anycubic will have their own version of that texture to reduce peel forces
@@samhillier4427 phrozen perhaps, elegoo and anycubic make low quality machines though (only exception being the m3 premium) so they aren't compariable.
mSLA is a big no-no from me, DLP only or bust
I to also like to watch someone talk about a machine that no one will buy as a normal consumer because it is over prices for the price it takes to actually make it. I bet you they pay china to make it for $200 and they sell it for $4,500. Yes the students built it in America first but now they have them all manufactured in china I'll pay $4,500 if you have it built in America.
Edit: I just saw a decent street bike for $4,700 650cc. Also did a quick search and found a 2012 jeep 180,000 miles for $4,900 used car lot Both these items have enough material to make 10 of these things. These people are insane.
the light engine alone will cost more than 200 to make, the reason new consumer grade pritners are using COB leds is that cheap matrix light engines have crap lenses that lead to awful awful uv uniformity, I'm talking like 70%, consumer COB LED printers are like 90-95%. This printer needs to work with their existing resins that need high UV intensity though so they couldn't use a COB LED as they aren't bright enough so they used a matrix light engine but unlike cheap consumer ones they actually made a custom light engine with custom lenses so it shouldn't have the issues of cheap consumer grade ones, those custom lesnes cost a fair ammount to produce which is why it's not done in the consumer space
$7000-$9000, and it's MSLA... The whole thing that was a slight appeal about form printers was it being laser and having way higher res than MSLA printers lol, what the fuck.
At least this means, hopefully, we'll see specs now to use their engineering grade resins on MSLA with official stats, because they have some super cool material.
4K led screen🤣
Goofy Sheep 😂 I love printer name
Unless you absolutely need the properties of a formlabs resin there is no reason to purchase this machine. It's a nice machine but so many unnecessary "features". They claim their big advantage is a collimated light source. Nearly all msla machines have a collimated light source these days. The 50um resolution is far behind the competition. There are so many machines on the market capable of comparable (or likely better) prints at a fraction of the cost. The Formlabs machines were early leaders, I still love their slicer/software but everyone has caught up or surpassed them. There is nothing innovative about this machine. They're grasping at straws to justify the cost. They're a bit out of touch.