Knife Sharpening - s90v - King, and Suehiro Cerax
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2020
- Knife used
Benchmade Mini Freek
Steel type
CPM-S90V
Stones used
King KDS 1k/6k combo
Suehiro Cerax 1k/6k combo
Leather strop with white, and 1 micron diamond spray
Sorry about the loss of the 1k video. I hit record while setting up the camera. So when I hit record for the sharpening, I turned it off! Since I had everything else ready, I decided to go ahead and stitch the video together, and just edit it as is. Regardless, the Suehiro cut only a tad faster, than the King.
This is really interesting because I've been teaching myself stuff all my life and I've found that a majority of experts will often warn you away from a choice that's not so much actively bad as just not quite as good as others. I'm starting to acquire some knives made of harder steels and I thought I _had_ to get Shaptons or whatever and if I tried with my regular stones it would take a super long time and so forth. A typical example is this one site on knife steels that said S90V "requires the patience of a saint to sharpen." That's not what we see here and I'd say your fund of experience has given you perspective as well as skills. If the knife takes a little bit longer, or you need a bit more pressure, you don't froth at the mouth over it like the TV news screaming about four inches of snow. Believe me it's much appreciated, especially when it calms me down about running out and spending money I may not need to.
Yea i found in the sharpening world there are a LOT of rules that are bs. I don’t listen to any of it. I try it for myself and see what happens. Key example. Carbide tear out. It’s either a myth, or so minuscule to never be noticed by the end user. I’ve never, ever, ever experienced it. Believe me, i use the hell out of my cutlery. Here’s another one you may have heard. If you use oil on a stone, you can never use water on it again. 😂 just so much misinformation running around. Best advise i could give is to try it for yourself, and see what results YOU get. Chances are you’ll be surprised.
Fyi, the first time i sharpened s90v was on naniwa pro stones. After the 1k, the other stones did not cut at all. They just burnished the steel. There is some truth to picking the proper stones. Most that are friable, and shed grit, will cut most steels. Hard stones that do not shed grit easily, struggle.
@@Jef I've totally heard that oil or water thing, and believed it too, even though I dutifully followed instructions and WASHED the stones under running water with dish soap every time I used them with no ill effect. Makes you say hmmm and learn to trust the expert testimony of your own lying eyes at least as much as people on the internet who have opinions.
You said it better than i could 👍. Thanks for checking my vid out. Cheers! 🍻
I personally really like the 1k King Deluxe. It's definitely not my fastest 1k but it's not a slouch of a stone. It's very forgiving and leaves a very nice finish. I recently bought the 1200 just to see how it differed. To me, at least with my particular stones, the 1200 seems muddier, faster cutting and less forgiving with more feedback. It's a bit softer than the 1k which is quite hard. My favorite King is the Deluxe 300 though, what an awesome coarse stone regardless of price. It's very hard and cuts almost as fast as a diamond plate. It's so good I bought another just to have. I have much more expensive coarse stones (Shapton, Imanishi, Suehiro) and that's my favorite
That is still one of the best looking knives of the year. Thank you for another look and sharpening.
It is a looker. The blade shape is just a classic. The price is steep, however.
Looks like my 3rd comment on this video lol.
Every now and then youtube pops up your old videos in my recommended, and i give them another watch.
Anyway this time around whay popped out at me was, i definitely think burnishing had a play in the higher luster than normal on the suehiro 6k.
😂 comment all you want. I enjoy reading what you have to say.
Love your videos Jef. You keep everything real.
Thank you for watching!
from what I understand the pressure should be on the back stroke or pull and the mud is a good thing.
You might wanna keep higher pressure on the edge trailing "stropping" stroke with softer stones, on a harder stone it's not necessary. Mud is a good thing sometimes. It will improve feedback on some stones, keep them from loading, help reduce burr formation and help polish because the abrasives themselves break down (that's what friable means). It does NOT improve cutting speed IME. A lot of people think leaving mud on the stone makes it cut faster which I just don't agree with. There are times you don't want it on the stone also, if you're gonna finish on that stone for example I find it's best to finish on a clean surface that's been cleared of any abrasives that will impact the apex
Interesting video, thanks for posting.
👍
The huge gorilla in the room that no one is addressing is that sure, the Alu. oxide stones will sharpen the high vanadium steels, however it is the steel matrix that is being sharpened. Alu. ox. cannot sharpen the actual vanadium carbides). So yes, the blade will cut paper. (so will most just somewhat sharp blades, but it is a wonderful carnival trick for the un-knowing to be impressed), but it can't actually abrade the very carbides the steel is purchased for in the first place.
One of the reasons that M390 has gotten a rep. for not out performing such steels as D-2 other than improper heat treat is if the carbides are not abraded, ie. sharpened, it might as well be a simple low end ss. No advantage the carbides would give if properly sharpened, will be realized. Rendering the steel a waste of money and time.
KnifeMaker
In the real world, where i use my knives, whatever difference in performance you think is there, I’ve never noticed. I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m saying if you truly use your knife in work, or daily cutting tasks, it’s so small an issue, you won’t notice. To reach his own. Ymmv
I have the 1000/6000 smaller version from King and the 1000 is softer and you are right about the chosera 1000. Too much mud.
Is it the king deluxe version?
@@Jef It is the standard KW65 version.
If you are generating too much mud then it is a sign the steel you are sharpening is too soft. As you can see, sharpening harder steels produces very little mud.
@@rockets4kids I have a different opinion. The KW65 and the KDS are using different biding agents. The KW65 is a softer stone. Doesn't matter what are you sharpening it will produce a lot of slurry.
@@DanielWorkshop I have yet to find a stone that didn't produce mud relative to the hardness of the steel being sharpened.
Coming back to this video, seeing you sharpen this knife on these aluminum oxide stones. I mean, its technically possible, like you show in the video. I just think it would be better for someone to buy some SiC, or resin bonded diamond stones if they are regularly going to be sharpening these kinds of steels. If you are just sharpening one knife like this, that's one thing I suppose, but still.
I know you were just showing that it is possible.
Sure, there are better options. However, too much hype out there, saying it cant be done. Or it takes an extraordinary amount of time. Things like that need to be challenged. 👍
@@Jef yeah, and I'm glad you posted the proof to show it is possible. I will say when a client gave me a 10v knife to sharpen quite some time ago, and I tried to use my chosera 800 on it. This was before I had diamond stones. It just slid around like it was on glass, loaded the stone, and seemed to just burnish the edge. So if someone is going to use japanese stones on these steel. It seems like soft stones are the way to go. They release enough fresh abrasive to keep on cutting the stuff.
Yup. I had a similar issue with s90v and shapton glass. After the 1k, they just burnished
@@_BLANK_BLANK Cliff Stamp said something (although he don't agree with a lot of other things he said) in one of his videos that always stuck with me and seems to hold true IME. He said try using your softer, more friable stones on harder steels and your harder stones on your softer steels. It seems counter-intuitive but it's a good thing to keep in mind IME. You need a friable stone to keep cutting wear resistant steels and keep that burnishing effect down
@@AnarchAngel1 yeah. The friability definitely helps cut the harder steels like those.
Yeah king gets a bad wrap because people get the cheap kw-65 combo stone, and it dishes like crazy. My experience with the king deluxe 1200 is a lot like the one you have with the 1000 grit side of the kds.
Exactly. Personally I’m not a fan of the high grit King stones but they do work and priced well. I usually recommend folks check out the Imanishi 1/6k combo instead. About same price and a much better stone.
I think the reason your king 6K side might be chipping is because only the 1K is supposed to get soaked. It happened to me and I’ve read other people as well that the 6K side gets waterlogged if it’s soaked and softens it tremendously which weakens it. Was my very first stone I bought and enjoy the polish the 6k gives.
The day it cracked only the 1k was soaked. When it dried, I turned it on it's side, out of sunlight, with no direct air blowing onto it, and let it air dry. I've got more than a few waters stones, and this isn't my first rodeo ;) This is my 2nd King combo. I gave my first one away when I found Shapton Pro.
Jef Jewell yea it always seemed silly to me to try to submerge half of a combo stone. Still good to see it in action. I gave mine to my sister-in-law for her birthday to go with a nice Tojiro I bought her. Keep up the great vids. 👍
@@lz_377 Yea. Back when my Naniwa's gave me problems, I thought it was perhaps my water. I started an experiment with only using distilled water for everything. It didn't help. Alabama has horrible humidity. That could be a factor. Who knows? At least the King brand are not terribly expensive, and there is still plenty of stone left, that I can make use of it.
Great video as always. I was all set to get a DMT or Ultra Sharp diamond stone along with a medium spyderco and possibly a fine spyderco for my freehand sharpening system, but now after watching your videos, including the recommended stone video, I'm not sure. Would you recommend a gritomatic silicone carbide stone or a venev stone over the DMT or Ultra sharp? And what else would you recommend? I'm hoping for something simple and low-maintenance I will be sharpening a range of steels, mostly s30v, along with some s90v, rex45, etc. I already have an edge pro but want to get into freehand sharpening. Thanks!
Would you recommend a gritomatic silicone carbide stone or a venev stone over the DMT or Ultra sharp?
I would choose either of those, over ANY diamond plates. Diamond plates are just not my scene, and both Venev and Gritomatic, are excellent substitutes.
And what else would you recommend?
Same stone I recommend in my video. If you are not dealing with super wear resistant steels, Shapton Pro. If you are, Gritomatic Sic.
The Gritomatic stones will require flattening from time to time. I have shown how to do this on glass, with loose Sic. If that is more than you want to deal with, just get yourself an xxc DMT or Atoma plate, to maintain them.
@@Jef Thanks for the reply! 240, 1k, 2.5k gritomatic would be all that I need then, along with maybe a xxc diamond to maintain them?
Yup 👍
@@Jef Thanks!
It would be interesting to see s90v on alox stones does vs sic or resin bonded diamond stones I’ve used shaptons to sharpen s110v it turned out ok
You mean a side by side comparison?
Jef Jewell yeah I’ve heard people say that steels like s110v can’t be sharpened on alox effectively I haven’t done much experimentation on it myself so it would be interesting to see how an edge sharpened on alox stones would perform vs diamond,cbn or sic
@@bp-hx9ts Know any decent s90v knives, that are under $250 I can look at? I don't mind doing a few sharpening on this one, but I don't wanna use it as a guinea pig if there are cheaper alternatives. If nothing else, I spose I could always just pay for a blade replacement after it's all said and done
@@Jef Hi Jef, you should check out the Manly Wasp, it's a S90v knife well under $100. Michael Christy had a youtube video about it as well. It is a slipjoint though
@@FranticWombat The way I understood it, that knife was difficult to purchase. It's always sold out? I'll take a look though
Could you make a video on the Spyderco ceramics? Thanks for the info.
czcams.com/video/W5bQU1r7x5k/video.html
I love stones like the 6k Cerax. I dont consider it a finisher tho. It's a finer grit sharening stone, or you could say a touch up stone, in like with something like a 3k chosera but much faster cutting and of course much much more feeling and feedback. Downsides, it has to be soaked before use, it makes a big mess. and unlike the chosera which will stay flatish for a long long time, this thing needs to be flattened ,
My issue w naniwa pro/chosera, is the fact they crack. So far, my suehiro have not exhibited this behavior
I believe the issue there is the magnesia binder. The stones are kinda hybrids, they take more water than other true s&g. I consider them hybrids, basically I call it dunk and go. So because they have the vibe of a soaker, despite the fact that they're likely among the hardest wearing such stones on the market. When they get too soaked or don't dry the right way, too fast or too slow, combinations of both, it causes issues. This is one of the reasons I push back when folks are always suggesting them to newbs. It's like really? They're expensive, huge, last forever and kinda finicky vs actual s&g like sp. They're also not the fast cutter so many claim they are. They're actually gentle cutters like naniwa is known for. IMO the best Choseras are the lower grits, but I do dig em, up to say 2k. I'm not really a fan of the 3k and up even tho I currently own em. The 10k chosera is basically a slightly softer over priced Shapton pro 12k. They're extremely similar. I'd take the 12k Super stone over either. I love that thing. Best high end finisher ever, knives, razor, you name it. Stropping only. Its one stone that could legit work as a strop alternative. end rant.
@@jeffhicks8428 I know how to care and dry stones. My Naniwa, from 1k-10k, all spiderweb cracked. The 5k in particular, took a ton, and is ready to fall to pieces. These events, also occurred, on my stones cut, for the Edge Pro. Whatever the case, I don't recommend anything, Naniwa. The super stones you mention, also have warping issues. Again, even if, "proper drying" is done. They do not stand behind their products. When I made inquires to them, I was consistently blown off, until one email finally told me to deal with the issue with my retailer, they didn't handle these sorts of problems. What the hell? A large number of those in the sharpening community have expressed serious problems with cracking, and they don't deal with it? No thanks. My money is better off spent, at another manufacturer. We are spoiled for options now a days, when it comes to sharpening supplies. :)
I always point folks towards Shapton Pro. If dealing with wear resistant steels, I suggest Gritomatic Silicone Carbide. If you need any finer, or just prefer diamond, then Venev is my final recommendation. Everything else, for me, is just boutique, nuanced, personal preference, on what I am feeling in the moment. However, the above stones, are my go to sets, and always at the top of my recommendations.
@@Jef That's wild man. Really awful. I would expect better. You bought their whole line and from a legit retailer and they just said gfy basically. shit. The only naniwa I couldnt live without is that 12k SS tho.
@@jeffhicks8428 exactly. I did, in the end, contact the retailer. Which is how I ended up purchasing Shapton Pros. He gave me a buy one get one free kind of deal, along with a half off on another, if memory serves.
I enjoyed the hell out of Naniwa. They were my favorite set until that whole debacle. I had several videos posted, back in the day, detailing the entire ordeal. It was long, and lighting was awful, so I ended up taking them down. Regardless, I got tons of feedback from others, who had the same stories I did. Non soaking, air drying on their side, no air blowing across them, avoiding heat/cold, the whole process. Yet the stones, eventually, develop cracks. The only way I found to negate the effect, is to lap the stones, after every use. Remove the top layer of stone that had water on it basically, and let it dry. That keeps the cracking at bay. At least, until you get like me, and forget, or get lazy. Then they begin to show the signs again, two session later.
I think it is a design feature they added, so the stones wear faster. This would make sense, in turning over more product. Just a shame to see all that abrasive go down the drain. Esp since they are supposed to keep flat, for long periods, without the need of maintenance. It is what it is I guess.
Shapton have never let me down.
I manage to dig one or two times into my stone. It made me super mad. :)
Yea, it drives me nuts, when it happens. I hate soft stones.
I would have gone, king 1000, cerax 6000, king 6000. Then strop. That used to be the way I would do my progression when I had both of those 6000s.
Well the idea was to show that both stones, as stand alone sharpening tools, could handle high carbide s90v. The question was asked; If someone only had a king stone, and needed to sharpen their s90v knife, would they be able to do so? Yes.
Just curious mate. If you only could choose say three stones to do it all from soft Victorinox steel to s90v or rex 121 etc what stones would you choose mate? Would make a good video too
I'd have to say the Gritomatic set. 240, 1k, and 2.5k. I already have a ton of vids on em ;P
Wow, thanks so much for this video. I learned a lot. How do you feel about these high wear resistant steels for work? I've moved away from them in favor of caltons 1095 or 52100 and while I love them, sometimes I miss the convenience of a folding knife. Just not enough if my sharpening time is going to shoot up. Thanks again.
So far, Maxamet and ZDP 189, have turned out fantastic, for my work duties. After that, I would go towards Elmax, or 3v. 4v did ok, but it developed lots of small micro chips. Elmax, from Microtech, does surprisingly well. I wouldn't think of it as tough, but it holds it's own in my useage. Once you get past these, most the other steels start behaving the same. From VG10, CPM154, to 440c. They all dull very quickly, and roll/chip.
Eric Canahuati I also like plain carbon steels, 1095 and O1, W2, 52100, L6 etc. I like D2 as a semi-stainless it’s is plenty exotic as far as I need. If the edge gets bunged up in the field I can quickly fix it with a pocket diamond or Ark stone.
I like the King stones, especially the 1200 and 6000. The 6k stone isn’t a fast cutting stone but most 6k’s aren’t. I think I could get by with the 1200, 6000 and a Shapton Glass 500 for repairs. However I hate selling off stones because I get Seller’s Remorse.
I wouldn’t sell em. You can always find uses for your stones even if they aren’t your go to set 🙂
I like the King kds 1200 myself. It’s the one king stones I’ve kept in my own collection, until i received this recent one as a gift. It’s fast enough that i wouldn’t call it slow, and hard enough I wouldn’t call it soft. Problem is i have so many stones in that grit range, it rarely sees use. Esp since it requires soaking
1095, 420, aus 6, and a handful of others, i personally won’t use. They are just too gummy on the stones, and polishing them, leaves the edge, void of any aggression. They get very slidey on material. Think tomato skin. Now whenever i sharpen those types, i usually stop around 1k and do very minimal stropping
I'll add that, the 6k probably cracked because it's a resinoid stone. They are notorious for cracking when drying out, if not in correct conditions.
I do not bother any more to use Al2O3 stones on CPM steels. They can work as you showed but why bother when SiC stones do the job faster and better.
I agree, and even said, they wouldn't be my first choice. However, the question was posed, so I obliged.
Just curious mate. If you only could choose say three stones to do it all from soft Victorinox steel to s90v or rex 121 etc what stones would you choose mate? Would make a good video too
@@knifesharpeningnorway Norton Crystolon Medium / Sigma Select II 1000 / HAIDU HCA FEPA1500/JIS 6000
@@stefanwolf88 Stefan, we can't get the Haidus here in north europe.
@@anon5214 suehiro G8 8000 grit