Honing For The Home Engine Builder
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- čas přidán 20. 10. 2021
- The Dingelberry, or Ball Hone is one of the most misused tools in the home engine builders arsenal. Here is why they should never be used when freshening up a seasoned engine, and what to use instead.
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I love how realistic uncle Tony is. He knows that a lot of home builders aren’t interested in 900HP twin turbo super cars. We just want to drive and enjoy our cars.
There’s something about doing a rebuild on an old tired engine cleaning it from old carbon and oil build up. Porting it some,or a lot, new valves and springs a cam, bigger carb or maybe efi if you have the funds. Where time is more of the expense then money sometimes. But bringing it back to life better then it was (how ever many years it was) when new. It’s a labor of love and dedication and through some of the heartache and headaches it brought is all worth it when it’s finished and you finally get to enjoy it. It may not be a high triple digit hp engine with a turbo or supercharger of some kind but it’s equivalent to all the fun as it having one of those two and best part of all is you built it slong with some friends or family. And gained so much more from it then a high dollar over the top build.
your brain is a FART !
@@deezematz your just talking FART GAS !
@@ronnieboucherthecrystalcraftsm you good man?
@@ronnieboucherthecrystalcraftsm have you looked in the mirror
Long time mechanic here.... got a call once where 3 guys had just installed new rings in a 58 Vette... and they couldn't get it to crank over... not even by hand! it was locked up tight. I found they had not removed the carbon in the piston ring grooves (didn't even know they had to) before beating the pistons back into the block. I'm mentioning this because those uninitiated to the process might like (need) to see a video relating to using a ring groove cleaner. In the old days we just broke a used ring and then used the edge of it as a scraper to do the job.
Funny, just from being in army and having to clean the finest detail in the gas piston ring taking that weapon apart every day trying to get all carbon out which was never enough for the commanders, I get what You're talking about, but thanks for the tip, I'll make sure I do that.
It's awesome that someone with so many years of experience dedicates his CZcams channel to helping keep alive the thrill of building the older cars. I've never watched one of his videos that I didn't learn something. Thanks Tony and keep up the great videos.
Absodamnlutely
I couldn't agree more. I am very grateful. I've been without work for 2 weeks now. Need to get my build done so I can start making money again.
Tony, don't you dare, EVER, die on us! That level of "in the trenches" wisdom and knowledge MUST live on! FOREVER!
I love how some get on a guys channel to try and beat him down for sharing info that has worked for him and has worked for thousands of others. Love this channel
Uncle Tony you are the realest most relatable car guy for the average person working on their car at home. Thank you for that!
He is a cool dude!
Too bad CZcams and Uncle Tony's channel wasn't available 40-50 years ago when I rebuilt the engine in my 1969 Javelin.
My dad had a green 69 Javelin with 2 stripes said that it started up on it's own one night cherry bombs rumbling
@@Bigrich0g My Javelin was green (though I had repainted blue) and at one time had Cherry Bombs, but it never started itself.
@@Bigrich0g man that must have been a night to remember. Reminds me of the movie Christine. Bet the Jav was telling your pops, lets go for a run. 😎 gives me the goose bumps thinking about it.
@@MadMexism he told me stories how he out ran the natives police cause he was shooting rabbits he rabbits in his javelin i was a baby when someone totaled it i was with him i remember a female officer holding me it was a bad ass Javelin has a slight lift in the back like it had slicks
Another AMC guy, there's dozens of us!
A machine shop uses a 4 "fingered" hone, a 3 stone hone will follow and out of round bore. A 4 position portable hone is what you should be using, I have found a Lisle one to be very good for this, not expensive either. You are spot on about the flex hone, I have many of these and they are perfect for what they are intended for, breaking glaze and putting a fine finish over an already good bore.
Thanks Brian. What grit is normally used?
It would depend on whether it is "fresh bore" that needs to be finished, or an old one that you are reusing, roughing 80-240, up to 500 especially if you are running chrome plated rings, make sure that you wash the bores clean with a detergent, solvent doesn't quite "cut it!@@k24hybrid
I worked at an engine revision shop back in the early 80's. For honing cylinders we used a device which looked like a piston with 4 stones coming out of the sides which could be extended outwards by turning a nut on a threaded bar. It was driven by an electric motor with two solid grips on either sides so you could counter the force when spinning the device in the cylinder. You had to move it in and out through the cylinder whille trying not to lose your balance (these things were pretty powerful)
Unfortunately I couldnt find any pictures of it online, guess no one uses it anymore, but if you had the experience (that took a while to get) you could get really great results in terms of final dimensions and roundness on the cylinder.
We also used to taper the cylinders very slightly, a bit wider towards the bottom, smaller to the top. Reasoning was the faster heat up of the top thus slightly advanced expansion there.
In that machine shop we did everything the old fashioned way, manual labor considering every block a unique project. I chose a different carreer path once I realized this trade was going the way of the dodo. They did manage to stay in business catering for the really high end racing or classic cars but the demand was too low to have a future.
What I've done ever since has nothing to do with engines, nor even cars but I do feel privileged having learned such a specific trade using such old school technology, machinery and tools.
You had passion for the things you made.
That is rare nowadays.
I believe it's called a parallel hone.
Cylinder hone
Is good to use the right tools on whatever you do in life. There is a
way to get stuff done ✅ and a way
My grandfather does it 🤔
That seems about right.
@@jasonlopez4855 hell yeah ...get er did...keep on moving
Excellent and informative video! I appreciate the fact you're focusing on the average person who is on a budget and doesn't need crazy horsepower. I am that guy.
Yes Tony, ball hones are just basically glaze breakers, basically makes the cylinder look good, that’s it!!👍
Sometimes that’s all you need, but yeah too many people think they do more than that.
Brake shoes get glaze , cylinder bores get polished . Glazed bores is a myth .
This rings very true.
I have seen people use a ball hone, I have heard them arguing about it, but I havent seen their work last and do anyone any good as a dependable set of cylinders.
It doesn't take much to cause leakage that affects the cylinders ability to maintain a high compression.
I saw one with a spot down in the bottom of the cylinder. We tried to hone it out. It seemed to take forever. It's problem was excessive leakage and resulted in a misfire.
I was trained that ball hones are only for cross-hatching the cylinder bore after it was refreshed. Or bored. It was never meant to actually straightened a cylinder bore.
@@az_3kgt714 Yes, you are definitely correct, that’s what I was taught as well👍!!
UTG/ you have surpassed every expectation when I get on CZcams to watch random videos. I’m glad I’m subscribed to you. You keep it real and teach exactly what I’m looking to learn as that home DIY car guy. Thank you! Never change your motive!
Love your philosophy of engine reconditioning. Tired of "pros" saying you can't do this, you can't do that... but the rest of us have to live in the real world! Thanks Tony.
My 455 olds had been overheated badly multiple times in its life the rings touched or something and left massive scores down the walls. I used the triple stone hone on all the cylinders until I couldn’t see the scoring threw in a new set of rings and let her rip. Took like 7 sets of stones lol. I’ve got something like 30k miles out of it since then. Still dailying it. 🤘
Damn dude I'd think the gap between the cylinder and piston would be a bit bigger but didn't say it has piston slap so....right on!!!
@@cdoublejj none that I can hear at least haha I’m sure they gotta be slappin at least a little tho 😂 The two worst cylinders were at least 5 over when I was done.
@@SpecialAgentJamesAki It sure sounds like the end result speaks for it's self. :-)
@@cdoublejj if it works it works right hahah
@@cdoublejj I just pulled the heads off this car. The hone job still looked good. No scuffing or scrapes, evenly worn. Back together still running great lol.
Just found your channel and your videos are beyond priceless. I've recently gotten into building small engines and I can't thank you enough for all the help you've provided.
You never fail to impress. Its the lil things you explain that make a HUGE difference. Thanks keep'em coming
I use a lisle cylinder hone to flatten out the bores. Take my measurements and finish with a ball hone. A ball hone leaves such a nice finish. Never liked those spring loaded ones. I use atf as a lubricant.
A beautiful cross hatch pattern is easy to achieve quickly if you limit the amount of lubricant used.
the lisle stuff works well for about best you can get for home use. two stones and two wipes with fixed and adjustable pressure
This and keeping everything as clean and lubricated as necessary during reassembly and maintaining proper RA and flatness on deck and head surfaces is a must. A great must know tip from UTG!
This is great advice, on home honing for cylinder bores. I've been using flat stones since I screwed up one engine using just a ball hone and my old boss gave me a hard time about it haha. Lessons learned, thanks for being the better part of the CZcams Automotive channels.
These videos are so great. I'm rebuilding a supercharged 3800 V6 to shoehorn into my fiero. you cover everything I've been wondering when it comes to rebuilding it and it's so appreciated.
Great info Tony, I've always used the flat stone hones that's what the parts store had when I bought one about 10 years ago but never knew that they were better or worse. I learned something new today thanks!
Thank you Tony. I've never considered the "individual flexability" of each ball. I've used them several times on different engines, albeit a quicky rebuild. If I find myself getting any boring done, I'll buy the right hone.👍
The most realistic and down to earth video by the great Uncle Tony. I grew up exactly the way you explain about car stuff. That's being as real as you can. I had enough or am quite tired with the big guns who actually do not understand real world man of the street scenarios. Great stuff, keep up the great work. I'm always watching your vids and sharing them with other senior players in the same game. Cheers mate
Thank you for another straight from the hip video! Hope this inspires the young guys out there to not be scared to do there own work,This way more engines will be saved and running and not be on hold because of a low budget. Great job again ,Tony!
I do all my own work and I'm 29. I would never let someone else gain automotive experience from my car lmao that shits for me!!
I've been doing that for years, for that exact reason. My machinist buddies always give me a hard time. Nice to hear another pro back it up. Well said Tony.
I understand your point but at the dealership when we actually rebuilt engines long ago I preferred the ball hone because I wasn’t working on old stuff that laid around for years open to environment and it always worked great for me. Using the fixed stone you need to be careful not to make the cylinder oversized for the rings you’re using
So you are literally using it like he said it was designed for. Not to fix a old engine but to remediate a new one.
it will still work with a ball hone it just wont be as good as it could have been vs a stone type. yes you have to pay attention to oversizing you still have to do that with ball hones as well. you were getting paid to do things as quick as possible at the dealership not make them the best with lots of labor.
This is a brilliant video. I've always dreamt of building an engine for something but have never committed to it (mainly because I never keep a car long enough to warrant the investment). I've watched a lot of shows and videos and NO ONE has covered this. I've seen anyone even hint at garage honing tool comparisons. This is the realest video I've ever seen about a DIYer doing DIY things, and probably the most helpful info I've seen. I don't anyone doing their first engine would know enough to even think to ask about this. Awesome!
Great time spent learning this golden nugget on honing. I’m going to freshen up a Mercury 150hp outboard and this information probably saved me from making a big mistake. Thank you very much!
Love the content and all the knowledge thanks uncle Tony!
I think it is good to keep goals and expectations aligned with budgets and processes. I built a bunch of engines using basic tools and a cylinder hone. These old engines can be quite forgiving and run great without having to build to extreme specs, as long as you keep them clean and use good quality parts. Thanks for the education Uncle Tony and keep it coming!
I'm glad that I found this video. I have been debating which hone to use, and was leaning toward the ball hone, because I've seen so many videos with guys using them. Thanks for the heads up and lesson!
Uncle Tony, you are a real positive force for us do-it-yourselfers. You understand that we operate in the real world with real constraints. We all have to make concessions. You don't talk down to us and you show us how to do real stuff. Thank you for what you do. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Tony. My sons and I have lots of home builds in the years to come. I find a lot of blocks dont need going .030 either. I'd rather be on the loose side of skirt clearance than tight side. I've seen a few engines that would barely crank over at operating temperature after being re-bored and scuffing piston skirts.
I've always used a three-legged Stone hone on all my rebuilds and never had a problem as long as the cylinders are in decent shape to begin with! my last build was a sbf 302 HO roller and the cylinders were slightly out of round so I went crazy with the honing brought them back to damn near perfectly round! ordered some file to fit rings, I used some stock used pistons out of a different block and piston to wall clearance is definitely excessive and ring gap is probably set up for more of a forced induction build but haven't had any issues with the engine at all! no piston slap, makes great power and compression is about 175 on every cylinder which is better than stock! so I'm going to have to agree with everything unc said In this one! dingleberry hones are for something you know is completely round! if your rebuilding a block with 175,000 mi on it just use a three-leg hone! make sure not to go too far down in the cylinder or you will hit the webbing and break the stones, if that happens replace all three stones! also replace the stones every time you use the hone! do not use the same stones on three different blocks! even though it can probably be done definitely ain't the best idea!
if that engine ever overheats it will have a little extra leeway for the few extra though of clearance. since when is harbor freignt selling new hones seperatley? though if i'm wrong that's good
I built a 5.0 H.O. just as you describe many years ago. I went crazy with the hone because I didn't know better. and I cut out every mark in the cylinders and measured nothing. The stock TRW forged pistons sounded like they were swapping holes, but I swear it was one of the fastest stock 302's I've ever seen. I couldn't tear it up, but I eventually had a block bored and replaced it because I got tired of hearing it.
@off spec can you. Make video demonstrating this? Uncle Tony did a video not long ago with the three prong and the end product looked great and was very smooth and not scuffed
@off spec the. Why not finish it with a single ball hone to make the finish smoother. The machine shop isn't using anything fancey to finish either. At least not that I'm aware of but then again technology changes
I literally wore out a three stone home on one cylinder because of rust pitting it'll be in our next video when I get it up a building the wifes 455 for her jet boat I told her the other seven cylinders are n / a cylinders but number eight is a blower cylinder for 1071
I learn something new every time I watch something on your channel. This was such a good tutorial. I would never have known about the unevenness in the cylinder walls and how to check for it. Thank you!
Thank you, I am gonna be honing a 40 yr old z1000 , at home, never done it before , so appreciate the simple way you put it all.
Thank you!!!! I built handful of engines like this over the years. my favorite example of this video is "parent bore" diesel engines aka throw away engines. build few 3116,3126,C7 caterpillar engines with a rehone and go, caterpillar even had specs for this! if the cylinder was with in X" of the factory bore for a ball hone and a larger X" for a straight hone.
This is why I look up to UTG states his choice backs up his reason iv learned (there's more than one way to skin a cat) by a old ass mechanic but UTG don't spit out his choice without reason that's why this dude's badass
Very useful advice, thanks. I particularly liked the perspective of who the video is aimed at, reminds me of a favorite saying at work: 'progress, not perfection.'
Uncle Tony, you are the man! I have learned so much from your content. Please keep pumping out this stuff.
I'm a DIY guy but I leave block prep to the machine shop. I've never spent more than $500 for a build-ready block.
I was waiting for a smart person to chime in. As rough as those cylinder walls are right now it will destroy a set of rings. Spend the money go to a machine shop
@@cavemangarage was not finished. He knows what he is doing
Great video as always! Home built engines are what started the hot rodding and racing scene, it was just a guy and some old parts, and he’d put it all together and try to make some power then run it at the track, some applications you would wanna take it to a shop but for a guy at home it’s not needed as long as you have a decent engine to start with.
And today so many people complain about a particular model car not having all the bolt on ready to go performance kits....
@@DrewLSsix yep, but at least that makes what we do more valuable/exotic, cause you don’t see it much anymore, but when you do it definitely stands out and shows people just how skilled you are because you don’t need bolt on parts, you make what you need and mod what you have.
Like for example I’m working on a 79’ 280zx and as far as parts go... well they’re non to be seen, at least not performance parts, but I’m gutting the old vacuum line spaghetti EFI system in favor of a Megasquirt 3 computer and building a custom fuel rail and intake for it, along with a custom interior and a nice paint job to go along with it all, and I plan to do it all myself, so far the engine side of things is going smoothly and it should be back on the road soon but it won’t look pretty in a parking lot yet haha.
Sorry for the long comment for anyone who has read all of this lol.
This is old school information, I am glad there are old schoolers out there making videos. I don't even use ball hones when I rebuild brake cylinder's. Thanks for taking the time and sharing this important information.
Some shops still use those. My dad used that style of stone hone in his machine shop, it wasnt a cheap set though. He used mostly older machines. You explained this pretty well, there is no replacement for stone hones.
UT- I have seen very few negative comments about your videos and think you do a wonderful job explaining whatever topic you are covering. If there are 'know-it-alls' criticizing you, please ignore them. The vast majority of your viewers (my opinion) think you're great. Please keep up the good work!
By your comment you were never a engine builder!just a engine assembler not the same comparison 🤔
UT did a video on social media, comments and know it all's some many months back I thought it was a great video and calls things for what they are
@@miker7318 you know nothing about me, what I have or haven't done, besides, what's your point?
back in the day we called them "glaze busters." how they ever got flipped over into cylinder hones ill never know...
What is "glaze"?
@@pookysdad4884 when you 1st pull the heads on a running engine and look down and see the cylinders looking like chrome...thats glaze.
@@Imnotyourdoormat oh, where the crosshatching is gone. I see. Yeah, new rings would never seal on that.
.....which is correct, I've used glaze busters for 40years, trouble is, you can no longer get them here in the UK in a big enough size anymore,
We called it a "dingleberry bush"!
Thanks Tony, your videos are always 'on point'. Great channel.
I am glad that you channel showed up in my feed. I enjoy the easy spoken nature of the tech discussed. Not a Mopar guy but the information is still relevant to other brands. Great work.
Hi Tony. I'm only rebuilding my V-twin riding mower (gotta start somewhere), but when searching for a video for honing cylinders I found this and know I can trust your guidance for the DIY'er. Thanks for all your videos and for always being real!
I would classify both those who hones you showed as "glaze breakers" neither one of them really restores roundness and removes taper.
For my budget ring bearings and valves kind of rebuilds, I use a Lisle 15000 cylinder hone. One of them or an equivalent will restore cylinder roundness, and remove any taper. You can actually feel when it restores roundness and straightness when the pull on the drill become smooth.
Just getting into engine building, i didn't even know home cylinder hones were a thing. Thanks!
Exactly.
That's a $200 cylinder hone. If my cylinder requires that, as a DIY garage guy, I'm sending it in for a .020 or .030 over bore. Just what I would do. Then have them do cam bearings and freeze plugs, cause.... might as well. I just don't do enough engines to merit that kind of tool.
@@russshappard1059 How are you going to be a "DIY garage guy" if you don't DIY?
That looks like a great tool! I just got a set of Neway seat cutters and my gosh they cut really well, I don’t mind having some nice tools in my garage.
Thank God I found this channel and for this man sharing his knowledge 🙏
Uncle Tony thank you for taking the time in explaining your points!! I wanted to help you out with bore terminology. The opposite term for a tapered bore (if it isn't simply trash)is a square bore. The low spots you showed are actually eccentricity while a perfect bore has concentricity; like the rings on a bulls eye, my friend.
You'd think it'd be obvious to people that ball hones are not for boring, but sadly lots of people just don't know better. I was told once that only "dingleberries" use a "dingleberry" hone. LOL
Tony's absolutely right, they're great for their purpose, but that purpose is very specific... removing scuffs from a cylinder that isn't worn, or machine shops use them to crosshatch the cylinders after boring with a machine since the cutting blade doesn't do that.
If your machine shop uses a ball hone to put the crosshatch into the cylinders after boring, find a different machine shop. Seriously.
@@RacerRickxx Why? That's how I was taught to do it in college... I've done it on several engines with no adverse effects.
@@livewire2759 Whoever told you that doesn't know what they are doing. When you bore a block, you end up with microfracturing from the procedure a few thousands deep.
The final hone should be done with a ridged hone and remove a minimum of 3 thou to remove the microfracturing, and do your final sizing to set your piston to bore clearance. Of course you want a proper crosshatch angle , finish, and clearance for the rings and piston design you are using. I know some shops will use a fine grit ball hone with light pressure as the final honing step when using moly rings as a poor mans plateau hone, and the ball hones actually work well for this. This is the final step after proper honing of course.
There is a lot more to boring/honing a cylinder, but this is the basics.
A poorly finished cylinder wall will still work somewhat, and you would probably be surprised how screwed up a cylinder wall can be and still run ok for a little while. It won't last very long, oil contamination and maybe consumption will be an issue, and it won't make the power a properly machined cylinder will.
If you are paying a shop your hard earned dollars to bore and hone your block, make sure they are doing it right.
I used to put rings on old pistons & not even measure the cylinders. I do ofcourse now. But people would be amazed at well those engines would run. Yes they would have alittle blow by. But it wasn't really excessive. And they ran well . Has power, ran smooth. Sure they were not 100k mile engines, but they were good enuf for a good amount of time.
Good old cast rings I'd swear they would even break in on an uneven bore.
I really appreciate the video. I am currently working myself up to order some parts for my 351w I tore down. Came out of my F250 dump, going into a 64.5 Mustang for the wife. I have never rebuilt an engine before, and figured I may as well give it ago since the radiator blew up on this engine, and overheated it something fierce. I haven't given honing a shot yet, but I will definitely be using your advice here to check the block over
Subscribed. I rebuild an engine only about once a year, and still have a lot to learn. Great channel!
If a machine shop is using a 3 finger hone to finish your cylinders, RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN. They should be using a rigid hone set up. 2 stones and 2 wipers. 3 cylinder hones are NOT RIGID, they have a pivot in the middle. Making it impossible to be rigid.
100% correct . Its guys like this that make people think they can do stuff at home . A caliper hone has no place around an engine
Yeah people do more damage with those things then good. If I'm not boring the block, the ridge gets reamed, and I use a Lisle 15000 hone. They are only about $150.
If the cylinders aren't round, the rings will never really break in. You might get a set of cast iron rings to break-in but not any the harder alloy modern rings
If you need a ridge reamer, you need a boring bar. Ridge reamers do more harm than good, they cut the top of the cylinder out of round. They follow the out of round hole. I use a Van Norman bar cuts straight/round/true holes every time, with out question. Follow up in the hone machine to finish and confirm the results.
@@samdavis5079 I'll agree that if they need ridge reamed, they need to be bored. That being said, the rings don't travel over the area the ridge reamer cuts.
I have the van Norman boring bar too. Although I rarely use it anymore, pretty much everything I work on has cylinder sleeves.
So in other words there's more than one way to skin a cat 😉
Thank you Tony. I come by often just to get my fix of sanity and reason. Too many I know insist the only way to build an engine, even for a daily driver, is to go the whole hog, acid clean, crack test, sonic test for wall thickness, then bore it to the maximum size possible. Refreshing to know I'm not the only one who will just hone, check, and if it's close enough, reassemble to get another 100,000 trouble free miles out of it.
I built a lot of 350 Chevy engines back in the day with new standard size engine kits and just honing the bores with a 3 stone hone like Tony showed. I would get the heads machined, but everything else not. Used plastigage to check the .001 oversized bearings during assembly and always put in a high pressure oil pump.
Never had a problem with burning oil, and would easily get 75,000 or more miles without any issues.
Good info here, this is exactly what I did when I rebuilt my 351 Cleveland in 1997 and it's still going strong today
Thank you so much for this video. I'm getting ready to start a frame up rebuild of an old 77 jeep and the motor is in rough shape (lots of abuse and not much maintenance). I'm probably better off replacing it, but I really want to keep as much of the jeep's factory parts as possible. I haven't done an engine in over 25 years and I've only done a couple with a lot of assistance from people who aren't around any more. While I'm still not confident that I should do the engine or transmission myself, videos like this really help.
a 3 stone spring loaded hone is also a "Glazebreaker" A Machine shop does not use one of these in a machine as UT states. A "Rigid" hone is used, both in stationary machine and sometimes by hand. Rigid hone uses 2 stones (usually) and 2 "wipers" or shoes to keep hone square to bore. This type of hone will actually straighten out a tapered or out of round hole. Anyone who thinks they are correcting anything with a $30 spring loaded glazebreaker has never used a dial bore gauge. Believe it or not machine shops arent always out to steal from you.
Its pretty hard to use a torque plate with a drill powered glaze breaker no matter if its a floating stone or a dingle berry. A rigid hone is way better in any conceivable way save cost.
100 per cent dead on ! honing is an art
It's going back a long time, but the way I learned was to start out with the piston at the bottom of the stroke, stuff rags and then use a ridge-reamer before ever removing each piston. Then run a dial-indicating bore gauge down the length of the cylinder to get an idea of what you're dealing with. Love your content Tony! Bought my first car for $100 from my eldest brother when I was in the 5th grade (1972). It was one of the last production years and had the Chevrolet 283, powerglide and posi-rear. Good times back then.
If you have to cut a ridge it needs to be bored. But if those pistons are still good you do right by cutting that ridge off.
@@cammontreuil7509 yup, depends how much ridge and how sharp too. out through the bottom if possible is always better, if the ridge not horrible the paddle hone can do good enough to slap back together.
@@modelnutty6503 been their did that.
That is how I learned too. I build engines professionally in my shop. Just because it has a ridge doesn't mean it is out of spec. machine shops want you thinking along those lines though.
@@truthinadvertising2702 If it has a ridge, it is out of specification. I've had dozens of blocks that were ridge reamed that had to overbore .030" or more than if it had been left alone for the professionals would have cleaned up at .020" or even less if the oversize was available. A ridge reamer is an antiquated tool that belongs in a museum, not in a tool box.
As far as the hobbyist and what hone to use, either will do the job, with the ball hone putting a crosshatch in places the ring can still seal, and the fixed stone hone revealing the true ugliness of the cylinders. The rebuild will function to some level, and every gearhead that wants to do a home refresh should do it, for the experience and the pride.
Not planning on doing this anytime soon, but ready to watch Tony talk about why not. Great channel, the "Tone Zone"!
This is great. Im not a mechanic, but work on cars all the time. Everything from brakes to suspension to AC work and pulled my first engine. I dont know everything and enjoy researching new things. I would have tried the ball hone first but this video really explains it even better than any other video. Subscribed
I always measure the cylinders to check for out of round before using a ball Hone. If it is within spec it gets the ball hone otherwise I take it to my local guy. I haven't had any issues with doing it this way. Which is pretty much what you mentioned in the video(only use ball hone in round cylinders)
Thank u Uncle Tony 👍
Great video Tony gives me lots of inspiration and encouragement / confidence to build my own engine 👍👍
Another good video. Our local machinist (before he passed) was an ex drag racer and was very good at his work. He told me the first time i went to his shop that he doesn't finish his cylinders with a "china berry limb". Glad to see the reasoning behind it. Makes perfect sense..
I'll tell you what I've used for years is just a large phillips screwdriver with the tip chucked up in a hand held drill. I'd wrap a rag or small towel around the handle then take emery paper, fold it in half and wrap it around the rag. You need to make it large enough that it's plenty snug in the bore, then just use it like a hone. Swap it out when needed. You can use different grit paper as needed, and if you wrap everything carefully it comes out just a smooth as a hone. That's some practice.
Have always used a stone hone for the last 40+ years. It figures that people in Cali would recommend a "dingle ball" hone.
Yea. Cali politics definitely describe their intelligence
Speaking like a true boat owner.
Let's go Brandon
They probably use it for honing other holes as well if you know what I mean 😈
Look up how many people voted for Trump in California vs your state.
I can be a harsh critic at times. But this video was spot on. Nice job! Explained perfectly with exactly the right facts for those who can gain from this. Super well done!
Tony you always give me the answers that no one can give. It’s always when I’m not looking but the algorithm gave me the right direction
That goes counter to what I was taught. Always use a ball hone on an engine that will simply have new rings installed on the existing pistons.The reasoning being that a traditional hone will tend to straighten the bore, enlarging the diameter at the bottom, which you do'nt want.
but if your bore is tapered you need to rebore. if the cylinder is within spec and youre changing rings then its all good
A traditional manual Honing machine will not straighten a bore all by itself. Threre is a certain amount of Taper that is acceptable if you intend to only "freshen" the engine. If the Bore Taper exceeds these parameters, a rebore and hone would be necessary.
Regarding the Ball Hone..... it is not better than using a Honing machine. The Ball hone will not do a better a job recreating a cross-hatch pattern. With a competent operator and fine grit stone, the cross hatch pattern is obtainable and may only remove .0002 - .0003 inch. That is fine.
Enlarging the bottom of the Bore? this doesn't happen naturally. What does happen, is the top of the bore will open up even more. An experienced operator knows this and will do a proper job to prevent this from occurring.
@@razoreyes45k I own a traditional honing machine and have zero issues straightening a tapered bore with it. Kinda what Sunnen designed it to do.
I still have Dads honing stones. Both a cylinder hone and a wheel cylinder hone
Never had a need for a ball hone
Back when people used to rebuild wheel cylinders!!!!
@@jefferyepstein9210 I still do. And calipers
Thanks so much uncle tony. Merry Christmas and have a great year 2023🙏
Thank you for the review of Hones.When I was @ Cal Poly ,I took both Block and Head rebuilding classes which were for the purpose of training auto shop high school teachers. The prof who had a doctorate in education, made us use a portable boring bar and then finish the bores with a RIGID hone. This looks a bit like your glaze buster in that it has similar stones but they were not spring loaded. A lot of smaller shops did things this way. I had a small shop rebuilding or overhauling dumptruck engines and drivelines at the time and argued incessantly with the prof that I would prefer my motor for his class, a 225 cid slant 6 , be done in a shop with a Sunnen CK10 to finish the bores. I am glad he made me learn this method ,you can do an excellant job if you are careful. But an automatic machine tool like the Sunnen will consistently do a perfect job a lot easier...... If you can afford it. I learned about shortcomings of the dingle ball hone today that I did not know. I got into using them in the early 70's as I seemed to get chatter from the straight stone type of glazebuster, due to it's springiness and lack of rigidity.
Ball-hones were not designed for honing at all. They were actually designed to deburr cross-holes in manufacturing. They kind of migrated to cylinder hones because they actually work really well in plated two-cycle cylinders for de-glazing. And, the purpose of whatever solvent you chose to use while honing is not to lubricate at all. Its only real purpose is to flush swarf out from under the stone and off the cylinder so the stone can cut. The more you can flow in the cylinder you are honing, the better. Gasoline is actually just about the perfect tool for the job.
It depends on the material the hone is made from. Silicon Carbide stones can actually be run dry, but most others need the lubrication to keep them from plugging up the stone like you said. The viscosity of what you are using as lubrication is also important. The thinner, the better the stones cut. If you are not using a dedicated honing lubricant, try transmission fluid one day. It works good.
I have been using the ball "hones" for 40 ish years on two strokes to deglaze the cylinder and somewhat chamfer the ports when doing ring jobs between bore jobs. The three stone hone you show here I barely consider those any better than the dingle ball. I prefer the ones with two stones and two wipers and I use carb spray as the "lube".
@@RacerRickxx water might even work... ****flashrust**** dangit
@@zarkeh3013 that flash rust might be an issue lol
@@zarkeh3013 WD40
Excellent video and explanation. I've wondered about this exact thing in the past, so thanks for taking the time to explain!
That was great! Looking to do my first home build and most all videos are with the ball hone! Thanks for putting this out!
As a veteran 20 year machinist. This was a perfect video to explain why you stone hone. Same concept as to why you block sand flat panels with solid blocks and not contour/flex blocks
This is all amazing info cant wait for the in depth video about measuring, i've got a core block im really hoping to keep out of the machine shop. Do you have any tips on checking how squre the decks are to the crank?
I wouldnt worry about that.......had to be square enough for the intake and other things to line up. I know on small block chevys guys used to check for casting core shift by seeing how centered the inner and outer ring on the end of the block where the cam goes in looks.
You can get pretty close by using one piston/rod assembly moved in all 4 corners with about any kind of good straight edge and depth gauge. Not perfection but will tell you if it's way off and needs work.
This is great news for me Tony ,I'm always trying to save money ,and build it myself ,just want to get it running ,again ! I have to be honest though ,I had started using ball hones ,but will definitely go back to stone's, after watching this video ,thank you so much!
Great explanation between the honing ball and block. I'm a at home Corvair engine builder hobbyist and need to learn how to do this and save myself more money rather than taking the cylinders to the machine shop.
Thanks again for the clarification.
What grit stones and what type rings work best when doing this type of rebuild?
Tony, great content, really. But…
First, if the home gamer thinks he is an engine “builder”, he should run an inexpensive dial bore gauge down every cylinder. If they are round to spec then sure, run your favorite flavor of glaze breaker down them and roll. If there is taper, get a cheap “rigid” Lisle or Sunnen hone and fix it as long as it keeps the piston to wall clearance in spec.
Not trying to rant but in my youth I was bit by trying to cheap out. Never again.
None of the required tools for this are brutally expensive if purchased used.
Doing my first engine build right now and starting the prep on the block in the coming weeks. Thanks for saving me about $50 on one of these ball hones.
Good timing for this video! I’m gonna attempt my first rebuild ever soon on my family’s ‘92 Camry. The motor overheated and blew the head gasket but the bottom ends been whining some off and on for a while. I was planning on using a ball hone bc the ease appealed to me. Think I’ll go the extra mile and invest in telescoping guages and a flat stone hone after seeing this. I want the motor to last as long as possible after I build it again.
Always used A stone hone with different grits depending on ring type.
You can wrap the stone in emery cloth if you need. It takes some time but works.
I remember when ceramic coated piston rings came out and it was recommended to only use ball hones to hone the cylinders for them.
Yes you are correct, there was a oil consumption on the 2.0 litre AEG Volkswagen motors and VW said ball hone and install new rings.
I have only used ball hones on small aliminium bores like Briggs and Stration etc as flat hones can bind the rings.
Thanks for the informative and excellent videos 👍👍
Great video on how a home builder would think and go at it with a budget in mind.
On a related subject...everyone says you have to use a torque plate to get the best hone job. I just bolt on heads, flip the block upside down, and hone from the bottom. How do you think they honed Offys with no detachable cylinder heads?
That's not a good idea you can't over stroke the bore with the hone and it will be tapered at the top = very short ring life do it right man use a TQ plate
Some of that "wear pattern" would look different if the bores were honed with deck plates torqued on to the block.
Uncle Tony is the best because he understands that not everybody is going to be able to or wants to have an engine built by a pro shop.
That's priceless information, hard-learned from lots of experience. Thanks T.
Back when they took lead out of gas the cheap unleaded was lower octane and it would make your engine clatter .
Aka pinging
The 4 stone micrometer head hones are the best to use by far. They will actually straighten out bore taper and out of roundness. The ball hones, as you said, only restore a cross hatch pattern. The 3 stone spring loaded hones are better, but don't do anything about out of roundness or taper. A machine shop uses the 4 stone hard hones with a micrometer head. Not the 3 stone spring loaded hones.
Yep, a machine shop isn't going to use a 3 leg floppy hone. They might occasionally use one that expands the stones parallel to the bore ( Ammco 3800 ) . What they will actually be using is a Lisle 15000 or similar. This type of hone has 2 stones and 2 wipers that are adjusted with a bolt.
@@bobroberts2371
Yep. But most shops will use a Sunnen CK10 or equivalent.
@@tonyelliott7734 the CK will use a head just like the Lisle 15000
@@bobroberts2371
Yes. A 4 stone head adjusted with a micrometer.
@@bobroberts2371
You're right. I miss remembered. 2 stones, 2 wipers. My bad.
Thank you, Tony! That tip helped me a lot, I am about to start a rebuilt at home, I'll pay attention to that.
Great advice I'm gonna use on my 283 that I found out it was already at .060 over but the bores are still usable with a little honing. I've got a fresh turned crank,new bearings and oil pump so I'm gonna put it back together and see how it goes. Fun to do it yourself too!
I use a ball hone and never had a issue. If there is wear and the cylinder has a ridge then I will not use one but I have used the ball hone lot's of times at home and never once had a issue
Well, I expect they won't *cause* an issue if your cyllinders are perfect cylinders, but if things are off the dingleberry one will not *help* them or even show there's a problem.
Yea but he just perfectly explained his argument to show ball hone is trash. Why dismiss it. You salty?
@@OllamhDrab
After working in a shop ,and then building my own at home while working there I already had the block at work and got the all clear it's in great shape and got the crank polished for the cost of a couple 6 packs of beer.
Dingled it and didn't look back.
Yeah don't use em unless you have good cylinders already.
@@broseb8050 The cylinders aren't perfect after using his hone either. If you aren't taking it to the machine shop, all you are doing is installing fresh cross hatching for the rings to seat. In fact if a person wanted to waste time and argue, the ball hone cross hatches the entire cylinder, not just the high spots. I really don't think you'll see a difference between the hones on a build like that. If it was that important, it would go to the machine shop.
@@captainswampy9501 If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.