Which plastic is the most overstable? Comparing 9 Innova discs! | The Plastic is in the Details
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- čas přidán 25. 10. 2023
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I want to point out two things:
1) The flight numbers for a lot of Innova discs changed over the years. For example many putters in the early 2000s when the flight numbers first came out, were rated 1 speed higher than they are now. Aviar P&A, Aviar XD, and Rhyno used to be 3 speeds before being knocked down to 2 speeds, for example. The Wolf was originally a 3-speed and was later classified as 4-speed. Also the Eagle and Banshee were originally 8 speed discs, and are now 7 speeds.
2) Innova DOES actually have different flight numbers for a lot of discs. Just look at any of the recent flight charts they put out. Discs like: Boss, Colossus, Corvette, Katana, Shryke, Vulcan, Tern, Mystere, Invictus and Starfire have different flight numbers - based on plastic - just looking at the 2020 flight chart. It's just that they do this mostly for the 10-14 speed drivers, and they should probably do that on more discs - at least the fairway drivers.
You could see just how surprised Caleb was after some of those throws 😂
Mold temperature and cooling rate affect the disc's dome very much. Better quality control and practices is something they could do to start out. Those F2 discs are produced when the molds are still cold in the morning, until it's considered warm enough. (you might get one that's good enough, done near the end, or a regular disc that's among the first not stamped f2 when the mold was barely warm enough. and this affects how the plastic settles while the disc cools). And yes, they _should_ adjust flight numbers for plastics. But first and foremost, adopt best-practices in production, because there's still a significant percentage of discs that we get, that aren't as expected.
I've heard about this before but I thought it was the warehouse temps/humidity for cooling, not the molds themselves (mold temp makes more sense). But, do they not have a way to semi preheat the molds like in an oven to minimize this? Even better would be if they could moderate the temps of the molds as they do a run so they if they want a tour series mold to be more or less stable for that player than could tweak it via temp control? Suppose it's easier to control via cooling temps if that also does it. Makes me think Halo is a hoax and its just controlled via temps. Anyways, would the F2 from a colder mold generally be more overstable then? I don't think I've gotten one that has been more understable than expected now that I think about it.
Great vid...pretty sure Innova changes the numbers on the Tern as well based on plastic. They should do this for all discs, though I worry it would overwhelm new users when trying to decipher innova's flight charts.
When seasoned disc golfers ask me what's in my bag (which isn't often) I always get the same question: "How is that Shryke flying for you?". Apparently it's known for being very different from its flight numbers. I have it in Champion glow and thown flat on back hand it usually starts its flight by fading, and fading and then fading some more, but on forehand it flies in a pretty predictable S-pattern true to it's numbers.
Early in my journey I wanted a star Thunderbird, but got told by a pro shop attendant that there was not that big a difference for that mold between star and champion. The attendant turned out to be one of the best players in my country and the disc lasted one throw before fading hard into the woods.
I must say well done 👍 I appreciate your take and thank your demo and analysis are excellent
You guys are doing good, important work. :-) keep up the goodness. Really…. Love the topics you guys keep coming up with. Cheers.
I would have loved to see you do this with the most common Starter set discs from Innova.
Valkyrie
Tee-Bird
Roc
Aviar
DX, Star, Champion at a minimum for each while trying to make sure each is close to the same weight.
This pls
My DX Tee-bird is much flippier than my Champion Leopard, and probably similar stability to my DX Leopard. I struggle to turn anything over (finally getting there with a beat in Underworld), but somehow I get good full flights out of that Tee-bird.
I appreciate the way Mint Discs does with stamping the “run” and “year produced.”
I believe Infinite does something similar as well.
Nice video. Very Helpful for people getting into disc golf.
Thanks 👍
Okay so I'm not the only 1 the TL3 flies like this for. I was shocked when I got one and it went like that. I was like this is so much more overstable than I was expecting.
I found a beat one and it's still stable. Good disc but I was suprised after throwing a halo one that was straight, since this champ one was similar to my felon
my first disc was an Innova starter set, and I think it's actually pretty good for what it is. i really liked the leopard and aviar right away. maybe add a champ teebird or something if you plan on learning forehand.
The Tern has had different flight numbers printed on Champion and Star for almost a decade!
The Tern have the same from Innova Gstar -3 and Star -2
Innova has had multiple molds over the years with different flight numbers for different plastics.
I’m so happy that you did the emperor, my driver of choice and I’m now grabbing some I blends bc of this video. Also may I ask what run if it’s listed on the disc?
They do not have a run number, the one we threw is a misprint but we have 4 in stock: www.sixsideddiscs.com/shop/emperor-12-5-1-2-5/457?page=1&limit=60&sort_by=category_order&sort_order=asc
Man, thanks for confirming that my Champ Rhyno experience wasn't off. Both the older star Rhyno and the Champ Rhyno I actually use as straight throwing putters. They really aren't Overstable at all.
Heck my pro rhyno might as well be a glitch with no glide now and my champ rhyno I can't turn over to save my life..
turn is always going to be sus. and i think the problem is, it is presented as one number when it's really more of a range. So a -3 disc is really more of a -5 to -1, depending on a variety of factors, and the way that is presented to beginners could definitely be improved.
when i started i went to a play it again stor and got a 5 discs a roach, crave, tern, emac truth, and a zone. i still use my roach zone and crave to this day, but also my tern was way to over stable for me in champ plastic as a beginner. my tern was also the only brand new disc
So just to make nuances I have an halo star and star boss both between 173&175g and they flyes very similar at full speed, flat and finished left at 500 ft.. But they'r kind of news..
Btw I love your contents !
This was really interesting but kinda supports my understanding of Innova plastic. I'd be curious to see this with another manufacturer's plastic as well. I can't figure out how different the plastics effect Discraft's discs for example. Is there a difference between Z and Cryztal?
often overlooked, but the star tern is 12 5 -3 2 and champ is 12 5 -2 2
I throw the iBlend and sBlend emperors, and your tests show my exact experience. The i blend Emperor is one of the farthest flying discs i've ever thrown, and the s-blend make the perfect forehand complement to it. That being said, I have had iblend emperors from the same run at the same weight and same color fly completely differently 🤷♂
My first disc was a starter pack of Yikun with a promotional price. Love the putter, midrange was good until went checking the deep water, but the control driver turned so flippy in a month that now I let me toddler play with it.
Innova line I love the Champion Valkyrie, but was very surprised to see DX Beast extremely understable...
Thanks for the handy video! I'm a newer player. A buddy of mine has a Valkyrie, can't remember if it's Star or GStar. It's fairly straight for me, just a hint of turn, more flippy for him. I bought my own Valkyrie, in Glow Champion, and it won't even hold straight for him, much less for me! I get better results throwing his bag than mine, even his Destroyer - I get better flight from that than my Glow Valk, even with my noodley newbie arm. Buying the right discs can be really tough for someone starting out!
Innova is inconsistent, and possibly more inconsistent than most other brands. I only bag one innova mold, and I'm very picky about the color, dome, and parting line, and won't buy one unless I'm in person. That said, there are some brands with much better consistency.
The only innova disc that is perfect everytime is the KC pro Roc @@jcapicy
GSTAR BOSS is also different at -1 turn. Its a beautiful mold/plastic combo. My champ boss is rated at a 0 turn. Both my champ Boss and halo boss are beefy as hell and i cant really toss them for distance just headwind and hyzer lines.
Great video, but disc weights also have a huge effect on stability. Are you comparing similar weights across these plastics?
We need an Iron-Gannon like ball golf has the Iron-Byron.
Oddly enough I drove the best with a dx boss when I first started disc golfing specifically front hand drives
My brother loves the TL3 and has bagged many in different plastics. To him, the champion TL3 tend to be much flippier than the star and halo star plastics. I have also bagged the Wombat 3 for a while, and I found that Champion/Halo star to be flippier than my Star plastic ones. It is just very weird how the stability of the plastic changes with the mold.
yes!! that's so interesting. It seems that every mold has a unique reaction to the varying densities / cooling rate of each plastic blend.
I just saw the MVP engineer talking about how certain plastics work only with certain molds, and within that set of combinations, you still have some plastics (citing Electron plastic) which are a lot harder to inject into the mold. He said that for electron you have to jam it in at high pressure and it doesn't always turn out even. Probably a lighter / softer plastic blend is not as homogenous as something like Neutron or Proton, so to get it up to the proper weight range is more challenging.
This all affecting the cooling rate, which in turn affects the PLH (Parting Line Height) and the Dome, as well as the disc's stiffness (both of the rim and on the shoulder of the flight plate)... which is why a flexible / pliable plastic like GStar will have more "give" and more understable or "workable" in return.
My first disc? Wham-O 71 mold 184g. Still have it, would bag it for slow up shots but it's got a crack and it's so old and should be retired.
We need high res side by sides when there are flukes like that blizzard boss and star boss. I want to see HLH and wing shapes!
Yeah don’t even get me started on molds and certain runs this video is great but everyone knows molds /runs of certain years do certain things. The people who know especially the pros always seek out what they know is true and needed. That’s the biggest thing about disc golf u need to try discs and know what run they were or year they came from. That’s how u can truly get what you want. Could be a video for another day:)
Im an engineer, i want transparency and objectiveness.
Approach1: Flight numbers from 3d-scans/models and computational fluid dynamics.
Approach2: QR-code on the bottom which takes you to some kind of website where you can review the flightnumbers for your specific disk. Personal biases can be estimated and compensated for.
Approach3: Disk shooting machine. No need for some kind of arm, you can put rotation and velocity on a disk by much simpler mechanics.
So basically we have to test out (purchase) different plastics in each disc to see which flies best for our arm speed/throwing style? Good for selling discs, frustrating for golfers. With my slower (and older) arm I usually try to find Gstar in Innova and ESP FLX in Discraft. I Love how they feel in the hand, but worry if I am getting the best for me.
The Invicticus in GStar also has other flight numbers. Colossus is not the only one. TeeBird in DX is mostly understable…. Even before ‘curing’ 😊
I have a Star TL and my friend has a Halo Star TL and his is a lot more stable than mine. Mine is what you might expect out of it's flight numbers - very comparable to the FD or Hawkeye in terms of stability in Star. Maybe a touch more. But his Halo Star TL is like my Star TeeBird.
Oh, now I want to beat in my test thown DX Rhyno that will keep keeping the Berg out of my bag ;D Got me a Swirly S-Blend Pharaoh as well, I think it will become my max-distance over the Ballista, Sheriff, Captain and Corvette ^_^
Caleb is awesome to have as a part of six Sided discs. Getting a guy who can rip on all angles with precision, and bomb it past 500 is clutch for these videos.
Dudes got that cyborg arm
🦾
I would be curious if the parting lines were higher on the more overstable yet base plastic versions of the discs you had here. I feel like that's the biggest contributing factor on stability variations between the same molds.
That's kind of what I am thinking too. I'd be really curious to see a video of 10 of the same mold and plastic, ideally from different runs, to see how they compare.
@@stitch438 I mean, he brought up and compared parting lines in the 2 "does plastic effect stability" videos. So he's aware it's a factor.
wing shape matters!
I’m new to the sport, playing with a putter, midrange and fairway in Base plastic. Shopping for discs were a pain. Way too many choices in each category of discs for most manufacturers. I avoided Discraft and Innova because of 7 different plastics, or 12, or I have no idea how many. I bought a few Westside and Dynamic Discs because they have smaller product lines and limited plastics. This video proves my point- way too many choices and you don’t get clear answers from anyone on what you need to just play recreationally.
From a disc golfer perspective, we want plastic to matter, but from a physics perspective it does not. Material makes no difference in aerodynamics if there is no difference in weight, shape, and surface drag. If every part of an object is made of a single material, then weight and shape are all that really matter because weight distribution is only affected by the mold (shape). Perhaps some manufacturers use slight variations in molds between plastic types or something but so far, all my disc golf experimenting has backed up plastic type not mattering. For example, two identical weight wraiths will often fly completely different in stability because of mold inconsistencies.
Also with regard to slight variation in molds, one thing people do not take into account is that if you have 2 plastic types with a different density from each other, then they simply cannot be BOTH an identical mold AND identical weight. It has to be one or the other. It’s simple logic. If both your discs are the same weight using different plastics, then the disk dimensions had to change somewhere to match the weight. The manufacturers have to decide what part of the disc to add or take away material, and THIS is what is really changing the stability.
i dont think you can change the numbers and just use to use them as a baseline. The plastic blends from different runs seems to make a difference too, like Star plastic sometimes is more matte finish, sometimes more shiny. I just tend to try to get 2 discs, same color, from the same shipments i find i really like a mold and plastic. Of course even the shipment could be different runs but its just something i do lately ,
I have Champ Rhyno and I was shocked how straight it flew compared to a Sublime Mint Profit.
The Anubis shot in the color glow c blend was much lower than any of the other shots in different plastics. Fighting gravity a lot less will get you that extra turn. Could still be more overstable just need to throw it on a much closer height to the others to get a closer comparison.
In my experience innova stability from most to least stable is champion, star, gstar and dx, wildly different! Id like to do this with discraft as well. Or make up my own flight numbers for an average 300ft distance arm speed. Ive had several different results. Of course different molds and variations can happen. Innova g star tern is an amazing intermediate disc. My go to for distance! If I'm scared of headwind, star tern is where its at!
I forgot about halo! Halo is the most stable of the bunch. My halo wraith is a meat hook for my noodle arm😂 I could redo all the flight numbers as the average disc Golfer! Somehow I feel like my flight numbers are more accurate than the manufacturer!
I have an orange blizzard boss and mine is super over stable. I got it hoping it would an easy flipping disc
Innova changes the flight numbers on the Tern and I think the mamba based on plastic as well.
I definitely think companies could do better testing for flight numbers but I remember certain batches of destroyers would fly completely differently than the next batch of destroyers as well.
There is a lot of variation between individual discs also, so to make this more scientific, you should compare 10 to 100 same molds in same plastics and take the average.
But that's impossible in real life so we just have to admit that you just have to buy a dics and throw it and keep bying and throwing until you find something you like.
And better to buy champion because when you finally find something that works for you, you want it to last as long as possible.
My oldest disc is champion firebird, it's about 20 years old and works like magic still.
Unfortunately the numbers need to represent too many variables. Disc release speed, RPM, weight, plastic, and mold. Ultimately, discs slow down as they fly, and that reduction in speed affects the turn and fade. It might be easier to create a graph (inspired by Vibram) with the x-axis being the flight number (0 in the center) and the y-axis being speed (starting at 80+mph for a high speed driver and decreasing as it goes up). That way you can start up the chart on the y-axis depending on your arm speed. Me, at 55mph, would skip over the high speed turn a driver might exhibit for those with 70mph arm speeds and show the flat and fading portion of the flight path I would observe. Of course, this chart needs to be made for each plastic/weight (in 5-10g steps)/mold combination. And for maximum consistency, it needs to be generated using actual flights created by using a robotic or mechanical launcher of some sort.
Are you also throwing the same or close weights? I didn't hear that addressed.
I have a DX shark that If shot flat or flip to flat almost always turns over dunno why lol
Should have tried the dx thunderbird in max weight. It is the best dx driver. Flips up little turn with a glidey soft finish. Can't throw it flat or 4hand but on hyzer it will surprise you. New swirly rim Proton insanitys fly about the same. They are more stable now
Big z vulture is better than the thunderbirds. More consistent more glide better hand feel
R pro pig starts out stable but becomes understable quickly. I prefer the proton Pyro star Toro combo
I think a flippy disc like a sidewinder, it, or roadrunner in champ is a great driver that is understable enough for new players but will last them for a long time
Great example
Calebs face after crushing the emperor 400 ft into the tree lol
I expect halo and star to be the same new, and halo to keep that stability longer... Also a lot of the g-star discs are numbered different.
This just confirmed what I've suspected of Innova for quite some time - consistently inconsistent
1. Regardless of company keep the plastic types the same. There is no reason for naming a plasting different than another company. People dont purchase the name. They pirchase the plastic. Keeping them all the same for the type of plastic would make things universal.
2. Having a more accurate flight plan for pro and beginners.
3. Same disc different plastic should have different flight plan as well should same disc with different weights.
4. Have an accurate flight plan printed on the bottom of the disc. Each disc should have its own flight plan depending on pro or beginner throws. So each disc must be tested to show its own specific flight plan.
You can have 10 of the same disc and maybe 3 out of the 10 may fly exactly the same. Same plastic. Same weight. But they will not fly the same. So each disc needs to be tested for its own specific flight. It is not based on plastic or weight.
5. Stamp on the bottom overstable, stable or understable depending on the flight plan. Any extra easy info on the disc will not hurt the disc.
If not the info on the disc. Atleast put it on the package for the disc. But you should have atleast flight numbers, flight plan, weight, plastic type, and maybe which of the three flight types it flies as. Over, stable or under.
You should know how the disc flies from the time you purchase it. Flight numbers, plastic type and weight are not enough to get a full understanding of the flight of a disc from purchase. This is why they tell you to test them out and see how it works for You. With more info. You should be able to go and purchase and have the disc fly as it states it should fly withiut ever having to throw it.
Last but not least. Bring back discs that flew well and had their uses. I miss my katana.
How do you know what the Millenium molds are? Do you know what the Scorpius is based on?
We spoke to a team member from Millennium who said the Falcon is a Destroyer top and a Shryke bottom mold, while the Scorpius is just a retooled Destroyer, similar to the Emperor.
I think Innova being as big as it is makes them the worst to try and test this with. They produce so many discs that you can buy two of the same disc in the same plastic at the same weight and get vastly different results from their flight. I've even heard rumour that their most popular molds like the destroyer actually have multiple physical molds that all have slightly different flight characteristics. I'd be curious to see this repeated with a manufacturer like MVP who seems to have more consistency run to run.
Innova is the worst for flight numbers. Not only does the flight vary by plastic but also:
1. Some destroyers and wraiths have different molds, one under and the other over stable. You can tell the difference if you look at the profile.
2. The same name has very different molds. For example, the champion aviar is nothing like any other aviar.
3. Then the same name has variants. DX Roc vs Roc 3 in other plastic, Leopard vs leopard 3, etc.
All these discs have the same flight numbers.
We as players need to demand more accurate information from the industry.
Under normal conditions, it’s not reasonable to think a DX disc would fly the same as the same mold in Champion or Halo, so it’s ridiculous that companies would assign the same numbers to all of those discs! I don’t know if it would be something that could be determined or tested before assigning the flight rating, but if so, that would make flight ratings much more accurate and useful.
So inconsistent it's crazy. I generally noticed any of us DX stuff I will throw it because it's generally not is overstable..
I think parting line of the disc has way more to do with flight than the plastic.
I'm a little mediocre.. 330ft max.. and play with 9-10 disks from a library of about 15...
I have a pair on INNOVA Beasts (and soon a friends Glow Beast)...
The Beast is a little outside my strength but any disks works if you know what it does and can replicate that at will...
My 1st Beast is a DX 175g that is way beat in... and is quite over stable (If I don't Hyzer it, it flips to roller, but is difficult for me to predict, more so with wind as a factor...
My 2nd Beast is a Champion 175g that is over stable (but turns over in head winds... tho will eventually fade back or land flat) This is currently my max distance disk but requires a flat or Anhyzer throw for me as it behaves more ..0, 2 than the posted -2,2 .... but of course I'm mediocre so maybe I'm a 9 speed...
The 3rd (which has been earmarked for me as it doesn't suit my friend) is a Glow plastic (DX?)... and this actually behaves for me like a -1.5, 1.5.... and gave me my longest drive to date (About 350ft)...
Something that does come from this... No matter WHAT the numbers/plastic... the same disk will behave differently for different people if their speed and spin is different...
SO... I try other peoples disks and use that rather than "the Numbers" as it will probably be a disk that is at least beginning to beat in, and will be a way better example of what that disk will do for me than any online comparison (Unless I happen to find a host with almost the exact same style/speed/spin as me.
Useless side-note... I have a Trilogy Challenge 2020 SPZ3 that is supposed to be a -2, 2... but for me is soooooo straight... I can get it to go 300ft thrown flat, and it behaves like a 0, 0 with a 1 fade right at the end. (and I'm throwing it level... it just doesn't drop... Throw it high and it fades stable... Hyzer it and it fades smoothly all the way, throw it Anhyzer and it turns smoothly all the way with a light fade to flat).
Also... Although I only use 9 in a bag... I Hyzer, flat Anhyzer Back, Fore the disks to get a wide variety of shots....
including one of my favourites... as an old school casual Frisbee thrower I learned straight arm hyzers looking at the target while throwing away and up to the side.... to the point where I can take my scorch and straight arm it at 40-45deg and have it come down and stop nearly perfectly in line with where I am aiming (I actually showed someone this last weekend with their disk about 50ft away... and dang if I didn't land the scorch ON their disk, ending up 2ft left of it (right hand back hand).... and with an over stable like my Scorch, wind often only effects left/right landing position, not length...
It's like the skill shot that everyone forgot about... It is really helpful for some upshots (especially around objects) to be able to face the target like forehand, but have more control of large Hyzer angles than I can get from a forearm (seems the larger the Hyzer, the worse Forearm is for accuracy, whereas a backhand facing... well just go try... but use something stable like a scorch!
Innova plastics are extremely inconsistent. It's hard to know what you are going to get, although Champion seems to be reliably overstable.
They already _weigh_ each disc and stamp the disc with its respective weight. Maybe manufacturers should do the same with the flight numbers. It wouldn't be hard to make a robotic or spring-powered disc throwing arm and just test the first, middle, and last discs from each run/batch, and imprint the discs with the actual observed numbers. (The arm would of course throw the discs at an appropriate release speed) No more kvetching about flight numbers being wrong since they are empirically determined!
Each player could probably pretty quickly figure out how their own form compares to the standard, and now they can shop and build a bag exactly knowing what to expect from each disc.
(You could even have the folks at Techdisc do the calibration and certification of the arms, since they have that technology already)
When I started out, the Champion plastic was horrendously slippery. I think that made me hate the sport for a good while.
Could really only judge if flight numbers are correct or similar would be exact same speed and exact same angle with exact same wind. Otherwise there are too many variables to consider to even guess a number. Are we talking a turn of -1 when throw flat at 60mph or hyzer at 50? Did you throw the last one at a 5-10deg angle difference with 3-5 difference in speed? You have to assume all flight numbers are thrown on same angle, same speed, same wind. I always assume flight number are judged by throwing flat and adjusting throwing speed with disc speed/rim width.
The thing about innova is that you’ll never know what you’re gonna get! One thunderbird you buy will fly like a beat in roadrunner, while you buy an actual roadrunner and it will fly like a brand new firebird. Innova=inconsistency!
Not a large enough sample size. Even the same mold with the same plastic changes from run to run, sometimes from color to color.
Isn't it just a general rule of thumb that the softer a plastic is, the more understable it will fly?
Not necessarily, there are definitely some that seem to be just as stable, if not more overstable. Elevation discs’ rubber blends can be really over stable.
DX made me almost never buy Innova again. I was so pissedoff at the quality.
(doesn't mean I actively buy innova - I buy on a disc by disc case basis and don't care about brand).
Get rid of flight numbers and go to a system of skill based on plastic and arm speeds. IMHO
Jesus Christ, video actually starts at 3:42
I wish they could be true about they numbers on the disc. It's like they do it on purpose, just to make money.
Each plastic/ each mold should have their own flight numbers.
And flight numbers should be standardized and measurable, testable, verifiable. Or else it's simply dishonest advertising.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
out of the stuff ive thrown from innova swirled star tour series stuff is always meat hooky when its brand new, like by far. Champ stays overstable forever.
halo most over stable then champion then star then g-star is most flippy
Hol up I posted that picture of the Dynamic Discs at Wal Mart (2:00) on reddit... THIEVES! I'M CALLING MY LAWYER!
It was a Wal Mart by the way, they put those eventually on clearance and I haven't seen a disc golf thing there or at any other local Wal Marts since.
Also, I would like to see a more industry wide effort to really dial in flight numbers and come up with a more uniform way to really establish what the disc is generally going to do out of the hand. Not sure how that can be established, since human throwing leaves room for error (sorry six sided discs, but it's true.) A way to mechanically throwing mechanism would be ideal but certainly that's a puzzle for people a lot smarter than I am.
tbh innova is one of my least favorite manufacturers, i don’t bag a single one of their discs nor do i even want too
Every video about " flight numbers don't matter "
Fails to mention the human error .
Most disc won't fly the same because of your mechanics
Pretty commonly accepted actually, and they have talked about it in the past. Of course they're not trying to say Caleb is a perfect machine that will replicate every throw with 100% accuracy. It's supposed to be speculative and taken with a grain of salt. What small insight indicators can we glean from this?
What are you trying to prove with your videos? I have only watched a few but everyone just seems like you are bashing some brand. Who cares about flight numbers?
I have 2 Champion TL3's(165 grams and 163 grams) and both fly straight
Yeah, I look at Speed and Glide, and then figure out the turn and fade once I start throwing the disc. To me, it’s just gobbledygook. I have watched people throw Fugitives and Truths (Dynamic Discs) and I have been amazed with the fade they get. I throw them (Westside’s Bard too) and they go straight. Really straight. Frustrating. Keep up the great content.
Champion