should we remove the visual position from kpop?
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- čas přidán 17. 07. 2024
- hey guys, in today's video, we are going to be having a debate! today's topic is: should we remove the visual position from kpop?
I really hope you enjoy this sort of debate style video! If so, please give it a thumbs up and let me know your thoughts in the comments on this topic.
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 Intro & contents
0:44 What does the term "visual" mean? & Examples
2:17 Yes arguments (FOR removing the term, reason 1)
4:09 FOR removing the term visual, reason 2
5:17 FOR removing the term visual, reason 3
6:42 No arguments (AGAINST removing the term), reason 1
8:17 AGAINST removing the term visual, reason 2
9:54 AGAINST removing the term visual, reason 3
11:25 My thoughts on this debate
12:50 Conclusion, the floor is yours! & Outro
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red velvet irene,ive wonyoung,stray kids hyunjin,bts jin,bts v,shinee minho,ateez yeosang,apink naeun,girls generation snsd yoona,twice tzuyu,blackpink jisoo,astro cha eun woo - Věda a technologie
I think K-pop is become so visual focused that the term has become irrelevant, because they are all ridiculously attractive. If you gave me 20 groups and asked me to identify the visual I doubt I’d get half right. 😂
Same bro Same
Agreed, it's become rather pointless if the focus is on visual over talent (or literally anything else).
I think something like face of the group makes more sense.
Exactly! Literally almost the entire group could be visuals nowadays and some members show massive improvement in their looks and confidence over the years (i.e chaeryeong). I think it's meaningless now
Fr. There's no the 'ugly' member anymore that can make all sort of thing that major variety figures always did like ugly expressions or fart or that snort makeup.
Honestly I feel there are less iconic visuals. Like we used to have Irene, Lisa, Yoona, Krystal, Jisoo, Dara, Suzy, Joy, Rose, Tzuyu, Hyuna, Jiyeon, Jennie, Somi and Hara before. Like we already had every Blackpink member being visual material.
there's nothing wrong with it imo if it's not their only role. it irritates me when a member only has visual or maknae as a role as if the only thing they're good at is looking pretty or just being young.
/this
deffo agree with this! it feels oddly undermining to just say somebody's only role in a group can be reflected by their age or physical looks
Ikr,, if it's the fans giving them or just they joking using that as confident boost then it's fine. But just having looks as ur only charm... Should just be models instead 😅
Just for fun, I went through a bunch of my favorite groups to see whether or not they had an official visual member, and it seems like the more recent the group, the less likely they are to have a visual position. Every 3rd gen group I checked had one, but 4th gen groups were maybe 50-50, and there were almost no groups with visual positions from 2022 and 2023. It seems like it might be dying out a bit already.
ooh that's a really interesting idea! I wonder if as time is moving on, people/companies are just expecting all members to be treated as visuals whose job it is to promote the group with their image, rather than highlighting one specific member to give this job to
I think the visual position should be used for when a member has the most fashion sense and modeling promotions because it makes sense
thats fair, i dont like how it often puts one member above the others, but this is a more healthy approach and is more of a passion position, than how it was originally used.
But a lot of idols do that without the "visual" label such as yeonjin of txt.. so we don't really need it imo.
I feel like the two kinda already go hand in hand
@@sliverhalo9286 Imo they really don't though. Like Jisoo is the visual of bp but not at all more involved in fashion or promoting luxury brands.
But Blackpink is a special case because Jisoo is the visual but it is Jennie's visuals who YG promotes in SK no other group is like that@@notaspeck6104
" should we remove the visual position from kpop?"
Well, we can't remove it because that's the way the industry wants it. Personally, I don't care who is visual (because they are all beautiful) or who is the youngest (maknae). I don't care about the center position either, but it at least makes some sense in the group composition. When I read visual for the first time, I had to search for a while before I found out what it was. The funny thing is that sometimes it's not the FOTG (OMG when Jiho was still in the group).
I thought it meant the most old member like BTS visual is Jin, Blackpink visual is Jisoo and Red Velvet visual is Irene who are all the most old members of their groups. But then I saw Sehun was maknea and visual and got confused. That is when I searched up what they actually meant by visual.
@@vixxexo6855Don't forget Tzuyu. She is both the visual and maknae (youngest member) of Twice.
So I’m still kinda new to K-pop, & up until this vid, I legit thought the visual role was meant for someone who is in charge of the creative direction of the music, outfits, music videos etc. I was kinda surprised & disappointed to learn that the visual role means the person who looks most visually appealing.
Well of course a member wouldn't be in charge of that. It would be the company that decides those things
Sadly, many groups aren't given that creative freedom. The groups which are given somewhat of that freedom are Seventeen (Woozi is their producer), BTS (the Rapline and sometimes Jungkook & V producing for them), TXT(Beomgyu and Soobin have helped in the production of some songs). I'd love to have more examples like these!
I think it actually hurts some "Visuals" to be only known as the visual.:
Literally thought of as the pretty/handsome one and not taken seriously
The fandom disagrees and attacks them and creates their own Visual-therefor discrediting the actual visual
When the Visual gets no brand deals or other commercial deals is seen as a filler member-I will use Bts JIN:
The Fandom will actively say he isn't the Visual cause he didn't win some most handsome poll
He has no Brand deals(LV is a group project)
Is often not highlighted in MV and often has minimal lines/Screentime.
Called a Filler member and then solo's will say he didn't attract me to BTS so and so did
Yes have a Visual but not as a main position(i.e Main vocalist/Visual)
We even have Hyunjin and Tzuyu who have stated that they want to be known for their talents over their visuals.
even if a member is in a group, cause the company stuck them in there for their looks, they can still improve. why discourage them and attack them for something they probably have no control over. visual idols are (shocking) still humans capable of improving. What makes me sad and why i would want to remove the term is that (especially girl group) visuals are often bullied out of any personality. While i think some kpop fans need to take a step back in general, i feel like the term visual just puts a target on someones head. If an idol is branded a visual, people are directed to notice their looks and then make a comparison to either other idols looks/ talents or personalities, which just isnt necessary or good for anybody
5:18 the perfect example of this to me is probably zb1. We all know Jiwoong is labeled the visual of the group and for good reason! But the person I see rack in the most simps because of their looks is Ricky, Ricky also isn’t a visual member which shocks so many people and for good reason! Ricky fits international beauty standards much more (doesn’t mean Koreans don’t find him attractive cuz they do)
AOA - it's funny that Seolhyun is the centre and FOTG (the one with so many marketing and endorsement) but she isn't the official visual of AOA. That title went to Hyejeong. FNC had a very interesting way of picking AOA visual.
I will never forget how confused I was as a new kpop fan to read the term visual everywhere because the position doesn`t have anything to do with music or with talent. And i still don`t understand why this position exists. Like Hyunjin said, it`s nothing you work for. When I watched the Stray Kids survival show and they made a live show in the end as a finale and the MC called Hyunjin the visual king (or something like that. I can`t remember but it was something that reduced him to his looks), it was so sad for me to see Hyunjin being mad at the MC to not mention his rapping or dancing skills and just call him Visual. He could easily introduced Hyunjin as "Hyunjin, the dance master" or something like that but instead he just praised his looks. It was awful to see how disappointed Hyunjin was. I guess i would be too in his position. What i also hate about the position is that I personally, if I would have been a trainee for so many years, worked my ass off to debut in a group, just to be told "yes you will be part of the group but not the visual" i would feel so ugly. As a European i know it`s very unlikely for me to be a visual especially because I`m not really pretty. I`m very ugly at fact but if i were an asian trainee, i guess it would hurt me to not be a visual. I guess i would feel so ugly if that makes sense. Especially when i think about how toxic the trainee system is and that you`re always under pressure to be better than everyone else. I don`t want to know how toxic and mean the trainees are to each other and being called pretty or ugly isn`t very helpful i guess.
I´m late to the conversation, but i wanted to say that i really don't care only if the visual is really talented in other aspects, for example Sullyoon from Nmixx (Amazing vocalist) and Yuna from Itzy (Amazing dancer and great performer). On the other hand, we have examples like Jisoo from Blackpink (She is a mid vocalist and a very stiff dancer even after all those years, but she has a really really good stamina), Shuhua from (G)-idle (Bad/Mid vocals, mid dancer and bad performer in their first years, now she has a great stage presence), and Tzuyu from Twice (Mid dancer and mid vocalist, I'm not sure, also she looks bored on stage). So, if an idol is still just a visual (like, the other aspects don't really improve in their next years) I think it's necesary to delete that position, if they improve quickly, i don't care.
I took it for granted that everybody in the group can sing and dance. Therefore, whoever is the best looking one according to Korean beauty standards has an extra bonus that only one idol in that group has - in my mind.
I definitely prefer upfront honesty because every group has a stand out member in western music too. One of the very few exceptions I can think of might be the Spice Girls because all of them had a carefully crafted unique identity so were very distinguishable from each other. I do not recall any arguments about who is more talented, but that doesn’t seem to be a feature of western music fandom. I don’t know if it happens only in K-pop groups that are created through survival shows where fans can vote - so individuals develop their own fan base (this is not the fault of the individual!) which can lead to clashes with other members’ respective fanbases when they become part of a group.
Really good video! Thank you for bringing up this subject and for considering arguments for and against, as well as the Korean perspective and the international perspective. 🙏🧡💜❤️🕺🪩
I think it inevitable to have a member that is considered the visual standout in any given group. I just don't think they should be reduced to just that and not be recognized for their other talents they bring to the group. Love the debate videos you've done. Forever my favorite Ktuber, Fran! 💗🥰✌️
everyone in the industry is so incredibly beautiful now bc kpop is so visual focused. it feels like companies and fans care about looks above things like singing now. the visual position is irrelevant now but so are other positions bc a kpop idol’s only job is to lipsync songs on stage while dancing tbh. you can esp see that bc now a lot of idols debut without any positions at all. in the past this used to mean that they could “do it all” but now it feels like it means no one is good enough a singing to be main vocal
I don't think removing it will do anything, fans will still assign someone the visual position
I personally agree with your opinion on the topic it is simple and that is what I would say on this topic
I love these discussion type videos!
yayy thank you so much!💖
As someone who ult group that debut before visual position even exist, I vouch they can survive without the position. As many people said here, it bring harm to the member who hold the visual position. Especially for those who didn't attract people to their group because, ain't visual should be the one who attract most people? That'd be so humiliated
Having subjective lables make potential for marketing broader.
But belonging to any tag like the funny one or the preetiest make it easier to get to know the group.
People will always find who they want to do modeling work.
If a visual member have less skill, it was a decition of the company, but a tought place for the person to always be compared to other members and the industry and trying to catch up to " earn" their place.
my opinion is that yeah visual os important but talent is more important. if a group has a line of visual members and the rest of the members are just talent focused would be great
🤔🤔 my opinion on the visual role fluctuates a lot, for now i appreciate both sides of it but mainly as an extra aspect to who that member is instead of just being known as the only member thats good looking cuz nowadays all the groups' members neeed to look attractive to someone who chooses to consume kpop (ofc for marketing reasons lol)
Love your quick look into the pros and cons of the visual role within kpop and the various nuances with the visual role! Hope you have an amazing day 💕💕
Yes arguments
reason 1: I think regardless of if we have the position or not the culture and the comments towards the visual member would be the same especially since the comments and culture are just a reflection of everyday life. The existence of pretty privilege isn't going to go away if we stop pointing it out
reason 2: completely agree it is toxic very much in that aspect but also the other group members should be able to display maturity and to have the perspective that beauty is not everything and that beauty comes in many forms. I think this concern for the other members is valid but its not that deep yk. I think it's important to note the group members are only pitted against each other by solo stans which are not the reflection of the group as a whole. The majority of fans may have a bias and/or bias wrecker but they love the group as a whole. Where you get that toxic solo stan culture is in groups like Blackpink where its a reflection of how the company has marketed them. If they had more group activities the fandom would be less toxic in that aspect
reason 3: While Kpop has grown in popularity in the west. The main reason why many in the west like kpop is for kpop being kpop so if we start to westernize it then you loose the charm of what so many international fans like about kpop thats its KOREAN pop not western pop
No arguments
reason 1: I completely agree and I think being the visual should be treated as a position because it could bring so much to the group. I am not liking the recent trends of not giving groups official positions because it just makes the group come off as disorganized in my opinion. I also think that the visual position should be toned down it should not be treated with the same importance as a main vocalist or main rapper
reason 2: Kinda what I have already talked about with the reason 1 under the Yes arguments. I do think its important to be able to acknowledge and speak on such topics
reason 3: this is just a great point I don't really have anything to add
Addressing your thoughts:
I completely agree. I like the idea of a visual position but as I've stated before it should not be treated on the same level as a main vocalist or a main dancer.
My thoughts:
I think a lot of the main issues that have arose with the visual position have really become greater as kpop as gone global. The visual position was only really viewed as controversial when more international fans have gotten into kpop and not understanding the cultural context it has really ruined the position. I think companies have not do a good job making it clear what the position was originally for. I also think with the recent trend of not having group positions and with the 4th generation often having several members that could be the "visual" have really just ruined the position overall.
Conclusion:
My thoughts on this are that while I support and see the value in having the visual position on top of lead rapper, sub vocalist, etc. The culture surrounding it has become so toxic you might as well remove it at this point. The original value is far gone with how the recent culture has been. What needs to happen is that the position needs to be reinvented and brought back to why the term was originally used
I think kpop fans should be much more honest with themselves when it comes to the Visual position. Kpop itself relies heavily on non-human visuals to appeal to audiences and capture the attention of potential new fans. From the music videos, promotional photo shoots, photo cards, etc, companies are setting out to attract attention. Think of your first time watching a kpop mv - you were awed weren’t you?
Once you get to the human visual element, your attention is further grabbed. There’s multiple conventionally attractive people in one group, in a visually appealing setting, posing or dancing in a way that is designed to captivate your attention. You probably wouldn’t be as into it if every member had a blurred out face and you could only lean on their talent because the visual element enhances everything we’re processing. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we’re creatures stimulated by the things in our environment that we find attractive.
As for the Visual position, that person’s looks would probably be the center of conversation around them whether the position existed or whether their company assigned them the title. Eunwoo doesn’t have to be called the official Visual for his looks to overshadow his talents. Hyunjin doesn’t have to be called the official Visual to realize that some talents are earned while others are innate.
As for the talent vs visual conversation- I’m reminded of that show Soyeon was a judge where the audience preferred the cuter, more physically attractive girls who objectively could use much more vocal practice than the less visually appealing girls who had no trouble performing while hitting the correct notes. Soyeon called the audience out for their blatant engagement in lookism that I think many kpop stans are guilty of. While it’s not kind to say that certain people are talentless, I do have to ask if not for the visuals of some idols (or even western celebrities) would their level of performance/singing/dancing ability otherwise be acceptable? Or are we lowering the bar because “at least they’re pretty”?
I also want to ask is it really the Visual position that’s the problem or the insecurity that it inspires in its detractors? It could be personal insecurity or assumed insecurity for the other members in the group who aren’t given the title. Does eliminating the role make you feel that you’re leveling the playing field for yourself and/or your favorite member who isn’t the Visual? I think this video could explore a little further.
The visual position does more harm than good to the idol who has the position, imo. Whether a idol that has the visual position is very talented or not, their talents are barely if ever praised. If a visual debuted with little to no talent or average at best, but they start improving down the line, their improvement is barely, if ever, praised. Only their visuals are the topic of discussion and their face or body is the only thing they're praised for regardless of what they have to offer and what they bring to their group's table or on the flipside, antis love referring to visual idols as only visuals no matter how talented the idol in question is. Now, I know not all visuals are bothered by this, but I can only imagine how annoying and frustrating that must be, to only be seen for your face and body and not your talent. That's why I believe the visual position shouldn't exist. Any position that has nothing to do with talent shouldn't exist really, but that's just my opinion.
I think regardless of having the position or not the same culture would still exist. It's just more apparent
I never understood visual position in kpop and I can't stop thinking about HongBin from VIXX, all he heard was how good he looked, nothing about how good a singer or dancer he is because he was amazing, yes he's hot but there's more to him than that, so I'm sorry that the visual position should just be scrapped
Honestly I know visual is supposed to be the face of the group, but I can't see it most of the time. There was a group I followed from 2012 to 2017. They had a visual who was the least talented individual I have ever heard. Can't rap, can't sing, most likely can't dance. It also didn't help that he broke the law. More than once. I never liked him to begin with, and honestly thought either the main dancer or the main vocal was the visual. They were honestly more attractive to look at.
Most of the YES reasons are rational decision or after thoughts where NO reasons are real situations and easy to work with. So, like it or not, visual will stay.
Txt once said.
"It's just up to your preferences who the visual is" 😂
(There's no set visual role in the grp so)
I think it should be removed cause its inherently disrespectful to the other members. They're all expected to conform to ridiculous standards anyway, and when you pick out "the most visually appealing" one, the others are automatically being compared. You can't pick someone as being the "most" anything without automatically placing the others below them. That's got to sting. There's no way it doesn't bother the other members cause the industry places huge value on visuals.
I'm with Hyunjin on that one with the addition that defining visual as someone who best fits Korean beauty standards adds pressure to the idols about how they look at all times which can erode their mental health.
(I also think that official positions are great for trainees and rookie groups, but as a group settles into the industry, they are no longer necessary, aside from leader of course)
yes! winning the genetic lottery or having money for the best plastic surgeons out there is not a personal achievement or talent like singing or dancing. also idols are on average more attractive than the average joe schmo on the street, so giving a specific label for that makes no sense, and like you said audiences from other countries will often disagree with korea’s assessment. for example, jin from bts is seen as the visual in korea while audiences in the west view V as the most attractive member of bts on average
This is a point with like, actual contention, but I really like """filler"""" members in a kpop group.
I mean that as in; sure theyre not main dancer, rapper or singer, maybe theyre not even secondary, but it still gives them a role to play. Visual, face, maknae, they all have roles that they do to get eyes on the group in general, and thats just as important as being the best singer.
like you said, it gets eyes and ears on the music! This is another video entirely, but I really don't like to see "any member in this kpop group could be the main singer / dancer / rapper of any other kpop group in the industry" its incredibly rude, not only to other groups but to the members themselves. It discredits anything else they might actually be good at.
Sorry for the off topic rant lmao, and also the Dino Visual Ranking clip made me laugh a lot, lets not go back to the trenches.
Kpop fans aren't attracted to music more than they are attracted to the visuals
Os grupos agora estão debutando todos com plásticas para que todos sejam visuais
A lot of visuals of groups also have the best facial expressions, fun to watch onstage (different from being the most skilled dancer, if they aren't) or offstage, and/or are usually at least one of the (deliberately) funniest members. All of these qualities translate well to acting in some way.
EDIT: Also kind of a hot take, but sometimes the centres fit the concept the best or are just louder. That doesn't mean they're better performers. I'm a "the devil is in the details" person.
I think you're mistaking visual with center or face of the group
@@hurryhurryhurryhurry I can think of at least a couple of visual members who are not the most popular member and aren't the face of the group. This is more the case for groups from smaller companies, but most popular example is Jisoo from Blackpink.
being charismatic and being a good actor are two different things. Charisma is when people are just drawn to you meanwhile acting is being able to transform yourself into a completely new person
I think the center position people like Jungkook from BTS, Somi from IOI, Nayeon from Twice, Ryujin from Itzy and Kai from EXO are known for their stage presence. However sometimes the visual can also be the center like Karina from Aespa, Taeyong from NCT, Yoona from Girls Generation and Heejin from Loona. But it is the position center that have best stage presence.
@@vixxexo6855 hot take but I disagree. Sometimes the members who are the most skilled performance wise are not centres. The people in the centre are just louder lol
no wtf
Yes, we should, visual position Is useless and toxic
While I agree the culture around the visual position has become toxic, especially in recent years, saying its useless is like saying the position maknae is useless or the center position
uhm before clicking the play i would like to say removing the visuals is a dumb move. This might sound hateful but without a visual in ANY kpop group, like how would they be known. Visuals has a good and bad side but I don't think it should be removed.
Um I think you misunderstood what visual meant in this context
@@W-I463I know what a visual is🤨🤨🤨Been here for years yk