DANGEROUS GAME LOADS?! 30-30 Winchester Barnes Pioneer 190gr Original Flat Nose Ammo Test
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- čas přidán 15. 07. 2024
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In this video we’re going to do a ballistics gel test and review of the following hunting ammunition fired from the following test rifle:
- 30-30 Winchester Barnes Pioneer 190gr Original Flat Nose
- Lever action Glenfield 30A (Marlin 336) chambered in 30-30 Winchester with a 20 inch barrel
All shots are fired from a distance of 100 yards so as to encompass the majority of common real world hunting scenarios.
I will be shooting into 10% ballistics gel from www.clearballistics.com that has been calibrated to meet the FBI ballistics testing protocol.
While ballistics gel isn’t an exact proxy for big game, small game, predators or defensive situations, it does provide a repeatable medium through which to test various bullets and ammunitions against each other.
With each type of ammo tested I collect data on bullet penetration depth, bullet weight retention, bullet expansion and muzzle velocity.
For reference, bullet expansion is measured at the widest expanded point using a calibrated Frankford Arsenal Digital Caliper.
Bullet weight is measured using a calibrated Frankford Arsenal Digital Scale after having removed as much ballistics gel as possible from the expanded bullets.
Bullet velocity is measured using a ProChronoPal chronograph set approximately 7-10’ from the shooting bench, depending on the cartridge and muzzle blast.
I am fully aware that a chronograph measuring bullet velocity from 10’ away from the muzzle is going to register a slower velocity than if velocity were measured directly at the muzzle, but that difference is going to be so small as to be all but irrelevant in regards to comparison of actual measured velocity versus factory stated velocity.
My goal with these ballistics gel tests is to provide hunters like you and I with the most objective information possible to help us make the best choice for our particular hunting situation.
The results of these tests are my own and I cannot guarantee the same or similar performance on your part. The views and opinions expressed in this video are solely my own.
All videos are filmed in a safe and controlled environment on a private range with all applicable safety precautions by a trained professional. - Zábava
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I have a 35 marlin , I use 200 grain brush busters Winchester makes them, that's a real heavy load nothing stops these rounds they dont deflect off sticks or brush, bullet stays true. Its been kind of tough just finding ammo for the 35 ,everyone has the 30-30, just need to look when you find them by them.
My Arapaho buddies in Wyoming dominate elk, moose, and bear (grizzlies and black) with 30-30, and they do it with simple Remington Core-Lokt! This stuff would likely extend their ranges further.
RCBS makes a mould that casts a 180 grain flat point bullet that works out to 190 grains with gas ✔️ and lube. It can be driven at about 2,000 fps. It's going to drive hard, kill anything on the North American continent, delivers good wound channels, and you can eat right up to the hole.
Old school conventional wisdom for thick skinned or heavy boned dangerous critters:
There is no replacement for high sectional density.
This has been somewhat disproven in the last thirty years because of advances in projectile design, but SD of .300 and above at 2200 fps used to be the gold standard for thick skinned African game.
That little pill is .286 SD at around 2000 fps.
Numbers don't lie, that is a real game changer for the little carbine with a factory load.
I used to cast the old Lyman 311644, 190gr flat nose with a 40gr pure lead nose for my 30-30.
We only pushed it to 1800-1850 fps out of my 94, but it whistled through hogs and black bear like a hot knife through butter.
This was one of the best reviews I have seen on CZcams by the way!
Glad to be of service! It’s definitely a great load, glad it’s available
Isn’t most manufacturers stated velocities usually higher than what you find in reality? Wonder if shooting through a chronograph indoors vs outdoors makes any difference? If they can make a spire point 200 grain 30-06 you would think they could make a 200 grain soft point 30/30. 🤷🏻♂️
Velocities are at the muzzle no? What about 50 yrds? 75 yrds?
One yard of penetration is good
Insane penetration!!!! This turns the 30/30 into a completely different beast within 100 yards. The ultimate large boar and deer rifle. Great video Mason and thanks for sharing! 🙏
Glad you enjoyed!
Even potential bear encounter (not hunting).
I’m sold with my Blacktail in deep cover. My shots have always been less than 100 yds.
A better different beast is actually a 200 grain 35 Remington
@@anthonymedeck7081~ ~…or in a non-lever rifle a 35 Whelen.
It looks interesting. But if we limit range to 100yds
I think I rather have a 44mag with 270gr-3oogr bullets.
From my use of them both under 100yds the 44 for me has done a better job
Buffalo Bore has a 190gr . Hawk bullet that looks good for most of those big things with teeth and claws. Great videos Bro, I enjoy the 30/30.
Agree, very expensive for the BB ammo.
We asked, he delivered. What a legend
💯
in alaska we hunt moose and bear with regular old cup and core corelokts no problem
The original load for the old .303 Savage round developed in 1895, the same year as the .30-30. The .303 used a 190 grain bullet and the original 30-30 was a 160 grain bullet. Many old timers of the day swore that the .303 wiith the 190 grain bullet was a much better killer, especially for very large game. Loaded with bullets of equal weight the .303 and the .30-30 are ballistic twins. The old Savage 99 in .303 Savage is a awesome old gun.
I have 2 303, bo.ts ,nice old iron.
Yep. That 190 grain bullet at about 2,000 fps. gained a reputation as a real killer inside 100 yards.
I like the 170 gr Partition for this purpose. You can drive it to 2250 in a 336.
Some First Nations people in Alaska and Canada have been hunting the large bears for years with 30-30. This ammo should be a step up.
I reloaded some of their 190 bullets last year and took two wild hogs and two buck awesome bullets I'll have to check them out
Love the videos man. The loads that you test are all relevant. You're such a resource for the budget hunter and shooter.
Glad to be of service!!
The buffalo bore 190 grain 30-30 is another round worth looking into. Uses a 190 garin hawk bullet, theres a video here on yiutube if a man dropping a giant bull moose in its tracks at 115 yards using the same round
That ammo was mentioned. And also that it's $80 a box! So that's why it won't be tested on this channel. And that's practical since none of us will be paying that.
So glad to see some 190 available again. In the 80’s - 90’s, I used 190 exclusively. The 10 grain extra makes a huge difference in whitetail hunting.
I haven’t seen any 190 in years, thanks for the vid, gotta get me some.
Perfect timing for this cartridge.
Just have to find it now.
Thanks
Glad to be of service!
Many firearm enthusiasts and experts share their experiences and conduct tests on various types of ammunition, providing insights into factors such as accuracy, velocity, and terminal performance.
My 24 inch Thompson center contender should love this stuff
Very good point concerning the twist rate. Excellent work and testing protocol. TY
If you take your weakest performing shot at 1864fps and calculate its energy you get 1466ftlb. That exceeded most 44mag performance. Add to that 36 inches of penetration and you are in good shape for dangerous game.
The only thing I’d add to your test is a 2x12 sandwiched between two heavy dinner plates in front of the gel block to simulate bone.
Once again a nicely done vid. Keep’um coming.
I agree. Something to simulate tough hide and bones in front of the gel blocks would be interesting to see. I was thinking was thinking cowhide over a 2” concrete stepping stone. Not sure what bear skull or shoulder equivalent would be.
I use a steel electrical box cover. Much harder than wood but once the bullet is through, its through. Bullets dont usually penetrate bone, like they would have to in a thick piece of wood, they break and shatter them. I agree that you should use some sort of medium, though, to simulate a bone before it enters a gel block!
190gr 30-30 is a beast.
Smart, cautious, and intelligently done.
best
Bruce Peek
holyyyyy crap a 190 grain 30 30 bullet?!?! 😳🤯🤯
Thanks for the reviews! Love the .30-30 videos; I have the same rifle and appreciate the different bullet tests. I use mine for white tailed deer, and usually run with the 160gr LeverEvolution, but if my wife and I ever get our moose licences in the same year, this 190gr Barnes would definitely be an option out to 100 yards or so for one of us to use while the other has my .270. 👍🏼
Great video. Here in western Canada at Cabelas that ammo is $75 a box w/ tax $78.75. A little too pricey for me but that is great penetration. We do hunt moose and elk with 170gr and this ammo is also not intended for more than 150yds anyway. Which I think is still stretching it
Wow that is insane penetration for the old 30-30! That would absolutely deck an elk or moose inside of 100 yards.
Moose and elk have been getting dropped with the old 150 and 170 grn bullets in the old 30-30 since the beginning of the cartridge don't see the need for these high priced bullets
@@Jeff-sl8xz Yeah no doubt it will drop moose and elk within it’s range even with standard bullets. Some of these bullets like these might be just a little extra insurance I would imagine.
I have a few 170 grain Remington Hollowpoint in a Green and Yellow box from the early 90s from a Winchester 94 I purchased from a gun shop in October 2020. This was the only ammunition I had to use. I had no luck finding any 30-30 Ammunition. On opening day I loaded up the Winchester with the 5 cartridges and was able to place a shot at 100 yards on a 130 pound doe. The bullet hit the shoulder and exited the opposite side. I now have Federal Blue Box 170 grain that are a flat point design. This bullet it a better performer. The deer I harvested left a golf ball exit. Plenty of penetration with expansion. My friend shot a big 8 point using 150 grain Hornady. No exit. He followed the tracks in the snow. He didn’t find blood until 75 yards. Buck ran a great distance. About 400 yards. He is now using Hornady 160 grain Leverevolution.
Well done. Thanks.
Mason thanks for testing the 190's,,, i reload this bullet and found it to be very accurate in a pre 64 model 94
I have a .303 Savage. When I would shoot Winchester 190 grain silvertips out of my Savage 99 I would get almost twice the size in expansion whenever I would pull one out of a mule deer. I have been loading my 30-30 the same way using the .303 Savage Loading data since the pressures are comparable. I cant get the 190 grains silvertips anymore so I went with the 180 grain Sierra round nose. It also expands better than your demonstration. I used wet phone books though.
Awesome video, love the avg guy doing an outstanding job/presentation
Very cool. Looks like a great heavy round.
Great video as always!! Definitely brought my interest back into my old rifles.
Now you have me wondering what you would get with a "dangerous game load" from Barnes when you're talking .35 Remington which traditionally STARTS with a 200grn SJSP that, in my experience, and that of several friends I introduced to the .35 Remington several years ago, is a serious "thumper" on critters up to healthy, adult black bear size.
it'd be really interesting to see a comparison between this and a "warmish" hand-loaded 170 grain partition, and then still a 170 A-frame (if you can find the damn things), in terms of performance on larger game like elk and moose.
Love these videos. Detailed but to the point
Thanks!! I’m glad I get to make them and provide some useful info!
Yeah. Good video. 👍👍
Great review!👍
Excellent info.
Well done, thank you.
I love Barns and another great video and thanks.
I used to use 30-30 for everything years ago. Bull elk close up, deer, bear. It was a mild and cheap rifle to feed until the event of the cov-id and latest inflation. Few years ago only $14-$16 per box. Today one is just better off to go with an lever action or some other type of 308win rifle.
I have 100% been saying the same thing. Used to get coreloks for 12 bucks. 308 has been my go to last few years based on cost and availability. I think I need to take up reloading.
Interesting. Reminds me of the old .303 Savage round, which also used a 190 grain bullet, but at 2150 fps. That's a bit more than you can get in the .30-30, since the .303 Savage has a bit more case capacity and the Savage M99 is a stronger action than the M94/336.
Just what I was going to say. The 303 Savage was considered a step up over the 30-30 in days of old. This shows why.
When I could get brass or ammo for the .303, it was a really interesting round! The struggle to find ammo made the 99 Savage rifles inexpensive, so I bought them whenever I could. I started loading 180 Hornady RN in 30-30 and using the load in a 26 Inch rifle, both Winchester and Savage, and it did pretty much everything the 303 would do, but honestly, the only game I harvested with it was a big Mulie doe in Wyoming in an Aspen grove. The 303 was a fine round, even more useful "out here's in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, loaded with 150-170 gr bullets.
@@darreldwalton8763 As it happens, Buffalo Arms has PPU .303 Savage brass in stock.
@@r.awilliams9815 Sad to say, I gave up on the round and sold out several years back. Good to know, though, and I'll pass the word on!
Yes, I own a .303 and several .30-30's and reload for both. The case capacity is almost equal, with the .30-30 holding 1 to 2 grains more powder. Loaded with equal bullet weights. They get equal performance. The Savage 99 is a superior rifle and the ability to use pointed bullets, benefits it greatly. I use pointed bullets in both the .303 and .30-30 when I use my model 99's. Even though when both rounds originated in 1895, they were both loaded with round nose bullets. I never understood why Savage loaded the .303 with a round nose bullets. For the model 99. A pointed bullet would have given it much greater performance over the .30-30.
Good option. I remember the old Barnes with extra heavy jackets and lead core. Thank you.
Glad to be of service!
It’s about time Barnes gets back to their LEAD originals! They made a heavy for 243 caliber to I remember back in the day. I don’t know if they brought that one back or not. Think it was 110 grain round nose. Hopefully they didn’t put too much of a taper on them so they are shorter and stabilize in traditional twist rates.
Wow very impressive! 😮 I will use that stuff!
Subscribed. Your doing Great with this. Keep your focus on the average hunter.
Thanks, much appreciated!
As you probably know, there are other factors at work with regard to velocity than barrel length (even though length is the most commonly referenced). For me, this is perfect expansion in this type of bullet. When bullets "over" expand, they put the breaks on and as a result, penetration suffers. Cheers!
Sounds like an attempt at approximating the old . 303 Savage load. I heard years ago that for penetration in a . 30-30, the Barnes "X", and then the later TSX 150 grain was the penetration champ. There is always a balancing act between velocity, expansion, weight and sectional density and construction type to get that desired heavy game penetration.
Awesome video,
Always liked the .30-30. this is a real game changer
Great video!
Thanks!
Not everyone posts or still utilize the 30-30WCF so thanks I still have mine which ive used for moose hunting, headshots only. Mainly I load 180gr Partition to accuracy specs for my ironsighted REM700 in '06. The ranges i choose to take headshots are up to 50 paces and anatomical knowledge prior to taking any headshots are crucial and handloaded ammo. I dont take shots further than 75 paces unless I mount my scope on QR bases. My grandfather taught me so headshots only was his standard along with overlapping groups @150yds handloaded Partition ammo only.
Thanks for the vids man. No bs talk just work! Great leather too bud.. Florence , Mt. -
Awesome video 👍
Glad to be of service!
Man. That’s impressive for a 30-30. I still use a Winchester 1894 for deer hunting. May try these for elk. 😆
Look at the 30-30 160 grain Hornady LEVERevolution very high performance ammo for Elk.
My dad has so many bull moose notches on of his 30-30 pretty impressive
30 30 lever is awsome my go to caliber
That's some impressive performance right there.
Absolutely
Perfect.
Buffalo Bore, 190 grain with a Hawk hard cast bullet. Made for bear and a very deep penetrator. Barnes is always a terrific product performing well for what it was designed to do. These would be great for elk or black bear.
excellent video! that looks like a great load for close range elk and black bear. I've seen a video where a guy shoots a moose with a 30-30 and the federal 170gr nosler partition load and the moose does a back flip and is dead right there! i couldn't believe it. Everything is shot placement but bullet weight and construction must match the game also, thanks Mason. Just as a suggestion i think it would help to also state standard deviation for loads, thank you!
Elmer Keith would be proud
awesome
That would be a great round for big Black Bear. In the fall the big ones are so fat and furry makes it hard to see where that shoulder bone is at some angles. I would like to see you get a few beef bones from a butcher and put a few bullets through heavy bone and see the results. I don't see anyone else doing that test on CZcams. Great job as always on your video and editing.
Never had an issue w cup and core from a 30-30 150 it works maybe that nosler 170 would be nice but the 160 Hornady ftx filled the bill for whitetail
Barnes Bullets in Nephi, UT is at 5,260 feet in elevation (thin air), that may account for the higher velocities on the box versus your experience.
150gr and 170gr core lokt penatrate 28 inches that's enough for me but very interesting information thanks.
Thoroughly enjoy your ease and succinctness. Thanks. Have you tested the Hornady160 FTX
I have a 1945 30-30 i got from my father, and i found lever revaluation, at 2400 feet per second and its reasonable
Would like to see a test of the PPU 150gr SP 30-30. Great videos!
Your doing GREAT. I will be ordering a cavalry flap holster for a Ruger 45LC 7 1/2".........
Master Blaster
If you know how to hunt, ie get close in and place your shots well, 30-30 will do the job big animals. It’s not meant for shooting game a mile away. But, it’s very versatile depending on the load.
I prefer the heavier lead, but one can get some pretty good groups long range with light “leverlution” rounds….(or whatever their name is”.
From my experience, a 190 is hands down the better whitetail dropper. A good placement will drop one where it stands every time.
You can buy these bullets from Barnes still, roll your own and you can play with different powders to get what you need. It’s a pretty good thumper for 100 yards or less, perfect for bear behind hounds where close up shots are the norm
The good old 30-30. My glenfield was darker than yours. All kidding aside it is amazing what you can do with the right bullet. True for all calibers. It is amazing what that old 30-30 is actually capable of. Lot of people doubt it. But its one of those "if you know, you know" i killed my first boar (in 1986), 325 pound actual Russian boar. Facing me at 60 yards. One 170 grain hard cast to the center of his chest. Jumped at the shot ran towards me ten yards and fell over and slid another yard. Done. Far too many deer to count. Ground hogs. Few coyotes. Couple foxes. And between my brother and I (using the same gun) six black bear. Smallest 178 pounds. Largest went 423 pounds. Took two shots on the big one but it was down on the first shot. Still kicking so shot it again. Just to be sure. Yep. Right bullet it'll do more than alot of people realize. Good video. Thanks.👍👍
Absolutely! I’ve taken more hogs with the 30-30 than anything else, put it in the right spot and it’s lights out
.30-30 used to be a highly respected hunters cartridge. My Dad went full circle and came back to his . 30-30 when . 348 and . 30-06 didn't kill mule deer any deader than . 30-30 did on the western slopes of Colorado.
TX ❤ shots fits quite nicely…..
Lol. I love it "Maine heart shot". 😂 I live in Maine, and that is so true....
My go to 30-30 ammo is Lever Revolution by Hornady, excellent ammo.
I have been using Hornady in my 30-30 but after watching this and another video comparing Hornady and Federal I have decided to stop using Hornady because it fragments a lot at impact. I just don't want that lead in my meat. I am going to purchase this Barnes 190gr and try it.
Round nose 30 30 will impress and suprise on penetration tests .whootie who did a milk jug test and 3030 round. Nose won against 308 06 and 300 win mag the others averaged 4 jugs 3030 was 12 jugs with 170 round nose slower bullets with heavy round nose will suprise ya
The M8 4x is the best looking scope for a lever gun, hands down!
Beautiful rifle! Love the store model’s 👍🏽😀❤️🇺🇸
The other thing with factory speeds. Usually they are indoors under ideal conditions for humidity and wind. That will affect speeds
The hand loads I’ve produced with this bullet using load data published on the Barnes site have a velocity of 2,207 fps. I paused load development; because deer season was fast approaching. Some fresh rounds are ready to test the groups. Assuming a six inch kill zone on a whitetail; the maximum point blank range is 210 yards. At that range they carry 1,187 foot pounds of energy. Soft tissue will probably cause minimal expansion; and two holes in each lung will lead to a short run and quick death.
With the velocity and weight of the bullet, it kinda reminds me of a 35 Remington as does the price.
At least for Barnes, I think part of the reason it came in low for you is that they are manufactured in my home State of Utah. Their elevation in Mona, Utah is like 4,974'. The air here is thinner than in Texas. While not a huge difference it can account for 40-50fps loss.
That could certainly be a factor
bravoooooo.good bulleet.
Thank you particularly for this magnificent video! I've waited for this for a long time. The 190 grain bullet loaded for the "royal" Winchester 30-30 is absolutely spectacular. Do you know of any retail ammo companies that sell the 190 grains Barnes? Thanks.
Unfortunately I can’t directly answer that question here due to guidelines
@@masonleather no problem. I fully understand.
Nice. Only problem is finding it. Even in large cities like Atlanta it's no guarantee you'll find what you're looking for at chain or local gun shops.
One of the very last cartridges I would think in relationship with dangerous game. Even for a camp rifle that brought to the base camp for maintain basic security I would go for .45-70 or .35 Remington at the very least. Thank you very much! It was some thinking out of the box!
Velocity loss can in part be the generous chambers on factory barrels
The leverevolution 160 grain 30/30 is the best,,,, makes the best of the best
Bring on the big pigs.
My old winchester got 26" octagon barrel test that lenght barrell.
Sometime shorter barrels do produce higher velocity then an inch or 2 higher and vice versa. Polish the hell out of your barrel to get higher velocity
Guys have been successfully hunting moose with 30/30s for an very long time. Most shots in the north east are within 150 yards and with 140g to 160g bullets. So this is a solid choice.
There was an old large game similar to 3030 303 savage??? 190 grain??? Very good reputation in alaska, if memory serves.
What I'd like to see, is for you to use different rifles, such as a Winchester 94, and a Henry. You may be surprised at the difference in velocity between rifles. Cheers
Love your videos man, your the one i watch for 30-30 reviews. Wondering if you have tested any of the Federal Fusion in 30-30 yet? Heard decent things about it, but would like to know your opinion. Thanks for all your hard work
Thanks! Not yet but I just got some Federal Hammer Down 30-30 (which is the Fusion bullet) that I’ll be testing very soon, it’ll be several weeks until the video is live though.
@@masonleather ok, very cool. I actually just found some of that stuff as well and picked up a couple boxes to try it out myself in 150gr. Im definitely interested to see how it does as well. Thank you for the reply and will be watching!
Teddy Roosevelt use to go on African safari's often and used a 7mm Mauser which is close to the 30-30. He put down elephants with it.
TR never used the 7mm Mauser, his favorites included a .30-03 caliber 1895 a Custom Springfield .30-06, the Model 95 .405 his favorite and a Best Grade H&H .500-465 double rifle if I recall correctly on the caliber. His son used the .405 and I believe a Winchester in .30 USA (.30-40) also had a Remington Model 8 .35 Remington he used to kill a charging lioness. There was also a Mannlicher Schoenauer thinking 9x56 but don't remember for certain. The 7mm Mauser also known as .275 Rigby by the British company RIGBY ( didn't want the Mauser GERMAN NAME on the rifle) was one of the main favorites of WDM BELL and it was he who used the cartridge on Elephant. Bell began his career with 2 Lee Enfield .303 military rifles with their 10 shot magazines. 215 grain military ammo was cheap and easy to find. He also even used the .256 Mannlicher (6.5x54 rather than the earlier rimmed 6.5x53R in the Dutch and Romanian Mannlicher military rifles ( frequently made into sporting arms by British and Belguim gun makers) He used the .275 Rigby for the majority but did also use larger guns later in his career the .318 Westley Richard's comes to mind and maybe the .404. Hope this helps. But yes it was W.D.M. Bell who used his .275 Rigby (interchangeable with the 7x57 Mauser for most of his pacaderms in those early years of smokeless powder hunting.
great video very interesting ! up here in northen ontario the price of ammo has gone stupid!!Any std centre fire round 50.00 box plus tax!! No shit you cant afford to go to the range man!!
I suspect that if you were handloading this 190 grain bullet for your own rifle with the Hodgdon Lever powder, getting a very consistent 2000 FPS out of 20" barrels safely would not be difficult. It likely could be done with some other powders easily enough as well. That is not asking all that much from a bullet only 20 grains up from the standard 170s that can be pushed to 2200 FPS standard factory ammo claimed speeds with Lever Powder. But it is all about your individual rifle barrel and how solid your particular rifle is when we start "rolling our own"
That’d be awesome to load some up to 2,000 or even 2,100, I’d love to see expansion if it were going faster
I would agree with that. 👍👍