Do You Dislike “Vocal Fry” OR Do You Just Dislike Women?
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- čas přidán 31. 01. 2024
- Melissa Lozada-Oliva is genuinely one of my favorite poets ever and her book "Peluda" (published by @ButtonPoetry is one of my favorite books of poetry that I have ever had the privilege to own.
I teach and study communication for a living. One of the areas of study that I have focused on throughout my career is in understanding why we view certain styles of speech as “good” and why we view certain types of speech as “bad.”
It shouldn’t be much of a surprise that what we tend to define “good” with the traits typically associated with white able-bodied neurotypical men.
It’s the same reason that certain accents are considered desirable and other accents are considered undesirable. When we talk about structural discrimination, it affects literally everything, including our language and what we value as “good.”
And it’s not just vocal fry. For generations, young women, especially teenagers, are often the first to adapt new styles of speaking and there is always a backlash against it. However, when you look back years later, the “new” speech ends up being adapted by older men and women and you’d never know that it was controversial.
Morgan Freeman, James Earl Jones, Orson Welles, Hugh Jackman, David Attenborough, Benedict Cumberbatch, Kelsey Grammer, Patrick Stewart, are just some of the men with vocal fry. All famous for their terrible voices.
Just because he has a vocal fry and an inability to pronounce the word "penguin" is no reason to misspell Cucumber Bumblethatch's name like that.
How terrifying is it that while english is not my native language, that I had never heard about vocal fry being bad, I still thought I hated it but never noticed it on men and therefore only hated it in women? How easily can mysoginist ideas get in our heads? :/
@@lnsflare1Your joke wasn’t funny. 😕
Question for you- is vocal fry a thing in your language, and which gender does it?@@clx3909
@@LilacSreya I dunno, at least 11 people seemed to like it as of yet, and it's the type of joke that Dumbledore Cabbagepatch has himself cracked up over during an interview, especially the part about penguins.
It's almost like we get mad at women for not talking in a high, sweet "feminine" voice, but don't care how little effort men put into their tone
It's almost like people get mad at women for talking.
For expressing themselves.
For thinking of themselves first, before they consider others.
For having opinions.
For having any opinion contrary to what the misogynists in the room want to believe they 'should' have.
For using a vocal register that grates on misogynist ears because it's not soft and feminine and sweet, and it's not saying what they want to hear or agreeing with them.
For women declaring their independence from social norms with each breath, and every word, even if those women have never said the words, ever.
Any voice. Watch a woman speak in a high sweet feminine voice in a business meeting and see how seriously she’s taken.
I have a very feminine voice. I’m told I’m annoying, oooor, if they do compliment my voice, it’s creepy and sexualized and either way im treated like I’m dumb. There’s no winning.
This works for everything. Women presenters will always be criticised for the way they dress. Trying to think of how a man could get criticism in the same situation, the only thing I could come up with is that a man would be criticised if he did actually show up in a dress (see the fuss made about Harry Styles wearing a dress on a fashion magazine).
@paulhammond6978 A guy would have to show up to a black tie party in ragged sweatpants to get a faction of the hate a woman gets for not wearing makeup, in most tabloid rags. Guys= comfortable, but a girl in the same outfit? Trashy! According to the gossip rag
As a Black woman, I can confirm that my voice and my pronunciation are always critiqued with disdain.
That's sad :(((( i love hearing black voices (is that a correct term ?), they are so much more beautiful and profound than whites. I'd love to have one too haha
. We literally just have voices. Voices often mixed with english and a little of our ancestors. Still, just voices. One of the most irritating things in the world is being told i dont "sound black" @@judyp.
@@adrianhartso7060 yeah of course, i never said that black people's voices are no normal voices. I just said i love them. Every ethnicity has their own unique voice and sound. And of course, there are exceptions. Don't feel bad for it, I'm sure your voice is beautiful anyway. ❤ (and if it helps you - i think i can imagine a bit how you feel. Many of my African friends make fun of my voice because they are not used to it. Same goes for my nose, lips etc..)
Just love yourself, everybodyis unique! :)
There's numerous studies on how worldwide my language and my accent when I speak English are considered the ugliest there are.
I have never gotten even a fraction of the shit online for the way I speak than African-Americans and white North-American women.
@@RoonMian German?😅
Men dont police other men's voices--unless race or sexual orientation comes into play. So yes, it is 100% about shutting some people up.
Men definitely police other men's voices. But it's always in a homophobic, misogynistic or racist way: "you sound gay", "why you talk like a girl?", "stop talking like you're black"...
They never say "you should stop talking like a rapist" or "you talk like a violent asshole"
Only a sith deals in absolutes. No, it is not 100% about shutting poeple up. Most things aren't. Put another way, people who dislike vocal fry are not inherently misogynistic people who want to shut women up. Debate online would be a lot easier if people stopped assuming either that their opponent is evil or that they can mind read what their true intentions are.
@just-so-were-crystal-clear5245 who is debating you? 😅 I don't see an opposing team, a moderator or an agreed upon premise.
@@cindelledniclol. It was a general statement.
@@just-so-were-crystal-clear5245 Way to pay the slightest attention dude. Did you watch the video? Famous men with vocal fry are saying no one has EVER complained to them about it. With women, people do complain. Now perhaps you might say, this is because some people dislike all vocal fry but will not call out men out of fear or whatever - but that doesn't make any sense online - you think people are pulling punches on the internet? no comments on the videos of men with vocal fry, lots of complaints on the ladies' - yeah its probably sexism.
This tend to be sooo fucking common with anything super "feminine" or anything super "black"
As the grandmother of 20 year old gay black man, you hit the nail on the head. It's when the tone or pitch is "borrowed" then discarded that annoys me. Just watch videos of Justin Timberlake over 20 years.
@@Kinypshun The thing about it being "borrowed" is that's kind of an unfair idea since people gain or lose those tones all the time
@@ladywesker5307Agreed. People move down south and develop a slight twang, for example. I'm talking about something totally different. Young people of all colors and stripes in search of an identity tend to borrow and discard. Then there's white people taking on black vernacular when it's convenient then discarding it when they need some white privilege. I'm a 62 year old midwesterner with the worst, almost Canadian accent you've ever heard. The struggle to not be annoyed is real 🤣
Bullshit. Many women have feminine and/or masculine voices that are not vocal fry. Kim Kardashian speaks in vocal fry, which sounds dumb and ugly.
All of the criticisms of women’s voices - too shrill, screechy, too hesitant, too loud, too quiet, too … - are really just telling us to shut up. It’s our ideas, even our sheer presence, that upsets some men. Did you know that if more than 1/ 3 of the people in a crowd scene are women, male viewers say there were more women than men?
I think it's if 1/3 of the crowd is women, they (men) perceive it as equal amounts, and if it's 50/50 women and men, the men (before percentage reveal) perceive themselves as being in the minority
Same thing with speaking in class. When (somewhere between 10 and 30 percent, I don’t recall off the top of my head, but way less than half regardless) of the speaking time and/or number of words was were by female students, the male students thought it was over 50.
Dang... Really telling.
@@Uffda.Was there a negative connotation associated with these bad estimates or was it neutral or positive? People may estimate snakes (alive, fear response) are longer than similar ropes (control). Maybe they'd over or under estimate the amount of meat (control, or maybe hunger arousal) on an animal (alive). Maybe guys, especially college guys in male majority classes, might also overestimate breasts (alive, arousal) compared to water balloons. And maybe one gender in female majority classes overestimates the number of men. Wealth inequality is usually severely underestimated, for example. That kind of flaw in mathematical intuition would indicate that the smaller the minority is, the more it's overestimated.
I know I listed many things which may not have even been studied, you should know there's a big confirmation bias problem in social and psychological studies that only gets worse the more famous it is. That's before we even get to self-fulfilling prophecy behavior patterns.
Only tangentially related, but I noticed a couple of years ago, that in a university class with 2000 students (stuff that lecture hall, get that cash, U of T!) the only people who ever asked questions in lecture were women. The boys would totally dominate in tutorials, but as far as stepping up in a roomful of people? Just the ladies. It was quite striking and I hope a sign of things to come. @@Uffda.
This made me think of why there was a slight annoyance within me too when hearing the obvious vocal fry in women and I realised it's because I subconsciously associate it with the "bimbo" in old media.
As a woman I don't like to throw around the term 'misogyny' a lot because I feel at times it can shut down conversations, but every now and then something like this does make me realise that there are forms of it that we're not even fully aware of.
That we've been subconsciously taught the biases of those who control media/information.
I’ve been looking for a comment like this!
It’s not what I’d typically think of as sexism, it’s an instinctive distaste or annoyance with no logical basis. I’m glad this video brought my attention to it because I want to get rid of that subconscious tendency, and awareness is the first step.
@@the_furf_of_july4652exactly, I wouldnt take this voice seriously even as someone born female and now it makes so much sense how its rooted in misogyny and the male gaze. Deconstructing how our society perceives “womanly” things or behaviors is really important and reveals just how deep misogyny is rooted in our modern society
I feel like the term _misogyny_ can actually open conversations. It only shuts down conversations with those who _are_ misogynistic and fear that word. Kinda like how older people will often be more offended by the word _racism_ than - y'know - actual racism. What I'm saying is you shouldn't be afraid to say the word when you believe it fits
Because of the media, I genuinely thought that it was a fake accent that people made up for the role. (never watched interviews or awards) When I was a kid, I used to question why they made themselves sound like they had a cold. Though I was thinking the same about both men and women with such voices.
There are so many things we need to unlearn. That we never even realized. It's a constanr process, and I don't know if we'll ever stop having to throughout our lives.
Trans guy here. Came out at 45 and experienced a significant voice drop from HRT. I had been in male dominated fields for decades and on coming out I quickly learned I had to tone down... everything. As a woman I had to be loud and frankly pushy to even be heard. Yes, I was called many words (we all know what we call loud women) but that's what I needed to do. Then once I started being perceived as a man, those same tones came out as over the top or even threatening. But here's the thing. As a guy I don't _need_ to be loud. People just listen to me and honestly kind of do what I want and believe what I say without argument.
Women's voices, tone, and presentation are policed to a ridiculous degree and there is no winning. You can be loud and "obnoxious" and heard, or you can be unheard. You can be confident, effective, and a b!tsh or you can be powerless. Almost seems like the system is set up so that women can't win. Hm.
Yea...
@CorwinFound 100%!! XO❤❤❤❤❤
I am AFAB Nonbinary and I find the same thing is true. When people are unsure what my gender is ( I present very fluid) I get perceived as being sort of a trickster. I get seen as authoritative but somewhat unbelievable.
congratulations on your transition! i hope i can get to that point someday,,,
im a 20 year old trans guy and only been on t for about 9 months and im already noticing a significant difference in the way people treat me, beneficial and not. people are a lot more careless with me but they also clear the way for me and listen to me, its crazy. if you are a woman, people see you as subhuman. genuinely.
I'm a neurodivergent person who says "like" a lot. I picked it up in third grade, over thirty years ago, when I was learning to mask to fit in. Sweet Valley High books were hugely popular among my peers and the valley girl trope was everywhere. The popular girls in my class all talked like that, and I picked it up. They outgrew the habit, I assume, but I've never been able to shake it. I've tried everything, but I can't stop. It really irks me when people make assumptions about others due to their speech patterns.
Edited due to typo.
Sometimes I get frustrated when people use "like" too much. But only find it annoying when it is used so frequently it becomes hard for me to parse their sentence.
So more than between phrases and every 2 to 5 words inconsistently can break up a sentence enough for me that I have to take the time to parse. Which is unfortunate because currently the people who do this also talk at a mile a minute😂
Oh, I picked it up from reading books from the 90s. It’s just what I replaced “um” with.
I can see that. You might also have difficulty getting rid of the habit because a lot of neurodiverse people "need" fillers due to how the brain process things. For instance, neurodiverse people often say "what?" when people talk to us, and then answer half-way through the repetition of the sentence. We heard it the first time, but the brain takes a moment to register it, so we've learned to fill the gap with a "what?"
And filler words can be used when we get distracted halfway through our own sentences, or when our brains have raced too far ahead of the words. Filler words cover up the backtracking. Which is what @LC-sc3en mentioned. People who talk a mile a minute usually do so because their brain races ahead, and it gets difficult to say one thing while thinking 5 sentences in the future.
A lot of us use filler words to have time to think, and some do it on purpose because others get uncomfortable with random breaks in the middle of a sentence, or between sentences. It can also be a reaction to struggling with eye contact or reading social ques, because we have to "manually" control our gaze or body language at the same time as we concentrate on a sentence.
So if you learned to mask that way, the habit might still be in place because it's useful to you! I understand that you want to change it, but it might be better to put all that effort into trying to embrace it. Healthier, at any rate!
OP, same, I am also neurodivergent, I read those books too and have a speech pattern that is mildly Valley Girl. I’ve been told by bigoted family members that I “speak like a gay man” (I am bisexual and many of my friends are gay or bisexual) because I use terms like “Queen,” “girl,” “bitch, PLEASE,” and “SO over it.” I also use gamer vernacular like “bro” and “dude” and “owned” which gets me weird looks from guys (because WOMEN don’t play video games! /s). I tend to adopt the speech patterns of the people around me and my vocal pitch changes depending on if I am trying to de-escalate someone and appear submissive or “helpful” (like with customers) or goes lower when my mask drops because they push me too far and I can’t hide my contempt for them.
I also feel like I have to be more careful than men about the words I use when I get angry, or getting angry at all.
It's endured and it's part of your identity now. "Like" is a descriptor that's been studied for it's use and complexity and it's here to stay. Thank you for reminding me about neurodivergence and masking.
As a physically small woman, also 5 Ft tall with a high pitched voice, I tend to easily find the women hating persons. I always asked WHY a TON of people had an issue with me and questioned if I was the problem. Took me years to figure out that: People do not like intelligent women with that physical description using their voice. I will NOT apologize for having a high pitched voice or a small body or for being a woman- I was born this way. YOU, however, CAN change your negative or hateful thinking over something as small as pitch or sound of a voice. Get over yourself and just be kind to other people. It costs you nothing.
Preach!!!
🎉🎉🎉
💪💪💪
I'm copy-pasting that last bit for myself
You may feel this: i went to a punk show, he first band was all women. After the show i heard some dude complaining that they sounded like they were 13. No, they did not. As a former junior high teacher and feminist i was annoyed down to my toes, and he was lucky i didn't jump in and unload on him.
@@jacobus57 So let me get this right. I am the one who has to change the NATURAL way I was biologically born to make other people less hateful instead of people just not being an ASS to other people??? Yeah, I will get right on that. I am not the issue AND thanks for proving my original point. Ya'll I should get paid cookies for my public service in identification skills.
@@jacobus57 Her voice isn't something to be "overcome." If she wants to go through the all stress and diligence needed to change her pitch for the sake of being heard by prejudiced people, that's up to her. You shouldn't be pushing one way or the other.
I am neurodivergent. I have a really deep voice for a woman. I also have an extremely bold, straightforward, call-it-as-it-is, and rather an in-your-face or call-you-out type of personality. I have been in business meetings at restaurants where the music was too loud, and simply turned and asked if the staff could turn it down as it was too loud to hear. I then explained I had a hearing impairment. Everyone was aghast at the thought that I a female would do that. I can't tell you how many times I have seen men do that exact thing and everyone turned and thanked him for solving that issue.
Yea...
Oh my gosh. This is like me, except that “turn off the radio in a setting not my house” was trained out of me.
I have been called on the carpet numerous times for how I look when I talk (I guess my rbf is showing), and my monotone voice and matter of fact speaking.
It’s hard working with people.
Same! Plus my Dad was a Marine & Mom was an Electrical Engineer. My husband's an Engineer too. I have dual degrees in Accountancy & Math. I've always been pretty much the female version of Sheldon Cooper...
No big surprise there, eh?
Same I’ve had this happen to me so many times in similar situations 🙄
Oh yea I totally use the 'soft and pleasant tone' when asking a stranger to do something, like turning down their music, and it's not how I normally speak at all, I'd say the way I talk is 'kinda boyish' or at least that's the way it's perceived.
I confuse people a lot because I speak like an older lady one minute, and then say something like: "bro" a minute later and the tonal whiplash of that makes people question my authenticity.
I'm both, to be honest, I'm a young adult at the end of the day, but my personality is that of a much older, more mature woman, because i am, i might have a baby face and most people assume im a teen, but im in my 20's at the end of the day, childhood was rough and im lot more 'clued up' as they say, then necessarily i look, i like to read too, so I've got a large vocabulary.
Its just funny is all, I can come off all grown up and intelligent, then in the same sentence, say bro, or i swear, and suddenly people find me incredibly confusing, think i might be acting, putting it on, playing it up, or even they might assume im unintelligent and that i don't know what im talking about, but usually i do, especially when i go on impassioned rants on topics i like, I've done the damn research mate dont tell me i dont know when you're only now hearing about this subject.
Like, do you get me? 😅
It's frustrating to say the least.
Hate being told I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm 'talking shit', from people who don't even know the topic that well is just insulting.
Do ever act on this slight?
No. I'm more mature than that.
But does it frustrate me, YES and to use the lady in the vid's words... Totally! 😂
I’m a millennial woman from Southern California, so I was on board with the thesis of this video as soon as I saw the title. And then I clicked, and it just kept getting better. Saving this video so the next time someone tries to police my speech patterns, I don’t have to be the one to try and explain why they’re wrong. Thanks for this.
Are you white?
I always found ever since I was young that when girls/women spoke more directly (loud, clearly, strong pronunciations), people would perceive us as intimidating, know-it-alls or bossy.
I think certain ways of speaking, such as the "baby voice", vocal fry or "question mark tone" might come from that. In order to sound more approachable or less intimidating. That's just from my experiences anyway.
I still experiment with my voice these days and find when I speak softly and in a higher tone, people I encounter are generally friendlier in their responses. If I speak more clearly, confidently and directly, I sometimes get colder or rude responses. I've been asked why I'm angry just by speaking clearly.
Excellent point - and the folks who criticize these intonations would likely be the same people who would get upset if addressed by women in a direct manner.
I KNOW RIGHT?!? Except when i use girl tone no one bleeding listens. 1
Ah fuck, once you said baby voice it clicked. I am hella self conscious about my voice because of that type of criticism of people who sound like me
Yep, I once got called a condescending bitchy know-it-all by a man "informing" me I was spelling my last name wrong and "educating" me on how to spell it right. Yeah, he only had one letter right and the wrong number of letters, but sure, I'm the one being condescending.
Recently I was told after a meeting that I had been yelling. My voice was pitched to be audible to everyone in the fairly large group, but I think I offended that person when I said to a patronizing man who was repeating a lie, “X, you know that’s not true.” and went on to tell the facts.
I ve heard of socialogical study about vocal fry that said :
- In general, people with low-pitch voice would be considered more seriously than people with high-pitch voice
- vocal fry happens naturally when you try to lower your pitch over a certain point
- It is considered positive for men but negative for women
Si basically women trying to sound more serious by the same way men use are instead taken less seriously.
That's exactly my experience. I (female) artificially lowered my voice to be taken seriously, and it worked. But vocal fry does damage the voice in the long run, particularly when you try to be loud, but you aren't using enough air and your throat is too tight. I got laryngitis a few times, and finally went to a voice teacher to rediscover my natural voice. My natural voice is much higher, but now I speak with confidence. It feels so nice to be able to speak for long periods without pain, and be able to project without shouting. People will either take me seriously, or not, but I will live my life and do my thing regardless.
@@KR-ue1gd It's because we subconsciously pick up on attempts to artificially lower your voice. Boys doing this in high school would get made fun of because they were trying too hard. Similarly, if you can actually internalize your "corrected" way of speaking, nobody notices it and it stops reflecting poorly on you (provided it's not to an extreme where people would automatically question how you could possibly come to speak like that "naturally"). Look at the female founder of Theranos, she supplemented her artificially low tone of voice with just enough weird pronunciation and mannerisms to be labeled an oddball. This label then protected her from people picking up on that she was changing her voice to get more credibility. This works because people assume that oddballs can't be deceiving them as they are simply not capable. Elon Musk also does this, it's just that his version isn't a carefully crafted persona, he's just neurodivergent. But again, this oddball behavior seems to allow him a greater degree of trust with the public and early investors, as people assume his skills lie more in technology/invention/business than they do in communication.
@@TPF00T as usual with this stuff: you're right that there's probably a biological factor, but at this point that is no longer the driving force here.. societal/cultural expectations/opinions/pressures are. Humans tend to amplify the [relatively minor] discrepancies between the sexes a hundred times over, to the point that the biological component may as well not exist (from a numbers perspective, that is)
@@idontwantahandlethough I'm not actually making the argument that it is biologically driven. At least not primarily. I agree with what you said about culture taking over. I do want to add, however, that the reason we consider a low voice to be more deserving of respect probably originates from biology, as it reflects total relaxation and therefore an absence of emotions clouding your judgement. Unfortunately, women just can't compete with men when it comes to having a naturally low voice, which is where the culture component comes in. Comparatively, women will almost always sound slightly less authoritative because we are comparing them to men (this is cultural). Also, I've noticed that many women subconsciously have added volume(force) to their voices because it's the only way they are heard. Men have much larger lung capacities and therefore have higher volume at a lower, relaxed register, meaning they don't have to work as hard to be noticed in conversation. So my theory is that many women (especially those that are physically smaller) accidentally lean towards a more stressed, "emotional" tone of voice, which automatically translates to decreased authority and trust. A similar problem occurs when people can tell we are artificially lowering our voices, because it does not sound relaxed or natural, leading to the same outcome. Let me know if you think this is complete horseshit, because I'm not at all educated in linguistics, only psychology.
@TPF00T You make some very interesting, logical points
If something I say sounds uncertain or questioning, it's not because I am uncertain in my words, it's because I am uncertain how men around me will act just because I'm the one saying it.
THIS! Omg this is it! Thank you for putting it into words.
Re upspeak - gets crap coming out of women; gets smiles and chuckles coming out of Australian men.
I do not have vocal fry, but I am a woman who grew up in the south and work in medicine. When I was in school, I started training myself to speak lower and without the accent(think generic reporter) because people did not take me seriously with my normal pitch and accent, despite my male counterparts having the same accent. But I didn't sound "professional" in my normal speech pattern, per reviews. So now I only have a southern accent if I'm tired, really mad, or very comfortable with the person I'm talking to.
God that makes me weep for you!
Yeah, discrimination based on accents is very common sadly.
That's a shame. Southern accents are beautiful. I like to think that stereotype is fading a bit with so many smart smart people from the South having a platform now. Trae Crowder comes to mind, and there's a lady who works for NASA and has a podcast about space, just to think of two.
A supervisor at my last nursing home job had the nerve to vocalize his prejudice that all southern accents equate to stupidity. He said plenty of other things that made me lose respect for him, including misogynistic remarks that he deserved to be reported for.
I hope he some day gets called out big time, because I was forced to leave that place a few years ago when the BS at that facility became too much.
Wow
The ironic thing is that upspeak and vocal fry both came out of misogyny. Women were encouraged to speak with upspeak because in GAE it typically indicates a question, thereby making these women seem less confident. Vocal fry is the lowest pitch register of speech, so women will sometimes use it to artificially lower their voice, which makes the listener subconsciously think that the speaker is more masculine (as men typically have a lower voice), making them view the speaker as more authoritative.
Citation needed.
@@SuperDoNotWant Any good intro Linguistics textbook should mention it.
@@SuperDoNotWant Introducing sociolinguistics, Meyerhoff, (first edition 2006, third edition 2018). Literally the 101 book for the bare basic simplified sociolingistics course for first year students. Or literally any intro book about sociolinguistics.
This phenomenon is not a random unsupported claim, it's a well researched, long known fact.
@@AnnekeOosterink Thanks for providing an actual source! I just learned this a few months ago (though I was aware of the phenomenon already) in LING 101 and my University.
Exactly. So, it is fake. You just said it. Women who are fakely sounding less confident sound like they are calling for help and yet don't want men to fix their problems. Or, they do, but only in a manipulative "I'll sound like this to get what I want." fashion. Women who are fakely sounding more confident are doing the same thing, but while sounding like they are giving orders while still asking for help and that' confusing. A person really sounds like they have authority when they really have authority. Notice, I said person. Women can have authority and a great many have had and do have genuine ability to command a group, a room, a nation, etc. The ones that don't should stop acting as if they do. Same goes for the men
We’re expected to smile, even in our words
What a fantastic addition to the poem that line would be!
damn, that's really clever 🤗
is everyone not?
@@williamkjrgaard4654 why do I get the feeling that you are not, in fact, ignorant of the cultural context surrounding this poem but are instead feigning such to instigate an argument that you won’t learn anything from 🤔
@@tarayarizzo6602 bc having manners is not a bad thing
As an afab trans person on testosterone, I can very much contribute to this conversation in that my lived experience supports this 100%.
I'm still often assumed/ misgendered as a woman because I'm 5'2" and have made no effort to shift my speech patterns, but my voice is now dropped because I'm on testosterone (which I adore.)
But I can very much TELL in a brief conversation with someone whether they're interpreting me as a woman with a deep voice, or a young short man (I usually get teen bc I have very early facial hair) because the way they interact with me is different. It's the most stark with men. If they see me as a teen guy, they are more jovial and buddy-buddy with me, they tend to agree more easily. Their attention holds longer to what I'm saying. I don't get interrupted as much.
Damn
Interesting, I wonder if I'll experience the same once I start passing as more masc (though I'm non-binary so being seen as a boy is still inaccurate.) I have a hard time telling if T has dropped my voice yet because I've ALWAYS developed vocal fry super easily from talking or singing a very normal amount. Probably because of my connective tissue disorder. Luckily I've rarely had anyone comment on it as far as I can remember, aside from my mum and partner saying that it lulls them to sleep sometimes if they're really tired and I'm talking a lot
@@Alex-fc8xn im also non-binary masc, so yeah it sucks that we're basically always misgendered in some way.
but it's so complicated how (at least in my case) American society genders speech because its not only pitch and quality but speech patterns and body language etc. which can be helpful tools for people whose goal is to pass as one of the binary genders. but for those of us who aren't aiming for that, it can kind of hem us in and keep us from being fully seen as ourselves by a broader society.
for me personally, being seen as a boy is still wrong but slightly more comfortable than a girl, but still not correct. But when im away from all that, around accepting friends and loved ones, or just by myself, goddamn I love being on T because my body feels more correct for me, my voice feels like mine now. i feel at peace. it's the rest of the world that is confused and tangled up.
basically I just want to send you solidarity and love and all the well-wishes from a fellow nonbinary person!
wow, that's super interesting!
@@Alex-fc8xn probably kinda hard to tell because you're.... you. Like how your aunt can tell that you've grown 6 inches since the last time she saw you, but you don't seem any taller in the mirror because you were there for the in-between parts
I have significant vocal fry. I was asked to record some tech demos at work. It took me hours to record them, many many many takes. And then live on a webinar where they were being played, a woman messaged the webinar host and said "The voice fry is too horrible, I can't stand it. I'm leaving."
Made me feel like absolute shit and I didn't think about anything else for the rest of the day.
@@jacobus57 Okay and who asked you? Piss off.
That woman was such en impolite person. If she wanted to leave - fine . However, she should have acknowledged the effort that you, as a presenter, put into your work. Don't let that one person ruin your day. Other members of the audience appreciated it!
I'm so sorry! That's aweful!
I think audio recordings make it sound even stronger than it is in real life.
I'm so sorry. That's just mean.
I (middle-aged female) have a 'natural' vocal fry and haven't ever experienced someone telling me anything about it except online. I used to have to do a lot of public speaking and presenting and as long as I projected and sounded confident, I was taken seriously regardless of the fry. When I had nerves or stage fright I would get polite condescension. It's such a complicated topic. Makes me glad I got my degrees in Biology - animals don't care about any of that, they just want you to shut up mostly 😂.
What I do find annoying is when someone “puts on” vocal fry. It’s usually in combination with other vocal mannerisms that are also “put on”. Male or female, they both annoy. Natural vocal fry isn’t annoying to me. You can usually tell the difference.
I expressed the same sentiment and I've been crucified on this thread for two days. 😆
@@Kinypshun Oh wow, that’s not right! It’s an opinion, right? For me, it’s all about being genuine. To believe that we are loveable as our true selves. Sometimes it means being brave enough to take off the masks or pretenses that we use to fit in. If someone genuinely has a natural vocal fry ~ ok! I guess it’s on me if I’m annoyed by disingenuousness. But I definitely am!
Nicely put; I can try to be okay with a natural voice, but, like you, put-on stuff just irks.
I also experience this with my disability. I'm dyslexic and I have had so many men (always men) say that my onions are invalid because I miss-spelled a word. So we also have to have perfect spelling and grammar when we write. It's almost as if men will find ANY reason to ignore what a women says.
I would hate to have anyone invalidate my onions.
Stay strong.👍
Yes! I'm so glad you did a video on this. My vocal fry isn't too noticeable unless I'm exhausted or super comfortable, and it's probably because I've been societally conditioned to not talk like that in public. But the amount of times I've seen it pointed out ONLY in women is 100% of the times I've heard vocal fry talked about in a critical way. When spoken about in an educational way or in vocal performance way, it mentions how both sexes of people use it, and it's never spoken on derogatorally there. That's not surprising though, sexism is rampant but thoroughly ignored.
The policing of filler words like "like" and "um" in sentences is another big one I've seen and heard, as you mentioned. This may be TMI to some, but I don't care: I've been considering ditching bras lately because they're so uncomfortable. The underwire cuts and pokes into skin and even the ones without underwire constrain the wearer. Don't get me started on how sweaty they make your boobs get, ESPECIALLY in summer. I've been societally conditioned and policed into feeling that I can't go bra-less because once women show their nipples even the slightest bit through their shirt, men start looking at us like objects or acting disgusted while their nipples hang out freely with or without a shirt, forever without repercussions. Like can we stop making women go through the most to just exist? UGH, I'm so fed up.
Thank you for amplifying and sharing Melissa's voice, and thank you, professor. 🧡
I only generally wear bras at work, but a) I'm nonbinary and b) I have small bewbs. So YMMV.
...it does mean if I need to improvise a tourniquet, I might wind up uncovered after I sacrifice my t shirt.
The "like" police are declining in numbers. I can't recall the source, but the reasons for "like" added to a description has a specific meaning, and "like" is becoming a permanent part of American dialects.
I’m giving you a mental standing ovation right now, @ThePsychicClarinetist 👍🏻❤️🙌🏻
It sounded like you needed to vent. I hope you have a good day.❤
@@jacobus57no, it actually doesn't.
I put forth that anyone who says you're not going to be seen as credible because you're not as direct and straight forwards as Hemingway has never *actually* read Hemingway.
“That night at the hotel, in our room with the long empty hall outside and our shoes outside the door, a thick carpet on the floor of the room, outside the windows the rain falling and in the room light and pleasant and cheerful, then the light out and it exciting with smooth sheets and the bed comfortable, feeling that we had come home, feeling no longer alone, waking in the night to find the other one there, and not gone away; all other things were unreal." ~ Hemingway, A Farewell To Arms.
I think they're talking about his personal life where he routinely threw temper tantrums etc to get what he wanted...
Lol. Hemingway wrote like old people make love. Slowly, and often without getting to the point.
His rambling stream of consciousness conveys, how can I say it, an ineffable better-ness.
Oh, wow, I am so glad I never had to read any of his books for school (Homeschooled), I stoped reading half way through becuase I stopped understanding, heck, i even forgot what i had read before, and I have a 30 test act reading comperhansion score.
@@hurpdurp123 idk. I wasn't home schooled and I never had to read Hemingway but I get your point.
That poem at the end had me in tears. “Maybe my ums and likes are defense mechanisms” damn. We make ourselves so small to stay out of the line of fire.
That piece was absolutely incredible and jawdropping! Thank you for going out of your way to make sure you can share that with us!
Literally, only thing that annoys me about hearing vocal fry or uptalk or ANYTHING - is when it’s in a scripted show, but it was CLEARLY written by a DUDE, in order to make the female character speaking look stupid (like the clip at the very beginning).
Don’t get me wrong - the Valley Girl is a character trope that is effective… but don’t write it if you’re not a woman. I don’t write AAVE accents on characters who are black, because I’m not black and I understand there’s baggage and context that I don’t intimately understand.
Dudes, stop writing “annoying” women characters, when you are just an annoying man, who will never get the scrutiny of being called “shrill” or “shrewish”
Honestly why I love the Madisynn character in She Hulk so much. She reminded me that a drunk party girl can be not only a fun character, but straight up noble, competent, and kind. She got portaled to hell and came out still buzzed and undaunted. Revolutionary ^_^
I'm curious, what exactly is the "valley girl" trope being used for generally?
I know the type of woman it's referring to, but I also know it's mostly just a regional thing in reality.
I need to screenshot this comment
maybe instead of nerfing valley girls we could write more annoying male characters to balance it out
I always liked the character Tish in SpaceCamp, in part because she plays against the Valley Girl stereotype.
What they find annoying about vocal fry is that the woman is expressing what SHE prefers or feels natural instead of performing femininity for the benefit of the male gaze. I don't think most men understand how many layers of misogyny are in these gendered "corrections" they offer. What they are saying is that THEIR preference matters (because he's a man, after all) and the woman's preference is so irrelevant, so dismissed as nonexistent or unimportant that he never considers she might do any gd thing for her own reasons and not to seek his approval. He is demonstrating his belief that he has dominion over women and is free to demand that any random woman perform according to his whim. If he will show that to a complete stranger, can you imagine how that plays out behind closed doors? It's not that they dislike something about a woman, it's that they feel inclined to voice their unsolicited opinions to women and expect the woman to do what he says as if he is above her, ignoring that she's fully autonomous human being. It's creepy, terrifying and enragijg all at the same time.
As a woman: No it's just fucking annoying. Nothing worse than listening to intelligent sitting around talking like they're eyeball deep in barbituates.
Yup. I see that all the time here where I'm told I should smile more! Because apparently they need thier world decorated with smiles and we're there to perform it for them!
Well said!
Great point! This is exactly it
@mellie4174 I was thinking thesame thing. SMILE! said by a stranger as I was walking my car. Weird.
I’ve been told - in a work environment - that I used “I” too much. As in, I wrote this procedure. I designed this process. I lead this training.
But the men that said they were my leaders and supporters and mentors and coaches felt threatened because I didn’t give them credit for the fact that I was in the room to do those things.
This resonates with me. I'll give my boss credit for pulling me aside and telling me to stop prefacing all my ideas with "this may not work, but" and "I was thinking" or straight up apologizing, instead just a straightforward sentence.
As a man, I always try to use "we" as much as possible and my male and female colleagues too. Stop playing the victim all the time. You just sound like a selfish entitled person.
@@romit001This. There's a reason why men are better leaders. And you just showed a perfect example. You make the whole team feel like they accomplished something. Which in turn motivates them to work harder. The op above is an attention and credit hog. I guarantee you her team are barely motivated to get out of bed.
@@smithsmith1956 dont go spouting misogynistic ideas of gender innateness just because using "we" is a genuinely good idea.
@@ayceinquisitor190Studies prove it. And observation of the world around you does too. Acknowledging reality and patterns isn't "mUh MiSoGYnY".
"Experts use data to substantiate the biological and psychological distinctions between men and women. Generalizing differences found in studies is a common practice in many fields of research. Generalizing findings allows researchers to identify trends and patterns across a population or groups. By examining a large sample, scientists can gain a better understanding of the overall characteristics or behaviors being studied."
Thank you, yet again, Prof. I've never understood the belief that the way something is said is more important than the meaning of what is said. Whether that's tone, accent, pitch, pause, vocal fry, even word choice or emotional accentuation or grammar. None of it matters nearly as much as the meaning that is trying to be communicated.
To ignore what somebody's trying to say, their meaning, because of the way they're saying it, points to simply not caring about what they're trying to say in the first place.
You speak wisdom, and you stand up for people who won't be heard as well. Thank you!
the poem at the end made me incredibly emotional and I wasn't expecting it, I had to pause and truly LISTEN. and it hurt in the way things need to hurt
She just sounds insufferable to be around. If she talked like this around me, I'd walk right out the door through which I'd initially arrived.
The Speech Prof said "RaWr🐯" and I didn't know I needed to hear that until today
For real! I couldn't help but smile the instant he did that
Can someone make it a sound bite so I can use it for a notification?
rawr XD
Linguist here. You have it completely right. Thanks for calling out prejudice.
❤❤❤❤
Poorly aged white ♀️
@@vklnew9824 who hurt u?
@@vklnew9824 I know you're trying to be mean for no reason. But your comment is weird and doesn't make sense.
Kim Kardashian's vocal fry sounds idiotic and ugly. It does not take a PhD in linguistics to point out this truth. Vocal fry is ugly and annoying. A speech therapist or acting teacher can help you learn to speak with a healthy professional voice without any ugly vocal fry.
Wow! That poetry piece was wonderfully powerful. Thanks for sharing that.
I say this as a mother, a mother of a powerful and growing young woman, and as a former teacher…and an uptight grammarian from infancy❤
Yep. I work retail and if I use a straight forward unsmiling but professional tone a lot of people don't like it or perceive it as unfriendly or rude. I have to be smiley and bubbly and sweet and I can do that most of the time but sometimes I'm tired, or rushing, or hungry, or repeating myself for the third time and I don't want to make the extra effort. What's funny is there is that other set of people like you said who are annoyed by the friendly, girly tone so you're not going to win either way.
As a customer I expect polite and informative but I don't need a performance. If someone is sociable I appreciate but it's not required to do a good job.
Yes yes yes! In retail sales too. And as a muddle aged woman, when I match someone's energy - the way they're speaking to me (especially men) - I've been told I'm rude and snippy. But female sales people are supposed to plaster a smile on their face and be stupidly superficial and never EVER have a bad day, act sick, or be stressed or anxious
@@slbarbieri1725I know it was a typo, but I'm going to start referring to myself as a muddle aged woman from now on. Some typos end up being awesome! Also, I agree, women are always expected to perform happiness so much more than men.
I personally like when both women and men are friendly but genuine, so they don't go over the top, but I understand that retail workers have bad days too so I wouldn't get offended if they seemed quieter. I'd prefer that over the too friendly tone and forced smiles.
@@mirandarensberger6919 lol, maybe it wasn't such a typo after all! 😆
Yo and I recently learned that Islam, a woman smiling at man is forbidden within the religion because it is "an invitation". Meanwhile in the West it's how women are socialised - particularly in a profession like retail, sometimes being told by men to smile. I hate it and envy men who feel empowered and socially rewarded by demonstrating personality trait disagreeableness..
To go off of this topic as well--society tends to HATE anything young women crowd around and love. If you ask WHY they hate it MOST [not all] will just give a trendy answer or say "cause its trash quality" but cannot give details as they do not really know why. It is almost like they are programmed by society or something to hate without understanding. I.E.: Young adult novels/shows/movies. Teen magazines. Certain music genres aka Boy Bands/Pop Bands. Whatever or WHOever the latest trend in pop culture is aka certain actors. The OUTSTANDING amount of people who HATED Zac Efron as he was growing up popular with the young women. You name it. If young women of today are into it = there is a LARGE, and for unknown reasons why, crowd of people that when asked "just hate it."
Sidenote: your pfp with the cool creatures and flags is, well, cool :)
Yes. See also: Frank Sinatra, The Beatles, and Taylor Swift.
@@undefinederror40404 Thank You!
Girls "must" love pink but those who actually do embrace that kind of femininity encounter same kind of attack. Even if it's something "prescribed" to girls, they'll immediately get attacked if they actually like it as a crowd. Unpopular opinion, but I think it's the same for that "not like others girls" trope itself, it only was good until girls started embracing their individuality and strength. Then being not like others suddenly became cringe, when girl started liking it. Is it really THAT bad to be proud that you read more than some people? Or play shutters better while this area is so male dominant, and it is actually kind of an achievement, and other girls actually don't have it, so it's just true and your small victory? Is it so bad to compare yourself with those, who are most similar to you, to show your progress, and not to people for whom it was easier? Was it actually for guys' attention that much? These proud girls at least partially was attacked just for daring to say that they better than anyone at all, how could they. We now embrace solidarity and that we all different in our unique ways, but is it really so bad to admit that you not just unique but actual better at some specific things? I can imagine guys friendly mocking eachother for stuff they're kinda bad at and flex with something they're good at, and it's perceived as normal communication, and I think it really is. But a girl would often be labeled as toxic if she was like that with her girl friends. Because now we discovered that girls do like to be proud and highlight their strengths and compare. You still only can be proud with "oh excuse me, you all of course as good as me, I'm of course not better, I'm just simple small me with my small achievements, don't mind me, how could I say that I'm better than somebody, how could I be competitive to any extent at all". While in male friendships some degree of competition is normal and I think it's normal for humans in general. When you're a small girl you'll flex with anything you can on other children, because it feels good, and normal response from other children is to flex back with what they have to show. Boys keep doing that growing up, but we're taught that this is a bad thing.
Justin Bieber
As a woman from the San Fernando Valley (so I have a “valley girl” accent), thank you for this video. 99.9% of men hate us 😞
Woman with natural vocal fry here. My response is "Bite me". One its a style of speech in Southern California. A lower register is also sometimes the only way some coworkers or people on the phone finally listened to me. Because it somehow contained more gravitas...😖
I think part of it also has to do with american media often using vocal fry as trope coding for "vain/arrogant/flighty/otherwise bad person." Someone not to be emulated. So when we hear it, we might think reflexively that either the person is one of those bad things, or emulating a bad person and thus unworthy of consideration. That's what i see on display in that clip you first linked! The man assumes that the woman is performatively talking that way.
It reminds me of how people with Southern/rural accents are often stereotyped as stupid and how people make fun of them by talking much slower than normal (in a condescending way).
@@angygremlin4423 why is it only women though?
The southern thing is very true, but it's for everyone.
The vocal fry discrimination seems to exclusive target women 🤔
@@angygremlin4423 But -- having known a few -- the stereotype is TRUE.
@@wmdkitty Having known quite a few, it's actually not. It's just classism used to justify keeping certain voices out of power. If you have the resources to completely change the way you talk you can be heard, but if you have too many other things on your plate (due to systemic oppression usually) then you're just "a dumb southerner", eh?
The point is that the trope was designed to justify hating on women. Maybe not "I sat down to write hate about women", but also not NOT that enough to come up with something better. Attacking a girl in the service industry about how she talks, while she's on the clock and ACTIVELY SERVING YOU & THE LINE BEHIND YOU is not appropriate for any adult to be doing,let alone one who thinks themselves fine enough to lecture others on their *perfectly fine* grasp of English.
Filler words are super important part of speech, they give both parties a chance to process, for the listener what's been said and the talker what comes next. I can be exhausting to listen to someone who doesn't use them.
"You know" has a social purpose, you are checking in on your conversation partner, that they are still listening/ are interested/ understand what you are saying.
99% Invisible did a good episode on this but i can't find it as their naming convention isn't the best. It might be in one of the recent Mini-stories (17/18)
Also necessary for the neurodivergent among us.
Well-stated.
Many languages have filler terms and social cues to confirm all parties in a conversation are on equal footing. It's just being pointed out more-by those of us being made more aware-that much of the spite is coming from certain language ideologies (that one could argue are rather outdated, at best).
Exactly
"Like" carries meaning as well. I use it to signify, "I'm not speaking completely literally right now, but I'm still making a point." As in:
"You're almost out of those widgets, aren't you?"
"No, we have, like, 27 of them." Meaning, I haven't actually counted them, but I know we have plenty.
Wow this brought up so much for me that I had never realized. I remember so clearly being scolded by my father as a tween for using "like". I remeber being told that i wasn't going to be invited to my boyfriend's sister's wedding at 18 because the groom didn't like my voice. I remember forcing myself to speak more directly and learning to practice sentences in my head beforehand and not speak until I knew exactly what I was going to say so that those filler words, that I had developed as a way to prevent myself from being cut off, wouldn't be necessary. I remember speaking out loud to myself trying and failing to understand what would be so undesirable about my voice.
And now, I find myself asking questions too directly, too pointedly so that my husband feels attacked and gets defensive when I ask him anything. But would he react that way if a man were asking him things in this way? I find myself apologizing for my voice when I'm sick because I'm aware of how undesirable the nasaly creaky tone I have is.
Thank you!! 😭 Also, this has less to do with women, specifically-but it came to mind when you mentioned the bit about so many men claiming to feel threatened not just by the use of vocal fry, but also everything else about the sound of women's voices in terms of cadence, pitch, etc.
Professional jazz bassist and CZcamsr Adam McNeely made a very illuminating video in the recent past on the roots of misogyny and racism in classical Western European music theory. I'm not doing a synopsis justice in this tiny comment, but basically, it breaks down, yknow, like, why we think of men like Bach and Beethoven (and so many other 17th/18th century classical western European composers) as musical "geniuses," and why THAT is the scale and rubric by which modern music majors in America and Western Europe are judged and measured. So it was fascinating to watch your video and to consider- from an even wider angle-the history of "what white men find pleasing to the senses," and how deeply that very notion has been engrained into the culture and education of society.
My Grandma spoke just like this and she was born in the 1920’s, the vocal fry and “like like you know”. So very familiar to me, and she was raised in Northern Saskatchewan with her other eight siblings. With an English Governess for a Mom and an American Cowboy for a Dad. It’s wild how speech patterns come and go. Linguistics is fascinating.
I have a hell ton of vocal fry in the morning and throughout the day. It's wild how many people bash women's voices
It's a bit more complex than bashing voices and your voice is yours. It's important not to conflate someone who naturally speaks a certain way and someone who co-opts a growl from its ubiquitous presence on social media, when they didnt speak that way a few years ago. When it's discarded after it's no longer popular and a new trend catches on, a person is most likely struggling for an identity. It's been going on for years. I find it annoying, but it doesn't mean that I don't have endless tolerance for these women who are still forming their identity, even though it's not helping our struggle.
The way people tend to give less attention or credence to anyone with a noticeable degree of femininity is more and more obvious to me the more I try to interact with people online. It often feels like no one wants to pay any mind to anything I have to say until it provides them with an opportunity to disagree or lash out. It's tiring to feel like everybody sees you as nothing more than a nuisance and a target.
Speech prof, this was an amazing video. Thanks so much for breaking this down and explaining so concisely, I find speech and language really fascinating... Just talked about this with my husband today!
Wow that poem at the end, I can see why she is one of your favorite poets.
It’s funny how I never hear anyone criticizing Matthew McConaughey for vocal fry…
Of course not.
@@foolishlyfoolhardy6004 yes, it is one of the go to comedy impressions…but there is not any mention about how annoying his vocal fry is…not at all.
That is the difference. One does not hear people saying, “Matthew McConaughey needs to stop with the vocal fry. It makes him sound fake and stupid.” It’s not said, because people don’t think that about men with vocal fry.
@@foolishlyfoolhardy6004 until that is a prevailing opinion repeated by people who actually have a platform to be heard, this remains a sexist topic, attacking only women who speak with vocal fry.
Sadly, your personal opinion expressed to me in a CZcams comments section does not change publicly heard discourse on this topic. (I don’t find Matthew McConaughey’s manner of speaking anywhere NEAR as annoying as the things he says. It is the same with Kim Kardashian.)
@@foolishlyfoolhardy6004 you are not interested enough in this topic to listen, obviously.
If you want to know more, do a cursory search with the search term, “male celebrities criticized for vocal fry.”
I used this on Safari and, just looking at the results, not clicking on any article, I found the names, Lake Bell, Kim Kardashian, and Britney Spears. All women.
There were no men’s names visible on the search page.
The top article, entitled, “Vocal fry: exploring the controversial stereotypes…” used, “The sound of a woman speaking with vocal fry immediately invites prejudice.” as its opening sentence.
There is nothing more I have to say to you on this topic. Good luck.
I love his voice! 🥺 I think it's just awful in general to vocally hate say you hate someone's voice, especially to their face. Growing up I hated my voice, then I grew out of hating it and learned that people who mocked me just wanted to silence me. I have misophonia, and therefore a legitimate reason to hate certain voices because of how they pronounce certain letters. And yet I'd never tell them to their face that I hate their voice. It costs zero dollars to not be an asshole.
I love that you referenced Melissa Lozada-Oliva. I loved her poetry and listened to it all the time when I was a kid because her poems spoke to me in a way that nothing else ever had up until that point.
That poem and performance was amazing! Thank you for sharing the clip.
I know you’re literally called the Speech Prof, but it still catches me a little off guard when that stuff comes up in the content you’re responding to, and you’re like **cracks knuckles** “my time has come.” It’s great!
Your title alone is validating. I’ve gradually resorted to writing as my strength in communication because I, myself, expect to be taken less seriously vocally. However now, I don’t think of it as a flaw, I just use it as a social strength to observe more and allow those around me to underestimate. Being perceived as less-than or unworthy is pretty damn powerful, imo.
THANK YOU!! I’ve been trying to say this for as long as I can remember 😭
So much truth in this video...awareness comes first, I guess. Thanks for putting this out there. And what an amazingly powerful poem. I will have to check Melissa Lozada-Oliva out!
Yes to this. As a speech therapist I do have to add that from what I learned, vocal fry is typically not great for your vocal folds long term (this was only ever discussed regarding people talking outside of their natural pitch). Forcing vocal fry can increase your chances of basically an overuse injury. Typically, vocal folds move in a smooth wave. With vocal fry they hit harder and are more chaotic.
This makes me think of Britney Spears and how she was forced to sing in a register unnatural to her for that baby breathy voice.
Except that a lot of people just for it naturally it's just how they were born speaking...
@@mellie4174 thanks for sharing!
@@mellie4174that’s why they added in parentheses that the context was only in people talking outside their natural pitch, i.e. actively changing their voice and the way they naturally speak.
I've always developed vocal fry very quickly if I talk too much, sleep poorly, or sing more than like one or two songs 😅 it's probably because of my collagen disorder (hEDS) but I'm curious if you know why a person might be more prone to losing their voice and developing vocal fry even from a young age? I lose like half my register from singing for even 10 minutes and trying to read a story out loud will have me lose my voice SO quick if I don't sip water a few times a minute (and even then, 20 minutes is probably my max, after which I can mainly just speak softly and have to clear my throat a lot.) I doubt it's related, but I wasn't able to breathe through my nose from ages 6-12 due to enlarged adenoids that had to be removed, so could the fact that I breathe through my mouth for the most part contribute? It caused snoring and sleep apnea until I had them removed and I imagine snoring isn't good for vocal chords
Wow, that poem is amazing
Amazing video, from a social/sociological perspective, college/linguistics perspective, and then that poetry slam at the end? The absolute cherry on top. *Chef's kiss*
Oh gosh this is incredible!!! That poetry was like...ohhhh my gosh I can get over how brilliant this was. We need more of this
My goddaughter teaches self-defense to women. Her first lesson is to teach them to stop ending every sentence with a question mark. Such as, "Please don't hurt me?" Or "Stop?" Or, worst of all, "No?"
Yes! Ever since a Wayward podcast episode where they talked about how often women apologize or try to defuse a situation, I've been working on not saying sorry as often. And in that I've discovered I also tend to apologize or give a explanation for things that don't really need it. So trying to pause before when I feel like I'm going to do that and go did I do something I need to apologize for or is someone actively seeking an explanation for something or is it just a feeling that this is an unspoken expectation of me and honestly no one is expecting it of me, I've just been raised to believe that. I'm sure there are more things I'm not aware of too, but working on the ones I know about now.
@@Quirkyalonesterme too, all of what you said.
How 'bout we stop teaching young women that how they talk--or dress or act or exist, FFS--is why they're attacked and start teaching young men that women aren't theirs to attack? Telling a young women to avoid uptalk as "self defense" is victim blaming. Stop teaching women how to avoid men attacking them and start teaching men not to attack women, m'kay?
@@pjaypender1009 You think men aren't taught that? Here's the problem: Not all men do as they're taught. As a result of this, it's important for women to know these things.
Look, every time you cross the street you got hit by a car. Is it "victim blaming" to tell you to look both ways before you cross the street? No. That's just good advice. The same applies here. Women should be taught all this stuff not because they are at fault, but because they need to know it should they ever need it.
@@pjaypender1009yes! ❤❤
When I was a young pedantic autist (I'm just an autist now) I had personal beef with filler words like "like" and I would feel most angry when women said it. I don't know why. Turns out part of it was a lack of maturity. A lot of people who cause problems do so out of a lack of maturity. I think these videos help for those who are willing to listen, though that isn't a large part of them, so please keep on trucking prof
* waves in autistic, today less pedantic, solidarity *
Also, please don't listen to Jackie, too many of their comments come across as telling other people how we should live our lives, i.e. as ignorance and arrogance combined.
Thank you for saying this. Idk if youre a man, woman, or someone in between or other than, but regardless of the gender of the person who experiences this, the phenomenon is often caused by internalized misogyny, and that comes from not staying or growing to be self aware; aka maturing into a well rounded person who understands and accepts the shades of nuance in life.
Thank you for not only acknowledging you had a problem, but sharing how you chose to grow to be a healthier and more humble and accepting human. Also, hello to a fellow formerly overly pedantic autist. I have my moments still. But i do my best every day to not die on hills just because i believe I'm correct.
Some of the best advice my mom ever gave me was "would you rather be right, or would you rather be happy? Because sometimes to be happy we have to acquiesce that being right isnt always the most important thing, and sometimes harping on our rightness moves us to being in the wrong morally, even if we remain objectively correct on what we are insisting." I'm paraphrasing a bit because she said something slightly different every time, so what i wrote is a bit of an alamgamation of all the different times she said it lol.
She struggles to internalize it herself ofc, but thats another story lol. Its really good advice and I wish I'd been able to internalize it sooner. But I'm internalizing it now and thats the important part. Who i used to be isnt who i am.
Have a great day. And know this stranger appreciates your efforts to not perpetuate unconscious bias or bigotry. Sometimes i feel I'm fighting an uphill battle no one else cares about. Then I meet someone like you who cares how their actions impact others enough to do the work to change their thought pattern and and work to be better too, and it restores my drive to keep working toward my self betterment goals.
Thank you again, and have the best day.💞🎉
hell yeah. In my opinion, the most mature thing one can do is admit that they've been immature about something and then work to change it :)
(i mean when you think about it, the most immature adults are those who absolutely INSIST that they're super totally mature and have it allllll figured out... despite that being blatantly untrue)
Wow! Girl gave me chills! I had that laugh with tears response. So true that I’m uncomfortable and I have to laugh because it’s absurd that this is happening, STILL!
Thank you for sharing! Also being a real empathetic person to what people not just like you are dealing with! We love that!
I can hear it in your short bit at the beginning. Thank you for bringing it up. Never thought about it before.
When you mentioned how certain accents are favorable over others and people get rid of accents as soon as they can for a more desirable accent John Barrowman is a good example of that. He dropped his Scottish accent as fast as he could when he moved to America when his Scottish accent was mocked by classmates. It's why my own Scottish mother stopped speaking because she was either treated like a dancing monkey or people would pretend like they didn't understand her and as someone who has that Mid-Atlantic accent and has an ear for both Scottish and American English, she was perfectly understandable. She really refined her accent.
I totally understand that accent thing too. I grew up in California, but with a very southern family. Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, and Tennessee. It did not take long for me to cover up my natural southern accent that I had picked up from my family. The teasing was just too bad. I mean, I didn't talk a lot to begin with, and had plenty of other reasons to get teased. A lot of those reasons could not be so easily changed, so that accent was kicked to the curb pretty quick in kindergarten and first grade.
I definitely got rid of mine when I left Mississippi. People will straight up disrespect and look down on me when I use my true voice. I speak English completely different when I’m not with my family.
In my country, we also have multiple diallects/accents. My parents are from a place that has a more favourable accent. I was born dab smack in the middle of farmer county, but took on my parents accent. My brothers took the local accent. Believe it or not, people would always mock me for my accent, even tho' I couldn't help it. I just moved places, because among other things, I didn't want to deal with that anymore. Now I live in a place where so many different people live, nobody bats an eye to any kind of accent.
@@jbach1738 I am so sorry to hear that. I used to get a lot of "where do you think you're from" and "why are you pretending to be British" comments remarks. It's like this is how I talk and I felt so bad for my mother who just stopped talking to people for a while because they would ask her to speak Scottish like it's a party trick. The ones that pretended not to understand her were the worst. That's very crappy behavior and I am sorry you went through the bullying for things that were just inherent about you.
@@legslikewhoa That's awful, I had a teacher who had a deep southern accent and the students would not let her get a word out before they would laugh at her. It's almost like we live in a country where people are so ignorant about the fact that we have regional accents. That something that is not relevant to the character and the value an individual brings can make others so angry and just mean surprises me. It shouldn't, but it does.
I don't get it. What's annoying? It's just how some people talk.
It’s even a deliberate singing technique when you want to donit
Bless you. It shouldn't be annoying, but some loud mouths say that it is.
Right?!
I’ve never understood the type of person who gets “annoyed” by things like this. Truly baffling.
@@sullivanle I'll admit a had a former work friend who had a laugh that was a bit jarring at first. But, after some time it wasn't a problem. So I can understand needing to adjust. But, to comment, mock, or ridicule is unacceptable.
the poem at the end was so cathartic to listen to... i have tears in my eyes
It's not vocal fry I think they're criticizing the valley/volley girl accent
Ppl hv been criticizing my vocal range lately the fact that i can go high pitch or deep pitch
Wow ty for educating us! 💖🌟
Speaking as a woman 'of a certain age' I can attest this is not exclusively a young woman's experience. I've been dismissed or ignored (by family, in professional settings, and in the world in general) when I speak for most of my 57 years. The older I get the more I seem to disappear.
But don't become exasperated with being ignored and decide to inject a little steel into your delivery as a woman of a certain age, 'cause then somebody will call you a Karen.
We just keep getting all these unexpected bonus spins in this lousy game that never seems to end 😂
Truth! 🙃@@banksofchaos93
@@banksofchaos93 *I WANT TO GET OFF MR. BONE'S WILD RIDE*
(did everyone else interpret that ol' story as a metaphor for life, or is it just me..?)
Yes that’s menopause for you.
Maybe you're just boring?
Thank you for sharing the clip of that talented young woman!
Wow. Her performance was literally spine tingling, my hairs were standing on ends. Electrifying!
I also love to swear, and I self censor like 98% of the time. I would love for that to be different.
Super great post!
I am so very glad I got to hear that poetry. Thank you for caring & sharing 🫶
Thank you for posting this. I got teased relentlessly for my accent when I moved, my male family members didn't. I regret that I worked to lose my accent, it was a little part of me I won't really get back.
There are certain pitches of voice that I have sensory issues with, as in they will physically give me a headache if I am around them too long. However, this is a me problem, and it can be overcome through either temporarily removing myself from the situation, or focusing on something other than tonal cues, such as body language.
I have that. I cannot listen to people like Fran Dresher, Jason Alexander, or Alex Macqueen.
Vocal fry hits my misophonia in a bad way - some of us truly don’t like it for reasons unrelated to our or anyone else’s gender! So we bear it when we have to and avoid it when we can. 🤷♀️
@@amyholland6924This!
I also feel most affected when it is 'performed' eg. Paris Hilton. Her 'natural' tone doesn't 'stress' me the way her performed tone does.
But, yes, certain pitches, intonations, can cause me as much distress as certain machine noises, apparently the FMS affects my oversensitivity as well 🤷🏻♀️
Yes! There are certain tones of voice that I just can't deal with.
Joining this club!
In my experience, vocal fry isn't annnoying when it's natural. It's annoying when it's forced. A lot of people who use fry have been heard using their natural voice for days or years then suddenly they have vocal fry. It just so happens that it's normally women who use vocal fry. Because Kim Kardashian does.
Never heard of Melissa, but that little section alone made me go and buy her book. It'll be here in six days, can't wait!
I think the fact that it also requires lowering your pitch is why it stands out more higher-pitched speakers. Maybe adding that growl/creak gives it a texture most often associated with male voices, which is why it doesn't stand out as much in lower voices. It also indicates a level of relaxation that we perhaps don't want women to have if we expect them to be cheerful and attentive. Also, men must use filler words approximately as often as women, so that's one definitely just a purely social judgment.
Like as a filler word really emerged in the 90's, so that one also has strong elements of "get off my lawn" older people being mad at young people's speech patterns. If you're under 40, chances are "like" is one of your default filler words.
@@cbpd89I’m 44, and “like” is one of my filler words. I don’t think I overuse it, though. There’s lots of other filler sounds and words, and I forget words so often that a long “uhhhhh” is the most common.
I associate vocal fry with exhaustion or stress rather than relaxation. When I talk like that, it’s usually because I’m upset, stressed, or very tired.
@@evilsharkey8954 That's a good point, and I think a feeling tiredness or low tolerance is also in line with my statement about expectations. There's an implicit cultural expectation for women to have the energy to accommodate others.
You're spot on, and that poem was amazing, eye-opening, and deeply moving, thank you for sharing... it never fully dawned on me that so much filler speech and uptalk and all comes down to an effort to pre-empt criticism, whether conscious or otherwise, despite often having the exact opposite effect. No wonder it's mostly women who speak like that.
I love "Like Totally Whatever". Glad you stitched it into this discussion. Love your stuff!
I had a principal observe my class and his ONLY comment about my class was my voice was too high pitched. That was it. I was just like...okay...🤷🏻♀️
I saw that first clip and a bunch of men in the comments agreeing with it, and I got so confused. Especially when she raises her voice at him later in the scene and he says “that’s your real voice!!!” when I couldn’t discern a difference because it’s all her voice?? It might also be because a lot of the women I base my vocal training off of have vocal fry and those other speech patterns so I don’t process them as anything but a part of their voice.
I read Taylor Mali's original poem "Totally Like Whatever" as a teen and loved it. Still love his work. But this rebuttal poem from Melissa Lozado-Oliva blows my mind. I had never considered that angle.
Yeah, I was taught the first poem in school, and I think that it was part of conditioning me to believe that certain ways of speaking were "unprofessional/bad/annoying." And I'm annoyed that it really existed just to continue the social construct of "this is professional, you cannot be anything but this." Because, it's a social construct that only exists because more people are brought into it. Because they'd rather continue the same antiquated ideas than consider something new. It's sad. Nobody really thought to question WHY such a narrow criteria was viewed as "professional," and why everything else was dismissed so rudely.
That poem brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for showcasing it.
Thank you for sharing that poem!! I got literal, like, chills!
No idea I needed this. The poem was awesome. Very thought provoking.
I remember reading about the men vs women vocal fry thing in an article years and years ago, and the article brought up the same point. I can also remember my mother CONSTANTLY getting on me to cut out the “like”. Funny thing is, I sometimes use it when writing also. It, to me, gives what I’m writing, how shall I put it, a different….flavor?
I’m trying to remember WHY I use it when writing, and I think it’s because it gives the comment/answer/opinion a bit of a sarcastic tone. A sort of pause to indicate my incredulity regarding a certain situation/idea/comment.
I also read a piece somewhere that shared a small study that showed that some of these filler words, particularly "like" often also have meaning in the sentence. It indicates that something is similar to or almost like, which makes the phrase more accurate . "Tom has, like, 5 brothers." is accurate even if Tom has 4 or 6 brothers (or maybe even 7?). But without the like, it is simply non-factual.
The preference for using this might still be gendered -- women and girls receive more criticism when they make errors, so ensuring that the statement retains wiggle room for acceptable amounts of inaccuracy is wise and self-protective.
Thanks - I couldn't remember the details of the study. "Like" is a permanent part of our lexicon and we shouldn't apologize for it.
I met a Dutch nurse and she told me they're taught to drop their voices lower to command trust and respect. Wild that the pitch of my voice affects how much other people can trust and respect me.
*_beatnik snaps, nodding_* Yeahhhhh... Like, I feel that poem, I live that poem. Thank you for sharing it.
Also? Loving your POV on this, as I often enjoy your take on things. Thanks, again for sharing yourself with us. 😁👍🏻💜
I've always used "like" or "um". I've gotten shit for it until I explain living with ADHD feels like my brain is always going to be miles ahead of anything that comes out of my mouth, and the words get tangled in loops so I need filler words to serve as the buffers.
That performance piece...wow. I am utterly blown away
The poet broke my soul. 😢
same
So firstly wow that video clip. Definitely haven't thought of it like that and the delivery was perfection.
Genuinely thought provoking and stop you in your track kind of speech.
Secondly, I loved hearing the "Speech prof" title coming into play, I enjoyed the deconstruction and was nice to see that side of the content
As an enby (?), I'm really glad people around me have never made fun of my voice (in front of my face at least) bc it's so hard to avoid vocal fry when i have a high voice and want to sound more masc 😭😭😭
I've been on T for 2 years now and as my voice has gotten lower and lower, I've gotten more into the vocal fry registers. But since I'm now perceived as a man, regardless of whether I am or not, I've not once had comments about it, not in Dutch nor in English. So that's my experience as a 34yo who has experienced misogyny and its joys for the majority of my life - I still experience it, but only if people discover I am, in fact, trans. And it's especially noticeable, when you've seen both sides of the coin. It's why, regardless of how I'm perceived, I will *always* stand side by side with the individuals on the receiving end of misogyny, because I have experienced it and am often three words of knowledge away from being burdened with it.
Thank you for sharing Melissa Lozada-Olivia with us 😊
I never noticed your vocal fry until you pointed it out. Then I started hearing it instead of listening to what you were saying.
Once it’s heard, you can’t unhear it.
Ok but like- I actually can’t hear it at all? I can hear it in the women’s voices, but I physically can’t in his. I understand the point and think to an extent he has to be right but, idk, it seems much more obvious and I’ll be honest, a little annoying, in the other two clips. (I’m 18 F btw)
I would never EVER tell someone their voice was annoying though, because it’s rude, but I definitely hear it that way.
Wow I really enjoyed the piece at the end!
As someone who grew up in Texas and has a thick Texan accent and speech mannerisms that are not accepted and are openly mocked in my new state of 10 years of Colorado, thank you! I have been hiding my accent for too long and it doesn't feel natural to do so. I think it's time to just be me for a change! ❤
Being mocked by northerners is something else. When I got to college, I had to change some things I said because my Chicago friends thought I was “backwards”. Intelligent but backwards.
They didn’t know until last year that they also say things that I didn’t hear until I met them. The word orange, for example. They would say “ah-renj”.
One of them had a Wisconsin accent that she had picked up, and I mentioned that her accent had changed to where her “o” sound wasn’t the same as when I met her.
I don’t think they felt comfortable when I pointed it out (but they asked, you know - they opened it up with, “We don’t have any accents, do we?” And they looked at me.
I mean, I’m appreciative and I accept it all. I learned Yiddish sayings from my one friend which I love to use. Yiddish has some great catch-all words.
Don’t let people get you down on your accent. We all mask in public, I know. I’m in the south right now but the thickest accent I have ever heard has got to be from the Appalachian region.
I’m a woman with vocal fry, and I hate it when people assume I’m consciously using it. I naturally have a quiet voice so I noticed it shows up then, and goes away when I’m speaking more loudly or get excited/angry and talk passionately.