WILL THEY BLOW?! 30-30 Winchester 150gr Jacketed Hollow Point Ammo Test
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- čas přidán 23. 08. 2024
- Become a Channel Member! / @masonoutdoors_masonle... 30-30 Winchester Jacketed Hollow Point Super-X 150 grain ammo ballistics gel test fired from a Glenfield 30A (Marlin 336) with 20 inch barrel.
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All shots are fired from a distance of 100 yards to encompass the majority of common real world hunting scenarios.
I will be shooting into 10% ballistics gel from www.clearballi... that has been calibrated to meet the FBI ballistics testing protocol.
While ballistics gel isn’t an exact proxy for big game, small game, predators or defensive situations, it does provide a repeatable medium through which to test various bullets and ammunitions against each other.
With each type of ammo tested I collect data on bullet penetration depth, bullet weight retention, bullet expansion and muzzle velocity.
For reference, bullet expansion is measured at the widest expanded point using a calibrated Frankford Arsenal Digital Caliper.
Bullet weight is measured using a calibrated Frankford Arsenal Digital Scale after having removed as much ballistics gel as possible from the expanded bullets.
Bullet velocity is measured using a ProChronoPal chronograph set approximately 7’ from the shooting bench.
I am fully aware that a chronograph measuring bullet velocity from 7’ away from the muzzle is going to register a slower velocity than if velocity were measured directly at the muzzle, but that difference is going to be so small as to be all but irrelevant in regards to comparison of actual measured velocity versus factory stated velocity.
My goal with these ballistics gel tests is to provide hunters like you and I with the most objective information possible to help us make the best choice for our particular hunting situation.
The results of these tests are my own and I cannot guarantee the same or similar performance on your part. The views and opinions expressed in this video are solely my own.
All videos are filmed in a safe and controlled environment on a private range with all applicable safety precautions by a trained professional.
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I've shot more deer and hogs with a 30-30 than a pick-up could safely haul. I've always stuck to 150gr bullets, but I've used everything from those same Winchester's, to the old Winchester silvertips, and now I use 150gr Sierra FN's. Performance on game is basically identical. Make an accurate shot and you wont have to worry about tracking. With the exception of one deer that I gut shot, everything else dropped on the spot, and that gut shot deer only went about 100 yds before it laid down. I hunt with lots of different calibers, but unlike some ppl, I dont look down on a man with a 30-30 in deer camp. It's a highly capable round, that's why it's still around.
THat sounds like such fun brother! My first rifle my mother bought me for Christmas a beautiful Winchester 94 20 inch Carbine. I'm old now but I still hunt , maybe I'll get her out this weekend> Deer Elk modern rifle opens this weekend
@@chrishill1286 Good luck brother. You're well armed! I have a Winchester and a Marlin. I'm partial to the Marlin because I'm a lefty and it takes a scope a lil easier. My Winchester has provided plenty of table fair of its own though. I need to bring it back out!
Shot two doe this morning with my marlin 30 30 made perfect heart shots both jumped in the air mule kicked ran prolly 50 dropped with federal 150 power shock but I Also have Winchester 150s also remington corlock 170s they drop them lol
When I was 12 my father's was looking for a light recoiling deer rifle. Most people bought their sons a .243. My father wasn't a fan nor was he a fan of the lever action with half cook safety's and young cold hands. He bought me a savage 340 in 30/30. That gun got passed all through the family. I'm not sure how many used it for their first deer.
I have a Marlin and a Winchester 94, I'm also a lefty, and partial to Marlin for the same reasons.
This is the original Winchester “Open Point” bullet from the 1930’s!
Worked then, works now. In 2003, Winchester ran another run after being absent for several decades. I normally reload all m .30/30, have since the ‘70’s. I bought them at Walmart after church one Sunday afternoon. Dropped by the range and confirmed my zero. They ran 2,252fps average from my 20” Marlin/Glenfield M30. Shot to present zero. Four hours later I had a 120lb doe feed into range at approximately 90yds. Results were the bullet didn’t exit but was just under the hide like the old school gunwritters preferred! Expanded bullet looks like a wadcutter with jacket nose peeled back to where hol
Ow cavity terminated. Perfect! Weighs 110gr. Great video.
Any difference in pre-fired projectile and recovered projectile gets eaten by your family. Lead is bad
Hi brother, good video I have been shooting the 30-30 Hollow point in Remington and Winchester since the 80s you put it on a deer's shoulder they don't walk away !! To me one of the best 30-30 rounds made. Taking a couple of hogs . Lots and lots of deer over the last 40 years !
Glad to be of service!
I AGREE 100%... used these a long time, then I went with Winchester Power Max. They were even better..
Cant find the power max anymore, so I wander if this may be the same.
@@jpvernoutside3378 I think your Power Max was a PHP (protected hollow point) bonded bullet. The picture I saw resembled a ballistic tip somewhat, but that is probably where the similarity ended. Edit: Ooops! I must have been recalling an actual ballistic silvertip picture. Looked again and did not see a polymer tip. Just an open hollow point.
@@johnnorman7708
YES, they are PHP BONDED. VERY GOOD bullet. I have about a half box left. I just wish I would've bought more when they were in stock at local shops. But I am looking forward to using the 150gr hollowpoint again.
@@jpvernoutside3378 I think for whatever reason, Winchester has suspended production. I am betting that when the ammo crisis went berserk that a lot of the secondary premium type .30-30 loads bit the dust in an effort to get standard loads out the door, and even that wasn't enough to fill the demand. And it's getting ready for a rerun from all indications....
They are wicked on deer and hogs. I have shot them for years and they never disappoint on game.
Get a deer and lets how it works!
Trust me this ammo is devestating on deer
Not in my experience, horrific penetration and it went nearly 400 yards before dropping.
For a while this was my go to round in my Marlin. I forgot how many deer this load killed. Honestly I don't know if it put em down any quicker than the other soft points, but I did notice it shed some of it's copper along the way. I didn't find out about this load until the mid 90's and the best thing that I found about this round over the Remington and Federal is you can load and unload this round till the cows come home with zero bullet deformation. Good to see someone ran these over the chrono with very good results. BTW Midway USA has these on sale for a tad over $20. Jump on this deal.
This was my ammo last year for whitetails. It shot about an inch at 100 yards out of my Henry. Better than any other load I tested. Unfortunately I didn’t harvest a deer with my 30-30. Thanks for another great video.
Glad to be of service!
This bullet is a hollow point constructed to hang together for medium game. The hollow point guarantees it will expand even at extended ranges. It is not a fragile varmint bullet intended for fragmentation. The boxes have changed. The price certainly has too. $31.52 at Wal-Mart. Thats about double what it was 3 years ago.
It's a crime of how expensive ammo is now. I honestly can't afford to shoot OR reload anymore... with the high ammo, Primer, and bullet prices nowadays! They're loosing the shooting community!
Thanks Brandon!
Hollow point guarantees..... (???)
No such thing....
@@arthurshingler2025 Well, you may be right. Using the word guarantees might be out of place in terminal ballistics. This particular bullet has an open point intended to promote rapid expansion under normal conditions, along with a thick jacket to control total expansion and assist penetration. In the case of longer ranges and lower impact velocity hollow points tend to open, but much less than normal. This does reduce total expansion and enhance penetration. I think Winchester got this bullet right. It has however never been a super common or popular load for whatever reason for most deer hunters. Most people didn't know it existed even though it has been around since at least the 60's.
@johnnorman7708
My buddy growing up back in the late 60s used a 32 Special with a hollow point to take his first deer.
At closer ranges they usually expand well.
I know my buddy's did !
I haven't killed a deer with a hollow point... just soft nose bullets.
I have taken 44 magnums and 444 Marlins loaded up with the same bullets at the same velocities... but have not killed a deer with either of them yet.
Perhaps I'll give them a try, one of these days.
@@arthurshingler2025 I would have to dig into the old gun digests, but it is likely that a lot of the . 30-30 class cartridges had hollow point options back then. Engineering on bullets is mostly invisible art to the end users, and in the case of . 30-30 hollow points, there were differing performance intentions. The winchester 150 grain is intended to open up fast initially and then hang together while penetrating deeper. Mason's test here showed that. A tapered thickness on the jacket is most likely how they achieve that. The Remington 170 grain Core-Lokt hollow point is intended to actually open slower than their soft point. The thick jacket controls expansion initiated by the hollow point. How it could beat the near perfect terminal effect of regular Core-Lokt is a good question. I would love to see a gel test on that 170 grain CLHP . 30-30 and see if total depth of penetration is better than average as Remington intended. I'm thinking they must have had bear, moose, hogs, and elk in mind for that load.
Nice rifle.
I picked up a 1978 vintage Glenfield 30A from my neighbor. Pristine shape.
Has a Marlin scope and that's about it for mods.
Used them last year on a big bush buck, absolutely devistating on deer, massive blood trail, fantastic round.
I don’t know why you don’t have hundreds of thousands of views. These vids are great.
Thanks!! I’d wager because this kind of thing is somewhat seasonal, I expect a ramp in views as we get closer to deer/hunting season
I have the exact same type of rifle (K-mart special) but with half magazine and a 2x7 Leupold scope. These JHPs have been around for years and are very effective, especially at longer ranges, 150 yards+. They will reliably expand while JSPs might not expand as much. Excellent video, thank you !
Glad to be of service!
Got a 2-7 Leupold on my .270. Awesome scope.
2x7x33Leupold with ballistic dot is a real deal on lever action carbines. Size looks right on a compact rifle, optical clarity is excellent, and 7x is more than adequate for the job on the upper end. 2x on the low end is great in short range brushy areas too.
FINALLY !!!!!! Some one is testing ballistics and bullet expansion at the range you would shoot wild game at !!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ! Them bozo's that test expansion 10 feet from there water jugs are jokers, only makes for good tv. but useless information.
Haha, glad to be of service! Also, liquid water is not nearly as good a proxy as ballistics gel is for flesh. I understand why people use it (it’s cheap), but calibrated gel is a much better test medium. Thanks!
Hollow point bullets can be engineered to deliver a wide variety of expansion characteristics. Sierra makes Game King hollow point boat tail bullets that absolutely expand properly for deer size game. Personally I think this Winchester JHP might be one that has 2 things going for it. I think it might be great in short barrels that have reduced velocity, and also at longer ranges for a . 30-30 where the velocity certainly falls off as well. The minor fragmentation you saw here is probably evidence that these bullets do indeed open up earlier in the wound track, but likely due to jacket thickness in the back portion of the bullet the initial rapid expansion is reduced and more controlled further down the wound track to allow adequate penetration which does seem to be in that minimum 20" range so desired in the tests here. If a rapid expansion . 30-30 load is desired for varmint hunting, take a look at the Sierra 125 grain flat nose hollow point. This bullet has been available in Federal factory loaded ammo since about 1979. Its faster, shoots flatter, and opens up fast. Even though it wasn't intended as a deer bullet due to reduced penetration potential on anything except good broadside shots, a lot of deer have been taken with it since it came out. A
Thanks for this. Those Glenfield rifles were such a great value. K-Mart staples that were affordable, The bluing was a bit pedestrian with a bit less of a polished finish and pressed-checkered birchwood stocks, which really kept costs down without sacrificing a quality build. Marlin really filled a niche with these as they were well-made, durable and accurate, as your own rifle can attest. A true working-class rifle.
In my younger days I would get a box of this every year and put meat on the table every time. It's very accurate and will put a fist sized exit hole at 200yrds on a yearling whitetail. From my experience you can over velocity a round and this is just about perfect.
Sounds about right! I’m looking forward to trying these at 200 yards myself, seems like a great option for the 30-30 at longer than typical range.
That 30-30 hollow point used to be quite popular for hunting black-tail deer in Northern California.
45 years 150 JHP. BEARS. DEER. MOOSE
ANTELOPE MULEYS. AND A NICE ELK
YEAH. IM SATISFIED
This is an oldie design that Winchester has revived. They made these back in the 1960s and 70s. Cool design that loads slick through the loading gate and the nose is protected. I still have several boxes of those old Super X Winchester .30-30 hollow point factory loads like these from way back in the day. Cool to see them brought back into production.
Looking good ! I’ve got several boxes of these and was looking forward to this video.
Hey Mason. The Winchester 150gr offerings give good expansion and penetration without costing the house! I’d definitely use this on pigs here in Australia. I handload but recently purchased two packs of Barnes Hog Stopper ammo with a 150gr Barnes hollow point copper projectile. I’ll be keen to see how these turn out. Thanks for sharing! 🙏
I’ve got a box of the Federal Premium 30-30 with 150gr Barnes TSX, basically the same stuff, will be filming it in the coming weeks 👍🏼
@@masonoutdoors_masonleather awesome 👏
I'd use this bullet once and a while just for the nostalgia it brings to the table!
Great video as always! Finally run into some decently affordable 35Rem ammo this week. $40 a box. I remember paying less than $20 a box 10 years ago, Now the norm is $65-$110 (20ct)
Thanks! Yes indeed 35 Rem is still a ghost, pretty rare out there
I saw this ammo at my local shop for the first time about 2 weeks ago and bought 100 rounds, based on this video and the comments I think I’ll have my deer ammo for the rest of my life 😂
Nice man I got a Marlin from the early '80s that I inherited from my papa, but I never got to shoot it yet, looks awesome!
The 150gr HP is the only round I've used for white tails in the last 40 years and have shot it at range to 250 yards. I have a Mod 94 and a New England handi rifle. The round does very well in both.
I have seen my kid shoot many deer with this round out of a 18” barrel of a mod 340 savage and never has one not dropped in it’s tracks! Thanks for the video!
I shot these 6-7 years ago then I couldn't find them for a looooong time they hold good groups but they do way more damage then what's needed if you hit the shoulder square it's kinda amazing how much damage it does
Very interesting. No complaints. Looks like a good deer or hog option. I assume accuracy is going to be good. Nice old rifle & scope combo. Thank you.
Glad to be of service!
I love the old 170 gr hollow point from Remington. Can’t find them anywhere.
I've shot 2 deer and a coyote with these. Neither deer went more than a few steps, about turned the coyote inside out lol. Only downside was the bullet fragments in the meat.
Ballistically, they were awesome! They were hitting about 8 inches higher at 100yds than the win power points for me too. To me they seemed to have a flatter trajectory but i never really tested it. I use leverevolution now but have a box of hollow points stashed.
Wow to see this bullet. I didn’t think they made those anymore. I bought this Winchester hollow point. Back in the late 80s from Gander Mountain and I’ve never seen them for sale but I haven’t really been looking for them, I bought them because I was sick of all my soft nose bullets getting smashed down in my lever rifle and these did not.
First, your content is excellent. Tons of information that we, as hunters can actually use. Next, these HP rounds don't seem any better than the 150/170 round nose soft points that we've used for years. Wonder if they might have greater expansion if they were hand loaded to higher velocities? I had great success shooting 170 grains graphed at 2660 fps. Thanks for real world information.
Glad to be of service!
I’d not seen that load on the shelves in a few years. Another that might give you the varmint load you’re looking for is the Federal 125 grain JHP.
All my life i have heard about thr possibility of tube explosions with hardet or pointed bullets, but i have never seen or heard of it actually happening.
My first deer shot in Pennsylvania at about 150 yards, was shot with a single shot 30-30.... Winchesyer Factory 170 gr. Power Point.
One shot.... it literally knock the deer off its feet like it was hit by a locomotive!!!
One shot, one kill.
Sadly most guns chambered for the .30-30 cartridge are short barreled carbines. The "Original" RIFLES had long barrels to get maximum muzzle velocity out of the small cartridge. My Grandfather's rifle, from about the late 1930's had a 28 inch barrel. And a second rifle not quite as old had a 26 inch.
With our own custom hand loads, he consistently got muzzle velocities of 2600 fps with the 150 grain bullets. Thus making 200 yard kills on the very Biggest Western Mule Deer 🦌 easy and reliable!
Check out some of the gun makers catalogs from way back then. They offered barrels of from 20 inch carbines up to 28 inch "Rifles"!
Can you do a Remington 30-30 170 gr Corelokt hollow point gel test?
I have this exact rifle and scope. It’s I believable how well that thing shoots. .5 moa with 150s all day long and I’ve NEVER cleaned that thing. I wish I could find another
Another good video, thanks. I shot the exact same bullet for a while and I would say from my experience they were a touch more accurate than the soft point in my gun. (336cs 30-30) made in 1992. As far as hunting goes they worked great on white tail and hogs. There is quite a bit more tissue damage if I remember correctly. So if your worried about ruining some of the meat you might want to take that into consideration.
I hand load 200 grain cast hollow points in my 35 Rem. They chronograph an average of 2100 fps with 40 grains of varget out of my 20” barrel. The Bernell hardness is 10.5. I powder coat and gas check them. They flatten out like a penny after 3 to 4 jugs of water…to hard of test medium. The load drops deer like Thors hammer and blows completely through deer every time. Heavy for caliber hollow points pushed 2100 fps or faster imo are Thors hammer on Whitetails.
I would like to see this test redone with a 16" trapper or 14" Contender barrel. A 4-6 inch barrel change might really change the results.
I have shot corelocks and Silvertip in my Winchester Model 94....I have had it for about 63 years....
My 1st buck was 180#. Entered L shoulder exit neck. 2” gaping exit wound. Anchored w/in 10 yds.
Are you going to do any .243 tests. I would really like to know the best ammo I should buy for this coming season
Yes, next time I film I’ll be doing a bunch of 243, those vids will be live in plenty of time for this season 👍🏼
Shot my 19th elk last year with a clapped out savage 110 .243. Handloaded Speer GrandSlam, absolutely thumper of a round, if you actually find the round they retain like 90%. On most elk, this bullet almost always exits out the other side.
With my 30-30 I've always used Remington 175 gr core locks hollow point. I can drop what I want up to 150 yrds. In my opinion that round is the best.
The old 110 gr hp worked quite well on whitetail
My favorite 30-30 rounds
Always like the Federal 170gr Nosler Part in the 30-30.
Would like to see some sierra 125grn hollow point flat nose 30-30 vids.
Great video! Greetings from Bulgaria! I would be happy to see a test of cartridges in caliber 30-06.LAPUA MEGA 185 grain. I use them and am very satisfied, here in Europe these ammo are very well respected.
Thanks, glad to be of service! I have several 30-06 videos live and more to come!
Interesting that heavy nosler makes a 170 flat point round nose w Hornady f t x in the 160 s Depending on rifling and type of 30-30 most twist are slower than usual
Great review.
What I would like to know is if Hornady lever revolution ammo is used, does that extra point on the end extend the range of this ammo, and does it expand on impact. If this helps get another 50 yards and flies flatter, it just might give this ammo an extended use into the future.
The Hornady leverevolution,,,160 grn FTX,,,, is a good deer Slayer. But they do fragment,,,, even out past 100 yrds
Gel media is a beautiful thing for a lab setting. I would say on an animal with a thicker hide and then wet muscle or bone, these bullets would expand to the breaking point. That one that fragged, what happened with that one? I'm going to load some Hornady 160's on top of some CFE-223. I like that powder.
All I hunt with is my Marlin 36a 30-30 mostly jacketed hollow point, but I also use 170 grain soft points and 170 grain round point
You should do a 30-30 150 grain verse 170 grain into your ballistics gel and show more slow motion shots of that to see the damage it does on impact that would be great to see.
Lol Just watch the the rest of the videos that you have on there and pretty much is what I want to see lol Great videos, great information.
Sounds good to me!
With 100 grains left after the ballistic gel, that's still as much mass as a heavy .243 load starting out
Certainly is
Shot a doe 35 yds dead on. Blew a grapefruit sized hole in the collar bone area. Bullet blew up. The pieces went everywhere. Had to throw away the left shoulder due to blood shot meat and lead
Doesn’t surprise me. Any bone impact at all and I’d think these would go nuclear.
Thank you for sharing,good information..
When smoke blows out of the hole, that's when you know it's good. I wonder if that sometimes happens when you shoot a deer?
I've been around for awhile and I can honestly say I've seen more game from deer to wild hogs killed with the little 22lr than any other ammo made.
I've never had a round shoot worse in my marlin 30-30. These only get like 6-8 inch groups at 100 woth a scope.
Load 120grain barnes tac bullets to the max and see how nice and fast it gets
I think it might expand a little better if shooting into water than gel.
Very nice, great video.
Have you ever did a test with the now discontinued Federal 125 green hollow points ? I'd love to see those results
I shot a white tail with that round. Actually, with the same gun you used in your test. I was shocked at the trauma to the ribs because At the range, I was not impressed either. I guess we got under. That Ballistic Jell doesn't show us massive bleeding.
Any appropriate deer caliber rifle with just about any bullet will result in massive bleeding from a deer if it’s hit anywhere in the chest. The point, as stated in the video, is to compare bullets to each other.
With the democrats running this country, we Sure know how to do things ass backwards.
I've always used 150gr Hollow point. Used to use Winchester Super X... then I changed to Power Max bullets. Those were the best I ever used..
NOW, I'm curious since you can't find Power Max anymore, did they just stop that and now calling it the original Super X
After your results it makes me believe that even more because they look just like the proprietary "FUSED" lead to copper.
Explosion/Expansion? Yep, thats exactly what it looks like. Sadly, just one of the cavities. For those not familiar when a bullet expands into a fairly large cavity and that cavity fills with air and suddenly collapses once again the air within can undergo enough compression to yield a secondary explosion of visibly flaming energy, causing a secondary and internal explosion within the animal as the bullet streaks far away down its wound channel. The telltale dark markings left in this area speak of such a secondary explosion.
Need to find some 110 grain reloads. Factory ammo at that weight is probably rare.
I'd be interested to see how such bullets, in .35 Remington and .444 Marlin, performed.
Looks just like win 150 grain super x from when I was a ,kid in the mid 80s
Those East Texas piney wood rooters despise them.
These were better than the heavier loads you used
It looks like it may be a better load than the 150gr soft point for longer range shots (100-150yds) as it is more likely to still expand well at a lower velocity than a soft point
It might be. I will be doing some 200 yard 30-30 tests in the future.
I like that Glenfield rifle man, might have to get me one if I can find one. I also love your leather work and I'd be lying if I said I didn't want something with a decepticon logo on it lol
You should see the performance of the 350 legend with the 170 grain barnes vortex TSX. And has 99.5 percent weight retention
The Vortex bullets work very well in just about anything and any caliber but if you really want to see some damage try the Hammer Bullets. They are just devastating in the way they hit and expand transferring energy.
Yep there’s a box in inventory, the price tag is 13.35 🤷♂️.
Drop down to the 125 grain Hollows. They will do the speed and velocity
I'd like too get my hands on a box of that stuff!
Have You done a video on the Hornady Levereverlosion for the 30-30?
Yes
i bought a box of these that are bonded , called winchester power max bonded hollow point. It would probably not shed as much weight ...
i bought a bunch of them in rem and win by mistake. like 5 bucks a box. wish i'd bought about 50. they flatten stuff.
Ive used hollow points, but still rather use 150 gr silver tips. Even 180 gr. Drops deer at 150yds.
They seem to shoot consistently in regards to velocity
I use them all the time
The ammo always make a explosion every time it hit a tough target
Do you make left handed versions as well ?
The current retail price of this load is a real serious question mark for me. Why would this stuff be priced like premium ammo when it is a 50+ year old cup and core design and used to be about the same price as Power Point just 3 years ago?
Problem is the "ammo crisis".... 308, 300blk, 556, 9mm are all top priority. N price reflects that. 30-30 went from $10 a box to $25... 308 went from $14->$25->$20. 9mm went from $0.10->$0.60->$0.25... things are coming down. Just very slowly
@@benjaminhuberty5888 The ammo crisis did affect things across the board but this load is currently selling at $31.52 a box at Wal-Mart. That is the most expensive . 30-30 ammo they have had recently. But all the . 30-30 ammo they get in is selling at a brisk pace. Because of . 30-30 having been scarce to non existent on the shelves nation wide for well over a year.
@@benjaminhuberty5888 The last $10.00 .30-30 was in 2019 for Core-Lokt 150s on a huge price roll back. That wasn't a normal price even then. Most common . 30-30 was hovering in the $14.00 to $17.00 range then. I bought Hammer Down for $15.00 even in 2020 before things went nuts.
I believe that was a Prison/LEO loading.
I’d rather stick with 170 grain Silvertips. That hollow point looks tiny. Imagine it could fill with fur and skin, and not expand much at all.
I killed a lot of deer with that old hollow point
I didn’t realize they were back making it
It’s always been a deer killer
Anyone else feel attacked when he called the gun and scope vintage. 😂
I reckon that makes me vintage also😂
Dope
💯
Looks like ammo people are waking up. A HP 30-30? A 150? I just saw some 190 also from two manufacturers and they went for penetration 37 inches. It’s 30-30 ultra light time for Elk/Moose.
FLYING ASH TRAYS.... should Change a Deers zip code .
Haven't seen this ammo in along time where did you find it
Online
1.9x expansion is great for any projectile Don't understand why you're trying to downplay it!