Is It Wrong To Split The Bill 50/50 On The First Date?
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- čas přidán 22. 01. 2024
- It's less about splitting the bill and more about bringing it up for the very first time ON THE DATE and then acting surprised about it.
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If you want an “old-fashioned” woman you should be paying for everything, shouldn’t you? 🙄
Came here to say this. How wild is this twist of a double standard??
Good point. However, if this is a first date, I would be paying half. That way, these guys don’t think you “owe” them something. That’s how you get a stalker.
Yeah I think that's what gets me about this dude. He wants to date a traditional woman, then dates non-traditional women and resents and 'punishes' them for it. Like, my dude... Who decided you would go on a date with someone who doesn't match what you say you want if not you?
@@Snowshowslow that is where this man and others of his ilk give away the game. they dont actually want traditional women. they simply want a standard they can chastise women for not meeting. if the problem is with the women, then the incels dont have to do any work on themselves. but they absolutely dont want traditional women, b/c ,as i said above, housewives cost money, and if he balks at paying for a single dinner i can't imagine he's going to be thrilled to pay for everything as long as they both shall live.
True they can’t have their cake and eat it too
Soooo…he wants an old-fashioned woman without him having to be an old-fashioned man?
he wants the housewife experience, but doesnt have housewife money.
Yeah you know a traditional woman who cooks cleans raises the children by herself as well as working a full time job to support him and his hobbies.
True
Louder for the people in the back!
Yes. It's called hypocrisy.
When I was dating, until we had the "where is this relationship going?" talk, I would always pay for myself, because I didn't want anyone thinking I owed them sex.
Also valid!!
Same!
Me too! And believe me, most would think exactly that.
Me too and I did it aged 16 in 1982 as well. My mother taught me that. I always pay my way and if I ask a man out a simple drink or coffee then I pay for it. That’s how I roll.
Same! But then I found out it backfired bc some men took that as a sign they didn't need to respect me or treat me right. In their warped minds I wasn't being a real woman, the same way some men are trash to women who have sex with them bc "you don't respect whores". I honestly just give up. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.
Easy solution: talk about who's gonna pay BEFORE the first date.
Exactly and if y’all can’t agree to on the specifics abt who’s paying then y’all probably aren’t meant to be
Was coming to the comments to say exactly this.
Exactly.
but then he wouldnt have anything to complain about and no one to blame for being single.
Yes! It's called communication!
he didnt tell her his expectation to split the bill b/c he was testing her. this is exactly the reaction he was looking for. he wanted a "reason" to blame her for the date going poorly instead of doing some work on himself to be the kind of guy a woman wants in her life. that being said , i am a house wife. the division of labor in my home shakes out very much along traditional lines with the exception that my husband is and has always been a fully engaged parent. i live this life that these internet bros claim they want. the reality is that any man whining about a dinner check on the first date doesnt *actually* want a house wife, b/c we cost money. these guys don't have house wife money.
"These guys don't have house wife money." That is such a slam I'm feeling the reverb of it from over here. Massive points to your house!
@@cassierobertson5778 lol. i see them all the time, they want women to do housewife work and still hold down a job. who's the REAL gold digger in that situation?
My (now ex) husband agreed with me being a stay-at-home wife and mother. But he was bitter that I actually didn't also work outside the home IN ADDITION to taking care of the home, 3 kids, errands, etc. And HIS idea of being at home, on days he explicitly claimed that he was taking a day off work to help me, was to sit in front of the computer or TV and only get up when I specifically asked him to do something "for me" then sitting right back down.
What this reminds me of is the people in touristy spots who try to grab your wrist and wrap a string around it and then claim you owe them for the "bracelet".
Except women do the same thing. If a man doesn't pay, he doesn't get a second date. If he accepts her offer to pay, he doesn't get a second date. Everything else could have been fine, and the check is what gives her the ick.
Here's the thing, "back in the day" not all women wanted to be stay at home wives/mothers they just didn't have many other options.
Literally had no access to anything without men. Also meaning this was why men were 100% responsible for finances. Look at him complaining X'D
When they asked women to join the war effort, for the first time, they enjoyed some independence. Then they asked the women to go back to the kitchen and take care of the babies. Then they wondered why they start taking some pills. They resented their now gone independence.
Also men didn’t pay for dinner as a transaction. My dad was both a chauvinist and a gentleman. He wasn’t perfect but he believed that if you ask someone you are the host.
The weird part is that he's filtering out traditional minded women by asking them to split
I think his reasoning is just a bunch of preprepared nonsense for his scripted rant. He claimed this woman wasn’t what she was “supposed to be” … based on what? It was a first date. He went in expecting to do this and to get this reaction.
he doesnt want a traditional woman, b/c a traditional woman expects a man to demonstrate that he is able and happily willing to provide for and compensate her for all the unpaid labor she will do if the relationship culminates in marriage/ children. this dude just wants to complain about women wanting his money.
@@swvolleyball9137 - She was supposed to show up in an apron with a mixing bowl and spoon in one hand and a toilet brush in the other. That way she would have proven she's prepared to cook up a meal and clean the chamber pots. Don't give me that, "but they were in a restaurant so she wouldn't be cooking anything." It doesn't matter. She needed to prove she's ready to go! Extra points if she showed up barefoot.
🤣
This exactly. Which is kind of hilarious
@@kdphotos4691barefoot with a sandwich in one hand for him and a sponge in the other
Also, I get so riled for a reason. As a 70's woman, we fought so hard to be viewed as human beings. You have no idea how hard we had to fight just to be treated like human beings. These idiots going backwards spit on the people who fought so hard just to try to have the same opportunities and value and consideration as the men. I grew up hearing everything that I couldn't do just because I was a woman, regardless of my abilities or skill set, just because I'm a woman. And when I was allowed to do things that men could do, I was supposed to accept a mere allowance compared to the pay of the men, even if I did it better. We fought for a world of equal consideration, we are still fighting, just simply to be treated like real human beings.
Thank you for saying that. I am not from the 70s, but I think GenZ might be the first generation where girls aren't being told anymore that they can't do something just because they are female. We have finally reached that point where women don't have to face these issues and can go into any career they like without being looked down on. And what's happening? Suddenly this propaganda of "being a trad wife is great" pops up.
Unfortunately true.
Thank you for your service!!! As a feminist, I admire the pioneers of this movement who fought to elevate women to their rightful place in society.
@@KK-rj7ijThe males are resisting feminism HARD.
@@sarahrobertson634 They're competing. You call it resisting. It's competition now. That's all you was asking for, right?
My first date with my husband was a coffee date and we each paid for our own coffee. I wore some pretty nice jewelry and, when he noticed it, I said, "Don't worry, I'm a feminist. I buy my own bling." I was a college instructor and he was a poor, single father, raising two kids, starting a tiny business, and working on a PhD. I was earning a lot more than he was and that was no problem. I liked *him*. We married a few years later. The irony is that, since then, I've become too disabled to work, his kids (my stepkids) have grown up and moved out, he finished his PhD, and his tiny business has done extremely well. So I hitched my wagon to a little light that then became a shooting star.
And that is the beauty of choosing a partner who suits YOU. No matter how your fortunes rise and fall, you will hopefully find yourself hitched to someone you can weather all storms in. So glad you two have love as well as security ❤
“For richer for poorer, in sickness and in health.”
Thats the thing too when a relationship is healthy you grow eachother. And then when things inevitably happen you take care of eachother. A person's worth isn't monetary.
I'm sorry for your health problems, and so happy for you that you both found genuine partners in each other!
💜
Really did hit the jackpot here, and incredibly happy for O.P. - I've been the VP of a disability nonprofit for over 15+ years and when a partner or spouse - percentages are nearly identical - becomes disabled (especially women) the unfortunate outcome is that the partner leaves. Obviously there are factors beyond simply "checking out" but the fact is that statistically; she cleaned out the strip.
That's amazing. Kudos to the husband too for not being intimidated by a successful woman and standing by her and knowing that what they have trancends the basic ideas that toxic masculinity tells everyone is ideal in a mate - they have a *mutual partnership.*
Im always reminded of that one absolutely deranged incel who encountered a woman who wanted to be a tradwife (or rather was more likely just trolling him) and apparently he both expects her to stay home and somehow pay for her self as well and take care of the kids on top, while he "works" i.e. most likely just plays vidya all day.
because otherwise she is a "gold digger who just wants him for his money."
these guys are ridiculous.
a woman being a gold digger seems to be the first thing men like this jump to now, no matter what she's a gold digger, even with stories where she's bring in all the money! it's insane
@@DoodleMcNoodles The funniest part is that men are the OG gold diggers and now they're mad that women are doing it? LOL, the ironic hypocrisy is strong. 😂 Women gold-dig for financial security in a world that invalidates women's efforts. Men gold-dig for power, control or manipulation, because most male gold diggers end up leaving the breadwinning women when they get sick. 🙄 This obviously doesn't apply to all women and all men, but I think it's hilarious that some men try to dispute this when the average unhealthy situation depicts this. 🫠
Don't you know every tradwife owns a money tree? 😂
I thought of that one too. He was mad that she "just expects me to pay for her to stay at home all day", but wanted a stay at home wife. Like dude, if you want a stay at home wife, you have to pay, that's how single income households work.
@@DoodleMcNoodles Yep, men like this are so quick to jump to calling anyone a gold digger. I've been called "a gold digger of a woman" (I'm not a woman) for saying that women don't want to date a man who refuses to wipe his own ass. Like how is that gold digging?
So he just wants a nanny, maid, and "entertainer".
Is he aware all those are already jobs he can hire someone to do?
Word.
He also wants a sex slave. He can pay for that, too. What he really wants to do is complain.
What he needs to do is consider if he wants a relationship. Also, he should get a cleaning service and a service for his laundry.
Or is it that je wants the security of the image of the 1050s, which was really an image made for advertising.
He’ll have to spend money either way, but the type of traditional housewife he has in his mind is a prize he deserves as a social reflection of his “success”. Even though he’ll personally resent her for not making money while she “just stays at home with the kids all day”.
And she just wants a sugar daddy and an ATM.
There are three totally viable ways to decide who pays for a date:
-everyone pays for themselves
-the person who asks pays
-the person with more money pays (in cases of significant wealth disparity
If you aren't financially able to pay for the whole date, negotiate with your date about who pays ahead of time.
I think it’s the “ahead of time” part they struggle with. They know it’s a deal breaker if the girl doesn’t REALLY like you…and they want that dating win so very badly. This guy probably didn’t do it because he has plans to make this video.
@@swvolleyball9137 This guy wants a traditional housewife who also somehow pays her own way. He just likes to complain, and blame the woman. He doesn’t realize that there are plenty of modern women who would happily be housewives, just not with toxic men like him. I hope he doesn’t dupe some woman into marriage and then resent her for “just saying at home with the kids all day while he has to actually work” and make the whole family miserable. Better that he just eventually give up and stick to complaining on the Internet. Better yet, he actually learn and grow and change.
It’s so sad that there’s a whole world of learning available at our fingertips, but Algorithms practically decide for us what path we go down, after just a few steps, unless we take a more active than passive role in our media consumption. Guys like this don’t have a lot of natural curiosity, unfortunately.
@@swvolleyball9137 ^this. People are too focused on 'winning the person over', or their W/L ratio on dates, to realise/accept that if gently establishing expectation for who pays on the date is enough of a turn off, they weren't that into you to begin with.
The whole 'the person who asked, has to pay' thing rubs me the wrong way a little - the implication is "well you wanted this date, not me, so you should pay for it". Don't say yes to a date you don't want? Of course there's the issue that men frequently ask women out in ways that they don't feel safe saying no to, and that's something that men need to address.
I think the expectation that the person who asks pays is ok in most circumstances. This way you can naturally take turns planning and paying for dates and you know ahead of time what you'll be paying for, which accounts for wealth disparity as well. If I can afford to take you to a nice dinner and the opera and that's what I want to do, I'm okay paying for that, and if what you can afford is coffee and hiking through nature, that's fine. Those are equally fun things. You plan for what you can afford. If we're always going 50/50 whoever earns less may feel burdened, and if every date is a negotiation ahead of time of what everyone can afford, that probably is uncomfortable for a lot of people.
For a first date, I think 50/50 is fine, I think you should pick something cheap enough that neither is burdened and neither feels it's a "waste" to walk away from the food if they need to leave early.
@@eolill oh yes, for subsequent dates, I think it's then nice to take turns organising, and you can go 'I'll pay for this one, you can pay for the next', not least because you have more confidence by that point that there will indeed be subsequent dates.
For first dates though, an expectation that "whoever asks has to pay" is like a tax on the intrepid. Both people should be curious to see where that first date might go (ie whether there's a connection there), so you each pay for whatever you get, because the point of the date is to get to know each other - the food/drinks/entertainment is just the context, the familiar scaffolding, around which to do so.
It’s really astonishing to me how many people think in transactional terms these days. Like, I have platonic friends who refuse me offering to buy them something (small) they want because they’d “owe me”. It’s doing something kind for a friend, not a sale.
Yes because you're a true friend and don't attach any strings. A lot of people are not generous like you and the person being treated doesn't know that until it's too late. Sadly, I have lost friendships behind that. They see me a charity project or a pet that they can use because they have bought me things.
@@misspriss2482yeahh that’s the thing :< one of the fastest ways to make me uncomfortable (and sometimes full on annoyed or angry) is to treat me like a pet or charity case or anything “lesser” but overtime i’ve built up an aversion to anything i view that way even if that’s not what’s actually happening…so i feel like i come off as cagey and standoffish especially when people are nicer to me, even someone like my *twin* but i really do want people to actually care about me but *genuinely* and as equals. i grew up impoverished and with undiagnosed autism and a bunch other stuff too so i was the pet project a lot, before people inevitably got sick of me.
but now i’ve noticed i’m really quick to want to do things for people or even spend money on them, even when i have very little energy and even less money. and i realize im being hypocritical, and i’d feel really sad if the roles were flipped (someone burning their self out for me) but i really do just love doing stuff for people and making them happy, even at my own expense. but part of it kinda stems from feeling like i need to be useful to be kept around as well because of abandonment stuff so idk… sorry im rambling- it’s a topic i have a lot of disorganized words about
I think it’s a reflection of the current economy. Everything is so expensive, and not everyone can afford to give things away.
Even if you feel like you are doing it out of kindness it is still putting them in a position of owing you. They feel it is, so for them it is. Happens a lot for people who have friends outside of their socioeconomic bracket. They feel either used, or patronized. Or for people who's moral compass points in certain directions. I fall here. For me, a favor begets an obligation. I may not always wish to accept that all of the time.
Never be shy to offer a kindness. Be gracious in accepting a denial of that favor.
I've had friends who would insist on doing something for me I didn't even ask for or want and then hold that over my head for YEARS to come. My rule now is to not let anyone do anything for me ever under any circumstances 😂
Until you find that old fashioned woman, get married, and realize you can’t afford to raise a family on a single income.
Interesting, seems like maybe the system has been rigged and maybe we shouldn’t be having so many kids when “living wage” doesn’t actually provide many people enough to live on. Don’t bring more kids into this bullshit, in another generation the wages, food and housing costs will be even worse
this is why i always say they dont want a traditional woman. dudes are out here lamenting women who want a man that makes 6 figures, but also expecting the full housewife experience. women are wising up. you want all that, you need to be a provider and 6 figures is about what it takes in most places to get by.
Especially since most of these incels have minimum wage jobs.
@@darcy5761 And were failed by their peers who kept teaching them BS about both: How the world actually works, and how the actual source of their low income are - with overwhelming likelihood - their own peers, not women. Aka lucky, wealthy, abusive men, gaslight their unsuccessful peers into perceiving women as the source to their problems, when in reality said men are the ones wrecking everything by equally neglecting their responsibilities towards fellow men, women and children.
Because guess which part of the population has the most resources, yet did nothing to effectively enable men to e.g. reduce work time and have more family time. Or even just having a perception for their own internal processes (from physical to mental things) or any sufficient awareness of what the worth and work of women within society is.
Or, you know, seeing to it that they have sufficient regulations skills so neither skewed criminal statistics nor things like street fights or wars are a thing. When - as it so happens - according to men - men are "doing all the things" and women supposedly are not pulling their weight, then how is it that their situation is so terrible now and somehow they are utterly caught off guard, that women do not lie any of that :'D Why didn't they notice n warn each other earlier that there's a host of unmet need for women AND within men, because the ppl who "do everything" seemingly failed to enable others to sort any of this out.
I hope we'll see more n more ppl of any genders and gender identities and sexual orientations to see that the situation is bad and to start making actually helpful choices, instead of trying to go to the past poop we already found out didn't work for anyone, men included (they were just the most oblivious to their own dysfunctions and suffering)
I can't believe there are actually guys out there who are salty women kow have human rights and agency and believe it's worth punishing them for
Genuine curiosity - not in the stitched video, but just in general, do you think that going 50/50 on a date is proof that the man is punishing the woman for women's rights?
(I ask as I'm not sure if that's the point you're making?)
@@alexharrison2743 That is not genuine curiosity, that is sophistry.
The point is the communication and sticking with the behavoir discussed not the actual behavoir itself, but you knew that. Or you should.
@@rosevan7845 no, the comment is ambiguous - I'm asking for clarity, not to trap them. All the commenter has to say is "No".
"But you knew that. Or you should."
@@alexharrison2743 If you did not obtain the answer to that questtion and all the various sub questions that question invokes in the video itself, then the problem is not the question. The problem is in your faulty processing of BOTH question and answer.
The trap is in YOUR mind and the truth is a beautiful simplicity.
@@alexharrison2743His attitude is the punishing part. Just not having money to pay for dates isn't a punishment.
He implied women “wanted” to do all the cooking, cleaning, and childcare back in the day. As if it was just a favored hobby that faded in popularity with time, and not what was expected of and forced on women by a society that saw us as second class citizens only meant for housework, motherhood and sex.
And then he says “If you’re not going to do what women are supposed to do, the sorry but you have to pay for yourself”. The inclusion of “what women are supposed to do” is blatant. Again, implying that if you’re a woman who’s not doing what society expected of us, and in some ways still does, then you’re not worth paying for. This is definitely him treating dating like a transaction, but it’s also more than that. It’s open misogyny, and it’s a bunch of blaring red flags. He says women aren’t prizes to be won anymore, but everything else he said contradicts the progressiveness of that statement in him stating what he thinks women “should” do.
And this isn’t me saying paying 50/50 is bad. I think that’s perfectly fine. It’s also fine for the women to be the one who pays for the both of them if that’s what they want. Or for them to just get two checks and only pay for what they each individually ordered. All of those are good ways to pay for dates. It’s not a bad thing that it’s becoming less of common thing that men are forced to pay for both of them because of societal expectations. But not only is it iffy for him to spring that on her without discussion, but the specific reason he refuses to pay for both of them is because she didn’t fulfill the requirements he thinks she should have. It’s gross.
Well said!
Yep, they did it because they didn't have a choice. My mother was born in a time where she couldn't get a credit card, or even a bank account, without a man's name on it.
It comes down to choice. I think it should be a choice as to who does what work. The only caveats are that men can't carry the babies and women can't provide the sperm. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to live on a single invoke without massive sacrifice unless one of you is wealthy. That is the thing everyone forgets. You can no longer provide for your family while affording a house and a car on a single income.
Very well worded! 😊
I think these guys should look up dating in Indian and Arab cultures especially the middle class and rich families. And how much family and matchmakers are involved and how both bride and a groom have some kind of files on them to weed out mental unstable candidates, guys with families and kids abroad and simply liars who lie about their property or job. Hooking up is discouraged for both genders and having some sort of side chick or affair before marriage could get them really good deals cancelled. Wealthy families with beautiful brides care a lot about reputation and won’t marry their daughters off to some creeps and horndogs. It would cost so much more than 50 bucks for dinner to simply get laid in this scenario.
When I broke things off with my fiance bc of his controlling and psychologically abusive behavior (not to mention unfulfilling sex) he actually gave me an INVOICE of all the money he had spent on me for the **9 years** we had been together, actually expecting me to pay, hand to god.
When we went to a therapist for mediation she flat out told him essentially that was batshit and that you aren't owed a refund when a relationship doesn't work out. Then he dropped the matter. But was then petty af until we were finally able to completely sever things and all his stuff was moved out.
Worst part was that he made more than me bc he was a bit older and therefore more established in his career, while I had pursued 2 degrees so I was just starting my career at 24 yo. So he def didn't need the money and he was the one who insisted we buy things I could not afford and take expensive trips. Dude was straight up nutjob.
@spitt3640 sorry you experienced a similar dynamic. You're right about unpaid labor not being valued. I feel like all SAHM should provide an invoice to their husbands for what child care, maid service (and in some cases prostitution) costs - just so they understand the value of the unpaid labor.
I was in a similar situation, minus kids, where we had made agreements ahead of time that he would pay for that trip to a tropical island and I would do all the research and planning and reservations. In other words, he would contribute money and I would contribute labor. Yet he still wanted to ignore that contract and expected a refund.
On one trip my research prevented him from getting a parasitic infection that burrows and lives under the skin - horrific, right? - I certainly think saving him from the ick factor and the medical bills to treat it was at least worth the cost of the plane tickets. 🙄
Edit: typos
What attracted you to your ex-fiance?
@karaokeandrandomclips I was very young, 19, and had just fled my abusive home a few months prior to us dating. I was dealing with big, adult problems, mostly on my own, working several jobs, trying to get financial aid without my parents co-signing (VERY difficult in the late 80s), while the majority of my peers had no worries other than what party to go to and their parents paid for everything. He was a few years older than me and had focus, drive, ambition, was acting more like an adult. It was a welcome change from the boys in my grade year. He was stable and secure, during a time when my life was chaotic and I was craving order. We had similar interests, we could talk about serious things or talk for hours. He didn't yell at me or call me names when we argued.
Unfortunately having come from literally a lifetime of abuse I had no idea what a healthy relationship looked like, my boundaries were obliterated, and so the subtle forms of abuse - like controlling behaviors - slipped under the radar, while the psychological abuse - always making me doubt myself and never feel like I was enough - were too familiar to even recognize. As the relationship progressed and we moved to a more metropolitan area he tried to make me afraid to go anywhere without him, bc something bad would happen to me in the big, bad city. But of course HE could do whatever he wanted alone. Another form of control.
As I got older I developed and grew as a person, which made him clutch on tighter and amp up the abuse. Meanwhile he stayed the same. I was already out growing him years before we got engaged. But despite the problems I kept trying to make it work bc that's what all the societal messaging was saying: make it work, be committed, do anything to keep from breaking up. Plus, he was literally the only serious relationship I had as an adult - I was with him exclusively from 19 to 28 - so I had nothing to compare it to, to understand why I was dissatisfied.
@karaokeandrandomclips not that that was really any of your biz. I just wrote that in case others find themselves in a similar situation.
I bet you wish now that you would've just let him get the infection lol. I know that's what I would be thinking.@@bossyboots5000
It isn't difficult, I tell my friends 'hey, let's grab lunch, my treat" or "I was going to go to lunch, were you going out to lunch soon, wanna meet up?' Communication is key.
If it's your intention to split the ticket, you make that clear at the start. You don't drop that after the meal has been served and consumed. I always come prepared to pay my own way, but if you drop that on me at the end of the meal, that will be the last date.
Why must a date allabendlich a superboring Dinner?
I don't date but I would do something fun.
That's a really good point: discuss it beforehand, otherwise it feels like the Asker is trying to recoup their loses for an unsatisfactory date. It's easy to say "I'd like to treat you to dinner" when you ask someone out, or "I thought we should go 50/50 so you can relax without pressure or expectations".
Why is splitting the bill not the standard, exactly? Because patriarchy? Isn't that the kind or stuff we should fight agaist?
@@randomusername3873 because he invited her to the date first. Even when I'm with my best friend, if I'm the one who invited, I would be the one paying. Of course, when there are time I don't want to pay full, I do ask for a 50/50 upfront and vice versa.
50/50 should normally be the standard, but most women have little reason to agree to the date when he's not paying, especially if she's a housewife.
In most relationships, women are expected to take care of the household, take care of the kids, AND going to work as well. If a man doesn't pay, there is little reason for a woman to feel like he's worth dating. Most men are aware of that.
@@ncrest4365We are so valuable, males have to put a down payment on our attention. That's the harsh truth.
I kind of had to convince my boyfriend to let me pay half of the bill when we started dating. For me it was a thing of pride to be my own person and carry my own costs. For him it was a way to show me he cares and also a bit of learned behavior because his previous girlfriends always expected him to pay. None of us won that discussion completely but we always talked about it and sometimes I let him pay for me now because it's important to him and sometimes i pay for myself because it's important to me. It's about communication and finding what is right for you both. Not a gender war or tradition against modern times. It's about being open for the other persons needs and thoughts
I think it's sweet that you found a balance between your independence and his desire to show he cares.
Generosity contests are awesome
I don't like 50/50. Someone always feels owed. or ripped off, or guilty for eating too much. If you both pay for yourselves, there's no problem.
Same with friend groups. My friends and I have always just gotten separate checks - I don't know why anyone would create tension by pooling everything.
Your comment made me realize I assumed 50/50 in this case doesn’t mean literal 50/50, but pay for yourself. I think with the context, for the purposes of this shorter discussion of the topic, that’s what the prof meant, too. (I haven’t listened to the podcast on the subject that goes deeper into the subject.) However, you’re right, splitting it evenly when what each person got isn’t even is bad, especially when you’re having to be careful with your money. I’m so glad so many restaurants are more accommodating of individual checks among groups these days.
Exactly.
@@jacobus57 You mean the ones that do the 50/50?
@@MegCazalet - I went out with workmates and they were buying rounds in the pub. I didn't drink so had two soft drinks. One dude chirped up that it was "your turn to buy the round." The "round" being about £50.00 when my soft drinks cost £4.00. Of course when I balked, he came out with the "I'm just joking." Yes, because publicly embarrassing me in front of workmates is always good for a laugh.
Wow, coffee and art shows and poetry readings sound like freakin awesome dates!
Personal opinion, whoever asks for the date pays regardless of gender. Clear communication beforehand is also important. If he wants a "traditional" relationship, there is nothing wrong with that. He just needs to be upfront about it. He was probably rude about the whole situation or she may not have gotten upset.
Until the significant majority of women stop expecting men to do the initial approach and ask her out, this is just 'the man should pay' with extra steps.
@@dbr0k4w Because it's not the job of the woman to ask you out if she's not the one interested, LOL. You basically just said you expect women to approach you because you're the one who's interested? Make it make sense. If you're the one who's interested, you're the one who pays for the interaction, period. If you can't pay, be open and honest about that instead of acting like an entitled golddigger, it's just sad.
he obviously doesnt want a traditional relationship, though, b/c traditionally if a man asks you out , he pays. the kind of women he describes have traditionally been able to take on all those tasks b/c their husband provided and they didnt work. if he's complaining about a dinner check, something tells me he's not going to want to pay for all her needs all the time while she stays at home to do all that "traditional" woman stuff.
He probably got angry because she rebuffed his clumsy sexual advances and then insisted she pay. Then instead of working on himself he made a video.
@@ThePsychicClarinetistThe problem is that women are interested but they rely on men to make moves. So it's this weird unintentional manipulation to make men pay. Of course that's not the goal. But that is the result.
Once when I was in college, I had a sociology professor ask who should pay on a first date. I suggested the people involved just talk about it beforehand. He not only mocked me for my answer, but he got the rest of the lecture hall laughing too, like I was crazy for thinking mature adults could have an actual conversation. 🙄
This is pretty much how I look at it, if someone wants to take me out somewhere my expectation is they want to cover for me, because if I am taking them out somewhere I am covering for them guaranteed.
You can split 50/50 if you want to but it definitely shouldn't be for the reasons that that guy made.
I will say this, a thoughtful date does not have to be an expensive date. I do have expensive taste in some regards, but what's more important to me than anything is good character and connection. If a person invites me out, plans an experience, and shares it with me, it's about how I feel, not how much it cost.
the key word here is "thoughtful" he doesnt want to put in the thought or effort.
I always go 50 50 for the check. The only exception was when my date made fun of me for reading and called me stupid. That guy paid for wasting my time.
I call that The @sshole Tax. 😂
Preeeeetty sure he called himself stupid with that.
If a person selects a location and invites someone to that location, they are entertaining them as a guest. The location could be a bar, party, restaurant or their own home. If you issue an invitation you should not expect your guest to provide their own food and drinks. (Or the money to pay for the food/drinks) unless you have told them in advance that you are inviting them to a BYOB party, a potluck or on a Dutch date.
I don't date anymore but when I did, after I was sure the guy wasn't a creep, I'd invite him over for dinner and drinks. All on my dime, ofc.
So if he wasn't a douchenozzle like this guy, he'd not only have a fantastic home cooked meal of his choice, he'd possibly get some too. 😂
So if I ask my group of friends to hang out I have to pay for 10 people?
@@randomusername3873
If ten people casually hanging out all collectively decide on a place to go between them then most people will pay for themselves. Some people might pay for each other like siblings or couples.
If you plan a big dinner at some restaurant or arrange a party then you are the host and, unless previously stated otherwise, you should pay for the event. With groups that big it's usually a mix of different cost-sharing agreements.
depends. If you invite 10 friends over to your place for dinner and drinks, then you should buy the stuff (unless you specify in your invite that everyone should bring beer/wine/dish) of course they should all offer to bring something and if you decline, they should still bring a little something (like a bottle of wine). If you are on a text thread “hey anybody want to hang at Bar Friday to watch the game?” That’s trying to organize a friend meet up, not an invite.
@@BonaparteBardithion You're conveniently leaving out the most common scenario, which is when one person texts a few friends and says, "hey, you guys want to get brunch this weekend?" or "I've been wanting to check out X restauraunt, anyone want to come?" No one assumes that means you're offering to pay for their meal.
50/50 is fine, if each of your meals are truly the same price. I had a first date that wanted to split 50/50 but his meal was significantly more than mine. Separate checks, each paying for their own. Sounds very fair.
In Europe, when we say "50/50" noone in their right mind assumes actual 50% unless it's the sort of food where you order countless small dishes and you try what you want ROFLMAO. It is WILD you'd even consider a really 50/50. We merely clarify if we bay together (and who) or separate and there's no other options than that!
Amazing. He could have tried to make a point by saying 'women are independent beings and aren't financially dependent on men the way it used to be when women were seen as prizes and property so that's why I think we should split it 50/50.' But that was a choice, a bold choice on his part.
I also think he could have gone the route of "if she wants to be a trad wife, I'll pay because I want to show her I'm willing to do my part in marriage so that she can stay home" and "a woman who doesn't want to be a trad wife should split 50/50 because she's bringing in an income as well, so it's fair". That would have been fine. But what actually came out of his mouth was pretty fucked up 😮
He doesn't believe in women being autonomous individuals. Self driving cars have more independence than he believes women should.
"We're coming into this as equals, so let's both contribute" comes across SO differently than "if you're not the bangmaid I ordered, you have to pay up."
Whoever invites, pays.
Unless you let them know before hand that you don't intend to pay for them. That way they can decide, before they're out with you, if that's fine with them or not.
You don't have to spend a lot. Just go from a coffee or a walk around a nice park.
This is an amusing idea I have seen cropping up recently, solely for the clear view it gives into women's psyches. Women became cognizant that their position on who pays the cheque was in blatant contradiction to their stated belief in equality, so they began using this justification instead. It's funny because 99% of the time men ask women out so this "new rule" doesn't change anything and because no other social outing works like this. If someone invites me out to dinner or a movie I operate under the assumption that I will be paying my share. If I invited my friend to come see a film with me and they expressed incredulity that I did not intend to pay for their ticket I would never invite them out again. Clearly then this is an attempt to maintain the status quo without obvious dissonance in women's beliefs. That they immediately pivoted to another flimsy justification to maintain their privileged position rather than do some introspection and change their beliefs reveals much about the "fairer sex".
I just think that unless the other person says, "I'll treat", it's really weird to go out with someone and *not* assume that you at least might be paying your own way. The assumption should be pay-your-own-way, with an offer to treat being above and beyond. I especially like this version, because it's a way of indicating that it's been a successful date and you'd like to invest in the relationship with this person. (And if you don't intend to see the other person again, you generally shouldn't let them pay for you).
I disagree. Why ask someone out and expect them to pay for themself. Anytime I invite someone somewhere, I am paying for them unless specifically stated in the invite. Otherwise, you're not asking them out. You're just asking them to spend their money near you.@@erinm9445
My husband tried fitting me in the traditional SAHM role when I had to stay at home because childcare... I merely told him he could be replaced by any asshat that makes money. He wasn't doing something nobody else could do. He stfu after that. It's been 23 years since then.
Good for you.
But being a full time mother to your children is something nobody else can do
"Any asshat that makes money." 🤣🤣🤣
Who can afford to have a stay at home spouse anymore? And some of these weathy guys who say they want a stay at home spouse are still single years later.
Because they treat women like crap or objects to be used and discarded.
Remember that really skinny dude who made those videos targeting guys who worked out. He was always talking about how he could buy their girlfriends and that their muscle doesn’t stand a chance against his money and fancy cars. Some of these guys sit around listening to each others depictions if women and then look shocked when we don’t manifest the way they think we do.
If a person is that worried about who's going to pay for the date, maybe he shouldn't be dating. When I did date, I always had money so that I could pay for my meal if things went south. I believe that it's a good idea for a woman to ensure that she's covered. I also think that the guy asking me out should pay for that date.
Having conversations about expectations should be a part of dating, period. If someone has manosphere expectations, you can learn this early on and leave him at the curb. And, Professor, you are right that women are not the prize. We are, however, worthy of being prized.
i tell m y 17 yo this all the time. a healthy romantic/ sexual relationship should involve a lot of conversations and if someone isnt ready to have those conversations then they are not ready for what ever activity.
Both men and women are worthy of being prized
It just seems convenient to say that someone who's worried about who is going to pay shouldn't be dating, while then also saying that you expect NOT to have to pay your own way. The original video guy is gross. But women who expect men to do the asking and the paying? That's not it either.
When dating, we were both in college and I paid for most of our dates. After we got married I supported him for a long time. I supported him because I either made more money than him or he wasn't working. Now it's his turn to support me and the kids because he has a better job than he used to and daycare is ridiculous expensive.
I live in Quebec, Canada. The vast majority of women I dated were expecting to pay their own meals/drinks/beverages. I rarely met a woman who expected to have the man pay for her. I did pay very often, but I had to ask for it, it wasn't automatic (and many weren't confortable with this).
It is cultural.
Maybe it's a Canadian thing. I'm in Toronto, and 100% expect to pay for my half of whatever activity is going on. Or do something like you pay for dinner, I'll pay for the movie, you buy concert tickets, I'll buy drinks type of thing. It just seems like basic manners. We both work, we both pay.
I was wondering if it was cultural. I live in NZ and found it astonishing how many comments say "the person who invites pays for everything" and similar ideas. Any date I go on I always expect to pay for myself.
In Ontario and it's the same. I never went out without enough to cover my part. I'm old so many did insist on paying. Which was fine too. None really expected anything in return except one guy. He was older (Boomer) and became handsy after dinner. Like dude, you really think you can get laid for a $25? 😂 I don't owe you anything?
Also if a man buys you a meal no matter how cheap he thinks you owe him sex.
I'm also Canadian. I do think it's cultural here.
This your first chance to establish communication channels with another person. Start as you intend to go along.
as a woman I think we should all pay for what we get individually if we are both working. if he makes more than me he can " treat me" if he wants to go somewhere only he can afford. But otherwise I would want to pay for my own food ( no guilt if I want the most expensive thing on the menu) and get my own tickets. if I make more than him and want to paint the town red, then he should be comfortable with me treating him sometimes. Its all about communication
I believe this is partly a generational thing, among younger folks. I'm a Gen X lady, and I've offered to go Dutch on many a first date. Never once had a man take me up on that offer.
Young ladies, hope you're able to find a kindly gentleman who is happy to pay on a date because he knows your worth and is thrilled to have the opportunity to spend time with you.
@@jacobus57 Most men biologically value women they pursue and treat - it isn’t the amount but the gesture.
Amazing how people keep saying "it's not about the money", yet it seems really about the money
"who is happy to pay on a date because he knows your worth and is thrilled to have the opportunity to spend time with you." I don't understand this at all. Why is this a gendered thing? Why shouldn't women be paying for men on dates also because they know the man's owrth are thrilled to have the opportunity to spend time with them?
As a European, splitting the bill fifty fifty is madness 😳
You pay for what you ordered they pay for what they ordered
Yeah, I don't like when men pay for me on a date, and surely I won't split 50/50.
If you want a steak, good for you, but I will probably have a cheaper dish, so I won't pay for you.
Wait--I thought "50/50" MEANS "paying for what you ordered". Does it not???
@@MayBlake_Channel as I (a European) understand North American customs yes they actually split the bill straight down the middle.
I could also be awfully misinformed.
@@justarandomgothamite5466 When I was a teenager a group of friends and I had lunch together and one of them suggested splitting the bill equally and I insisted that I wasn't paying 15 dollars when I only ate 10 dollars worth of food. Since then, I haven't had anyone suggest it before.
Then again, I was never a part of "dating culture", I didn't really do much online dating, and America is a HUGE place with 300+ million people; so it may be a common thing here and I just never encountered it. (I'm 27, btw) America has, like, bajillions of subcultures, even from people that were born here
If I'm eating with actual friends, we simply sit the bill by diners - except we pay for our own drinks.
If I'm eating with someone I don't know well, I pay for my own meal - otherwise 50/50 can get expensive, fast.
(Also not American.)
Any time a guy tells me he doesn't want to "just give a bunch of girls free dinners," I'm immediately done with him. Thank you for explaining it better than I ever could!
I saw a dating profile that said, "only respond if you're serious, I'm not paying for a $100 hug." Saying the quiet part out loud...
@@catxtrallways a valid point!
@@sophistahfunk the part these men don't seem to get is that these women LIKED them enough to say yes to a date. If she only wants a hug by the end of it, it's because he managed to lose her interest in the time it takes to have a meal.
@@cassierobertson5778 The part you don't seem to get is the thousands of dollars a man might be expected to pay across various unsuccessful dates, while women have to pay almost nothing. If you like them so much, maybe you should pay for the food you ate. I thought we wanted equality and for us to see one another as human beings. But I guess that only applies when you get to benefit from it.
Not that I think it makes much sense to write "I'm not paying for a $100 hug" in a dating profile, but I can at least empathise with being expected to initiate, take the lead in dating, drive the conversation and pay for everything, just because of the genitals I was born with.
@@blueredingreen I'm assuming you're using "you" in a general sense, rather than referring specifically to me? Since you don't actually know whether or not I even go on dates, much less if I pay for myself?
Gay men here... very confused... on a "traditional date" who of us should pay? Should we just fight about who gets to pay? Is that fighting done naked like the old greeks did wrestling? Kinda need to know in case we ever get divorced and i meet a hot guy that i want to wrestle naked.
Also was in a similar situation when i met my husband... he was making bank and i was a broke loser trying to make it as a photographer... our first date was at a McDonalds because i worked there and he picked me up after my shift... and the second date was him showing up at a Gallery i was having a show....
😂😂😂😂
I am terribly sorry but also happy to inform you, that in old days the rules for you were "date and choose death" (that's the terrible news and I am deeply sorry). Thus, since the old days are over, ya all get to make brand new rules for yourselves. There's no "old rules" to go back to, that apply to ya all. That is the good news.
So if you want to you CAN technically wrestle it out, but since you'll then conflict with general public rules (aka no brawling, no public nakedness [outside of assigned areas] I suggest you side-step the issue and make it either a "foot fight, if we're noticed, we both loose" beneath the table OR you actually pay 50/50 and then go some place private to nakedly wrestle out the right to demand a refund TO the other party, thus proclaiming yourself the breadwinner of the day! 😝
"Put in a penny and get out a Gumball?" Nah, bro.
Men paying for everything comes from a time where weren't allowed to make their own money.
But wom3n still lose money in relationships. Motherhood penalty is a reality. Even for a normal dinner, wom3n spend so much money (make up and the works to get ready because beauty standards for wom3n are higher in society) and time. M3n always pay for female companionships rather than the other way around. It is always privilege for a man to have a woman rather than the other way around.
Yes, and traditionally the person making decent money (the man) invited the woman out and paid for the dinner and activities. Then the person making nothing or at most pin money (the woman) would reciprocate by inviting the man for a home cooked meal or a picnic.
I met my boyfriend at the library.
We started out as friends. Falling in love came later
Yup and seemingly he wanted those old times back, just not...actually XD
I once had a guy pull the 50/50 thing on the first date. This was before I knew that nice guys weren't, and had only gone on the date because he seemed like anice guy. He talked about himself the entire time. I quietly went "to the bathroom", arranged with the waitress to pay the entire bill, and left. When he called to ask me out again I told him that since he was too broke to pay for the first snoozefest I wasn't interested in paying for another.
You were fine until you shamed him for being poor
@Ash_Wen-li He wasn't poor. He made significantly more than I did at the time, spent a large amount of the time bragging about his worth, and he did the asking out. The man I married was actually a poor college student who hasn't stopped being an actual nice guy in the 33 years that I have known him.
Only talking about himself and bragging sounds definitely awful, but I don't see the problem about him wanting 50/50. What's so bad about it?
Great move except you should have only paid for yourself.
So the problem with splitting the bill was?@@irrelevantduckfan4413
Absolutely!!
The "transactional" guys often turn out to be the same ones who end up *having to pay* for "action". A nicer gal will happily pay her 50%, when approached w/ the option & explanation that this Dude Bro proposed. Then, she'll block him on her cell phone, knowing she dodged a bullet. Not b/c she minds paying, but b/c he made it *clear* that he'll never actually Respect her.
I can kind of agree with you, but there is also another scenario to consider. He could be transparent from the jump and if she agrees, they go out. She could go 50/50 and decide that aside from that, she actually likes him. Don’t assume that all women will dump a guy for a 50/50 arrangement or that a request for 50/50 is an indicator of a lack of respect. I think context is needed. This douche canoe in the video is a POS and definitely has no respect for women…but some guys simply don’t have it…and that’s fine … as long as there’s communication.
I see that someone responded, but I can't see the reply itself. So, just want to add a comment to clarify...
Men who treat gals as if we were *ALL* gold-diggers or "escorts" will end up *Only* attracting the kind of gals they say they Don't want. A certain former POTUS now in court (again) is a *prime example* of this scenario. Do you think his wife *truly* loves him, or does she love his money, instead? How about his previous wives? Or Stormy? Or that other chick?
You get my drift.
When a guy uses the term "high-value" to describe the type of lady he wants, it indicates that women are merely *things* to be acquired, in his mind. Stocks are "high-value". Fancy cars & boats are "high-value", as are other toys. I've never heard any gal call a man "high-value" b/c we tend to look at them as people first. For the wretched ones, we use *other* terms, lol.
We *must* love ourselves, at least a little, before we'll be able to love anyone else *properly,* regardless of gender. If there's *nothing lovable* about us, well...
I suspect that the guys who view All females as mercenaries coming for their riches realize that they themselves have *little else* to offer besides funding.
Such men should seek help in developing the riches that money *can't* buy. These are the riches that decent, self-respecting women want most (& offer in return):
▪︎ Be *trustworthy* & basically *honest.* Everyone tells a little white lie occasionally, but *don't* make it a habit. We're w-a-y smarter than chauvanists realize. Once a guy loses our trust, he'll likely never regain it. That's when we start looking for the *exit,* tbh.
▪︎ Have a *sense of humor,* the kind that *doesn't* require someone else's humiliation. Being able to *laugh together,* even in the face of challenges, is *crucial* to a enjoying a long, happy union.
▪︎ Be willing to *share* the workload & costs of Life *fairly.* Women are typically paid less than men, and then come home to a heavier workload for which there is no pay other than the *health & happiness* of their family. Appreciate that fact, and *do your part* at home, too. Even if she's a SAHM, she deserves a break, too. If you had to pay for *All* the many services such moms provide - nurse, maid, cook, driver, day-care, etc - the total cost would probably be much higher than your salary.
*For real.*
▪︎ *Be kind,* if you want to win a *kind* woman's heart. Without that ability, you won't win it. *Kindness* is the key, *not* a joke. The ability to both feel *&* show *compassion & empathy* fall under the heading of Kindness. W/o it, this world becomes just one more circle of Hell, rather than a planet we *want* to pass on to our kids & grandkids.
Will having all of these traits (while looking for the *same* in a mate) work on EVERY woman? No. But keep looking till it does, and chances are you'll have found an *ideal life partner.* That's Far Better than just having a toy to break & replace, isn't it? Therapy *can* help insecure guys make the needed changes to actually find *real* happiness. The kind that that *doesn't* make others miserable.
*Good luck,* honestly. This world needs *healing, Not* more bullies, just out for whatever "power" they can get. Love *really IS All* that it's chalked up to be. Make choices that draw it *to* you, rather than drive it away. 💖
His attitude is the big turn off. Not his finances.
It is important for me to know if my date is willing to split the bill more than actually splitting the bill as well. Because it shows that she's also serious about me and not using me for a free meal.
And some girls do that. My sis does that, her friends do that. I don't want to be used as well. So asking to split the bill shouldn't be a red flag
@@AyushGupta-wn6zd Have fun alone, love nugget.
My previous gf, on our first date, forbade me to pay.
Also I'm Dutch - if things get expensive it'd be weird not to split
To me it comes down to doing what you're comfortable with as well as what feels reasonable and applicable. Don't cross your boundaries (comfortable), but do of course keep expectations of the other in mind (reasonable and applicable, second one is more culture-wise).
As a female, I always insist on paying for my own way on a date. If I can’t afford to go out and pay for myself, I turn the date down. If he wants to pay, I just tell him that until I feel comfortable and know him enough and have decided that I am attracted to him that is a hard no, because I don’t want anyone to think I owe them something. I also believe that they should pay their own way. I am not going to pay their way. If they order and can’t pay for their food at the end of the meal, I will pay for mine and then get up and leave. Telling the server that they will be figuring out their part. I make it clear in advance of how this will be working too.
I don’t like cheap restaurants. I only like restaurants that have a quiet atmosphere. I don’t go out unless I can afford to spend the money for myself to eat. I have no intention of paying for his meal at that restaurant. I mean if he is old enough to date me, I am in my late 50s he should be able to afford to eat at the restaurants I like to eat at. On the same note though, when I pick an expensive restaurant, I intend to pay for myself. I let him know this will be Dutch and he should be prepared to pay his own way. I don’t split 50/50 because I love me some expensive steak and seafood. I also don’t drink, so I am not going to pay for half of his alcohol. Although, if he orders anything more than a single glass of wine, he won’t get a second date. Drunk people scare me!
Woman here. I enjoy being treated on dates, it's nice. But I have zero issues also paying my own way. I also enjoy paying 100% because it's nice to treat the people I care about. It doesn't have to be this big power play...
That's the thing. They struggle with human relationships and then - in their state of inability of making good calls - go and run with their head canon and that of peers on why things are not working. They struggle to make the connection of how obsessing over power dynamics is a form of self-sabotage and self-fulfilling prophecy. They are getting EXACTLY what they asked for. And ofcourse some of them will genuinely have started out from a bad experience with a misogynistic woman (yup, cause they don't respect feminism or women stepping up their ability to provide).
And we just know that it's psychologically a thing. Ppl who've experienced abuse, have a higher chance to experience it again. And part of how it happens, is lack of ability to recognize the correct causes and make good decisions on the prevention parts. He's an example. He even got input on how to handle things better from a fellow man who's visibly quite regarded by women for how he explain things. Yet, instead of reflecting, he doubled down and swung his red flag even more briskly, while implying that he couldn't possibly have any part in how he's the one component of that math, that stays constant throughout various attempts to date (if they were even a thing).
I really don't like the idea that one should pay for a date because they did the asking out. That makes it, at least to me, seem more transactional, not less. Like, "I will pay you with a meal if you give me a chance to impress you" comes off WAY more transactional than, "Let's hang out, maybe grab a bite to eat together, get to know each other, pay for our own stuff as if we're still just friends". The comparison to a business dinner only further emphasizes that "this is transactional; they want something from you, so they're giving you something in return". It does not feel mutual, it feels choc-full of power dynamics. It also incentivizes women to not take the lead and ask men out, which is, I should think, the opposite of the goal.
If you want to go on a date with someone, you shouldn't do it in exchange for someone covering your meal, or ticket, or what-have-you. You should just agree to it because you want to. You should both mutually want to explore the potential of whatever relationship you two have and may have, rather than expect anything in return for your time. Expecting something in exchange feels like entitlement.
I think you make a lot of great points. Though I also think that what the Prof meant with the biz analogy (admittedly not the best) was that when someone invites you out to dinner they are offering a gift: Hey, I like you (or in biz case I like what you have to offer) so I'd like to give you this gift of this meal. It's a nice gesture. Someone else stated in another comment, it's like hosting. If you invite friends over for dinner you don't expect them to pay for the food or cook it, they are your guests (unless it's stated to be a potluck situation). Or if someone says they have 2 tickets to a show and invites you as their date, it's understood that ticket is a gift and you're not expected to pay for it. Your company is its own gift.
Though I do wish more men stopped viewing dates as transactional bc it puts women in such a bind:
* If you let them pay for the date then you have to worry they feel entitled to sex (and may become angry or unsafe when you don't provide it).
* If you pay your share then those types of men take it as a sign they don't have to treat you well or respect you bc you're taking on a masculine role.
Honestly, I'm exhausted by it.
Caveat: of course there are women out there who abuse the gesture and try to milk a guy for money and tangible gifts whenever they go out. And that's crappy too. I had a friend who never even took her wallet with her when she went to bars bc she knew/expected guys to buy her drinks. Whereas I always went with enough money to cover my drinks. I guess you could say she was a playa, while I was trying to opt out of the game altogether.
And I think that's what you're saying: let's opt out of this game.
"Your company is its own gift."
I think we agree here, but I'd like to make sure I'm being clear, as it's something I feel I struggle with. I think it's fine to give each other literal gifts (paying for the other person, amongst other things), and I certainly think if one doesn't view the other person's company as a gift, they probably shouldn't be going on dates together, but I don't like the idea that the "gift" of one's company is a response to the "gift" of being paid for. IF one choose to pay for the other, it should be given freely, not out of obligation, and not with any expectations. IF one accepts the date, it should be because they want to spend time with the other person, they want to see if they have chemistry. No one should be tracking who owes who what, because nobody owes anyone anything. Gifts should be given freely, without expectation, or else it's not a gift. Everyone involved should consider the other person's company a gift.
Other than that (probably unnecessary) clarification, I believe we're in agreement.
@@dragonreborn56789 agree 💯
i am from the south eastern US and here the cultural norm is that if you invite anyone any where you pay, unless otherwise discussed. this isnt just for dates, it's for any social outing.
@@VisshaldarI think you’re mixing up wet and cold here… it’s One thing when someone specifically invites somebody else to Specific location, be it a date, friends, colleagues whatever, but it’s an other thing when people expect their date to pay for them Just Because they were Asked out, not even invited, but Asked out! Why do you even accept dates then? For free meals??
He asked her out then springs that on her when the check shows up? He’s already acting shady on the first date. I woulda left him there. BYEEEEEEEE. 😂
Hey give him some props. He did a very splendid job waving his own little red flag openly and I do actually commend him for that. I much prefer that over any sneaky abusers wasting both of our time
@@KxNOxUTA agreed!
Inviter pays. I'm not splitting the bill on a first date if the other person asked me out, or else there won't be a second date. And if I'm asking someone out I'm making sure I go prepared to pay for both of us.
If there is a reason for the guy to pay, for example he recommends an expensive restaurant after she recommends a coffee shop (true story), then he should be paying. Someone mentioned discussing ahead which is wise. At the very least, when the check comes, say something like “should we spilt the bill.” Don’t just ignore it for the next hour (true story). And like the video said, going somewhere inexpensive or free, always ok. One first date I had was walking around a farmer’s market. One of my all time favorite first dates. In the end, if a guy intends to split the bill and the woman is surprised by it, most likely she will graciously pay and never go out with you again.
When a sexual relationship is being considered, like when people are dating to find out if they're willing to get married and have children, a woman should be wary about how a man who expects to split the bill for all dates. Being pregnant is fraught with risks including death, and a woman should seriously consider what the man's reaction is going to be if he finds that he's become a widowed single parent. If you're going to die to have a child you want the child to be safe, not abandoned for not paying its own way. Equal status as human beings with equal adult responsibilities doesn't inherently exclude responsibility for the welfare of others, and a man who's willing to provide for his date will be willing to provide for a child. Having said that, planning dates and how to pay for them is fine in well established relationships.
I hate awkward situations. If I ask someone out - coffee, lunch, dinner, movie ... whatever - I pay. If someone asks me out - I offer to pay my share as soon as that person asks if I'd like to go out on that date. All it takes is saying: "Sure, I'd love to. I'll pay my share though.". My potential date can agree to that or offer to pay for mine. Eliminates any awkwardness for either of us when we're on that date.
What does it cost ,to rent a Uterus?Women get payed waaay less for the same work....AND loose a lot of Pension ,when having children.....
If you invite someone, unless you make it abundantly clear youre covering them to some degree..... Like not even just dating..
if your homie says i wanna take you to see this movie, its really cool.... that ticket should be covered, even if snacks arent.... like let people know or word your invitations different.... like "lets go out together this weekend," is different than "i wanna take you out"
I said something similar in another comment. It's not hard to communicate the expectations simply with how you ask.
OMG. That's the steak dude! Lol. He hasn't evolved. 😂
I recalling a plate of a beautiful medium-rare steak with one or two scrumptious sides of what was it? Sweet potato fries and green beans? Dude complained that it wasn't well-done? Is this the same philistine?
Women should always offer to split the bill, men should always offer to pay, that awkward pay dance is a ritual tradition that must never be skipped.
It’s just polite! Manners aren’t nonsense! And if both parties do the polite thing, then we women can still ultimately split the bill! @@jacobus57
It's basic courtesy for the person who invites to pay for the invitee (the "guest")--the sexes/genders of those involved don't matter. If money is any kind of issue, both/all parties need to discuss it _before_ going anywhere. Waiting until the bill arrives at the table and then stating your expectations is a horrible choice, even if you're the guest and plan to pay for yourself; it can create unnecessary tension with someone just who wanted to treat you.
@@thetimekeeper955when I meet with friends for example, it's not clear who invited whom. But it's clear, everybody pays for themselves, except one explicitly says they invite and gonna pay for it.
That's how it goes in my bubble in Germany.
Your and your wife's story is so cute! Such sweet love ❤
So it's bad when the woman wants to stay at home and be traditional, but it's fine for a man to want a traditional wife... if you don't want to pay the full bill, that's fine. Be upfront and actually have a conversation with her about it. stop hiding behind "alpha male" "ideologies" and learn to be your own person.
Stuff like this is why I don't date, this and dates feeling like job interviews. And the fact that I'm independent and in my fifth decade so I just don't care anymore. I like my own company. I just cannot get on the dating bandwagon anymore.
He said that women these days no longer do "what women should do": "cook and clean and take care of the kids". Oh holy hell. That's right, women don't like being treated like the only purpose of their existence is to serve and never advance in employment or be given opportunities to have full lives. At the heart of it, he simply wants the woman to treat him like he's her entire world with nothing else, while he treats her like a piece of his personal empire. Imagine another human being not wanting to be treated like this, hunh, wild. Thank you, Prof, for picking up this clip and responding so wisely!
As a girl/woman, I've never had an issue "going Dutch" on the first date, and I thought it was perfectly normal. But certainly not because I'm "not doing as a woman should." This isn't a trade. If I had heard that sentiment, it'd be our _last_ date.
Right? (BTW, how did you get your text to appear as italic?l
@@bossyboots5000 Surround text with _ underscores _ for _italic,_ surround with * asterisks * for *bold.*
I wish more men would talk about how the expectation to pay makes us feel used, or that we have to somehow subsidize our date's time with monetary compensation, instead of throwing the issue back at women, telling them to regress into some depressing tradwife model. Be honest, fellas: nobody likes feeling exploited or like their kindness is expected instead of appreciated. If we approached it from that angle more, I bet we'd get a lot more empathy. But that requires a bit more vulnerability than most men are willing to profess.
I am privileged enough to afford paying for both myself and my date; I don't go on dates often enough that it's an issue. If I were going on dates twice a week? Yeah, it'd be a problem, and I am not sure what I'd do then. But I generally try to approach it with the "I'll get this one, you get the next one!" approach so nobody feels ambushed. Obvious exceptions aside for women who make much less than I do.
I am also fortunate enough that some of my dates have volunteered to split the bill. That was very appreciated, even if it didn't work out for other reasons.
Everything you shared here makes great sense. Thank you for helping to shift the perspective while also recognizing women's desire for autonomy.
You have a mature approach that's why.
Great post! My only quibble--and its with the culture, not with your post--is that it's *crazy* that there is any idea that a woman could feel ambushed by being expected to pay for what she orders on a date. I'm a woman, and that level of entitlement that the man (or "host" as people are calling him here) would pay is something I can't wrap my head around. And in practice, if it's a good first date and I intend to see the guy again, then I'll let him pay if he offers (I'll still offer to split it, but it sort of feels like a formality)--but then I'll get the next one.
If you guys talk about it and agree then do what you agreed on
When it comes to who pays for what on dates, remember this: Set expectations ahead of time.
I've been dating the same girl since 2014. It's long distance and we haven't had our first in person date yet, but we've had many online/webcam dates just watching movies together. I will say this, if she tells me that she wants me to pay for everything on the first date. I'm fine with that. If she'd rather we split 50/50, I'm fine with that too. Whatever makes her happy, so long as she tells me her desires ahead of time.
And this goes for both parties. If you prefer to go 50/50, tell your date that. Worst case scenario, the other person cancels the date on you. But please, please, do not wait until it's time to pay and THEN say you want to go 50/50 or ask how they'd want to handle the pay. ALWAYS set expectations before the date itself. It'll avoid arguments.
U want a "traditional" woman be a traditional man. Sole provider, meaning you pay for everything.
Interesting. I'm an Aussie and I'd say 50/50 was the norm for a date but I haven't dated in nearly 20 years.
Im in NZ, and find all this confusion about paying weird. I find it normal to pay for myself on dates.
@@roninboxerswow interesting. Yes in America it’s custom for men to pay for the first date. It’s an old tradition that needs to vanish as the default. Often men in America feel the pressure to have to pay.
That is a shame, it adds another crazy social rule for people to struggle with, and get off on the wrong foot.@@jamesniagu274 And I have seen comments from some women who absolutely expect it as a given, and I just find that so off putting....
(though this expectation would make more sense for people setting out wanting a very traditionally gender roled marriage, because then the man would pay for everything while the woman runs the family and household.)
If guys are really blowing that much money on dates then be more selective idk. Try having a few conversations with her first instead of playing a numbers game.
Personally, I dont mind helping with expenses, but I want to see the guy take initiative on the first date or two.
I vividly remember my "nice" boyfriend saying "But I bought you dinner!" when I wouldn't put out on the second date. From then on you're damn right I paid for my share. (And when I really wised up, he became my EX-boyfriend.)
I love your messages so much - so glad to see kind and open values on YT. There’s SO much toxicity out there that just breeds more toxicity, and I’m sure a real internal struggle for many people.
Please keep going, we need this!
Spending money on your significant other is neither the responsability of the man or the woman alone. It's about wanting to make the person you love happy.
When my girlfriend and I go out, I usually pay. Not 'cause I'm the man, nor 'cause I'm getting more out of it. But because I know every dime she gets she is spending in her long term goals, and she doesn't always get to do that. And I'm not rich, but i'm more stable.
Last time, we went to the movies together, and she knew I was in a bit of a tight moment money-wise, and she was in an even tighter. So I payed for the tickets and the cheapest combo. And she, with the only money she had on her account bought me some nachos.
I have never been as happy about nachos as I was that day.
Is been decades since women didn't just want to be only a stay at home mom. I'm super close to 50 already. In any relationship, starting or old. Friendship or beyond that. Communication is key.
Women never wanted to be just a stay at home mom. They didn't have any other options.
Men used to know how to fix things and made enough for an entire family to live on when women stayed home and cooked and cleaned.
And women chose that over being sexually assaulted by randos at a job outside the home (no surprise) but many women were horribly depressed that their lives were so limited. Those were terrible times for women.
I make good money and I've offered to buy dinner for my boyfriend and me, especially if I set up the date. But as a woman who makes serious money, smells nice, and has a lot to offer in other ways, I'd pass on anyone who plans the outing, chooses the restaurant, and won't at least offer to pay on the first date. As The Speech Prof said, there are plenty of free outings.
A serious relationship with the opposite sex should be about mutual respect, admiration, harmony and building a soft place to land in the long run. And if it's not serious it should be about fun.
Pissed off first guy does not resemble fun. If he doesn't want to pay at the restaurant/movie he doesn't have to. He can pay for 5 minutes of female companionship the old fashioned way.
I think this is culturally different in Canada. Splitting the bill is the norm. Unless someone says "my treat" or "can I take you out for dinner" that implies they're paying.
If someone wants to split the bill that’s usually fine. It can depend on how unfair it is if someone gets something way more expensive. The person who got the cheaper food might have to pay quite a bit more than what they had order meanwhile the other person pays less than what they ordered. I think is someone wants to split the bill I think the better way is to have each person pay for their own food. Then everyone pays for what they were able to afford. You really never know someone’s financial situation
The dating thing is simple. Etiquette 101 says if you invite, you pay. The person who takes the initiative should pay for the first date, be ause the other person doesnt yet know if you are worth their time. Then you should have a grown up conversation about how the dates will get paid for going forward. If you turn this very simple formula into a test or a game, then you will get what you deseve. Trash.
My take on, "who should pay," when it comes to dates, especially first date, is:
Either whoever initiated the date and asked the other person out, regardless of gender, should be the one paying (like, it was your idea, if you hadn't talked me into coming on this outing, I wouldn't be here spending this money) or you each pay your own way and use the date for what dating is meant for, which is time set aside as an opportunity to get to know eachother.
I feel like this way is fair and respects each persons' autonomy and isn't simply saying, "I asked you out but I refuse to pay for your portion because I don't think you're worth it if you aren't going to be Suzy Homemaker." I think if you're going to do a pay your own way date that it should be agreed upon beforehand not, "hey, I know I asked you to join me on this date, it was my idea and all, but, by the way, you're going to have to pay for yourself."
I feel like the most fair and least confusing way is for each person to assume they will pay for themselves. Then, if one person WANTS to treat the other person, they can offer, and great! Or maybe it's a situation where someone says, "I'd like to take you out somewhere nice." Then you are offering to treat, yes, but I don't like the assumption that every date--espeically every first date, when you don't even know each other yet usually--should be this kind of treating situation.
I'm so glad you are out here sharing your goodness. These awful, misogynistic videos that you comment on shock me! I didn't realize there were so many men out there who still think of women as their babysitters, their prizes, their conquests, and their servants, and who are completely comfortable complaining online about the fact that women don't enjoy being those things for them. Thank you for speaking out and for being a friend and advocate. You are very appreciated.
So he’s looking for extremely cheap maid, xes work, child rearing, and chef services… cool cool 🙄
1) Use words instead of expecting your partner to be Charles Xavier
2) Women shouldn't expect free food
3) Men shouldn't expect sex
There's a lot of first date problems, solved
I taught my children that if you make the invitation, you pay, unless you discuss ahead of time that you’re going to get separate checks.
As someone who is trans masc, and went on several dates under the pretense of being a woman before realizing that I was trans, I feel as though the first date you shouldn't expect the bill to be fully paid for by your date. You aren't a couple yet, you don't know eachother, and you should treat it as if you were doing a get together with a friend and bring your own cash. Be pleasently surprised if they offer, but be willing and ready to pay for yourself.
Lol I know a couple who split their bill even after they got married with children. I saw them split the bill for coffee. 😅
I was with him until he started to explain himself🤡
I'm loving his insinuation that "back in the day" women all "only wanted to be stay at home moms and cook and clean." Yes, the reason so many women were stuck at home is because that's what they WANTED. That's why as the labor force opened up, so many women said no thanks and stayed...oh. Welp.
I think I let my husband pay on our first date, but we usually went dutch. He had a better job than me, but I didn't want to be a freeloader. I was in college and working part-time, he was a teller at bank. Now, he is the stay-at-home parent while I work at a job that I love. We are both happier this way and it works for us.
Men who never get past 1st dates: Why am I single? Must be the women's fault.
"Hey, before we go out, do you hope to become a stay at home mom, cooking and cleaning all day? Yes? Then I'll buy your meal."
Didn't didn't even address "what women SHOULD DO."
Ettiquette says if you invite someone to dinner you are the one paying. If you want to split the check then you discuss it when you proffer the invite. It is also good manners to choose a meal that is just under or at the same price point as the person who is paying....unless they specifically mention that they want you to order something more expensive than they are wanting.
It's really not that complicated and it is a shame that some people make the nicest thing you can do with a person or group of people into a transaction for personal gain.
Or do the thing where, if you're going out to dinner then one of you gets the drinks (and maybe dessert) and if you're going to the movies one buys the tickets and one gets the snacks (which half the time can be more than the tickets.) If someone is nice and buys your coffee order, offer to get pastries to go along with it. Or offer to get the coffee first next time... sometimes I'll duck in line first to treat whoever I'm with, and sometimes I get surprised by the treat. It really honestly doesn't have to be that tough!
(Financial is different... maybe I will treat someone I know is struggling a little more, but that also takes knowledge of how sensitive the other person could be about it. So... still communication.)
You want a partner, he wants an excuse to be angry and upset at the world. Both of you have been successful in what your looking for, I think only one of you is going to be happy with what you got though....
As a boomer, I always paid. Always. Course women back then were differant so it made it easier to do so. No real expectations of fancy restaurants at the git go.
Millennial here - most of our early-dates were lunch or coffee, too, I think. Quick, inexpensive, low-pressure, nothing to do but talk to eachother.
I usually assume everyone pays for themselves unless someone specifically says they'll pay for me. But also the person who invites someone may be expected to pay for the person who was invited
I split the bill on a first date because I have money, and I think it's rude to expect another person to pay for me when I can pay for myself (unless he specifically offfers. But I might offer to pay for him first, depending on the circumstances).
This is an opinion I hold regardless of gender.
By the way, my husband was broke when we started our relationship so most likely I paid for the date.
I have no issue going dutch, but let's state it up front. Personally, I've always thought basic manners, whomever extends the invitation pays regardless of genitals.
My rule is that it's the person who invites the other person on the date
Guys, if you haven't done it before, try this. On the phone or via text, you say, "To be honest, I'm a little strapped for cash right now, but I'd really like to spend some time with you. What do you say we go Dutch this time?" Setting expectations before the date is going to go better than just making it an unpleasant surprise at the end of the meal/movie/whatever.
When I was single I dated a couple of very transactional guys who thought that because they'd paid for the evening, they were entitled to my body. I had to tell them that if they felt that way, they were looking for a prostitute, not a date. I started suggesting to dates that we go Dutch, and I started showing up in my own car rather than letting a guy I didn't know that well pick me up, because I didn't want anyone to try the ploy of "I paid for the evening, so pony up" ever again.
I would typically go on the person who invites and choses the place typically pays. Either person can offer a split, e.g. maybe if you stay longer and the drinks bill risies.
Personally I never really had much issue as I hated 'posh' meals as dates, I always found the settings too formal and not good for conversation.
I would stick to grabbing a coffee or a drink in a pub, with a visit to a gallery, museum, art installation or such. It's more casual, and you get to chat and get to know eachother more.