Avoid Failure! Camshaft And Lifter Wear Patterns - What They Mean And How They Are Established
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- čas přidán 20. 09. 2022
- Lobe taper, lifter crown, valve train weight and oil distribution all contribute to the unique wear pattern that mates all solid and hydraulic flat tappets to their respective cam lobes.
Here's a rundown of the various forces at work, and how you can visually read a cam to make sure it's break-in went well, and it will live a long, healthy life.
#classiccar #musclecar #engines
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I work at a high school technical center. Your information is perfect for the kids to comprehend. Also, just short enough to keep their attention. You make everything very easy to understand. I’m in my mid 50’s and grew up with all of what you are teaching. I especially like that everything you teach is universal. I’m a Buick guy and I have thought back for several years now.. “ hmm what did Tony say”.. thanks for your time man.
Ever thought about missing oil thrower paddles on aftermarket conrods? Original GM Small Block rods have so called Splashers that throw oil on the cam lobes, most aftermarket rods dont have these oil throwers
As the elder Boomers are aging out and the youngsters are moving in you should do videos like this. How to READ stuff, bearings, gears, etc... and those of us still invested in HotRodding love the content as well.
His stuff is so easy to watch. As someone who was out of the hobby for a time for reasons, it’s like the easiest to understand refresher courses I’ve ever had. He keeps his explanations simple and backs up most of what he shows with physical examples of the how and why.
426 hemi/440RB's are actually off set by about 1/16' back ( on top of original usage of a crowning on the lifter's ) on the cam vs lifter's i know because i measured it for my roller viper-cam style im using
More than 40 years ago I bought a 68 Chevy truck from a garage that acquired it with a mechanics lean. What happened was they put in a used engine supplied by the owner and it ran like crap. They told him the cam was bad and what it would cost to replace it. The owner didn't want to put that kind of money into a 15 year old truck but also refused to pay for the work already done. I bought it by paying off the amount owed thinking I was going to need to replace the engine. My father in law owned a garage. When we checked about 4 lifters had no tension against the rocker, "very early Chevy 350" But my father in law noticed that when the engine turned over the push rod moved as much as ones that seemed normal almost like the pushrods were too short.. Pulled and measured, all the same length, started pulling lifters. All were fine except the 4 in question had wore clear through to the hydraulic center. My father in law ordered another set of lifters. We dropped them in adjusted the lifters and the engine ran fine. No smoke no noise. I ran it for another 12 years and sold it for a lot more than it cost me to buy it.
Don't care if you got another 12 years out of it. You do not put new lifters on a used cam. Period.
@@daveo532 New lifters are put on used cams all the time. All you do is act like a new cam break in.. Run the engine at about 2500 for half an hour an very the speed up or down 200 rpm. If there would have been a problem it would have showed up. It was not a high performance engine so the valve springs tension was not very high and we readjusted the valves after break in. We put other used cams in without problems. I put a used cam with higher lift in my 289 mustang motor out of a 351. There wasn't any problem. Just had to change the firing order.
Change lifters all the time. No biggie.
@@daveo532 I think you got it backwards buddy you never put used lifters on a new cam..
I thought I knew a fair bit about cams and lifters, and their operational dynamics, but man oh man, there's a lot of good info here that I'd never even considered. Thanks for the great lecture, Tony, you are a true master.
Good Stuff! I've been building motors for over 30+ Years and actually learned something I didn't know...The reversed tapers on a properly ground "A series" MOPAR motor. Myself, I build GM motors these days, specifically Z/28 302/LT-1 motors. The last LT-1 I built I wanted it to "run a little better" than OEM, called up Bullet Cams and ordered a couple of UltraDyne solid flat tappet lobes I always liked. The OEM GM solid lifter came in 2 types, the "piddle valve" and "edge orifice" type that cuts top end oiling by about 15-20%...Fun Fact the majority of late 60's solid lifter HP motors had the "585" series edge orifice in them. I was running roller rockers and didn't need the full oiling. The OEM GM lifters have a stellite hard face on them, they are far better than anything else ouside of a tool steel lifter and the best for long term street reliability... the last time they were sold through Gm they ran about $32 each,this was in the late 1980's!!! Not cheap. I had a 302 Z/28 motor that had some in it with less than 5,000 miles on them. I sent them off to a service that would re-radiuus the lifters...Guy said I might be better off going with a 100inch radius rather than the 120inch that was OEM specs....I called Bullet Cams and asked them....Yes! They said that would be better, so today after 20,000 miles, the 70 LT-1 just ran 12.98@109MPH through the mufflers and on street tires....TKO600 5 speed with steep 1st gear helps get the job done. Not bad for an old "dinosaur" without EFI or computers....Does have a factory breakerless ignition, and ported "186" heads, factory intake and 0.030 overbore....better rods and 10.5:1 lower compression.
Very interesting. I saw a video tour of a small cam regrinder in Tacoma a few years ago. They said they not only regrind stock cams, but reface stock lifters as well! They said factory lifters, reground, are much more reliable than the offshore crap sold nowdays! I'd never heard of reground LIFTERS before then, or since...until now.
I'm 65 almost 6. I used to wrench on my vehicles out in the backyard all the time back in the 70's. Mom told me once she asked dad to go out and help me (WW2 military mechanic) she said that's how he learned. 40 something years later, thanks uncle Tony ! Very informative.
I raced 340 Super Stock in the 70's. I knew about the cam taper but not about lobes being ground to cancel out the thrust. Thanks for teaching a old racer something new!😀
All I got out of this video is confirmation that Uncle Tony is a sorcerer dealing with black magic of the highest order.
Absolutely brilliant video Tony!!
This is why I love you and your content so much dude, you don't just talk about things, you KNOW about things. The taper being a part of harmonising the cam shaft when off throttle... Genius! Its stuff like this that I just love. Superb stuff, thank you very much for all your work dude!
Uncle Tony: “heavy duty gear head nerd stuff”
Me: leans in closer and turns up the volume
My uncle's engine of choice in his race boat was Australian Chrysler hemi 6, but he kept breaking oil pump drives due to non retained cam in early version. Fortunately he worked in the local Chrysler factory, so his boat became a R & D rig.
Hit the nail on the head again Tony! Love how you break down these tiny details and make the knowledge accessible. Entertaining and informative. Thank you!
I love this nerdy stuff! I also love learning the little intricate stuff like the taper is actually ground on opposite sides of the lobes to help with cam endplay! That's awesome! They really thought of everything when building these engines back in the day.
if you're going to do this then you may as well do rear end ring gear wear patterns! anybody who's built a rear-end knows that they show you 50 different wear patterns when you apply that yellow paint some that are acceptable some that aren't but I'd like to get your input on this and take a look at a ring gear that has a hundred plus thousand miles on it!
Im 75 and just learned something from this vid. Im peggys hubby, and build hot rod engines, and have learned so much from you , andy, and david vizard ! Keep doing these vids. !
I learned my lesson. I grew up in the 70s in Detroit. I grew up seeing all of the best muscle cars. Fast forward 40+ years. I bought a 1978 Trans Am. I didn't do my research. I was just a kid in the 70s. I used oil without zinc. I blazed through my Cam within two summers of driving. I had my engine rebuilt completely and went back with a somewhat radical Cam and headers. I now run the correct oil w/zinc and I am heading into my 3rd year since rebuilding the engine. And.....I continue to watch UTG to learn more and more.
47 years old and have always been an old car/pickup guy. I’ve always been intimidated by this stuff. You make it easy and enjoyable to learn.
This is about the best video on how to be a ninja I’ve ever seen no one has covered the topic of lectures wear patterns. In 16 minutes one can teach shop class professionally outstanding work Tony
I love this stuff. Uncle Tony, if you'd do an automatic transmission disassembly while naming each parts function I would be tickled. Then reassemble part by part. If that's too much to ask, then how about doing a shift kit install whilst explaining how it improves shift performance and why. There's plenty of videos on that subject but I retain the info better when I hear it from you... Thanks, Little Mike
Very informative video. A video like this showing how to read crank & rod bearings would be great too, if you ever get a chance.
There's so many details that seem trivial but are really foundational to understanding what we're trying to do with our cars. You keep teaching me stuff I didn't know I needed to know
I recently pulled the cam out of a AMC 360 after a 25 MINUTE CAM BREAK IN . 15 nos flat tappet lifters and 1 China lifter . The China lifter did not servive. I spent a bit of time looking at the cam ware patterns and could definitely see all of the wear patterns that you talked about on this type of cam style. Your vids are in sink with my build progress. New cam and lifters on the way. Johnson hylift lifters, made in michigan coming with the new cam . I'm that nerd
I looked at the website, and it seems they only make roller lifters. I wonder why people can't make solid lifters anymore. It seems it would be simple to take a bar of the right material, machine it to size and machine (or grind?) a taper on the face.
Hey Tony,
Tim here, altho i know about the wear patterns, and lifter spinning, i LOVE gearhead nerd stuff!!!!!...i am a gearhead nerd!!!!!...ur vid was spot on, concise, and usefull for all them youngbloods......enjoyed it......u can make a gearhead nerd vid EVERYDAY as far as i'm concerned...hahaha.....good stuff...PEACE to you sir!!
More nerd stuff! Thank you sir! This is exactly what ppl like i need. Some tuner guy told me my cam was shot but could not explain me why he came to that. I now know he just wanted to sell me a new one.
Personally, this is the type of stuff I watch your channel for. I like the tech videos best.
Factory cams for thrust plate engines used to be configured so that one lifter would usually be forward, the next in the valve opening sequence, intake or exhaust, would be the opposite, back, then front, back etc.
Thanks Tony for the super informative cam tutorial, I learned a tremendous amount. Pictures with words is golden! Well you are at 100F, we've got 50F in NE PA, I'd take my temps any day! Have a good one Tony!
These videos do help demystify the issues with camshafts that I keep reading and hearing about. I think they went back to non-tapered camshafts for some newer USA overhead cam engines. I have a 2007 2.0L Ford Focus duratec, and it has flat tappets. I am pretty sure I read that they are offset to keep them rotating, but do not recall 100%. By the way, as far as modern USA engines go, I think that the 3.0l Ford duratec (like in the 1996 Taurus) and the 2.0L Ford Duratec (Like in the USA Focus) are pretty good. I have about 295 thousand miles on my 2007 Focus with manual transmission. Though I did remove the intake tumble flaps.
I’m currently installing a CompCams “Thumper cam” in my Chevy 350, a little nervous about break in but really excited to see the results!
I got 6qts of CompCams break in oil and then for the oil to run after that I got Lucas “hot rod” oil that has the added zinc for old school engines
Use the silver never sieze on cam and lifters for break in do not get any on the sides of your lifters they need to rotate 15 min 3000 rpm change oil.
Don't be timid on the startup.
Once it fires up and you don't see gushing fluids in 10 seconds ,bring the revs up to 2000-2500 to get those lifters spinning and proceed.
Good stuff 👍 something on oil control inside the engine, pros & cons windage trays etc would be good !
I learned something new! Makes me really lean toward roller next engine I put together. I loved the little truth bomb about the zinc pennies as many people still think they are a copper alloy as they were before 1982. Great video again!
Every gear head should know and understand this great video!
This is absoposolutely the best instructional video! thank you Uncle Tony!
Good info. I always enjoy your tech vids, because of how you explain stuff. I have such a hard time explaining these to "normal" people, and end up way over their head lol
Interesting. I knew about the taper on the cam and of course why it's there but never really paid attention to the difference between how it's done on different blocks or manufactures.
I love this kind of detail. Enhancing the understanding of how things work and why some work well while others do not. Great insight, Tony. I have shared this and the Hemi camshaft issue video, as well as saving them to my archives. Keep them coming...us gearheads love, want, and need them. Thank you for doing what you do
Agreed 👍
Have you noticed other channels, how they seem to be showing off their knowledge more than they're trying to help the viewers understand? They may not be deliberately doing that but it seems that way to me.
One additional source of lube is the rod side clearance .Always check this when building your engine and err on the larger size . I"ve run up to .030 side clearance on a mostly street build with less than 450 hp. I also use a lifter galley shield that has 3 functions . 1- keeps hot oil off the bottom of the intake, 2- helps keep oil around the lifters and 3- helps retain the lifter incase of a push rod failure. Also ,when building the engine always check the lifter bore with a new lifter before you have any machine work done . Make sure it spins freely ! this way you can tell your machine shop weather to hone the lifter bores or not { or just give them the lifters }. One last thing , before assembly , slide the new cam in and make sure it goes all the way in ! Sometimes blocks have a core shift from the factory .I found this out on a 1968 440 block. I took it to a shop and they confirmed it and used a cam bearing cutter to take a couple of thousandths off. Hope this helps a few people.
Zinc very important. But the oil manufacturers took it out a few decades ago. That's why I always add about 3oz of Lucas assembly lube when I do an oil change. I have a dodge ram with the 5.7 Hemi which are supposed to eat lifters. I have over 160K miles with no issue's. I credit that to the zinc. Also have a 98 Nissan frontier with 300+K miles and it runs like a top.
I started running royal purple HPS in all my older cars,even the diesels.
Hemi engines did have lifter issues on some but it wasn’t a ZDDP related problem. All your SP engine oils have approximately 700-800ppm of ZDDP which is more than sufficient for any stock roller cam engine. It is woefully lacking for old school flat tappet cams whether stock or not.
I love failure analysis, that's the best stuff ever.
I got my license in 1987. I had lots of camshaft problems. Lost a lobe on my 20r Toyota, the 302 in my 79 ltd,a1973,340,a 318 I used while the 340 was out, too many 350 Chevies to remember. One finally got a blue racer cam that was advertised as having more slope to help the lifters spin. Also a 345 international ate a lobe.
That was cool! Most tech talk bores me to no end but this one kept me locked in until the end.
I wish I could explain it as clearly as you do
Just love this kind of information! Thanks Tony! Reminds me of your air scoop video. Fantastically interesting to me and others , I’m sure!
UTG, I never stop learning things from you. Great channel!
Excellent video Tony. This is stuff I never even thought about. You are brilliant and you know so much. Please, keep sharing, I love it.
That was a very cool video, Uncle Tony.
More great information thanks Tony
Ohhh Tony! You came sooooo close to having the world's first Stunt Cam!
Who still remembers in the 80's when GM had soft camshafts .
Got into wrenching towards the end of that.
Diagnosed one once ,and not seeing some valves open as much as others, called the boss over to ask wtf and he chuckled.
Easy diagnosis. If you revved one and it backfired on decel it was camshaft time.
Great show uncle!
This is my favorite type of UTG content, thanks for sharing.
great video UT!
Nice video UTG! Great information! 🤩🤩🤩🤩
I love this content. I could listen to these bits of knowledge for hours.
Outstanding video !
Might be motorhead nerd stuff, but it's very important motorhead nerd stuff. Thank you for another very informative video UT.
Good video, nice work. Thanks.
Correct on the lobe taper and lofter crown. But every flat tappet 6cyl and 8cyl USA and Aussie based engine I have built uses some lobe to lifter centerline offset. On inspection during build mock up if there is insufficient offset thus gets corrected in one of many mannors depending on how many need attention. Sometimes playing with thrust plate and shimming it as well as machining the timing set or cam to move the entire cam back or forth or narrowing a lobe(requires re heat treating) or lifter bore machine an resleeve to get offset.
Roller cams do show a wear pattern and can give clues as to condition because the roller wheel face on the lifter is not flat, it has a slight crown just like a flat tappet but in the case of a roller this is to stop the sides of the roller wheel from ripping into the lobe due to the lifter having some rotational movement either side of its capture by dogbone, link bar, key way, tray etc and to allow for lifter bores that are not quite perfectly in line with the lobe.
stunning video mate...
Awesome video, loved it.
Thanks Tony, that was very helpful. The other topic was valve guide seal. Teflon its what my brother used back in 82' on 77' 351mod. 400 heads. Economy performance cam. holly 650 dbl pumper. I saw your vid where you covered it. A company makes them now. It prevent the morning puff of smoke from the drain down on an older motor.
Very educational, thank you for explaining it so well
I was asking for this very thing, thanks Tony!
This information is quite impressive, definitely something I didn't know, excellent video, thanks, all the best to you and your loved ones
Great video, you have a knack, thanks for making it.
Awsome tech tips thankscfor sharing
Thanks for the informative lesson! Please consider doing more on cams, like lift and duration and what that boils down to in practice, with different rocker ratios. 👍👍👍
Super informative, thank you for the great content
Fascinating! Thanks.
Another excellent vid ! Learned a lot ! thanks !
Have you ever built a “balanced and blueprinted” engine and weighed everything out and got it perfectly balanced? Does it produce more power or is it more to reduce vibrations and try to increase longevity?
Balancing and blue printing would add life to the bottom end to an extent. But it would take a magical machinist to calculate the twist of each engine block and machine it for the twist that individual block produces under load. It would also need to be disassembled by that same machinist, in order to see the imperfections that the old parts had fingerprinted into them from the previous mileage put on that block. Block twist would be hard to control the wear of cams and lifters unless you could regrind your cam custom to your blocks twisting problems. All V8 have twisting issues.
That's where shade tree mechanics doing their own work could possibly do the footwork and make "iron blocks" better than they were. By actually taking the time from teardown to assembly. Most machine shops aren't concerned at all above what box you checked on your order.
They can make a bit more power, but the main goal in my experience for balancing and blueprinting is to do everything possible to reduce harmonics/torsional stress on rotating parts to increase longevity in a motor thats gonna be leaned on HARD (big power, big rpm's, hard use etc.)
Had my big block olds balanced, it's smooth as glass. Worth it, IMO! Would it have been just as smooth? Maybe, but I wanted to make certain because I had no idea if parts had been mixed and matched (flywheel, damper?), it was getting new pistons for the 0.060 rebore. Just making sure, while it was apart.
Also, I commissioned the machine shop to assemble it, not that much more and I felt obliged to support the business. I think he did a great job, no startup rattle, perfect oil pressure, etc. Couldn't be happier.
If the machine shop sucks, you're done and so are your parts.
It can free up a little HP but is more for longevity especially during extended periods of WOT and high RPM . That's why balancing and blueprinting is more prevalent in racing .
Harmonic vibrations perfect kill . . ask chopper pilots
Great video enjoyed every minute thanks.
Thank's Tony, answered questions I didn't know to ask...
UT, another excellent educational video.
😎👍
Very good video thank you!
ANOTHER GREAT VIDEO TONY. THUMBS 👍! I Learned something new. Thanks for sharing .👍
I learned quite a bit. Thanks U. Tony
Great content! Would you please explain the relationship between decelaration of the engine and cam pushed at front? Thanks!
Love it Tony give us more !
Tony....LOVE the content!
Most people don't relize that this info applies to modern engines including that OHC/DOHC I took my 95 Saturn Twin Cam apart with 90,xxx to modify. Note I ran oil without zinc. Upon inspection, the cams had bad wear. No tapper wear look to the cam. It uses a flat style tappet, (called a bucket) that sits between the cam and valve tip. The crown was now a concave. It will get a zinc rich oil or additive.
Thanks. Tony again for sharing your wealth of knowledge. Regards from Australia 🇦🇺
In 15 minutes I learned more about the cam and lifter interactions than watching all other videos including tv videos. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Thanks Tony! I learned a lot.
The part about the Helical gear leading/lagging & pushing/pulling was an "Ah-Hah!" moment - Thanks Uncle Tony!
This example is a big one that my daily driver, a 1977 Buick Regal with a 350-H with over 310k miles on it this is how I drive it and I’ve converted the RGS-2 carburetor to manual choke and I’ve installed remote oil cooler and engine oil filter assembly with a lot of oil lines for the installation. In the morning cold start I watch the oil pressure closely and bring the rpm up gradually to 1,500rpm this procedure happens in probably less then 60 sec. Then I hold the engine at 1,500 rpm for 1 to 2 minutes then backdown to maybe 1,209 for a minute or so. A lot of this depends on the time of year. Now I’ll talk about curb idle settings. Factory is 750 in gear 850 out of gear; to me that’s to slow and also effects engine oiling. About 99% of my driving is in-city. With long wait times at traffic lights ; some as much as 2 minutes. So I’ve set my curb idle out of gear to 950 rpm which has a positive effect on oil pressure. Every stoplight I’m at I will shift the transmission into neutral as I’m waiting for the light to change, then slam it into drive when the light turns green. Sometimes I will raise the idle at a stoplight to 1,100 rpm if I feel need be. All this happens real fast and I’ve been doing it for years. It’s become automatically for me. One thing if your wondering about my transmission????. The car from the factory and I’ve had rebuilt is a TH400, with a transco level 2 shift kit and a high stall converter. So it goes into gear real fast. All this is about maintaining better oil splash lubrication at low engine rpm.Also I use valvoline VR-1 racing oil faithfully. My engine is one happy smooth running motor on valvoline oil. It doesn’t matter what it is my engines run smoother on valvoline motor oils and I’ve used them for decades.
I am a motorhead nerd LoL I have been inspecting cams and lifters for years when I take down an engine. Wear patterns fascinate me LoL.
THANK YOU I NEEDED THIS INFORMATION.
Thanks Tony....that was very interesting, I love all the nerdy stuff I never learned.
Gotta luv the gearhead monk....luv the topic I always learn something new with UT....never a dull video or topic with this guy. The cams survived the video...lol.
LOVE the nerd stuff Tony! Keep ‘em coming!
Thanks so much Tony! I never knew all that..
I learned something new! Thanks Tony. I always wondered what made the lifters spin.
This guy's finger has more automotive knowledge than my whole body.
Great video
Thank you!
Well done uncle Tony loved it! Tell uncle Kathy and the guys at the shop I said hi:) have a good day man:)
Wow! I'm only 3:00 into the video and have already learned some great and interesting info! Very good content thank you so much
Thanks tony! 👍
Great Video