CRITICAL Lesson For The Home Engine Builder- MORE Camshaft QC Issues To Wreck Your Day
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- čas přidán 14. 03. 2022
- A post teardown inspection on this 440 Six Pack engine revealed a camshaft quality control issue that would have wiped out this engine in just a few minutes had it not been caught.
This is exactly the kind of thing someone learning the craft of engine building needs to always be on the lookout for, especially in today's world of hit and miss manufacturing and quality control practices.
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Junkyard motors that are good and running look better and better every day
Lol..you're definitely not a builder.
Maybe. Unless the reason it’s in the junkyard is because the engine failed. It’s still a gamble. Ideally you can get an engine that can be certified with compression numbers and hopefully proof that it was a good running engine.
@@19Clutch69 I'll leave the expensive and tedious work with people who have deeper pockets and more time than me. If your definition of "builder" excludes guys who don't want to deeply scrutinize every molecule of a 40+ year old engine, that's fine. I'm here to roast tires on a budget and not sweat the small stuff. To each their own.
I’ve been through 3 so far and it’s not the way to go but my luck is definitely not good or something lol that’s why I’m building my own engine and all of it is just a big learning experience lmao 😜
Tony sees more with his peripheral vision than most people see 20/20
And he doesn't even need his glasses for peripheral vision.
Uncle Tony, You're the GOAT! Educating the younger folk the fine art to muscle/classic car, including the "secrets" nobody else talks about!
I get an overwhelming response to "why does it take so long, just get it in there" well..... here's your sign. In this day and age esp you have to test fit Everything, and go over Everything with a fine tooth comb before you dive into it. I think people (young and old) have gotten too accustomed to "plug n play". Great Video UTG!
Just to get it in there?! Lolol said the person with absolutely no mechanical inclination at all.
Why does it take me longer to assemble a motor then many other folks?
Answer, because MY motors are STILL RUNNING ! with regular oil changes for 100s of thousands of miles ! because I clean everything over & over & over in very great detail each time before my final assembly. The machine shop cleaned everything and said it was ready for assembly, Should I take the time to clean EVERYTHING AGAIN ? No, clean everything and use a gun wire brush kit on all oil passages 3 or 4 more times, and then one MORE time. There is no such thing as TO CLEAN ! Should I clean everything again ? SURE it costs nothing but time.
I mean, start to finish 2 days maybe from bare block and i still make sure all my parts and surfaces are clean, everything lubricated, torqued correctly, etc. Sometimes you just get the shit end of the stick no matter how careful you are
@@texastootin1628 Oh yeah 120% agree
Always clean all oil passages before you install anything! I've had several cranks, even a custom cnc piece that had stuff in the passages. 5 minutes will save you thousands.
Amen to that! Check fit everything, and check it all again. Esp in this day and age
Buddy of mine had head rebuilt with new cam for his turbo Honda.
Went to dyno.
Made less hp
Then less
Then less
Then the cam locked up.
Head never got cleaned properly.
Black Rock shooter
Old guy here, been doing 'back yard' engines since early 1980s, and I absolutely do confess, I have never given a cam's lube holes a second thought. Been lucky I guess.
Thank you Uncle Tony. I will certainly be on the lookout in future.
That is absolutely terrifying coming from a person who just finished putting a motor together that’s one of those places you could potentially easily overlook scary business scary business
I can appreciate your concern. I've got a short block assembled 4 bolt small block on a stand in my shop right now waiting for me to complete. Factory Roller comp cam installed....
Agree! You second guess anything that pops up, later. Sleep loss.
I put magnets in drain holes in heads and JB weld a round magnet to the drain plug.
That will tell you if something is fudged up.
Bought a set of Dart heads 20 yrs. ago, couldn't get the bolts started, bolt holes were out of parallel from the dowels .045 and .062 end to end. They took the heads back, said they would send new ones as soon as they got some castings. I called every month for 3 months, finally got some heads, they sent the same ones back with the holes opened up with a die grinder. I told them I didn't pay for seconds, a few days later a new set came, along with 2 free tee shirts(whoopie). About a year later went to see a former co-worker that had a small machine shop, had a pair of Dart heads in the box sitting there, said he had to open up the bolt holes for their owner. So this is nothing new. Never wore the shirts, no free advertising from me.
Were the shirts at least all cotton so you could wipe up oil spills with them?
@@craigbenz4835 I had to check, Jerzees heavyweight Made in Mexico.
@@kustomdeluxe8489 so halfway decent oil rags
proper prep is always key to success....HB
NEVER, underestimate wisdom. Word to the wise.
That’s gotta be a real grind I can’t see a new cam going out the door totally without quality control.
Great video, even for us old timers!! Like using a gun, you can NEVER be too on top of things!! Always, always check and double check everything, you've only got one shot to get it right!
I just had to clean a gummed up oil bypass valve on my '64 Valiant to get my oil pressure back up! Not from shotty parts but from sitting for 20+ years.
Great reminder , oiling is the life blood 🩸!!!!
so sad to see,i have built engines for a long time since the late 70s,i am so disappointed with today's manufacturing and quality control,even engine builders shops and autobody
the first advice I received about engine assemble was check and clean everting twice. still holds true.
This is the channel the car wizard wishes he was, UTG is the real mechanic!
These tips are very valuable to newbie builders like myself. Thanks Tony!
A similar thing just happened to me a couple days ago. Maybe not as bad but I got my block back from the machine shop and figured I should test fit the cam. Super common stock style Melling cam. All the oil holes on the journals have little burrs around them. I didn't notice so it scratched the hell out of the brand new cam bearings. The rep at Melling said I could return the cam to the retailer, the retailer would send the cam to Melling to analyze and they would make a decision. Big companies are great....
Buy Elgin cams
Absolutely!! Never take anything for granted. Great vid and reminder! Thanks for sharing. 👍😃
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Love your channel.
I wish you could have posted this last year. What started out as a cam and lifter swap on a 5.7, due on a to lifter failure turned into a rebuild when we saw some minor damage to the top of one of the pistons. So after a thorough cleaning new rod and crank bearings, new rod, crank and head bolts, valve job and resurfaced heads, new name brand cam lifters and springs, it laster about 50 miles and grenaded. Upon dissassembly we found the cam had seized in the cam bearings resulting in two spun cam bearings, a destoyed cam phaser and 16 bent valves.
The cam journals are about 2 thou. larger than the stock cam. It installed without alot of effort and i made the assumption it was fine ( did not measure it before intallation, my mistake) .
Again, thanks for sharing. I dont want anyone to go through this.
Yeah..... this is definitely a hard lesson to learn the hard way, and sometimes if we forget it comes back to bite us all.
This is an excellent channel ,I am learning a lot ,I take time off from farming and then I come into my house after dark and I watch your videos keep them coming
Wow, good find. Thanks again for the reminder to do the basics.
Excellent video. Somebody is watching our back.
Glad you saw it ...... saved a heartache
someone really half assed this thing together just to sell it. you guys will probably find several more problems tony. thanks for another great video tony and kathy!
So glad I seen this today. Getting ready to install a cam in a 351M
Holy shit Tone, for years I’ve been installing these right from the box. I just assumed these were clean. Good job man!
Thanks uncle tony. Changed a flat tappet camshaft in a generator today. 350 sbc. At 6000 hours it decided it no longer needed #5 exhaust lobe. Not sure if was a soft cam or a faulty lifter. Of course customer chose to go ahead with installing cam without disassembling and cleaning entire engine. Thank you for the video! When using mid to upper level cams and lifters normally getting 30-40,000 hours of 24/7 use in the oilfield from a sbc 350.
One good thing about the big engines I work on is they have a prelude makes ensuring proper oil flow easy.
This applies to everything. I can't remember the last time I've done a brake job where the pads fit in the guides. Every single time I have to file them down to get them to fit. Doesn't matter what vehicle I'm working on. GMC Sierra, Subaru Legacy, Ford Focus, Saturn Aura, Chevy Malibu, all different brands of brake pad and every single one of them needed filing to come even close to fitting.
I just went through this, the one that would fit was so tight it would dragged bad.
Hyundai/Kia serious malfeasance from the factory.
yep, so very very true my friend!
aftermarket pads, OEM receptor seasoned with age :) Just be glad they designed in more material you could remove than less.
That's how it is these days. EVERYTHING needs to be fitted.
Yay! You got free bonus metal with the cam!!
I would never have thought that was possible, but good to know!
My instructor, at the vocational school, stressed this. I had my 350 crank reground by a very well known machinist, in my area. It's a good thing he did. Because there was grit in the oil passages.
As a guy that does machine work and occasionally on large industrial engines I always tell the customer I have ran it thru the parts washer but you are responsible for final cleaning before assembly. Most people aren't big on paying $100/hr for detailed cleaning.
I had the exact same issue on my rebuilt 383. First start,no pressure. Immediate stop saved it. A little spiral of metal from drilling the cam at the factory. Once solved,the engine( with hivol Mellings pump had 80 psi at cold start.
This is an extreme case, but yeah.... I've come across this as well and not only in the Cam.
Good to know, I'm ordering a new cam for my rebuild soon.
I'm gonna be honest, I have never once ever looked at or even thought about cleaning oil passages in a brand new cam. I will definitely be more thorough from now on
Anyone that even gets near a Motor should already know all about this .. Thanks for this Video ✌
7:40 engine pump attack 😂
paint red really looks like a heart
Thanks Tony for the reminder to check it out. Reminds me of a new water pump that had a big gob of casting material left in it though the box said "tested and approved". Enjoy your work!
Great lesson for us newbs.
God bless you, Old Timer, for helping a New Timer like me out. Experience is a heckuva teacher. Respect, Sir.
Thanks for sharing Tony 😊
Here i am waiting for my motor to come back from the machine shop. First one ive ever built. Ill be sure to check everything now.
Thank you sir! Noob here hahah. I will be tackling my own engine build in the near future hopefully. Thanks again for the info👍🏼
I'm just starting to learn more and more about disassembling and reassembling engines. At the moment I'm learning on my motorcycle by doing my own valve adjustments and recently having to replace a head gasket. Everything I've learned so far has mostly been from a service manual and trial and error prevention😅😂
I've gone from saying I'll never go into the engine and now I'm getting more and more confident in myself thanks to old school guys like yourself and a lot of reading on forums from others that have the experience with my particular engine. Thank you for the video because I now know one more thing to look for
I found that very interesting. After my block was cleaned I always removed all of the block's oil gallery plugs and used my gun cleaning kit with a brush and solvent and cleaned the galleries from end to end in both directions. The last thing was to blow out ALL galleries with high-pressure compressed air to remove any brass brush bristles that may have been left behind. Then replace the push-in pugs with threaded pipe plugs and Teflon tape. You will need to tap all of your holes in the block for threaded pipe plugs BEFORE you start cleaning.
Good catches! And that's why your extremely valuable experience is unparalleled and unprecedented when it comes to paying attention to the smallest of details! Between the bent rod and the gakked up cam oil holes,and who knows what else you'll find after a closer inspection, it's great you did and thanks so much for sharing such things with us!!!! Those couple of easily overlooked things that a novice or a person who isn't looking as close as y'all did, would've cost them a lot of money and heartache for sure! thanks again guys!
man im gonna be putting my 1st engine together here in a couple weeks and i would not have thought to check the oil passage ways especially in the cam THANK YOU !
This applies to staple parts too. Run your finger inside the threads of a new oil filter. Any brand. Metal debris. Learned this the hard way wiping out two mains. So now beside the obvious pre-fill, I always half-fill, shake, & empty them to rinse. Try it sometime & empty it into a paper towel; truly frightening.
"run your fingers inside the thread of a new oil filter" I did that and got a metal splinter and a big cut on my finger... Use caution!! ;)
Yeah, with metal parts, maybe NOT running your fingers over stuff might be a good idea!! Takes a little higher IQ, but not that mich!
I like mmo on a rag, lot more replaceable than my fingers
Honestly never would have thought twice about that, straight out of the box.
good info. I would have never checked. I can smell my motor burning now. Thanks Tony.
Nice catch. Great video. Much respect.
Uncle Tony u have the patience of a saint ! I'd be lookin to bend that cam round someone's head . Well done
Got to have patience in this world
Treat every part as 'semi finished' and check everything!
That's very good advice for sure. I did a in frame rebuild on a cat 3406e 5ek in one of our old trucks this past summer and the normal job took a hard turn when we pulled it apart and the gear train on the front of the motor was chipping away in a bad way and the 3 day over haul turned into a 2 week over haul because we had to clean all the metal out of the block crank and everything in between and that was a job in itself. Great video again thanks.
Incredible lesson. Thanks Tony.
Great video Uncle Tony! Like President Reagan said, "Trust, but verify!".
I would love to see Tony recreate a 426 rb wedge using modern parts and blocks.
I have the block, and that was basically my idea, well besides the tony building it, not cheap to ship a 650lb long block from az to Tennessee
Thank guys for the video! U just saved someone ALOT of headaches! Clean and inspect everything..even if it's new! You just never know when shit like that going to show up. 5min worth of not cleaning would have resulted in lots of work in the end! Sad that the cam manufacturer let that out the door. I had a block come back once with the #7 bored out to
.020 instead of .010 like the rest of the cylinders. I got right to the point of assembly and just wanted to double check everything when I discovered it.. So that was a total saga in my life..and the machinist finally corrected his mistake. but point being bad work by other people can happen anywhere!
wow that a scary scenario ,all your work and money down the drain.im currently building a sbc 383 stroker and this really drives home the need to clean and inspect every single part even if its new out of a box. great catch and heads up thanks tony!!
Great info on the cam, I'm going to build my 392 hemi and very useful thanks
I started to panic when I saw you dig metal shavings out of there and then calmed down when I realized my Oldsmobile doesn't have oiling holes in the cam journals. I did have to clean out all the holes in my crank after it was machined, though.
Thank you Uncle Tony 👍
Good catch, even if it’s your 1000th engine build! A friend of mine does my machine work, he’s very good but he must’ve had a bad day. I was about to bolt on the external oil filter housing on an Olds motor he went through and reassembled for me when I saw grit in the galleys. Like you said UTG, full stop
I hear ya man. This one is pretty extreme, but for me it's always been 2nd nature to check everything, sometimes twice.
Always prime the engine oil pump, turn the crank while priming and make sure oil is reaching all of the top end
I'm so paranoid I even do this when I do head swaps or head gasket work on Hondas. I'll pour oil on every moving part and passage in the head and then disconnect the fuel pump main relay and spin it over until I KNOW and can see there's oil moving up and through the head. I feel this is a great practice even with new cars.
You are SO right. No attention to detail anymore. Used to be we found horsepower looking at details when we had class racing before bracket or index stuff.
Fellow old timer.
That can only Happen because there is no warranty on Nothing any more
Its always a must to deep clean everything including chasing ALL bolt holes.
Great video once again by UTG and what makes this channel so awesome.
I would toss that cam.
Automotive machinist/engine builder here. Inspect and clean EVERYTHING! Trust nothing.
As far as new camshafts go , you also should check for straightness before installation . They are very easily off by 3 to 6 thousands runout between centers and journals but also easily straighten to within a half a thousand or zero run out. Most machineshop should be able to bring them back to spec.
I appreciate you passing on this lesson: Check everything, kids.
Building piston engines for aircraft that could wind up carrying passengers across the frigid Atlantic at night was serious business. I found building racing engines relaxing because if they blew up so what.
Im a young gun and that lesson was told to me by an elder engine builder and car guy, just like you, Tony!
Great lesson, plain and simple.
Funny you should mentions Chrysler cam bearings; The team I was crewing for at the 2001 NHRA 50th Anniversary race at Pomona, had a new bullet in our Top Alcohol Dragster. I pulled my valve cover, right side guy, after the first qualifying pass. The pushrod ends were melted. I mean, blue, mushed over ruined! No big deal, we have a few spares, I replace the worst ones, replace some of the ball end adjuster screws, lube the ends and send it to Q2. It come back worse! Our crew chief (who will remain nameless) blame the inexperienced crew. I proceed to 'trick or treat' through the pits, find another team with a tall deck BAE Hemi and raid their spares drawer in their trailer. I find what I need, reassemble the top end, and this time, I insist we fire the engine wo/ the valve cover. Guess what? My crew shirt remains as dry as a nun's center section, if you know what I'm sayin'. We swap short blocks, our weekend goes from bad to worse, we pack up tail between our legs and go home. Turns out someone installed the wrong cam bearings, or installed the right ones incorrectly in the short block. Not-so-fun times
Thank you, great practical advice
This video is why I'm a subscriber.
I had a Lunati flat tappet installed in my 383 chev no issue and I've heard nothing but good things
I've gotten 2 Lunati cams in the past year, and they were both spotless right out of the box. Maybe I was just lucky, or their quality control is actually doing their jobs. Either way, they've earned my repeat business from the experiences i've had with them directly
Always clean and check. The amount of file sharing and quality control issues is just going up with parts now a days
Fastidious inspection of every part is as important to successful building as every other step. It can’t be overlooked.
Modern production capabilities such as the cubic boron nitride grinding wheel can give high material removal without thermal damage. However, the shape of the metal debris removed can be different from the debris produced using the grinding wheels of yesteryears.
These curly strands of debris will get pushed into holes etc. where it used to be dust getting pushed in. Old style grinding dust will wash or blow out, CBN curly strands get stuck as we see Tony fight with the welding rod to clear the passage.
New technologies require new techniques we can’t always maintain practices from other methods.
Great going there Uncle Tony 👍🏻
Interesting points there.
I have a camshaft from Trickflow in my 440. I have not started it but it is installed. I ran my oil pump via drill to make sure I was getting oil up top. ( also turned crank by hand some to let other oil holes purge)
I never knew to check these holes and have installed a few cams. It makes sense, especially with QC issues today. We will see how mine holds up, as it is too late most likely for me.
This is perfect timing for me. I’m just starting my Cherokee 4.7 stroker build! Thanks for this video!
You should video it man! I'd like to see an Average Joe build on one of those. Heck I even sent you an insensitive there to get you started (you know one person will watch it with that sub lol)
@@BareRoseGarage , hey barerose…haha, I’ll give it a shot on doing a video series! 😂, can’t be too tough with a GoPro I have around the house.
258 crank, no overbore?
@@titaniumman_22 sweet
@@ScottKenny1978, .060 and yes on the 258!
I bought a Comp Cams camshaft for my 76 350 chevy . . . third times a charm, I guess. UPS must have drug them up the dirt road to my house or something. The first one came in 3 pieces, the second in 2 pieces and the third was actually in tact. Seems like they needed practice !
We always blow the oil holes out before assembling our junk. Lesson only needed learnt once. Pipe cleaners too.
Great catch!
Wow great catch.
Great catch! Can’t wait to hear about what else you find on that cam!
Good rules Tony. You can't trust anyone when it comes to putting a motor together, even yourself. Check, double check and then check again. Just because you bought an expensive, big name part doesn't mean somebody involved in making that part wasn't having a bad day and screwed up.
Great videos Tony!
I always also check my Order at every fast food place while going through drive through orders. In-N-Out is the only one that I have not had issues with.
Sigh, here we go again. It's bad business when you have to check everything and take nothing for granted. Unfortunately, this is what happens when companies take out the "car guys" (and gals) from their staff and add in bean counters. When you put quantity over quality, this is what happens. I saw a lot of this first hand in the the automotive parts world, as I worked for a manufacturer for over a decade.
One time, there was a strike in the factory and they asked the office folks to help out in the factory making parts. So, I volunteered. They were showing us how to make GM 8 cylinder HEI distributor caps. The foreman is showing us how to stake the terminals and use the machine that stakes them in place, etc. He does a few and he's ready to show us. I look at one in the finished goods bin and I said, "Wait a minute. That one only has seven terminals staked in place". I guess that's the "fuel saving" version of the GM HEI 8 cylinder cap? LOL.
Sure anyone can make a mistake, and I don't think a bad distributor cap would have caused engine damage like this camshaft example would, but the lesson/moral is the same: Cut out the people that make sure your product works in the field and you'll eventually cut out your profit, as well as your business from the ring. I had a boss that said, "I don't need car guys, I need data guys". I quipped, "No you need both in one person. Otherwise you have half of an employee. And people that have both don't come cheap. You reap what you sow".
As I have commented before, it's bad, bad, bad, bad business when we've come to this as a country and a society. You're almost better off with used parts in some cases than brand new in the box. You can't seem to trust much lately, it's terrible.
We are on the "Highway to Hell" with parts quality. That's true. We used to think it was one manufacturer, but yes, as Bon Scott said further, 'and all of my friends are going to be there too". That is, when you thought only one company was bad news, you get surprised when the "best" names in the business let you down too.
before Microsoft named its programs rather than giving them numbers, the joke was, "At Microsoft getting the product to market is Job One. Getting the program right is Job 1.2". but they did get to market fast enough to become the 800lb gorilla.
@@albertgaspar627 You're right, but at the end of the day, it still works. Not the case with this camshaft. LOL.
Good observation, my dad went through that as a machinist years ago, they were breathing down his neck to speed up: "I've been doing this for 40 years, when I make a part, they don't get sent back here for a re-do". By the time quality control is obviously a lost cause, the bean counters have pocketed their bonus and gone on their merry way to screw up the next operation. Another observation is that there are a lot of people who don't seem to care anymore, not just the kid at his first job, or people who are just there for a paycheck. Late for appointments, appointments cancelled without notification, bad information, shoddy work etc. I've even seen this at my medical plan and friends have had the same problems, mostly with doctors' administrative workers. But it makes you wonder what's going on if you have to go in for a serious procedure. It seems like things became worse over the years, I partly blame it on lowered expectations and the bar being set lower as far as education and training.
@@dalab9716 That's right. It pervades more than just auto parts. People sometimes just don't care. Even if you want to do a good job or buy a good quality item, sometimes it just doesn't exist.
@@googleusergp true. Microsofts' first attempts worked for 90% of the buying public who used 50% of it :)
thank you for the wisdom big dog
Great informational video!
Good catch Tony , and well worth sharing.
This goes with any engine doesn't matter if a buddy built it or professional engine shop take it completely apart double check "everything"
Wow thank you
Great advice
Chrysler used to make such badass engines makes me want a 318/340
Good eye Uncle Tony!!